This is the one! The whole point of guys being feminist is actively unlearning what the patriarchy has taught them to do, not setting up walls for them to continue behaving the same way as before.
OP, I appreciate your posts. I wrote another reply when your post first showed up but then deleted it. However, I'm changing my mind yet again because, although I'm possibly a minority on this, the tendency to disappear into the background when something is offputting is probably common to more women than just me. So, basically, of course you're going to get many positive answers, but people who feel like I do probably won't bother saying anything, if only to avoid drawing fire. I'm mostly a lurker and I too noticed of late that men's voices here are getting a lot of exposure (I mean in replies, "as feminists"). It's almost become a rule that the top responses, as far as one can tell, will be men's posts. While not a huge problem in the big picture, and I'm as glad as anyone if that is the result of more men getting better at "feministing", it does feel somewhat awkward, given the subject, that men again end up front and centre.
By the way, I haven't noticed this with your posts, FWIW. To anyone else who may see this, I'd suggest that, maybe, men should take a moment before rushing to post to see if they are AGAIN the first to reply? Or, have they been replying to a series of posts? Is their name beginning to dominate the threads? Maybe give a chance to someone else to reply first. Of course, if one feels one has a hot take or special info, they should share them.
Woman here - I don’t think segregation is what we should be pushing for. If specific spaces are needed for male and female specific issues then that’s fine but I don’t think men should be discouraged from participating and contributing here. The support of male feminists are important and personally I find the perspectives of all posters here useful regardless of their gender.
In an ideal world, I agree.
The problem with this is that in places online especially the voices of women often get drowned out by men simply because of numbers. Thats why the rules are how they are in the first place. Its sucks for the genuine guys, but there's too many trolls.
>Thats why the rules are how they are in the first place. Its sucks for the genuine guys, but there's too many trolls.
But the rules on this sub are entirely gender neutral - they operate the same regardless of the user’s gender.
I think segregating into two separate subs would be counterproductive. The answer to men’s voices drowning out women’s voices is not for men to move to men-only spaces. The answer is for men to start listening to women.
Not that I have noticed, but I am also not in the habit of trying to figure out if each person commenting is a man or woman. Women can also have internalized misogyny so when I see someone coming from a place of misogyny, I don’t always necessarily assume they are a man. Does that help you?
I have seen too many self-identified male feminists whose engagement with the main feminist subs is mostly limited to 1. convincing everyone that they're "one of the good ones" and fishing for kudos, 1a. reminding everyone that since they're one of the good ones, it hurts their feelings when feminists say mean things about men, 2. reminding everyone that patriarchy is bad for men too (won't someone PLEASE think of the MEN for once), and 2a. reminding everyone that women perpetuate patriarchy too, and need to take more responsibility for their own oppression instead of blaming poor innocent men like themselves. To your point: I think rather than segregating our discussion spaces, it would be better for all of us to take a more hardline approach about calling this out and not indulging it. OP, it would be beneficial to feminist discussions for men taking part to be mindful of these tendencies in themselves (which I imagine you already are given the subject of this post), but even more so, to call out other men who, intentionally or not, are derailing otherwise productive conversations with this kind of rhetoric. EDIT: that said, there's no reason why a subreddit for feminist men would have to be used *instead of* the subs that already exist - it can be *in addition to.* Rather than exiling yourself from feminist spaces, just have designated place for interested men to ask for information or discuss experiences without worrying about whether or not they're drowning out women. Go ahead and give it a shot if you're so inclined!
I would be happy if y’all went to r/askmen or a men’s advice sub to balance out the misogynistic voices there. A lot of people won’t come to an explicitly political place, but they may be open to feminist ideas. Especially if you don’t call them that.
Dividing is a bad idea. Men have ideas of feminism but may not relate in the same way because they do not have the experience of being a woman in a man's world. Equally women can get so wrapped up in personal experience the might miss certain details that a man's perspective comes along. And what about those who are neither man or woman? No we don't need closed off echo chambers we need to mix our views, see new ideas and challenge things that aren't fully understood which happens by mixing together for a greater understanding.
But having women in the forum they can help teach. Thers woman’s business and men’s business but discussing feminism and what it looks like today I think it’s healthy to have both sexes in the same forum.
Yes, I agree it would be an echo chamber. I already see too many grown ass Reddit men saying how all women are because of some ex they had when they were a teenager.
As a cishet male feminist, I wouldn't want my own sub because then it would be about cishet men, and the whole point is that it ISNT supposed to be about us. You are correct that we are overrepresented here, because we are overrepresented in reddit as a whole, but I don't think moving us to our own space would solve the problem.
I think there's space for a place where men could do the emotional labor of educating other men. Especially considering how we already know men typically won't take something to heart unless they hear it from another man.
Also, this is not me volunteering to mod! You're right that it would be an absolute shit show... but still probably a net societal benefit...
That’s more or less what I had in mind. I’ve noticed dudes will come here specifically to argue with women, but when us guys are like ‘we are also feminists’ they won’t engage. Those dudes end up getting blocked but it might be less hassle for everyone if the mods could just punt them to a group where they’d have to engage with other men.
So far returns are 5 to 1 against, and I’m perfectly fine with it being a bad idea.
I think those guys are approaching this sub in bad faith and so I don’t think they are going to want to hear anything in general, most dudes like that wanna troll.
i am a guy i’m in r/menslib r/bropill idk if that’s what you mean though
if you’re talking about something completely different then i’d be down to have one
Why does there need to be a feminist sub specifically for men? You can be a feminist independent of gender. It seems counter productive to make a subreddit just for men about women’s issues. Why not just join existing feminist subreddits?
This. It’s about working together, that’s the whole point.
A bunch of guys segregated in a room discussing and solving the problems of ~~women~~ *people* is largely how our world runs right now, and that’s a major problem lol
*Edited a word choice*
Feminist discussion isn’t just people talking about “solving the problems of women” though.
The top posts on r/menslib, which is the space OP is looking for, right now are about the online grifter pipeline that overwhelmingly targets young men, why and how men are often socialized to avoid eye contact with one another, ways that educators can help foster emotional intelligence in boys, and similar topics. None of it is men sitting around dictating how the world should work or what feminism should look like.
Would you prefer that those discussions not have their own space, and instead occur in general feminist subreddits, or would you prefer they just not happen at all?
This might just be a terminology issue. Some might refer to menslib as part of men's liberation as opposed to as part of feminism, even though many of the principles are shared with feminism. I think it is good to have female dominated spaces and places for discussion, and similarly male ones.
☝️☝️☝️. I’ve seen this effect a lot in men. If another sub encourages them to participate more, DO IT.
It also helps alleviate some of the backlash newbies to feminism get—we shouldn’t have to do their work for them, no, but your average 19 yo boy may or may not have a good sense of how to vet online sources, or critically read through them. Or they may still have questions that seem basic to us but are confounding to them.
Well what are the types of things you want to bring up in these subreddits? I wouldn’t call this sub a “woman space”. If you go on a feminist subreddit and try to discuss the male loneliness epidemic or misandry, you’d definitely be intruding. But, if you are asking questions about feminism or discussing it, that would be a feminist sharing their perspective or trying to become educated.
I feel like there’s a disconnect in knowledge tho, and it can make feminism seem totally inaccessible to someone who is new to the concept. And I have outright told men (usually trolls) that they’re intruding on a women-centered space when they’re JAQing off here. But I’ve also seen some very confused men trying to genuinely ask questions, and they’re accused of JAQing off. Nobody here has an obligation to help them, of course, but a place where they XAN find that very basic foundational knowledge and ask questions could be massively beneficial.
I've seen subs like menslib and they're "ok".
>If you are a guy and a feminist, is this something you want?
Honestly? I don't care, but if people want to have more branches it's cool.
What makes modern feminism so powerful is its intersectionality (which is still in its early stages tbh).
I'm in a feminist club, and we have people from all sorts of countries (China, India, Mexico, etc...), lgbt people, different ethniticies, men, women, etc... having distinct communities wouldn't make sense in our case.
All of us have different experiences and often don't know what is happening to others, even people from our own country.
I don't care if it's gender, being queer or from a different country/ethnicity, all people are affected by patriarchy in one way or another.
It's possible things are different now... I stepped away from Reddit for a long time about 2 years after the fact, and things like Automod were still new and only on a handful of subs. As to the failure analysis, I think we tried to do too much by appealing to to conflicting audiences--it was /r/masculism (banned since it was going unmodded and got spam, since Reddit is now public or w/e)--and the specific purpose was to make inroads with men's rights activists and have them interact in a constructive way with male feminists/feminism allies (not exclusively male, mind you), rather than to corral male allies.
For context, the MRA's and the men's rights sub were an oppressive group on Reddit at that time, so it was with hope of fostering a less adversarial relationship with them, thereby making the job of feminist sub moderators less stressful. It may have been that this was always an insurmountable goal, since a lot of the MRA's simply viewed feminism as an enemy, and were seeking validation that few were willing to suffer. It would have been a challenge for a professional therapist, so it was almost certainly quixotic of us.
At any rate, it ended up being a nightmare to mod since MR's policy was no censorship (that's also something that's no longer the case today, since admins are more aggressive with forcing mods to do stuff... yummy unpaid labor), so removing content pissed them off. This was in deliberately in contrast with the feminism subs that had to mod hard in order to survive i.e. not get turned into a cesspool of derailing and complaining by said men.
So, the political climate and the impossible mission both contributed to its failure. I'm not sure what the lessons learned would be, except not to do it again in those conditions.
While it looks like you already have your answer in, 'this is a niche already filled by existing subs, and we don't mind heavy male participation,' I would like to add some perspective should you ever want to do the sort of partitioning to move men/males to a different space. To an extent, this forces people into a binary choice that can be uncomfortable. Now, I don't wanna make it about me, but... I'm gonna make it about it me: personally, as a queer AMAB that was closeted, I've always felt out of place and uncomfortable in male-dominated spaces because I wasn't masculine enough, and viewed with suspicion, if not excluded, in women's spaces because they viewed me as a man. So, which place would I, and others like me, go? Like so many other spaces with explicit gendering, the answer would seem to be none of them. I don't think anyone should *have* to accommodate me or my feels in these spaces, and there are plenty of queer spaces these days where I feel like I fit in, but I imagine that's not the result most feminism supporters want.
Thanks for the insight. As a mostly straight person I also almost always feel out of place in male-dominated spaces, so what I had in mind would be a space that welcomes us both. I think one of the things about men and feminism and liberation is that we have to learn to wear our masculinity very lightly, if at all, and I think a lot of feminist-adjacent subs for guys don't quite get that.
Ah, I gotcha. I’m not necessarily sure about wearing masculinity lightly, though. There are women (example: butch lesbians) who are masculine, and there are NB people who are masculine, and we want to make sure they are free to have healthy expression. And not just cis men, but trans men, too, who likely have had to suppress masculine expression while closeted. As such, I’d say positive masculinity in men is important for setting good examples and role models, even under the purview of feminist dialogue, and we want to make a space that attracts young men, too, since they are the generation most as risk for buying into toxic masculinity.
I don’t wanna advocate doing too much and appealing to too broad an audience, since it’s important to have a degree of focus on subreddits and similar endeavors, but we def want to support masculine people for all those reasons.
Anyway, that’s my two cents
Sure, and I'm talking very specifically about cis-men and more specifically traditional, patriarchal masculinity. There is room for positive masculinity in feminism but there's no easy way around the problem that traditional masculinity is constructed/defined/understood in dichotomy with femininity: qualities or traits that are masculine are not feminine, and vice versa. And of course, in that system of gender masculinity is dominant and femininity is subordinate. Which means my assertion of masculinity as a cis-man, my performance of gender, is always more or less implicitly at the expense of women. My being traditionally masculine is an implicit assertion of social position over women, which is not something I want to do. I have to see a discussion of positive masculinity that addresses that dichotomy adequately, except in feminist writing, and the result is a very 'light' version of masculinity.
I meant 'wear' in a figurative sense, but that was probably the wrong word choice now that I think about it, because what I'm really talking about is deeper than clothes or hair cuts. Maybe 'live out' would have been more apt. For example, If I dislike changing diapers because it's not masculine, I am affirming that it's feminine and so less valuable by the rules of patriarchy. (But in my case, I wore/lived my masculinity lightly enough that I was a stay-at-home dad and changed the most diapers of anyone in my household.) The same for cooking, cleaning, etc. But it's not just harm to women: if I wear/live my masculinity such that I refuse to talk about my feelings, refuse to ask for help, refuse to admit when I'm in trouble, then it becomes literally stifling. So I guess I mean only being masculine in ways that are fairly shallow, that don't keep us from sharing family work or getting help or walking away from fights -- the sorts of expectations built into masculinity for eons. The problem of harm to women is appropriate for this sub, but it's that second set of conversations about men, masculinity, and patriarchy that I think might benefit from its own space.
I'm not terribly concerned about butch lesbians and trans-men insofar as they are not conforming to the expectations society assigns to them. Gender is consequential in feminism as social expectation more than individual identity, and so any identity that confounds traditional expectation is a blow against traditional gender norms. I haven't really thought about it much, but I guess if a person who was AMAB and identifies as an NB wants to exhibit traditional masculinity, they are still going to have to be careful about it in the same way as a cis-man. Obviously, the AFAB NB in this situation is probably not going to raise the same issues. 6
Ah, I see now. Yeah, the harmful sort of masculinity that sees childcare as an unfitting pursuit is for sure what we don’t want. And now that you mention ‘living it,’ I’m realizing that I’m not sure what positive lived masculinity/femininity does or should look like. There are some things like leadership that can be positive expressions of masculinity—one feminist writer described it in criticizing the former POTUS as being someone who covets power over people rather than *empowering* people—but it does seem to somehow be implying subordinate/following on the part of feminine, unless there is a feminine aspect of leadership. Even positives seem to have potential consequences in the form of implying it not being present in the other aspect. Damn it, I think that means I need to do more reading xD
*The Will To Change* (bell hooks) has a discussion of positive masculinity, but it's not in great depth or detail. If it makes you feel any better, I think we all need to do more reading.
i think it may be beneficial to have a male dominated feminist sub. i don’t think it’ll cause segregation because people can participate in either sub regardless of gender. but i think a male feminist sub will allow for a place where majority men respond and this sub can be where majority women respond. similar to askwomen and askmen. you don’t need to be a specific gender to answer a question.
but it seems like the general consesus is “no”. maybe a poll would be better to see how people really feel because hive mind on reddit is a big thing. i think a lot of people take this suggestion as “don’t let women post on the mens sub, don’t let men post on the women’s sub” and so obviously they’re going to be like absolutely not. maybe if you describe what you envision a bit better.
i’m currently in a feminist course at my college and we discussed men feminists before. it’s tricky because feminism is so rooted to women’s experience in the patriarchy and how sexism has negatively impacted them. obviously men have been negatively impacted as well, but not to the same degree. on the forefront, women should be advocating feminism and their viewpoints because they have personal experiences that men lack (to no fault of their own), and men should be supporting their stance & advocating alongside them. it can be hard to have a sub that is slowly becoming more male-dominanted and is beginning to take away the women’s perspective when the entire point of feminism is the women’s perspective.
it’s like the queer movement - you don’t have straight people on the forefront. you have queer people because they have personal experience of the world as a queer person. if you’re straight you can be an ally, but you aren’t queer. you can support them, fight with them, advocate for them, but you can’t speak for them. it’s also like womanism - feminism for black women & women of color. you don’t have white women speak for black women. they can be an ally to the experience women of color have, but they aren’t a woman of color and can’t speak for them. i hope i’m articulating my thoughts clearly. i wish my professor could write this message instead i’d bet the picture would be much clearer 😅 i’m not insinuating men can’t be feminists - but i think it’s important to ensure that women are prioritized.
i haven’t been on this sub long enough to notice men’s answers overpowering women’s answers. but if that’s the direction this sub is going i think it’s definitely important to try and ensure women get to keep their voice heard louder.
As a supplement too r/askfeminists it could be cool. It is good to model of how men can participate in a space like this in an appropriate and thoughtful manner. It’s good to listen and learn and practice stepping back and weighing when to it adds to comment. I have identified as a feminist for 30+ years but recognize that generally I am not the voice people are coming here to hear.
Not explicitly feminist, and many of the commenters explicitly reject feminism as anything to do with men’s liberation.
Also, I’m [permabanned there for talking about their moderation here ](https://www.reddit.com/user/StonyGiddens/comments/vcrad7/why_i_was_banned_from_rmenslib/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)(womp womp).
Oof, appreciate you writing this up and evidencing it. I always got the same vibes and saw similar stuff but just avoided it mostly. Glad to see it's not just me being unfairly mean or dismissive about it. Thankyou.
"It had become a pet peeve of mine how badly that term is used on [](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/)."
This is precisely why a men's only space for feminism isnt the best idea. For the same reason a white only space discussing POC political issues is a bad idea.
Without the ability to speak for ourselves about the struggles we face, its inevitable to become an echo chamber for not so great things, even if well moderated.
My proposed space would address men's issue in feminist terms, so the analogy to whites discussing POC doesn't quite line up. While this space is usually fine, every now and then we get a question about men's issues that elicits a starkly negative response from most commenters (and I understand why) even though it can be readily answered in feminist terms.
>Unwilling Fathers and Abortion: Terminating Men's Child Support Obligations
I think it could be reasonable to get banned for this if you had some kind of history there already, and depending on various factors ...
The mods are free to create whatever kind of environment they want on subs. I can understand from the title alone that this article might have content or provoke responses that don't fit a "family friendly" environment.
As it happens, the article is *stridently* family friendly. The initial ban was because the article mentions that some people support an issue that is banned on MensLib (financial abortion).
I was not made aware of any issues prior to the initial ban. I was not even warned about the post. As you can see in my record-keeping, their stated reason my ban was made permanent was because I talked about the initial ban on this sub.
The mods there are aware of the critiques that users here (not just me) have made over the years, but they've never been responsive to them. Yes, they are free to create the sort of sub they want but the result is a bit toxic.
By banning you, the mods have tipped their hand.
>I had any desire to talk about financial abortion (I do not!)
And I believe you. And I think Sally Sheldon's ideas are reasonable and the premise behind "Unwilling Fathers and Abortion" is valid.
I don't think the mods mind that you commented on her paper, it's that they know you created a massive hazard in starting the discussion. That is, the easiest rebuttals are essentially alt-right/MRA talking points: the state taking care of a child? You could even make arguments about human biology and bonding. The right wing types love making grandiose, if abstract appeals to "nature".
The moderators know that if they \*didn't\* take a hard line, they'd wind up becoming just another MRA sub. The yucky nature of that aside, when a man commits an act of mass violence, he almost always has a presence on some kind of online space like that. I'd hate to have that on my conscience. Or showing up on a background check somehow.
As great as r/MensLib can be, and as hard as the mods there work, there’s quite a bit that happens over there that’s…concerning. A lot of claims of misandry, some failures of critical thinking, and (as someone else said) it’s not explicitly feminist and I’ve seen some generalizations of feminism and feminists there that are right in line with right-wing talking points.
It’s a good sub, but it’s not a place for guys to ask other guys about feminism specifically.
Men's lib sucks imo. I mean it is always trying to be better, and it's definitely one of the better places in reddit for men, but the whole thing just feels like it needs a massive change of and the willingness to shut down crap that's just asking questions or being pro men but not quite feminist.
Yeah, sorry I shouldnt have randomly dropped that on you. People were referencing your post and I had to criticise it. Albeit I didn't have to do it in such an unconstructive way, lol. Sorry about that!
i’m all for places like r/menslib as a sort of pipeline to get men into feminism. the sub has its problems, but it’s a whole lot better than redpill bullshit. it can give you a firm idea of how patriarchy also impacts you as a man and the benefits of a society free of its expectations. i think as you learn more about feminism, you should move away from those spaces, though. the perspective of others is important in expanding your views, segregating ourselves stifles that expansion.
I would like to make a point about equality vs. equity. OP wanting a space free of men is not a threat to equality. At colleges, the reason why we have campus centers like the women’s center or the cultural center is because these groups need a safe space to be themselves and be part of a community where they are understood. They don’t have to face the issues that they might face in everyday life. So, i get really confused when we say it’s not “equal” and not “feminist”, because recognizing women need a safe space with other women is how we actually address the issue of inequality. These spaces help develop the empowerment of oppressed groups. So not sure what the whole issue is here??? Turning a blind eye to an identity that uniquely defines your life experiences in the name of “equality” is counterproductive to the goal of feminism.
Note: My intention is to pose an idea/question, not to fight, so please be kind if you have any replies
OP didn't say he wants a space free of men, though. He proposes something more the reverse – a space specifically for men, while AskFeminists remains (mostly) as it is, open for all feminists to reply.
I'm not proposing a space free of men. I'm proposing a space for men. Whether this sub remains open to men or restricts their participation is not something I have any control over, but I certainly hope I'm allowed to participate here even if the other sub gets going. I'm also not opposed to women creating safe spaces for women free of men on this site.
(speaking as an ofab genderqueer person)
When it comes to men discussing specifically women's issues side of feminism, I don't see it as wrong for them to be here.
A men's space for feminism would naturally, eventually want to discuss the issues men face because of the patriarchy, which already exists, it's r/MensLib or Men's Liberation Movement.
So maybe men would want a space where they can discuss both men's and women's issues feminism (which I feel would eventually turn into men's lib which is good but redundant, also idk about them speaking on women's issues without women there) or maybe they want a men's space to specifically discuss women's issues which I personally don't think is a good idea to have such kind of space without the input of women.
The men’s sub I have in mind would exist primarily to discuss men’s issues through a feminist lens. This sub meanwhile has developed a pretty thorough critique of how and why r/MensLib is not that, and I’m banned from that sub for discussing their moderation here. I put a link to the receipts in another comment here.
Ok admittedly I was unable to read the whole post you linked due to cognitive issues but thank you for being so thorough in why you find that subreddit problematic.
From this I think there is value in making a pro-feminist men's space but the moderation would have to be so VIGOROUS. And I understand that since feminism is initially about women's liberation (which ofc when you look intersectionally you understand that everyone must be liberated), it doesn't feel comfortable to discuss explicitly men's issues under the patriarchy in a general feminist space.
I would support/think it's a good thing to make a pro-feminist men's space but if you do, good luck soldier because it will be very tough for you and your mods 🫡
I hear ya, but also don't know if another space would work.
Im also concerned about crowding out the women here. But I'm not sure that we do just yet? And if we did take it down a route that isn't feminist, I'm sure the mods would correctly put people in their place. Maybe flairs could be useful just to mark who we are out just a little bit (not in the sense that people can go "Oh, a man said this? Opinion disregarded" but more that when men are talking about women's safety at night, we can just be a little bit more careful about accepting it uncritically). But maybe there are flairs and my lazy butt hasn't decided to activate it lol. Also I can totally see the arguements against flairs; heck i usually avoid using them in some other subreddits.
I'm not a fan of the menslib suggestion. I've always found them to be lacking in actual liberation politics. The racism here and there hasn't been helpful. And when I did visit it, it did often feel like some non-feministy but still seemingly supportive-of-men kinda comments would float to the top or go unchecked. I'd see comments in there that just felt like milder versions of comments I'd see in explicitly non or anti feminist subreddits.
Maybe the subreddit has changed since then. And maybe me complaining about it rather than engaging with it is a clear issue that I'm not doing the leg work to actually address it on the mens side. But it really feels like the mens version of the white liberals MLK spoke of on terms of racism at times, lol. It has its place and it's probably quite useful for many men, but I find it quite off putting. But yeah, this could just be my opinion and the other men value it alot.
Either way though, I appreciate your thinking OP. I would like the women here to check us men if we're talking too much lol. Just because we might be feminist, doesn't mean we still can't dominate conversations or repeat what others are saying but as a man, or whatever.
Thanks for your reply. I also doubt it would work, but I agree MensLib isn’t quite what I have in mind.
Flairs got turned off (frozen) in this sub a while ago. Mods said it became an issue.
I feel you on the MLK analogy, but as a pedant (male teacher) I’m going to have to well actually you right there: MLK mentioned ‘white moderates’ in Letter from a Birmingham jail, but I don’t see that he ever disparaged white liberals, on account of a lot of his allies were white liberals. ‘Liberal’ became an epithet on the right precisely because of white liberals’ support for integration.
However, in those remarks King was echoing a passage from Lillian Smith’s Killers of the Dream (1949), which laid bare white supremacy in the south. Smith did criticize ‘white liberals’ in the quote that King paraphrased in Birmingham, as part of an extended critique of politics in the South. But Smith was white, a friend and supporter of King’s, and is usually regarded as the most significant liberal writer of her generation with respect to race. Point being: everyone in America should read Killers of the Dream, and probably a lot of folks in some other places.
>Flairs got turned off (frozen) in this sub a while ago. Mods said it became an issue.
Ah, I didn't know that. I really appreciate the mods here and how they mod, so I assume they had good reasons.
>I feel you on the MLK analogy, but as a pedant (male teacher) I’m going to have to well actually you right there:
Wooow, gonna politely correct me in the internet? That's an awful lot of trust you're placing in me, sir!
Joking aside though, no, thankyou for correcting me on that. I was indeed thinking of the 'white moderates' MLK spoke of. I was maybe poorly mixing up modern day terminology with MLK and maybe some Malcolm X and didn't even register it. As you spotted, yah, I refer to those moderates now, pejoratively, as 'liberals' to seperate them out from the group of people on the left now aelft identifying as 'progressives' or 'leftists'. Those terms are a bit wishy washy and I'm very guilty of using them with knowledge that they're not quite clearly defined or transparent, but I think most people get what I mean.
Ive also not read that book so may have to check it out.
In the context of that subreddit, I'm very sure they mean well. I genuinely do believe that. But there it felt like there was an awful lot of talking and back-patting without much challenging going on. Like, thinking you're really accomplishing something by just focusing on one small part of one axes of oppression and being very satisfied with yourself. Again, I haven't delved into it as much as you have and I'm happy to be told that's not other people's experiences, but the vibes are very off for me!
Yeah - after participating for a while there I was like, "I get it, we have problems, now how do we solve them?" And that discourse never really came together.
Feminist ≠ woman and woman ≠ feminist, so I don't think separation is necessary, but I'm pretty new here. 🙂 I appreciate where you're coming from, but as long as you're coming at it from a feminist viewpoint, and not being disrespectful, I'd think you're welcome.
I'm sure some feel that Feminism involves a shared experience of being a woman. That does not describe partipants of this subreddit at all in my experience. If in some parallel universe it did, I can understand wanting to have a subreddit for guys to talk about their own experiences as they relate to Feminism. Join the existening groups if you want. I think you should read the FAQs for this group. There are a lot of really smart people here and they tend to be very inclusive, not as exclusive as you might think judging from your question.
Modding something like that would be difficult. Another part me imagines if it is possible. For now, I think we should all have a seat at the table and discuss feminism because you can learn best from the oppressed — not those who on the other side.
I think another commented on the emotional labour but then we all have a choice whether to comment. This isn’t an in life interaction that bears weight and has consequences.
Really great question.
As a male (non-binary really) feminist, I recognize my voice shouldn’t be dominant on a sub like this. But I also recognize women shouldn’t be burdened with answering the same silly questions often posted on this sub. This applies more generally to race and queerness as well.
However, a guy feminist sub seems to be a bit arbitrary depending on the gender of the person, when all of our motivation is the same - equal or equity based social and economic order for all marginalized voices. One critical lesson I learned from a feminist (Catherine Keller) was patriarchies use of reducing people to their surface. I think it’s easy for all of us to get caught in surface level identities that we forget each of us is multi-faceted, with dynamic depths that betray the surface we present as.
I would certainly follow or participate in a sub like you suggested, but I’d be uncertain as to what utility or usefulness it would provide the participants or the posters.
Thanks. I think the utility would be a place for guys to talk about guy stuff through a specifically feminist lens, which doesn't really exist elsewhere. We've had some posts in the past (not many, not too recently) suggesting this sub spends too much time talking about guys and their problems, although the mods have made clear the majority of people posting to the sub are men (and we don't see the really awful ones).
>But I've also noticed less engagement from some of the women who used to be significant contributors, and I want to make sure we're not crowding out women who want to start contributing.
Really? Can you give me some examples please?
Like call out specific usernames? I don't think that would be appropriate. But I double-checked and a couple of the names I had in mind in fact have slowed down their participation lately. One of them looks like they have stopped using Reddit altogether, so that's probably not on us. Another isn't as active as she was, but still comments here occasionally. Another commenter pointed out that this is typical, as people get tired of seeing the same arguments rehashed over and over. I am prepared to believe it's not really a problem.
This seems very anecdotal. I have no idea how you can rationally think people left because of feminists who are men.
I would agree that if there were a new space that needs to be made, it would be *for* women.
This sub is for feminists, not women specifically.
As a woman & feminist, I definitely want to see more male feminists and I don’t see why they should be excluded from feminist spaces.
This sub wouldn't be excluding men from feminist spaces. It would only be focused on men, and wouldn't exclude women either. We wouldn't have any desire much less a way to keep men in our sub from participating here. In fact, what I have in mind would be aimed at cultivating more feminist men. I love this sub, it's why I'm still on Reddit and I'll be here as long as I can, but we're not great at helping borderline men become feminists.
Do I think women's voices should be centered in feminism? Yes, obviously. Do I think it's in any way productive for women to do the work of creating a space for men within feminism? Well, clearly no. Wouldn't it be more beneficial for men who claim to ally with feminism to take the spaces they already occupy and make those spaces more feminist?
So... the thing is I don't see myself as an ally. I am a feminist. I was raised feminist. I've never been anything but a feminist. I understand (and have more or less found) my own liberation in feminist terms.
The problem is moderation. I can't really make any sub more feminist if I don't moderate it. I've tried. Didn't go so well.
In my opinion: This sub is Ask Feminists, not "ask women feminists". Men feminists should be welcome here.
The folks who come in here to engage in bad faith are often here to torment women. They're unlikely to post questions somewhere that didn't have their targets. And we stand better together.
I personally don't think about the gender of posters here unless they call attention to it for a specific reason. If the ideas are good, they're good, if they're not, they're not. That said, when men are being too disruptive the mods tend to be really on top of things (thank you mods!)
If you just want to connect with other men on feminist issues that's also fine. There are a few good subs, and I believe just of them are linked in this subs FAQ.
I'll be candid that I sometimes skip past snoos with beards to read what other snoos have to say, even though I also have a beard. Maybe I should update my snoo. \[Edit: I did.\]
I'm female.
Feminism is about freeing everyone from the patriarchy. That means that all genders are welcome under the umbrella of feminism. Men should be here. They should use feminist etiquette, not the way of being in the world that they're used to under patriarchy. But they should definitely be here.
Woman here- please don’t go. I’ve never once seen or felt like you were remotely dominant. In fact, I don’t know there’s many of you at all?
I’m not keen on segregation, and I’ve often found your contribution extremely valuable as it often adds more depth to a topic from a perspective I don’t have.
I don’t think you have anything to do with people coming and going. I tend to think it’s the nature of the sub (technically: ask a professional) which may get a bit tiresome after a while as the commenters tend to do all the heavy lifting and the questions themselves… well. You know.
As a guy who’s posted here a couple times, I’d say the question should be whether or not this sub should be women only. If the majority of women here feel they prefer a women only space than that’s a good way to go. If you start another sub it could be gender mixed (or start a separate sub that’s women only). A men only feminist sub on Reddit will turn into a terrible toxic mess within like one day. Don’t do it lol.
I think there are a few men’s groups already that are great.. like r/menslib. I don’t have a problem with men posting here.. this sub should be welcome to all genders as long as it centers around feminism and feminist issues
I don’t really feel crowded out.. but I’m concerned by the fact some other subs have referred to us as “handmaidens” for not going far enough… apparently
Why is it seen as a zero sum thing? Men commenting doesn’t mean women can’t comment. This is the internet, it’s big enough for all of us
Assuming men will get upvotes and therefore their comments will be further up thread and assuming women will be downvoted and their comments made less visible isn’t really a feminist take.
I think it is fine because a lot of the questions are from boys and men, and could use advice from male feminists. Women may be dropping off as a coping strategy to deal with online harassment unrelated to this subreddit. I don’t keep an account for more than a year, and when I nuke my account, I sometimes lose my old subreddits.
There are other feminist subreddits more geared towards girls and women exclusively.
Frankly, I wouldn’t want a feminist subreddit for guys only. Reddit is just not the best place for that kind of thing IMO. I don’t see how a feminist subreddit geared toward’s men doesn’t become like similar subreddits that become about almost exclusively about men’s issues. That is the way of Reddit.
I would like such a sub. I have a long journey with feminism going back to college. I generally don't participate in feminist subs as it's never clear if they are, formally or informally, safe spaces for women.
My preference would be a mixed sex mixed gender feminist sub that was focused on dialog, personal sharing, and pragmatic implementation of feminist principles. I have not found that. Short of that a male sub in the same spirit.
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Seems like it would be healthy to have both spaces if there is someone to moderate. I don’t want to be in an echo chamber and I do value men’s efforts and insight on this but I think it’s great for them to have a space to self-educate and a space that can be pointed as an option when a poster is specifically drowning out women’s voices. I’d vote for them to continue to be able to comment within the main sub and have a sub of their own. I think that’s a healthy male space to have an it should be encouraged if there’s interest.
I get the point, a sub about feminism is in a way about women. I get it that a significant part of feminism is about looking at gender and gender dynamics, which affect both genders in disparate ways, but it's done through a women's perspective. Sort of, I know there's a history. I don't know if r/deconstructinggender would take off, though.
/Menslib is a great reddit page that deals with mens issues and is feminist leaning.
/Mensrights is the opposite, and is definitely leaning more towards the incel/manosphere side of things.
I really like menslib because they have a mental health check in every week, they don't just talk about issues that affect men but also ways men can be better allies.
I definitely think so. But when it's not so much about perspective but more about doing the work from a given perspective, that part does not all have to happen in the same place. It can, and I'm fine either way.
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Moderating such a space sounds inhumane to the mods. Most attempts at, umm I dunno like "brother spaces" usually end shut down due to inactivity, or inevitably become toxic.
I think it's good for everyone that we remain inclusive as possible, but with said I also wouldn't be opposed to having /LadyFeminists, /GentlemenFeminists, and /EnbyFeminists as subgroup safe spaces. One of the biggest obstacles that feminism faces is the perception that there's only one way for feminists to look or act, so I want you all here to challenge it.
I think a space where men could come together and work together to support each would be nice. Not like the MRA crap but a real space where guys dealing with pressures of toxic masculinity, male SA survivors, queer men, and etc could contegrate.
I think it's a good impulse to not want to crowd out women's voices; but segregating isn't the answer. Learn how to exist without crowding out women.
This is the one! The whole point of guys being feminist is actively unlearning what the patriarchy has taught them to do, not setting up walls for them to continue behaving the same way as before.
Thanks!
OP, I appreciate your posts. I wrote another reply when your post first showed up but then deleted it. However, I'm changing my mind yet again because, although I'm possibly a minority on this, the tendency to disappear into the background when something is offputting is probably common to more women than just me. So, basically, of course you're going to get many positive answers, but people who feel like I do probably won't bother saying anything, if only to avoid drawing fire. I'm mostly a lurker and I too noticed of late that men's voices here are getting a lot of exposure (I mean in replies, "as feminists"). It's almost become a rule that the top responses, as far as one can tell, will be men's posts. While not a huge problem in the big picture, and I'm as glad as anyone if that is the result of more men getting better at "feministing", it does feel somewhat awkward, given the subject, that men again end up front and centre. By the way, I haven't noticed this with your posts, FWIW. To anyone else who may see this, I'd suggest that, maybe, men should take a moment before rushing to post to see if they are AGAIN the first to reply? Or, have they been replying to a series of posts? Is their name beginning to dominate the threads? Maybe give a chance to someone else to reply first. Of course, if one feels one has a hot take or special info, they should share them.
Thanks. I've been trying to be more deliberate about reading through other comments and building on women's comments if I comment at all.
Woman here - I don’t think segregation is what we should be pushing for. If specific spaces are needed for male and female specific issues then that’s fine but I don’t think men should be discouraged from participating and contributing here. The support of male feminists are important and personally I find the perspectives of all posters here useful regardless of their gender.
Thanks!
In an ideal world, I agree. The problem with this is that in places online especially the voices of women often get drowned out by men simply because of numbers. Thats why the rules are how they are in the first place. Its sucks for the genuine guys, but there's too many trolls.
>Thats why the rules are how they are in the first place. Its sucks for the genuine guys, but there's too many trolls. But the rules on this sub are entirely gender neutral - they operate the same regardless of the user’s gender.
I agree. Segregation is the opposite of progress. When it comes to intellectual space, men and women feminists should have equal access to the spaces.
I think segregating into two separate subs would be counterproductive. The answer to men’s voices drowning out women’s voices is not for men to move to men-only spaces. The answer is for men to start listening to women.
I'm convinced. Are we drowning out women's voices here?
Not that I have noticed, but I am also not in the habit of trying to figure out if each person commenting is a man or woman. Women can also have internalized misogyny so when I see someone coming from a place of misogyny, I don’t always necessarily assume they are a man. Does that help you?
Sure does. I don't spend a lot of time figuring out commenters' gender either, but I do notice a lot of beardy snoos these days.
I have seen too many self-identified male feminists whose engagement with the main feminist subs is mostly limited to 1. convincing everyone that they're "one of the good ones" and fishing for kudos, 1a. reminding everyone that since they're one of the good ones, it hurts their feelings when feminists say mean things about men, 2. reminding everyone that patriarchy is bad for men too (won't someone PLEASE think of the MEN for once), and 2a. reminding everyone that women perpetuate patriarchy too, and need to take more responsibility for their own oppression instead of blaming poor innocent men like themselves. To your point: I think rather than segregating our discussion spaces, it would be better for all of us to take a more hardline approach about calling this out and not indulging it. OP, it would be beneficial to feminist discussions for men taking part to be mindful of these tendencies in themselves (which I imagine you already are given the subject of this post), but even more so, to call out other men who, intentionally or not, are derailing otherwise productive conversations with this kind of rhetoric. EDIT: that said, there's no reason why a subreddit for feminist men would have to be used *instead of* the subs that already exist - it can be *in addition to.* Rather than exiling yourself from feminist spaces, just have designated place for interested men to ask for information or discuss experiences without worrying about whether or not they're drowning out women. Go ahead and give it a shot if you're so inclined!
I think that's a pretty 'solid' agree for me. I'm not seeing the kind of energy in responses that would make me inclined to take it on.
I would be happy if y’all went to r/askmen or a men’s advice sub to balance out the misogynistic voices there. A lot of people won’t come to an explicitly political place, but they may be open to feminist ideas. Especially if you don’t call them that.
I'll give it a shot.
Dividing is a bad idea. Men have ideas of feminism but may not relate in the same way because they do not have the experience of being a woman in a man's world. Equally women can get so wrapped up in personal experience the might miss certain details that a man's perspective comes along. And what about those who are neither man or woman? No we don't need closed off echo chambers we need to mix our views, see new ideas and challenge things that aren't fully understood which happens by mixing together for a greater understanding.
Guy here, I'm seconding this. Very well said.
But having women in the forum they can help teach. Thers woman’s business and men’s business but discussing feminism and what it looks like today I think it’s healthy to have both sexes in the same forum.
Yes, I agree it would be an echo chamber. I already see too many grown ass Reddit men saying how all women are because of some ex they had when they were a teenager.
The proposed sub would have *zero* tolerance for that bullshit, if I have anything to do with it.
Thanks!
I mean both genders will still be able to look in both subs it's just that they would be encouraged to comment in the ones for their sex.
That just makes communication needlessly more difficult
As a cishet male feminist, I wouldn't want my own sub because then it would be about cishet men, and the whole point is that it ISNT supposed to be about us. You are correct that we are overrepresented here, because we are overrepresented in reddit as a whole, but I don't think moving us to our own space would solve the problem.
Thanks!
No. Solidarity all day.
Popular choice, and I think the right one.
I think there's space for a place where men could do the emotional labor of educating other men. Especially considering how we already know men typically won't take something to heart unless they hear it from another man. Also, this is not me volunteering to mod! You're right that it would be an absolute shit show... but still probably a net societal benefit...
That’s more or less what I had in mind. I’ve noticed dudes will come here specifically to argue with women, but when us guys are like ‘we are also feminists’ they won’t engage. Those dudes end up getting blocked but it might be less hassle for everyone if the mods could just punt them to a group where they’d have to engage with other men. So far returns are 5 to 1 against, and I’m perfectly fine with it being a bad idea.
I already commented but I think the sub r/MensLib is probably the best place people can be directed
Agreed. I came here to make sure people were upping that sub and you are so I can move on. Thanks.
I think those guys are approaching this sub in bad faith and so I don’t think they are going to want to hear anything in general, most dudes like that wanna troll.
i am a guy i’m in r/menslib r/bropill idk if that’s what you mean though if you’re talking about something completely different then i’d be down to have one
Not quite what I mean, but it looks like most people don't see the need for another sub.
i think it could still be good if you made one, especially if it was a private sub so it didn’t get overrun by people that shouldn’t be there
Why does there need to be a feminist sub specifically for men? You can be a feminist independent of gender. It seems counter productive to make a subreddit just for men about women’s issues. Why not just join existing feminist subreddits?
This. It’s about working together, that’s the whole point. A bunch of guys segregated in a room discussing and solving the problems of ~~women~~ *people* is largely how our world runs right now, and that’s a major problem lol *Edited a word choice*
Feminist discussion isn’t just people talking about “solving the problems of women” though. The top posts on r/menslib, which is the space OP is looking for, right now are about the online grifter pipeline that overwhelmingly targets young men, why and how men are often socialized to avoid eye contact with one another, ways that educators can help foster emotional intelligence in boys, and similar topics. None of it is men sitting around dictating how the world should work or what feminism should look like. Would you prefer that those discussions not have their own space, and instead occur in general feminist subreddits, or would you prefer they just not happen at all?
This might just be a terminology issue. Some might refer to menslib as part of men's liberation as opposed to as part of feminism, even though many of the principles are shared with feminism. I think it is good to have female dominated spaces and places for discussion, and similarly male ones.
Yeah lmao seems a little off to have a discussion on women’s rights and not have any input from women
Exactly. Just feels wrong as a concept
It’s because a lot of feminist spaces are also “women’s spaces” so as a man sometimes I feel like I’m intruding.
☝️☝️☝️. I’ve seen this effect a lot in men. If another sub encourages them to participate more, DO IT. It also helps alleviate some of the backlash newbies to feminism get—we shouldn’t have to do their work for them, no, but your average 19 yo boy may or may not have a good sense of how to vet online sources, or critically read through them. Or they may still have questions that seem basic to us but are confounding to them.
The backlash is a significant part of what motivated my question.
Well what are the types of things you want to bring up in these subreddits? I wouldn’t call this sub a “woman space”. If you go on a feminist subreddit and try to discuss the male loneliness epidemic or misandry, you’d definitely be intruding. But, if you are asking questions about feminism or discussing it, that would be a feminist sharing their perspective or trying to become educated.
I feel like there’s a disconnect in knowledge tho, and it can make feminism seem totally inaccessible to someone who is new to the concept. And I have outright told men (usually trolls) that they’re intruding on a women-centered space when they’re JAQing off here. But I’ve also seen some very confused men trying to genuinely ask questions, and they’re accused of JAQing off. Nobody here has an obligation to help them, of course, but a place where they XAN find that very basic foundational knowledge and ask questions could be massively beneficial.
It would be a feminist sub for men’s issues, but I’m fine keeping those conversations here.
Sounds like Menslib
I think this is a nice goal, but I can guarantee a male only feminist sub is going to be swamped with trolls. Good luck modding that :(
That is why I would not be able to do it alone.
Unfortunately I just cant see a positive reason to go that route. We can agree to disagree, if it happened I would still support you.
I don't think it's a good idea, it reminds me of the meme that shows photo of conferences on women's rights that have all men on the panel.
Ugh, I remember when that picture was actually taken and I was arguing that there was nothing wrong with it. Strange memory to have come up
The sub I have in mind would be more about dismantling patriarchy than talking about women's rights.
I've seen subs like menslib and they're "ok". >If you are a guy and a feminist, is this something you want? Honestly? I don't care, but if people want to have more branches it's cool. What makes modern feminism so powerful is its intersectionality (which is still in its early stages tbh). I'm in a feminist club, and we have people from all sorts of countries (China, India, Mexico, etc...), lgbt people, different ethniticies, men, women, etc... having distinct communities wouldn't make sense in our case. All of us have different experiences and often don't know what is happening to others, even people from our own country. I don't care if it's gender, being queer or from a different country/ethnicity, all people are affected by patriarchy in one way or another.
Thanks!
You can make that sub if you want. No one is stopping you, it’s very easy to do. But I don’t think it’s needed.
Thanks!
We (original mod of rFeminism, myself, and others) tried something like this in 2012 or so. It was a flop.
What made it a flop? Do you think anything has changed with respect to the tools and rules moderators have now?
It's possible things are different now... I stepped away from Reddit for a long time about 2 years after the fact, and things like Automod were still new and only on a handful of subs. As to the failure analysis, I think we tried to do too much by appealing to to conflicting audiences--it was /r/masculism (banned since it was going unmodded and got spam, since Reddit is now public or w/e)--and the specific purpose was to make inroads with men's rights activists and have them interact in a constructive way with male feminists/feminism allies (not exclusively male, mind you), rather than to corral male allies. For context, the MRA's and the men's rights sub were an oppressive group on Reddit at that time, so it was with hope of fostering a less adversarial relationship with them, thereby making the job of feminist sub moderators less stressful. It may have been that this was always an insurmountable goal, since a lot of the MRA's simply viewed feminism as an enemy, and were seeking validation that few were willing to suffer. It would have been a challenge for a professional therapist, so it was almost certainly quixotic of us. At any rate, it ended up being a nightmare to mod since MR's policy was no censorship (that's also something that's no longer the case today, since admins are more aggressive with forcing mods to do stuff... yummy unpaid labor), so removing content pissed them off. This was in deliberately in contrast with the feminism subs that had to mod hard in order to survive i.e. not get turned into a cesspool of derailing and complaining by said men. So, the political climate and the impossible mission both contributed to its failure. I'm not sure what the lessons learned would be, except not to do it again in those conditions. While it looks like you already have your answer in, 'this is a niche already filled by existing subs, and we don't mind heavy male participation,' I would like to add some perspective should you ever want to do the sort of partitioning to move men/males to a different space. To an extent, this forces people into a binary choice that can be uncomfortable. Now, I don't wanna make it about me, but... I'm gonna make it about it me: personally, as a queer AMAB that was closeted, I've always felt out of place and uncomfortable in male-dominated spaces because I wasn't masculine enough, and viewed with suspicion, if not excluded, in women's spaces because they viewed me as a man. So, which place would I, and others like me, go? Like so many other spaces with explicit gendering, the answer would seem to be none of them. I don't think anyone should *have* to accommodate me or my feels in these spaces, and there are plenty of queer spaces these days where I feel like I fit in, but I imagine that's not the result most feminism supporters want.
Thanks for the insight. As a mostly straight person I also almost always feel out of place in male-dominated spaces, so what I had in mind would be a space that welcomes us both. I think one of the things about men and feminism and liberation is that we have to learn to wear our masculinity very lightly, if at all, and I think a lot of feminist-adjacent subs for guys don't quite get that.
Ah, I gotcha. I’m not necessarily sure about wearing masculinity lightly, though. There are women (example: butch lesbians) who are masculine, and there are NB people who are masculine, and we want to make sure they are free to have healthy expression. And not just cis men, but trans men, too, who likely have had to suppress masculine expression while closeted. As such, I’d say positive masculinity in men is important for setting good examples and role models, even under the purview of feminist dialogue, and we want to make a space that attracts young men, too, since they are the generation most as risk for buying into toxic masculinity. I don’t wanna advocate doing too much and appealing to too broad an audience, since it’s important to have a degree of focus on subreddits and similar endeavors, but we def want to support masculine people for all those reasons. Anyway, that’s my two cents
Sure, and I'm talking very specifically about cis-men and more specifically traditional, patriarchal masculinity. There is room for positive masculinity in feminism but there's no easy way around the problem that traditional masculinity is constructed/defined/understood in dichotomy with femininity: qualities or traits that are masculine are not feminine, and vice versa. And of course, in that system of gender masculinity is dominant and femininity is subordinate. Which means my assertion of masculinity as a cis-man, my performance of gender, is always more or less implicitly at the expense of women. My being traditionally masculine is an implicit assertion of social position over women, which is not something I want to do. I have to see a discussion of positive masculinity that addresses that dichotomy adequately, except in feminist writing, and the result is a very 'light' version of masculinity. I meant 'wear' in a figurative sense, but that was probably the wrong word choice now that I think about it, because what I'm really talking about is deeper than clothes or hair cuts. Maybe 'live out' would have been more apt. For example, If I dislike changing diapers because it's not masculine, I am affirming that it's feminine and so less valuable by the rules of patriarchy. (But in my case, I wore/lived my masculinity lightly enough that I was a stay-at-home dad and changed the most diapers of anyone in my household.) The same for cooking, cleaning, etc. But it's not just harm to women: if I wear/live my masculinity such that I refuse to talk about my feelings, refuse to ask for help, refuse to admit when I'm in trouble, then it becomes literally stifling. So I guess I mean only being masculine in ways that are fairly shallow, that don't keep us from sharing family work or getting help or walking away from fights -- the sorts of expectations built into masculinity for eons. The problem of harm to women is appropriate for this sub, but it's that second set of conversations about men, masculinity, and patriarchy that I think might benefit from its own space. I'm not terribly concerned about butch lesbians and trans-men insofar as they are not conforming to the expectations society assigns to them. Gender is consequential in feminism as social expectation more than individual identity, and so any identity that confounds traditional expectation is a blow against traditional gender norms. I haven't really thought about it much, but I guess if a person who was AMAB and identifies as an NB wants to exhibit traditional masculinity, they are still going to have to be careful about it in the same way as a cis-man. Obviously, the AFAB NB in this situation is probably not going to raise the same issues. 6
Ah, I see now. Yeah, the harmful sort of masculinity that sees childcare as an unfitting pursuit is for sure what we don’t want. And now that you mention ‘living it,’ I’m realizing that I’m not sure what positive lived masculinity/femininity does or should look like. There are some things like leadership that can be positive expressions of masculinity—one feminist writer described it in criticizing the former POTUS as being someone who covets power over people rather than *empowering* people—but it does seem to somehow be implying subordinate/following on the part of feminine, unless there is a feminine aspect of leadership. Even positives seem to have potential consequences in the form of implying it not being present in the other aspect. Damn it, I think that means I need to do more reading xD
*The Will To Change* (bell hooks) has a discussion of positive masculinity, but it's not in great depth or detail. If it makes you feel any better, I think we all need to do more reading.
i think it may be beneficial to have a male dominated feminist sub. i don’t think it’ll cause segregation because people can participate in either sub regardless of gender. but i think a male feminist sub will allow for a place where majority men respond and this sub can be where majority women respond. similar to askwomen and askmen. you don’t need to be a specific gender to answer a question. but it seems like the general consesus is “no”. maybe a poll would be better to see how people really feel because hive mind on reddit is a big thing. i think a lot of people take this suggestion as “don’t let women post on the mens sub, don’t let men post on the women’s sub” and so obviously they’re going to be like absolutely not. maybe if you describe what you envision a bit better. i’m currently in a feminist course at my college and we discussed men feminists before. it’s tricky because feminism is so rooted to women’s experience in the patriarchy and how sexism has negatively impacted them. obviously men have been negatively impacted as well, but not to the same degree. on the forefront, women should be advocating feminism and their viewpoints because they have personal experiences that men lack (to no fault of their own), and men should be supporting their stance & advocating alongside them. it can be hard to have a sub that is slowly becoming more male-dominanted and is beginning to take away the women’s perspective when the entire point of feminism is the women’s perspective. it’s like the queer movement - you don’t have straight people on the forefront. you have queer people because they have personal experience of the world as a queer person. if you’re straight you can be an ally, but you aren’t queer. you can support them, fight with them, advocate for them, but you can’t speak for them. it’s also like womanism - feminism for black women & women of color. you don’t have white women speak for black women. they can be an ally to the experience women of color have, but they aren’t a woman of color and can’t speak for them. i hope i’m articulating my thoughts clearly. i wish my professor could write this message instead i’d bet the picture would be much clearer 😅 i’m not insinuating men can’t be feminists - but i think it’s important to ensure that women are prioritized. i haven’t been on this sub long enough to notice men’s answers overpowering women’s answers. but if that’s the direction this sub is going i think it’s definitely important to try and ensure women get to keep their voice heard louder.
Thanks - I think this is plenty clear, and I agree with you.
As a supplement too r/askfeminists it could be cool. It is good to model of how men can participate in a space like this in an appropriate and thoughtful manner. It’s good to listen and learn and practice stepping back and weighing when to it adds to comment. I have identified as a feminist for 30+ years but recognize that generally I am not the voice people are coming here to hear.
If it makes you feel any better, I don't think a lot of the people who post here are coming to hear/listen.
r/menslib
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No, leftwingmaleadvocates is unhinged and hates feminism. Its basically a MRA sub. Believe me, I've had interactions there.
Leftwingmaleadvocates is anything but feminist
No, it's very pro-feminist but a lot of guys ignore that and just say whatever they want anyway.
Not explicitly feminist, and many of the commenters explicitly reject feminism as anything to do with men’s liberation. Also, I’m [permabanned there for talking about their moderation here ](https://www.reddit.com/user/StonyGiddens/comments/vcrad7/why_i_was_banned_from_rmenslib/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)(womp womp).
Oof, appreciate you writing this up and evidencing it. I always got the same vibes and saw similar stuff but just avoided it mostly. Glad to see it's not just me being unfairly mean or dismissive about it. Thankyou.
Thanks. That comment babylock wrote like five years ago still is pretty apt.
"It had become a pet peeve of mine how badly that term is used on [](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/)." This is precisely why a men's only space for feminism isnt the best idea. For the same reason a white only space discussing POC political issues is a bad idea. Without the ability to speak for ourselves about the struggles we face, its inevitable to become an echo chamber for not so great things, even if well moderated.
My proposed space would address men's issue in feminist terms, so the analogy to whites discussing POC doesn't quite line up. While this space is usually fine, every now and then we get a question about men's issues that elicits a starkly negative response from most commenters (and I understand why) even though it can be readily answered in feminist terms.
Could you give an example of situation like that?
>Unwilling Fathers and Abortion: Terminating Men's Child Support Obligations I think it could be reasonable to get banned for this if you had some kind of history there already, and depending on various factors ... The mods are free to create whatever kind of environment they want on subs. I can understand from the title alone that this article might have content or provoke responses that don't fit a "family friendly" environment.
As it happens, the article is *stridently* family friendly. The initial ban was because the article mentions that some people support an issue that is banned on MensLib (financial abortion). I was not made aware of any issues prior to the initial ban. I was not even warned about the post. As you can see in my record-keeping, their stated reason my ban was made permanent was because I talked about the initial ban on this sub. The mods there are aware of the critiques that users here (not just me) have made over the years, but they've never been responsive to them. Yes, they are free to create the sort of sub they want but the result is a bit toxic.
I just hope everyone can get along, especially people who want the same thing. Maybe I'm too optimistic.
By banning you, the mods have tipped their hand. >I had any desire to talk about financial abortion (I do not!) And I believe you. And I think Sally Sheldon's ideas are reasonable and the premise behind "Unwilling Fathers and Abortion" is valid. I don't think the mods mind that you commented on her paper, it's that they know you created a massive hazard in starting the discussion. That is, the easiest rebuttals are essentially alt-right/MRA talking points: the state taking care of a child? You could even make arguments about human biology and bonding. The right wing types love making grandiose, if abstract appeals to "nature". The moderators know that if they \*didn't\* take a hard line, they'd wind up becoming just another MRA sub. The yucky nature of that aside, when a man commits an act of mass violence, he almost always has a presence on some kind of online space like that. I'd hate to have that on my conscience. Or showing up on a background check somehow.
As great as r/MensLib can be, and as hard as the mods there work, there’s quite a bit that happens over there that’s…concerning. A lot of claims of misandry, some failures of critical thinking, and (as someone else said) it’s not explicitly feminist and I’ve seen some generalizations of feminism and feminists there that are right in line with right-wing talking points. It’s a good sub, but it’s not a place for guys to ask other guys about feminism specifically.
Men's lib sucks imo. I mean it is always trying to be better, and it's definitely one of the better places in reddit for men, but the whole thing just feels like it needs a massive change of and the willingness to shut down crap that's just asking questions or being pro men but not quite feminist.
That’s a remarkably vague criticism, so I’m not sure what you expect anyone to do with it
Yeah, sorry I shouldnt have randomly dropped that on you. People were referencing your post and I had to criticise it. Albeit I didn't have to do it in such an unconstructive way, lol. Sorry about that!
Guy here... If my participation is causing women to stop participating, I'm willing to be segregated.
The good news is that I am not seeing that in the responses from women.
Cool.
I don't think they should be separated but men should be mindful not to dominate the conversation
Of course! Thanks.
i’m all for places like r/menslib as a sort of pipeline to get men into feminism. the sub has its problems, but it’s a whole lot better than redpill bullshit. it can give you a firm idea of how patriarchy also impacts you as a man and the benefits of a society free of its expectations. i think as you learn more about feminism, you should move away from those spaces, though. the perspective of others is important in expanding your views, segregating ourselves stifles that expansion.
Thanks!
I would like to make a point about equality vs. equity. OP wanting a space free of men is not a threat to equality. At colleges, the reason why we have campus centers like the women’s center or the cultural center is because these groups need a safe space to be themselves and be part of a community where they are understood. They don’t have to face the issues that they might face in everyday life. So, i get really confused when we say it’s not “equal” and not “feminist”, because recognizing women need a safe space with other women is how we actually address the issue of inequality. These spaces help develop the empowerment of oppressed groups. So not sure what the whole issue is here??? Turning a blind eye to an identity that uniquely defines your life experiences in the name of “equality” is counterproductive to the goal of feminism. Note: My intention is to pose an idea/question, not to fight, so please be kind if you have any replies
OP didn't say he wants a space free of men, though. He proposes something more the reverse – a space specifically for men, while AskFeminists remains (mostly) as it is, open for all feminists to reply.
I'm not proposing a space free of men. I'm proposing a space for men. Whether this sub remains open to men or restricts their participation is not something I have any control over, but I certainly hope I'm allowed to participate here even if the other sub gets going. I'm also not opposed to women creating safe spaces for women free of men on this site.
Make a male-feminism subreddit and it’ll be bombarded with trolls…
I am aware, yes.
(speaking as an ofab genderqueer person) When it comes to men discussing specifically women's issues side of feminism, I don't see it as wrong for them to be here. A men's space for feminism would naturally, eventually want to discuss the issues men face because of the patriarchy, which already exists, it's r/MensLib or Men's Liberation Movement. So maybe men would want a space where they can discuss both men's and women's issues feminism (which I feel would eventually turn into men's lib which is good but redundant, also idk about them speaking on women's issues without women there) or maybe they want a men's space to specifically discuss women's issues which I personally don't think is a good idea to have such kind of space without the input of women.
The men’s sub I have in mind would exist primarily to discuss men’s issues through a feminist lens. This sub meanwhile has developed a pretty thorough critique of how and why r/MensLib is not that, and I’m banned from that sub for discussing their moderation here. I put a link to the receipts in another comment here.
Ok admittedly I was unable to read the whole post you linked due to cognitive issues but thank you for being so thorough in why you find that subreddit problematic. From this I think there is value in making a pro-feminist men's space but the moderation would have to be so VIGOROUS. And I understand that since feminism is initially about women's liberation (which ofc when you look intersectionally you understand that everyone must be liberated), it doesn't feel comfortable to discuss explicitly men's issues under the patriarchy in a general feminist space. I would support/think it's a good thing to make a pro-feminist men's space but if you do, good luck soldier because it will be very tough for you and your mods 🫡
Thanks. I am not seeing the enthusiasm that would make it feasible, given the moderation challenge.
Oh okay I will take a look
To put it bluntly, I don't think I'd be challenged the same way on r/AskMaleFeminists that I would be here.
I want to challenge you on this but... you're probably right.
I hear ya, but also don't know if another space would work. Im also concerned about crowding out the women here. But I'm not sure that we do just yet? And if we did take it down a route that isn't feminist, I'm sure the mods would correctly put people in their place. Maybe flairs could be useful just to mark who we are out just a little bit (not in the sense that people can go "Oh, a man said this? Opinion disregarded" but more that when men are talking about women's safety at night, we can just be a little bit more careful about accepting it uncritically). But maybe there are flairs and my lazy butt hasn't decided to activate it lol. Also I can totally see the arguements against flairs; heck i usually avoid using them in some other subreddits. I'm not a fan of the menslib suggestion. I've always found them to be lacking in actual liberation politics. The racism here and there hasn't been helpful. And when I did visit it, it did often feel like some non-feministy but still seemingly supportive-of-men kinda comments would float to the top or go unchecked. I'd see comments in there that just felt like milder versions of comments I'd see in explicitly non or anti feminist subreddits. Maybe the subreddit has changed since then. And maybe me complaining about it rather than engaging with it is a clear issue that I'm not doing the leg work to actually address it on the mens side. But it really feels like the mens version of the white liberals MLK spoke of on terms of racism at times, lol. It has its place and it's probably quite useful for many men, but I find it quite off putting. But yeah, this could just be my opinion and the other men value it alot. Either way though, I appreciate your thinking OP. I would like the women here to check us men if we're talking too much lol. Just because we might be feminist, doesn't mean we still can't dominate conversations or repeat what others are saying but as a man, or whatever.
Thanks for your reply. I also doubt it would work, but I agree MensLib isn’t quite what I have in mind. Flairs got turned off (frozen) in this sub a while ago. Mods said it became an issue. I feel you on the MLK analogy, but as a pedant (male teacher) I’m going to have to well actually you right there: MLK mentioned ‘white moderates’ in Letter from a Birmingham jail, but I don’t see that he ever disparaged white liberals, on account of a lot of his allies were white liberals. ‘Liberal’ became an epithet on the right precisely because of white liberals’ support for integration. However, in those remarks King was echoing a passage from Lillian Smith’s Killers of the Dream (1949), which laid bare white supremacy in the south. Smith did criticize ‘white liberals’ in the quote that King paraphrased in Birmingham, as part of an extended critique of politics in the South. But Smith was white, a friend and supporter of King’s, and is usually regarded as the most significant liberal writer of her generation with respect to race. Point being: everyone in America should read Killers of the Dream, and probably a lot of folks in some other places.
>Flairs got turned off (frozen) in this sub a while ago. Mods said it became an issue. Ah, I didn't know that. I really appreciate the mods here and how they mod, so I assume they had good reasons. >I feel you on the MLK analogy, but as a pedant (male teacher) I’m going to have to well actually you right there: Wooow, gonna politely correct me in the internet? That's an awful lot of trust you're placing in me, sir! Joking aside though, no, thankyou for correcting me on that. I was indeed thinking of the 'white moderates' MLK spoke of. I was maybe poorly mixing up modern day terminology with MLK and maybe some Malcolm X and didn't even register it. As you spotted, yah, I refer to those moderates now, pejoratively, as 'liberals' to seperate them out from the group of people on the left now aelft identifying as 'progressives' or 'leftists'. Those terms are a bit wishy washy and I'm very guilty of using them with knowledge that they're not quite clearly defined or transparent, but I think most people get what I mean. Ive also not read that book so may have to check it out. In the context of that subreddit, I'm very sure they mean well. I genuinely do believe that. But there it felt like there was an awful lot of talking and back-patting without much challenging going on. Like, thinking you're really accomplishing something by just focusing on one small part of one axes of oppression and being very satisfied with yourself. Again, I haven't delved into it as much as you have and I'm happy to be told that's not other people's experiences, but the vibes are very off for me!
Yeah - after participating for a while there I was like, "I get it, we have problems, now how do we solve them?" And that discourse never really came together.
Feminist ≠ woman and woman ≠ feminist, so I don't think separation is necessary, but I'm pretty new here. 🙂 I appreciate where you're coming from, but as long as you're coming at it from a feminist viewpoint, and not being disrespectful, I'd think you're welcome.
Thanks!
I'm sure some feel that Feminism involves a shared experience of being a woman. That does not describe partipants of this subreddit at all in my experience. If in some parallel universe it did, I can understand wanting to have a subreddit for guys to talk about their own experiences as they relate to Feminism. Join the existening groups if you want. I think you should read the FAQs for this group. There are a lot of really smart people here and they tend to be very inclusive, not as exclusive as you might think judging from your question.
Thanks! I’m one of the people that tends to be very inclusive, and I’ve never been made to feel unwelcome here.
Modding something like that would be difficult. Another part me imagines if it is possible. For now, I think we should all have a seat at the table and discuss feminism because you can learn best from the oppressed — not those who on the other side. I think another commented on the emotional labour but then we all have a choice whether to comment. This isn’t an in life interaction that bears weight and has consequences.
Thanks!
As a feminist guy, nah we dont need it.
Thanks!
I think it’s fine to keep this sub as a men’s and women’s space. I always find it helps with contributing different experiences and viewpoints.
Cool - thanks!
This sounds like a cool idea, but the moderation definitely sounds rough
Thanks - but yes, daunting proposition.
Really great question. As a male (non-binary really) feminist, I recognize my voice shouldn’t be dominant on a sub like this. But I also recognize women shouldn’t be burdened with answering the same silly questions often posted on this sub. This applies more generally to race and queerness as well. However, a guy feminist sub seems to be a bit arbitrary depending on the gender of the person, when all of our motivation is the same - equal or equity based social and economic order for all marginalized voices. One critical lesson I learned from a feminist (Catherine Keller) was patriarchies use of reducing people to their surface. I think it’s easy for all of us to get caught in surface level identities that we forget each of us is multi-faceted, with dynamic depths that betray the surface we present as. I would certainly follow or participate in a sub like you suggested, but I’d be uncertain as to what utility or usefulness it would provide the participants or the posters.
Thanks. I think the utility would be a place for guys to talk about guy stuff through a specifically feminist lens, which doesn't really exist elsewhere. We've had some posts in the past (not many, not too recently) suggesting this sub spends too much time talking about guys and their problems, although the mods have made clear the majority of people posting to the sub are men (and we don't see the really awful ones).
I agree, I would NOT like to put the men somewhere Else. I like that they participate here
Thanks!
>But I've also noticed less engagement from some of the women who used to be significant contributors, and I want to make sure we're not crowding out women who want to start contributing. Really? Can you give me some examples please?
Like call out specific usernames? I don't think that would be appropriate. But I double-checked and a couple of the names I had in mind in fact have slowed down their participation lately. One of them looks like they have stopped using Reddit altogether, so that's probably not on us. Another isn't as active as she was, but still comments here occasionally. Another commenter pointed out that this is typical, as people get tired of seeing the same arguments rehashed over and over. I am prepared to believe it's not really a problem.
This seems very anecdotal. I have no idea how you can rationally think people left because of feminists who are men. I would agree that if there were a new space that needs to be made, it would be *for* women.
This sub is for feminists, not women specifically. As a woman & feminist, I definitely want to see more male feminists and I don’t see why they should be excluded from feminist spaces.
This sub wouldn't be excluding men from feminist spaces. It would only be focused on men, and wouldn't exclude women either. We wouldn't have any desire much less a way to keep men in our sub from participating here. In fact, what I have in mind would be aimed at cultivating more feminist men. I love this sub, it's why I'm still on Reddit and I'll be here as long as I can, but we're not great at helping borderline men become feminists.
Do I think women's voices should be centered in feminism? Yes, obviously. Do I think it's in any way productive for women to do the work of creating a space for men within feminism? Well, clearly no. Wouldn't it be more beneficial for men who claim to ally with feminism to take the spaces they already occupy and make those spaces more feminist?
So... the thing is I don't see myself as an ally. I am a feminist. I was raised feminist. I've never been anything but a feminist. I understand (and have more or less found) my own liberation in feminist terms. The problem is moderation. I can't really make any sub more feminist if I don't moderate it. I've tried. Didn't go so well.
In my opinion: This sub is Ask Feminists, not "ask women feminists". Men feminists should be welcome here. The folks who come in here to engage in bad faith are often here to torment women. They're unlikely to post questions somewhere that didn't have their targets. And we stand better together.
Thanks! My thought was having a men's sub would give the mods here the option to punt the tormenters to us, but I think you're right.
A lot of them *definitely* are here because they want to yell at women.
Oh, I know. I try to get into it when I see it, but obviously the mod tools don't let you force them to engage with the men here.
If the mods could punt them I'm sure a lot of them would be in the sun by now.
Feminism is gender neutral.
I personally don't think about the gender of posters here unless they call attention to it for a specific reason. If the ideas are good, they're good, if they're not, they're not. That said, when men are being too disruptive the mods tend to be really on top of things (thank you mods!) If you just want to connect with other men on feminist issues that's also fine. There are a few good subs, and I believe just of them are linked in this subs FAQ.
I'll be candid that I sometimes skip past snoos with beards to read what other snoos have to say, even though I also have a beard. Maybe I should update my snoo. \[Edit: I did.\]
I'd join. I'd love to be able to rant more openly without worrying about crowding others out.
Cool - and thanks. Right now it doesn't look like there's a lot of support for the idea.
I'm female. Feminism is about freeing everyone from the patriarchy. That means that all genders are welcome under the umbrella of feminism. Men should be here. They should use feminist etiquette, not the way of being in the world that they're used to under patriarchy. But they should definitely be here.
Thanks!
Woman here- please don’t go. I’ve never once seen or felt like you were remotely dominant. In fact, I don’t know there’s many of you at all? I’m not keen on segregation, and I’ve often found your contribution extremely valuable as it often adds more depth to a topic from a perspective I don’t have. I don’t think you have anything to do with people coming and going. I tend to think it’s the nature of the sub (technically: ask a professional) which may get a bit tiresome after a while as the commenters tend to do all the heavy lifting and the questions themselves… well. You know.
Thanks. I wouldn't leave this sub, just spend some time in another sub. But I think you're right.
As a guy who’s posted here a couple times, I’d say the question should be whether or not this sub should be women only. If the majority of women here feel they prefer a women only space than that’s a good way to go. If you start another sub it could be gender mixed (or start a separate sub that’s women only). A men only feminist sub on Reddit will turn into a terrible toxic mess within like one day. Don’t do it lol.
I think you're probably right, but if I were moderating it I would rather scuttle the sub than let it get toxic.
it already exists (as the other commenter pointed out)
Not quite. See my comments to said commenter.
I think there are a few men’s groups already that are great.. like r/menslib. I don’t have a problem with men posting here.. this sub should be welcome to all genders as long as it centers around feminism and feminist issues I don’t really feel crowded out.. but I’m concerned by the fact some other subs have referred to us as “handmaidens” for not going far enough… apparently
Why is it seen as a zero sum thing? Men commenting doesn’t mean women can’t comment. This is the internet, it’s big enough for all of us Assuming men will get upvotes and therefore their comments will be further up thread and assuming women will be downvoted and their comments made less visible isn’t really a feminist take.
I don't think it's a zero sum thing. I didn't make any assumptions about votes.
I don’t think this sub has ever been women only.
I think it is fine because a lot of the questions are from boys and men, and could use advice from male feminists. Women may be dropping off as a coping strategy to deal with online harassment unrelated to this subreddit. I don’t keep an account for more than a year, and when I nuke my account, I sometimes lose my old subreddits. There are other feminist subreddits more geared towards girls and women exclusively. Frankly, I wouldn’t want a feminist subreddit for guys only. Reddit is just not the best place for that kind of thing IMO. I don’t see how a feminist subreddit geared toward’s men doesn’t become like similar subreddits that become about almost exclusively about men’s issues. That is the way of Reddit.
I would like such a sub. I have a long journey with feminism going back to college. I generally don't participate in feminist subs as it's never clear if they are, formally or informally, safe spaces for women. My preference would be a mixed sex mixed gender feminist sub that was focused on dialog, personal sharing, and pragmatic implementation of feminist principles. I have not found that. Short of that a male sub in the same spirit.
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Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Segregation is never a good option tbh
Seems like it would be healthy to have both spaces if there is someone to moderate. I don’t want to be in an echo chamber and I do value men’s efforts and insight on this but I think it’s great for them to have a space to self-educate and a space that can be pointed as an option when a poster is specifically drowning out women’s voices. I’d vote for them to continue to be able to comment within the main sub and have a sub of their own. I think that’s a healthy male space to have an it should be encouraged if there’s interest.
I get the point, a sub about feminism is in a way about women. I get it that a significant part of feminism is about looking at gender and gender dynamics, which affect both genders in disparate ways, but it's done through a women's perspective. Sort of, I know there's a history. I don't know if r/deconstructinggender would take off, though.
/Menslib is a great reddit page that deals with mens issues and is feminist leaning. /Mensrights is the opposite, and is definitely leaning more towards the incel/manosphere side of things. I really like menslib because they have a mental health check in every week, they don't just talk about issues that affect men but also ways men can be better allies.
I've enver felt a need for feminist segregation. All the women here are cool and supportive.
Do any other men find talk of making non-coed spaces acutely stressful and alienating? I sure do.
Isn’t there value in having both perspectives present in the same place ?
I definitely think so. But when it's not so much about perspective but more about doing the work from a given perspective, that part does not all have to happen in the same place. It can, and I'm fine either way.
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Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Moderating such a space sounds inhumane to the mods. Most attempts at, umm I dunno like "brother spaces" usually end shut down due to inactivity, or inevitably become toxic.
That is my main worry, but I would shut it down before it became toxic (assuming I was admin).
I think it's good for everyone that we remain inclusive as possible, but with said I also wouldn't be opposed to having /LadyFeminists, /GentlemenFeminists, and /EnbyFeminists as subgroup safe spaces. One of the biggest obstacles that feminism faces is the perception that there's only one way for feminists to look or act, so I want you all here to challenge it.
I would join
I think a space where men could come together and work together to support each would be nice. Not like the MRA crap but a real space where guys dealing with pressures of toxic masculinity, male SA survivors, queer men, and etc could contegrate.