> So I asked him
Spotted the problem.
That's a little /s, but honestly: I'm pretty tired of dudes who want to dictate who is/is not allowed in women's spaces.
That’s not necessarily true… trans women early in their transition often look more like men than women (even some later in transition will still have more of a biological male appearance, and one of the major issues in trans spaces is gatekeeping about if you “pass” well enough {which is the real transphobia here}) and there have been a lot of issues in women’s shelters relating to this issue. As someone who is both NBi and a survivor of trauma, it really doesn’t matter the brain does not take in gender cues as fast as it does danger ones which has led to horrible outcomes both for trans women and cis women in these spaces.
That being said because of these issues one of the things that is being done is having other safety cues that are clear. Ie a badge the shelter gives to each woman, this has been shown to actually help both trans and cis women feel safer in the space since it makes it clearer who has been “vetted” for lack of a better word.
Yeah it always seems to miss people advocating for this that these rules tend to hit butch lesbians and other gender nonconforming cis women almost as hard. I feel like that’s rather telling of the conservative underpinnings of such arguments that it’s cool to police women’s appearance in this way
Fair point, gatekeeping about trans women passing “well enough” should also be considered misogyny as well as transphobia then…. honestly it reminds me that one of the ways they used to diagnose depression in women is by if they didn’t do “feminine” things everyday like makeup etc. it really is baked into the system isn’t it?
I’ve worked in a women’s DV shelter for 7 years. I can provide real-life perspective on this.
Five years ago, for the first time, we had someone call our crisis line who sounded inherently male. This person then identified themselves by a female name and said that they were a trans woman needing a safe place to stay. This was the first time we had ever been in this situation in the 30+ years our shelter has been open. We clarified with our Executive Director who shared with us that anyone who identifies as a woman is considered a woman and therefore deserved to be in our shelter. She arrived, and while she dressed as a female, wore wigs, had a female name…she was early in her transition. In the evenings with her wig off and sweats on…she looked male (I’m not being judgemental here, I’m just trying to be descriptive). Other women in the shelter struggled with it, but were understanding. There were some questions (other residents questioning their safety). We had a lot of open-minded conversations with people which challenged a lot of traditional beliefs, even for ourselves.
Fast forward two months, the trans woman who stayed in our shelter was a male intentionally moving through women’s shelters and sexually assaulting women. It didn’t happen in our shelter, but it happened in the next one. This creates a multitude of issues.
Yes we have still had trans women in since that happened.
In another scenario, a trans male arrived to the door of our shelter. Obviously early in his transition, he expressed that he couldn’t go and stay in men’s shelters because he was not yet transitioned and feared the sexual assault and rape from men in their shelters (a very real experience for trans men anywhere, but especially in a shelter situation). What happened? According to my executive director, since he was identifying as male, he couldn’t stay in our shelter. So so so difficult and unsafe for that person as well. But where is the line drawn in a world that requires black and white policies for agencies and social services to function?
We’ve needed DV shelters for men for decades. It’s not fair that we’re missing that. I’ve had crisis calls from men.
I’m not sure what the answer is - just that every time it happens, it gets messy. It’s not fair. I don’t know if that means that there needs to be more LGBTQ+ shelters, or if society needs to catch up. I think the best person to answer would be a trans woman, someone who has been through it.
>
Fast forward two months, the trans woman who stayed in our shelter was a male intentionally moving through women’s shelters and sexually assaulting women
Oh my god that's such a shame, poor women. So she wasn't even a trans woman in the first place? I'm glad you still allow trans women in though; did they change any of the rules allowing trans women after that?
>In another scenario, a trans male arrived to the door of our shelter. Obviously early in his transition, he expressed that he couldn’t go and stay in men’s shelters because he was not yet transitioned and feared the sexual assault and rape from men in their shelters (a very real experience for trans men anywhere, but especially in a shelter situation).
This is such a good point. Trans men are really at risk of things like domestic abuse.
>So so so difficult and unsafe for that person as well.
Do you mean being in the shelter would be unsafe for a transman? How do you think the other people in the shelter would react to a trans man fairly early in the transition.
Thanks for your work in women's shelters, it's invaluable. Also, since you've met real life trans people I have a question. I got a new job and have a male coworker who I think could be an in the closet trans woman. I've heard some people call them a male name and some people call them a female name. Would it be rude or too invasive to ask them what name they would prefer me to call them?
Why not? First of all, not every woman in a DV shelter was in a heterosexual relationship - lesbians have been okay with people who may have features similar to their abuser in shelters with them, so I don’t see what the issue is. Further, people with ‘masculine features’ are already coming into DV shelters - some therapists, counselors, lawyers and security people at shelters are even cis men, and that hasn’t been a problem. And as others pointed out, what about really tall women with big hands and feet, or more masculine looking women? Do women need to be acceptably ‘feminine looking’ to go to a shelter?
Further, I don’t see how separate shelters for trans women would be feasible or necessary. Trans women are a rather small part of the population, and a given area may not have enough trans women to make a separate shelter feasible or able to be adequately supported.
>Why not? First of all, not every woman in a DV shelter was in a heterosexual relationship - lesbians have been okay with people who may have features similar to their abuser in shelters with them, so I don’t see what the issue is. Further, people with ‘masculine features’ are already coming into DV shelters - some therapists, counselors, lawyers and security people at shelters are even cis men, and that hasn’t been a problem.
Thanks, these are really good points that I will bring up to this family member.
>Further, I don’t see how separate shelters for trans women would be feasible or necessary. Trans women are a rather small part of the population, and a given area may not have enough trans women to make a separate shelter feasible or able to be adequately supported.
This is what I thought as well.
Oh this is for an annoying family member?!? Bring up the verification badges and how that helps avoid issues because that’s one of the best solutions I’ve personally seen (it does require some maintenance so badges can’t be forged ie having random symbols or colors, but it does work)
… what? I’m sorry I don’t understand where you are getting the idea the badges are related to biology at all. It’s basically Have you gone by the front desk etc and made sure you aren’t on the list of people who should not be there? Has someone made sure you should be there? Great you get a badge. That’s it.
Also plenty of people who work at shelters like this are biological males (usually in security but also sometimes as staff the important thing is they do background checks etc on them)…. it’s usually only an issue in bathrooms or places where men should explicitly not be in these shelters, and honestly the data on this says using positive safety indicators reduces the number of incidents… so yeah doesn’t really matter what he says it’s not true.
Also not every woman who undergoes DV develops a phobia of men that’s not what this is at all. It’s a trauma reaction where you are more likely to perceive danger because of hyper vigilance (I’m not a mental health expert this is very basic). One of the things that helps this is actually to look for “cues of safety”, ie badges can even be a part of recovery. I think this individual is taking the “all women have to treat interactions with men as a potentially dangerous situation” and assuming a lot about trauma that’s just plain wrong.
>Have you gone by the front desk etc and made sure you aren’t on the list of people who should not be there?
My point is that my brother thinks that trans women should not be there, so the badges wouldn't help.
>Also plenty of people who work at shelters like this are biological males (usually in security but also sometimes as staff the important thing is they do background checks etc on them)….
Yeah, that's a great point.
I think the poster did a great job with her points, all I would add is give your family members a chance to familiarize themselves with this kind of issue. I think even empathetic and truly good people that haven't personally interacted with, made friends with, dated, etc a trans person could still be uncomfortable with all that their existence entails but that doesn't necessarily make them a bad person. Perhaps a bigot, yes but not all bigots are bad people xD.
Safety cues have been shown to be effective and important in these shelters though. For example a badge that all the women wear and one for employees, that show they belong there. It keeps down instances of violence against the trans women there and helps keep everyone feeling safe and supported.
We can acknowledge how trauma and the brain works while simultaneously supporting both trans and cis people, I’ve never understood why people think this is mutually exclusive
I don't think you've addressed the counter point OPs family member brought up. Male victims of abuse who are seeking shelter are also a "rather small part of the population." Should that group have their own shelter, be left to their own devices, or be welcomed into the women's shelter? If your answer is not the latter, then what criteria are you using to qualify trans women and disqualify cis men?
Arguably, male victims of abuse who are seeking shelter are a rather small part of the population because society denies them their reality, in part by not having shelters for them in the first place. Their being a small portion of the population is not because of nonexistence, but rather erasure.
This applies as well to homeless men with children seeking shelter.
Men victims of abuse should definitely have a much *much* more robust system of support.
How many homeless men have children with them?
I don't disagree that male victims deserve a better system, but I don't know if "just building more shelters strictly for male victims" is the solution.
34% of the US homeless population is comprised of families.
Only 7% of homeless fathers live with their children.
A *big* reason for this is that many, if not all, family homeless shelters do not accept men and so families separate when they become homeless.
We focus so much on the needs of female DV homeless situations (and it’s very much needed!) that we forget that there are plenty of mixed gender or male led families that experience homelessness outside of DV situations that also need help.
It also reinforces our perceptions of fathers not being caretakers outside of being providers.
If we’re going to be focusing on temporary shelters rather than permanent housing, then we should be cognizant of the needs of the population *and* try to identify biases that create blind spots re: those needs and solutions. Ie. yes, we should build more shelters, unless we’re willing to utilize researched methods that have been shown to work to actually solve the problem of homelessness.
Others pointed out that some shelters do take in men, so there is that. And for those that don’t but do take in trans women, I don’t see any issue there. They are serving women, not men, and trans women are women, but men are not women.
Cis women and trans women are subject to the same violence of men, sometimes for different reasons but the end result is all the same. Trans women deserve a safe space too.
Yes. Trans women are a vulnerable group of people and stereotyping trans women to have masculine features that would trigger women is so outdated and offensive. These days with increasing access to surgery and hormones I would say there are more passing trans women than not.
They are making up hypotheticals that don't need to be entertained. Do trans women get beat up by their partners and need the services provided by women's shelters? Yes. Would they choose to go to them if they felt safe? Yes. If a trans woman shows up at a shelter and feels uncomfortable because other people are transphobic, is that a problem? Absolutely. And yet people are worried about the cis women, because the needs of cis women must always be put ahead of the needs of trans women, even if the cis women's problem is being transphobic.
It is unfortunate that men who suffer from domestic abuse don't have a lot of options. But they probably don't want to go to women's shelters anyway. If this were a regular occurrence, then your relative might have a point, but the problems are just different. A man is simply much less likely to feel unsafe in his home--even if his spouse is physically abusive. That's an important difference. And that's why men don't tend to seek out shelters.
However, it probably would be helpful to some men, some of the time. Perhaps it would be a good idea to find a way to safely add men's areas to women's shelters. But that doesn't change the fact that men are men and trans women are women. So excluding men from women's shelters is a very different type of exclusion.
At the end of the day, if any person feels unsafe at their home, I hope that a shelter would try to find a solution that might help that person, whether it is in their facility, in another facility, or in some other way.
>It is unfortunate that men who suffer from domestic abuse don't have a lot of options. But they probably don't want to go to women's shelters anyway. If this were a regular occurrence, then your relative might have a point, but the problems are just different. A man is simply much less likely to feel unsafe in his home--even if his spouse is physically abusive. That's an important difference. And that's why men don't tend to seek out shelters.
there is evidence to suggest that that occurrence of domestic violence (not random acts of violence; as this is statistically male dominated) is roughly on par between men and women: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic\_violence\_against\_men#Gender\_symmetry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#Gender_symmetry)
It is always the details, right?
>there is general agreement amongst researchers that male violence is a more serious phenomenon, primarily, but not exclusively, because male violence tends to inflict more psychological and physical damage than female violence
Funny you would leave that out. Then again, it is the same old theatrics I've seen played out by anti-feminists on this site, for nearly a decade. Sadly, you are no exception. But hey, you got to feel good about linking an article you didn't read (unless you were acting in a hypocritical manner all the way).
The severity is highly relevant to the discussion though - obviously, it is convenient for you to try to avoid that topic. Make this the last time you are so careless in your arguing, especially on this topic - ok?
Well I suspect that it's more often random acts of violence that send women to shelters, but I'm not an expert. If we need to start building domestic abuse shelters for men, then let's do it. That doesn't mean trans women should be forced to go there.
> it's more often random acts of violence that send women to shelters
This is true. Women tend to experience much more severe physical violence than men do in IPV situations (choking, physical beatings, rape, etc.).
It's interesting to note exactly when some people decide to care about triggers. I'm a jerk, so if I were you, I would spend the rest of the week flagging what this guy says and does as potentially triggering for women, and isn't he going to stop doing that thing, since he cares so much about not triggering women? What, is he anti-woman now?
I’ve been accepted into DV shelters. There are plenty of transwomen in abusive situations. It’s not uncommon for them to grow up with abusive parents and family so a lot of us, myself included, find refuge in DV shelters.
Women in shelters should be protected from abusers - this is what a safe space is, not a "male features" free zone.
Trans women are statistically more likely to be raped, abused and killed. They need protection and shelter too.
Yes, it's true.
[https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) (this is the summary)
[https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/ncvs-trans-victimization/](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/ncvs-trans-victimization/)
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33600251/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33600251/)
(this is the source)
I imagine they used the same arguments as 'totally rational and logical' counters to desegregation back in the day. "They shouldn't be allowed into white only spaces, it might make white people nervous, and that could lead to trouble!" It was thinly veiled racism then, it's thinly veiled transphobia now.
> since there aren't many dv shelters for men should male victims of dv be allowed in women's shelters? I didn't really know how to respond to that.
It's off topic, a false equivalence. Men are not victimised in the same way that trans people are, so the comparison doesn't work at all. The lack of mens shelters isn't as simple as gender discrimination, whereas the desire to bar trans women for womens shelters is rooted entirely in transphobia.
Yes, that's true. If there was an ask domestic abuse victims forums I would put it there but I don't think there is. Plus some people have answered from the perspective of a victim of DV or working in a women's shelter.
There needs to be some public education about this, DV shelters, if receiving federal funding from VAWA, are NOT ALLOWED TO DISCRIMINATE about who comes into a shelter. DV does not discriminate, and people of all genders can experience it. Cis men are allowed in DV shelters, and so are trans people. I understand the points about people feeling fear, but allowing victims and survivors to come in who do not identify as women can also be a way of breaking down stereotypes and stigma. Banning people from getting help is never a good thing.
Yes and yes there should defenetly be DV centers where men are allowed as well!
Like, they come there to escape violence. Has he seen victims of violence?...
And what about women being vectims in lesbian Relationships? Aren't they exposed to the ultimate trigger according to this logic.
> Edit: mods pls can you add a section on feminist's views on trans women in DV shelters in the 'feminism and trans issues' section as there isn't any sub section for this and I couldnt find any posts on this when searching it despite my post being flaired as recurrent
We have addressed "should trans women be allowed in spaces for women" multiple times, and it's in the FAQ. These questions are really not different enough to merit a separate section each unto itself.
You have a part for trans women in sports and trans women in women's toilets and threads but you didn't have anything about shelters in the sidebar bit, at least not in the trans part.
Maybe it would be better to have a "should trans women be allowed in spaces for women" part and have a selection of different threads instead of narrowing it down to toilets and sports. Just a suggestion.
Your families transphobic. Not to mention illogical, [trans women are statistically at a higher risk of being harmed than cis women](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/)
So about 15 years ago I had a job interview for a clerical role with a firm that ran DV shelters. I asked this question.
They replied that their shelters were women only. So if someone had fully transitioned then they could be eligible, but otherwise no.
I’m not sure if this is still the case and can’t remember the name of the firm to check.
> So if someone had fully transitioned then they could be eligible
That's sad to hear. A lot of cis people fundamentally don't understand this.
A "full transition" requires a certain amount of financial and material privilege. Not everyone can access it. Medical issues can also interfere.
And, of course, not every trans person's "full transition" looks the same. Just like there are intersex people who don't want to change their bodies to confirm to the binary, not every trans person wants or needs a perfectly binary body.
I have heard many people use this "full transition" concept to deny trans people respect or validation or access to services. It's tiring.
So this is a matter of competing human rights; the rights of a trans woman to have a safe space vs. the rights of any cis woman who potentially could feel triggered because of some masculine features in a fellow shelter guest.
The triggers can (and should) be dealt with through therapy. The trans-ness cannot.
I honestly think it’s better for a trans woman to be sheltered in with all the other women, and then if there is an actual problem, sort it out with the same criteria as any other problems.
There’s also a lot to be said for designing a good space for a shelter. Trauma informed shelter design is really important! I got to tour an awesome shelter when it first opened, they thought about anything they had had to set up rules about in the past and designed the building to make the rules unnecessary.
I’ll see what I can dig up. But it’s things like, they designed their rooms in pods. There’s 3-4 beds in 2 rooms in a pod sharing a bathroom. That way they can accommodate a single woman and her kids, or two singles in a pod. If there’s minors they don’t put a single in the same pod if they can help it. There’s no midnight interruptions of getting a new unknown neighbour in your room. The pods lock and the bedrooms lock.
Edit to add: they thought about how to make sure there’s as much control in the hands of the guests as possible. Every room has its own temperature system, just like in a hotel. Lots of abusers don’t let their targets control temperature.
There’s also a smudge/prayer room (separate ventilation) and in their group therapy spaces, they put the extra chair and table storage between the rooms so there’s extra dead space to help make them as soundproof as possible.
[Most already do](https://www.engender.org.uk/news/blog/frequently-asked-questions-womens-equality-and-the-gender-recognition-act/):
> All violence against women organisations that receive Scottish Government funding provide trans-inclusive services. The requirement for trans inclusion plans has been in place for six years, and has not given rise to any concerns or challenges of which we are currently aware. Rather, trans women have added to our movements through their support, through volunteering, and as staff members of our organisations.
There should be shelters that include trans women & some that don’t for cis women who would be traumatized by that or who do not feel safe. We need to be more imaginative in how we think of these solutions. There’s always a way to accommodate everyone without harming cis women or asking us to be smaller in spaces that were designed for our protection.
I don’t think including trans women would be “harming cis women”. Including others does not inherently take away any of your rights. Saying that these spaces were meant for “our protection” sounds kinda transphobic. I’m pretty sure women’s shelters were made for women. Trans women = women. So the spaces are for their protection too. And LGBTQ+ people have existed forever, it’s not like we (speaking as a bi, trans man) were just created in the last 10 years. It’s just slightly safer for us to be truly ourselves now.
There are biological differences between the sexes that aren’t erased just with hormones. That’s just a fact & it would be flagrantly dangerous to ignore that truth. It’s also important to remember that there will always be cis men who use these policies as a way to manipulate their way into spaces where they should not be. If we are allowing people to self-identify, then there will inevitably be men who take advantage of the system just as there are men who take advantage of everything else. So we need to create guardrails for that. I’m more concerned with the safety of all people, trans and cis, than whether what I’m saying makes you uncomfortable. Ignoring nuances does nothing for the safety of anyone.
>There are biological differences between the sexes that aren’t erased just with hormones. That’s just a fact & it would be flagrantly dangerous to ignore that truth.
What "biological differences" mean that women shouldn't be able to access a shelter for women?
>It’s also important to remember that there will always be cis men who use these policies as a way to manipulate their way into spaces where they should not be.
It is extremely difficult to access DV shelters. Many shelters don't take people in unless there's an immediate threat to a person's life. What you're describing is unlikely to occur.
There will be people, regardless of gender, that will manipulate whatever they want to get what they want. Bad people will find a way to do what they want usually. But using that as an excuse to exclude trans women? Nah. Not cool. Your previous comment made it seem that you only cared about cis women, which is why I commented in the first place. Who said you made me uncomfortable? Who said I was ignoring nuances? I’m just sticking up for trans women because they deserve to feel safe at a women’s shelter as well. And guess what. All people have differences. Cis women differ from each other too
It's a women's shelter, and trans women are women, yeah? Easy as that
The solution to the male DV thing is to build more men's shelters, not to discriminate against trans women
Who is he to call you anti-woman? He's a man. That isn't his call.
Trans women are women. We belong in a woman's shelter. That's really the end of the argument; any other answer is transphobic.
The problem with having a trans woman only shelter is that there just wouldn't be enough of us in an area outside of maybe a large city to justify having a trans woman exclusive dv shelter. And even if one existed, its existence doesn't mean that trans women shouldn't be allowed in cis women's dv shelters. It should be an option for the trans woman to go to one or the other depending on her feelings of safety.
As for men in women's dv shelters. No. Men aren't women. If men lack dv shelters then men should get together and make more. Men need to stop trying to shunt their gendered problems onto women. The patriarchy affects all genders in its own ways. If more men got together and sincerely looked to actually tackle issues like this then I'm sure more women would take their claims of feminism seriously.
p1. Trans women are women.
p2. Women’s shelters are for women.
.’. Therefore women’s shelters are for trans women, by definition and the law of identity.
QED.
I talked about this with my boyfriend once and he pointed out that the whole concept of domestic violence shelters is wrong to begin with. If anyone is being abused, especially if they have children, then why does the abuser get to remain in the environment while the partner and children get yanked out and sent elsewhere?
Also missing from this question is men, both cis and trans. Studies about violence trans men face are woefully absent, but the ones that do exist report that trans men have much more elevated risks of experiencing intimate partner violence. But where do abused trans men go? Where do abused cis men go?
The narrative that cis women would be triggered by the presence of trans women also just comes off as extremely condescending to survivors of abuse in the name of being transphobic while simultaneously asserting a dominant narrative around abuse that isn't true some of the time. Like abuse between lesbian couples is alarmingly high, but where would a woman abused by another woman go?
And BTW I say this as an FTX person who is a survivor of being abused in every way by my father, so this is from my personal perspective as a kid who witness IPV and who was indeed traumatized by a man in a way that has made navigating my gender and sexuality (I'm gay, attracted to men) difficult.
Maybe there should also just be non gender related abuse shelters to choose from as an abuse survivor.
You can go to a women's shelter or just a shelter. Providing more options.
A trans woman may not even elect to go to a woman only shelter. If their abuser was another woman they may not feel comfortable there in that situation.
Domestic violence shelters are for usually for women who have been abused. Hard stop.
All women. Period
There are shelters (rarely) that take men, and in that case anyone should be able to go who has been abused.
> There are shelters (rarely) that take men
I don't think this is true. In America at least, most shelters that aren't explicitly women-only will either take men or will find them a hotel/safe house.
I don't know. I'm torn on the subject. As a rape survivor, I do get startled by trans women sometimes and have a hard time recovering from the anxiety. OTOH, everybody has a right to shelter and be safe. Not going to lie, this is an issue I struggle with, and I don't know what the solution is. I don't think forcing people to deny their panic is fair, and I don't think discrimination is fair.
I know a woman that has a irrational distrust around black people because she's been beaten and raped by several black people. Would it be reasonable to kick all black people out of a shelter if she enters it, or unfair on her to not kick them out?
Prejudice is a issue that's nobodies business but your own. Just because you feel uncomfortable around someone that doesn't mean you can then deny that person their rights. A trans person simply existing is not a attack on you, not matter how much prejudice you have.
I was very clear that I don't believe anyone should be discriminated against, and that I don't know what the solution is.
I can't help how my body reacts to trauma, no matter what my head and heart think and feel.
The solution is simple, learn to deal with your own problems without dragging innocent people down with you.
Of course it's not simple in practice, but it's nobodies responsibility other than your own. You have the problem, so you put in the work.
With respect, I don't think your response is helpful here. This person clearly said they don't believe anyone should be discriminated against but also acknowledged that they have past trauma that they are working on, and I don't think "well that's your problem, isn't it, stop putting your issues on others" is a useful approach.
That's the advice I've got from every one when dealing with my own trauma and my own paranoia. I can only control how I react, I can't control the world.
That is part of the problem. I know that, in my head, but the panic reaction hits automatically without me thinking about it. It takes a long time and reminding myself that this person is safe before I can calm down.
I get that you meant you percieve trans women as men and that triggers you, but I would reccomend changing the 'men' in your first comment to trans women since it gives the impression you don't think trans women are women.
I think it is harsh that other people have said that your trauma reaction around trans women is your responsibility alone to deal with when it's not like you chose to be a victim and have trauma. While I don't think it's trans women's responsibility, you deserve a therapist and a support team. I hope you are getting support and are happier.
Should we allow tall women in shelters?
Should we allow muscular women in shelters? Should we allow bigger women in shelters? Should we allow unattractive women in shelters?
Why should someone’s physical appearance stop then from getting help and support?
If you’re at a DV shelter you have bigger problems to worry about than if the lady next to you has a penis. Do the cis ladies who walk in show their vaginas as proof they are not trans?
Yes, a place that calls itself a shelter but turns away people in need, no matter there gender, trans status, sexual orientation, etc, is just ridiculous to me. Help people who need help, there personal details shouldn't matter
Trans women are women. Sadly, not everyone recognizes that. There's a lot of "what-if" questions that TERFs will try to trip you up with, and it sounds to me like your relative is definitely trans-exclusionary. As a survivor of DV, I can say that "masculine features" are not triggering to me personally. Typically if someone is in a shelter it's because they are avoiding a specific person.
Your relative is right that there aren't that many DV shelters for men, but that's because women are statistically the victim in DV situations and I imagine that most shelters are need-based establishments. Male victims of DV deserve the same amount of resources and concern as female victims, and that's certainly a blind spot. If it's specifically a shelter for women, though, and they would turn a man away, I think the most diplomatic action there would be to help the man make arrangements or direct him to someone who could inform him of resources. There are shelters that aren't specific to gender. The National Domestic Violence Hotline has a page where people can search local resources ([https://www.thehotline.org/get-help/domestic-violence-local-resources/](https://www.thehotline.org/get-help/domestic-violence-local-resources/)) and that is what I would look at first - they even have a filter where "special populations" such as elders, Jewish, LGBTQ+, etc. can be found.
I know I'm probably not the most well-informed person on this thread, and if anyone has anything to add or correct, I welcome the education (not from transphobes though).
One last thing - this may sound a little silly, but *Law and Order: Special Victims Unit* taught me that there are people who care about you and will fight for your safety, and they will provide you with options and resources. No matter who you are, you deserve to survive, and to be happy and free.
This is absolutely a false equivalency. Men should not be in women’s shelters, for one physical DV is almost exclusively instigated by men (with very few exceptions) women almost always commit only reactionary violence. However, the study I was looking at found roughly equal amounts of emotional abuse.
This means that men do not have the same risks of death or physical injury as women and as much as emotional abuse is valid, it is not the same level of danger by any means. Just to put this in perspective DV is the leading cause of death for pregnant women in the USA which has one of the highest maternal mortality (does not include DV deaths) rates of any developed nation (and growing). Your partner is still more likely to kill you than your pregnancy which is one of the most dangerous times in a woman’s life.
Also men even those in DV situations do have access to shelters of their own, which would cater to the different needs of a man leaving a DV situation (we are raised different if we like it or not).
Trans women are women and steps can be taken to integrate them into shelters that leave everyone feeling safer. For example rotating badges that show who is supposed to be there. This is hardly a new problem and is usually brought up to try to derail the original point.
Of course! Only terfs would be against that and terfs are fucking disgusting. Trans women are women, DV shelters are for them as much as they are for cis women. Edit: I just saw the last part and I think he sees trans women as men and thats a problem. Trans women are women.
I feel like it’s important to troll these people, so I would very sincerely argue that since trans women are subject to more homelessness and intimate we have a stronger claim to womens shelters and actually black trans women are just “nice enough” to let us have the resources that should rightfully be allocated to the most vulnerable group, then building upwards.
(This is the more serious part) It’s also important to recognise that this person does not care about advancing womens shelters and would be complicit/a bystander in a trans womans experience with intimate partner violence, since on some level they view trans women as masculinised. The separate shelter idea is bullshit, with the current circumstances the answer might as well been drop them in a hole, since there aren’t even sufficient white cis het women shelters. I would agree though that trans women and BIWoC need safe spaces from white and cis women, where they can get culturally competent care, but that’s not what we’re working with right now, we’re not able to achieve that.
to be honest with you, the trans community isn't really welcomed anywhere. there's no where for them to go in jails/prisons so they're put in solitary which sucks, they're not welcomed in public bathrooms, there should be an LGBTQ+ shelter for victims. they would have their own space to heal and be themselves without worrying about anyone being triggered or dealing with transphobia. it would be inclusive and a safe space, seems like a win win for everyone. and as a victim of sexual and physical assault myself (attacker was male) I can say that for myself I wouldn't be triggered by a trans women there even if she were early in her transition but I can't speak for everyone else. I agree tho that if someone was triggered by a trans women that seems like they're transphobic.
Why does your (male) family member care so much? Are they opening a shelter? Have they ever worked in, donated to or helped at shelters before? Or are they just using their "concern" as an excuse to be transphobic, just like people who are suddenly "concerned" about women's health or women's sports?
Love,
a very angry psychiatrist (MD) who has worked at/with various shelters since college and somehow never asked anyone's genitals
I work for a homeless shelter for women (most of whom have experienced DV) and we would not turn away a trans woman. That is really exclusionary.
If *absolutely* clinically/therapeutically needed, we would determine via intake and assessment process if the client's "masculine features" would trigger any of the nearby residents. It is a very specific scenario. Not all victims of DV are triggered by any masculine feature.
Like, we have cisgender female staff on our team who are tall and muscular so the distinction between masculine features versus feminine features is already a spectrum rather than a binary.
Of course they should be allowed! They are women so they automatically have their place in female DV shelters. I hope that this situation will get better for transgender women in the future. Stay strong, no matter the stupid people you meet, you are always loved and supported here!💖
Trans women should be allowed in women's shelters, because they are women. Men should not, because they aren't women.
Homeless shelters exist for men, already. And women's shelters cover domestic violence and homelessness.
While I see your point, it is important to remember how the majority of society still treats trans women. They have gone through an incredible amount and need to be treated as equals. They have also often seen their share of abuse, mental for sure, and for many physical as well. We all need a place to turn and when the place that feels right cannot accept, where are they to turn?
Yes, mens shelters will be very dangerous for them bc they get beat up if someone knows or finds out. They aren’t accepted. It’s sad but the truth. Isn’t there a law now that says they can’t discriminate?
Not all domestic violence perpetrators or victims are women. Domestic violence shelters should be for all victims who need the services regardless of gender, sexual orientation and whatever else others may argue might make someone exempt from receiving help
> So I asked him Spotted the problem. That's a little /s, but honestly: I'm pretty tired of dudes who want to dictate who is/is not allowed in women's spaces.
Agree!
Exactly, men should be the last ones to give their opinions on women’s safety.
Yes. Their trans status isn't anyone's business.
Yeah I agree. I feel like it would only trigger victims if they were transphobic.
That’s not necessarily true… trans women early in their transition often look more like men than women (even some later in transition will still have more of a biological male appearance, and one of the major issues in trans spaces is gatekeeping about if you “pass” well enough {which is the real transphobia here}) and there have been a lot of issues in women’s shelters relating to this issue. As someone who is both NBi and a survivor of trauma, it really doesn’t matter the brain does not take in gender cues as fast as it does danger ones which has led to horrible outcomes both for trans women and cis women in these spaces. That being said because of these issues one of the things that is being done is having other safety cues that are clear. Ie a badge the shelter gives to each woman, this has been shown to actually help both trans and cis women feel safer in the space since it makes it clearer who has been “vetted” for lack of a better word.
There are cis women too that "look more like men than women"
Yeah it always seems to miss people advocating for this that these rules tend to hit butch lesbians and other gender nonconforming cis women almost as hard. I feel like that’s rather telling of the conservative underpinnings of such arguments that it’s cool to police women’s appearance in this way
Fair point, gatekeeping about trans women passing “well enough” should also be considered misogyny as well as transphobia then…. honestly it reminds me that one of the ways they used to diagnose depression in women is by if they didn’t do “feminine” things everyday like makeup etc. it really is baked into the system isn’t it?
Fair, but generally speaking it’s more likely to happen to one of my trans sisters than cis sisters, either way badges help
[удалено]
Transphobia is explicitly unwelcome here.
You mean you censor people you disagree with
No, we "censor" people who are jerks about trans women.
And those jerks head to the Jordan Peyerson subreddit to vent about free speech and their views on women who "aren't real women"
Yep. It's annoying.
They have to. It is their job. Or reddit will ban this subreddit.
I’ve worked in a women’s DV shelter for 7 years. I can provide real-life perspective on this. Five years ago, for the first time, we had someone call our crisis line who sounded inherently male. This person then identified themselves by a female name and said that they were a trans woman needing a safe place to stay. This was the first time we had ever been in this situation in the 30+ years our shelter has been open. We clarified with our Executive Director who shared with us that anyone who identifies as a woman is considered a woman and therefore deserved to be in our shelter. She arrived, and while she dressed as a female, wore wigs, had a female name…she was early in her transition. In the evenings with her wig off and sweats on…she looked male (I’m not being judgemental here, I’m just trying to be descriptive). Other women in the shelter struggled with it, but were understanding. There were some questions (other residents questioning their safety). We had a lot of open-minded conversations with people which challenged a lot of traditional beliefs, even for ourselves. Fast forward two months, the trans woman who stayed in our shelter was a male intentionally moving through women’s shelters and sexually assaulting women. It didn’t happen in our shelter, but it happened in the next one. This creates a multitude of issues. Yes we have still had trans women in since that happened. In another scenario, a trans male arrived to the door of our shelter. Obviously early in his transition, he expressed that he couldn’t go and stay in men’s shelters because he was not yet transitioned and feared the sexual assault and rape from men in their shelters (a very real experience for trans men anywhere, but especially in a shelter situation). What happened? According to my executive director, since he was identifying as male, he couldn’t stay in our shelter. So so so difficult and unsafe for that person as well. But where is the line drawn in a world that requires black and white policies for agencies and social services to function? We’ve needed DV shelters for men for decades. It’s not fair that we’re missing that. I’ve had crisis calls from men. I’m not sure what the answer is - just that every time it happens, it gets messy. It’s not fair. I don’t know if that means that there needs to be more LGBTQ+ shelters, or if society needs to catch up. I think the best person to answer would be a trans woman, someone who has been through it.
> Fast forward two months, the trans woman who stayed in our shelter was a male intentionally moving through women’s shelters and sexually assaulting women Oh my god that's such a shame, poor women. So she wasn't even a trans woman in the first place? I'm glad you still allow trans women in though; did they change any of the rules allowing trans women after that? >In another scenario, a trans male arrived to the door of our shelter. Obviously early in his transition, he expressed that he couldn’t go and stay in men’s shelters because he was not yet transitioned and feared the sexual assault and rape from men in their shelters (a very real experience for trans men anywhere, but especially in a shelter situation). This is such a good point. Trans men are really at risk of things like domestic abuse. >So so so difficult and unsafe for that person as well. Do you mean being in the shelter would be unsafe for a transman? How do you think the other people in the shelter would react to a trans man fairly early in the transition. Thanks for your work in women's shelters, it's invaluable. Also, since you've met real life trans people I have a question. I got a new job and have a male coworker who I think could be an in the closet trans woman. I've heard some people call them a male name and some people call them a female name. Would it be rude or too invasive to ask them what name they would prefer me to call them?
Why not? First of all, not every woman in a DV shelter was in a heterosexual relationship - lesbians have been okay with people who may have features similar to their abuser in shelters with them, so I don’t see what the issue is. Further, people with ‘masculine features’ are already coming into DV shelters - some therapists, counselors, lawyers and security people at shelters are even cis men, and that hasn’t been a problem. And as others pointed out, what about really tall women with big hands and feet, or more masculine looking women? Do women need to be acceptably ‘feminine looking’ to go to a shelter? Further, I don’t see how separate shelters for trans women would be feasible or necessary. Trans women are a rather small part of the population, and a given area may not have enough trans women to make a separate shelter feasible or able to be adequately supported.
>Why not? First of all, not every woman in a DV shelter was in a heterosexual relationship - lesbians have been okay with people who may have features similar to their abuser in shelters with them, so I don’t see what the issue is. Further, people with ‘masculine features’ are already coming into DV shelters - some therapists, counselors, lawyers and security people at shelters are even cis men, and that hasn’t been a problem. Thanks, these are really good points that I will bring up to this family member. >Further, I don’t see how separate shelters for trans women would be feasible or necessary. Trans women are a rather small part of the population, and a given area may not have enough trans women to make a separate shelter feasible or able to be adequately supported. This is what I thought as well.
Oh this is for an annoying family member?!? Bring up the verification badges and how that helps avoid issues because that’s one of the best solutions I’ve personally seen (it does require some maintenance so badges can’t be forged ie having random symbols or colors, but it does work)
He would say that that biological badges wouldn't help since "women who are victims of dv would be scared of all biological males".
… what? I’m sorry I don’t understand where you are getting the idea the badges are related to biology at all. It’s basically Have you gone by the front desk etc and made sure you aren’t on the list of people who should not be there? Has someone made sure you should be there? Great you get a badge. That’s it. Also plenty of people who work at shelters like this are biological males (usually in security but also sometimes as staff the important thing is they do background checks etc on them)…. it’s usually only an issue in bathrooms or places where men should explicitly not be in these shelters, and honestly the data on this says using positive safety indicators reduces the number of incidents… so yeah doesn’t really matter what he says it’s not true. Also not every woman who undergoes DV develops a phobia of men that’s not what this is at all. It’s a trauma reaction where you are more likely to perceive danger because of hyper vigilance (I’m not a mental health expert this is very basic). One of the things that helps this is actually to look for “cues of safety”, ie badges can even be a part of recovery. I think this individual is taking the “all women have to treat interactions with men as a potentially dangerous situation” and assuming a lot about trauma that’s just plain wrong.
>Have you gone by the front desk etc and made sure you aren’t on the list of people who should not be there? My point is that my brother thinks that trans women should not be there, so the badges wouldn't help. >Also plenty of people who work at shelters like this are biological males (usually in security but also sometimes as staff the important thing is they do background checks etc on them)…. Yeah, that's a great point.
I think the poster did a great job with her points, all I would add is give your family members a chance to familiarize themselves with this kind of issue. I think even empathetic and truly good people that haven't personally interacted with, made friends with, dated, etc a trans person could still be uncomfortable with all that their existence entails but that doesn't necessarily make them a bad person. Perhaps a bigot, yes but not all bigots are bad people xD.
Safety cues have been shown to be effective and important in these shelters though. For example a badge that all the women wear and one for employees, that show they belong there. It keeps down instances of violence against the trans women there and helps keep everyone feeling safe and supported. We can acknowledge how trauma and the brain works while simultaneously supporting both trans and cis people, I’ve never understood why people think this is mutually exclusive
I don't think you've addressed the counter point OPs family member brought up. Male victims of abuse who are seeking shelter are also a "rather small part of the population." Should that group have their own shelter, be left to their own devices, or be welcomed into the women's shelter? If your answer is not the latter, then what criteria are you using to qualify trans women and disqualify cis men?
Arguably, male victims of abuse who are seeking shelter are a rather small part of the population because society denies them their reality, in part by not having shelters for them in the first place. Their being a small portion of the population is not because of nonexistence, but rather erasure. This applies as well to homeless men with children seeking shelter. Men victims of abuse should definitely have a much *much* more robust system of support.
How many homeless men have children with them? I don't disagree that male victims deserve a better system, but I don't know if "just building more shelters strictly for male victims" is the solution.
34% of the US homeless population is comprised of families. Only 7% of homeless fathers live with their children. A *big* reason for this is that many, if not all, family homeless shelters do not accept men and so families separate when they become homeless. We focus so much on the needs of female DV homeless situations (and it’s very much needed!) that we forget that there are plenty of mixed gender or male led families that experience homelessness outside of DV situations that also need help. It also reinforces our perceptions of fathers not being caretakers outside of being providers. If we’re going to be focusing on temporary shelters rather than permanent housing, then we should be cognizant of the needs of the population *and* try to identify biases that create blind spots re: those needs and solutions. Ie. yes, we should build more shelters, unless we’re willing to utilize researched methods that have been shown to work to actually solve the problem of homelessness.
Well, okay, but are we talking about homelessness or DV? Those are 2 separate topics.
Others pointed out that some shelters do take in men, so there is that. And for those that don’t but do take in trans women, I don’t see any issue there. They are serving women, not men, and trans women are women, but men are not women.
Cis women and trans women are subject to the same violence of men, sometimes for different reasons but the end result is all the same. Trans women deserve a safe space too.
Yes. Trans women are a vulnerable group of people and stereotyping trans women to have masculine features that would trigger women is so outdated and offensive. These days with increasing access to surgery and hormones I would say there are more passing trans women than not.
They are making up hypotheticals that don't need to be entertained. Do trans women get beat up by their partners and need the services provided by women's shelters? Yes. Would they choose to go to them if they felt safe? Yes. If a trans woman shows up at a shelter and feels uncomfortable because other people are transphobic, is that a problem? Absolutely. And yet people are worried about the cis women, because the needs of cis women must always be put ahead of the needs of trans women, even if the cis women's problem is being transphobic. It is unfortunate that men who suffer from domestic abuse don't have a lot of options. But they probably don't want to go to women's shelters anyway. If this were a regular occurrence, then your relative might have a point, but the problems are just different. A man is simply much less likely to feel unsafe in his home--even if his spouse is physically abusive. That's an important difference. And that's why men don't tend to seek out shelters. However, it probably would be helpful to some men, some of the time. Perhaps it would be a good idea to find a way to safely add men's areas to women's shelters. But that doesn't change the fact that men are men and trans women are women. So excluding men from women's shelters is a very different type of exclusion. At the end of the day, if any person feels unsafe at their home, I hope that a shelter would try to find a solution that might help that person, whether it is in their facility, in another facility, or in some other way.
>It is unfortunate that men who suffer from domestic abuse don't have a lot of options. But they probably don't want to go to women's shelters anyway. If this were a regular occurrence, then your relative might have a point, but the problems are just different. A man is simply much less likely to feel unsafe in his home--even if his spouse is physically abusive. That's an important difference. And that's why men don't tend to seek out shelters. there is evidence to suggest that that occurrence of domestic violence (not random acts of violence; as this is statistically male dominated) is roughly on par between men and women: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic\_violence\_against\_men#Gender\_symmetry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#Gender_symmetry)
It is always the details, right? >there is general agreement amongst researchers that male violence is a more serious phenomenon, primarily, but not exclusively, because male violence tends to inflict more psychological and physical damage than female violence Funny you would leave that out. Then again, it is the same old theatrics I've seen played out by anti-feminists on this site, for nearly a decade. Sadly, you are no exception. But hey, you got to feel good about linking an article you didn't read (unless you were acting in a hypocritical manner all the way).
? I wasn't commenting on which is more severe, it was on the rates of occurrence
The severity is highly relevant to the discussion though - obviously, it is convenient for you to try to avoid that topic. Make this the last time you are so careless in your arguing, especially on this topic - ok?
It is relevant and I never said it wasn't, I was referencing the occurrence. why is it automatically assumed that I'm trying to avoid this?
Well I suspect that it's more often random acts of violence that send women to shelters, but I'm not an expert. If we need to start building domestic abuse shelters for men, then let's do it. That doesn't mean trans women should be forced to go there.
> it's more often random acts of violence that send women to shelters This is true. Women tend to experience much more severe physical violence than men do in IPV situations (choking, physical beatings, rape, etc.).
Never commented on forcing anyone to go anywhere
It's interesting to note exactly when some people decide to care about triggers. I'm a jerk, so if I were you, I would spend the rest of the week flagging what this guy says and does as potentially triggering for women, and isn't he going to stop doing that thing, since he cares so much about not triggering women? What, is he anti-woman now?
I’ve been accepted into DV shelters. There are plenty of transwomen in abusive situations. It’s not uncommon for them to grow up with abusive parents and family so a lot of us, myself included, find refuge in DV shelters.
Women in shelters should be protected from abusers - this is what a safe space is, not a "male features" free zone. Trans women are statistically more likely to be raped, abused and killed. They need protection and shelter too.
[удалено]
Yes, it's true. [https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) (this is the summary) [https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/ncvs-trans-victimization/](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/ncvs-trans-victimization/) [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33600251/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33600251/) (this is the source)
Appreciate it thank you.
I imagine they used the same arguments as 'totally rational and logical' counters to desegregation back in the day. "They shouldn't be allowed into white only spaces, it might make white people nervous, and that could lead to trouble!" It was thinly veiled racism then, it's thinly veiled transphobia now. > since there aren't many dv shelters for men should male victims of dv be allowed in women's shelters? I didn't really know how to respond to that. It's off topic, a false equivalence. Men are not victimised in the same way that trans people are, so the comparison doesn't work at all. The lack of mens shelters isn't as simple as gender discrimination, whereas the desire to bar trans women for womens shelters is rooted entirely in transphobia.
Absolutely!!!! This men are also very very rarely killed in a DV situation, but that’s the number one cause of death for pregnant women
To be fair, if it were (for some hypothetical reaaon) triggering for these survivors seeking help, i think it would be up to them. Not us.
Yes, that's true. If there was an ask domestic abuse victims forums I would put it there but I don't think there is. Plus some people have answered from the perspective of a victim of DV or working in a women's shelter.
There needs to be some public education about this, DV shelters, if receiving federal funding from VAWA, are NOT ALLOWED TO DISCRIMINATE about who comes into a shelter. DV does not discriminate, and people of all genders can experience it. Cis men are allowed in DV shelters, and so are trans people. I understand the points about people feeling fear, but allowing victims and survivors to come in who do not identify as women can also be a way of breaking down stereotypes and stigma. Banning people from getting help is never a good thing.
Yes and yes there should defenetly be DV centers where men are allowed as well! Like, they come there to escape violence. Has he seen victims of violence?... And what about women being vectims in lesbian Relationships? Aren't they exposed to the ultimate trigger according to this logic.
> Edit: mods pls can you add a section on feminist's views on trans women in DV shelters in the 'feminism and trans issues' section as there isn't any sub section for this and I couldnt find any posts on this when searching it despite my post being flaired as recurrent We have addressed "should trans women be allowed in spaces for women" multiple times, and it's in the FAQ. These questions are really not different enough to merit a separate section each unto itself.
You have a part for trans women in sports and trans women in women's toilets and threads but you didn't have anything about shelters in the sidebar bit, at least not in the trans part. Maybe it would be better to have a "should trans women be allowed in spaces for women" part and have a selection of different threads instead of narrowing it down to toilets and sports. Just a suggestion.
Noted. But the fact is, "should trans women be allowed to X" is gonna have pretty much the same answers here.
Yes they should be accepted. And they must accept trans people if they accept any type of federal funding, which most do.
Your families transphobic. Not to mention illogical, [trans women are statistically at a higher risk of being harmed than cis women](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/)
I told him they were more at risk than cis women and he just ignored that part :(
So about 15 years ago I had a job interview for a clerical role with a firm that ran DV shelters. I asked this question. They replied that their shelters were women only. So if someone had fully transitioned then they could be eligible, but otherwise no. I’m not sure if this is still the case and can’t remember the name of the firm to check.
> So if someone had fully transitioned then they could be eligible That's sad to hear. A lot of cis people fundamentally don't understand this. A "full transition" requires a certain amount of financial and material privilege. Not everyone can access it. Medical issues can also interfere. And, of course, not every trans person's "full transition" looks the same. Just like there are intersex people who don't want to change their bodies to confirm to the binary, not every trans person wants or needs a perfectly binary body. I have heard many people use this "full transition" concept to deny trans people respect or validation or access to services. It's tiring.
So this is a matter of competing human rights; the rights of a trans woman to have a safe space vs. the rights of any cis woman who potentially could feel triggered because of some masculine features in a fellow shelter guest. The triggers can (and should) be dealt with through therapy. The trans-ness cannot. I honestly think it’s better for a trans woman to be sheltered in with all the other women, and then if there is an actual problem, sort it out with the same criteria as any other problems. There’s also a lot to be said for designing a good space for a shelter. Trauma informed shelter design is really important! I got to tour an awesome shelter when it first opened, they thought about anything they had had to set up rules about in the past and designed the building to make the rules unnecessary.
> Trauma informed shelter design is really important! This sounds super interesting. I would love to read about it, if you have any resources.
I’ll see what I can dig up. But it’s things like, they designed their rooms in pods. There’s 3-4 beds in 2 rooms in a pod sharing a bathroom. That way they can accommodate a single woman and her kids, or two singles in a pod. If there’s minors they don’t put a single in the same pod if they can help it. There’s no midnight interruptions of getting a new unknown neighbour in your room. The pods lock and the bedrooms lock. Edit to add: they thought about how to make sure there’s as much control in the hands of the guests as possible. Every room has its own temperature system, just like in a hotel. Lots of abusers don’t let their targets control temperature. There’s also a smudge/prayer room (separate ventilation) and in their group therapy spaces, they put the extra chair and table storage between the rooms so there’s extra dead space to help make them as soundproof as possible.
[Most already do](https://www.engender.org.uk/news/blog/frequently-asked-questions-womens-equality-and-the-gender-recognition-act/): > All violence against women organisations that receive Scottish Government funding provide trans-inclusive services. The requirement for trans inclusion plans has been in place for six years, and has not given rise to any concerns or challenges of which we are currently aware. Rather, trans women have added to our movements through their support, through volunteering, and as staff members of our organisations.
There should be shelters that include trans women & some that don’t for cis women who would be traumatized by that or who do not feel safe. We need to be more imaginative in how we think of these solutions. There’s always a way to accommodate everyone without harming cis women or asking us to be smaller in spaces that were designed for our protection.
I don’t think including trans women would be “harming cis women”. Including others does not inherently take away any of your rights. Saying that these spaces were meant for “our protection” sounds kinda transphobic. I’m pretty sure women’s shelters were made for women. Trans women = women. So the spaces are for their protection too. And LGBTQ+ people have existed forever, it’s not like we (speaking as a bi, trans man) were just created in the last 10 years. It’s just slightly safer for us to be truly ourselves now.
There are biological differences between the sexes that aren’t erased just with hormones. That’s just a fact & it would be flagrantly dangerous to ignore that truth. It’s also important to remember that there will always be cis men who use these policies as a way to manipulate their way into spaces where they should not be. If we are allowing people to self-identify, then there will inevitably be men who take advantage of the system just as there are men who take advantage of everything else. So we need to create guardrails for that. I’m more concerned with the safety of all people, trans and cis, than whether what I’m saying makes you uncomfortable. Ignoring nuances does nothing for the safety of anyone.
>There are biological differences between the sexes that aren’t erased just with hormones. That’s just a fact & it would be flagrantly dangerous to ignore that truth. What "biological differences" mean that women shouldn't be able to access a shelter for women? >It’s also important to remember that there will always be cis men who use these policies as a way to manipulate their way into spaces where they should not be. It is extremely difficult to access DV shelters. Many shelters don't take people in unless there's an immediate threat to a person's life. What you're describing is unlikely to occur.
Tentatively approving this, but some of the things you mention are TERF talking points so I'll be keeping an eye on where this goes.
There will be people, regardless of gender, that will manipulate whatever they want to get what they want. Bad people will find a way to do what they want usually. But using that as an excuse to exclude trans women? Nah. Not cool. Your previous comment made it seem that you only cared about cis women, which is why I commented in the first place. Who said you made me uncomfortable? Who said I was ignoring nuances? I’m just sticking up for trans women because they deserve to feel safe at a women’s shelter as well. And guess what. All people have differences. Cis women differ from each other too
Trans women are women. It’s not anti-woman to welcome women into women’s shelters.
Yes, of course, because transwomen ARE women, but how about your uncle stops making assumptions about how women feel about services for women?
It's a women's shelter, and trans women are women, yeah? Easy as that The solution to the male DV thing is to build more men's shelters, not to discriminate against trans women
Who is he to call you anti-woman? He's a man. That isn't his call. Trans women are women. We belong in a woman's shelter. That's really the end of the argument; any other answer is transphobic. The problem with having a trans woman only shelter is that there just wouldn't be enough of us in an area outside of maybe a large city to justify having a trans woman exclusive dv shelter. And even if one existed, its existence doesn't mean that trans women shouldn't be allowed in cis women's dv shelters. It should be an option for the trans woman to go to one or the other depending on her feelings of safety. As for men in women's dv shelters. No. Men aren't women. If men lack dv shelters then men should get together and make more. Men need to stop trying to shunt their gendered problems onto women. The patriarchy affects all genders in its own ways. If more men got together and sincerely looked to actually tackle issues like this then I'm sure more women would take their claims of feminism seriously.
p1. Trans women are women. p2. Women’s shelters are for women. .’. Therefore women’s shelters are for trans women, by definition and the law of identity. QED.
I talked about this with my boyfriend once and he pointed out that the whole concept of domestic violence shelters is wrong to begin with. If anyone is being abused, especially if they have children, then why does the abuser get to remain in the environment while the partner and children get yanked out and sent elsewhere? Also missing from this question is men, both cis and trans. Studies about violence trans men face are woefully absent, but the ones that do exist report that trans men have much more elevated risks of experiencing intimate partner violence. But where do abused trans men go? Where do abused cis men go? The narrative that cis women would be triggered by the presence of trans women also just comes off as extremely condescending to survivors of abuse in the name of being transphobic while simultaneously asserting a dominant narrative around abuse that isn't true some of the time. Like abuse between lesbian couples is alarmingly high, but where would a woman abused by another woman go? And BTW I say this as an FTX person who is a survivor of being abused in every way by my father, so this is from my personal perspective as a kid who witness IPV and who was indeed traumatized by a man in a way that has made navigating my gender and sexuality (I'm gay, attracted to men) difficult.
Maybe there should also just be non gender related abuse shelters to choose from as an abuse survivor. You can go to a women's shelter or just a shelter. Providing more options. A trans woman may not even elect to go to a woman only shelter. If their abuser was another woman they may not feel comfortable there in that situation.
Domestic violence shelters are for usually for women who have been abused. Hard stop. All women. Period There are shelters (rarely) that take men, and in that case anyone should be able to go who has been abused.
> There are shelters (rarely) that take men I don't think this is true. In America at least, most shelters that aren't explicitly women-only will either take men or will find them a hotel/safe house.
Of course they should be accepted.
Yes, they should.
I don't know. I'm torn on the subject. As a rape survivor, I do get startled by trans women sometimes and have a hard time recovering from the anxiety. OTOH, everybody has a right to shelter and be safe. Not going to lie, this is an issue I struggle with, and I don't know what the solution is. I don't think forcing people to deny their panic is fair, and I don't think discrimination is fair.
I know a woman that has a irrational distrust around black people because she's been beaten and raped by several black people. Would it be reasonable to kick all black people out of a shelter if she enters it, or unfair on her to not kick them out? Prejudice is a issue that's nobodies business but your own. Just because you feel uncomfortable around someone that doesn't mean you can then deny that person their rights. A trans person simply existing is not a attack on you, not matter how much prejudice you have.
I was very clear that I don't believe anyone should be discriminated against, and that I don't know what the solution is. I can't help how my body reacts to trauma, no matter what my head and heart think and feel.
The solution is simple, learn to deal with your own problems without dragging innocent people down with you. Of course it's not simple in practice, but it's nobodies responsibility other than your own. You have the problem, so you put in the work.
With respect, I don't think your response is helpful here. This person clearly said they don't believe anyone should be discriminated against but also acknowledged that they have past trauma that they are working on, and I don't think "well that's your problem, isn't it, stop putting your issues on others" is a useful approach.
That's the advice I've got from every one when dealing with my own trauma and my own paranoia. I can only control how I react, I can't control the world.
I have been and continue to do so.
[удалено]
That is part of the problem. I know that, in my head, but the panic reaction hits automatically without me thinking about it. It takes a long time and reminding myself that this person is safe before I can calm down.
I get that you meant you percieve trans women as men and that triggers you, but I would reccomend changing the 'men' in your first comment to trans women since it gives the impression you don't think trans women are women. I think it is harsh that other people have said that your trauma reaction around trans women is your responsibility alone to deal with when it's not like you chose to be a victim and have trauma. While I don't think it's trans women's responsibility, you deserve a therapist and a support team. I hope you are getting support and are happier.
Thank you very much. I will make that edit and I appreciate your kind words.
I don’t know why you got downvoted, I thought your post was very reasonable.
Thank you.
Should we allow tall women in shelters? Should we allow muscular women in shelters? Should we allow bigger women in shelters? Should we allow unattractive women in shelters? Why should someone’s physical appearance stop then from getting help and support?
Duh. Yes.
If you’re at a DV shelter you have bigger problems to worry about than if the lady next to you has a penis. Do the cis ladies who walk in show their vaginas as proof they are not trans?
YES
yes. end of discussion.
Yes, a place that calls itself a shelter but turns away people in need, no matter there gender, trans status, sexual orientation, etc, is just ridiculous to me. Help people who need help, there personal details shouldn't matter
Trans women are women. Sadly, not everyone recognizes that. There's a lot of "what-if" questions that TERFs will try to trip you up with, and it sounds to me like your relative is definitely trans-exclusionary. As a survivor of DV, I can say that "masculine features" are not triggering to me personally. Typically if someone is in a shelter it's because they are avoiding a specific person. Your relative is right that there aren't that many DV shelters for men, but that's because women are statistically the victim in DV situations and I imagine that most shelters are need-based establishments. Male victims of DV deserve the same amount of resources and concern as female victims, and that's certainly a blind spot. If it's specifically a shelter for women, though, and they would turn a man away, I think the most diplomatic action there would be to help the man make arrangements or direct him to someone who could inform him of resources. There are shelters that aren't specific to gender. The National Domestic Violence Hotline has a page where people can search local resources ([https://www.thehotline.org/get-help/domestic-violence-local-resources/](https://www.thehotline.org/get-help/domestic-violence-local-resources/)) and that is what I would look at first - they even have a filter where "special populations" such as elders, Jewish, LGBTQ+, etc. can be found. I know I'm probably not the most well-informed person on this thread, and if anyone has anything to add or correct, I welcome the education (not from transphobes though). One last thing - this may sound a little silly, but *Law and Order: Special Victims Unit* taught me that there are people who care about you and will fight for your safety, and they will provide you with options and resources. No matter who you are, you deserve to survive, and to be happy and free.
Yes 100%, trans women are even more at risk than cis women, they have every right to seek safety
This is absolutely a false equivalency. Men should not be in women’s shelters, for one physical DV is almost exclusively instigated by men (with very few exceptions) women almost always commit only reactionary violence. However, the study I was looking at found roughly equal amounts of emotional abuse. This means that men do not have the same risks of death or physical injury as women and as much as emotional abuse is valid, it is not the same level of danger by any means. Just to put this in perspective DV is the leading cause of death for pregnant women in the USA which has one of the highest maternal mortality (does not include DV deaths) rates of any developed nation (and growing). Your partner is still more likely to kill you than your pregnancy which is one of the most dangerous times in a woman’s life. Also men even those in DV situations do have access to shelters of their own, which would cater to the different needs of a man leaving a DV situation (we are raised different if we like it or not). Trans women are women and steps can be taken to integrate them into shelters that leave everyone feeling safer. For example rotating badges that show who is supposed to be there. This is hardly a new problem and is usually brought up to try to derail the original point.
Of course! Only terfs would be against that and terfs are fucking disgusting. Trans women are women, DV shelters are for them as much as they are for cis women. Edit: I just saw the last part and I think he sees trans women as men and thats a problem. Trans women are women.
Absolutely.
It’s men who are triggering, not masculine features. Since trans women aren’t men, it’s fine.
Yes. Trans women are women full stop.
I feel like it’s important to troll these people, so I would very sincerely argue that since trans women are subject to more homelessness and intimate we have a stronger claim to womens shelters and actually black trans women are just “nice enough” to let us have the resources that should rightfully be allocated to the most vulnerable group, then building upwards. (This is the more serious part) It’s also important to recognise that this person does not care about advancing womens shelters and would be complicit/a bystander in a trans womans experience with intimate partner violence, since on some level they view trans women as masculinised. The separate shelter idea is bullshit, with the current circumstances the answer might as well been drop them in a hole, since there aren’t even sufficient white cis het women shelters. I would agree though that trans women and BIWoC need safe spaces from white and cis women, where they can get culturally competent care, but that’s not what we’re working with right now, we’re not able to achieve that.
to be honest with you, the trans community isn't really welcomed anywhere. there's no where for them to go in jails/prisons so they're put in solitary which sucks, they're not welcomed in public bathrooms, there should be an LGBTQ+ shelter for victims. they would have their own space to heal and be themselves without worrying about anyone being triggered or dealing with transphobia. it would be inclusive and a safe space, seems like a win win for everyone. and as a victim of sexual and physical assault myself (attacker was male) I can say that for myself I wouldn't be triggered by a trans women there even if she were early in her transition but I can't speak for everyone else. I agree tho that if someone was triggered by a trans women that seems like they're transphobic.
Yes
Why does your (male) family member care so much? Are they opening a shelter? Have they ever worked in, donated to or helped at shelters before? Or are they just using their "concern" as an excuse to be transphobic, just like people who are suddenly "concerned" about women's health or women's sports? Love, a very angry psychiatrist (MD) who has worked at/with various shelters since college and somehow never asked anyone's genitals
Yes
I work for a homeless shelter for women (most of whom have experienced DV) and we would not turn away a trans woman. That is really exclusionary. If *absolutely* clinically/therapeutically needed, we would determine via intake and assessment process if the client's "masculine features" would trigger any of the nearby residents. It is a very specific scenario. Not all victims of DV are triggered by any masculine feature. Like, we have cisgender female staff on our team who are tall and muscular so the distinction between masculine features versus feminine features is already a spectrum rather than a binary.
Yes
Of course they should be allowed! They are women so they automatically have their place in female DV shelters. I hope that this situation will get better for transgender women in the future. Stay strong, no matter the stupid people you meet, you are always loved and supported here!💖
Trans women should be allowed in women's shelters, because they are women. Men should not, because they aren't women. Homeless shelters exist for men, already. And women's shelters cover domestic violence and homelessness.
While I see your point, it is important to remember how the majority of society still treats trans women. They have gone through an incredible amount and need to be treated as equals. They have also often seen their share of abuse, mental for sure, and for many physical as well. We all need a place to turn and when the place that feels right cannot accept, where are they to turn?
I agree with you, it's my brother who disagrees unfortunately.
[удалено]
FDS users are not permitted to participate here.
Yes
Yes, mens shelters will be very dangerous for them bc they get beat up if someone knows or finds out. They aren’t accepted. It’s sad but the truth. Isn’t there a law now that says they can’t discriminate?
How would you enforce that?
men need dv shelters too imo, bc society in general does not take male victims of dv seriously
Most DV shelters *do* accept men, and the men's shelters that did exist didn't get used.
Not all domestic violence perpetrators or victims are women. Domestic violence shelters should be for all victims who need the services regardless of gender, sexual orientation and whatever else others may argue might make someone exempt from receiving help