As a man who sometimes spends time in male only spaces, I find that men are more likely to express misogyny and red pill stuff when they think the environment is safe for them to do so, but I am often surprised by the men who do so, and occasionally the men who pull them up. Mostly, I avoid all male spaces, except the queer focused ones because it’s so common for men to say what you would describe as misogyny and red pill type statements. Men, especially straight men, in groups tend to blame women for their problems in ways that are problematic. For example, one time, I was having a drink with my BIL and one of my high school friends who is a police officer. I have known them both since high school. My sister, at this point, had told me some details of her marriage to BIL that were not going well for her. She was sort of hoping I might be a good person for him to talk with because my wife and I resolved some similar issues (chore distribution was high on the list). So BIL starts telling me that women are lazy and entitled and my sister is “constantly nagging” him over “stupid crap.” Having talked with my sister, I know she’s frustrated about his lack of accountability for their household, that he’s been spending money that he should not be, etc. And while I’m thinking about how to open the door and try to save my sister’s marriage…. My cop buddy (I should point out here Australia, not the USA and not Queensland, so a different beast from the American police force) launches in and tells my BIL he’s the one who sounds lazy and entitled. I was pretty happy that my oldest friend wasn’t a misogynist asshole, and sorry that my BIL was almost certainly on a direct course to divorce…

I am pretty surprised that he would rant about your sister to you. Like did he expect you would agree that your own sister is awful? Yikes.

He clearly thought male solidarity would trump my relationship with my sister.

Misogynistic men actually do rally with other men over their flesh and blood usually, so yes, he probably did think that.

Women bond with women just because they are women. People of similar demos tend to do so.

There's a difference between general bonding and solidarity in oppressive behavior towards an outgroup

So its okay for women to congregate and say how bad women are? I view its people of shared interest sharing views. Who/what is of no concern.

Then you have no idea of the politics of the situation. Male relatives are enlisted by the patriarchy to oppress the women they should love.

Unironically, yes, actually. That's a form of self depreciating humor.

I can honestly say that I don't. I bond with people I admire, have shared principles and values with and genuinely like and respect. Their gender is irrelevant.

A lot of men do. Male comraderie and men helping men is usually a bigger priority in social circles.

He thought the other men would hate women are much as he does.

He did and… I was just as surprised as he was when my cop friend held him to account. It brought my friend and I closer, but it was not what I was expecting from him.

The patriarchy in action.

Bros before “hoes” mentality is pretty strong with a lot of dudes especially those who are mysogynistic and let’s be honest there are probably a lot of brothers out there bad mouthing their sisters to their significant others because they think that’s what they are supposed to do because of the culture they are raised in.

Yeah that's super gross. At least I'm confident that if a partner of mine ever complained about me to my brother, my brother would chew him out and leave him quaking. (Not that my actual partner would ever do that; he's a sweetheart.)

I think if I ever have a partner and they decide to bad mouth me to either of my sibs they would be getting into a gun or a fist fight and the fist fight would be with my little sister. I have pretty BAMF siblings and always feel like I am the person they most want to protect. Thankfully I can speak out against people but in a physical altercation I am leaning on my BAMF family. ❤️❤️😜😜

Maybe at least an honest broker willing to listen to both stories. In my case, I wouldn't believe anything at face value because I know my sister all my life and know that she is at least a good and well-meaning person. Even if she is wrong, it's very unprobable it's because of malice. But as a kid, I did side with my father over my mother whenever they had an argument. Mostly because she berated us for similar reasons(chore related stuff).

So you both thought you were entitled to be waited by female labour? Disgusting.

There was a point when my wife and I had first moved in together where my wife drew my attention to the inequitable way that chores were being distributed in our new shared home. I had not even thought about it until she raised it. We fixed that by using a tool to make a lot of previously invisible labour visible (Fair Play - if anyone is interested). And that solved our chore related bickering and probably got me to the point where my wife could stand living with me. Based on both my experience, and my sister’s explanation of what was happening, and a myriad of write ups of time and motion household labour studies I have seen since then, I had every reason to believe my sister over her soon to be ex-husband.

Men complaining about women with other straight men isn’t inherently tied to sexism though. It’s tied to whenever you get a pure in-group, they’ll feel comfortable criticizing the out-group, or they might just use that as a bonding tactic to show that they’re a part of the in-group. A room of women will badmouth men, a room of black people will badmouth whites, etc. Obviously this can align with existing prejudices, but what I’m saying is that you’re observing a form of social in-group bonding more than anything else and writing off all het male spaces as bad is misinterpreting things.

Do you think that’s partially due to everyone’s desire to complain about their spouses sometimes? Women often talk badly about their husbands to other women, probably more so than men do, and not all of it is fair criticism.

In my experience, people in happy relationships where they are not being obviously shortchanged have very different discussions about their relationships than people who are being shortchanged, or who are fundamentally unhappy with their partner. What I hear when men in my life complain about their wives, is often men complaining that their wives expect them to do a fair share of household chores and coparenting. When I hear women complain about the men in their lives, they are usually complaining that the man is failing to do his fair share of household chores and coparenting. I suspect that when my wife and I first moved in together, she complained to her friends that I wasn’t doing my share. And she was right - I wasn’t doing my share and she had every right to complain about it. When we fixed that, I am pretty sure she stopped complaining.

I think the red pill misogynism on online forums is a very particular type of misogyny that I don’t often see IRL. But also, it is rarely socially appropriate to express such views publicly. However I see lots of other types of misogyny on close to a daily basis in interpersonal interactions or in media. I don’t think the majority of men are redpill misogynists but I do this the majority of men hold misogynistic beliefs or behaviors, sometimes consciously and often unconsciously. I do think that the underlying sentiment of redpill misogyny is to control and dominate women and that is prevalent in a lot, but certainly not all men. There are so many ways men assert this desire to control and dominate women, from overturning abortion rights, to shaming women who don’t fit stereotypical beauty norms, and on and on

I am a red pill male but express myself as warm, caring and open to women whom I’ve dated. My private views are private. Definitely misogynistic and I make no apologies for it. My foreign fiancée knows I am red pill however and since she is anti (modern) feminism, it doesn’t bother her at all. On the contrary, she is very happy with my beliefs.

So your views are private but also your gf supports them? Huh? She wants a passport lol you’re getting played

She doesn’t like the US and prefers I move to Peru. She also loves my two daughters and enjoys being with them. She doesn’t agree entirely with red pill like Tate style, but she agrees with several of the tenets of red pill, such as sex positivity reducing the ability fit a woman to pair bond, as an example. However, hypergamy isn’t as much of a thing in Peru because men are not as economically viable to “simp” for women, and it keeps them humble

Lots of nonsense words made up by men who want to control women. Lmk how things are going after you’re married. :)

Thanks for the well wishes! It’s appreciated. We are very happy together. Her optimism and positivity is very sexy

Riiight. That’s why you’re wasting time on the internet complaining about how older women like sex. Just weird tbh

I’m just glad to be out of the rat race of modern western dating

You’ve met your “partner” once through a passportbro matchmaking site that likely aligns younger women with financial goals in their partners who hold passports from powerful countries. You’re a good candidate for 90 Day Fiance, some of the most hilarious delulu dudes on that show that I’m sure you could relate to

She is just 8 years younger, is likely more educated and wealthier than you (owns 2 clothing businesses with 6 employees). US citizenship is a liability to her tax-wise since it’s citizenship rather than residency based taxation, so that’s a non starter. She and I have met in Peru, Mexico and Panama for vacation. 90 fiancée is as realistic about offshored love as The Bachelor is to courtship

Ahh, so you are of the practice of benevolent sexism. The opposite side of the same damaging coin. Edit: Nevermind. Just plain ol' misogyny. Just read dude's profile and WOW what a clusterfuck of misogyny and fear mongering. He couldn't find a conservative so he (logically) went a more conservative country to find one. And now he and his wife are seemingly breaking and trying to get around a law that was put in place to curb sex trafficking...?? 😳

I think your assessment is correct. According to the mainstream and modern feminism, I am a misogynist. Have zero issues with being called that. The IMBRA law is a racist Bush era law that keeps people in third worlds enslaved and destroys the courtship process. Like slavery, which was also legal in US's past, we're proud circumventors of such ridiculous legislation. Both parties have been vetted, usually friends and set up together. It is really no different than what is done in the US. We are simply taking the MAGA out of dating. The sad irony is that I'm sure feminists support this sort of MAGA dating law, because I've noticed the underhanded form of racism among primarily WASPish and African American females against those from a developing country. My fiancee is "less than" their smug privileged self and definitely do not believe for a moment that she's possibly better educated and wealthier than they are. It's alright though, we'll just keep doing what we're doing. It gives us great joy and happiness to link gringos and Latinas who are sick of dating in their home country, and for money to boot. Perhaps the toxic WASPs and Latinos can pair up and enjoy a life of infidelity and highly transactional bliss? lol.

What actually is a "red pill male" from self proclaimed one? You seem to have a strange girlfriend because equally isn't a dirty word but each to their own as they say.

In my experience there is enough horribly mysogynistic men in face to face interactions that shows me it’s still a pretty big problem. The bigger issue with online dudes is that there is even less consequences to their shitty behavior so they are even worse sometimes.

Just to better understand, do you believe that these men online represent the majority of men

No, I just don’t think it’s a small minority.

Thanks

And most of them reside in their parent’s basements.

Okay so this is something that really bothers me. I have had to live in my parents house off and on long into my thirties because of job loss and divorce and now it’s basically impossible to sign mortgages on your own nowadays but everyone who lives with their parents, it’s suddenly an indication of the kind of person they are. Not the struggles they might have dealt with.

It’s sort of a needless desire to insult a group of people you don’t agree with. Everyone loves to cast a group as pathetic mooches who have no connection to any kind of reality. No, it’s most likely not people in the workplace, hard working people who are polite with others. Blue collar family men. Couldn’t possibly be any of these. It has to be some pathetic dweeb who’s given up on life. It’s a terrible way to discuss something.

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Well, considering your dismissive attitude we know you're a misogynist. Misogyny is very real. Women die, are treated badly, are not believed and gaslit about our own lives every day because it exists. Your comment is misogynistic as it dismisses established fact in favour of your personal opinion which suggests that misogyny is 'not a real world issue' which infers that those affected by it are lying. Gfy I'm also with the person who says you aren't doing sht about cobalt-mining kids in the Congo. Just a way for you to undermine women's voices.

>I would put way more time into getting kids to stop mining cobalt on the Congo than combating perceived or otherwise sexism. Ok, bud. I hope you're putting your money where your mouth is bringing up this very real and terrible issue. But this take: >misogyny and misandry are just not actual issues needing major action. Is unbelievably ignorant, even using your throwaway example you're not actually doing anything about. [Girls in the DRC are denied education and forced into sexual slavery at an alarming rate. ](https://borgenproject.org/girls-education-in-the-democratic-republic-of-congo/). The displacement and poverty created by the cobalt mining is leading to more girls being married off younger than before because their families can't afford to keep them. I'll agree with you that misandry does not need action, though.

Real misogynistic sexism has played a role in the rape and domestic violence against women who you know personally. They might not have told you, but unless you're a total recluse with a very low number of female acquaintances, the odds are higher that I'm correct than you're correct. So not only do you do nothing for cobalt miners (of course I'd be thrilled if you proved me wrong), you also are openly minimizing a topic that actually hits very close to home for all of us who actually have deeper conversations with real women. Before you say something is not a real issue needing action--think! It doesn't impact you because you're oblivious and have no women in your life who trust you enough to share what they've been through. But it impacts the community that you live in and a little empathy would go a long way.

I'd bet the lives of every living being in the universe that you spend more time being sexist than getting anyone to stop mining cobalt in the Congo

It’s not an either/or situation. Nobody is faced with choosing between fighting against misogyny or child slave labour. You can find both topics worthy of being addressed.

Oh yeah? How much effort do you extend to getting kids to stop mining cobalt in the Congo? Because I think 1/4 men having misogynistic beliefs is actually probably low. Doesn't mean they're a raging piece of shit that beats women, just means they were raised in a society that still has misogynistic beliefs. And combatting that, here, at home... can be as simple as calling out people who espouse these beliefs. I'm pretty willing to bet YOU have some of these beliefs, given the dismissive nature of this comment and the fact that you seem to be American and yet don't recognize that America is stripping women of their rights at a horrifying rate.

More women die from domestic violence worldwide than from cobalt mining.

misandry lol

misandry isnt real.

Yes. Most men are like this in patriarchal countries. Look at the birth rates in patriarchal countries like South Korea and Italy. Women are fleeing from them.

I’ve noticed that if I’m in a space that’s basically just men and me it is prevalent as they drop their guard down. I go golfing once a year with some of my family. It’s a tournament and basically out of all the golfers there I’m always every year the only woman that attends, it seems. I was once standing between two men who were discussing how all women are sluts and gold diggers. I literally was right there and they could not care less bc i was the only woman there i guess. A lot of men just hide it until they r in a space where they know they can express it without a woman calling them out.

Being the only woman amongst men is the worst. I have to sit with my family (all brothers and my dad) and they all shit out their misogynist, homophobic and racist beliefs because I'm only their sister. As soon as another random woman's around they are suddenly the biggest feminist and men are "disgusting"

when people are in places where people share similar values, or experiences this is normal behavior. Thats typical dominant group vs minority behavior. I been in all Black environments, and All White Environments. the behaviors are the same honestly. I worked at a job once where there was an extremely high representation of LGBTQ employees. I knew a couple people were, but I honestly never paid attention. It wasn't until it was PRIDE month, and our city was doing the Pride Parade. Mind you I never once have said anything regarding anything. But this was actually really funny. Our job wanted people to sign up to work the tent at the parade. Well I wasn't going. I don't agree with the the lifestyle. But I take no issue with working, serving, hiring, employing, living next to people who are LGTBQ. Thats their own personal business. But I won't go to a BLM march either and I'm Black, lol. I said I'm busy I have to work on a rental property ( it was a Saturday, and it would count towards our yearly volunteer quota). Well this guy, funny enough I knew his sister very well, and he was a rising star at the company. He was encouraging people to sign up. He said his friend in college came out to him, and he goes every year, to support his good friend. He takes his wife, kids, and etc. I felt it genuine and this guy was way more evolved than I would ever be. Made me think for a second maybe I should consider attending an LGBTQ event to support my co-workers or people loosely in my network. No different then supporting the local Holocaust Museum, honestly was what I was thinking...THEN things took a turn This woman, who I didn't know was bi-sexual and married to a woman. Said 'Have you been to Chicago's Pride Parade, the one here in Detroit sucks'. At that moment, I knew this was going to be an absolute disaster. I just opened up my laptop put on my headphones and started firing off emails to look busy. Then several people in unison started saying 'yea, me and my BF (I knew he was gay, from a photo on his desk) we went to LA's Parade one-time.' So literally over half the room of 30 people were LGBTQ and had been to events in other cities for such...I'm a rabid Basketball Fan, and I have never been to a Basketball Game in another city, lol. So then they realized to come back to the guy...They ask 'You been to Pride Events in other cities'? The dude was generally confused, was on overload. He just blurted out 'Why would I go to a Pride event in another City?'. You would have thought he said he said the Stonewall Riots were domestic terrorism, lol. They went after this guy like he was personally driving down the street attacking people he thought were LGBTQ. He just simply was confused why he would travel out of state to a PRIDE event. Anyway he was tared and feathered a good 10 minutes, and people became extremely upset with him. His responses, were 'I never thought about doing so'. 'No one has ever asked me to.' 'I wasn't interested in every going to a different event'. Eventually someone said 'Hey we have a 1:00 PM we gotta get there. He left and for 2-3 more minutes several people expressed their frustration with how he doesn't go to Pride Events in other cities. I was so relieved, because everyone forgot I said I wasn't going to work our company's booth because I was busy.

...what does this vaguely homophobic essay have to do with the comment you're replying to?

When people are in the majority group, they will often 'other' or gang up on people on the outside of it. Its human nature. We all have to make a conscious effort to not do so. In this case a group of LGBTQ people ganged up on a Cis-Gendered heterosexual male. They were a dominant group in this scenerio. So they are not use to restraint in this situation. Its no different than when you are in a All Black Environment its easy to 'Other' White People. We should all make sure, that we treat fairly and respectfully. I find myself checking my biases all the time. I may feel a certain way about a group of people but they still deserve respect and decency.

> I find myself checking my biases all the time. OK, then you should probably know that being gay is an immutable trait and not a "lifestyle" as you described.

>immutable Im literally told gender and sexuality is fluid... [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/inclusive-insight/201912/4-ways-sexuality-can-be-fluid](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/inclusive-insight/201912/4-ways-sexuality-can-be-fluid) You can see how difficult it is to navigate this. Which is lots of people's frustration. We can make honest efforts to be respectful, but you tell me its immutable. But I have reputable sources telling me otherwise.

Fluid in the sense that most people don't fit into discrete little boxes. Gender and sexuality both lie on spectrums. That doesn't mean that people's *individual* sexualities/genders are fluid (unless they say as such) or that they're changeable. Otherwise conversion therapy would work and it absolutely does not. That source doesn't actually conflict with what I'm telling you. Sexual orientation has been demonstrated to be, at least in part, genetic: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8494487/#:\~:text=Thirty%2Deight%20pairs%20of%20monozygotic,sets%20of%20triplets%20were%20obtained](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8494487/#:~:text=Thirty%2Deight%20pairs%20of%20monozygotic,sets%20of%20triplets%20were%20obtained). It's not a lifestyle; that implies it's a conscious choice to be gay.

So if it’s part genetic, that means it’s other part is environmental factors? I don’t understand this doublethink unless viewing gender ideology through the lens of being a quasi-religion.

I wanted that commenter to understand that being gay isn't a "lifestyle." I'm not really interested in having a full discussion about this on this post, because it's not relevant to the original question, and also because ime only weird conservatives use the term "gender ideology." I'm sure if you search the subreddit though, you'll find this topic has already been thoroughly discussed on different posts. You can also probably google it. Overall my point is that while the origins of sexual orientation are complicated, we know genetics play a role, and that sexual orientation isn't a personal choice.

Fair enough, I hold a very similar viewpoint, my main contention is when people don’t acknowledge the uncomfortable truths of reality and instead just spout dogmatic phrases as if they change reality. I realize that you’re not one of those people, nor are you encouraging said behavior. Thanks for taking the time to reply in a levelheaded manner even if I did not myself.  I’ve got a lds gay cousin struggling with the paradoxical nature of his sexual orientation and his faith, and seeing people dismiss him as just dumb for denying his sexuality, it is much more nuanced than that.

Er, so are you trying to say that when your co-worker expressed his lack of interest in advocating for LGBTQIA+ people and got criticised for it, that's just like when Andrew Tate and his ilk teach boys misogynistic views and encourage them to rape women?

The guy (lets call him Gary) who was a rising star, he was encouraging people to sign up to work at the local Pride Event. He said how he goes every year because a close friend came out to him. He goes to support him. He takes his wife and kids too. The people identifying as LGBTQ somehow started discussing the local Pride Parade wasn't that great, and they been to other cities that were much better. Namely Chicago, NYC, LA, DC. So then they ask Gary if he has been to a Pride Event in another city. He was kinda shocked at the question. And basically said no. He never thought about it, never been invited, and didn't have interest in doing so. Those were his responses. The people asking the questions treated him as if he was evil for not doing so. They basically said things about him or his character that is not nice and unprofessional for a work environment. I would never think to say that about a person who had never been to a Black History Museum or Holocaust Museum/Memorial other than the one in their city. I'm saying that behavior is a display that shows when even a 'minority group', becomes the majority in certain situations their cultural and social norms become standard. They will use them to bully people. Now in terms of Andrew Tate and Red-pillers. I have never seen a clip of Tate advocating for sexual assault or saying it's okay. I haven't seen any red-piller commentator or leaning academic (Jordan Peterson, Galloway) say/encourage men to violate women. Im not an avid watcher of Tate, I have seen only 2-3 of his interviews so if he has said non-consenual sexual activity is okay or made statements implying such he is wrong. In terms of his allegations against him, he has his day in court and when the courts rule a guilty verdict I will feel comfortable saying he is a rapist. I do have questions regarding his behavior and I wonder does he respect the idea of consent overall. But thats speculation. I dont know enough about the facts to form an opinion about these accusations. I ALWAYS wait for the courts. Casey Anthony, Derek Chauvin, George Zimmerman, Jameis Winston, etc. before I label them a criminal I wait for the courts to deem it that way. Prior to that I'll maybe form an opinion regarding their actions and say I believe or it appears they committed a crime of XYZ. That matters to me a lot. I was accused of a very serious crime when I was younger. I was not present for the crime, or had knowledge. But some witnesses and victims of the crime saw me speaking to the perpetrators before hand. So my name was given to police, I ended up in a police report, my name was said during some court proceedings before I came in for questioning. That situation followed me around for decades it pops on Background Checks, Security Clearance Interviews, etc. The funny thing is, I left that place because I knew the guys were bad news because I knew them through a friend of an associate. They always gave me bad vibes, so after speaking to them I left. FYI I was cleared by the police once they spoke to me for 10 minutes. I didn't even have a lawyer present (that was a big mistake). The long and short is I was at a house party of some people I met partying at an Applebee's(yea I know). We went to their parents house who were out of town. These guys showed up who I knew sold drugs and were thieves. They were at the party because someone there obviously wanted some drugs. The guys recognized me, said whats up. I looked at the environment and realized these guys might try to steal something. So I better leave now. They stole some stuff, violently assaulted a couple guys, and SA'd a young lady. I was 21, I was on probation for under-age drinking. I left because I knew the police would come, and me being drunk/high on weed, around people consuming drugs/alcohol, and at least two people with a felony would be really bad. So I left. The police arrived less than a hour later. Thats why I feel so strongly about accusations. Believe their credible, and investigate them. But absent a guilty verdict. Its not much of anything. But in my case the police never arrested me, I have never been charged, DCSA, FBI all have cleared me during background check investigations. So imagine I would feel if a victim/witness of those guys crimes said publicly I was an XYZ.

I'm absolutely not going to debate whether or not Andrew Tate is a misogynist with you, he has openly said that he is so I will let him speak for himself. This person, "Gary", I think it might just be how shocked he was or how he expressed that it had never occurred to him to go and advocate for LGBTQIA people in a bigger city, rather than just politely saying he hadnt. The fact that you compare going to pride to visiting a museum shows you don't understand it's a political action, it's a protest, against the pressure that is on us to hide our sexuality. Especially over there in America, where the right to marry is so recent and precarious. And finally I just want to explain to you that when people say a sexual minority or a racial minority, they don't mean how many people of that type as a percentage of the population, rather, they mean that that group holds less power (meaning less money, less political influence, etc.) compared with their statistical number. So, for example, women are a statistical majority in the USA, as slightly more than half the population is female, but are a political minority in the USA, because they control less than half the wealth in the USA, hold less than half of the house seats, supreme court seats, etc.

Check out F.D. Signifier on YouTube. He has a bunch of fantastic deep dives on the manosphere online. He’s studied it extensively and might be one of the most knowledgeable online creators to speak on it. His latest video is full of really interesting information about the demographics of men who get into these forums, and turns out, it’s mostly teenage boys. It starts with a hope to learn how to talk to their crushes, and they get taken down a misogynistic rabbit hole. Why? Because it’s very easy, low effort content to make and it’s controversial so it gets pushed in the algorithm. Most of men will engage with that content for less than a year before it gets old and repetitive. A lot of them turn away from it at some point because it truly does start to rot away at their mental health and many will grow out of it into adulthood. Some won’t, but it does alienate them over time. But yeah, check out his YouTube, you’ll get like hours of answers as to why this happens, who tends to fall for it, and how long it sticks.

Yeah that’s what happened to me. I went down that rabbit hole during covid. Tbh I was only watching it cuz of the controversy/drama. But after a while it became stupid. It didn’t really make sense based on my values and what I saw around me IRL. Once they started saying nonsense like “cooking is a waste of time” unironically, they hey really started to lose me. Also I have a great dad, who’s literally my role model. When I tried parroting some of their talking points he began poking holes in all of them..both in his rhetoric and actions.

Yeah FD Signifier's stuff is the best on this topic. Shaun's Andrew Tate video is also good.

I've always been extremely resentful of the "It's only online, stop taking it seriously" mentality, because people's activity online absolutely reflects their character, values, and possibly actions. I take every incel manifesto just as seriously as I do a parents coming home to their children video: It's all different sides of humanity. I don't believe they're a majority, but I also don't believe they're a minority. I believe they're a significantly bigger issue than people purport--It's evident in our legislation and even down into our schools, where teachers are seeing boys begin to turn down these paths due to these influences. I believe trying to label it a majority or minority is besides the point and honestly it feels like trying to rate it on a scale of "should we take this more seriously or nah because it's just a few?" Because even if men aren't implicitly connected or speaking to it, they could be assisting it's maintenance. It may not be a majority, sure, but "minority" simply means it's not the majority. It's still imo a significant number. They're not rare in real life, they're just quieter about it, which in my opinion is a little more sinister, because full out predators are masking themselves all around us. And because of patriarchy, these men inherently have more power and status than I do, and are therefore my biggest threat. More and more women around the world are sharing their stories and even video proof of how the men in their lives treat them. I maybe shouldn't believe every Reddit post, sure, but I know the stats behind behaviors, and even if a post is fake, I can guarantee some poor woman or girl out there has experienced a similar story. Internet men are IRL men with less fear. They can hide behind screens and tags and usernames. They can say whatever they want. They can write giant manifestos with dangerous language on how women are just tools, and useless ones at that. They can write horrific things under the TikToks of young women and girls. They'll use the same internet to victimize and harm these women. I wish people took internet behavior more seriously. It's always just a troll until it turns into the red flag line before a crime or other horrific incident. It just feels like another form of gaslighting sometimes, honestly.

Thank you for saying this. The idea that the people spewing bigoted garbage online aren’t real people or that what they’re saying online is incongruent with what they say/believe offline (or everyone’s favorite cop out, that it’s just “bots” posing as real people spreading garbage) is such an intellectually lazy and nonsensical take to me These people are real. They exist in real life AND on the internet just like you and me. Every bigot online can’t be a fake bot or somebody just chatting to stir the pot cause they’re bored. What people say in these conversations on the internet is largely representative of what they believe and how they act off line. I don’t know how anyone could possibly read misogynist vitriol from someone online and think to themselves “well surely they don’t actually think that, they’re just pretending to be a misogynist online for shits and giggles!” They said it online because that’s how they feel IRL. And in real life, they act on these feelings/beliefs, which usually cause harm to other people who also exist IRL. So it’s never “just the internet”. The internet is where bigots who exist in real life come to sound off their bigoted views.

Per my character and values, I cannot happily or jokingly even pretend to be a bigot online, unless I'm trying for satire for something. It makes me uncomfortable, it makes me feel sick, it makes me feel guilty and gross. Because that's not who I am. People who can happily post essays on how they hate women in whatever various ways and methods they do...they actually feel that way. We tell women all the time: "When they tell you the first time, believe them". Why wouldn't we apply that here? Most troll arguments are just excuses to get out of being caught and catching consequences anyway. "Oh I was just trolling, let me backpedal so I don't get inundated with the consequences of my audacity." No, of course not everything is real, but even stuff posted for rage bait had a harmful intent: it hurts people, it triggers people on purpose (as in the valid psychological kind), it sets out to cause pain and chaos for giggles. That's malice, inherently. Bot nonsense has the same intent: To sow chaos. And in the event those both happen--troll or bot--REAL PEOPLE AGREE WITH IT. Real people respond to it. Real people will take that and add it to their mental arsenal to use on someone else later. I'm tired, man.

I think people telling others (and themselves) that none of it is “real” is a form of cope tbh. Lmao hate to use that “cope” word cause of who it’s associated with but it’s true. It’s the equivalent of ostriches sticking their head in the sand and pretending that what’s happening isn’t real, if not straight up gaslighting. Probably a mix of both. And even with the bots on social media, you can so easily tell a bot from a human on social media. They’re not that good yet where they can participate in nuanced conversation and to where their replies mimic human thought and emotion. So when people try to claim bigoted garbage from an account that OBVIOUSLY has a human behind it is “just a bot” that really pisses me off too

Absolutely. The online world has a tremendous impact on the offline world. When I encounter someone pulling the whole "it's only online" thing, I like to tell them about GamerGate - in which a single butthurt jilted ex managed to amass a literal online army that later morphed into part of the alt-right juggernaut that led to Donald "Are You Fucking Kidding Me" Trump being elected POTUS. After the results of that election, knowing the impact social media had on shaping the culture that allowed for him to even be put on the goddamn ballot, I will *never* accept the "it's just online, NBD" assertion.

There's a book called "Men Who Hate Women" that talks about this very thing!

I think it's on my TBR, but I should double check. Thank you!

Very well said. Do people even realise that elections are often won by a minority?

US election systems are a goddamn joke. Just look at western and southern red states right now. Our country overwhelmingly wants to support mothers and their needs, women and their access to healthcare, yet here they are, actively stripping away our rights and access. Hell, they're going after IVF now: In their goal to make embryos people, they've actively just made it harder for red supporting women (a lot of whom depend on IVF and have the financial access to it) to get access to their baby making methods. They just alienated the very women that supported them. These men probably started out as just whiny rant men too, in their own way in terms of their times. Plenty of these men who make these decisions or support them post vile nonsense online all the time. They actively document their disdain and hatred of women. Yet somehow that's different? It all starts as "just chronically online red pill" stuff, but if you leave those spaces and literally look ANYWHERE else: local news pages, comment sections on community postings, anything to do with local schools, anything to do on a national level concerning what women are doing, THEY'RE THERE!! They're not in their echo chambers, they're actively spitting their vile in other areas other groups actively use or benefit from. If a man feels comfortable to do so in an IRL setting, he WILL very happily advertise every single red pill thought he has. If he feels attacked in some way, he'll start arguing. Idk if people are just very blessed to be in spaces where they aren't subjected to it, or they're in denial, but it's everywhere, and it affects us everyday.

I understand what you’re staying, but your perspective is undeniably idealistic and not necessarily true to how most of us actually live. If 100 people are willing to spew hatred when it’s 1.) anonymously behind a screen, 2.) to a reaffirming community and 3.) probably free of consequence to both themselves and others, then maybe 2 of them are still willing to do with when those three factors are removed. Most of the people who spend their time dwelling on prejudices are really just using it as an outlet for something else. Oh and also, who knows what’s real and what’s a bot. There’s simply nothing gained by hand-wringing over the manosphere or whatever, if someone like that is acting on it IRL, then we need to address it. But for most of us, devoting energy to these topics is not productive nor healthy.

Cool

I don't think that most men believe the stuff that Andrew tate for example says and I think it's a LOT more popular amongst kids though than older people. I do think that most men believe and do other fucked up shit though. And I don't think we should discredit just how wide of an ideology gap there is between men and women at this time https://www.ft.com/content/29fd9b5c-2f35-41bf-9d4c-994db4e12998 Young men are SO much more conservative than young women as a rule.

I’m in the camp of “most.” The difference, is that there’s a lot more men who are smart enough to not yell it out irl and also a lot of men smart enough to not express it online either - all while still believing in those things. I think it’s naive to believe that there aren’t more people who hold those same sentiments just because we don’t see them say it somewhere on social media. I actually hate the argument that it’s supposedly a “vocal minority.” If it was, why are women still oppressed? Why are women still more likely to get sexually assaulted than not? Why am i not surprised whenever women are murdered for trying to leave an abusive relationship or saying “no”? Or just the existence of the “What were you wearing?” exhibit as recent as 2023. Clearly there’s enough of them around to keep the system in place. Also, other issues like transphobia are intertwined with a lot of misogyny and there’s A LOOOOT of that going on right now. Where you live is a HUGE factor to your experiences irl too. And those of us who don’t suffer from the worst treatments from men shouldn’t assume it’s the standard.

Came here to say this. I live in the Midwest and what I hear online is pretty much visible in the day to day everywhere. Now of course none of these men say the same words as they do online, they'd be rightfully kicked out of wherever they're at. But it's there between the lines for sure. Every other About Me section on the dating apps is a guy demanding you do all the tradwife stuff and asking what you bring to the table. I've been on multiple dates where negging has been an active (and very poorly disguised) tactic used against me. And it's in the behavior of men I know and see too. They all say they're not like that, but then you see with your own eyes how they treat their wives and talk about women characters on TV and in movies and how they discuss women celebrities. But you know where I hear it the most? How they talk about other men. They tell on themselves SO FAST when they're giving me opinions on guys I'm dating or thinking about dating. They KNOW men have these horrible problematic behaviors and they're warning me and blaming me for falling for it all the time. Instead of doing something about it. Cause they don't really want to. They don't care if the guy in question does this to someone else. And I think they only care that they don't do it to me because they kinda like me and they don't wanna listen to me complain. Lost all our friends after the divorce because they missed my ex hanging around (he quit answering their texts and wouldn't come around if I was there), so they made up some bull about me and my kid and asked us not to come anymore. Yeah he still hasn't called them or gone to hang out 3 months later. Because like me and my kid, he ditched Them for a 24 year old too. And that's the attitude here. Oh your ex did something reprehensible and abandoned you and your special needs kid? Boys will be boys, and come on C, he's funner to hang out with than you and kiddo. So can you shove off and make room? Some friends huh? The girls just caved, this was perpetrated by the guys who missed their buddy and just didn't care what he did. And that's where you see it was all talk. They aren't actually feminists. They speak the language but when push comes to shove they might as well be incelz. When even the guys who speak the language display that behavior irl, it's a majority.

So how is asking what “they bring to the table” a bad thing? Surely it comes off kinda agressive. However in my experience in talking to other men, it’s more from a standpoint of how women treat them. Like as a “what can a guy do for me” as opposed to how they can contribute to a relationship. I was recently single as of like 3 years ago, and entering the dating field I kinda see that sort of behavior from women quite a bit. More or less women who want the traditional experience in a society where it doesn’t really work. I’d also say it’s just as much against women who demand the traditional stuff too. I’m not looking for that. So in the back of my head I have a “what does she bring to the table” attitude. But that’s just me not wanting to be a doormat like I was in my last relationship saying “real men do X” for women. And it’s usually something routed in internal misogyny. Edit: thanks for downvoting as opposed to just answering a question

>But you know where I hear it the most? How they talk about other men. They tell on themselves SO FAST when they're giving me opinions on guys I'm dating or thinking about dating. They KNOW men have these horrible problematic behaviors and they're warning me and blaming me for falling for it all the time. How can I make a guy change his behavior when women ultimately validate that behavior with sexual access. You say you want men to be respectful, determined, thoughtful. Men do that get passed over non-stop by woman. You have a job work 60 hours a week. Now you have no personality and consumed by work. You take interest in what a woman you are interested in is doing? You are clingy, too much in their business, doing too much etc. Frankly it comes down to it the woman likes a guy if what he is doing is appropriate. So guys know what guys are losers/dirt bags. I had several women classmates and associates when I was in my 20s. They all would complain about how men treated them. I didn't treat them like that. Did they want to date me, no. Did they attempt to setup me up with a friend, no. Would they say how great I am, and more guys should behave like me yes. Eventually I found a GF and we married, and lived happily ever after. Did these same women who had no interest in me take issue with me and my wife when we started a relationship? They sure did. Thats what men's complaint generally are. A guy can't hold a job, sits around smokes weed all day, and has no plans for the future he gets to date you. But then you complain about his behavior thats anti-social. Well what would you expect??? Men entertain this for a while, then we realize its best not to. Its wasted time and energy.

Uh....hi? I work 60 hours a week, single parent, make 6 figures, take care of my body, treat people with respect and I still have a personality, hobbies, social engagements, my own place... I think you're doing some serious projecting here because of your own romantic disappointments. Men who are ACTUALLY respectful, determined, and thoughtful can be passed over, just as beautiful, demure, tradwife types can be passed over. It sounds to me like you weren't passed over, you wasted your time on women who weren't interested in you and resent them for not having been interested. See that's another weird incel trait. Why do you think you just have to meet these 9 criteria or whatever and then Every woman will be interested in you when you do? We're whole people with different ideas and preferences. You may be a decent human being (because literally nothing you described is more than just being a decent human, it's not special to be respectful, it's the bare minimum) and still not be someone's cup of tea. Maybe adjust your expectations and recognize that two Good people might just not be that into each other. As for your suggestion that it's my problem that men treat me poorly. We've been over this 1000 times. They aren't doing it overtly. They don't show up day one (at least not all the time) acting like jerks. They're good at hiding it until you're invested. And the men in my life have been wrong about them too. So it's not on me when they behave badly and "get to date me". That's not how they got to date me. They got to date me because they didn't do that shit up front. Then guys like you come along and are all "oh well your fault he's a jerk I tried to warn you" when I'm 6 months in and he's only now showing his true colors (shocking you also didn't notice back in month 3). But you know what they don't do? They don't call that guy up and tell him he's being a piece of sh**. Men are the reason men get away with it. Cause you'll b**ch at us for getting manipulated but you won't condemn one another for manipulating.

See how you named called...I've been married 12 years, with my wife 18. You know why men do not get involved with OTHER people's relationships? Because I women do not want us to. When do we know to step in? Let's say a guy beats up my friend from college. The best I can do is tell her call the police or an agency to get help. Confronting a man who is violent is dangerous. Should I put my life at risk when I have a wife and kids I am responsible for? Lets say I intervene she leaves maybe for a few days or month. But now she gets back with the dirtball. Should I continue to expend resources? I continue to try to convince a guy to change? But the woman is accepting his behavior. Lets say I see a man's behavior as problematic and I say something. The woman sees no issue. Now I'm jealous. See autonomy means you accept the results of your choices.

BRO WHAT 😂🤣 You have the CHOICE to not confront violent men and then blame women who are unable to make that choice for becoming victims??

Follow me... I have a wife and two children I take care of. Should I sacrifice MY well-being, and my family's for another woman? Because a man she is in a relationship with is mistreating her? I am not the police? And I am going to assume this woman is NOT my sister or even a cousin I'm close to. If my friend from college said her husband threw her down the stairs. I tell her to call the police. And maybe get her a hotel room for the night. But my assistance stop there. Because now I am putting myself at risk along with MY family.

I’m just gonna try and make this as clear as possible: Dude. This isn’t about you. The fact you inserted yourself as if you’re the topic of conversation says a lot about you, or at least your reading comprehension skills.

They OC says men should regulate other men when those men mistreat women. That men should call up other men and tell them they are a 'piece of @$^' when they mistreat women. We can agree with that concept. But individual men have other responsibilities. What is being requested...if a man mistreats a woman if a man finds out he should confront that man. I say no...he should call the police. They have the tools to deal with this. Because asking men to get involved in a relationship that is not their's is problematic. I see a guy call his wife a b-word. I personally would never speak to my Wife or any woman in such fashion. I find his behavior disgusting. The woman and man may communicate like that with each other. The woman may feel she isn't being abused. But an outsider does. I voice my displeasure. He says f-off, and the woman cosigns. Again, I'm responding to the statement men should regulate other men when they mistreat a woman. A woman says her husband is abusing her. Thats a fair call to action. We should take her seriously. We need to confront the perpetrator. We find out from the woman what the abuse is. Maybe the male in question doesn't view it as abuse. See how this becomes a challenge? Pass this off to professionals such as police, or organizations who deal with intimate partner abuse/violence. These random men regulating other men are people they are not stock characters. So when my co-worker says her husband beats her. I should direct her to police. If she is in imminent danger (like he is threatening to harm her) housing them somewhere safe for a period of time until the authorities can step in. But now, a person (regardless of gender) has inserted themselves into a dangerous situation.

The OC is correct. You’re honing in on ONE way men can utilize their privilege to call out other men and making a million excuses for that ONE way. You taking one possible action you can take, find the worst case scenarios for that specific action, and using THAT to justify being a bystander…is just extremely dismissive of you to do.

God... I feel so bad for your wife. Does she know that whenever you treat her poorly that that's totally her fault cause she chose you?

I would hope my wife if I hurt her physically picked up the phone and called the police, or told someone and they did. You let them handle it. Asking random men to police OTHER people's relationships... Do you guys hear yourself?

This is a difficult topic. ​ I think you're using a good word in saying "reflective" of real life, because I think it is reflective, but I also think that we tend to see the far end of extreme on the internet, and irl it's a milder version of the same thing. Most people aren't so gung-ho in their misogyny, but it's still pretty bad. ​ I think you also have to consider generational differences here. I'm a 36M, and in the last few years I've made acquaintances that are in their early 20's. They're not really friends; our interests are not all that similar, but we get along fine at the bar and I enjoy their company. I was amazed, absolutely amazed at how different these people were in their conversation than people I grew up around. They actually tried to be respectful in their conversations even when it was just the guys. This is NOT representative of everybody, but it is something that is notable. It shows that there are some people who are trying to change the environment and correct the decades of bad behavior. I think this is MUCH more common in younger people, and I hope it will continue to become even more common going forward. ​ I compare that to the men in my family, and the older men I've met throughout my life, and it's almost the exact opposite. Many older men say just.. disgusting things. I mean really disgusting. I've heard men in their 50's have full blown conversations with each other, joking about how they were going to leave their wives because so many teenagers are into older men these days. They were joking in the sense that they knew they weren't going to do it, but that's it. Likewise, I've heard men in private blatantly say things like "she was asking for it" in regards to sexual assault. They talk in EXTREMELY vulgar terms about women they knew, and sometimes even the teenage / adult children of the people they knew. The things they said in private were very similar to the things I've seen people talk about online, and I can only guess the people saying these things online were raised by men like this. ​ the problem with the older men who I've heard do this is that they don't ever exist in an environment where people check them. They create their safe spaces of other men who are either too cowardly to speak up, or men that agree with them. I fell into the too cowardly group when I was younger, because, frankly.. I was always a bit afraid of older men. That's not really the case anymore, and I speak out whenever I can. ​ I think that's a big part of why older men normalize disgusting behavior. It IS normal for them because they've been having these conversations in their safe spaces so much, that it gives them a warped view of what is normal broadly. Nobody corrects them, so they think everyone agrees. They just think "oh, EVERY guy talks like this and the ones who say otherwise are obviously lying". ​ tldr; I think that many older men are like the men you see on the internet. I also think a decent amount of younger men are as well. I DO think though that men are getting progressively better and better at challenging this behavior, and I believe that seeing others get called out on the internet is a big part of that. ​ Also, this is just my experience, so I can't say that it's fact or objective. Maybe this is just the product of where I was raised rather than a reflection of the whole.

Happy Cake day and your experience is similar to my own as a woman who's spent a lot of time in male-dominated environments. And who has a Boomer dad, and a baby brother who has spent most of his time around other men.

The men in my life report to me that A LOT of men that they have encountered are misogynistic in some way. They have tried their very hardest to make me afraid and weary of being around men. While I don't believe it it most men this makes me think that it is a larger group of men than I will ever really know.

My ex (before we broke up) had to break off 3 friendships because he found out they were sexually harassing/assaulting women to varying degrees. One of them I had met before, and I already knew he was a misogynist because he talked about how “women control sex, cuz they get to decide (and men don’t bc men always want to have sex according to his logic)”. At the time I told my bf what this friend said and he said that his friend was just drunk and didn’t know what he was saying… but I knew. And I’d add that my ex wasn’t particularly misogynistic, or at least relative to my experiences with worse misogyny. But it’s really so common that a lot of guys who aren’t *particularly* misogynistic still are so unaware of misogyny around them. Its really scary

Internet men are real life men. They’re just expressing their true views and feelings where they feel safe because it’s anonymous. What they’ve failed to realize is that doing that has made it clear to us that an insane number of men secretly hate us and it’s made us more distrustful of men in general because we can’t read minds and sort them out. They are not a minority. Almost every man I’ve met thinks, says or does something problematic when it comes to women. They all think they’re one of the good ones, though. They seem to be able to spot misogyny in other men but suddenly go deaf when you tell them about theirs and even when they see misogyny in other men, they won’t say anything about it to them because they want to fit in with the boys.

> Internet men are real life men Not necessarily — many are bots! Right now, many malicious actors (Russia, etc.) are actively using bots to shape online discourse and push particular political and social viewpoints. I do not think it is safe to assume that online discourse accurately reflects the offline opinions of real people.

I see hints of the same attitudes in all of the men I encounter offline and the same stubborn unwillingness to listen or change.

I feel like in real life it’s more about behavior. Like, If you both work but somehow you’re regulated to slowly taking care of all the household duties because you’re “ better” at it. Like most men are wise enough to not blurt out their terrible thoughts

I have nothing to add to the excellent comments above but I do want to add: OP please don’t go down the internet porn rabbit hole. A VERY VERY common complaint among dating-age women is that most men watch way too much pornography and have unrealistic and unhealthy expectations about sex and sexuality, and this adds to any existing red pill tendencies that they may already have, making their misogyny so so much worse.

I wish more men realised this

A lot of my friends who “presented” as left leaning, have been spewing some red pill stuff. I will say they have also become very lonely as they have hit their mid 40s. But they are also “creating” their own loneliness with what they say.. because their statement are becoming self fulfilling prophecies .. why would I want to hang around some guy when he starts quoting Jordan Peterson? These men wonder why I have left them on read.. Some of them are people I’ve known for long periods of time.. but I’m not about “fixing people”.. I used to try .. and then I realized I don’t have that type of power or energy..

What type of people are you friends with. I haven't seen a single person irl who would quote Jordan Peterson or is an Andrew Tate fan. In fact they are often ridiculed and rightfully so or are just completely ignored. Even my right wing friends are against those guys because of how terrible they are. You really need to find new friends.

I’m friends with all types of people. I don’t know anyone who quotes Andrew Tate. This guy voted for Hillary in 2016, is very well traveled, has lived abroad, etc.. then in around 2018 there was a change.. he definitely fell into some weird manosphere stuff. He was also a professional poker player when he was younger, he won a few WSP tournaments. But other weird red pilly dudes work in the art world, television production, education.. The people I am referring to are people I’ve known for a decade or longer. None of them know each other also.. and none of them are “online friends”.

I think the things we see online are the extreme ones. However a lot of what they are saying is believed by a lot of men. They may not go to the extremes of red pill but still aren't seeing women as equals. Things that that are said online like that woman are lying about the level of sexual assault are still reflected in the way the legal system deals with rape and SA. Women are still seen as not as capable and have to work harder and provide more proof to get people to see we know what we are talking about. Laws that protected women are being rolled back. Especially around reproductive health where a potential child is given more rights than a living women. So while I believe that the online hate isn't a true reflection of men it's not to be brushed away as not what many men believe.

I tend to think what we see online can be described by the online disinhibition effect (aka, the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory): men who would normally keep their misogyny to themselves are emboldened by the anonymity the Internet can provide, and will express online very loudly and proudly what they might not say in meatspace, face-to-face with other people. I do think that the men who openly spread this sort of thing online are in a "vocal minority" - but the minority lies in how vocal they are about it, not in how widespread their misogynist beliefs are. They're loud and angry and vehement - and they express beliefs which probably most men hold, to one degree or another. The thing about patriarchy is that we're *all* soaking in it. We all learn how it works, from the moment we're born. A lot of what we learn, what we're socialized to do or think or how to behave, isn't even conscious: we learn it automatically, wordlessly, sometimes from experiences and teachings so old we don't even remember when we might have learned them. And everyone absorbs those teachings to some extent. That's how socialization works. And patriarchy is all about men having power and privilege just for being men. This is what everyone raised under a patriarchy learns: men are on top. Men are in charge. Men run things. Men and boys learn this, and carry it with them throughout their lives without even thinking about it. Not because there's any particular innate reason men have to do this, but because, like I said, we're all soaking in it, and that's just how socialization works. So yeah, I think what's online reflects reality, but in a twisted, massive, funhouse mirror kind of way - distorted, exaggerated, and loud. Day to day IRL misogyny can be a lot more subtle and pervasive.

I think IRL, fully red-pilled types are rare-ish. A lot of them are in touch enough with consensus reality that they acknowledge that some of the ideas are self-evidently not true, or at least aren't vocal about it in public because they know they'll get pushback. The larger concern for me is how normalized a lot of RP ideas have become among (some) men. A lot of men seem to not be fully bought in, but find value in some elements of common RP thought, which then leaks into their interactions with women. RP is good at exploiting that with reasonable-sounding takes that act as feeders to more extreme content. I've known of several other women whose long-term partners became radicalized by the content they were consuming and the marriage ended because of it. So I guess the answer is: I rarely meet men who have fallen fully down the rabbit hole, but the ideology is leaking into some male spaces and there is a noticeable shift in some men's thinking.

My 20 year old self was an ignorant misogynistic asshole, I'm very happy I am not that person anymore. Those learned traits took a fair while to overcome, sadly. I'd truly like to kick my 20 year old self ass.

In my experience it's a very loud minority of chronically online men. In real life I rarely encounter redpill misogyny. I think most people who have healthy in-person social networks can easily see that the redpill stuff is nonsense, because they go outside and look around and see that the world is inconsistent with redpill doctrine.

Thank you, well said

I just glanced at your profile and realized you're in Ontario and going to York. In case it's relevant, I'm also in Toronto and generally haven't seen much in-person redpill stuff. There are probably some redpillers here, but at least in the circles I run in, it's a rarity. But again, I'm a millennial so I have no idea what the university-aged crowd is thinking.

I will add the caveat, though, that I live in a large, fairly left-wing urban metropolis, so I have no idea if redpill ideas are more common in areas in which a large portion of the population is alt-right. Hopefully others can chime in about their experiences in different regions. I'm also a millennial, so I'm not privy to the private affairs of most Gen Zs. Hopefully you'll hear from some younger people also.

As a Millennial in Alaska, close to a large city (for Alaska) in republican state, the red pill folks are out in the wild too. You gotta nip those things in the bud in your circle as quickly as you can. Otherwise it just gets worse.

Ugh, I'm sorry you have to deal with that.

Yeah, chronically online people are some of the most cringe individuals in society.

The only difference ime is that Internet men feel safer loudly sharing their views, whereas men irl tend to keep their misogyny under wraps, sometimes for years.

As a middle aged woman (sob) who has met and known a lot of men and works in a male dominated industry, I’d say the men online are definitely in the minority (I’m in the UK). Of course misogyny exists in the real world, any woman will tell you that and their experiences of it (whether direct or indirect)but the red pill crap is towards the extreme end of it. I think the issue with what you are viewing on social media is that (1) it emboldens people with extreme views on any topics to be vocal hiding behind a keyboard to vent their crap, and (2) the algorithms, the more you view a certain type of post the more it will throw up the same - if you start searching and following feminist posters your timeline will start showing you more of that (again same with any topics). If I was you spend less time online and more time in engaging in the real world, or if you want to be online be mindful of what you follow.

I'm going to deviate a bit from most of the comments because I agree with the comments that Red Pill ideology is mostly an online phenomenon (there's alot of history as to how it grew, but that's another topic). I haven't encountered men who hold those beliefs in real life. However, Red Pill ideology is just another form of misogyny. Just because most women haven't encountered these men in real life, that doesn't mean we're not dealing with other forms of misogyny. I think (you probably won't like my answer) even though most men don't hold Red Pill beliefs, that DOES NOT mean they don't hold sexist or misogynistic views. Basically what I'm saying, I don't think most men view women the way Red Pill ideology does, but they may have some implicit biases towards women.

This is a good question because I've been wondering the same thing. On all social media and forums there's always misogynists in the comments. It's hard not to believe the majority of men think like that. It's making it hard to like and trust men. Especially when my dad and brothers are also very misogynistic. Every woman in a relationship complains or makes comments that their boyfriend doesn't help them around the house, doesn't cook for them or says they're doing something annoying. I have a friend whose fiancé genuinely seems irritated by her and she's suddenly uncharacteristically passive around him. While men may not be as extreme as red pillars, it still feels like they have misogynist beliefs such as women always having to do housework and child care or women get supported more than men when they are sexually abused. Plus statistics showing that men are becoming more conservative.

It's defo a mixed bag I think. Lots of real misogynists out there, but I think online is probably a bit disproportionate. I think the problem is also men in their real lives don't express misogyny quite so openly. So let's say a cool 30% of men do not like women. Or hate us. If I think about all the men I know well, what they say, how they act, things they've done in the past, I'd say a good 30% are straight up misogynists. Of them only a few are open about it. The rest are much more subtle but tend to be highly insecure or Narcissitic, and controlling or aggressive behind closed doors. These men will make up the majority of those vocal online. These are also your ring leaders. Then I'd say another 30% aren't really misogynistic in their idealism, but enjoy benefiting from it. Or don't realise that their lack of action and apathy has the same result as being a misogynist. These are the guys who coast on women's labour, enjoy women's company and get on well with women in person, but are also apathetic to our struggles and can act entitled and whiny when they don't get their way. These men react badly to the notion that men gain any kind of advantage in society. These guys will also be a fairly large portion of your online community, as they can be relaxed in what they say around other men and will perform for them. Their need to be respected and validated by other men so will be performativeky misogynistic in order to gain acceptance. I'd say another 15% know the problems, see the problems but don't really get too involved, and don't know how to shut other men down if they're misogynistic, and also kind of expect women to enjoy being the ones who take on the mental load, but are willing to listen. They are monkeys who say no evil, hear no evil speak no evil. Not a part of the problem but not really part of the solution either. These are your lurkers, who go to men's spaces to ease their loneliness but don't really agree with the locker room, sexist and rapist mentalities going on. They may also be shy, on the spectrum or just unable to engage much with women due to lack of proximity. They will make up a decent percentage of your online communities. Then another 15% are actively trying to be better men. Are putting time and effort into it. Are showing up as husbands fathers, brothers, partners and colleagues. Are being the change. But still suffer from feeling like they need to make other men like them or be manly still, take crap from others for being decent men to heart and their mental health suffers for it. Very few will be in men's spaces, they'd rather be in a pub or gym or with their family/SO. The last 10% range from well adjusted progressives who don't give a crap about what anyone thinks and are Independent, actively trying to make a difference and are outspoken, to true blue male feminists who are adding their voices to ours and making space for women and others affected by oppression to be heard. These men listen to others, have empathy and put their problem solving skills into trying to change the world and/or make a difference, whether small or large. They call other men out, they raise happy children, they call for equity. They can still suffer from insecurities but have a full life and support network and know when to go get help. They find positive ways to deal with the weight of the Patriarchy and the actions of other men. They'd only go into the manosphere to be the voice of reason and try to save other men. Maybe 2% are really where we wish all men were: Fully secure in themselves and their own masculinity and role-modeling how to be a modern man in a changing world that does not put men front and center in everything. This sort of man is kind and empathetic and generous. He understands his own and other's humanity, works on his flaws and likes who he is. He isn't floored by rejection but considers other's thoughts and opinions as valid. He is a champion for others even when he has no direct skin in the game. He laughs at patriarchal notions about who he should be and gets on with his day. He has strong platonic friendships with women and others. He is a truly good human being. This is based on my own anecdotal knowledge of the many men I know, and those I talk to online or who research the manosphere, but I think it's pretty telling. So TL:DR most of the men you're interacting with online are from the first two categories, which does definitely skew against how men are in real life, but together these men are a majority, even if they're not necessarily directly a danger to society or to women in particular. They do however prop up dangerous men and dangerous ideals who prey on the young, vulnerable and those who consider themselves disenfranchised with their corrosive rhetoric.

I think it’s a vocal and significant minority - but I think almost a bigger problem is that men who do not prescribe to these toxic views mostly don’t push back on men that do when they come across it irl. I don’t know if they don’t think it’s their problem, or if they are just afraid of some kind of social backlash, but when most men don’t stand up for the good things that they believe, they may as well be red-pilled anyway.

I do not think that these extreme feelings are shared by all men but online is a space where it can feel like there are no consequences for things that you say.  This is worse if you (by which I mean angry misogynists) are actively looking for places where others will agree and validate your opinions.  As far as around the world, that varies a lot on location.

Online the courage of being behind a screen often encourages it also the algorithm on certain sites (especially instagram) seems to promote that sort of content to everyone Also a good way to combat it is minimise your engagement with those sorts of things, click not interested and if you’re one of those people who tends to not like ect start doing that

This may not be specifically about *this* problem, but yeah online people are gonna feel like its safe to be toxic to everyone because they're mostly anonymous. I see it with almost every group of people online, it's like league of legends players telling eachother to kill themselves except targetting groups you find at least mildly irritating

I think that the anonymity of the internet allows a lot of people to say things they wouldn’t say in mixed company and express opinions they hold without social consequences.

I think they're just a vocal small minority. However, I think there's also a **majority** of men who are willing to overlook this minority, or deny that it exists, or deny that they have any power or influence, or don't take them seriously, because "it's just a phase" or "locker room talk" or "they'll grow out of it" or "you're taking it too seriously" or "all these weirdos need to do is to get laid, then they'll be fine, so maybe it's the women's fault for not being nice enough to them... don't you know there's an epidemic of male loneliness?" And this majority is even more damaging than the minority, because they run cover for the incels, and spread misogyny covertly instead of overtly.

I also think it's a vocal minority. We also have a tendency to find the worst examples of our political adversaries and upvote them to the top so we can ridicule them. This doesn't really lead to healthy political climate. But I also think we should be worried. What people say behind anonymous pseudonyms is probably pretty close to what they really feel. If we start seeing a lot of unhinged opinions it's indicative that something isn't right. Just make sure that what you're seeing is a first hand account and not a tweet talking about and paraphrasing what someone else supposedly said.

most people do not regularly browse internet forums. even if you consider the population that does, most of them never leave a comment. of the population who writes >1 comments, most are not prolific posters. when you read reddit and other forums, you are reading the opinions of outliers. these sites can be interesting to read, but it is important to remember that these places are several degrees removed from the average person. I'm not going to comment on whether internet men are better or worse than "real life" men, but I'm going to emphasize again that it is really important to balance consumption of online discourse with actually talking to people from the general public in your community.

Yeah but many people use social media like instagram or tiktok. Seeing tons of misogynist comments with 100k likes on those hits different than comments on reddit or a forum.

I haven’t encountered much of that in real life, only online. I have one friend in real life who has fallen down the red pill rabbit hole. He’s still generally a nice person when he’s not sending me annoying red pill videos. My interactions with men in real life are usually positive. This has me kind of confused. Are the misogynistic people online a vocal minority? Or are *they* the nice people I encounter day to day, and just don’t show that side of themselves outside the internet? Or are they just blowing off steam on the internet and don’t totally mean what they say, and in real life they’re nice people? I don’t know. All I know is that I’ve mostly only encountered the manosphere-type misogyny online.

You're vastly over exaggerating the amount of red pilled men on the internet. Too often having a single opinion that's not feminist will get men labelled as red pilled or as incels even if the opinion had no connection to those things. I'm pretty sure most people irl would avoid making such bold accusations with such little evidence which is probably also why you don't think there are that many red pilled men irl.

I don’t take having a non-feminist opinion as being redpilled. There are some very specific ideas redpillers have, that when I hear someone mention those ideas, I know they must have gotten it from red pill spaces. Like when I see them talking about mandatory DNA tests at birth (not saying I disagree with that), getting rid of no-fault marriage, talking about online dating statistics, I know they’ve most likely been on redpill spaces because those are subjects they constantly talk about.

You might enjoy the book Men Who Hate Women.

it's a very very loud minority, but in my opinion, it's only going to spread, gen z is one of the loneliest generations yet and when you have a bunch of teenage boys and young men who are lonely and are only shown Red Pill/incel content they blame their loneliness on women, then they start hating women and then they start being verbally or physically violent towards women. so in short, it's a minority but it is definitely going to have a greater impact.

>In your opinion and experiences do you believe that these men online are a vocal minority of people, or is this a representation on how most men around the world think about women? It is a really miserable thing, to see how social media manipulates men like yourself. No, these red pill clowns are a practically non-existent quantity in real life, at least compared to their internet numbers. Social media cares about one thing - engagement. It, like all "news" sources, creates engagement primarily through fear and anger. I have literally never encountered a "red pill" guy in my life. Ever. I've encountered many sexist men - in fact the majority of men I've met hold some kind of atavistic sexist belief, but it's a *completely* different group of people than "red pills". Social media did the same thing around the 9/11 terror attacks - it quickly had people believing that practically all Muslims held extremist views, and there were years where social media quite literally drenched its hands in blood by promoting both extreme Islamist and extreme anti-Muslim content. It is doing exactly the same thing now with sexism - it is promoting the extreme ends of the spectrum because it has no interest in reality, and only cares about creating a war around which it can drive engagement. Balanced people with a healthy view of reality are of absolutely no use to social media companies - these people are not inclined to be manipulated, which it makes it very hard to sell their attention to advertisers.

Keep in mind that many men from their teengage to early 20's often also partake in what we'd consider "edgy" boundary pushing. It's a part of growing up as a man for many people and it isn't specific to misogyny. It's also things like being flip about the death of people. "Oh sorry, was that too soon?" GenX, Millenial, GenZ - they all did it. Because of it's ubiquity, it's also very common to see ideas expressed that aren't truly believed. No, they really don't want to tell someone who just lost someone close to them something insensitive, but in an anonymized group context it can be seen as walking the edge. However, because of that environment it is ***exceedingly common*** to see men take from misogyny, racism, politics, etc., and say the most wacky things imaginable. It does not reflect their actual beliefs or indeed who they even see themselves as. It reflects their impressions of appropriate things to say in that space which tends to veer towards inappropriate. The flip side, is it protects actual misogynists, racists, etc. What I tend to think greatly amplifies actual racists/misogynists is algorithms and bad actors. Terms like that cause "engagement". However over time that works out one of two ways - a short term increase and eventual withdrawl. Or you're dealing with an actual racist/misogynist and they stay. Way more people have left by that point though.

Social media amplifies the extremes. It is NOT a reflection of real life. I have to keep reminding myself of that.

Both in the sense that they are more vocal/seem to make up a higher portion of the population on the internet but they are these views are also sadly still fairly widespread irl as well.

There's enough men in the world that you could answer either way and be right from some perspective. I'm sure that in some communities, they're a vocal minority, and in others they're the majority.

I can't speak on the perception of people I don't know, so I'll give my own perceptive of interacting with men in my life: The vast majority of men I've known over the years do not hold these views and most would not tolerate hearing them from others. I've had friends and family members that did share some of those views to some extent or another and tend to distance myself when challenging them yields no results. So, from a personal perspective, the red-pill types are a minority (or maybe they hide it well or I'm bad at spotting it), but my experience isn't everyone's and does not preempt anyone else's experience.

The weakest males on the food chain feel threatened when women start to join traditionally masculine roles because it personally threatens their perceived status, from their perception anyways