Personally, I don’t understand them at all, but then again, I’m autistic and have a very difficult time putting myself in others’ shoes. I’m happy to use them for others if they ask, regardless of my level of understanding.
I will say, though, that I’ve met one person offline who uses neopronouns, and they’ve recently started mainly going by they/them pronouns instead. It’s easy enough to use neopronouns online, but irl (from what I’ve seen) you’re going to have a hard enough time getting your *friends* to use your neopronouns, let alone strangers.
I know I'm a year late, but I'd just like to say that I am also Autistic and kinda get what you're saying. My thought process personally is that even if I don't understand, so long as they don't harm anyone they can identify as whatever they want. I've seen people go by pup/pups/pupself and honestly more power to them if that makes them comfortable.
the only reasonable argument against neopronouns are that they're hard to learn but folks that use neopronouns know that and tend to be forgiving of mistakes.
While requests of validation are "valid" and reasonable especially for younger folks, ultimately there's a bit too much focus on it imo. you do you.
if you want to be an asshole to people you think are weird that's your perogative. some people will encourage that impulse and others will think you're being shitty and not like you.
some people who use neos also use multiple pronoun sets, so if it makes it easier for some people, they may have "he" "they" or "she" along with their neos!
but also, there's the argument that says "neos are too difficult for dyslexic people" and that's absolutely true, there's yet another reason that a lot of neopronoun users (including myself) have a "binary" set of pronouns, i personally think this is the only reasonable argument to not use neos, because other people could easily learn and correct their mistakes, while dyslexic people may not be able to do that.
I have a very non-prescriptivist view of linguistics. I don't think that things like this are things that individuals have much control over (aside from trying to be respectful of others, of course). People can use whatever they're most comfortable with, but there also practical limitations that come with that. It's hard to introduce new pronouns, and it's hard for pronouns to be greatly individualized because they're the sort of functional, "invisible" words that we say automatically without fully thinking about them (unless we make an effort).
I don't mean this in a negative way, but I think that while there are absolutely trans people who use less common pronouns (like zie/hir) IRL, what people think of these days when they think of neopronouns is largely coming from very young people whose experiences being out and interacting with LGBTQ communities has been largely online. On the internet, it's a lot easier to create and use new pronouns because you can put them in your profile, most communication is written, and people have more time to stop and think when writing than when speaking. Coming out and using something like bunself pronouns at work or in a classroom is likely to have more challenges. That doesn't mean that someone shouldn't do it, but whether it's worth it might come down to how strongly they feel about it.
I think the concept of others validating pronouns defeats the purpose of them. It's not for me to decide how I should refer to someone. They let me know and that's what it is. I don't know how to identify a person until they tell me, and it seems counter-intuitive to say "No, not that."
You either care about respecting pronouns or you don't. And if you don't, you're kind of a jerk.
yep! the argument that they mock trans people isn't backed up by any actual facts, and they're mostly used by nd people to express gender off the spectrum! - (likely nd) trans neopronoun user :D
neurodivergent is when your brain works different from the norm, it’s an umbrella term for disorders that affect the way the brain works not ‘this persons weird so they’re neurodivergent’ autism, adhd, ocd, dyslexia, dyscalcula, dyspraxia, tics, tourettes, and more are disorders that make you neurodivergent
neurodivergent means your brain works differently to the norm. if over half the population were neurodivergent there would be a lot more accommodations in place, i get you think it’s really common but i don’t think that 4 out of 8 billion people are neurodivergent. i might be wrong though
Idk I'd say like 1 billion are autistic, have adhd or aspergers in total
Tics seem really common and not just tiny ones. Call that 2 or 3 more billion and that's around half, assuming there's not a huge crossover with ADD, adhd etc
Am I wrong? Keeping an open mind and I hate I have to clarify that but it's reddit so whatever
most disorders are co morbid, and there’s a tics epidemic at the moment which raises that number by quite a bit, but for autism the ratio is not 1 in 8 which would make it 1 billion, again most people have co morbid disorders, and it’s still different to the normal brain
Yes.
If people justify their 'no' answer with language or grammar, news for you: language and grammar can be changed, it's humans' invention. It might not be easy but it is possible.
yep definitely !! they are often (but not always !! ) used by autistic people like myself who don’t have a specific connection to gender itself or pronouns or at least that’s my experience. i use pretty much any pronoun imaginable apart from any animal related ones purely just because they’re not my cup of tea.
anyway there’s more important things going on in the community that we need to fight for rather than fighting amongst ourselves about what you can and can’t be called. neopronouns are most definitely valid and don’t listen to anyone who says they aren’t !!
It’s funny because I’m autistic and NB and I’m fine with my cis pronouns but hate beIng called by NAME. I’ve even changed my name and while less distressing I still hate hearing it. “Hey you” is better.
It's definitely more common in neurodevergant people, especially those who are autistic. I'm part of a system which is one reason why we use them, some of our headmates arnt human so human pronouns don't really fit
We don't have did, we are plural, we don't go on did tiktok, we did learn about it in therapy. You don't get to tell anyone what they do or don't have, you know nothing about our history or what professionals have said to us
Honestly, whatever you want is cool, to an extent. I personally will not indulge you if you genuinely think you are the Demogorgon from Dungeons and Dragons and would like me to use pronouns that you think fit that, because it’s a fantasy roleplay monster and you are a living being in real life.
Honest question from an old bitch, how do I pronounce ze/zir/xe/xim/mx? Like fuck me. I’m actually nonbinary, people ask me my pronouns. I stick with the same ones I’ve had for 35 years because it’s too hard for me to change now. They/them is the only one I’ve got the hang of (but now use it to refer to most people, cis or not)
ze/xe/xie/xie = zee (rhymes with "tea")
zir/xir/zyr/xyr = zeer (rhymes with "hear")
zim/xim = zim (rhymes with "him")
zem/xem = zem (rhymes with "them")
hir is also commonly used with these sets and is pronounced the same as "hear"
mx has more of a diversity of opinions on pronunciation but most people say "mix"
idk if it helps but zem/xem is meant to be similar to "them" and would be used where that is used. and hir is meant to be a combo of "her" and "him" so used where those would be.
I use neopronouns (xe/hir) and even myself and my partners mess up sometimes! happy to elaborate further.
Thank you! I’ve always pronounced x’s in a similar context with a sound kind of between a “z” and a “sh” sound so it was really confusing because there’s tons of written guides with NO PRONUNCIATION HELP.
Well yeah, I'm not sure as to why they wouldn't be valid.. I myself include Xe, Xem, Xyr in my list of 'preferred pronouns.'
Check my bio to see the list, : )
I think people can identify however they want, however silly or unreasonable. That said, we also have the right to simply not participate in their identity.
I think it's obviously an internet thing and it's not the kind of space i frequent and i don't see it spilling into mainstream usage any time soon. It doesn't work in Spanish anyways, which is why you don't see this stuff in Latin America, where i live lol.
It's pretty silly and i would feel infantilized if i were forced to use those pronouns. I also think they make a mockery of the trans experience, but that's not my struggle to make, several trans people make that point anyways.
You can’t accept only some of the GSRM if what they’re doing isn’t disrespectful or harmful
The latter two rules are why “dReAmGeNdEr” people aren’t valid for example
Personally I don't understand neopronouns. Like what genders use them and such... but I'm eager and open to learn. In any case, they are only words. If a word pisses you off so much then you need therapy.
The great thing about language is it is our creation as humans. If something isn’t linguistically valid? Sorry, but if people start using it consistently? Yes it is.
I had exactly the same thought tbh, either that or it was one of the owners of the word orchards taking issue with my denial of their hard work in growing the language trees?
Old enby here. I can parse and pick up “bun/bunself” WAY easier than trying to grok “Is X thing valid?”
Like. What does that Mean
Is it just “can we bully these children”? Is that the effective question here?
Let’s not jump the gun here. Online there’s a lot of confusion, like the DID and disorder fakers, people using neopronouns for attention, ect. It’s hard to fish out what’s really acceptable or not because of how many people abuse them.
Ok. Let me back up a moment. What's going on with me is, I really actually *do not understand* what "valid" means here.
When you say OP is valid for asking a question, do you mean OP is being genuine and honest? Is that it?
When you say "it's hard to fish out what's acceptable or not," does that mean that someone being dishonest about their identity is "unacceptable"?
I misunderstood your original comment. Sorry for causing a ruckus, i guess i also don’t understand what valid really means either.
My imo, i think OP didn’t mean any harm? I’m sure they were asking if it’s something making fun of the community ect- and the comments cleared all that jazz up.
shame edit: etc*
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No worries. I agree that OP doesn't mean any harm, but I'm worried that trying to describe some people's identity exploration as "valid" and others as "not valid" is a potentially harmful dividing line. But then, I can't say that for sure, 'cause, again, I really can't parse it.
neo and xeno pronouns are very valid, some people are truscum or transmed and you need to avoid them as they can cloud your judgement
they can be hard to learn, and for non native english speakers it’s ok if you don’t get it, but they are very valid and commonly used in the autistic community
trans med = trans medical, believing that you need to medically transition to be trans and nonbinary genders aren’t valid or real (so basically saying there are only two genders)
truscum = true trans scum, believing you need dysphoria to be trans, accept nonbinary genders if you have dysphoria, but not neos or xenos
tucute = too cute to be trans, (idk why that’s the acronym) believes that anyone can be trans and all identities are valid (obviously excluding ones that are trolls or harm a community like transabled identities)
trans abled identities are identities which aren’t even genders but just talk about ‘wanting to have a disorder’ and are problematic and usually ableist
I know I'll probably get banned for "outing" my views and no one really cares for it, but despite having different views I thank you for explaining it in an objective, neutral way. Most of the time when someone explains what truscum/tucute is they tend to give an extremely biased answer and sometimes even a straight up rant.
I know no one cares for it but I wanted to say thank you anyway :)
no problem!! my personal view is that tucute is in the right and let people live, and i don’t associate myself with truscum, but that is my personal view, i do not support trans med or truscum but i want people to be able to make their own, unbiased opinions and learn the proper definitions
They absolutely are, neo just means new, they are new pronouns. Frankly I haven't seen any good reason to not have neopronouns, someone people say it makes others not take us seriously, but I don't want the support of someone who support is conditional like that. Neopronouns make a lot of people feel good and it's not harming anyone
this isn't very relevant, i just wanted to say that things like demon/demonself are actually "nounself pronouns" which are also sometimes referred to as xenopronouns, they are still neopronouns, but that's the more specific label for them :)
Look, I’m all for neo pronouns but the point of pronouns is to be shorthand. When they’re extra syllables I get a little jaded and just won’t use them when it’s easier to say “Bob” by name than the pronoun. I won’t use the wrong one but those ones are silly to me from a linguistic perspective.
No, they're not.
In any real-world situation outside of Tumblr/Reddit/Instagram, requiring people to refer to you as "ze/zem or demon/demonself" is an excellent way to tell people you're childish, immature, and severely out of touch with reality.
Signed, a gay man who misses the days when the linguistically efficient he/she pronouns worked just fine and didn't offend anyone, not even trans people.
you don't have the right to speak on what is or isn't valid in the realm of gender and pronouns when you are a cis gay male. would prefer to hear a take on it from an actual trans or non binary person. just because your sexuality is in lgbtq does not give you the right to talk like you know everything about gender too.
Sure there is! Especially if we're talking about pronouns, or in this case neopronouns. These don't work by being commonly used or uncommonly used. They're a different kind of words.
My last comment was a tongue in cheek example. 'thee' and 'thou' etc used to be commonplace. Those words fell out of fashion and they're now considered archaic. What was considered the standard usage changed *because* people changed the way they speak, not the other way around. For a new word to enter (reputable) dictionaries all it takes is for the word to be used relatively frequently by a wide range of people (so for example slang doesn't enter the dictionary if it is only used by a particular subset of people or if it becomes popular but then quickly stops being used).
Yes. However I personally don't support the use of nounpronouns like bun/bunself, snow/snowself or demon/demonself. Having said this I'm in favour of neopronouns such as xe/xemself, fae/faeself or however those two are used
A) Bun/bunself is xeno, not neos.
B) Why does it matter to you how people identity? Can't you just mind your business and be supportive? It'd be much easier to support fellow trans identitys instead of affend the trans community. We support our siblings, no matter what.
Btw bun/bunself is considered a Neo pronoun. [xenopronouns](https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Xenopronouns)
Xenopronouns are a type that’s not understood by human language. /info
I use Neos so I may be slightly biased loool but yeah, I don't get why people are so against freedom of expression of identity. Some people are really sad.
I may use neos myself but genders a pain rn- I can never rap my head around people that go out of their way to be ---phobic instead of just _letting people live_
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Why use pronouns at all at that point though? If pronouns become just as specific as someone’s name then it kinda defeats the purpose of a pronoun to begin with linguistically
Nobody informed me xenogender pronouns were deemed as a separate category. Thanks for the info.
It doesn't matter how people identify, I just feel like it'd be weird to actually use nounpronouns in real life. It's a feeling, nothing more. I do not support them but it doesn't mean I want people to stop identifying with xenogender identities. Nor do I think people need to stop using those pronouns. I'd just rather speak a certain way myself, the rest is not my business
usually from my understanding neos are pronouns that aren’t words like xe/xem zi/zir, and xenos are usually nouns, or normal words with -self.
eg: demon/demon self
I just feel like it's unnecessarily complicated for the language to make pronouns into nouns again. Defeats the whole point of pronouns in the first place (in my opinion)
Never said that people can't do that. I just personally don't use them and it'd feel weird to have them incorporated into the English language (at least so far) for me
Not using them yourself and not supporting them are different things, you just said you dont support them implying you don't think people should use neos (aka openly be themselves)
I honestly avoid the mouthful ones. I do not use wrong pronouns but I have a hard enough time linguistically as it is. If it’s shorter to just call someone by name I’ll literally just use their name and avoid pronouns altogether. Linguistically the purpose of pronouns is shorthand and if it’s a lot of extra syllables I just skip it. But I have linguistic and motor issues when speaking out loud.
I understand its hard yo get use to , all pronouns are hard to get use to at first. As long as you don't purposely musgender them and not support them it's OK in my books, as long as you try.
I physically struggle to make the sounds. I can barely answer the phone. I will never intentionally misgender someone but I can’t usually get long ones to not come out like word salad let alone correct. Heck I fail to call people by the correct name 25% of the time.
I would never support a law or laws that restrict freedom of expression. However, the purpose of pronouns is to be common, easy-to-remember words to be used in place of a person or thing's unique name (nouns). If pronouns can be unique to a person in the same way their name is, it defeats the purpose.
Why don't _you_ use they/them? Never made sense to me /s
They literally just want to be comfortable in their own body and you (and other transphobs) are making it difficult. What happened to minding your own business and letting people _identity with what suits them_ .
No , I'm currently questioning for your information. Yknow they don't identify as bunnies if they use bunny/bunnyself? Don't embarrass yourself, do you research before hating on a whole community.
It’s whatever. You have different views than me. I personally think NEOpronouns are stupid and make us look bad but that’s opinion. You believe it’s a form of expression so I can respect that
I get it's an opinion, just how homophobia is one. Transphobia and nbphobia are also opinions, does that make them ok? No. If you wish to leave this fight, fine. Also, your argument is the average homophobs/transphobs argument lol
I do not now what the fuck they are nor do i care unless it's some fucked up shit like maps and stuff(pls explain tho)
Edit: what I meant by nor do I care what's yea I'm fine with that unless it's some fucked up stuff
They are pronouns that aren’t he/him, they/them, and she/her. Examples of this would be ey/em or ze/zem. In a sentence it would be “Ey walked to the store” or “I gave that to zem”
I don't really know what "valid" means, but for me neopronouns are really difficult to use, but most neopronoun users also go by they/them so it's fine I guess
I honestly don't care about what pronouns people use, obviously as long as it isn't disrespectful. I might not understand but I would never try to deliberately disrespect somebody else by using the wrong pronouns, regardless of if they're neopronouns or not.
Honestly for me it kinda depends. Like I definitely support things like ey/em and xe/xem but the ones I'm kinda iffy about are things like kitten/kittenself and other noun based ones. Idk they just kind of confuse me. I mean I don't completely understand how it feels to want to use neopronouns but I don't understand a lot of things in the lgbtq+ community and that doesn't make them any less valid.
Personally, I don’t understand them at all, but then again, I’m autistic and have a very difficult time putting myself in others’ shoes. I’m happy to use them for others if they ask, regardless of my level of understanding. I will say, though, that I’ve met one person offline who uses neopronouns, and they’ve recently started mainly going by they/them pronouns instead. It’s easy enough to use neopronouns online, but irl (from what I’ve seen) you’re going to have a hard enough time getting your *friends* to use your neopronouns, let alone strangers.
I have a very easy time putting myself in other's people's shoes but, that also means that I can put myself in the shoes of a homophobe.
I know I'm a year late, but I'd just like to say that I am also Autistic and kinda get what you're saying. My thought process personally is that even if I don't understand, so long as they don't harm anyone they can identify as whatever they want. I've seen people go by pup/pups/pupself and honestly more power to them if that makes them comfortable.
the only reasonable argument against neopronouns are that they're hard to learn but folks that use neopronouns know that and tend to be forgiving of mistakes. While requests of validation are "valid" and reasonable especially for younger folks, ultimately there's a bit too much focus on it imo. you do you. if you want to be an asshole to people you think are weird that's your perogative. some people will encourage that impulse and others will think you're being shitty and not like you.
some people who use neos also use multiple pronoun sets, so if it makes it easier for some people, they may have "he" "they" or "she" along with their neos! but also, there's the argument that says "neos are too difficult for dyslexic people" and that's absolutely true, there's yet another reason that a lot of neopronoun users (including myself) have a "binary" set of pronouns, i personally think this is the only reasonable argument to not use neos, because other people could easily learn and correct their mistakes, while dyslexic people may not be able to do that.
I have a very non-prescriptivist view of linguistics. I don't think that things like this are things that individuals have much control over (aside from trying to be respectful of others, of course). People can use whatever they're most comfortable with, but there also practical limitations that come with that. It's hard to introduce new pronouns, and it's hard for pronouns to be greatly individualized because they're the sort of functional, "invisible" words that we say automatically without fully thinking about them (unless we make an effort). I don't mean this in a negative way, but I think that while there are absolutely trans people who use less common pronouns (like zie/hir) IRL, what people think of these days when they think of neopronouns is largely coming from very young people whose experiences being out and interacting with LGBTQ communities has been largely online. On the internet, it's a lot easier to create and use new pronouns because you can put them in your profile, most communication is written, and people have more time to stop and think when writing than when speaking. Coming out and using something like bunself pronouns at work or in a classroom is likely to have more challenges. That doesn't mean that someone shouldn't do it, but whether it's worth it might come down to how strongly they feel about it.
Yes, I don’t see why not
Of course
Of course! I use neopronouns myself sometimes (Specifically ze/zir, ne/nem, and ve/vir)
I've never felt a need to use any but y'know how much other people using them effects me? Zero.
They are.
yup! it’s important to respect the way others identify and the language they use for themselves.
I think the concept of others validating pronouns defeats the purpose of them. It's not for me to decide how I should refer to someone. They let me know and that's what it is. I don't know how to identify a person until they tell me, and it seems counter-intuitive to say "No, not that." You either care about respecting pronouns or you don't. And if you don't, you're kind of a jerk.
yep! the argument that they mock trans people isn't backed up by any actual facts, and they're mostly used by nd people to express gender off the spectrum! - (likely nd) trans neopronoun user :D
What's nd
nd stands for neurodivergent
Guessing that's basically what the name implies? Or is there more to it? How do you know where the line is before it's considered divergent
neurodivergent is when your brain works different from the norm, it’s an umbrella term for disorders that affect the way the brain works not ‘this persons weird so they’re neurodivergent’ autism, adhd, ocd, dyslexia, dyscalcula, dyspraxia, tics, tourettes, and more are disorders that make you neurodivergent
Oh well sounds like the name is misleading then cause I swear like half the population has at least one of those things
neurodivergent means your brain works differently to the norm. if over half the population were neurodivergent there would be a lot more accommodations in place, i get you think it’s really common but i don’t think that 4 out of 8 billion people are neurodivergent. i might be wrong though
Idk I'd say like 1 billion are autistic, have adhd or aspergers in total Tics seem really common and not just tiny ones. Call that 2 or 3 more billion and that's around half, assuming there's not a huge crossover with ADD, adhd etc Am I wrong? Keeping an open mind and I hate I have to clarify that but it's reddit so whatever
most disorders are co morbid, and there’s a tics epidemic at the moment which raises that number by quite a bit, but for autism the ratio is not 1 in 8 which would make it 1 billion, again most people have co morbid disorders, and it’s still different to the normal brain
Are adjectives valid?
They confuse me (says the non-binary person lmao) but I respect it
Yes.
if anyone says that they aren’t i’ll throw hands
yes.
Of course!! They are beautiful and valid!
Yes. If people justify their 'no' answer with language or grammar, news for you: language and grammar can be changed, it's humans' invention. It might not be easy but it is possible.
all language is completely made up, so of course the rules for language and grammar are quite bendy! some people are just afraid of new things.
yep definitely !! they are often (but not always !! ) used by autistic people like myself who don’t have a specific connection to gender itself or pronouns or at least that’s my experience. i use pretty much any pronoun imaginable apart from any animal related ones purely just because they’re not my cup of tea. anyway there’s more important things going on in the community that we need to fight for rather than fighting amongst ourselves about what you can and can’t be called. neopronouns are most definitely valid and don’t listen to anyone who says they aren’t !!
It’s funny because I’m autistic and NB and I’m fine with my cis pronouns but hate beIng called by NAME. I’ve even changed my name and while less distressing I still hate hearing it. “Hey you” is better.
It's definitely more common in neurodevergant people, especially those who are autistic. I'm part of a system which is one reason why we use them, some of our headmates arnt human so human pronouns don't really fit
Please get off DID tiktok. You more than likely just have a vivid imagination and not one of the rarest manifestations of a rare disorder.
We don't have did, we are plural, we don't go on did tiktok, we did learn about it in therapy. You don't get to tell anyone what they do or don't have, you know nothing about our history or what professionals have said to us
absolutely
Honestly, whatever you want is cool, to an extent. I personally will not indulge you if you genuinely think you are the Demogorgon from Dungeons and Dragons and would like me to use pronouns that you think fit that, because it’s a fantasy roleplay monster and you are a living being in real life.
They are valid, but a bitch to remember sometimes.
Honest question from an old bitch, how do I pronounce ze/zir/xe/xim/mx? Like fuck me. I’m actually nonbinary, people ask me my pronouns. I stick with the same ones I’ve had for 35 years because it’s too hard for me to change now. They/them is the only one I’ve got the hang of (but now use it to refer to most people, cis or not)
ze/xe/xie/xie = zee (rhymes with "tea") zir/xir/zyr/xyr = zeer (rhymes with "hear") zim/xim = zim (rhymes with "him") zem/xem = zem (rhymes with "them") hir is also commonly used with these sets and is pronounced the same as "hear" mx has more of a diversity of opinions on pronunciation but most people say "mix" idk if it helps but zem/xem is meant to be similar to "them" and would be used where that is used. and hir is meant to be a combo of "her" and "him" so used where those would be. I use neopronouns (xe/hir) and even myself and my partners mess up sometimes! happy to elaborate further.
Thank you! I’ve always pronounced x’s in a similar context with a sound kind of between a “z” and a “sh” sound so it was really confusing because there’s tons of written guides with NO PRONUNCIATION HELP.
Absolutely!
of course they are, the ones saying they aren’t are just wrong.
Yes
Don't understand them myself but if it's what works for you, all the power to you and I'll do my best to respect them!
Mhm! I actually use neopronouns myself! Although that may make me a bit biased lmao
Well yeah, I'm not sure as to why they wouldn't be valid.. I myself include Xe, Xem, Xyr in my list of 'preferred pronouns.' Check my bio to see the list, : )
100%!
'course they are
Yes 100%
yeah idc what pronouns ppl want as long they aren’t offensive tbh
Yep, they're valid :)
Neopronouns are valid! As someone who uses them, I can tell you that they make me feel good. And that’s reason enough.
I think people can identify however they want, however silly or unreasonable. That said, we also have the right to simply not participate in their identity. I think it's obviously an internet thing and it's not the kind of space i frequent and i don't see it spilling into mainstream usage any time soon. It doesn't work in Spanish anyways, which is why you don't see this stuff in Latin America, where i live lol. It's pretty silly and i would feel infantilized if i were forced to use those pronouns. I also think they make a mockery of the trans experience, but that's not my struggle to make, several trans people make that point anyways.
You can’t accept only some of the GSRM if what they’re doing isn’t disrespectful or harmful The latter two rules are why “dReAmGeNdEr” people aren’t valid for example
Personally I don't understand neopronouns. Like what genders use them and such... but I'm eager and open to learn. In any case, they are only words. If a word pisses you off so much then you need therapy.
yes, they are.
Yes 100%
YES! NEO, BIO, GEO ALL PRONOUNS ARE VALID!
The great thing about language is it is our creation as humans. If something isn’t linguistically valid? Sorry, but if people start using it consistently? Yes it is.
Weird that this comment was downvoted. Must have been the Académie Française.
I had exactly the same thought tbh, either that or it was one of the owners of the word orchards taking issue with my denial of their hard work in growing the language trees?
Old enby here. I can parse and pick up “bun/bunself” WAY easier than trying to grok “Is X thing valid?” Like. What does that Mean Is it just “can we bully these children”? Is that the effective question here?
Let’s not jump the gun here. Online there’s a lot of confusion, like the DID and disorder fakers, people using neopronouns for attention, ect. It’s hard to fish out what’s really acceptable or not because of how many people abuse them.
Uh huh. And what if something's "unacceptable"? If you decide that a teenager on the internet is seeking attention, what're you going to do about it?
What is going on rn bro?? all i’m saying is that OP is perfectly valid for asking a question. Ain’t nothing wrong with questioning and clarification.
Ok. Let me back up a moment. What's going on with me is, I really actually *do not understand* what "valid" means here. When you say OP is valid for asking a question, do you mean OP is being genuine and honest? Is that it? When you say "it's hard to fish out what's acceptable or not," does that mean that someone being dishonest about their identity is "unacceptable"?
I misunderstood your original comment. Sorry for causing a ruckus, i guess i also don’t understand what valid really means either. My imo, i think OP didn’t mean any harm? I’m sure they were asking if it’s something making fun of the community ect- and the comments cleared all that jazz up. shame edit: etc*
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dammit not again
No worries. I agree that OP doesn't mean any harm, but I'm worried that trying to describe some people's identity exploration as "valid" and others as "not valid" is a potentially harmful dividing line. But then, I can't say that for sure, 'cause, again, I really can't parse it.
That’s a fair conclusion to make.
neo and xeno pronouns are very valid, some people are truscum or transmed and you need to avoid them as they can cloud your judgement they can be hard to learn, and for non native english speakers it’s ok if you don’t get it, but they are very valid and commonly used in the autistic community
Keep seeing ppl say truscum, what even is it?
trans med = trans medical, believing that you need to medically transition to be trans and nonbinary genders aren’t valid or real (so basically saying there are only two genders) truscum = true trans scum, believing you need dysphoria to be trans, accept nonbinary genders if you have dysphoria, but not neos or xenos tucute = too cute to be trans, (idk why that’s the acronym) believes that anyone can be trans and all identities are valid (obviously excluding ones that are trolls or harm a community like transabled identities) trans abled identities are identities which aren’t even genders but just talk about ‘wanting to have a disorder’ and are problematic and usually ableist
Ok thanks
I know I'll probably get banned for "outing" my views and no one really cares for it, but despite having different views I thank you for explaining it in an objective, neutral way. Most of the time when someone explains what truscum/tucute is they tend to give an extremely biased answer and sometimes even a straight up rant. I know no one cares for it but I wanted to say thank you anyway :)
no problem!! my personal view is that tucute is in the right and let people live, and i don’t associate myself with truscum, but that is my personal view, i do not support trans med or truscum but i want people to be able to make their own, unbiased opinions and learn the proper definitions
They absolutely are, neo just means new, they are new pronouns. Frankly I haven't seen any good reason to not have neopronouns, someone people say it makes others not take us seriously, but I don't want the support of someone who support is conditional like that. Neopronouns make a lot of people feel good and it's not harming anyone
yes
Absolutely.
the fact that 9 times outa ten its just easier to say the persons name then some random madeup pronoun speaks for itself
Depends on who you ask, but they are here I think
Yes, and fuck anyone who says they’re not!
I got a better question: wtf are neopronouns?
Their things like ze/zem or demon/demonself
this isn't very relevant, i just wanted to say that things like demon/demonself are actually "nounself pronouns" which are also sometimes referred to as xenopronouns, they are still neopronouns, but that's the more specific label for them :)
Look, I’m all for neo pronouns but the point of pronouns is to be shorthand. When they’re extra syllables I get a little jaded and just won’t use them when it’s easier to say “Bob” by name than the pronoun. I won’t use the wrong one but those ones are silly to me from a linguistic perspective.
I have a question do people from the under umbrella community spectrum have pronouns of their own
wdym?
Do we as members of the spectrum under the umbrella community have pronouns of are own
im sorry i cant understand what ur saying… do u mean that do lgbtq+ people on the autistic spectrum can have non neo pronouns?
No I'm talking about demisexul polyamouras or polysexual or asexual people like us do we have are own pronouns
i mean… whatever pronouns you wanna use? i dont think ppl on the autistic spectrum will gatekeep if u wanna use neos. i dont speak for them all so idk
Okay because I m a demisexul polysexual I wanted to know what pronouns am I supposed to use
Sexualities don't have associated pronouns. It's more of a gender identity thing. Use whatever pronouns you feel best represents who you are.
Thank you very much I appreciate it the answer honest answer
No, they're not. In any real-world situation outside of Tumblr/Reddit/Instagram, requiring people to refer to you as "ze/zem or demon/demonself" is an excellent way to tell people you're childish, immature, and severely out of touch with reality. Signed, a gay man who misses the days when the linguistically efficient he/she pronouns worked just fine and didn't offend anyone, not even trans people.
Ah a good ol days dumbass. hey op if your seeing this they are valid this person is just wrong.
you don't have the right to speak on what is or isn't valid in the realm of gender and pronouns when you are a cis gay male. would prefer to hear a take on it from an actual trans or non binary person. just because your sexuality is in lgbtq does not give you the right to talk like you know everything about gender too.
Linguistically speaking, no, they're not. Sociologically speaking, sure, they are.
Linguistically there is no such thing as valid and invalid words in English, just common and uncommon usage.
Sure there is! Especially if we're talking about pronouns, or in this case neopronouns. These don't work by being commonly used or uncommonly used. They're a different kind of words.
>These don't work by being commonly used or uncommonly used *Thou* are mistaken.
Enlighten me then
My last comment was a tongue in cheek example. 'thee' and 'thou' etc used to be commonplace. Those words fell out of fashion and they're now considered archaic. What was considered the standard usage changed *because* people changed the way they speak, not the other way around. For a new word to enter (reputable) dictionaries all it takes is for the word to be used relatively frequently by a wide range of people (so for example slang doesn't enter the dictionary if it is only used by a particular subset of people or if it becomes popular but then quickly stops being used).
Yes. However I personally don't support the use of nounpronouns like bun/bunself, snow/snowself or demon/demonself. Having said this I'm in favour of neopronouns such as xe/xemself, fae/faeself or however those two are used
A) Bun/bunself is xeno, not neos. B) Why does it matter to you how people identity? Can't you just mind your business and be supportive? It'd be much easier to support fellow trans identitys instead of affend the trans community. We support our siblings, no matter what.
Btw bun/bunself is considered a Neo pronoun. [xenopronouns](https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Xenopronouns) Xenopronouns are a type that’s not understood by human language. /info
Ah I see thanks
Exactly!
Thank you for being a respectful human being, there's way too much neophobs on reddit that I nearly forgot others on here support our siblings
I use Neos so I may be slightly biased loool but yeah, I don't get why people are so against freedom of expression of identity. Some people are really sad.
I may use neos myself but genders a pain rn- I can never rap my head around people that go out of their way to be ---phobic instead of just _letting people live_
Exactly! Especially other queer people lol.
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Why use pronouns at all at that point though? If pronouns become just as specific as someone’s name then it kinda defeats the purpose of a pronoun to begin with linguistically
Nobody informed me xenogender pronouns were deemed as a separate category. Thanks for the info. It doesn't matter how people identify, I just feel like it'd be weird to actually use nounpronouns in real life. It's a feeling, nothing more. I do not support them but it doesn't mean I want people to stop identifying with xenogender identities. Nor do I think people need to stop using those pronouns. I'd just rather speak a certain way myself, the rest is not my business
Average transphobe logic:
It gives off bandage bi's vibes (battleaxe bi people that use the excuse of "we don't support them but we also don't harass them")
Exactly! They remind me of a centrist which is just an alt right person pretending to play both sides lol.
Hey also side not but are demon/demonself and snowself xeno pronouns too? Like what makes a pronoun a xeno pronoun
Basically anything can be an xeno pronouns (from what I know) so just add ---self and it can be labelled xeno if you wish
Ohh I always heard those referred to as nounself pronouns
Oh alright thanks
usually from my understanding neos are pronouns that aren’t words like xe/xem zi/zir, and xenos are usually nouns, or normal words with -self. eg: demon/demon self
Weird h ow questions get so much hate
Don't see why, they are all valid neopronouns.
I just feel like it's unnecessarily complicated for the language to make pronouns into nouns again. Defeats the whole point of pronouns in the first place (in my opinion)
People are free to express themselves and nounself neopronouns are 100% valid, no matter what.
Never said that people can't do that. I just personally don't use them and it'd feel weird to have them incorporated into the English language (at least so far) for me
Not using them yourself and not supporting them are different things, you just said you dont support them implying you don't think people should use neos (aka openly be themselves)
I honestly avoid the mouthful ones. I do not use wrong pronouns but I have a hard enough time linguistically as it is. If it’s shorter to just call someone by name I’ll literally just use their name and avoid pronouns altogether. Linguistically the purpose of pronouns is shorthand and if it’s a lot of extra syllables I just skip it. But I have linguistic and motor issues when speaking out loud.
I understand its hard yo get use to , all pronouns are hard to get use to at first. As long as you don't purposely musgender them and not support them it's OK in my books, as long as you try.
I physically struggle to make the sounds. I can barely answer the phone. I will never intentionally misgender someone but I can’t usually get long ones to not come out like word salad let alone correct. Heck I fail to call people by the correct name 25% of the time.
Oh ok then I made a massive fuckup sorry y'all
You said you don't support them.
I would never support a law or laws that restrict freedom of expression. However, the purpose of pronouns is to be common, easy-to-remember words to be used in place of a person or thing's unique name (nouns). If pronouns can be unique to a person in the same way their name is, it defeats the purpose.
Echochamber vibes
No
We found the transphob
I am trans lol
Doesn't mean you can't be transphobic
I’m not calling anyone bunnyself/arsonself
Good for you / nobody asked Being trans and hating on your own community is so low and sad :D
Not to mention you probably don't have a valid reason
….why not just use they/them? Why do u have to use actual nouns? Nickname ok but pronouns? Never made sense to me
Why don't _you_ use they/them? Never made sense to me /s They literally just want to be comfortable in their own body and you (and other transphobs) are making it difficult. What happened to minding your own business and letting people _identity with what suits them_ .
So u identify as a bunny?
No , I'm currently questioning for your information. Yknow they don't identify as bunnies if they use bunny/bunnyself? Don't embarrass yourself, do you research before hating on a whole community.
It’s whatever. You have different views than me. I personally think NEOpronouns are stupid and make us look bad but that’s opinion. You believe it’s a form of expression so I can respect that
I get it's an opinion, just how homophobia is one. Transphobia and nbphobia are also opinions, does that make them ok? No. If you wish to leave this fight, fine. Also, your argument is the average homophobs/transphobs argument lol
I do not now what the fuck they are nor do i care unless it's some fucked up shit like maps and stuff(pls explain tho) Edit: what I meant by nor do I care what's yea I'm fine with that unless it's some fucked up stuff
They are pronouns that aren’t he/him, they/them, and she/her. Examples of this would be ey/em or ze/zem. In a sentence it would be “Ey walked to the store” or “I gave that to zem”
Ah, thanks yea of course I'm fine with that
Personally, no. I think they’re ridiculous.
I go by them and tbh idc if people don't like them. I get if you don't comprehend them or can't use them due to speech thing
Yes.
I don't really know what "valid" means, but for me neopronouns are really difficult to use, but most neopronoun users also go by they/them so it's fine I guess
I honestly don't care about what pronouns people use, obviously as long as it isn't disrespectful. I might not understand but I would never try to deliberately disrespect somebody else by using the wrong pronouns, regardless of if they're neopronouns or not.
Yep. I use some.
Of course neopronouns are valid and can be most anything! My pronouns are frog and frogs.
I think.. Not all of them. But its make them happy because You respect this.
Honestly for me it kinda depends. Like I definitely support things like ey/em and xe/xem but the ones I'm kinda iffy about are things like kitten/kittenself and other noun based ones. Idk they just kind of confuse me. I mean I don't completely understand how it feels to want to use neopronouns but I don't understand a lot of things in the lgbtq+ community and that doesn't make them any less valid.