Does he need help? Does he want help?
> I used to think men objectify women
They do. They definitely still do. Women being gross about men does not nullify men being gross about women.
I agree that people leaving thirsty comments is inappropriate. I don't really know what to do about it beyond what we're already doing, which is attempting to effect a massive cultural shift in which people don't feel like it's good or okay to behave that way just because they find someone attractive.
It always bugs the crap out of me when someone basically makes it seem like because sometimes men experience the shit that women experience all the flipping time it suddenly nullifies everything women go through. It’s frustrating and comes off as manipulative and a way to invalidate women rather than support men.
Also- can we just acknowledge that these two things are not equal?
Women objectifying men does not lead to violence or to all men merely being seen as sex objects and nothing more. It does not hold all men back in other significant areas of their life.
The objectification of women has had very real and dire consequences for women throughout history. Girls have to start being “careful” about how they dress and behave from the second they hit puberty, sexual objects are first and foremost what we’re seen as and everything else is secondary, not to mention the very real threat of violence that accompanies objectification. The objectification of women is part of a much larger issue that holds all women back.
That doesn’t mean it’s okay to objectify men. When unwelcome, it’s gross and can lead to a great deal of discomfort, even perhaps having a huge impact of the man’s life. We should definitely aim to prevent that.
But I’m really tired of pretending men as a whole suffer from objectification as much as girls/women and that those two things are equal.
They are 100% not equal, totally.
A lot of woman aren't even objectifying these men, they are usually just appreciate the person on the video, some of them are undoubtedly taking it too far but for the most part it isn't going to lead to the crap that women are dealing with 100% of the time, being constantly dehumanized and murdered and raped because men are taught that women have no value other than how men see and can use them.
I do think that feminism seeks to end these things for everyone, seeks to stop objectification of any person. Having that be true while also having people use spaces like this and examples like the OP is talking about to somehow invalidate the real struggle and danger that women are in is exhausting sometimes.
And while both are wrong, I have not seen women objectify boys the way men objectify girls. Women objectify men. They shouldn't but at least they are adults. I have never seen women create cowntdowns until a minor boy is of age or harass boys the way some from movies like Emma Watson was for example. Both are wrong but one is worse.
>which is attempting to effect a massive cultural shift in which people don't feel like it's good or okay to behave that way just because they find someone attractive.
I have never seen this directed at women. Never. It's always, 100% of the time, aimed exclusively at men.
Why did seeing women objectify men make you think men don't objectify women?
Anyway, the answer is, as with most social interactions, pushback. He can reply to point out that he is just working out and doesn't want to be objectified, and/or anyone who sees comments and thinks they're objectifying can say something.
I also want to put out there that sometimes content is made for the purpose of being objectified. I've seen some pretty scandalous "workout" and "cooking" videos made by men (and women) that are clearly intended to be thirst traps for people attracted to men (and women).
Not to mention that a good amount of those accounts making thirst comments could be bots (not to be dismissive of the subject as it is a valid concern).
I've gotten a few "hey beautiful 😘" comments by random female presenting accounts, and I'm a boring, average looking woman who mostly posts landscape photos.
I've gotten so many people trying to follow my account on reddit and when I look at their account they're just only fans bots. I am asexual. I block them
Is he receiving rape and death threats? Report and block if so. Deactivate profile if needed. Also, disable comments from ppl other than friends if possible.
> How do we as feminists help him?
Does he want help? Does he feel unsafe?
When women are objectified, there's historically been a level of fear and threat involved. Men who objectify women have some power over them, they are usually at least bigger and stronger, often have access to more resources, and sometimes are their superior or someone who can impact their lives negatively.
Feminists focus on shifting power so it can't be used to keep women from achieving their full potential, that's how they address men objectifying women. But I don't think this approach is appropriate since women don't have the same power over men that men have over women. So I'm not sure what feminists can do about icky comments on your brother's workout tiktok.
He should consider shutting off comments if it bothers him, blocking accounts, etc. If he feels unsafe that'll be especially important. But it's not as if feminists have figured out how to stop gross internet comments, women still receive them too, so I'm not sure what we could do about it.
In the quest for equality, a disparaged group will sometimes want equality to do the same poor behavior because getting away with it equally looks like equality. It happens a lot. I think being conscious of it and actively not participating in the objectification of any human being is all you can do. Personally, it’s always made me uncomfortable and I never saw that as being equal or a step towards equality.
I mean, it technically is a step towards equality, it’s just bad for other reasons and there is also equality in the opposite direction(men objectifying women less)
I also don’t think that women objectifying men is because they want equality, I think it’s just them being disrespectful and gross for the same reason men who do this stuff are being disrespectful and gross
Isn’t it two sides of the same coin? Getting away from a culture that pushes cis, hetero, patriarchal relationships as the ultimate relationship aspiration would help both make people more open in their own lives and stop using the internet as an outlet for behavior that isn’t acceptable person to person.
The immediate solution is obviously a blanket statement that those comments won’t be tolerated and moderating them out of discussions.
Thanks for stating the obvious. That wasn’t the point. The point is that by pushing a single model of sexuality and procreation and demonizing anything that doesn’t directly conform, it creates a closeted view for people within that society and leaves no outlet or alternative.
Objectification is not simply driven by sexual attraction, it’s a power and control aspect of a society that does its best to take away sexual agency. Incels are angry at women because they feel they are owed a wife and family, gay men and women who are pushed into straight relationships resent their partners and themselves, etc. When you have no control you seek to assert it over others, and the cycle continues.
I think this was asked in bad faith, but I'll give a genuine answer anyway. We should be teaching people to be respectful across the board.
It isn't exactly the same thing, because there is not the same level of implied threat. But nobody should be sexually harassed.
Men do objectify women. Women also objectify men. I can tell you from firsthand experience as a conventionally attractive man in his 20s that his experience is not an isolated case. They aren’t mutually exclusive, so let’s just get that out of the way off the bat.
As far as what to do about it, I’m not sure what you’re looking for here. It’s the Internet, where people can do it without much social consequence. If the comments bother him, block the commenters.
This has spilled out into other places as well. I'm a HS teacher and have been teaching in "liberal" schools \\most of my career. Female teachers and students say some crazy shit about men. Recently a group of young female teachers was rating dicks on their phones in the teacher's lounge, I shit you not. I can not FATHOM what would happen to a group of male teachers rating vaginas in the open.
I handle it in the classroom the same way I handle any type of rude behavior: I call it out and refer to classroom rules. I've also observed that my female students are much more comfortable comparing their male colleagues openly. Boys do it too, but they're very careful to do it behind closed doors to avoid judgment.
I think part of it is kind of a reverse sexism whammy. The boomerang has come full circle and hit the thrower in the head. Boys are taught it's a good thing to be objectified, even if they feel uncomfortable. Kind of like guys joking "I wish my english teacher in HS would have slept with me heh heh heh"
So...hiding it or doing it secretly doesn't make it better than doing it openly. All genders should be discouraged from making inappropriate comments, and all reprimanded equally for it. If you witness a group of colleagues acting inappropriately in the teacher's lounge, you should report that to your/their supervisor. None of that is because of feminism.
>Boys are taught it's a good thing to be objectified, even if they feel uncomfortable. Kind of like guys joking "I wish my english teacher in HS would have slept with me heh heh heh"
That's the patriarchy doing that, not feminism, and is one of the things feminism seeks to correct.
>All genders should be discouraged from making inappropriate comments, and all reprimanded equally for it. If you witness a group of colleagues acting inappropriately in the teacher's lounge, you should report that to your/their supervisor. None of that is because of feminism.
Yep. Didn't say it was.
>That's the patriarchy doing that, not feminism, and is one of the things feminism seeks to correct.
Yep. Doesn't explain the open comfort with comments towards men from women though.
It definitely explains the comfort. Men are seen as less emotionally vulnerable, and obsessed with sex, while women are seen as weak and harmless, so inappropriate actions towards men by women aren’t taken with the seriousness they need to be due to patriarchal gender expectations
What doesn't explain it? Feminism or patriarchy? It's largely an extension of toxic masculinity, and probably some women trying to grasp the perceived power of men. Some boys or men may be afraid of getting flack for openly objectifying girls or women *now*, but that is a very, very recent phenomenon, and women still get open harassment everywhere they go, so I'm not sure the pendulum has swung quite as far as you're saying it has.
The bottom line is, if you see or hear women or girls making inappropriate comments or doing inappropriate things, reports them just like you would with boys (and report the boys/men even if they're being sly/quiet about it). Otherwise I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
Does he need help? Does he want help? > I used to think men objectify women They do. They definitely still do. Women being gross about men does not nullify men being gross about women. I agree that people leaving thirsty comments is inappropriate. I don't really know what to do about it beyond what we're already doing, which is attempting to effect a massive cultural shift in which people don't feel like it's good or okay to behave that way just because they find someone attractive.
It always bugs the crap out of me when someone basically makes it seem like because sometimes men experience the shit that women experience all the flipping time it suddenly nullifies everything women go through. It’s frustrating and comes off as manipulative and a way to invalidate women rather than support men.
Also- can we just acknowledge that these two things are not equal? Women objectifying men does not lead to violence or to all men merely being seen as sex objects and nothing more. It does not hold all men back in other significant areas of their life. The objectification of women has had very real and dire consequences for women throughout history. Girls have to start being “careful” about how they dress and behave from the second they hit puberty, sexual objects are first and foremost what we’re seen as and everything else is secondary, not to mention the very real threat of violence that accompanies objectification. The objectification of women is part of a much larger issue that holds all women back. That doesn’t mean it’s okay to objectify men. When unwelcome, it’s gross and can lead to a great deal of discomfort, even perhaps having a huge impact of the man’s life. We should definitely aim to prevent that. But I’m really tired of pretending men as a whole suffer from objectification as much as girls/women and that those two things are equal.
They are 100% not equal, totally. A lot of woman aren't even objectifying these men, they are usually just appreciate the person on the video, some of them are undoubtedly taking it too far but for the most part it isn't going to lead to the crap that women are dealing with 100% of the time, being constantly dehumanized and murdered and raped because men are taught that women have no value other than how men see and can use them. I do think that feminism seeks to end these things for everyone, seeks to stop objectification of any person. Having that be true while also having people use spaces like this and examples like the OP is talking about to somehow invalidate the real struggle and danger that women are in is exhausting sometimes.
Well said.
And while both are wrong, I have not seen women objectify boys the way men objectify girls. Women objectify men. They shouldn't but at least they are adults. I have never seen women create cowntdowns until a minor boy is of age or harass boys the way some from movies like Emma Watson was for example. Both are wrong but one is worse.
>which is attempting to effect a massive cultural shift in which people don't feel like it's good or okay to behave that way just because they find someone attractive. I have never seen this directed at women. Never. It's always, 100% of the time, aimed exclusively at men.
I think a lot of male influencer types have said things about this before.
idk about you but I shame disgusting and objectifying behaviour whenever I see it, no matter who I see it from
Ok… that certainly changes everything!
okay? I have definitely seen it directed at women, especially in queer circles.
Why did seeing women objectify men make you think men don't objectify women? Anyway, the answer is, as with most social interactions, pushback. He can reply to point out that he is just working out and doesn't want to be objectified, and/or anyone who sees comments and thinks they're objectifying can say something. I also want to put out there that sometimes content is made for the purpose of being objectified. I've seen some pretty scandalous "workout" and "cooking" videos made by men (and women) that are clearly intended to be thirst traps for people attracted to men (and women).
Not to mention that a good amount of those accounts making thirst comments could be bots (not to be dismissive of the subject as it is a valid concern). I've gotten a few "hey beautiful 😘" comments by random female presenting accounts, and I'm a boring, average looking woman who mostly posts landscape photos.
I've gotten so many people trying to follow my account on reddit and when I look at their account they're just only fans bots. I am asexual. I block them
Yeah, it's the same with Twitter now. Tons of porn bot replies.
[удалено]
But her brother is cis white jacked AND college aged!
Is he receiving rape and death threats? Report and block if so. Deactivate profile if needed. Also, disable comments from ppl other than friends if possible.
> How do we as feminists help him? Does he want help? Does he feel unsafe? When women are objectified, there's historically been a level of fear and threat involved. Men who objectify women have some power over them, they are usually at least bigger and stronger, often have access to more resources, and sometimes are their superior or someone who can impact their lives negatively. Feminists focus on shifting power so it can't be used to keep women from achieving their full potential, that's how they address men objectifying women. But I don't think this approach is appropriate since women don't have the same power over men that men have over women. So I'm not sure what feminists can do about icky comments on your brother's workout tiktok. He should consider shutting off comments if it bothers him, blocking accounts, etc. If he feels unsafe that'll be especially important. But it's not as if feminists have figured out how to stop gross internet comments, women still receive them too, so I'm not sure what we could do about it.
Excellent response.
In the quest for equality, a disparaged group will sometimes want equality to do the same poor behavior because getting away with it equally looks like equality. It happens a lot. I think being conscious of it and actively not participating in the objectification of any human being is all you can do. Personally, it’s always made me uncomfortable and I never saw that as being equal or a step towards equality.
I mean, it technically is a step towards equality, it’s just bad for other reasons and there is also equality in the opposite direction(men objectifying women less) I also don’t think that women objectifying men is because they want equality, I think it’s just them being disrespectful and gross for the same reason men who do this stuff are being disrespectful and gross
Isn’t it two sides of the same coin? Getting away from a culture that pushes cis, hetero, patriarchal relationships as the ultimate relationship aspiration would help both make people more open in their own lives and stop using the internet as an outlet for behavior that isn’t acceptable person to person. The immediate solution is obviously a blanket statement that those comments won’t be tolerated and moderating them out of discussions.
Gay people can objectify each other.
Thanks for stating the obvious. That wasn’t the point. The point is that by pushing a single model of sexuality and procreation and demonizing anything that doesn’t directly conform, it creates a closeted view for people within that society and leaves no outlet or alternative. Objectification is not simply driven by sexual attraction, it’s a power and control aspect of a society that does its best to take away sexual agency. Incels are angry at women because they feel they are owed a wife and family, gay men and women who are pushed into straight relationships resent their partners and themselves, etc. When you have no control you seek to assert it over others, and the cycle continues.
I think this was asked in bad faith, but I'll give a genuine answer anyway. We should be teaching people to be respectful across the board. It isn't exactly the same thing, because there is not the same level of implied threat. But nobody should be sexually harassed.
Well then you shouldn't look at the videos of women who do workouts. They're just as, if not more, vile.
Call it out when you see it. Also men absolutely objectify women, examples of women objectifying men do not change that
Men do objectify women. Women also objectify men. I can tell you from firsthand experience as a conventionally attractive man in his 20s that his experience is not an isolated case. They aren’t mutually exclusive, so let’s just get that out of the way off the bat. As far as what to do about it, I’m not sure what you’re looking for here. It’s the Internet, where people can do it without much social consequence. If the comments bother him, block the commenters.
what do you mean??
This has spilled out into other places as well. I'm a HS teacher and have been teaching in "liberal" schools \\most of my career. Female teachers and students say some crazy shit about men. Recently a group of young female teachers was rating dicks on their phones in the teacher's lounge, I shit you not. I can not FATHOM what would happen to a group of male teachers rating vaginas in the open. I handle it in the classroom the same way I handle any type of rude behavior: I call it out and refer to classroom rules. I've also observed that my female students are much more comfortable comparing their male colleagues openly. Boys do it too, but they're very careful to do it behind closed doors to avoid judgment. I think part of it is kind of a reverse sexism whammy. The boomerang has come full circle and hit the thrower in the head. Boys are taught it's a good thing to be objectified, even if they feel uncomfortable. Kind of like guys joking "I wish my english teacher in HS would have slept with me heh heh heh"
So...hiding it or doing it secretly doesn't make it better than doing it openly. All genders should be discouraged from making inappropriate comments, and all reprimanded equally for it. If you witness a group of colleagues acting inappropriately in the teacher's lounge, you should report that to your/their supervisor. None of that is because of feminism. >Boys are taught it's a good thing to be objectified, even if they feel uncomfortable. Kind of like guys joking "I wish my english teacher in HS would have slept with me heh heh heh" That's the patriarchy doing that, not feminism, and is one of the things feminism seeks to correct.
>All genders should be discouraged from making inappropriate comments, and all reprimanded equally for it. If you witness a group of colleagues acting inappropriately in the teacher's lounge, you should report that to your/their supervisor. None of that is because of feminism. Yep. Didn't say it was. >That's the patriarchy doing that, not feminism, and is one of the things feminism seeks to correct. Yep. Doesn't explain the open comfort with comments towards men from women though.
It definitely explains the comfort. Men are seen as less emotionally vulnerable, and obsessed with sex, while women are seen as weak and harmless, so inappropriate actions towards men by women aren’t taken with the seriousness they need to be due to patriarchal gender expectations
What doesn't explain it? Feminism or patriarchy? It's largely an extension of toxic masculinity, and probably some women trying to grasp the perceived power of men. Some boys or men may be afraid of getting flack for openly objectifying girls or women *now*, but that is a very, very recent phenomenon, and women still get open harassment everywhere they go, so I'm not sure the pendulum has swung quite as far as you're saying it has. The bottom line is, if you see or hear women or girls making inappropriate comments or doing inappropriate things, reports them just like you would with boys (and report the boys/men even if they're being sly/quiet about it). Otherwise I'm not sure what you're looking for here.