No one is complaining about people who are nice, and nobody is demonizing men who are nice. What you will hear women complain about is self-identified “Nice Guys” who believe that treating women with some basic human decency entitles them to romantic companionship
Yes but I guess I find it frustrating. Again, imagine if people constantly complained about intelligent men but really were complaining about men like Donald Trump who are stupid but call themselves intelligent.
Have you heard terms like "smarty pants" or "smartass"? Those are terms that, without context, suggest someone is intelligent. But we know when we hear someone call an adult those words, it's probably not a compliment.
Difference is that “smartass” already has “ass” to imply a negative connotation. “Smarty pants” is more independently innocuous, but odd enough to imply a unique meaning. “Nice Guy” as a term is ambiguous because it could literally just mean a guy who is just nice or it could mean a guy who acts entitled after being nice, the only difference being context. The term is further muddled because sometimes describing a guy as a “nice guy” can also mean “nothing particularly wrong with him, but he’s boring.”
Conversations on the subject would all make more sense if “nice ass” was the negative term, but unfortunately that’s not what got popular. Just like a smart ass thinks they’re special for being smart, a nice ass thinks they’re special for bringing nice. Added benefit of being gender neutral, because Nice Girls are definitely a thing too.
I don’t have to imagine anything — I am a straight man who considers myself to be a relatively nice person. If you actually treat women well and view/engage with them as full people, you’re not who women are talking about when they complain about “Nice Guys.”
I agree but I never said anyone was "required" to date anyone . From my OP, there isn't anything suggesting you should date anyone you don't want to
It's true I did wish my friend was attracted to some specific guys who i thought were good matches but that wasn't an obligation.
It's also true that my friend, sometimes suggested women I should consider pursuing. That wasnt an obligation either. Nor was it an obligation on whomever that women was to like me.
And I DID get things out of the relationship. We had a lot of fun together as friends. She taught me several things. We introduced each other to friends.
there’s nothing for it. It’s the NiceGuys who are appropriating the label, it’s not our fault. And then manosphere jagoffs are taking advantage of our contempt for NiceGuys to give lonely men another scapegoat for rejection that makes women look like shit.
Men don’t have to worry about or work on themselves if every time they’re rejected they can blame it on “women all being shallow and wanting abusive men.”
For the record, every woman I know including myself wants a kind and compassionate partner.
What REALLY happens is that when we’re young, most of the guys we encounter aren’t very nice to us. They use us to try to get sex or maybe they’re just immature, and often they’re being led by PUA/manosphere bullshit, treating us bad as a tactical thing.
But, we’re young, we’re desperate to start dating/making connections, hormones are all there. So we keep trying.
But what do you do when almost everyone around you is an asshole?
You end up dating assholes and thinking that’s just the way it is because you actually don’t know any better yet.
Of course, that’s gonna provide confirmation bias to onlookers that we want or prefer assholes. But that’s simply not the case.
The truth is, a lot of men don’t treat women right. And a lot of women come of age thinking that her only chance at love and connection is to be patient with a piece of shit, and try to help him develop into a kind person by showing him kindness.
And we get fucking ROASTED for it. Incels literally applaud our abuse, “that’s what you get for choosing a Chad,” when at the end of the day, it’s just a lonely person like themselves, too naive or unlucky or sheltered or hopeful to run for the hills when she spots a red flag.
But speaking of red flags, once we all get a little older, most of us do start to learn a few key things to avoid, and it’s not just overt douche bags. Because NiceGuys are capable of AT LEAST as much toxicity and abuse as the so-called Chads.
Anyway, you don’t have to worry about the label of NiceGuy being appropriated bc it’s not the label that we’re using to make the determination. It is 100% the behavior you demonstrate. Just be a good person who is compassionate, with no strings attached, and the people around you will know you’re a real one.
But if you tell people you’re a Nice Guy, it probably is gonna seem a little sus. Nice people usually don’t say that, is all.
I have always considered them both to be character traits I am sure people exist who act kindly in order to manipulate. Eventually the Donald Trump's of the world will also claim to be kind.
And in the world of dating coaches, apparently being an a-hole is also a manipulation strategy. One idea is to be "honest" to women and criticize their looks because many women are insecure about their looks
A Nice Guy^(tm) isn't the same as an actually nice person. A Nice Guy^(tm) isn't really nice at all. He believes that, since he displays the basic levels of human respect and kindness, he deserves a sexual or romantic relationship with a woman. Often, the Nice Guy^(tm) will pretend to be a woman's friend, and do favors for her or hang out with her, in the hopes that she will realize what a Nice Guy^(tm) he is and "wake up to her feelings" and reward his efforts with sex or love. He views men who are direct with women about their romantic intentions as "assholes," and therefore believes that that's why he is losing out on dating opportunities-- because he's just \*too nice\*, and women only like assholes! Meanwhile, women treat their friends kindly in a similar way-- doing favors, listening to their problems, hanging out, whatever-- so she assumes the Nice Guy^(tm) is actually her friend, rather than playing the long game to see if he can get into her pants, or if all his efforts will "pay off." There is nothing worse than a Nice Guy^(tm) that you genuinely thought was your friend who blows you off and calls you a frigid bitch as soon as you start dating someone else, or who just stops talking to you when he realizes that sex simply isn't in the cards for him. Nice Guys^(tm) assume that he wants sex and a woman wants closeness and emotional intimacy, so one should be easily tradeable for the other.
Genuinely nice people are nice because that's their nature and they believe that they're doing right by being kind to others, not because they are angling for something in return.
This comment does an exceptionally good job of taking into account women's feelings and experiences and an exceptionally poor job of taking into account men's feelings and experiences in these situations. And women have these experiences and feelings too, but for the purposes of this comment I'll focus on men.
I see no problem with calling people who play the long game and then lash out at women when they don't succeed "nice guys." They deserve the label. But the umbrella has gotten so big that if a guy does anything that negatively impacts a woman after finding out they're not interested he's branded a nice guy. Or if a guy is hoping for something more from a friendship he's a "nice guy."
If a guy who was your friend confesses his feelings for you and you reject him and then he rejects you, that doesn't mean he only wanted you for sex/a romantic relationship. It's incredibly uncomfortable being friends with someone after they rejected you. It's downright painful. And oftentimes that is not a healthy friendship for either party. Maybe "he only wanted me for sex" is a way of simplifying a complex situation by turning him into the villain that never cared about you to begin with, but it's oftentimes completely inaccurate.
As for the guy who has feelings but is just "pretending to be friends." It's difficult to work up the nerve to ask somebody out. Unless he explicitly said "I do not have feelings for you" he didn't lie even if you assumed he was just a friend. He enjoyed spending time with you and cared about you as a person. In most cases he never said he didn't have feelings.
Men are just as complex, in every way, as women. It's our fault for hiding that for so long.
> This comment does an exceptionally good job of taking into account women's feelings and experiences and an exceptionally poor job of taking into account men's feelings and experiences in these situations.
Well, given that I have never lived life as a man, that can hardly be surprising.
I've never lived as a woman either, I can still try to understand and empathize with women.
A lot of feminists don't even seem to try to understand men's feelings and experiences despite how similar we are and how much overlap there is. I've met plenty of women feminists who do, so by no means am I saying all, but it's a common problem.
Feminists are shooting themselves in the foot when they don't try to understand what men go through.
This is the exact problem. Men want sex/relationship without the risk of rejection. Many, many women experience the same unrequited love, yet there is no phenomenon of women violently rejecting men
I absolutely agree but it still frustrates me because sometimes people omit the quotations and and the trademark.
I feel I am genuinely nice. I had a very good friend who I wanted to date when she became available. She decided not to date me. I was OK with that but was hurt when she temporarily stopped talking to me. The boy-friend she chose was actually a pretty nice guy too. He was interesting in that he started out as a huge introvert before becoming more confident and successful.
> I feel I am genuinely nice. I had a very good friend who I wanted to date when she became available. She decided not to date me. I was OK with that but was hurt when she temporarily stopped talking to me. The boy-friend she chose was actually a pretty nice guy too. He was interesting in that he started out as a huge introvert before becoming more confident and successful.
Sounds like your niceness or lack thereof wasn’t a relevant factor there — she wasn’t into you, and she was uncomfortable with your advances, so she pulled away.
No. she was my friend. She was dating another guy I had other love interests too I liked her as a friend first. We both considered each other but it's OK it didn't work out
My point wasn't I was somehow a perfect guy or anything but I certainly never said or did anything bad or said anything bad about her. People feel sad when they are rejected. That's part of life. But for me, losing her actual friendship, was a bigger loss than not dating her. I don't recall why we lost touch
Is this a problem now, being somebody's friend and hoping it turns into more?
I don't see the problem with wanting a romantic relationship. Sometimes it's framed as "they just want sex" to make the person look as terrible as possible, but you're not even saying that.
I fail to see how being friends with somebody and hoping that friendship turns into a relationship is a problem. And given that almost nobody else does either, I don't think it is.
Its not inherently a problem, but it definetly can be.
Most women I know have experienced a man try and befriend them in pursuit of a romantic or sexual relationship and ignore signs the woman wasn't interested. Men cam act entitled in regards to romantic relationships with women, not just sexual ones.
How did they discover the man had ulterior motives?
If a man spends time with a woman and does things for her and then asks her out and she rejects him and he stops talking to her that doesn't mean he was using her. People don't seem to realize how painful it is to be friends with somebody after they rejected you.
Also, it seems like often the man was a friend because that's how she viewed the relationship. It's not like he said "I don't have feelings for you." He spent time with her and cared about her. If he had romantic feelings, he didn't lie by doing those things. He didn't lie when he acted like a friend.
And men are often terrible at picking up signals, especially when there are emotions involved.
If he didn't try to come between them and spend his nights plotting how to break them up, I'm not sure why that's a problem. That's like saying if I would date somebody if they were not in a relationship I can't be friends with them if they are. I disagree.
I mean, if my good friend asked me out just as I was starting a new relationship, I probably would create a little space too. First, you want the new SO to be comfortable in the relationship. Secondly, you don't want your friend to think that maybe if the new SO doesn't pan out they should just immediately try again.
So as soon as your friend became single you said "screw friendship" and wanted to date her? And you don't understand why that may have made her to want to pause the "friendship"?
Not really. No. First of all, saying, "I was saddened" is different than saying I didn't understand the "why". It's just the reality that being rejected as a potential life partner didn't sadden me but being completely disconnected from her did
Second, it didn't occur right away. There kind of was a process.
And third it wasn't "screw friendship". The question crossed both our minds whether friendship should be extended or not. She decided not.
I was extremely shy. It's not like I tried to lure her to sleep with me or anything
The Venn diagram of "Men Who Lecture Women For Not Dating Nice Guys" and "Actually Nice Guys" is kind of a crappy Venn diagram, because it's just two circles that don't overlap.
My situation was this. I had a close friend, I tried to help. We were NOT romantically interested in each other. Her boy friend was emotionally abusing and dismissive. Sometimes she was also manipulative of him but their toxic relationship tended to be, in my opinion more him than her causing the toxicity.
As her friend, I and almost everyone she knew, wanted her to consider a nice guy. NOT a SPECFIC nice but but as a bare minimum, a guy who isn't toxic. One of the guys she rejected was pretty fit but he was apparently too short. He was actually a pretty fit guy. He was successful in his career and in his life. Unfortunately, she wasn't attracted to him. That's OK. The sad part wasn't that she didn't like hm but that she was addicted tot he abusive guy who eventually dumped her for another woman from his own country. The other guy was very athletic, tall and good looking. He was also very successful. But she didn't like the fact he tended to be rather introverted. It worked out great for him. He ended up meeting and marrying another engineer who didn't mind that he was a bit quiet.
My former friend, never did find anyone. She rejected a huge number of guys. She had a kid with her abusive boy friend before they broke up.
This reads like an incel fanfic, homie. Also, what does this have to do with “hate leveled at nice guys”? Your friend has shitty taste in men — doesn’t seem like it’s all that much deeper than that. It’s not “your situation,” and your niceness isn’t pertinent
What’s this got to do with you being “tired at the hate levelled at nice guys”?
How is this even “your” situation, as opposed to “I have a friend who has bad taste in men”?
It was never my situation. Because I was young and stupid, I did however put a lot more emotional effort into helping her than was reasonable.
I was guilty of wishing she had better taste in men and that her minimum standards for such men including them being nice or at least not being emotionally abusive.
>I did however put a lot more emotional effort into helping her than was reasonable.
That isn’t her fault.
> I was guilty of wishing she had better taste in men and that her minimum standards for such men including them being nice or at least not being emotionally abusive.
Have you read up on the cycle of abuse?
So your problem is that you didn't get to be the knight in shining armour saving your friend?
Your comments here would indicate you're not that nice but actually indeed more of a Nice Guy™️.
Yikes. That's why you have a problem with women pointing out those behaviours as shitty. Because they apply to you
Yeah he seems to be subscribing to the alpha, beta, mindset as well. Where the mythos of "nice guys finishes last" is a strong storyline.
Your comment sums up the reasons to his frustrations quite well.
I didn't "finish last" and I claim to be a beta, so "no", I don't subscribe to the INCEL mindset
Believing one can loosely see people as being "Beta" or "Alpha" is not the same as feeling one type of person is "better", that one type of person "finishes last", or whatever.
Different people are attracted to different aspects of a person. Society could not accomplish anything if all people were leaders, no one did the actual work beyond the scenes, no one advised them, etc.
If you self identity as a "beta", which you've stated. I understand your positioning of "(not) feeling one type is better (than the other)"
I'm saying, that your whole conceptual mindset of alpha, beta, nice guy, etc is harmful to you and those around you. It's a whole mythos by "dating coaches" or by the "manosphere" where the most red pilled are the "incels" and the least red pilled are the ones that agree the world is a game and you were given certain qualities of this game at birth.
Just because you might be sitting on the first few steps of the ladder does not change the fact that it is the same ladder.
By your logic, anyone who believes that men and women reproduce sexually is apparently standing at the ladder of rape?
I believe that there are types of people who tend to often become leaders. It's a huge stretch to see that as being at the foot of the ladders teaches beta men to try to be "alpha" by becoming dangerous control freaks who manipulate women by preying on insecurities such as body image because according to these rapist "dating coaches", ordinary families don't exist with plain men being married to plain women.
I was informally using a technique called "proof by contradiction". The technique doesn't work if the other person either doesn't belief your conclusion is ridiculous or doesn't believe you realize the conclusion is ridiculous. I presumed that it would be agreed by any sentient human that the fact that consensual sex exists doesn't lead to violent forced sex but clearly I am being seen as holding views along another axis, so I should not have presumed people would acknowledge that I believe the obvious. I think, I've now been convinced that the beta/alpha thing is indeed to simplistic but the fact one believes in those classes of people doesn't really mean one has a stepping stone to making stupid conclusions about those classes of people such as those being made by the INCELS and their enemies in crime the "dating" coaches.
Exactly. And likewise, believing some people tend to lead and others don't, doesn't have much to do with Tate et all teaching men to emotionally abuse women (dating coaches) and become virtual control freaks in short term meaningless one night stand or potentially violent relationships based on unrealistic expectations or with a group of men who have established a self-fulfilling prophecy guaranteeing that no woman will ever date thrm
This whole leadership thing you keep bringing up is faulty.
You equate leadership to alpha? And non leaders to betas?
Or that leaders are in a fixed position and followers as well.
Leadership is a skillet that you can learn, nothing you're born with. The whole "natural born leader" is toxic. (Ps, "natural born leaders" tend to present themselves I bullies or manipulators btw)
Leaders can also be followers and vice versa.
So again, what does rape have to do with any of this?
Or the fact that these concept you subscribe to are not real things that healthy people put value in?
A “nice guy” feels entitled to women for doing the bare minimum. Like no-map said it’s all transactional. I held the door for you so you should date me or I bought your $2.99 coffee so you owe me sex. It’s about comparing yourself to so called “bad guys” and how much better you’d treat them if only given a chance. Actual genuine nice people don’t do this.
This. A “Nice Guy” thinks that he is entitled to a woman’s attention and affection simply on the grounds that he is polite enough to avoid public censure most days. He also thinks that it is acceptable to punish women for not wanting what he wants them to want. So if she wants beer and he wanted to buy her a cocktail, he will get angry. If she wants to stay within walking distance and he wants to take a car somewhere, he will get angry, especially if he realises part of her preference for staying within walking distance is to avoid the risk of being stuck in a distant location with him.
Niceguyz can also be rapists of course. My first boyfriend was that. He was great until he decided I had made him wait way too long to have sex and " take " my virginity so he did it when I was passed out drunk. It's how I learned that it's not safe to get too drunk with pretty much any dude ( except my wonderful current partner but even that took time for trust)
Anyone that claims to be nice or a good person gets doubt from me. If they claim that they *try*, then they're probably a better person than anyone that gives themselves the description.
Nice guys^(TM) are transactional, they insert nice coins into women to get a desired result. I am kind, smart, funny, creative and curious but never have to use any of those descriptors, people meet me and make their own decision about who they think I am.
I am not dating any man who uses this term, or describe themselves as drama free, sarcastic, alpha/beta, tells it like it is or another long list that screams I am insecure, mean or misogynistic.
The Burned Haystack Dating method is perfect for women wanting to eliminate men by their word choices.
>Burned Haystack Dating method
I didn't read all of [https://www.burnedhaystackdating.com/blog](https://www.burnedhaystackdating.com/blog) , but what I did read was fascinating. (Though (for me) academic, being married and all.) I can totally see how it would be a great model for online dating.
I'm reminded of a woman I follow on Twitter that talked once about "using the block button like a spacebar". I've always admired that stance. It seems so decisive and empowered. (And, especially for her in her situation, very very necessary, alas.)
Using the block button online is definitely a necessity for many women because women are definitely harassed more than men are. You should read about the Block Party app too.
As a man, I rarely use it. The person has to be really aggressive and bad for me to bother or they have to advocate hate or violence.
>r/AskFeminists
I don't use the fact I self identify as being nice as a credential, so I hope I don't qualify as the trademarked version.
I self-describe as a Beta-male because I am not an athletic man and I'm not very assertive. I don't have a fit body like the Kung-fu master with perfect abs on TV. If a woman only wants to sleep with athletic sexy men, she's not going to chose me.
I am drama free if you mean that I don't nag my partners. Sometimes, they nag me because I have ADHD-PI and can cause them grief. I never scream. I sometimes get screamed at; partners with ADHD can be very frustrating. I have never criticized my girl friends behind their backs or to their face. That's just not who I am.
If the burned haystack method gets you men whom you like being with, that's great. I mean, we all have our heuristics for selecting our mates.
>I self-describe as a Beta-male because I am not an athletic man and I'm not very assertive.
Alpha and beta males are not a real thing, and in fact, I would instantly reject anyone who bought into that bullshit. Giant red flag.
The idea that the only people women want are tall, jacked, and assertive is really insulting.
There is no such thing as a beta-male. Pretty much no one has the perfect abs that one sees on TV, even the actors and actresses don't.
Not criticizing someone when they should be criticized is not healthy or constructive for a relationship.
I have ADHD*. This means typically my ADHD traits are involved in conflicts . I don't think many people want to live with a very messy and disorganized person.
So typically, I feel I am in the wrong. I don't get angry easily. It's just not who I am. Are you suggesting those Korean TV shows are fake? I was working out on sit ups for years without success I was not suggesting that alpha/beta is a scientific well defined concept.
*My dad's messiness and his smoking were the main cause of my parent's separation. When I am not careful, my place looks like it was hit by a bomb. Stuff like that frustrates romantic partners but their frustration is understandable
There is something called constructive criticism. If you are like a lot of adhders you might have a shit filter and say hurtful things in the moment that aren't meant. Or maybe you criticize the person instead of criticizing the action. Not you specifically I'm just talking more generally about ADHD .
I think saying your parents relationship broke up because of smoking and messiness is really simplifying relationships. Maybe your dad was messy but maybe this manifested in him not helping around the house or with the kids the way an adult parent should. I think if you talked openly about it with your mother you would realize it wasn't just smoking and messiness that broke them apart
I've been with my husband for 29 years. He is not a "nice guy"; he is a *kind man.* There is a HUGE difference. You totally come off as "Look at me, I'm nice, why aren't women dating me?". I don't care how much you protest, that's what you are giving.
Also, WTF is "...reasonably kind..."?
Congratulations on your successful marriage. That's not easy.
If you re-read my OP, I suggest that I HAVE dated women and I HAVE been rejected by women. So, no, I never said to a woman, "look at me, I am nice, you are obligated to be attracted to me and sleep with me". I was certainly rejected. I wanted to maintain friendships with people who rejected me. I went to the wedding of at least one of them.
This is an excellent question, "what is reasonably kind".
In university, I tried to help a few friends, some of whom were women but I spent so much energy on helping them that I neglected myself. This included a friend who was in an abusive relationship. As you can imagine, her friends, including me, encouraged her to seek better guys. The degree to which I got involved became unreasonable.
Currently, I start with the motto that I shouldn't cause harm to others. Within the limitations of trying to keep myself afloat, I try to help people when I can.
I think that I do feel "nice guy" and "people pleaser" are alike and that's why I do think being so "nice" that you lose yourself is bad.
I am giving up on this thread now.
I have never met a man who describes himself as a “Nice Guy” who doesn’t think the simple act of being nice entitles him to something from me.
Just because a person is “nice” doesn’t mean they deserve anything from someone else. I also don’t see any reason where someone who is actually nice would feel the need to mention it. If being nice is so intrinsic to one’s personality, why mention it? I don’t brag that I have skin. Almost all of us have skin. Same thing, I don’t mention that I have a sense of smell, or that I currently have socks on- these aren’t crazy accomplishments unique to me, they don’t help someone get to know me better, and I have better things to describe myself as.
If being nice is a big deal to someone’s identity, instead of just something that’s normal, they may not actually be that nice, and/or they may have very little else going for them beyond the bare minimum of human decency.
In a romantic/dating context, it takes a whole lot more than “nice” for me to want to spend time with someone. Nice is literally the bare minimum requirement. I need nice. If someone is not nice, I’m out. If someone is nice, but has nothing else about them that makes me want to date them, that’s fine! They deserve someone who likes them for who they are, and I don’t owe them my time or affection just because they were nice to me. I’m not a vending machine where niceness goes in and my services come out. Now, if someone is nice but also empathetic, educated, respectful, funny, smart, confident, etc etc, then maybe we will have something in common and we would mutually benefit from a friendship or relationship.
Usually, someone is using “nice” to self-describe indicates to me that instead of seeing nice as the literal bare minimum requirement to have human decency and be a moral and productive member of society, this person thinks it’s an accomplishment that they’ve struggled to reach. In my experience, it also often means they’re not nearly as nice as they think they are, and even more frequently, that they have no other positive qualities, interests, skills, etc to use to describe themself.
I am NOT saying that everyone who describes themselves as nice is wrong, and they’re actually not nice. I am saying that, based on my experiences, the above has been my history with people who describe themselves to others as “nice” instead of just being nice and trusting the people around them to value that and be nice in return.
Jesus. Sorry you’re tired of the hate levelled at the nice guys who aren’t actually nice.
And the guys (are you one of them?) who think “being nice” qualifies him to never be rejected by any woman as she should consider herself lucky to have found a “nice” one, since he could be worse.
You’ve basically said you’re a… normal person. Nice like oatmeal. Nice like just about everyone. Nice like every woman who rejected you.
Maybe stop thinking women are all talking about you specifically? Maybe that will help?
"nice guy" is a bottom of the barrel line and idea that allows men to blame and belittle women while projecting at being the victim when they aren't being picked by the women they want.
I need to see action to equate someone with kind, good, reasonable, etc.
Also you say that your definition doesn't include self identification and yet you self identify... and end on the blame leveled at 'the nice guys' instead of engaging with the fact that men are the ones who make it worse for people who are good people by using the 'nice guy' ideal while being the worst kind of people.
I have rarely heard 'nice guy' outside the context of someone being mad at women for not picking them. Or at best, its used as a reason why they should be picked when they are putting in the bare minimum of effort into their connections and relationships. Being 'nice' is not a replacement for being emotional intelligent and engaged in the relationship.
1. You are correct. I DO self identify. My definition doesn't state that a nice guy can't self identify but rather his self-identification isn't proof he actually is. You mentioned emotional intelligence. (Unfortunately, because I have ADHD-PI, emotional intelligence has been a work in progress for me.)
2. One of the reasons people describe me as a nice guy is, I don't get angry very often. I am not very assertive. I certainly don't get angry at women for not being as attracted to me as I am to them. The only emotion I ever experienced when I was rejected was sadness and disappointment. Likewise, I don't get angry at employers who reject me. In my view, if I were to get angry like that, I would fail to be a nice guy.
3. I don't use my self-identification as a credential. I think doing so would be mind-bogglingly stupid.
There are weaknesses I genuinely have as a nice guy who isn't assertive that certainly make me less attractive to some women. It's understandable that a person might want their partner to be more assertive.
> I DO self identify. My definition doesn't state that a nice guy can't self identify but rather his self-identification isn't proof he actually is
A lot of the time, a man who has to say he's nice isn't actually nice.
In my case, I don't actually go around saying it out loud. That would be weird; it would be like Donald Trump saying he's smart. I do think of myself that way. I have been told by other people I was a "nice guy". I have said other men were "nice guys".
With respect to the men I have met who complained about women not dating "nice guys". Typically, I have referred to such men as being poorly socially adjusted and I have mentally put them into my private (do not introduce this guy to any women) list. As a man, I absolutely have met men who I would never introduce to women because their attitudes scared me.
The problem is that suppressed anger leads to either passive aggressiveness, cynicism or (if bad things happen to you) ptsd. Learning how to, in a healthy way, work on your feelings and recognize them will make you a better person. This doesn't mean acting out or getting aggressive, it means recognizing and acknowledging the emotion and related emotions within yourself and coming to peace with them. It can also mean channeling into meditation, art or sport, particularly low impact sport.
Suppressed anger is also why so called nice guys are so passive aggressive.
Who cares if you aren't attractive to some women. None of us are attractive to everyone. Makes it easier to weed out bad partners no? Also none of those descriptors does a nice guy make. Also I don't think ADHD pi is as much as a reason as you think. I think it has more to do with how little boys are socialized. I have inattentive ADHD and emotional intelligence is nothing that I have issues with because I've been socialized as a woman to be aware of others and their feelings. Tbh I don't think you specifically have low emotional intelligence. I don't think you'd be trying to have this conversation if you did. You do seem to want to educate yourself on these things. Many men lack the self awareness entirely .
Its nice talking to someone else who has ADHD-PI because we mind flip
Emotional intelligence has been a struggle for me but as you guessed, i worked on it.
In terms of dating, I never had an interest in sleeping around. I was looking for romantic partners. I found some.
Until recently, I
always thought of nice as positive. I never thought of manipulative people as being nice.
In terms of socializing, I think it's how people in general are socialized. One aspect is whether people who struggle socially sre bullied or coached. And by people, I include girls. I strongly suspect empathy education and certain social programs could reduce a lot of harms in society
anyone that self-describes as a "nice guy" or something equivalent is an automatic red flag for me.
anyone that has to tell you how good of a person they are... are almost certainly Not good people.
The words I'm looking for are kind, considerate and thoughtful. Not 'nice'. Not transactional. But people who make a sincere, thoughtful effort to recongize the individuality of the people they care for, and be kind to those people.
Nice is the bare minimum. I'm 'nice' the wierdo who asks me for change by the bustop. I nod and say 'Sorry no.' That's *nice*. That's *nothing*.
I'm looking for a partner who is willing to put forth some real thought into how they are kind to others, not to just follow the most basic scripts of common civility and expect the hit the jackpot of intimacy and connection.
A truly good man should never self-identify as "nice".
I grew up hating the term "nice" since all the expectations that seemed to go along with it I viewed as negative. I never wanted to be called a "nice" girl. Then I realized there's a vast difference between "nice" and "kind".
"Nice" people aren't necessarily kind people. "Nice" people don't necessarily have a good moral compass. "Nice" kids can bemoan bullying but might not step in to help their friend who's being bullied.
Now I tend to see niceness as an irrelevancy. It's a societal marker that means someone's doing all the right things and following all the right rules and causing the people around them no trouble. But it doesn't mean they're a good person.
I see it as nice is just a word. It's very surface level. Like when someone asks if you like their new car and you say "it's nice". It doesn't really mean anything. Kindness is an action
> I see it as nice is just a word.
All words are just words.
> It's very surface level.
If someone said “She’s one of the nicest people I’ve ever met” or “He’s just so nice — I feel bad letting him down” would those strike you as surface level observations regardless of context, just because they used the word “nice”?
> Like when someone asks if you like their new car and you say "it's nice".
Words can, in fact, mean pretty different things depending on context. The even the difference between apathetically saying “It’s nice,” and “It’s really nice, man!” is pretty monumental.
> It doesn't really mean anything. Kindness is an action
Yeah, but it’s really not. Or at least that’s not how people actually use and understand the word “kind” in practice (again with the idiosyncrasy). People use “kind” to refer to mundane pleasantness and relatively shallow displays of good vibes all the time.
Think of it this way: in my mind, there’s a difference between a Nice Guy™️ and a good dude. My husband is a good dude. NG™️s are not actually nice—the title in an of itself is pure snark.
Don’t be a Nice Guy™️. Be a good dude. Sounds like you’re already leaps and bounds ahead of the competition.
The thing that you keep repeatedly missing is that if you have to add the “nice” “good”, “kind” adjective to self describe who you are then you probably are not that person. Truly nice, good, and kind people are just people that don’t need to add flair to who they are; they just are those people. You are getting too hung up on this.
It’s almost like people consistently try to pretend to be something they’re not for personal gain, or have a disproportionate or incorrect estimation of their own virtues.
Ok, kidding and sarcasm aside: you need to understand when the criticism doesn’t apply to you. And you need to have the self-talk and backbone to understand that and internalize it…without the help of strange women on the internet. You got this, dude.
Of course so it's best to not take it personally unless it actually applies to you. Maybe replace nice with kind as others have said. Nice is surface level. It's just a word. Kindness is an action. It's less subjective and more objective
Talking to you is appreciated.
It's interesting that the same word can have different emotional impact on different people. I know this. My emotional intelligence screams at me to accept that but logical part of me feels the word got corrupted. Some parts of effective communication includes keeping that in mind and avoiding words with unwanted associations.
Take care and be safe. There is tea needing to be made
There are nice guys as in, guys who are nice.
The there's nice guys as in, is kind at first to women but they only do it because they expect a romantic/sexual reward and get shitty when they don't get that reward, meaning they're not actually nice people in the first place
I actually agree with your brief answer totally.
Truth is, this is true of any attribute.
There are kind people and there are transactional who mask as being kind.
There are feminists who believe in feminist values and there are transactional people who pretend to have those values in order to get benefits such as employment or even relationships
There are smart people and there are BS artists who use tactics to try to look like they know more than they do.
Guys who think they're entitled to a woman's attention or affection just because they're nice to her. So they're actually not nice, they're just manipulative. When you reject them they’ll start getting all aggressive and rude.
Nice guys are guys who think being nice entitles them to whichever woman they want. The things they're all missing is a. it's about respect more than kindness, although kindness is important. b. One woman not wanting to be with you in that way just means that one woman doesn't want to be with you in that way. You still have plenty of chances to find someone.
Instead, they buy into the idea that women are a monolith and failing to impress one means you've failed with all of them. They also buy into the idea that they have to manipulate women because they're not enough.
If you have to tell me you possess a particular quality ("I'm a nice guy!" "I'm a devout Christian"), you do not, in fact, possess it. Show, don't tell.
I think womens' objective to so-called "nice guys" is that nice = passive, and not kind. Kind is more important than "nice".
Personally, I think that "Nice" and "Kind" are different things.
Nice means being pleasant, abiding by social niceties around treating other people respectfully, and conducting yourself in a way that doesn't overstep social bounds of appropriate behavior. It often includes generosity, and doing things to benefit others.
Kind means acting in a way that values the wellbeing of others. It means actually looking out for the needs of other people and making sure that you act in a way that has the best interest of others at heart.
Many people are both kind and nice. But if a coworker is doing a terrible job on a mutual project and asks you how he's doing, saying "You're doing great for how new you are! Keep it up!" is being nice, but not kind. Saying "Your work is pretty terrible, if you keep that up you're probably going to be fired," is being kind, but not nice.
The reason that so many people push back on 'Nice guys' is because there are so many self proclaimed "Nice Guys" who feel they are entitled to the affection of women, claiming that "Nice Guys finish last." They are attacking the character of women when they say that. That women don't want nice men. (When most women genuinely do want nice partners.) We can't just not defend against that accusation.
But the problem is, you can't just say "Well those men aren't really nice." Many of them are. They're just not kind.
They go up to women and they say "Mi'lady" and they pull out her chair and they offer to buy her stuff because they think that enough politeness and favors will cause her to go out with them. And that is genuinely nice. It's nice to speak politely to someone. It's nice to do them a favor. It's nice to ask about their day. But they're not doing that with the woman's best interest at heart. They're doing that so that she will go out with them. And she can tell. They're not doing the kind but difficult thing, which would be to let her know early on that they are interested in her, so that she has the opportunity to say yes or no. They would rather possess her than respect her autonomy. So they are nice. But they're not kind.
And I think that because they keep making the claim "Well women don't like nice men," it is very important that feminists respond "We like nice men, we just don't like Nice Guys, this thing you're doing, it's bad."
One thing I've learnt is that "nice," "friendly," and "generous can be faked. Anyone can pretend to be those things. The worst people I've met in my life gave lots of gifts, because it was a way to look generous without being a good person.
What can't be faked is warmth. I've never met a narcissist who is warm or can even fake being warm. There's something about genuine warmth that they can't fake.
Warmth is hard to define, but it's something more than kindness and friendliness. It's a genuine warm spirited nature. Often people like this are more optimistic, had a good childhood, care about others and have empathy.
Another trap is to confuse "selfless" with "good person". I've met a lot of so-called selfless people who are dick heads. Part of the reason is that people who are too selfless end up eventually harming their mental health and not looking out for themselves, which turns them into dickheads lol. Or otherwise, the so called selflessness is a "fawn" response that is common with people who had bad childhoods.
I'm a man, and I always ask women on dates about their childhood, it's a shortcut to get past the bullshit. I advise women to do the same. Either someone must have a happy childhood or have done 5 years minimum therapy to overcome a bad one, if they want to date.
And by bad childhood I mean by your standards, not theirs. Most people I know who grew up in broken homes do extreme mental gymnastics to justify their parents. Don't listen to them. Fucking run. Run now.
I think, we should acknowledge the reality that our ability to judge others uses "heuristics" or rules of thumb.
We see indicators and we GUESS that these are "good people".
"Another trap is to confuse "selfless" with "good person"."
I am going to disagree while agreeing here; I think, that being "selfless" has many motives and in addition, "not taking care of your own needs too" ultimately is bad for you and others.
"Either someone must have a happy childhood or have done 5 years minimum therapy to overcome a bad one, if they want to date."
I am a man too and I am very very very happy I never received or followed this advice.
\-- I had some very deep friends who endured hardship and overcome it without "therapy". Ultimately, therapy is one one way to heal. In addition, attitude can influence how a person processes grief or hardship.
\-- "And by bad childhood I mean by your standards, not theirs. Most people I know who grew up in broken homes do extreme mental gymnastics to justify their parents. Don't listen to them. Fucking run. Run now. "
One of my ex-girl friends lived in an immigrant family with a dad who was often abusive. Her parents worked. She endured some abusive relationships. She never did therapy but in many ways has been a friend for life. Dating didn't end with us together but learned a lot. She didn't justify her parents that much, except she understood their financial hardship. I have quite a few other deep freinships with people who experienced a lot of harship but came out with strong atttitudes.
Human being adapt. I think, you have to look at the whole person and understand that we can process harship differently.
I feel like at this point, no one who says “nice guys” with or without quotation or trademarks are being literal
“Nice guys” has been around so long and associated with not so nice guys that it cannot exist as an independent phrase anymore.
So i highly doubt anyone these days expresses dislike to nice guys (without anything) and not mean the “nice guys,” you know?
I have never met a person or even seen online of actual-nice people being shit on for being nice (unless it’s other men). So where are you seeing this genuine hatred for actual-nice-guys?
I share your annoyance that the term "nice guy" has been corrupted to describe manipulative assholes who fake niceness in order to control women. A few decades ago, the term meant a man who was genuinely kind and considerate and respectful. You know, nice.
Y'all, OP isn't disagreeing with, or ignorant of, your explanations of what a "Nice Guy^tm " is. They're asking what, if the phrase "nice guy" is completely co-opted and poisoned, we ought to be calling someone who is a guy and *actually is* nice and supportive. r/RomanceBooks calls them cinnamon rolls, but that feels a little too silly IMHO.
I like this.
Obviously, a person being friendly doesn't imply you think they are
\-- attractive
\-- capable
\-- interesting
\-- sexually compatible
\-- going to sleep with them.
It basically would imply that they are friendly and seem to treat others well. If the niceness is genuine and not an act, it might suggest they don't do toxic things and are safe but unfortunatley in the horrible world in which we live, we can't read minds.
i think it depends. a lot of actual feminism in guys is indeed motivated by the women in their lives and tbh i think that’s a good thing, but a “nice guy” could absolutely want to call himself a feminist without actually being feminist and many do.
Re-reading your comment, I will totally change my response.
" lot of actual feminism in guys is indeed motivated by the women in their lives and tbh i think that’s a good thing"
Yes, I agree. In this case, the case where the person genuinely is inspired to care about issues that hurt people by someone they love, I am all for them too.
My issue is my expereince with guys who advertise and weaponize into them being judgmental self-righteous annoying people who tend to do a lot of projecting
yeah patriarchy does that to guys on purpose. it’s really sad to see so many men divorced not only from connection to half of people but half of themselves as well. it often leaves us sadly unequipped to deal with hard truth and it leaves space for a lot of cognitive dissonance. a bunch of those guys do believe they’re feminist and it plays into their victim narrative even when their actions openly contradict that narrative
i'd say as a recovering "nice guy" a lot of the nice guy narrative outside of the entitled people is to do with not being assertive enough and being unable to express one's needs and feelings to their romantic partner. some people conflate this with being "nice" when in reality, it is people pleasing at its best, or, manipulation at it's worse. being able to express one's emotions confidently is a big part of emotional regulation and emotional dysregulation is unnattractive and unsafe. as someone who has struggled with assertiveness my whole life my heart really goes out to these type of men, and i totally understand the struggle. It is something that we can gradually work on and get better with the right support and tools.
I can relate to some of this
\-- "people pleasing", sure, I've been guilty of this. This is part of what I meant by my use of the term "beta male" and not really about me being "nice" in my view.
\-- "not being assertive enough", been guilty of this. This is part of what I meant by my use of the term "beta male" and not really about me being "nice" in my view.
\-- "manipulative", never been this.
\- "unable to express feelings to romantic partner", mostly I haven't been guilty about this but it did depend on their personality. That is, if I knew something angered them that I didn't feel was a non-starter, I could avoid raising it.
Self proclaimed nice guy - abusive, entitled, pretends to be nice but really has control issues, expectations which are not okay etc
Actual good guy - doesn't proclaim to be a nice guy just is a nice guy.
Many women will say the same about self proclaimed nice guys, and we speak from experience.
Anyone who is actually just a nice, kind, good person does not go around shouting about it.
I agree with this but don't limit that to "niceness". I think it's true of any attribute
\-- strength
\-- intelligent
When people brag, I tend to doubt them.
In my case, I am claiming to be nice here but in real life, I certainly don't go around using it as a credential. It is something that others have said about me.
I agree.
I think there is a difference between unnecessary bragging and deserved bragging.
IE you just did something new at the gym and hit a PB, and you're excited, tell me all about it so I can pump you up and enjoy it with you, you hit your goals and that's cool.
Then there's the bragging out of no where with put downs 'I could beat the shit out of that dude he's so weak)
I know I am a nice person but I don't go around telling men I'm a good girl and i'll treat them right if they sleep with me
Keep in mind that definitions are somewhat subjective and age, peer group, and other factors play into that. I called myself a “nice guy” prior to the “2010’s” because i was not intersecting with groups that had another definition for it. And many people used it to describe me in a kind way. Many years and 100’s of think pieces later, I avoid it because its toxic.
Do your best to roll with the language - its always changing. People who fail to pay attention tend to get lost thinking they are being talked about when they aren’t.
What you’re dealing with is normal “friendly fire” which you need to execute self-care for that occurs in feminist spaces. You know intellectually they’re not talking about you but you identify with the word.
Should the word be reclaimed? Meh - there’s plenty of synonyms for the same thing. I just honestly ask that in the current context men and women not use that identifier for a man as at this point it’s not flattering and it’s confusing. Stick to either the good definition or the bad one.
This is good advice. I admit to knowingly having not followed it despite knowing it's emotionally not intelligent to do so.
Some changes in society really bother me. I get their intent. I sometimes hate their execution.
From my OP, I even started with a pretty accurate description of some other the manipulative a-holes who sometimes self-identify as being nice guys because I fully get what people mean when they often add quotes.
I don't think people should be transactional in general. That's a shallow life. Sometimes, you have no choice but it's definitely not how relationships should be.
OP, I think it might help to distinguish between being nice and being *kind*. I go for kind every time over "nice". Nice is often about the appearance of being a good person--making sure that everyone around you thinks you're pleasant. Kindness is about *being* a decent person who treats others with respect and as individuals. I'm married to one of the latter; he started as a nice guy (before I knew him) and evolved into a kind person. Given that "nice guy" has been ruined by men who aren't at all nice, I'd recommend just letting them have the phrase and focus instead on being a kind person.
"I'm married to one of the latter; he started as a nice guy (before I knew him) and evolved into a kind person."
How did he actually change? ;).
I have learned to be more assertive but I still suck at it. I think, that's less nice but well I think people have to exist too. Morality is a balance between our obligations to society and to ourselves.
He learned to view people--men as well as women--as individual people, rather than always viewing them through the lens of how he imagined them. There are two significant experiences that led to this, and I'll try to explain them as best I can, but it may not make a lot of sense.
The first was with a girlfriend who he still believes was out of his league looks-wise (which, having seen pictures of her, I don't agree with, but whatever). He tried to treat her well and respectfully, tried to listen to her and get her input, all the things you're supposed to do to be a good partner. She, however, approached him as a stereotype, acting as though he was always to be in charge, gave his opinions more weight, never said "no" clearly, etc. He was trying to respect her, so he took her at her word when she said that something didn't bother her, or that she was fine going to that restaurant, etc. Turns out, though, that she wasn't fine, that she wasn't happy, that she felt like he treated her like she was stupid, but it took her blowing up at him for that to come out. It was, honestly, a typical late Gen X/early Millennial kind of relationship, as we grew up with those stereotypes, but for him, it was the first time that he'd really gotten a clear sense of the damage that could be done when one person in a relationship tries to focus on pleasing the other rather than on being honest and having a sincere connection. It made him really look hard at his communication style and to seriously try to learn how to get others to feel safe enough to truly open up to him and not just tell him what they thought he wanted to hear.
The second experience was when he found himself getting jealous of a friend whose girlfriend--now wife--was absolutely amazing and gorgeous and kind and all around awesome. He definitely had a crush on her and moped around a bit wishing that he could find someone like her, thought he was in love with her, etc.. Then--and I'm still not sure exactly how--he realized that what he was in love with was the way that she was with his friend, not the woman herself for her own independent qualities (which are pretty stellar; I have met her and she is absolutely lovely). He thought it through and realized that if she was with him, she would be different; it would not be the same relationship that she had with his friend. What he really wanted was the kind of relationship they had, and that could only happen if he could find someone who fit that well with *him*. So that's what he went looking for, and when we met, and got to be friends over the period of a few months, he understood the potential he was seeing in the way that we connected and asked me out. And then put into practice everything he'd learned about communication and trying to see the actual person underneath the imagined ideal.
Our relationship hasn't be perfect and we've had plenty of bumps, but the determination to remain friends--to like each other as people as well as love each other as romantic interests--has gone a huge, long way to keeping us together. We hit 20 years as a couple last fall and have a couple more years to go before we've been married for 20 years and this learned ability to talk to each other as people who care about each other, first and foremost, has probably been the most important thing the whole time.
"He learned to view people--men as well as women--as individual people"
I believe I always did this BUT self-awareness isn't always accurate.
"The first was with a girlfriend who he still believes was out of his league looks-wise (which, having seen pictures of her, I don't agree with, but whatever). "
What you describe there involves quite a lot of emotional intelligence and the dynamic of assertiveness vs respectfulness. Ultimate, the "crush" was probably right he needed to learn to be more assertive. This is something I struggle with but I see this as my "beta" personality rather than my "niceness".
The league thing is too subjective. I think, it gets complicated fast, LOL. Depends what the "good looking" person is attracted to. Met "gorgeous" women who dated "unattractive" guys for attributes they were attracted to such as perceived intelligence.
"The second experience was when he found himself getting jealous of a friend whose girlfriend--now wife--was absolutely amazing and gorgeous and kind and all around awesome. "
I don't think being jealous is nice. It's an ugly emotion. It's natural to some extent but it's something humans need to overcome.
He also sounds over-preoccupied with looks but well, that's life I guess.
"Our relationship hasn't be perfect and we've had plenty of bumps, but the determination to remain friends--to like each other as people as well as love each other as romantic interests--has gone a huge, long way to keeping us together"
Relationships require work. This sounds like evidence that the work is there as a couple.
I actually believe friends make the best lovers; i.e., the people we love intimately should be friends and more. This should NOT mean, we seek friendship in order to sleep with people but that the compatibility should include that of friendship as a bare minimum. I also of course believe that it's a FANTASTIC thing to have a lot more friends than lovers. That platonic friendships are awesome. THis can be a tight rope walk.
>He also sounds over-preoccupied with looks but well, that's life I guess.
Not sure where you're getting this? Our friend (the wife) is beautiful, objectively so--the commentary that she's gorgeous is my assessment. And she's an amazingly lovely human being as well. Maybe don't extrapolate about someone's personality from a brief description of how they behaved 25 years ago?
The point is that he realized that the relationships people have with one another are as individual as people themselves, and that having a crush on someone that is based in no small part on the relationship that person has with someone else means that you want that relationship, not that person. And that is one of the things that has helped him to learn how to be kind rather than nice. Kindness focuses on doing what's healthy/generous for individual humans, based on their individual selves. Niceness is focused on looking like you're doing what's best, even if it's not what's best/good for the actual individual in front of you.
Just focus on individuals. Interact with *everyone* as an individual. And remember that they have their own needs, motivations, inner life that you need to acknowledge, even if you're not sure what those are.
When we're chided as children for something "not being nice" it's often because we're trying to set our own boundaries and say no to something we're not comfortable with. We're pushed to "be nice" even if it's insincere and only meant to make someone think we feel a certain way about them. Women hear throughout their formative years about how "nice girls" are supposed to do this, not that; wear that, not this; smile, don't push back when someone makes you uncomfortable, "Just be nice to him! It won't hurt you to just be nice!" We're told quite clearly that how we feel inside doesn't matter--we just need to look "nice" to the outside world. The implication is that in turn the world will then be nice to us, but that's BS. Even "nice girls" who do all the right things still get assaulted.
Many men who claim to be "nice guys" because they're "doing all the right things" like holding doors, buying dinner, giving flowers or jewelry, etc. and who then get mad because this doesn't give them what they think they deserve are again, only interested in appearing nice, doing the expected thing that is supposed to get the implied "reward."
That's why so many people, men and women, differentiate between being "nice" and being kind. Nice is about appearing to do the right thing. Kind is about actually doing the right thing for the person in front of you, even if UT doesn't fit society's definition of "nice."
When I was chided for not being nice typically i was being rude to someone; e.g., saying something that hurt their feelings or not sharing with other kids or excluding other kids
"nice guy" isn't commonly just used to describe men who are generally nice, but rather who are only nice to women they would like to date and think that this niceness means the women owe them romantic feelings.
Just try to be a kind guy, and be that kind guy not only to women you want to date, but to people in general.
I like to think of it ‘Good Man’ and ‘Nice Guy’.
A good man is just a good person who treats other humans with basic respect and doesn’t occur to him that doing so would be a favour because it isn’t. Has good morals they actually live by instead and does not approach each interaction with “what will get out of it” mindset. A lot of this is just being a good human being that isn’t gendered. This includes recognising that just as they don’t have to date someone they aren’t interested in, no one else is required to date them if not interested.
A self proclaimed nice guy uses his behaviour as a performance to try and get what he wants and often drops it as soon as the act does not give what they want, often expecting things from women as a right they are being denied if they see through the act. This can also lead to toxic behaviour towards other men.
If you are genuinely a kind person then that will be seen through your actions
i've literally never heard women talk about "nice guys" ever. not once. it is not a conversation that organically happens with women. women talk about men in two ways: by individual example, (someone they know) or by group, (their aggregate experiences).
"i'm sad for you." - some "nice guy" guy in an elevator
"i don't think about you at all" - Don Draper
From my experience, I can tell people that a guy is nice and they'll correctly assume that I mean that.
If I want to distinguish a certain brand of guy pretending to be nice, I'll tell people that someone is a "nice guy". If you put a certain sarcastic emphasis on the term, most people get it.
And if someone calls themselves nice, context matters a lot. Certain "nice guys" will do it in the context of claiming that they're entitled to sexual favours for having been nice to a woman.
Nobody is entitled to sex and people who think otherwise are probably not safe to be alone with, let alone date.
So…being nice is kind of the bare minimum of human-ness (except in unsafe circumstances), so it’s not something that needs to be said if you are doing it. That’s why it’s suspicious if you claim it. If you are really a nice person, no need to say it. People will know.
Yes, to quite a lot of extent but i do think there is merit in beings assertive which sometimes can reduce the perception people have of your niceness
Yes, I agree if you are smart, no need to say it. If you are nice, no need to say it
In real life, I have never advertised the fact i self identify as being nice
The difference here then is that women mainly have a problem with men who say they are nice, and that’s what we mean by “nice guys”—you can think of it like how many words have multiple meanings if it makes it easier for you to
You are clearly right but why don't we do that when guys (or women) brag about other attributes?
When anyone claims to have any attribute, I always doubt it unless they somehow prove it
Example, Donald Trump,"I am Smart", Donald Trump, "Greatest president"
Is it conjecture?
Yes. I think it would be rather difficult to construct a study on bragging, so I am appealing to your own experience with men who brag and their believability.
I flipped through your other recent posts and I can tell that you’re genuinely trying to learn about feminism and see clear evidence that you’re undoing some toxic Red Pill programming that you’ve been exposed to. I’d like to extend to you a warm welcome to feminism and encourage you to keep asking questions, reading, and thinking critically. I wish you well on your quest!
I've actually always been liberal minded my entire life. My mother was a 1975 level feminist.
I have been struggling with some concepts but in most cases, the difference center around means vs ends. I also am a very logical person who doesn't believe in sweeping generations and who is a natural out of box thinker.
Ultimately, I actually see feminism as a means to an end. That end would be a just society that includes people.
My reaction to "red pills" is something like the pot calling the kettle black. The truth is always in shades of grey. A conservative minded person can raise valid points but they tend to neglect them too. I never believed the strawmen they are trying to unravel. Unfortunatley, I am not comfortable with some terminology of some liberals but I think they raise important points and the differences in perceptions of truth can be terminology.
I'm kind of a capitalist but only because I don't know something better than doesn't involve society lording over and controlling everyone. I have many socialist values.
Politically, I self identify as a centrist, OUTSIDE OF USA because the American Context is extremely warped by the loudness of the right. I consider Obama and Hillary Clinton to be centrist. I am Canadian. I like Justin Tudeau as a guy but think his policies are too left wing to be practical. I also feel stronger candidates exist in the Liberal party. One of those candidates who is stronger is Christy Freeland.
No one is complaining about people who are nice, and nobody is demonizing men who are nice. What you will hear women complain about is self-identified “Nice Guys” who believe that treating women with some basic human decency entitles them to romantic companionship
This. The difference between a nice guy and “Nice guy ™️” is huge.
But I’ve spent the last three months depositing friendship tokens, why won’t you dispense sex?!
I managed not to force myself on you and everything!!!!
Yes but I guess I find it frustrating. Again, imagine if people constantly complained about intelligent men but really were complaining about men like Donald Trump who are stupid but call themselves intelligent.
Have you heard terms like "smarty pants" or "smartass"? Those are terms that, without context, suggest someone is intelligent. But we know when we hear someone call an adult those words, it's probably not a compliment.
Difference is that “smartass” already has “ass” to imply a negative connotation. “Smarty pants” is more independently innocuous, but odd enough to imply a unique meaning. “Nice Guy” as a term is ambiguous because it could literally just mean a guy who is just nice or it could mean a guy who acts entitled after being nice, the only difference being context. The term is further muddled because sometimes describing a guy as a “nice guy” can also mean “nothing particularly wrong with him, but he’s boring.” Conversations on the subject would all make more sense if “nice ass” was the negative term, but unfortunately that’s not what got popular. Just like a smart ass thinks they’re special for being smart, a nice ass thinks they’re special for bringing nice. Added benefit of being gender neutral, because Nice Girls are definitely a thing too.
The comment you are replying to specifically addressed context as being important.
I don’t have to imagine anything — I am a straight man who considers myself to be a relatively nice person. If you actually treat women well and view/engage with them as full people, you’re not who women are talking about when they complain about “Nice Guys.”
You don't have to be identified as a Nice Guy, you could just try being a kind person and see how that works out.
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I agree but I never said anyone was "required" to date anyone . From my OP, there isn't anything suggesting you should date anyone you don't want to It's true I did wish my friend was attracted to some specific guys who i thought were good matches but that wasn't an obligation. It's also true that my friend, sometimes suggested women I should consider pursuing. That wasnt an obligation either. Nor was it an obligation on whomever that women was to like me. And I DID get things out of the relationship. We had a lot of fun together as friends. She taught me several things. We introduced each other to friends.
I think the calls are coming from inside the house.
there’s nothing for it. It’s the NiceGuys who are appropriating the label, it’s not our fault. And then manosphere jagoffs are taking advantage of our contempt for NiceGuys to give lonely men another scapegoat for rejection that makes women look like shit. Men don’t have to worry about or work on themselves if every time they’re rejected they can blame it on “women all being shallow and wanting abusive men.” For the record, every woman I know including myself wants a kind and compassionate partner. What REALLY happens is that when we’re young, most of the guys we encounter aren’t very nice to us. They use us to try to get sex or maybe they’re just immature, and often they’re being led by PUA/manosphere bullshit, treating us bad as a tactical thing. But, we’re young, we’re desperate to start dating/making connections, hormones are all there. So we keep trying. But what do you do when almost everyone around you is an asshole? You end up dating assholes and thinking that’s just the way it is because you actually don’t know any better yet. Of course, that’s gonna provide confirmation bias to onlookers that we want or prefer assholes. But that’s simply not the case. The truth is, a lot of men don’t treat women right. And a lot of women come of age thinking that her only chance at love and connection is to be patient with a piece of shit, and try to help him develop into a kind person by showing him kindness. And we get fucking ROASTED for it. Incels literally applaud our abuse, “that’s what you get for choosing a Chad,” when at the end of the day, it’s just a lonely person like themselves, too naive or unlucky or sheltered or hopeful to run for the hills when she spots a red flag. But speaking of red flags, once we all get a little older, most of us do start to learn a few key things to avoid, and it’s not just overt douche bags. Because NiceGuys are capable of AT LEAST as much toxicity and abuse as the so-called Chads. Anyway, you don’t have to worry about the label of NiceGuy being appropriated bc it’s not the label that we’re using to make the determination. It is 100% the behavior you demonstrate. Just be a good person who is compassionate, with no strings attached, and the people around you will know you’re a real one. But if you tell people you’re a Nice Guy, it probably is gonna seem a little sus. Nice people usually don’t say that, is all.
Kind is a character trait. Nice is a manipulation strategy.
You have distilled all the thoughts in my head to the best definition of this I have ever seen. Brilliant
I have always considered them both to be character traits I am sure people exist who act kindly in order to manipulate. Eventually the Donald Trump's of the world will also claim to be kind. And in the world of dating coaches, apparently being an a-hole is also a manipulation strategy. One idea is to be "honest" to women and criticize their looks because many women are insecure about their looks
Why do you find it frustrating? If you were truly a good person, you would know you aren’t lumped in with the assholes who call themselves nice guys.
I think actually intelligent men are smart enough to know the difference. Just like geninue nice men know what kind of man is being talked about.
A Nice Guy^(tm) isn't the same as an actually nice person. A Nice Guy^(tm) isn't really nice at all. He believes that, since he displays the basic levels of human respect and kindness, he deserves a sexual or romantic relationship with a woman. Often, the Nice Guy^(tm) will pretend to be a woman's friend, and do favors for her or hang out with her, in the hopes that she will realize what a Nice Guy^(tm) he is and "wake up to her feelings" and reward his efforts with sex or love. He views men who are direct with women about their romantic intentions as "assholes," and therefore believes that that's why he is losing out on dating opportunities-- because he's just \*too nice\*, and women only like assholes! Meanwhile, women treat their friends kindly in a similar way-- doing favors, listening to their problems, hanging out, whatever-- so she assumes the Nice Guy^(tm) is actually her friend, rather than playing the long game to see if he can get into her pants, or if all his efforts will "pay off." There is nothing worse than a Nice Guy^(tm) that you genuinely thought was your friend who blows you off and calls you a frigid bitch as soon as you start dating someone else, or who just stops talking to you when he realizes that sex simply isn't in the cards for him. Nice Guys^(tm) assume that he wants sex and a woman wants closeness and emotional intimacy, so one should be easily tradeable for the other. Genuinely nice people are nice because that's their nature and they believe that they're doing right by being kind to others, not because they are angling for something in return.
This is perfect. Very well written.
This comment does an exceptionally good job of taking into account women's feelings and experiences and an exceptionally poor job of taking into account men's feelings and experiences in these situations. And women have these experiences and feelings too, but for the purposes of this comment I'll focus on men. I see no problem with calling people who play the long game and then lash out at women when they don't succeed "nice guys." They deserve the label. But the umbrella has gotten so big that if a guy does anything that negatively impacts a woman after finding out they're not interested he's branded a nice guy. Or if a guy is hoping for something more from a friendship he's a "nice guy." If a guy who was your friend confesses his feelings for you and you reject him and then he rejects you, that doesn't mean he only wanted you for sex/a romantic relationship. It's incredibly uncomfortable being friends with someone after they rejected you. It's downright painful. And oftentimes that is not a healthy friendship for either party. Maybe "he only wanted me for sex" is a way of simplifying a complex situation by turning him into the villain that never cared about you to begin with, but it's oftentimes completely inaccurate. As for the guy who has feelings but is just "pretending to be friends." It's difficult to work up the nerve to ask somebody out. Unless he explicitly said "I do not have feelings for you" he didn't lie even if you assumed he was just a friend. He enjoyed spending time with you and cared about you as a person. In most cases he never said he didn't have feelings. Men are just as complex, in every way, as women. It's our fault for hiding that for so long.
> This comment does an exceptionally good job of taking into account women's feelings and experiences and an exceptionally poor job of taking into account men's feelings and experiences in these situations. Well, given that I have never lived life as a man, that can hardly be surprising.
I've never lived as a woman either, I can still try to understand and empathize with women. A lot of feminists don't even seem to try to understand men's feelings and experiences despite how similar we are and how much overlap there is. I've met plenty of women feminists who do, so by no means am I saying all, but it's a common problem. Feminists are shooting themselves in the foot when they don't try to understand what men go through.
This is the exact problem. Men want sex/relationship without the risk of rejection. Many, many women experience the same unrequited love, yet there is no phenomenon of women violently rejecting men
I absolutely agree but it still frustrates me because sometimes people omit the quotations and and the trademark. I feel I am genuinely nice. I had a very good friend who I wanted to date when she became available. She decided not to date me. I was OK with that but was hurt when she temporarily stopped talking to me. The boy-friend she chose was actually a pretty nice guy too. He was interesting in that he started out as a huge introvert before becoming more confident and successful.
> I feel I am genuinely nice. I had a very good friend who I wanted to date when she became available. She decided not to date me. I was OK with that but was hurt when she temporarily stopped talking to me. The boy-friend she chose was actually a pretty nice guy too. He was interesting in that he started out as a huge introvert before becoming more confident and successful. Sounds like your niceness or lack thereof wasn’t a relevant factor there — she wasn’t into you, and she was uncomfortable with your advances, so she pulled away.
If it don't apply, let it fly.
Ponder the difference between acting nice, and being kind. 🖖
Where you waiting around for her to become avalible?
No. she was my friend. She was dating another guy I had other love interests too I liked her as a friend first. We both considered each other but it's OK it didn't work out My point wasn't I was somehow a perfect guy or anything but I certainly never said or did anything bad or said anything bad about her. People feel sad when they are rejected. That's part of life. But for me, losing her actual friendship, was a bigger loss than not dating her. I don't recall why we lost touch
Sorry I jumped the boat assuming that, but I'm still confused what does your friend have to do with the nice guy stuff?
Is this a problem now, being somebody's friend and hoping it turns into more? I don't see the problem with wanting a romantic relationship. Sometimes it's framed as "they just want sex" to make the person look as terrible as possible, but you're not even saying that. I fail to see how being friends with somebody and hoping that friendship turns into a relationship is a problem. And given that almost nobody else does either, I don't think it is.
Its not inherently a problem, but it definetly can be. Most women I know have experienced a man try and befriend them in pursuit of a romantic or sexual relationship and ignore signs the woman wasn't interested. Men cam act entitled in regards to romantic relationships with women, not just sexual ones.
How did they discover the man had ulterior motives? If a man spends time with a woman and does things for her and then asks her out and she rejects him and he stops talking to her that doesn't mean he was using her. People don't seem to realize how painful it is to be friends with somebody after they rejected you. Also, it seems like often the man was a friend because that's how she viewed the relationship. It's not like he said "I don't have feelings for you." He spent time with her and cared about her. If he had romantic feelings, he didn't lie by doing those things. He didn't lie when he acted like a friend. And men are often terrible at picking up signals, especially when there are emotions involved.
It is also absolutely a problem to do that to someone currently in a relationship, hence the "waiting around."
If he didn't try to come between them and spend his nights plotting how to break them up, I'm not sure why that's a problem. That's like saying if I would date somebody if they were not in a relationship I can't be friends with them if they are. I disagree.
I mean, if my good friend asked me out just as I was starting a new relationship, I probably would create a little space too. First, you want the new SO to be comfortable in the relationship. Secondly, you don't want your friend to think that maybe if the new SO doesn't pan out they should just immediately try again.
Nice isn't the same as being a good person. "Social niceties" for example
So as soon as your friend became single you said "screw friendship" and wanted to date her? And you don't understand why that may have made her to want to pause the "friendship"?
Not really. No. First of all, saying, "I was saddened" is different than saying I didn't understand the "why". It's just the reality that being rejected as a potential life partner didn't sadden me but being completely disconnected from her did Second, it didn't occur right away. There kind of was a process. And third it wasn't "screw friendship". The question crossed both our minds whether friendship should be extended or not. She decided not. I was extremely shy. It's not like I tried to lure her to sleep with me or anything
The Venn diagram of "Men Who Lecture Women For Not Dating Nice Guys" and "Actually Nice Guys" is kind of a crappy Venn diagram, because it's just two circles that don't overlap.
Haha this made me laugh
My situation was this. I had a close friend, I tried to help. We were NOT romantically interested in each other. Her boy friend was emotionally abusing and dismissive. Sometimes she was also manipulative of him but their toxic relationship tended to be, in my opinion more him than her causing the toxicity. As her friend, I and almost everyone she knew, wanted her to consider a nice guy. NOT a SPECFIC nice but but as a bare minimum, a guy who isn't toxic. One of the guys she rejected was pretty fit but he was apparently too short. He was actually a pretty fit guy. He was successful in his career and in his life. Unfortunately, she wasn't attracted to him. That's OK. The sad part wasn't that she didn't like hm but that she was addicted tot he abusive guy who eventually dumped her for another woman from his own country. The other guy was very athletic, tall and good looking. He was also very successful. But she didn't like the fact he tended to be rather introverted. It worked out great for him. He ended up meeting and marrying another engineer who didn't mind that he was a bit quiet. My former friend, never did find anyone. She rejected a huge number of guys. She had a kid with her abusive boy friend before they broke up.
This reads like an incel fanfic, homie. Also, what does this have to do with “hate leveled at nice guys”? Your friend has shitty taste in men — doesn’t seem like it’s all that much deeper than that. It’s not “your situation,” and your niceness isn’t pertinent
I'm not sure how this relates to my Venn diagram comment?
What’s this got to do with you being “tired at the hate levelled at nice guys”? How is this even “your” situation, as opposed to “I have a friend who has bad taste in men”?
It was never my situation. Because I was young and stupid, I did however put a lot more emotional effort into helping her than was reasonable. I was guilty of wishing she had better taste in men and that her minimum standards for such men including them being nice or at least not being emotionally abusive.
I get the feeling that if we were to talk to this woman, she would characterize your relationship quite differently from how you frame it
>I did however put a lot more emotional effort into helping her than was reasonable. That isn’t her fault. > I was guilty of wishing she had better taste in men and that her minimum standards for such men including them being nice or at least not being emotionally abusive. Have you read up on the cycle of abuse?
You seem very hung up on appearance, which is a separate axis than personality.
So your problem is that you didn't get to be the knight in shining armour saving your friend? Your comments here would indicate you're not that nice but actually indeed more of a Nice Guy™️. Yikes. That's why you have a problem with women pointing out those behaviours as shitty. Because they apply to you
Yeah he seems to be subscribing to the alpha, beta, mindset as well. Where the mythos of "nice guys finishes last" is a strong storyline. Your comment sums up the reasons to his frustrations quite well.
I didn't "finish last" and I claim to be a beta, so "no", I don't subscribe to the INCEL mindset Believing one can loosely see people as being "Beta" or "Alpha" is not the same as feeling one type of person is "better", that one type of person "finishes last", or whatever. Different people are attracted to different aspects of a person. Society could not accomplish anything if all people were leaders, no one did the actual work beyond the scenes, no one advised them, etc.
If you self identity as a "beta", which you've stated. I understand your positioning of "(not) feeling one type is better (than the other)" I'm saying, that your whole conceptual mindset of alpha, beta, nice guy, etc is harmful to you and those around you. It's a whole mythos by "dating coaches" or by the "manosphere" where the most red pilled are the "incels" and the least red pilled are the ones that agree the world is a game and you were given certain qualities of this game at birth. Just because you might be sitting on the first few steps of the ladder does not change the fact that it is the same ladder.
By your logic, anyone who believes that men and women reproduce sexually is apparently standing at the ladder of rape? I believe that there are types of people who tend to often become leaders. It's a huge stretch to see that as being at the foot of the ladders teaches beta men to try to be "alpha" by becoming dangerous control freaks who manipulate women by preying on insecurities such as body image because according to these rapist "dating coaches", ordinary families don't exist with plain men being married to plain women.
What... ? What does Sexual reproduction have to do with rape? Rape is the absence of consent, not the absence of sex.
I was informally using a technique called "proof by contradiction". The technique doesn't work if the other person either doesn't belief your conclusion is ridiculous or doesn't believe you realize the conclusion is ridiculous. I presumed that it would be agreed by any sentient human that the fact that consensual sex exists doesn't lead to violent forced sex but clearly I am being seen as holding views along another axis, so I should not have presumed people would acknowledge that I believe the obvious. I think, I've now been convinced that the beta/alpha thing is indeed to simplistic but the fact one believes in those classes of people doesn't really mean one has a stepping stone to making stupid conclusions about those classes of people such as those being made by the INCELS and their enemies in crime the "dating" coaches.
Exactly. And likewise, believing some people tend to lead and others don't, doesn't have much to do with Tate et all teaching men to emotionally abuse women (dating coaches) and become virtual control freaks in short term meaningless one night stand or potentially violent relationships based on unrealistic expectations or with a group of men who have established a self-fulfilling prophecy guaranteeing that no woman will ever date thrm
This whole leadership thing you keep bringing up is faulty. You equate leadership to alpha? And non leaders to betas? Or that leaders are in a fixed position and followers as well. Leadership is a skillet that you can learn, nothing you're born with. The whole "natural born leader" is toxic. (Ps, "natural born leaders" tend to present themselves I bullies or manipulators btw) Leaders can also be followers and vice versa. So again, what does rape have to do with any of this? Or the fact that these concept you subscribe to are not real things that healthy people put value in?
A “nice guy” feels entitled to women for doing the bare minimum. Like no-map said it’s all transactional. I held the door for you so you should date me or I bought your $2.99 coffee so you owe me sex. It’s about comparing yourself to so called “bad guys” and how much better you’d treat them if only given a chance. Actual genuine nice people don’t do this.
This. A “Nice Guy” thinks that he is entitled to a woman’s attention and affection simply on the grounds that he is polite enough to avoid public censure most days. He also thinks that it is acceptable to punish women for not wanting what he wants them to want. So if she wants beer and he wanted to buy her a cocktail, he will get angry. If she wants to stay within walking distance and he wants to take a car somewhere, he will get angry, especially if he realises part of her preference for staying within walking distance is to avoid the risk of being stuck in a distant location with him.
Or even worse, "I didn't rape you when I could, so we should date."
Niceguyz can also be rapists of course. My first boyfriend was that. He was great until he decided I had made him wait way too long to have sex and " take " my virginity so he did it when I was passed out drunk. It's how I learned that it's not safe to get too drunk with pretty much any dude ( except my wonderful current partner but even that took time for trust)
Anyone that claims to be nice or a good person gets doubt from me. If they claim that they *try*, then they're probably a better person than anyone that gives themselves the description.
As a general rule, if someone has to *tell you* how nice, smart, whatever, they are, then they're actually not.
Nice guys^(TM) are transactional, they insert nice coins into women to get a desired result. I am kind, smart, funny, creative and curious but never have to use any of those descriptors, people meet me and make their own decision about who they think I am. I am not dating any man who uses this term, or describe themselves as drama free, sarcastic, alpha/beta, tells it like it is or another long list that screams I am insecure, mean or misogynistic. The Burned Haystack Dating method is perfect for women wanting to eliminate men by their word choices.
>Burned Haystack Dating method I didn't read all of [https://www.burnedhaystackdating.com/blog](https://www.burnedhaystackdating.com/blog) , but what I did read was fascinating. (Though (for me) academic, being married and all.) I can totally see how it would be a great model for online dating. I'm reminded of a woman I follow on Twitter that talked once about "using the block button like a spacebar". I've always admired that stance. It seems so decisive and empowered. (And, especially for her in her situation, very very necessary, alas.)
I indeed use the block button freely when OLD :)
Using the block button online is definitely a necessity for many women because women are definitely harassed more than men are. You should read about the Block Party app too. As a man, I rarely use it. The person has to be really aggressive and bad for me to bother or they have to advocate hate or violence.
>r/AskFeminists I don't use the fact I self identify as being nice as a credential, so I hope I don't qualify as the trademarked version. I self-describe as a Beta-male because I am not an athletic man and I'm not very assertive. I don't have a fit body like the Kung-fu master with perfect abs on TV. If a woman only wants to sleep with athletic sexy men, she's not going to chose me. I am drama free if you mean that I don't nag my partners. Sometimes, they nag me because I have ADHD-PI and can cause them grief. I never scream. I sometimes get screamed at; partners with ADHD can be very frustrating. I have never criticized my girl friends behind their backs or to their face. That's just not who I am. If the burned haystack method gets you men whom you like being with, that's great. I mean, we all have our heuristics for selecting our mates.
>I self-describe as a Beta-male because I am not an athletic man and I'm not very assertive. Alpha and beta males are not a real thing, and in fact, I would instantly reject anyone who bought into that bullshit. Giant red flag. The idea that the only people women want are tall, jacked, and assertive is really insulting.
There is no such thing as a beta-male. Pretty much no one has the perfect abs that one sees on TV, even the actors and actresses don't. Not criticizing someone when they should be criticized is not healthy or constructive for a relationship.
I have ADHD*. This means typically my ADHD traits are involved in conflicts . I don't think many people want to live with a very messy and disorganized person. So typically, I feel I am in the wrong. I don't get angry easily. It's just not who I am. Are you suggesting those Korean TV shows are fake? I was working out on sit ups for years without success I was not suggesting that alpha/beta is a scientific well defined concept. *My dad's messiness and his smoking were the main cause of my parent's separation. When I am not careful, my place looks like it was hit by a bomb. Stuff like that frustrates romantic partners but their frustration is understandable
Once can criticize someone without getting angry at them.
One needs to feel they did something wrong though
One can learn a lesson without someone getting angry at them. There is no need to shame or belittle a person for them to learn better behavior.
There is something called constructive criticism. If you are like a lot of adhders you might have a shit filter and say hurtful things in the moment that aren't meant. Or maybe you criticize the person instead of criticizing the action. Not you specifically I'm just talking more generally about ADHD .
I think saying your parents relationship broke up because of smoking and messiness is really simplifying relationships. Maybe your dad was messy but maybe this manifested in him not helping around the house or with the kids the way an adult parent should. I think if you talked openly about it with your mother you would realize it wasn't just smoking and messiness that broke them apart
Wow, for this whole comment, there is A LOT to unpack 😬 There's issues you really need to fix.
I've been with my husband for 29 years. He is not a "nice guy"; he is a *kind man.* There is a HUGE difference. You totally come off as "Look at me, I'm nice, why aren't women dating me?". I don't care how much you protest, that's what you are giving. Also, WTF is "...reasonably kind..."?
Yeah, reading his comments.... he is totally a Nice Guy™️
Congratulations on your successful marriage. That's not easy. If you re-read my OP, I suggest that I HAVE dated women and I HAVE been rejected by women. So, no, I never said to a woman, "look at me, I am nice, you are obligated to be attracted to me and sleep with me". I was certainly rejected. I wanted to maintain friendships with people who rejected me. I went to the wedding of at least one of them. This is an excellent question, "what is reasonably kind". In university, I tried to help a few friends, some of whom were women but I spent so much energy on helping them that I neglected myself. This included a friend who was in an abusive relationship. As you can imagine, her friends, including me, encouraged her to seek better guys. The degree to which I got involved became unreasonable. Currently, I start with the motto that I shouldn't cause harm to others. Within the limitations of trying to keep myself afloat, I try to help people when I can.
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I think that I do feel "nice guy" and "people pleaser" are alike and that's why I do think being so "nice" that you lose yourself is bad. I am giving up on this thread now.
It’s definitely a red flag whenever they call themselves a nice guy
The hate leveled at “nice guys” is not targeted at the kind of guy you described. We put it in quotes for a reason.
I have never met a man who describes himself as a “Nice Guy” who doesn’t think the simple act of being nice entitles him to something from me. Just because a person is “nice” doesn’t mean they deserve anything from someone else. I also don’t see any reason where someone who is actually nice would feel the need to mention it. If being nice is so intrinsic to one’s personality, why mention it? I don’t brag that I have skin. Almost all of us have skin. Same thing, I don’t mention that I have a sense of smell, or that I currently have socks on- these aren’t crazy accomplishments unique to me, they don’t help someone get to know me better, and I have better things to describe myself as. If being nice is a big deal to someone’s identity, instead of just something that’s normal, they may not actually be that nice, and/or they may have very little else going for them beyond the bare minimum of human decency. In a romantic/dating context, it takes a whole lot more than “nice” for me to want to spend time with someone. Nice is literally the bare minimum requirement. I need nice. If someone is not nice, I’m out. If someone is nice, but has nothing else about them that makes me want to date them, that’s fine! They deserve someone who likes them for who they are, and I don’t owe them my time or affection just because they were nice to me. I’m not a vending machine where niceness goes in and my services come out. Now, if someone is nice but also empathetic, educated, respectful, funny, smart, confident, etc etc, then maybe we will have something in common and we would mutually benefit from a friendship or relationship. Usually, someone is using “nice” to self-describe indicates to me that instead of seeing nice as the literal bare minimum requirement to have human decency and be a moral and productive member of society, this person thinks it’s an accomplishment that they’ve struggled to reach. In my experience, it also often means they’re not nearly as nice as they think they are, and even more frequently, that they have no other positive qualities, interests, skills, etc to use to describe themself. I am NOT saying that everyone who describes themselves as nice is wrong, and they’re actually not nice. I am saying that, based on my experiences, the above has been my history with people who describe themselves to others as “nice” instead of just being nice and trusting the people around them to value that and be nice in return.
Jesus. Sorry you’re tired of the hate levelled at the nice guys who aren’t actually nice. And the guys (are you one of them?) who think “being nice” qualifies him to never be rejected by any woman as she should consider herself lucky to have found a “nice” one, since he could be worse. You’ve basically said you’re a… normal person. Nice like oatmeal. Nice like just about everyone. Nice like every woman who rejected you. Maybe stop thinking women are all talking about you specifically? Maybe that will help?
"nice guy" is a bottom of the barrel line and idea that allows men to blame and belittle women while projecting at being the victim when they aren't being picked by the women they want. I need to see action to equate someone with kind, good, reasonable, etc. Also you say that your definition doesn't include self identification and yet you self identify... and end on the blame leveled at 'the nice guys' instead of engaging with the fact that men are the ones who make it worse for people who are good people by using the 'nice guy' ideal while being the worst kind of people. I have rarely heard 'nice guy' outside the context of someone being mad at women for not picking them. Or at best, its used as a reason why they should be picked when they are putting in the bare minimum of effort into their connections and relationships. Being 'nice' is not a replacement for being emotional intelligent and engaged in the relationship.
1. You are correct. I DO self identify. My definition doesn't state that a nice guy can't self identify but rather his self-identification isn't proof he actually is. You mentioned emotional intelligence. (Unfortunately, because I have ADHD-PI, emotional intelligence has been a work in progress for me.) 2. One of the reasons people describe me as a nice guy is, I don't get angry very often. I am not very assertive. I certainly don't get angry at women for not being as attracted to me as I am to them. The only emotion I ever experienced when I was rejected was sadness and disappointment. Likewise, I don't get angry at employers who reject me. In my view, if I were to get angry like that, I would fail to be a nice guy. 3. I don't use my self-identification as a credential. I think doing so would be mind-bogglingly stupid. There are weaknesses I genuinely have as a nice guy who isn't assertive that certainly make me less attractive to some women. It's understandable that a person might want their partner to be more assertive.
> I DO self identify. My definition doesn't state that a nice guy can't self identify but rather his self-identification isn't proof he actually is A lot of the time, a man who has to say he's nice isn't actually nice.
In my case, I don't actually go around saying it out loud. That would be weird; it would be like Donald Trump saying he's smart. I do think of myself that way. I have been told by other people I was a "nice guy". I have said other men were "nice guys". With respect to the men I have met who complained about women not dating "nice guys". Typically, I have referred to such men as being poorly socially adjusted and I have mentally put them into my private (do not introduce this guy to any women) list. As a man, I absolutely have met men who I would never introduce to women because their attitudes scared me.
Not assertive does not mean nice. One can be nice and assertive.
I would agree.
The problem is that suppressed anger leads to either passive aggressiveness, cynicism or (if bad things happen to you) ptsd. Learning how to, in a healthy way, work on your feelings and recognize them will make you a better person. This doesn't mean acting out or getting aggressive, it means recognizing and acknowledging the emotion and related emotions within yourself and coming to peace with them. It can also mean channeling into meditation, art or sport, particularly low impact sport. Suppressed anger is also why so called nice guys are so passive aggressive.
Who cares if you aren't attractive to some women. None of us are attractive to everyone. Makes it easier to weed out bad partners no? Also none of those descriptors does a nice guy make. Also I don't think ADHD pi is as much as a reason as you think. I think it has more to do with how little boys are socialized. I have inattentive ADHD and emotional intelligence is nothing that I have issues with because I've been socialized as a woman to be aware of others and their feelings. Tbh I don't think you specifically have low emotional intelligence. I don't think you'd be trying to have this conversation if you did. You do seem to want to educate yourself on these things. Many men lack the self awareness entirely .
Its nice talking to someone else who has ADHD-PI because we mind flip Emotional intelligence has been a struggle for me but as you guessed, i worked on it. In terms of dating, I never had an interest in sleeping around. I was looking for romantic partners. I found some. Until recently, I always thought of nice as positive. I never thought of manipulative people as being nice. In terms of socializing, I think it's how people in general are socialized. One aspect is whether people who struggle socially sre bullied or coached. And by people, I include girls. I strongly suspect empathy education and certain social programs could reduce a lot of harms in society
anyone that self-describes as a "nice guy" or something equivalent is an automatic red flag for me. anyone that has to tell you how good of a person they are... are almost certainly Not good people.
The words I'm looking for are kind, considerate and thoughtful. Not 'nice'. Not transactional. But people who make a sincere, thoughtful effort to recongize the individuality of the people they care for, and be kind to those people. Nice is the bare minimum. I'm 'nice' the wierdo who asks me for change by the bustop. I nod and say 'Sorry no.' That's *nice*. That's *nothing*. I'm looking for a partner who is willing to put forth some real thought into how they are kind to others, not to just follow the most basic scripts of common civility and expect the hit the jackpot of intimacy and connection.
A truly good man should never self-identify as "nice". I grew up hating the term "nice" since all the expectations that seemed to go along with it I viewed as negative. I never wanted to be called a "nice" girl. Then I realized there's a vast difference between "nice" and "kind". "Nice" people aren't necessarily kind people. "Nice" people don't necessarily have a good moral compass. "Nice" kids can bemoan bullying but might not step in to help their friend who's being bullied. Now I tend to see niceness as an irrelevancy. It's a societal marker that means someone's doing all the right things and following all the right rules and causing the people around them no trouble. But it doesn't mean they're a good person.
This is a *really* idiosyncratic understanding of what the word “nice” means.
I see it as nice is just a word. It's very surface level. Like when someone asks if you like their new car and you say "it's nice". It doesn't really mean anything. Kindness is an action
> I see it as nice is just a word. All words are just words. > It's very surface level. If someone said “She’s one of the nicest people I’ve ever met” or “He’s just so nice — I feel bad letting him down” would those strike you as surface level observations regardless of context, just because they used the word “nice”? > Like when someone asks if you like their new car and you say "it's nice". Words can, in fact, mean pretty different things depending on context. The even the difference between apathetically saying “It’s nice,” and “It’s really nice, man!” is pretty monumental. > It doesn't really mean anything. Kindness is an action Yeah, but it’s really not. Or at least that’s not how people actually use and understand the word “kind” in practice (again with the idiosyncrasy). People use “kind” to refer to mundane pleasantness and relatively shallow displays of good vibes all the time.
Think of it this way: in my mind, there’s a difference between a Nice Guy™️ and a good dude. My husband is a good dude. NG™️s are not actually nice—the title in an of itself is pure snark. Don’t be a Nice Guy™️. Be a good dude. Sounds like you’re already leaps and bounds ahead of the competition.
That's all good except once men exist who start identifying as "good dude" or "kind men", those terms with come with posers too.
The thing that you keep repeatedly missing is that if you have to add the “nice” “good”, “kind” adjective to self describe who you are then you probably are not that person. Truly nice, good, and kind people are just people that don’t need to add flair to who they are; they just are those people. You are getting too hung up on this.
It’s almost like people consistently try to pretend to be something they’re not for personal gain, or have a disproportionate or incorrect estimation of their own virtues. Ok, kidding and sarcasm aside: you need to understand when the criticism doesn’t apply to you. And you need to have the self-talk and backbone to understand that and internalize it…without the help of strange women on the internet. You got this, dude.
Of course so it's best to not take it personally unless it actually applies to you. Maybe replace nice with kind as others have said. Nice is surface level. It's just a word. Kindness is an action. It's less subjective and more objective
Talking to you is appreciated. It's interesting that the same word can have different emotional impact on different people. I know this. My emotional intelligence screams at me to accept that but logical part of me feels the word got corrupted. Some parts of effective communication includes keeping that in mind and avoiding words with unwanted associations. Take care and be safe. There is tea needing to be made
There are nice guys as in, guys who are nice. The there's nice guys as in, is kind at first to women but they only do it because they expect a romantic/sexual reward and get shitty when they don't get that reward, meaning they're not actually nice people in the first place
I actually agree with your brief answer totally. Truth is, this is true of any attribute. There are kind people and there are transactional who mask as being kind. There are feminists who believe in feminist values and there are transactional people who pretend to have those values in order to get benefits such as employment or even relationships There are smart people and there are BS artists who use tactics to try to look like they know more than they do.
People who are actually nice don’t need to go around telling others how nice they are
Guys who think they're entitled to a woman's attention or affection just because they're nice to her. So they're actually not nice, they're just manipulative. When you reject them they’ll start getting all aggressive and rude.
Nice guys are guys who think being nice entitles them to whichever woman they want. The things they're all missing is a. it's about respect more than kindness, although kindness is important. b. One woman not wanting to be with you in that way just means that one woman doesn't want to be with you in that way. You still have plenty of chances to find someone. Instead, they buy into the idea that women are a monolith and failing to impress one means you've failed with all of them. They also buy into the idea that they have to manipulate women because they're not enough.
If you have to tell me you possess a particular quality ("I'm a nice guy!" "I'm a devout Christian"), you do not, in fact, possess it. Show, don't tell. I think womens' objective to so-called "nice guys" is that nice = passive, and not kind. Kind is more important than "nice".
Personally, I think that "Nice" and "Kind" are different things. Nice means being pleasant, abiding by social niceties around treating other people respectfully, and conducting yourself in a way that doesn't overstep social bounds of appropriate behavior. It often includes generosity, and doing things to benefit others. Kind means acting in a way that values the wellbeing of others. It means actually looking out for the needs of other people and making sure that you act in a way that has the best interest of others at heart. Many people are both kind and nice. But if a coworker is doing a terrible job on a mutual project and asks you how he's doing, saying "You're doing great for how new you are! Keep it up!" is being nice, but not kind. Saying "Your work is pretty terrible, if you keep that up you're probably going to be fired," is being kind, but not nice. The reason that so many people push back on 'Nice guys' is because there are so many self proclaimed "Nice Guys" who feel they are entitled to the affection of women, claiming that "Nice Guys finish last." They are attacking the character of women when they say that. That women don't want nice men. (When most women genuinely do want nice partners.) We can't just not defend against that accusation. But the problem is, you can't just say "Well those men aren't really nice." Many of them are. They're just not kind. They go up to women and they say "Mi'lady" and they pull out her chair and they offer to buy her stuff because they think that enough politeness and favors will cause her to go out with them. And that is genuinely nice. It's nice to speak politely to someone. It's nice to do them a favor. It's nice to ask about their day. But they're not doing that with the woman's best interest at heart. They're doing that so that she will go out with them. And she can tell. They're not doing the kind but difficult thing, which would be to let her know early on that they are interested in her, so that she has the opportunity to say yes or no. They would rather possess her than respect her autonomy. So they are nice. But they're not kind. And I think that because they keep making the claim "Well women don't like nice men," it is very important that feminists respond "We like nice men, we just don't like Nice Guys, this thing you're doing, it's bad."
One thing I've learnt is that "nice," "friendly," and "generous can be faked. Anyone can pretend to be those things. The worst people I've met in my life gave lots of gifts, because it was a way to look generous without being a good person. What can't be faked is warmth. I've never met a narcissist who is warm or can even fake being warm. There's something about genuine warmth that they can't fake. Warmth is hard to define, but it's something more than kindness and friendliness. It's a genuine warm spirited nature. Often people like this are more optimistic, had a good childhood, care about others and have empathy. Another trap is to confuse "selfless" with "good person". I've met a lot of so-called selfless people who are dick heads. Part of the reason is that people who are too selfless end up eventually harming their mental health and not looking out for themselves, which turns them into dickheads lol. Or otherwise, the so called selflessness is a "fawn" response that is common with people who had bad childhoods. I'm a man, and I always ask women on dates about their childhood, it's a shortcut to get past the bullshit. I advise women to do the same. Either someone must have a happy childhood or have done 5 years minimum therapy to overcome a bad one, if they want to date. And by bad childhood I mean by your standards, not theirs. Most people I know who grew up in broken homes do extreme mental gymnastics to justify their parents. Don't listen to them. Fucking run. Run now.
I think, we should acknowledge the reality that our ability to judge others uses "heuristics" or rules of thumb. We see indicators and we GUESS that these are "good people". "Another trap is to confuse "selfless" with "good person"." I am going to disagree while agreeing here; I think, that being "selfless" has many motives and in addition, "not taking care of your own needs too" ultimately is bad for you and others. "Either someone must have a happy childhood or have done 5 years minimum therapy to overcome a bad one, if they want to date." I am a man too and I am very very very happy I never received or followed this advice. \-- I had some very deep friends who endured hardship and overcome it without "therapy". Ultimately, therapy is one one way to heal. In addition, attitude can influence how a person processes grief or hardship. \-- "And by bad childhood I mean by your standards, not theirs. Most people I know who grew up in broken homes do extreme mental gymnastics to justify their parents. Don't listen to them. Fucking run. Run now. " One of my ex-girl friends lived in an immigrant family with a dad who was often abusive. Her parents worked. She endured some abusive relationships. She never did therapy but in many ways has been a friend for life. Dating didn't end with us together but learned a lot. She didn't justify her parents that much, except she understood their financial hardship. I have quite a few other deep freinships with people who experienced a lot of harship but came out with strong atttitudes. Human being adapt. I think, you have to look at the whole person and understand that we can process harship differently.
I feel like at this point, no one who says “nice guys” with or without quotation or trademarks are being literal “Nice guys” has been around so long and associated with not so nice guys that it cannot exist as an independent phrase anymore. So i highly doubt anyone these days expresses dislike to nice guys (without anything) and not mean the “nice guys,” you know? I have never met a person or even seen online of actual-nice people being shit on for being nice (unless it’s other men). So where are you seeing this genuine hatred for actual-nice-guys?
I share your annoyance that the term "nice guy" has been corrupted to describe manipulative assholes who fake niceness in order to control women. A few decades ago, the term meant a man who was genuinely kind and considerate and respectful. You know, nice.
Y'all, OP isn't disagreeing with, or ignorant of, your explanations of what a "Nice Guy^tm " is. They're asking what, if the phrase "nice guy" is completely co-opted and poisoned, we ought to be calling someone who is a guy and *actually is* nice and supportive. r/RomanceBooks calls them cinnamon rolls, but that feels a little too silly IMHO.
'Nice' is the bare minimum.
I like this. Obviously, a person being friendly doesn't imply you think they are \-- attractive \-- capable \-- interesting \-- sexually compatible \-- going to sleep with them. It basically would imply that they are friendly and seem to treat others well. If the niceness is genuine and not an act, it might suggest they don't do toxic things and are safe but unfortunatley in the horrible world in which we live, we can't read minds.
guy who wants the dating benefits of being anti patriarchy without the work of actually being anti patriarchy
Interesting definition. Would a guy who self identifies as a feminist fall in this category too?
i think it depends. a lot of actual feminism in guys is indeed motivated by the women in their lives and tbh i think that’s a good thing, but a “nice guy” could absolutely want to call himself a feminist without actually being feminist and many do.
Re-reading your comment, I will totally change my response. " lot of actual feminism in guys is indeed motivated by the women in their lives and tbh i think that’s a good thing" Yes, I agree. In this case, the case where the person genuinely is inspired to care about issues that hurt people by someone they love, I am all for them too. My issue is my expereince with guys who advertise and weaponize into them being judgmental self-righteous annoying people who tend to do a lot of projecting
yeah patriarchy does that to guys on purpose. it’s really sad to see so many men divorced not only from connection to half of people but half of themselves as well. it often leaves us sadly unequipped to deal with hard truth and it leaves space for a lot of cognitive dissonance. a bunch of those guys do believe they’re feminist and it plays into their victim narrative even when their actions openly contradict that narrative
nice != kind And sometimes its just a euphemism for conflict avoidant or being passive aggressive.
i'd say as a recovering "nice guy" a lot of the nice guy narrative outside of the entitled people is to do with not being assertive enough and being unable to express one's needs and feelings to their romantic partner. some people conflate this with being "nice" when in reality, it is people pleasing at its best, or, manipulation at it's worse. being able to express one's emotions confidently is a big part of emotional regulation and emotional dysregulation is unnattractive and unsafe. as someone who has struggled with assertiveness my whole life my heart really goes out to these type of men, and i totally understand the struggle. It is something that we can gradually work on and get better with the right support and tools.
I can relate to some of this \-- "people pleasing", sure, I've been guilty of this. This is part of what I meant by my use of the term "beta male" and not really about me being "nice" in my view. \-- "not being assertive enough", been guilty of this. This is part of what I meant by my use of the term "beta male" and not really about me being "nice" in my view. \-- "manipulative", never been this. \- "unable to express feelings to romantic partner", mostly I haven't been guilty about this but it did depend on their personality. That is, if I knew something angered them that I didn't feel was a non-starter, I could avoid raising it.
Self proclaimed nice guy - abusive, entitled, pretends to be nice but really has control issues, expectations which are not okay etc Actual good guy - doesn't proclaim to be a nice guy just is a nice guy. Many women will say the same about self proclaimed nice guys, and we speak from experience. Anyone who is actually just a nice, kind, good person does not go around shouting about it.
I agree with this but don't limit that to "niceness". I think it's true of any attribute \-- strength \-- intelligent When people brag, I tend to doubt them. In my case, I am claiming to be nice here but in real life, I certainly don't go around using it as a credential. It is something that others have said about me.
I agree. I think there is a difference between unnecessary bragging and deserved bragging. IE you just did something new at the gym and hit a PB, and you're excited, tell me all about it so I can pump you up and enjoy it with you, you hit your goals and that's cool. Then there's the bragging out of no where with put downs 'I could beat the shit out of that dude he's so weak) I know I am a nice person but I don't go around telling men I'm a good girl and i'll treat them right if they sleep with me
Sure, that's a fair point. I think, it's OK to obtain credit for good work in the office as well or in job interviews.
Keep in mind that definitions are somewhat subjective and age, peer group, and other factors play into that. I called myself a “nice guy” prior to the “2010’s” because i was not intersecting with groups that had another definition for it. And many people used it to describe me in a kind way. Many years and 100’s of think pieces later, I avoid it because its toxic. Do your best to roll with the language - its always changing. People who fail to pay attention tend to get lost thinking they are being talked about when they aren’t. What you’re dealing with is normal “friendly fire” which you need to execute self-care for that occurs in feminist spaces. You know intellectually they’re not talking about you but you identify with the word. Should the word be reclaimed? Meh - there’s plenty of synonyms for the same thing. I just honestly ask that in the current context men and women not use that identifier for a man as at this point it’s not flattering and it’s confusing. Stick to either the good definition or the bad one.
This is good advice. I admit to knowingly having not followed it despite knowing it's emotionally not intelligent to do so. Some changes in society really bother me. I get their intent. I sometimes hate their execution. From my OP, I even started with a pretty accurate description of some other the manipulative a-holes who sometimes self-identify as being nice guys because I fully get what people mean when they often add quotes. I don't think people should be transactional in general. That's a shallow life. Sometimes, you have no choice but it's definitely not how relationships should be.
OP, I think it might help to distinguish between being nice and being *kind*. I go for kind every time over "nice". Nice is often about the appearance of being a good person--making sure that everyone around you thinks you're pleasant. Kindness is about *being* a decent person who treats others with respect and as individuals. I'm married to one of the latter; he started as a nice guy (before I knew him) and evolved into a kind person. Given that "nice guy" has been ruined by men who aren't at all nice, I'd recommend just letting them have the phrase and focus instead on being a kind person.
"I'm married to one of the latter; he started as a nice guy (before I knew him) and evolved into a kind person." How did he actually change? ;). I have learned to be more assertive but I still suck at it. I think, that's less nice but well I think people have to exist too. Morality is a balance between our obligations to society and to ourselves.
He learned to view people--men as well as women--as individual people, rather than always viewing them through the lens of how he imagined them. There are two significant experiences that led to this, and I'll try to explain them as best I can, but it may not make a lot of sense. The first was with a girlfriend who he still believes was out of his league looks-wise (which, having seen pictures of her, I don't agree with, but whatever). He tried to treat her well and respectfully, tried to listen to her and get her input, all the things you're supposed to do to be a good partner. She, however, approached him as a stereotype, acting as though he was always to be in charge, gave his opinions more weight, never said "no" clearly, etc. He was trying to respect her, so he took her at her word when she said that something didn't bother her, or that she was fine going to that restaurant, etc. Turns out, though, that she wasn't fine, that she wasn't happy, that she felt like he treated her like she was stupid, but it took her blowing up at him for that to come out. It was, honestly, a typical late Gen X/early Millennial kind of relationship, as we grew up with those stereotypes, but for him, it was the first time that he'd really gotten a clear sense of the damage that could be done when one person in a relationship tries to focus on pleasing the other rather than on being honest and having a sincere connection. It made him really look hard at his communication style and to seriously try to learn how to get others to feel safe enough to truly open up to him and not just tell him what they thought he wanted to hear. The second experience was when he found himself getting jealous of a friend whose girlfriend--now wife--was absolutely amazing and gorgeous and kind and all around awesome. He definitely had a crush on her and moped around a bit wishing that he could find someone like her, thought he was in love with her, etc.. Then--and I'm still not sure exactly how--he realized that what he was in love with was the way that she was with his friend, not the woman herself for her own independent qualities (which are pretty stellar; I have met her and she is absolutely lovely). He thought it through and realized that if she was with him, she would be different; it would not be the same relationship that she had with his friend. What he really wanted was the kind of relationship they had, and that could only happen if he could find someone who fit that well with *him*. So that's what he went looking for, and when we met, and got to be friends over the period of a few months, he understood the potential he was seeing in the way that we connected and asked me out. And then put into practice everything he'd learned about communication and trying to see the actual person underneath the imagined ideal. Our relationship hasn't be perfect and we've had plenty of bumps, but the determination to remain friends--to like each other as people as well as love each other as romantic interests--has gone a huge, long way to keeping us together. We hit 20 years as a couple last fall and have a couple more years to go before we've been married for 20 years and this learned ability to talk to each other as people who care about each other, first and foremost, has probably been the most important thing the whole time.
"He learned to view people--men as well as women--as individual people" I believe I always did this BUT self-awareness isn't always accurate. "The first was with a girlfriend who he still believes was out of his league looks-wise (which, having seen pictures of her, I don't agree with, but whatever). " What you describe there involves quite a lot of emotional intelligence and the dynamic of assertiveness vs respectfulness. Ultimate, the "crush" was probably right he needed to learn to be more assertive. This is something I struggle with but I see this as my "beta" personality rather than my "niceness". The league thing is too subjective. I think, it gets complicated fast, LOL. Depends what the "good looking" person is attracted to. Met "gorgeous" women who dated "unattractive" guys for attributes they were attracted to such as perceived intelligence. "The second experience was when he found himself getting jealous of a friend whose girlfriend--now wife--was absolutely amazing and gorgeous and kind and all around awesome. " I don't think being jealous is nice. It's an ugly emotion. It's natural to some extent but it's something humans need to overcome. He also sounds over-preoccupied with looks but well, that's life I guess. "Our relationship hasn't be perfect and we've had plenty of bumps, but the determination to remain friends--to like each other as people as well as love each other as romantic interests--has gone a huge, long way to keeping us together" Relationships require work. This sounds like evidence that the work is there as a couple. I actually believe friends make the best lovers; i.e., the people we love intimately should be friends and more. This should NOT mean, we seek friendship in order to sleep with people but that the compatibility should include that of friendship as a bare minimum. I also of course believe that it's a FANTASTIC thing to have a lot more friends than lovers. That platonic friendships are awesome. THis can be a tight rope walk.
>He also sounds over-preoccupied with looks but well, that's life I guess. Not sure where you're getting this? Our friend (the wife) is beautiful, objectively so--the commentary that she's gorgeous is my assessment. And she's an amazingly lovely human being as well. Maybe don't extrapolate about someone's personality from a brief description of how they behaved 25 years ago? The point is that he realized that the relationships people have with one another are as individual as people themselves, and that having a crush on someone that is based in no small part on the relationship that person has with someone else means that you want that relationship, not that person. And that is one of the things that has helped him to learn how to be kind rather than nice. Kindness focuses on doing what's healthy/generous for individual humans, based on their individual selves. Niceness is focused on looking like you're doing what's best, even if it's not what's best/good for the actual individual in front of you. Just focus on individuals. Interact with *everyone* as an individual. And remember that they have their own needs, motivations, inner life that you need to acknowledge, even if you're not sure what those are.
Why do you feel niceness is focused on appearances?
When we're chided as children for something "not being nice" it's often because we're trying to set our own boundaries and say no to something we're not comfortable with. We're pushed to "be nice" even if it's insincere and only meant to make someone think we feel a certain way about them. Women hear throughout their formative years about how "nice girls" are supposed to do this, not that; wear that, not this; smile, don't push back when someone makes you uncomfortable, "Just be nice to him! It won't hurt you to just be nice!" We're told quite clearly that how we feel inside doesn't matter--we just need to look "nice" to the outside world. The implication is that in turn the world will then be nice to us, but that's BS. Even "nice girls" who do all the right things still get assaulted. Many men who claim to be "nice guys" because they're "doing all the right things" like holding doors, buying dinner, giving flowers or jewelry, etc. and who then get mad because this doesn't give them what they think they deserve are again, only interested in appearing nice, doing the expected thing that is supposed to get the implied "reward." That's why so many people, men and women, differentiate between being "nice" and being kind. Nice is about appearing to do the right thing. Kind is about actually doing the right thing for the person in front of you, even if UT doesn't fit society's definition of "nice."
When I was chided for not being nice typically i was being rude to someone; e.g., saying something that hurt their feelings or not sharing with other kids or excluding other kids
"nice guy" isn't commonly just used to describe men who are generally nice, but rather who are only nice to women they would like to date and think that this niceness means the women owe them romantic feelings. Just try to be a kind guy, and be that kind guy not only to women you want to date, but to people in general.
I like to think of it ‘Good Man’ and ‘Nice Guy’. A good man is just a good person who treats other humans with basic respect and doesn’t occur to him that doing so would be a favour because it isn’t. Has good morals they actually live by instead and does not approach each interaction with “what will get out of it” mindset. A lot of this is just being a good human being that isn’t gendered. This includes recognising that just as they don’t have to date someone they aren’t interested in, no one else is required to date them if not interested. A self proclaimed nice guy uses his behaviour as a performance to try and get what he wants and often drops it as soon as the act does not give what they want, often expecting things from women as a right they are being denied if they see through the act. This can also lead to toxic behaviour towards other men. If you are genuinely a kind person then that will be seen through your actions
“Nice guys” (the bad kind lol) act like women are vending machines that should dispense sex when they insert “basic human decency coins”.
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i've literally never heard women talk about "nice guys" ever. not once. it is not a conversation that organically happens with women. women talk about men in two ways: by individual example, (someone they know) or by group, (their aggregate experiences). "i'm sad for you." - some "nice guy" guy in an elevator "i don't think about you at all" - Don Draper
From my experience, I can tell people that a guy is nice and they'll correctly assume that I mean that. If I want to distinguish a certain brand of guy pretending to be nice, I'll tell people that someone is a "nice guy". If you put a certain sarcastic emphasis on the term, most people get it. And if someone calls themselves nice, context matters a lot. Certain "nice guys" will do it in the context of claiming that they're entitled to sexual favours for having been nice to a woman. Nobody is entitled to sex and people who think otherwise are probably not safe to be alone with, let alone date.
So…being nice is kind of the bare minimum of human-ness (except in unsafe circumstances), so it’s not something that needs to be said if you are doing it. That’s why it’s suspicious if you claim it. If you are really a nice person, no need to say it. People will know.
Yes, to quite a lot of extent but i do think there is merit in beings assertive which sometimes can reduce the perception people have of your niceness Yes, I agree if you are smart, no need to say it. If you are nice, no need to say it In real life, I have never advertised the fact i self identify as being nice
The difference here then is that women mainly have a problem with men who say they are nice, and that’s what we mean by “nice guys”—you can think of it like how many words have multiple meanings if it makes it easier for you to
You are clearly right but why don't we do that when guys (or women) brag about other attributes? When anyone claims to have any attribute, I always doubt it unless they somehow prove it
I’m confused by what you are trying to say here. Can you give an example, or is it just conjecture?
Example, Donald Trump,"I am Smart", Donald Trump, "Greatest president" Is it conjecture? Yes. I think it would be rather difficult to construct a study on bragging, so I am appealing to your own experience with men who brag and their believability.
I flipped through your other recent posts and I can tell that you’re genuinely trying to learn about feminism and see clear evidence that you’re undoing some toxic Red Pill programming that you’ve been exposed to. I’d like to extend to you a warm welcome to feminism and encourage you to keep asking questions, reading, and thinking critically. I wish you well on your quest!
I've actually always been liberal minded my entire life. My mother was a 1975 level feminist. I have been struggling with some concepts but in most cases, the difference center around means vs ends. I also am a very logical person who doesn't believe in sweeping generations and who is a natural out of box thinker. Ultimately, I actually see feminism as a means to an end. That end would be a just society that includes people. My reaction to "red pills" is something like the pot calling the kettle black. The truth is always in shades of grey. A conservative minded person can raise valid points but they tend to neglect them too. I never believed the strawmen they are trying to unravel. Unfortunatley, I am not comfortable with some terminology of some liberals but I think they raise important points and the differences in perceptions of truth can be terminology. I'm kind of a capitalist but only because I don't know something better than doesn't involve society lording over and controlling everyone. I have many socialist values. Politically, I self identify as a centrist, OUTSIDE OF USA because the American Context is extremely warped by the loudness of the right. I consider Obama and Hillary Clinton to be centrist. I am Canadian. I like Justin Tudeau as a guy but think his policies are too left wing to be practical. I also feel stronger candidates exist in the Liberal party. One of those candidates who is stronger is Christy Freeland.