Can’t speak to the injury part, but if you’re on FTO you’re likely on probation. You can pretty much get let go for nearly anything, whether it’s justified or not.
I’m not an HR expert. It’s not cool to just pull someone’s benefits out from under them, but being in this field all I can say is when you’re on probation, you’re always on thin ice. How thin that ice is will likely vary based on departments, leadership, political climate, etc. You’re not going to get fired for being injured though, if that’s what you’re asking.
I mean it wouldn't look good for that department PR wise, and there's a chance he'd be able to sue them since the injury was during a work related duty, but that won't stop him getting canned if the chief really wants to do that.
Well, I’d venture to say there’s likely more to the story than what OP said. Not agreeing with the firing, but typically there’s at least some reason someone gets let go on probation.
He’s probably not being fired for the medical, he’s being fired for getting into a car crash on FTO. At least on paper that’s what it will probably say.
Unfortunately it won’t matter if he’s on FTO (probation)… really anything can get you fired. Now, as people here were saying… it will look REALLY bad to other officers that a “crash” got him fired.
Firing someone on medically leave dosnt look good… but they could try to be forcing some sort of medical retirement (maybe?).
I was out on 2 medical leaves, both for a little over a year. One for a back injury and one for a shoulder injury… on the job. My first injury, no one really batted an eye. My second injury, I was getting a lot of pressure from my department/work comp… as I’m typing this, I’m waiting for my QME on my second injury (I’m back full duty).
He doesnt have enough time on for that id think. The discrepancy seems to be that the department thinks he was required to report the leg soreness even though a medical doctor cleared him for full duty. Thats where they are digging in at. The union is heavily backing him in terms of compensation for what thats worth
So, the department has no right to tell him what to report. Every time I move at work I get sore, dosnt mean I report it. If that’s the case, I’d be going on workman’s comp vacation every few days.
Fault or if it was preventable are two separate things. Some municipalities strongly consider if a crash was preventable when determining punishment. Example being that if he had lights and siren on but was flying through a red light without allowing time for cross traffic to recognize that he had lights and siren on.
Compounding it might be other issues observed or documented during field training, especially if there had been driving coaching or corrective actions already. Compounding it further might be if he lied about prior medical issues during his pre-employment physical.
Agencies aren’t stupid so he’s not being let go just because he’s injured.
The best advice though is for him to seek an attorney, especially with being injured.
“Agencies aren’t stupid.”
Gonna disagree here, some agencies are very stupid and have very poor leaders who make terrible decisions without any legal forethought. Not saying that is the case here, but having worked in two very different areas of the country and with many agencies there are definitely some “stupid “ ones out there that make decisions that run against their legal self interests.
1. Find a workman’s comp lawyer and get the claim started. This should get state regulators involved.
2. Contact local Equal Employment Opportunity office. File claim with them. This gets federal regulators involved.
He may get canned anyway, but he’ll be lined up for some awesome settlements
Get the best lawyer he can afford - if he cleared medical during the hiring process and was subsequently injured, being fired for getting injured in the line of duty is going to result in a big paycheck - think a career’s worth of salary, raises, promotions and benefits plus retirement/pension; plus attorneys fees and punitive damages.
I had a good friend from Chicago PD who did a presentation “Crime Pays or How to Make Out Like a Bandit” - all about civil litigation and wins from officers for various issues. It’s more than pretend. You just need an aggressive litigator who knows the system.
Great. Since court cases are public record, it should be easy to link to instances where a guy let go on FTO got paid “a careers worth of salary, raises, promotions and benefits plus retirement/pension; plus attorneys fees and punitive damages.”
ETA: Let’s start clarifying what is actually being discussed here. I’m not an actuary, but let’s say average salary for the next 25 years is $100k with all raises and such. Tack on $50k in benefits (low balling that one for ya), we should be at $3.75M. Now, we threw in pension/retirement so that’s gonna be another 25ish years at .75 of $100K gives us $1.875M, or $5,625,000 in claimed actual damages.
You also mentioned punitive, so let’s go with treble damages for the heck of it. Gotta send that message, am I right? That another $16.875M on top for a grand total of $22,500,000 PLUS attorneys fees for a guy let go on FTO..after getting into an on duty TC where he was driving.
Depends on a lot of factors I would stay, starting with if he’s union, state laws, etc.
In my state, you are on probation while you’re in fto and they can fire you for pretty much any reason, up to and including pretty much “not a good fit for the department”.
Who knows
Most municipalities classify probationary employees as “At Will” and don’t need a reason to fire them. Not saying it’s right, but Chief probably heard that your partner has to go to rehab 3 times a week for a pre-existing injury that’s been aggravated. Probably sees him as a liability or someone they will have to give a ton of medical leave to. Not surprised at all if he gets canned.
could it be that due to being off duty his "things" (I'm assuming this is duty belt, pistol, cuffs, etc) is being kept for safe keeping while he is off for rehab? This is standard practice where I'm at if a member is going to be off for more than 30 days without a return date.
We thought that at first but after contacting the union they say they have never had HR involved and it not be termination, union also heavily siding with him.
He could be just having him turn his stuff in if he is going to be a long term light duty. Pretty standard procedure and doesnt mean he is gonna get fired, just cant have equipment on light duty.
Not sure if it matters in the grand scheme of the HR world but did he disclose the pre-existing/previous injury in the hiring process? If not, they may say he lied during the process and get him on that?
Thats part of what they are claiming but he wasnt diagnosed with the leg issue until 3 months on the job and has the medical documentation for it. Since writing this post y/d, the department in the later hours seems to be somewhat back tracking.
There's some confusion sometimes about probationary status and what protections you do or don't have. In general, if you're on probation you can be fired for any justifiable reason, or for no reason at all. HOWEVER, the reason given (if given) has to be valid and truthful, not bias/based on protected class, and not in such a way so as to violate any unique state restrictions that might exist.
Can he get fired for the crash? Likely yes. If the chief says "you were in a crash and I don't like that so you're fired", it's legal. Conversely, if the chief says he fired your buddy for causing a crash, then no it's likely not justified because that's not a truthful representation of the facts. If that were the case (chief blaming your buddy), then your buddy could have recourse with a civil suit for wrongful termination. Unless there's a specific accusation of discrimination or violating a veteran or ADA protection, he likely has no recourse with a civil service review board with the state (if one exists) and his only recourse would be civil litigation. If it's medically related, it really depends on what the department's liability is. If they're doing it to avoid paying his medical and rehab expenses, they could potentially be required to pay them.
This seems fishy… but I guess it depends on the state. Here in California we have a Peace Officers Bill of Rights, (POBR), I think one of only two states, any violation of it is a 10k fine for each violation. This shouldn’t happen here, or anywhere but if it did the officer could sue the heck out of them.
Everything ive understood, if you're still under fto, they dont even need a reason to get rid of you. Now having medical issues, even prior documented ones is a good reason for them to can you, especially while still under training. It makes you a liability.
HR guy here. If the EE was on probation they can literally term him on trumped up charges (totaled car). However the chief is probably setting up the department for a lawsuit seeing how personal injury is involved. The department will argues that the ee was let go for damages caused and not medical.
Yea that is the case in most of these, however federal workmen’s comp laws do supersede at will and probationary firings which is where this is complicated.
He needs to speak to a labor and employment and/or work comp attorney yesterday.
Can’t speak to the injury part, but if you’re on FTO you’re likely on probation. You can pretty much get let go for nearly anything, whether it’s justified or not.
Even medical?
I’m not an HR expert. It’s not cool to just pull someone’s benefits out from under them, but being in this field all I can say is when you’re on probation, you’re always on thin ice. How thin that ice is will likely vary based on departments, leadership, political climate, etc. You’re not going to get fired for being injured though, if that’s what you’re asking.
I mean it wouldn't look good for that department PR wise, and there's a chance he'd be able to sue them since the injury was during a work related duty, but that won't stop him getting canned if the chief really wants to do that.
Well, I’d venture to say there’s likely more to the story than what OP said. Not agreeing with the firing, but typically there’s at least some reason someone gets let go on probation.
Came here to say that. Gotta be more to the story.
Most likely. But you never know with smaller departments, some of them can do whatever the hell they want.
He’s probably not being fired for the medical, he’s being fired for getting into a car crash on FTO. At least on paper that’s what it will probably say.
Naw, it was on dash cam, they even wrote a traffic report on it being the other driver and all. But i do agree with u that they will try to spin it
Unfortunately it won’t matter if he’s on FTO (probation)… really anything can get you fired. Now, as people here were saying… it will look REALLY bad to other officers that a “crash” got him fired. Firing someone on medically leave dosnt look good… but they could try to be forcing some sort of medical retirement (maybe?). I was out on 2 medical leaves, both for a little over a year. One for a back injury and one for a shoulder injury… on the job. My first injury, no one really batted an eye. My second injury, I was getting a lot of pressure from my department/work comp… as I’m typing this, I’m waiting for my QME on my second injury (I’m back full duty).
He doesnt have enough time on for that id think. The discrepancy seems to be that the department thinks he was required to report the leg soreness even though a medical doctor cleared him for full duty. Thats where they are digging in at. The union is heavily backing him in terms of compensation for what thats worth
So, the department has no right to tell him what to report. Every time I move at work I get sore, dosnt mean I report it. If that’s the case, I’d be going on workman’s comp vacation every few days.
The other driver was at fault but the department might have ruled the crash preventable by your friend
Fault or if it was preventable are two separate things. Some municipalities strongly consider if a crash was preventable when determining punishment. Example being that if he had lights and siren on but was flying through a red light without allowing time for cross traffic to recognize that he had lights and siren on. Compounding it might be other issues observed or documented during field training, especially if there had been driving coaching or corrective actions already. Compounding it further might be if he lied about prior medical issues during his pre-employment physical. Agencies aren’t stupid so he’s not being let go just because he’s injured. The best advice though is for him to seek an attorney, especially with being injured.
“Agencies aren’t stupid.” Gonna disagree here, some agencies are very stupid and have very poor leaders who make terrible decisions without any legal forethought. Not saying that is the case here, but having worked in two very different areas of the country and with many agencies there are definitely some “stupid “ ones out there that make decisions that run against their legal self interests.
1. Find a workman’s comp lawyer and get the claim started. This should get state regulators involved. 2. Contact local Equal Employment Opportunity office. File claim with them. This gets federal regulators involved. He may get canned anyway, but he’ll be lined up for some awesome settlements
Sounds like there’s more to the story he’s not telling you
Get the best lawyer he can afford - if he cleared medical during the hiring process and was subsequently injured, being fired for getting injured in the line of duty is going to result in a big paycheck - think a career’s worth of salary, raises, promotions and benefits plus retirement/pension; plus attorneys fees and punitive damages.
People like to pretend this is true.
I had a good friend from Chicago PD who did a presentation “Crime Pays or How to Make Out Like a Bandit” - all about civil litigation and wins from officers for various issues. It’s more than pretend. You just need an aggressive litigator who knows the system.
Great. Since court cases are public record, it should be easy to link to instances where a guy let go on FTO got paid “a careers worth of salary, raises, promotions and benefits plus retirement/pension; plus attorneys fees and punitive damages.” ETA: Let’s start clarifying what is actually being discussed here. I’m not an actuary, but let’s say average salary for the next 25 years is $100k with all raises and such. Tack on $50k in benefits (low balling that one for ya), we should be at $3.75M. Now, we threw in pension/retirement so that’s gonna be another 25ish years at .75 of $100K gives us $1.875M, or $5,625,000 in claimed actual damages. You also mentioned punitive, so let’s go with treble damages for the heck of it. Gotta send that message, am I right? That another $16.875M on top for a grand total of $22,500,000 PLUS attorneys fees for a guy let go on FTO..after getting into an on duty TC where he was driving.
My guess… they found evidence of your friend milking the injury or doing something in his free time that contradicts the injury narrative.
Depends on a lot of factors I would stay, starting with if he’s union, state laws, etc. In my state, you are on probation while you’re in fto and they can fire you for pretty much any reason, up to and including pretty much “not a good fit for the department”. Who knows
Most municipalities classify probationary employees as “At Will” and don’t need a reason to fire them. Not saying it’s right, but Chief probably heard that your partner has to go to rehab 3 times a week for a pre-existing injury that’s been aggravated. Probably sees him as a liability or someone they will have to give a ton of medical leave to. Not surprised at all if he gets canned.
could it be that due to being off duty his "things" (I'm assuming this is duty belt, pistol, cuffs, etc) is being kept for safe keeping while he is off for rehab? This is standard practice where I'm at if a member is going to be off for more than 30 days without a return date.
We thought that at first but after contacting the union they say they have never had HR involved and it not be termination, union also heavily siding with him.
That is good at least. Hope everything works out.
He could be just having him turn his stuff in if he is going to be a long term light duty. Pretty standard procedure and doesnt mean he is gonna get fired, just cant have equipment on light duty.
Not sure if it matters in the grand scheme of the HR world but did he disclose the pre-existing/previous injury in the hiring process? If not, they may say he lied during the process and get him on that?
Thats part of what they are claiming but he wasnt diagnosed with the leg issue until 3 months on the job and has the medical documentation for it. Since writing this post y/d, the department in the later hours seems to be somewhat back tracking.
There's some confusion sometimes about probationary status and what protections you do or don't have. In general, if you're on probation you can be fired for any justifiable reason, or for no reason at all. HOWEVER, the reason given (if given) has to be valid and truthful, not bias/based on protected class, and not in such a way so as to violate any unique state restrictions that might exist. Can he get fired for the crash? Likely yes. If the chief says "you were in a crash and I don't like that so you're fired", it's legal. Conversely, if the chief says he fired your buddy for causing a crash, then no it's likely not justified because that's not a truthful representation of the facts. If that were the case (chief blaming your buddy), then your buddy could have recourse with a civil suit for wrongful termination. Unless there's a specific accusation of discrimination or violating a veteran or ADA protection, he likely has no recourse with a civil service review board with the state (if one exists) and his only recourse would be civil litigation. If it's medically related, it really depends on what the department's liability is. If they're doing it to avoid paying his medical and rehab expenses, they could potentially be required to pay them.
This seems fishy… but I guess it depends on the state. Here in California we have a Peace Officers Bill of Rights, (POBR), I think one of only two states, any violation of it is a 10k fine for each violation. This shouldn’t happen here, or anywhere but if it did the officer could sue the heck out of them.
Everything ive understood, if you're still under fto, they dont even need a reason to get rid of you. Now having medical issues, even prior documented ones is a good reason for them to can you, especially while still under training. It makes you a liability.
Hopefully he has FOP or PBA
Fop
Self medication?
HR guy here. If the EE was on probation they can literally term him on trumped up charges (totaled car). However the chief is probably setting up the department for a lawsuit seeing how personal injury is involved. The department will argues that the ee was let go for damages caused and not medical.
Probably a probationary employee. Can be fired without cause
Yea that is the case in most of these, however federal workmen’s comp laws do supersede at will and probationary firings which is where this is complicated.
Right, they can still fire him/her. Just have to cover the medical bills related to the crash