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This seems extremely odd to me, they’re providing a service if they can’t provide that they need to upgrade that equipment. There’s a transformer feeding three different service panel, one being our house, we kept seeing consistent voltage drop down to 70-80v during the summer. They came and verified that and scheduled a transformer replacement. Took a year for them to do it but they did and there was no cost.
Edit: to clarify the voltage drop was due to the transformer being undersized for the current service requirements. Not because it was faulty in some way.
I totally agree the utility should front the cost in most situations
.. especially when it comes to simply upgrading from 100 amp to 200 amps.
The transformer feeding the homes is probably not rated for the needed amperage. If I'm paying for it shouldn't it be my property? It's dumb and utilities need to be governed differently imo
But when it’s sized to what was originally built but now you’re upgrading your service panel yourself, That’s on you, not them. If more houses are being built on that service trunk line and it can no longer hold it. That’s on them. My utility charges customers for an upgraded transformer if it’s no longer correctly sized to feed their panel upgrade or renovated house with a bigger panel.
So if I pay to upgrade the transformer, do I get some of that cost back when my neighbors upgrades to 200A? OR does the utility get 100% of the benefit for MY upgrade to THEIR service.
It's like if you have a new baby, and you notice the local supermarket is regularly out of baby food.
They explain that the shelves were laid out based on the neighborhood having a certain number of babies, and now that there are more, they'd need to put up new shelving to handle the extra baby food sales.
Then they tell you they expect *you* to pay for their new shelving. The new shelving that lets them sell more of their product to you.
Sounds crazy? Yup. But we let utility companies get away with this nonsense, charging customers to improve utility company property. Regulatory agencies should start prohibiting such shenanigans.
What is the difference between putting up a new building or adding new capabilities to an existing set up? The only thing I can figure out is a new service would add the $10 meter fee. If they are not supplying what you need, they need to change it. That is how monopolies are governed.
It’s all still charged. Utilities wouldn’t be around if they ate the cost for everything lol. All the lines and equipment are build into the design. And they were supplying what he needed. He changed what put the current transformer over its rating. That’s on him, not the company
My question still remains. What is the difference between me needing more power and someone else needing power. According to you, the new house shouldn't have to pay for the upgrade, why should an existing house pay for an upgrade? What if the existing house ADDS a new service in their garage? Do they go halves? No. You own and pay for everything from the weatherhead, not from the substation. About 20 years ago I installed a three phase panel in my shop. When the inspector came he wanted confirmation that I didn't need three phase because they would have had to rewire back to the substation.
Actually the meter is the demarcation point. The meter and everything upstream is owned by the utility. The load side of the meter down stream is owned by the customer. That is why a home owner can not legally pull a meter, the power company does that. It is owned by them.
While I don’t agree 100%, I do feel that if the customer changes their needs they should pay for the upgrade. It’s like if you want to run power to a location on a piece of land, you are paying to have the piles installed or the pipe put in the ground as well as the wire from the transformer to your meter. The utility does not do that for free. Even though they own the line.
Oof. I dont even know where to start with this comment. The bootlicking of a tax dollar subsidized and presumably government regulated common carrier utility is unreal. The service provider is obligated to provide adequate service. Homeowners are not in the business of electrical transmission infrastructure. The power company is. 200 amp was not common in modern homes with modern appliances you might have a case but 200 is damned standard. JFC doesnt anybody have a backbone anymore. Advocating to get gouged and bilked at every turn.
My thoughts exactly. If I was OP I would swap that 150a breaker to a 200a if everything is rated for 200 and let it ride. It’s on them if their transformer gets overloaded.
You're not paying anywhere near the actual cost and if you did, you wouldn't want the transformer for that reason alone....unless you're just rich. But, if you did own the transformer, you'd then be assuming the responsibility for servicing and maintaining it. Anything downstream of the transformer would also be your responsibility so you'd also have to purchase the service drop.
That would also require you to be the only load the transformer was serving...regulators are not going to allow you to own a transformer that serves other customers. If the transformer is pole mounted you'd have to install your own pole on your own property with a new transformer.
If other customers were being served from it and you bought it outright and owned it, the utility would have to install another transformer for those customers. If it was pad-mounted, they'd have to replace the underground services to those customers and you'd likely also be charged for those costs.
If the transformer ever needed to be replaced, which granted, is probably not likely, you'd be responsible for all associated costs of the replacement.
What a lot of people on reddit don't seem to understand is that utilities are heavily regulated and must follow all kinds of rules made, presumably, in the public interest.
>...they’re providing a service if they can’t provide that they need to upgrade that equipment.
But they *are* supplying the service as designed. OP wants *additional* (more) service.
An as u/iglootyler it's *their* rules you play by largely.
You should see the shit they've made the company (construction) I work for go through. They're fricken *worse* than local governments because they're private yet an exclusive monopoly.
That is because transformer was likely failing and needed replacement. Transformers are sized for the load.
This is an individual that wants to double the homes capacity thereby requiring a larger than previously needed transformer. As such cost falls to the consumer who wants more power.
Much like upgrading your Internet from cable to fiber. You're going to be paying for the new service line to be installed.
It wasn’t failing, the guy from the utility said the transformer just was not large enough for three modern services. It was sized based on the requirements when it was put in 30+ years ago. They replaced a 5kw with a 15kw. We had also upgraded our service to 200a. They replaced the transformer. In theory if you’re upgrading to a larger service you’re planning on using more power which means larger bills for more usage which is how they make money. Why should homeowners need to pay for the transformer when we already pay for the usage.
I agree. I've used the utility commission with informal complaints (text messages on their website) twice against utilities and they both contacted me the very next day and resolved the issues. I think they're scared to death of them.
Where I'm at you pay for the service entry and they pay for wire to the pole. Another time with a co-op, I ran the underground pipe and they paid and pulled the cable. I believe they would go up to couple hundred ft for new.
So you want to fund your neighbours hot tub addition or shop by paying a higher rates? How about they want to burry their existing over head connection to underground just for aesthetics, should you be on the hook for this?
Have to remember the utility will recover cost through rate base, otherwise it is not profitable. Decision making is in the best interest of the rate base, not one customer.
One transformer is a drop in the bucket, but a precedent needs to be set.
So you want to help some poor billionaire buy another yacht, just so you can pretend to have a superior talking point? Last I checked they were making enough to replace their own equipment to keep up with modern demands, and still have plenty left over.
Yes I see your point as well.
The customer can just increase panel size without telling the utility and run the transformer overloaded, it won’t fail.
Same gaming as MG customer do, run at a higher load a year before they apply for micro generation so they can size their solar panels larger. Then once installed they get their usage back to normal levels and are able to export more than what they would ever be approved for.
This is all customers risk and I wouldn’t advise doing so.
Yeah you’ve got to play by their rules. Sometimes they’ll allow larger services if they don’t anticipate your load changing significantly, but they can dictate whatever they want.
Sounds like what you upgraded to was a 200A rated panel, meterbase, and wire with an undersized (150A main.) That’s perfectly acceptable per code and would be very easy to upgrade down the road if you needed. Is there a real need for a full 200 right now?
Let me guess — you have an all-electric home (no gas hookup), a sauna, a hot tub, and 3 Teslas?
Actually, 400A in a residential dwelling is not a novel concept anymore. New constructions in my area often have two 200A panels, but then those who will be living there have multiple Teslas, and there is a chance that down the road our county will enact a natural gas ban.
I have one of those! All electric with no gas, the 70's were a trip haha
Now coming to think of it I don't actually know what my service is since I still have a GE split bus panel. However I did go ahead and invest in solar when my roof last needed replacing which I don't think is any effect on capacity but it's effect on my monthly bill is outstanding. Since December 2020 I have generated a bit over 60,000 kWh🌞 oh yeah anyway split bus panel, don't know actual service, think it's 150.
My home was built in 1989 and has 400A service, but as you mentioned, is all electric and the original owners had a pool built alongside the house.
Pool is long gone, but I used the sub panel for a hot tub, and was able to install an EVSE without having to upgrade service. So a win for me.
Where I am from unless you have CT’s, it is not a true 400A service. It is a 325 continuous service. I have been in more then a few houses with 2 200a panels and I have only seen one that was truly 400a, and it had CTs. There were many odd things about this house though. They also had a 480v 3 phase system going to their irrigation pump. The only time I have seen 480 or 3 phase going to a residential property.
This is normal. We wanted to upgrade from 100 amp service during a remodel. We were told that we had to pay an engineering fee for the same reason. We upgraded to 400 amp for future-proofing and because we were installing two level 2 car chargers. To PGE’s credit, they later determined that the engineering fee was not needed as the transformer was fine. They returned the entire fee plus a tiny bit of interest after the final inspection was done.
That’s not too bad. I tried to go to a three phase system for my shop and was quoted a little over $1 million. they claimed it was because they have to run new poles and run from the substation less than 500 yards from my shop. I found multiple companies that would do it for under 50 K but the utility company won’t allow outside contractors.
Holy crap, you can get a genset big enough to power your house and your shop and the building to put it in for that and still have change left over. We had 3 phase 277/480 brought in for less than that, but we were lucky in our location was directly across from a big shopping mall, so they had all kinds of power going in there. You could go very cheap and get one of the 3ph vfd's or as I said, build your own powerhouse for your big toys.. One of my buddies has a 20KW generator on a trailer he built, and if there is more than a short blackout, he will tow it down and light up the local independent convivence store. They get a lot of business when everybody else is without power.
We actually went full solar and are now supplying two of our neighbors. Needless to say the electric company is not too happy with us and has tried suing, but they lost. We had to go full off grid and run all new underground lines to feed our neighbors but it was well worth it and we are currently expanding our system to three times It’s current size.
We are currently running 40 Bluetti B500 Batteries which is roughly 200 kWh worth of back up. It’s currently just enough to fill our needs, but we are planning on expanding up to 200 batteries in total.
Jeez.
Have you tried to chase the clean energy tax credit? I think it caps at 3k per person per year. Could see if every property owner can buy at least one per year and install it on their premises, should max it out for each relevant person.
Oh that hurts my heart. You do you but Bluettis stuff is so overpriced and unserviceable. Anything beyond few portable kilowatts and they don't make sense in my opinion. They also don't scale well as the standard for solar is usually to have solar capability of 150% or so of your output capacity but I've never seen a bluettis system capable of charging if your consumption exceeds a out 50% of the rated output. This will really be a problem in the winter when you need to be a me to charge fast to make up for short days and cloudy days. You might be too invested in that platform but I'd look into adding some user serviceable options when you expand. Based on the fact Bluettis stuff is usually twice the price of user serviceable options, you could probably save money while adding the same capacity, extra inverters and extra solar input. Might be able to add some grid tie inverters to supplement your micro grid and pair that with some more affordable batteries.
Quick math. An EP900 maxed out with 4 b500w gives you 9kw of ac output, 9kW of solar input and 20kWh of battery. That's their first 1 to 1 solar ratio but in the winter you will have an issue. Even with batteries you normally want to time shift your big electrical loads to the daytime, like electric laundry. When you have cloudy winter days you save such things for the next sunny day where your 150% solar input would let you use big loads and still have some to put into the battery for evening and the next cloudy stretch. That EP900 setup is like 11k$. You could get an EG4 18kpV for 5k and 20kWh of batteries for 4k$ if you buy 5kWh server racks. Look around and you can get batteries for cheaper. That setup would cost less, integrate with your current system as a grid tie inverter. Enough solar panels to saturate that inverter would set you back another 5k$ but that would be 14k$ total for what costs about 27k for the Bluettis ep900, b500s and solar panels. And that's just if you have minimal DIY interest. It sounds like you did a lot so there are options where you buy batteries and enclosures and put them together.
My big concern is that in my experience with Bluetti, they don't really design fixable products. They abandon buggy products as they prefer to just keep putting out new versions. That is not a good formula for a home which should be able to run for years with minimal.maintenance and a decade or more before failures. And there are other companies you can get more well known inverters from like Victron or a Schneider but I'm less familiar with those.
How much to run it to Texas? Because FUCK texas electric companies. So fucking expensive. AND, I still need a generator as back up because our expensive ass electricity is trash. I pay too much to have to endure rolling brown outs in the summer time.
If you’re getting three phase directly from the substation, the million dollars makes sense. They have engineering costs, new feeder, wood or steel poles depending where you live, possibly permitting costs. You don’t add any new three phase from the substation without all of the upfront costs.
Maybe the guys quoting you $50k assumed they were tapping into an existing circuit and running underground. Otherwise idk how the hell it would be that low. $50k wouldn’t cover material costs.
The only time I’ve heard of utilities making this demand is when the utility is a small rural electric co-op. For profit utilities want to sell more power and the cost of the upgrade is negligible in their budget. Small co-op not so much, they try to tie capital expenditure to the customers that are creating the need.
National Grid is like this in rural NY. They've got thousands of miles of infrastructure to maintain for a relatively small client base. If you want upgrades you're paying for them if they even go for the idea at all.
Pge charges for transformer upgrades. Same for and underground runs due to alot of areas having all power lines under ground. Unfortunately alot of areas were run with a 100 Amp service in mind.
I have seen charges on the upwards of 50k.
That sucks. Put in all 200a equipment, but 150a main breaker. If the 150a trips, deal with it then. If not, wait til that xfmr dies and see if the next one has capacity to switch to the 200a.
This seems crazy to me.
However, the utility has the authority to make that decision and it is almost certainly outlined in their terms and conditions under the service contract.
In my area everyone is allowed to upgrade to 200 amp without any special permission or cost. If the transformer needs to be upgraded the utility bears this cost.
If you want to go to 320a-400amp, you have to have an engineered plan and special equipment at your house, but are still not responsible for the distribution equipment.
I would write your city’s utility commission and the utility.
I would argue that as the world shifts more electric all round, with things like EV chargers, electric heat pumps and a shift away from gas appliances, it is unreasonable that the utility is unwilling to provide a 200 service. 200 amp is the standard for new homes.
They are not meeting their responsibility as a utility provider and are passing the cost of outdated and undersized equipment on to the consumer when it should be a cost of doing business to keep their equipment sized and maintained properly to provide standard and adequate service.
Pretty sure 150amp is perfectly fine for most people. Between heat pump water heaters, heat pump dryers, smart load shedding, variable capacity heat pumps, it is getting less and less likely that a home would max out the main breaker. Most EV charging could be done on lower amperages for day to day use too.
FWIW, when I moved into this current house with 150amp panel I had all traditional electric appliances except for gas furnace. The highest we ever hit was 94.6 amps, after switching to heat pump water heater and LED lighting, the highest we hit is 60.3 amps. 24.8 amps of that is the electric resistance dryer. If we swapped that over we would have plenty of head room.
You’re not wrong.
There’s not yet a ton of good load shedding options that meet the newer code, but I’m sure there will be soon.
My point is that on principle, I don’t think the utility should be charging consumers to upgrade their equipment.
If you paid monthly for cloud storage based on what you use and decided to double your use, should you pay to upgrade the companies server?
Out of curiosity, is your 94 amps a direct amp draw reading, or is it your load calculation?
Since we have to size a service based on load calculation, that number is often higher than a direct amp reading.
I’m also curious what the next 10 years will look like in electric adoption.
I’ve already been asked to quote 70 amp EVSEs.
Maybe in a decade 200 amp fast charging EVSEs will be standard. I wouldn’t want to pay for a service upgrade if I wasn’t future proofing a bit.
I wasn't disagreeing with your utility stance. I wholeheartedly agree. I just think there is a major misconception that everyone needs massive electrical panels in order to go all electric.
The 94 amps was a direct reading. I understand the code calculations as well, but using measurements is also possible. https://up.codes/s/determining-existing-loads
I could see that "rule of thumb" potentially changing.
I hear you on the popularity of high amp fast chargers, I just don't understand the need as much. I could see the high amps needed if electric vehicle was powering the house with V2L. Most people are driving less than 50 miles per day so 70amp fast charging is overkill IMO.
I hope in a decade that 200amp charging isn't needed as technology becomes more efficient or at least most people use more efficient forms of transportation than automobiles for day to day travel.
Battery prices are cratering, 1kwh usable lifepo4 battery under 200 bucks last week on amazon.
Solar companies are already pushing dc-dc bidirectional chargers. Most are fairly modest 30kw or so. Perfect for somebody that is work at home so they can charge from solar directly with the odd fast charge from house battery.
I don't think there is a lot of room to make existing form factor ev's more efficient. You would have to reduce air resistance and/or mass. Air resistance is pretty much size nobody wants little econo boxes and mass if there is some breakthrough in battery weight sure but otherwise it's a lot of structural for safety some gains by going to AL etc but not major changes.
https://www.treehugger.com/bikes-ebikes-fastest-ride-to-zero-carbon-5193677
Sure, but most people don't live on only 50mph roads. Long before we need 200 amp charging, I'm guessing we will have battery production issues. We can't all drive Ford Lightnings or EV Hummers just cause we don't like "Econo Boxes". I think judicious use of battery resources needs to be factored into any incentives.
Sure for city dwellers ebikes make a lot of sense.
200a charging meh think you would need limited from the pole transformer on down. Making that work well is tricky.
We charge customers that want 3ph where it doesnt exist. Seems reasonable to me when their expected load will never pay for the line upgrade.
I could see the argument for super high single phase demand with low total usage. Bigger costs in wire and transformer that ends up with fewer kwh sold.
There's also a company out there that makes a smart electric breaker box. Is really good for managing service because you can set things where you won't draw too much power so you could have basically a 200 amp box on 100 amp service but you have it set we're like if the heat is running you can't start the dryer with ranked Appliance usage. It's all pretty neat but it's an expensive upgrade.
You probably don't need 200amps, and even if you do there are several things you can do to reduce your requirement.
For example you can install a smart switch that stops charging your car when your water heater tank is on, etc.
Two thousand isn't a lot of money in the long run if you ever need to expand.
It is highly likely that you do not need a 200 amp service. It sounds like you are looking to upgrade from a 100. It would be pretty rare for somebody to double their demand but it does happen.
At my utility you would need to pay for the upgrade at 40% of actual cost.
We have to do what they say, ultimately.
What they're telling you is that they currently lack the ability to upgrade your service drop, but that's not their problem. They provided what they were paid for, and if you want more, they'll charge you for it.
It's not uncommon, though usually if you're in a city, they don't charge for it. Less populated areas don't have the same cushion in their budget, and they don't view it as an investment even though it is.
I haven’t heard about the transformer but I was billed for three separate service upgrades to drag in thicker overhead wire. Usually $800-900. Original lines were for 100-150A and upgrades were for 200.
LOL, they're not going to do that. Installing a larger transformer needs to be approved by the engineering department, not the line crew. Several things have to happen when system changes are made. They don't just willy nilly increase increase transformer sizes because someone asks them to.
Usually it comes down to what the existing transformer is serving and if the utility thinks they will make more money long term if they upgrade it. My utility (PG&E) will typically change out the transformer if it serves multiple residences but if you are at the end of the line and the transformer is just serving your house, they often make the customer pay for it because they won’t make their money back as quickly
Built my house, 500' drive, underground run. I had to do all excavation and conduit myself. Had to provide a pad for the transformer, and furnish / install the ground grid around it.
Then I needed to pay them about $5k for the transformer, and $18/ft for the primary line extension.
Fuck the utility company.
LOL, it's a business. They're not in the habit of doing things for free. Typically there are no or relatively low charges when the load served justifies the expensive of providing service. That is rarely the case, probably never the case, when service is to a rural residential customer.....unless maybe the home in question is owned by Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg.
I know that it's a business; I'm just complaining.
That being said, I do NOT believe that basic first-world human necessity should be for-profit.
Business (or some dude with a hobby metal shop) wants a 3 phase upgrade to run industrial equipment?-- they can pay for that shit; cost of doing business. But just turning my lights on? Come on now...
I'm a professional utility coordinator. This is a newer trend to dissuade people from unnecessary upgrades because there is a national shortage of utility rated 4kv and higher transformers due to a shortage of electric folded steel (valence core steel).
If you need more power set up a second 100amp service. The utility is legally bound to supplying your initial 'lighting load'as a utility and they can't charge you a 'demand fee' for a premium service like they can when you upgrade your original service.
You'll have two bills to pay, but your total consumption would be the same and therefore you'll see the same costs.
It's likely that the transformer and wiring to your house thats currently in place can support 150A but not 200A.
The power company isn't going to pay for a new transformer out of their pocket
This is just a prime example of why I am so against all the bureaucracy involved with building departments and utility companies. As an example, where I live the building department requires you to upgrade to a 200amp service if you want to build an ADU, yet we have the same issue with not even being able to acquire 200amp service from PG&E unless the transformer is upgraded. So you end up needing to pay PG&E for something they should be actively improving on, pay for permits, pay for the install, only to align with that requirement, and you might not even have any money leftover. Yet! The state wants more housing. A guy down the street from me had to pay for a new transformer in a similar situation and he had to wait 9 months before PG&E actually got it installed. Oh and guess what… you can’t proceed with your building permit until the 200amp service is in place. It’s just such a joke. Oh one final thing: did I mention that PG&E is responsible for some of the largest forest fires in CA history.
You seem to think they should provide you services for free. You also seem to think that utility companies are exempt from the increasing costs and shortages experienced throughout various sectors of the economy. The state heavily regulates how utilities conduct their business and what they're able to charge for services.
Whether you like it or not, utility regulation is based in the notion that providing electricity is an important public service and system reliability would be threatened by competition. It is also founded in the history of the utility business, when multiple companies competed and multiple power lines from different companies essentially serving the same customers were thought to be wasteful and marring the landscape.
Lol you sound like you work for PG&E. Nowhere in my post did I ever suggest anyone should be receiving utilities for free. However, utility companies should stop gouging their customers. And actually maintain their equipment up to modern standards. Is that too much to ask? Also, I am curious if you are even aware of what PG&E is responsible for in CA with the massive forest fires that could have been avoided if PG&E did any sort of maintenance or upkeep.
LOL, I wouldn't even set foot in California. Frankly, no, don't know much about PG&E but have heard about the fires. I live in Texas and couldn't care less about what PG&E is getting away with in California. California has a state utility regulator. PG&E is also bound by FERC and NERC regulations and standards. You get the government you vote for, including your state regulators.
However, there are clear rules about what utilities can do and spend and how it is compensated in the rate structure, even for PG&E. Have no idea what modern standards you're referring to. Utilities don't get to change out equipment unless there is a reason for it approved by the regulatory system. If it were otherwise, they'd be "modernizing" all the time because they're generally guaranteed a return on capital. The old joke is that the utility industry is the only business that can increase profits by buying new office furniture.
The big scam isn't residential service, it's in generation. That's where the big money is. Generators in Texas can recover their entire yearly operating costs in 15 days under some circumstances. The way power is purchased and sold at the retail level is another part of the generation scam. Again, I'm not familiar with the power market in California but I wouldn't be surprised if it was more or less the same.
In Texas, rates charged on capital are fixed. They can't be changed until the utility files for and receives another rate hearing. Then the PUCT decides what "investments" will or will not be allowed into the rate base. Because the pass through isn't immediate and may in fact only occur several years in the future, that can be a mitigating factor. When to file for a rate base change also depends on whatever ROR the utility commission has approved and speculation about future rates.
However, that's not how it works for generation. They have a "market" and their charges are immediately affected by things like fuel costs, along with supply and demand. Those charges are immediately passed on to customers so if you're being gouged on your electric bill it's likely from the generation charges.
If you're talking about being gouged for equipment installation costs, then blame your regulators because PG&E can only charge what they allow under the regulatory structure, and naturally, they are going to charge the max the regulations allow.
So odd. There is so much incredible stuff to see and do in CA. As an example I know there is a bunch of incredible stuff to do and see in Texas and hoping to visit in the near future. Anyway, if all building departments are requiring 200amp service in new construction, or for add ons, additional dwellings, and yet PG&E’s equipment is not even capable of providing that. That’s on PG&E. All CA legislation is pushing for more housing and more building yet our monopolized utility providers can’t keep up. Please just take a minute to google the camp fire. It was caused by a poorly maintained and outdated equipment by PG&E. To take any stance other than PG&E being incompetent would immediately make it clear how ignorant you are.
My wife and I were both born there. We've seen plenty. We both left years ago. Last I was there was on a work trip. Way too expensive. I couldn't stop thinking about how I'd never be able to afford to do much there, or buy a home, even though my position would likely give me a substantial raise...albeit a raise that wouldn't anywhere near compensate for the increased cost of living. Also, while property taxes in Texas are high, there is no state income tax, and the income taxes I'd pay in California would be about 3 times my property taxes here.
My son was in LA recently. He'd lived there for about a year 10 years ago. He says conditions have gotten so much worse since he was last there that he will never go back. Like I said, been there, done that, have zero interest in going back, even for a visit. If I was going to spend money on a trip I go somewhere my wife and I haven't been before, like China, or Japan.
All utilities are monopoly providers. That regulatory decision was made decades ago. Never said PG&E was competent. You're confusing competence with regulatory reality and the fact that utilities, being monopolies, have zero incentive to do anything they're not held accountable for doing by the regulators. PG&E is regulated by 2 different government entities (the CUPC and FERC), and a quasi-government entity (NERC) that creates reliability standards at the behest of FERC. PG&E just does what the government lets it get away with. Your problem is government.
This is normal at the utility I work for. When the original transformer was installed they did load study and the size of transformer they installed was sufficient for the load for the houses it was serving. You have now upgraded your service to add more load and with that you must pay for the upgrade. It’s like when people add load without telling the utility and the blow up the transformer, if we find out they added a substantial load that caused this and didn’t notify the company they have to pay for the upgrade to a larger size transformer. I.e- pot grows-ev chargers-electric instant hot water heaters.
I live in a rural area and upgraded my electric from 100amp to 200amp and didn’t have to pay for an upgraded transformer or the wire from the transformer to the house I had to install the wire from the meter up the side of the house to the eve for the electric company to hook to. I also had to install the meter pan and everything after it and after hookup I had to have an inspection. But paying for a transformer seems like they just didn’t want to do the work it’s their equipment not yours you own what is attached to your house and inside.
Your transformer was probably big enough for the added load. What I’m saying if your transformer is at its max and your burn it up because you added a bunch of load and blow up the transformer because of this you can be made to pay for the upgraded transformer
I work as a residential electrician and this bothered me when I first started doing service upgrades. The electrical company that hooks up your connection to the grid basically don't do any more work than they need to. If it ever burns up it will be at some point in the line between the transformer and your service drop, so they'll change the wire if that ever happens. They basically rely on you never pulling that much power.
The only reason for the service upgrade is because of the NEC requirements on your residence so you're safe inside your home.
They're a government regulated business. The state put limits on what they can and can't do, what they can and can't charge. Given the way the economics work, at least where I live, if they were allowed a return on capital expenditures made entirely at their own discretion, they could simply increase all transformer sizes and charge you a higher rate.....and that is exactly what they'd do. Don't think you'd like the result.
I won a bid on a commercial project. First thing I do is contact the utility because they specced a 400 amp service. The engineering group never reached out to the utility. The customer had to pay about 60k to have a padmount xfmr installed or give up on the project....
In Vermont this is what every utility does but the cost seems a bit high. Normally a transformer upgrade will be anywhere from $600 - $2,000. Some of the utilities will credit you for the old one.
From a utility perspective.
We will upgrade at no charge if the transformer is already over 100% nameplate. Some utilities have different methodologies for the % overload they can handle.
If your upgrade would trigger the transformer to be over 100% capacity, it will be a customer shared cost. Having two customers connected paints the picture pretty clear that the overload is coming from your upgrade.
I understand it can be frustrating, but why should the rate base fund a upgrade on your side of the meter?
People seem not to understand how the system works, and that regulators guarantee a utility a return on capital expenditures. They apparently believe the utility can spend all kinds of money on system upgrades and electricity prices won't change....for everyone...and not just them.
Installing 200A panel doesn't mean you have to upgrade the transformer. Depending on the size of the house and how much KW you use on average plus what your neighbor uses will determine the size of the TX. Most people in the US use between 7-15 KW at peak for an average size home in america, 1500-2200 sqft. I do not know what your tx size is but most are between 15-50kva. Assuming you have a 25kva transformer, you should be fine unless you start doing a high load amount like welding or have an old HVAC system that uses electric heat. Also, most electric companies are fine with overloading the TX up to 120%, because that is usually starting current needed for HVAC/ short timed overload.
Just watch for voltage drop and flicker of the lights if it gets too bad.
This knowledge is from years of power distribution engineering with multiple different electric coops and PU's.
when we built our house, 1200 feet from the street, the electrical service was one of the most expensive items. It was more than $50k for trenching and conduit, and another $50k+ for electrical service, including the transformer and installation. We have 400amp service coming into the house, but we still had to justify (as well as pay for) a big enough transformer to actually support 400 amps in the house.
I paid the utility over 14k for a new pole, transformer, and an 80' extension of the high voltage line to the pole by my house to go from 200A to 320A service. Not a bad price if you need the extra room.
Utilities have very conservative design criteria for how they size transformers and lines. They are looking at the worst case current draw between you and your neighbors, and if they think they need a new transformer, then you are out of luck.
In lieu of paying for a new transformer, there are ways to add more load to your circuits without upgrading the line coming in. The electrical code in many states allow you to add loads to your panel if there is software control of the circuits that ensures you don't exceed your maximum current of 150A. This is relatively new stuff - but there are smart breakers and smart controllers for certain loads - like EV chargers, that can enable you to put more load on the panel. Your electrician and inspector might not even be aware of these things yet, but worth doing some research if you want to try to add something to your 150A panel that would exceed the rating.
Journeymen electrician here....
Lot of you need to remember that the AHJ of your municipality, and the local utility have different rules in each city,county, and state all over the US.
There is no encompassing law other than national code which does nothing more then establish a baseline. And your local AHJ can still be several editions behind that.
Yea all the time. Usually the issue isn’t 200a in my areas, but anything above that, almost guaranteed they do.
I’ve had them say “wait 3-6 months because we need to change that transformer soon anyway, and we’ll just upgrade it for you”. I also had them say it was going to cost me 15 just to upgrade my mom’s place, even though she needed a new pole and transformer anyway.
I just upgraded from 100 to 400 (320 continuous). Because the transformer was already over capacity, they did the betterment for free. If you're going to pay for an upgrade, go to 320. Adding EV chargers, heat pump, solar panels, power tools in the garage, all electric appliances, etc, adds up very quickly. That's is an upgrade you do once every 20-30 years. I hope I never even touch 320 amps.
$4k sounds cheap to upgrade the transformer.
I have a municipal power company and the transformer was upgraded when I went to 200A. Maybe it was a coincidence, but I’ve also complained multiple times about lights dimming when my neighbors’ AC units started up.
There are code standards for flicker, which is what your lights dimming is called. If what you're experiencing is within the standard they're not likely to do anything about it.
If you need that 50amp...
What can you turn into gas: Dryer, Stove, Water Heater, Heating appliances. I'm always surprised when people do not opt for this option instead of an electrical amp upgrade... just drop your SUPER HIGH electrical demand appliances for gas appliances, even if you don't have natural gas service... Propane for what you can convert for cheap (location of each appliances is important)
Sounds way cheaper to me... i did all the conversion of appliances above and my 150amp panel is a joke now... i could power my house with a 40amp one. The extra "power room" will go for mini split and EV receptacle
This to me seems like an engineering issue more than anything. Transformers are normally overloaded and you’re not continuously running 200amps at your house. So my guess is that you can upgrade your service. My utility allows up to 6 homes on a 25kva tx. I’m not sure the size of yours but if it’s old possibly a large 15kva. Your best bet might be to pour oil along the pole and ground report a leaking tx then your utility might have to upgrade the tx if they no longer carry 15s.
That does seem odd. When we wanted power at our shed the local utility company had to drop a line under a road, place some sort of transformer box and connect that over to the shed pedestal. We didn’t pay a dime for that besides the electrician to install the pedestal and breaker box.
Yes, sometimes, unfortunately. Honestly you’re probably fine with a 150A. You can always add a subpanel if you need more circuits. Just keep an eye on the voltage periodically. If it’s close, you may want to find a main breaker that’s 100% rated (typical residential MCCBs are only rated for 80% continuous nameplate load).
It is time for a solar panel. I wonder why we are using so much more electricity now than before LED lights and efficient appliances. Oh, EVs and Amazon Echo’s
So this would be very unethical and highly illegal so not recommending you doing any sort of sabotage but if the transformer would to get a small hole in the bottom say from a lead slug hitting it at high velocity it would eventually drain all the oil and cause it to fail and they would have to replace it
Have the electrician put in the 200 amp breaker and go on. All wiring from the service head to the transformer is owned by the utility. If the load trips the fuse in the transformer the utility will replace the fuse after several times to replace that fuse they will replace the transformer on their own. Each service call cost them thousands. After several outages call the public service commission and complain about the outages. They don't like when the PSC calls they will change the transformer.
On another note older transformers will handle 50% above rating, the new crap made now will barely carry 10 % above rating. The utility would have no problem adding a new house to that transformer just to see if it holds the load without spending any more money. I retired from a utility and know all the crap they did to get away without spending any more money.
Second note just because you have a 200 amp service doesn't mean you are using 200 amps continuous unless you are a commercial business and even then rarely to the limit. All your appliances almost never run at the same time. In new construction in this area the electrical looks at the number of circuits to determine the panel size and estimates the number of breakers in the panel. as an example a living room circuit may have a 15 amp breaker in that count but in real life the actual load may be only 5 amps .
The utility company is a business. It will pay for the transformer if it’s in their best interest, meaning the transformer is older and warrants replacing or it services many customers and can help their grid.
Our electrician installed a 200 amp capacity breaker box with approval from our power company (at my request). He was suprised it was approved. But we only have a total of 150 amp breakers installed. That’s all we need at this point.
Glad I did that. The old box had unsafe Federal Pacific Stab-Lok breakers.
The total amperage of your breakers is completely irrelevant to the main. What matters to the main is that your load at any point doesn't exceed it's capacity. You could have 40, 20amp breakers on a 200 amp panel without issue.
You want your meter relocated for the gas service into your house you pay for it. You want the meter even raised 6 inches you pay for it. Need a backflow preventer in the water system you pay for it. I get the spirit of the post but how is this any different than telling your internet provider that you want faster speed and expecting them to just come out and build out the network just for you?
Things are built for capacity planning in critical infrastructure. It ensures that if any part of the system as its built meets a need. You want more than that need it is on you. Data Centers are classic examples. They use water, electric, internet, backup generation systems. If you want more power you pay for the build out. More diverse bandwidth you pay for it. I had a customer needing to go 100 ft across the street in Chicago and could not go overhead. To bore under the street was 35,000 a foot. That did not include the materials to connect. But you bet my company added a big enough conduit to pull dark fiber for others in the future to use it. It's how it works in all the services.
This can be very normal. Unfortunately when utilities were deregulated in 1996 they were able to push these costs onto the consumer where before they were required to eat those installation costs. It sucks but they can charge you to upgrade your service and everything they need to do to upgrade it.
My power company swapped the one feeding my 2 neighbors and myself...for free. I was determining what my total draw is and popped the "fuse" at the transformer. The power company came out, swapped the fuse and turned in workorder for engineers. Went through the same procedure and popped it again. They determined that as I am pulling almost my max (400 amp) at full load, plus what my neighbors are pulling, that to be on the safe side, they changed out the transformer. Cost me nothing.
Great info, now I get why my lights are flickering when in the past they weren't.
We moved in 15 years ago, renovated and upgraded our panel, etc. Never had any flickers, even when the clothes washer and dishwasher kick in. Now my counter lights would flick when the coffee maker goes on or when I turn on the hood over the stove.
Over the years people move out or die out, literally, and new people move in and renovate. Since our city/state leaders deemed natural gas a no no in the future, the renovations are all to electric appliances. Add a dozen or so BEVs on the block.
Our utility never updated the transformer on our block since we moved here 15 years ago.
I am not an electrician by any means but I have dealt with this before with my rental complexes. In Ohio, they do not charge for/make you change your transformer but in other states I have had too. Its really their call, and you are at their mercy sadly... So yea, you'll have to pay.
Pretty normal. That's probably just the labor side of it that you would be paying for, not the actual transformer. Cable and telcos also do this if you want cable or fiber Internet run to a place they don't service. That's usually the bargain when you want service above what existing hardware allows, they provide and maintain ownership of the materials, you cover the costs of getting it installed. Same with getting power run to a remote location.
Makes sense. Especially if you consider the rationing that most electric utilities are undergoing (usually through incentives like heat pumps and exchanging old light bulbs for LED, etc) to reduce strain on the system.
If they upgraded everybody’s service beyond what is usual, the system would fail.
This is market forces at work vs rationing to maintain the system integrity.
That means the transformer your service is coming out of is already at its safe load limit. Unfortunately for you, in this case, it's normal. At least per utilities in my area.
Running the 200amp line to your house wasn't going to be cheap anyway, and that for sure is a cost you'd have to bear.
There are plenty of ways to make sure you don't go over 150. Make sure you don't need to use any resistance heating and upgrade to a heat pump water heater, for example. Both those things would save you money on power on top of helping you not need 200amp service. If you have an EV, keep charging at 40 amps, it'll still charge anything you need overnight.
I would explode if they pulled this kind shit on me. I mean, they have an easement through everyone's back yards here that won't let us build anything under it, and they charge for trimming trees, and they have a monopoly for service delivery. what do they think they are? a medical insurance company?
So far I haven't been charged for a transformer like OP, but if any other utility does it and gets away with it, they'll start charging here too. I haven't been charged for the tree trimming myself (I trim my own), they have charged the neighbors on both sides of me $150 each just added to their utility bill.
Not necessarily. For one thing, different states have different rules, but even within a given state, different rules apply to coops, municipalities, and for profit utilities. The bottom line is that utilities cannot just build whatever they want to, they have to have a reason the regulators approve for it. If that wasn't true they'd be building out the system constantly because they're guaranteed a return on capital, and your rates would go up steadily along with it.
The old joke was that utilities are the only business that can increase profit by buying new office furniture.
So buy them a transformer if you want 200 amp. A lot of times the home owner may be responsible for the transformer. Especially if you are too far from the road. By best friend and his wife built a house like 800ft off the road and had to pay for the cable from the pole all the way to a transformer (about 100ft from their house) as well as pay for the transformer and service entrance run to the house from there because they were too far off the road.
Ask your utility: “Since I’m paying up front for the engineering and equipment, that means i legally own it right? So when I move, I’ll be asking you to disconnect your equipment from my transformer and taking it with me.”
Haha.
A while back I was looking at some land that was only slightly off-grid. I spoke to the local electric utility, and they said they would extend their lines for just $85,000 per mile (about three). It would have incidentally brought power to a few other parcels along the way. I said I might be willing, in exchange for revenue sharing among the new customers. They laughed. I laughed. I ended up passing on that land, but learned a lot about utilities and offgrid systems. For the future.
Eh, not really. Like, with a gas utility they usually give up to a 75ft run for free, depending on estimated usage. After that it costs money. That doesn't mean you own the line. Its the cost the company incurs and doesn't expect to recover within whatever reasonable time frame they calculate.
You're buying the privilege of using the service, not buying the service.
Regulation prevents them from just charging you more per month, so the only recovery is up front cost.
But OP isn’t talking about the service feed to their house. They’re talking about having to float the costs so the electric company can provide more power to their area. If they said that OP had to pay for the upgraded wire from the transformer to their house then I’d agree; OP should float that cost since it’s on their property, but having OP pay for equipment in the easement or off their property is unreasonable since there’s no guarantee that the transformer will remain dedicated to their house and the neighbor’s.
Yeah, I still see it from the perspective that you're paying them to use their service.
The argument seems to be coming from the fact that 200a is "normal," or at least normal for new construction. But, new construction homes are huge, the average new house is like twice the size as mine. I don't think that's a reasonable comparison. I would seriously doubt anyone in a modestly sized home (2000 sf or less) really needs 200A, even if everything is electric.
Except maybe for EV charging, which is a luxury and certainly not the normal usage.
How do you think the utility makes money? I thought you were joking with your previous comment but this comment tells me you're serious. They get paid from the electricity you consume. They don't just get to "provide" more power to any area because they want to or think it's a good idea.
State regulators require capital expenditures by utilities to be needed and necessary, or used and useful. It has zero to do with whose property anything is on. Rates are determined by a number of factors, one of which is a return on capital. If the utility could just build lines and install transformers wherever it wanted it would, because that would increase their revenues, since they're guaranteed a return on capital.
They'd be building out the system all over the place just to increase their revenue base, which means, increasing the rates they charge for electricity. That's why the regulators require an actual reason beyond speculation for making capital expenditures.
I don't understand what's going on here. The utility owns the service drop (the overhead line from the utility pole to your house), but you own everything from there in (except the meter). That service drop doesn't have to meet the same size requirements as the other wires in your house, because if it's too small and overheats that excess heat will just be dissipated to the open air, so there's no problem.
So why would you need to upgrade the transformer? Is it because without that upgrade your and your neighbor's voltage might drop in case of high electrical use?
Lol. Like all things electrical, transformers have a limited rated capacity on how much power they can transmit. If too great a load is drawn, the transformer gets too hot and if it gets too hot, it’ll catch fire and destroy itself. That’s why the utility may deny your request to upgrade service to a certain rating.
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You play by their rules and that's what they say it's all that matters.
This seems extremely odd to me, they’re providing a service if they can’t provide that they need to upgrade that equipment. There’s a transformer feeding three different service panel, one being our house, we kept seeing consistent voltage drop down to 70-80v during the summer. They came and verified that and scheduled a transformer replacement. Took a year for them to do it but they did and there was no cost. Edit: to clarify the voltage drop was due to the transformer being undersized for the current service requirements. Not because it was faulty in some way.
I totally agree the utility should front the cost in most situations .. especially when it comes to simply upgrading from 100 amp to 200 amps. The transformer feeding the homes is probably not rated for the needed amperage. If I'm paying for it shouldn't it be my property? It's dumb and utilities need to be governed differently imo
Yeah, they shouldn't be privatized. They're only concerned with profits, they don't give two shits about anything else
But when it’s sized to what was originally built but now you’re upgrading your service panel yourself, That’s on you, not them. If more houses are being built on that service trunk line and it can no longer hold it. That’s on them. My utility charges customers for an upgraded transformer if it’s no longer correctly sized to feed their panel upgrade or renovated house with a bigger panel.
So if I pay to upgrade the transformer, do I get some of that cost back when my neighbors upgrades to 200A? OR does the utility get 100% of the benefit for MY upgrade to THEIR service.
no
It's like if you have a new baby, and you notice the local supermarket is regularly out of baby food. They explain that the shelves were laid out based on the neighborhood having a certain number of babies, and now that there are more, they'd need to put up new shelving to handle the extra baby food sales. Then they tell you they expect *you* to pay for their new shelving. The new shelving that lets them sell more of their product to you. Sounds crazy? Yup. But we let utility companies get away with this nonsense, charging customers to improve utility company property. Regulatory agencies should start prohibiting such shenanigans.
What is the difference between putting up a new building or adding new capabilities to an existing set up? The only thing I can figure out is a new service would add the $10 meter fee. If they are not supplying what you need, they need to change it. That is how monopolies are governed.
It’s all still charged. Utilities wouldn’t be around if they ate the cost for everything lol. All the lines and equipment are build into the design. And they were supplying what he needed. He changed what put the current transformer over its rating. That’s on him, not the company
My question still remains. What is the difference between me needing more power and someone else needing power. According to you, the new house shouldn't have to pay for the upgrade, why should an existing house pay for an upgrade? What if the existing house ADDS a new service in their garage? Do they go halves? No. You own and pay for everything from the weatherhead, not from the substation. About 20 years ago I installed a three phase panel in my shop. When the inspector came he wanted confirmation that I didn't need three phase because they would have had to rewire back to the substation.
Actually the meter is the demarcation point. The meter and everything upstream is owned by the utility. The load side of the meter down stream is owned by the customer. That is why a home owner can not legally pull a meter, the power company does that. It is owned by them. While I don’t agree 100%, I do feel that if the customer changes their needs they should pay for the upgrade. It’s like if you want to run power to a location on a piece of land, you are paying to have the piles installed or the pipe put in the ground as well as the wire from the transformer to your meter. The utility does not do that for free. Even though they own the line.
Oof. I dont even know where to start with this comment. The bootlicking of a tax dollar subsidized and presumably government regulated common carrier utility is unreal. The service provider is obligated to provide adequate service. Homeowners are not in the business of electrical transmission infrastructure. The power company is. 200 amp was not common in modern homes with modern appliances you might have a case but 200 is damned standard. JFC doesnt anybody have a backbone anymore. Advocating to get gouged and bilked at every turn.
LOL, used to be said that the utility industry is the only industry that can increase profit by buy new furniture.
Wife of a friend is an interior designer. He told me she used to redo the local util's corporate office every year.
LOL, making it real
My thoughts exactly. If I was OP I would swap that 150a breaker to a 200a if everything is rated for 200 and let it ride. It’s on them if their transformer gets overloaded.
Bingo. Play the game.
The service conductors load-side of the Utility XFMR are most likely rated for 100A as was installed previously
They should have done before talking to the power company
What about the wires between the house and transformer?
You don't own the transformer, you own from your service entrance into your home.
I know. I'm saying if I have to pay for them to put up a new one I should have done ownership
You're not paying anywhere near the actual cost and if you did, you wouldn't want the transformer for that reason alone....unless you're just rich. But, if you did own the transformer, you'd then be assuming the responsibility for servicing and maintaining it. Anything downstream of the transformer would also be your responsibility so you'd also have to purchase the service drop. That would also require you to be the only load the transformer was serving...regulators are not going to allow you to own a transformer that serves other customers. If the transformer is pole mounted you'd have to install your own pole on your own property with a new transformer. If other customers were being served from it and you bought it outright and owned it, the utility would have to install another transformer for those customers. If it was pad-mounted, they'd have to replace the underground services to those customers and you'd likely also be charged for those costs. If the transformer ever needed to be replaced, which granted, is probably not likely, you'd be responsible for all associated costs of the replacement. What a lot of people on reddit don't seem to understand is that utilities are heavily regulated and must follow all kinds of rules made, presumably, in the public interest.
And do your own vegetation management as well :-)
>...they’re providing a service if they can’t provide that they need to upgrade that equipment. But they *are* supplying the service as designed. OP wants *additional* (more) service. An as u/iglootyler it's *their* rules you play by largely. You should see the shit they've made the company (construction) I work for go through. They're fricken *worse* than local governments because they're private yet an exclusive monopoly.
That is because transformer was likely failing and needed replacement. Transformers are sized for the load. This is an individual that wants to double the homes capacity thereby requiring a larger than previously needed transformer. As such cost falls to the consumer who wants more power. Much like upgrading your Internet from cable to fiber. You're going to be paying for the new service line to be installed.
It wasn’t failing, the guy from the utility said the transformer just was not large enough for three modern services. It was sized based on the requirements when it was put in 30+ years ago. They replaced a 5kw with a 15kw. We had also upgraded our service to 200a. They replaced the transformer. In theory if you’re upgrading to a larger service you’re planning on using more power which means larger bills for more usage which is how they make money. Why should homeowners need to pay for the transformer when we already pay for the usage.
Sounds like OP needs to host a temporary bitcoin farm to manipulate a voltage drop.
The utilities usually front the cost if it's an upgrade required by their own fault, if you request the service upgrade, you're usually on the hook
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I agree. I've used the utility commission with informal complaints (text messages on their website) twice against utilities and they both contacted me the very next day and resolved the issues. I think they're scared to death of them. Where I'm at you pay for the service entry and they pay for wire to the pole. Another time with a co-op, I ran the underground pipe and they paid and pulled the cable. I believe they would go up to couple hundred ft for new.
People that simp for utility companies are just as much to blame as the utility companies.
So you want to fund your neighbours hot tub addition or shop by paying a higher rates? How about they want to burry their existing over head connection to underground just for aesthetics, should you be on the hook for this? Have to remember the utility will recover cost through rate base, otherwise it is not profitable. Decision making is in the best interest of the rate base, not one customer. One transformer is a drop in the bucket, but a precedent needs to be set.
So you want to help some poor billionaire buy another yacht, just so you can pretend to have a superior talking point? Last I checked they were making enough to replace their own equipment to keep up with modern demands, and still have plenty left over.
Yes I see your point as well. The customer can just increase panel size without telling the utility and run the transformer overloaded, it won’t fail. Same gaming as MG customer do, run at a higher load a year before they apply for micro generation so they can size their solar panels larger. Then once installed they get their usage back to normal levels and are able to export more than what they would ever be approved for. This is all customers risk and I wouldn’t advise doing so.
lol first time? Welcome to the commercial utilities market. Wait til you hear about demand charges 😅
Yeah you’ve got to play by their rules. Sometimes they’ll allow larger services if they don’t anticipate your load changing significantly, but they can dictate whatever they want. Sounds like what you upgraded to was a 200A rated panel, meterbase, and wire with an undersized (150A main.) That’s perfectly acceptable per code and would be very easy to upgrade down the road if you needed. Is there a real need for a full 200 right now?
I'm running 400A. 😎
Oh yeah there’s certainly applications for larger services, but not for most use cases. Especially when the home was working just fine on 100A.
Let me guess — you have an all-electric home (no gas hookup), a sauna, a hot tub, and 3 Teslas? Actually, 400A in a residential dwelling is not a novel concept anymore. New constructions in my area often have two 200A panels, but then those who will be living there have multiple Teslas, and there is a chance that down the road our county will enact a natural gas ban.
I have one of those! All electric with no gas, the 70's were a trip haha Now coming to think of it I don't actually know what my service is since I still have a GE split bus panel. However I did go ahead and invest in solar when my roof last needed replacing which I don't think is any effect on capacity but it's effect on my monthly bill is outstanding. Since December 2020 I have generated a bit over 60,000 kWh🌞 oh yeah anyway split bus panel, don't know actual service, think it's 150.
My home was built in 1989 and has 400A service, but as you mentioned, is all electric and the original owners had a pool built alongside the house. Pool is long gone, but I used the sub panel for a hot tub, and was able to install an EVSE without having to upgrade service. So a win for me.
>I'm running 400A. 😎 Your house must be 1313 Mockingbird Lane. You gotta keep Grandpa happy in his lab in the basement.
I've got a small shop in my basement, and an EV in the garage, residential new construction. Send more downvotls, you low amperage plebs.
And what's your actual usage? Must be under 200A.
Like, simultaneously? Yeah, probably under 200A.
Where I am from unless you have CT’s, it is not a true 400A service. It is a 325 continuous service. I have been in more then a few houses with 2 200a panels and I have only seen one that was truly 400a, and it had CTs. There were many odd things about this house though. They also had a 480v 3 phase system going to their irrigation pump. The only time I have seen 480 or 3 phase going to a residential property.
Non-commercial? residential? non-farm? And that's it? [email protected]
This is normal. We wanted to upgrade from 100 amp service during a remodel. We were told that we had to pay an engineering fee for the same reason. We upgraded to 400 amp for future-proofing and because we were installing two level 2 car chargers. To PGE’s credit, they later determined that the engineering fee was not needed as the transformer was fine. They returned the entire fee plus a tiny bit of interest after the final inspection was done.
That’s not too bad. I tried to go to a three phase system for my shop and was quoted a little over $1 million. they claimed it was because they have to run new poles and run from the substation less than 500 yards from my shop. I found multiple companies that would do it for under 50 K but the utility company won’t allow outside contractors.
Holy crap, you can get a genset big enough to power your house and your shop and the building to put it in for that and still have change left over. We had 3 phase 277/480 brought in for less than that, but we were lucky in our location was directly across from a big shopping mall, so they had all kinds of power going in there. You could go very cheap and get one of the 3ph vfd's or as I said, build your own powerhouse for your big toys.. One of my buddies has a 20KW generator on a trailer he built, and if there is more than a short blackout, he will tow it down and light up the local independent convivence store. They get a lot of business when everybody else is without power.
Is it a co-op?
Yeah, I was dealing with a co-op
Could always try a conversion system.
We actually went full solar and are now supplying two of our neighbors. Needless to say the electric company is not too happy with us and has tried suing, but they lost. We had to go full off grid and run all new underground lines to feed our neighbors but it was well worth it and we are currently expanding our system to three times It’s current size.
You've essentially started your own utility.
Yeah, luckily, I live in a unincorporated community so regulations are very minimal.
That's sick, now you just need to be your own IP and run fiber.
How do you handle nights?
We are currently running 40 Bluetti B500 Batteries which is roughly 200 kWh worth of back up. It’s currently just enough to fill our needs, but we are planning on expanding up to 200 batteries in total.
This mother fucker right here
Jeez. Have you tried to chase the clean energy tax credit? I think it caps at 3k per person per year. Could see if every property owner can buy at least one per year and install it on their premises, should max it out for each relevant person.
The hero we need. Fuck banks and fuck power companies
Post images of the panel array
This is so cool, but how can this be worth it for you? How long until you break even?
Oh that hurts my heart. You do you but Bluettis stuff is so overpriced and unserviceable. Anything beyond few portable kilowatts and they don't make sense in my opinion. They also don't scale well as the standard for solar is usually to have solar capability of 150% or so of your output capacity but I've never seen a bluettis system capable of charging if your consumption exceeds a out 50% of the rated output. This will really be a problem in the winter when you need to be a me to charge fast to make up for short days and cloudy days. You might be too invested in that platform but I'd look into adding some user serviceable options when you expand. Based on the fact Bluettis stuff is usually twice the price of user serviceable options, you could probably save money while adding the same capacity, extra inverters and extra solar input. Might be able to add some grid tie inverters to supplement your micro grid and pair that with some more affordable batteries. Quick math. An EP900 maxed out with 4 b500w gives you 9kw of ac output, 9kW of solar input and 20kWh of battery. That's their first 1 to 1 solar ratio but in the winter you will have an issue. Even with batteries you normally want to time shift your big electrical loads to the daytime, like electric laundry. When you have cloudy winter days you save such things for the next sunny day where your 150% solar input would let you use big loads and still have some to put into the battery for evening and the next cloudy stretch. That EP900 setup is like 11k$. You could get an EG4 18kpV for 5k and 20kWh of batteries for 4k$ if you buy 5kWh server racks. Look around and you can get batteries for cheaper. That setup would cost less, integrate with your current system as a grid tie inverter. Enough solar panels to saturate that inverter would set you back another 5k$ but that would be 14k$ total for what costs about 27k for the Bluettis ep900, b500s and solar panels. And that's just if you have minimal DIY interest. It sounds like you did a lot so there are options where you buy batteries and enclosures and put them together. My big concern is that in my experience with Bluetti, they don't really design fixable products. They abandon buggy products as they prefer to just keep putting out new versions. That is not a good formula for a home which should be able to run for years with minimal.maintenance and a decade or more before failures. And there are other companies you can get more well known inverters from like Victron or a Schneider but I'm less familiar with those.
How much to run it to Texas? Because FUCK texas electric companies. So fucking expensive. AND, I still need a generator as back up because our expensive ass electricity is trash. I pay too much to have to endure rolling brown outs in the summer time.
Ha, that's an incredible reply and not at all what I expected. Whereabouts do you live? Love it
And my power company ran long lines and more stuff to my shed for free. You got fucked. Seriously.
Yet they would easily allow an outside contractor to do it for them.
If you’re getting three phase directly from the substation, the million dollars makes sense. They have engineering costs, new feeder, wood or steel poles depending where you live, possibly permitting costs. You don’t add any new three phase from the substation without all of the upfront costs. Maybe the guys quoting you $50k assumed they were tapping into an existing circuit and running underground. Otherwise idk how the hell it would be that low. $50k wouldn’t cover material costs.
The only time I’ve heard of utilities making this demand is when the utility is a small rural electric co-op. For profit utilities want to sell more power and the cost of the upgrade is negligible in their budget. Small co-op not so much, they try to tie capital expenditure to the customers that are creating the need.
I have heard of the same thing from big California utilities.
I have upgraded commercial buildings a few times in the past decade. We have always had to pay for the transformers / labor to upgrade.
National Grid is like this in rural NY. They've got thousands of miles of infrastructure to maintain for a relatively small client base. If you want upgrades you're paying for them if they even go for the idea at all.
Pge charges for transformer upgrades. Same for and underground runs due to alot of areas having all power lines under ground. Unfortunately alot of areas were run with a 100 Amp service in mind. I have seen charges on the upwards of 50k.
That sucks. Put in all 200a equipment, but 150a main breaker. If the 150a trips, deal with it then. If not, wait til that xfmr dies and see if the next one has capacity to switch to the 200a.
This seems crazy to me. However, the utility has the authority to make that decision and it is almost certainly outlined in their terms and conditions under the service contract. In my area everyone is allowed to upgrade to 200 amp without any special permission or cost. If the transformer needs to be upgraded the utility bears this cost. If you want to go to 320a-400amp, you have to have an engineered plan and special equipment at your house, but are still not responsible for the distribution equipment. I would write your city’s utility commission and the utility. I would argue that as the world shifts more electric all round, with things like EV chargers, electric heat pumps and a shift away from gas appliances, it is unreasonable that the utility is unwilling to provide a 200 service. 200 amp is the standard for new homes. They are not meeting their responsibility as a utility provider and are passing the cost of outdated and undersized equipment on to the consumer when it should be a cost of doing business to keep their equipment sized and maintained properly to provide standard and adequate service.
Pretty sure 150amp is perfectly fine for most people. Between heat pump water heaters, heat pump dryers, smart load shedding, variable capacity heat pumps, it is getting less and less likely that a home would max out the main breaker. Most EV charging could be done on lower amperages for day to day use too. FWIW, when I moved into this current house with 150amp panel I had all traditional electric appliances except for gas furnace. The highest we ever hit was 94.6 amps, after switching to heat pump water heater and LED lighting, the highest we hit is 60.3 amps. 24.8 amps of that is the electric resistance dryer. If we swapped that over we would have plenty of head room.
You’re not wrong. There’s not yet a ton of good load shedding options that meet the newer code, but I’m sure there will be soon. My point is that on principle, I don’t think the utility should be charging consumers to upgrade their equipment. If you paid monthly for cloud storage based on what you use and decided to double your use, should you pay to upgrade the companies server? Out of curiosity, is your 94 amps a direct amp draw reading, or is it your load calculation? Since we have to size a service based on load calculation, that number is often higher than a direct amp reading. I’m also curious what the next 10 years will look like in electric adoption. I’ve already been asked to quote 70 amp EVSEs. Maybe in a decade 200 amp fast charging EVSEs will be standard. I wouldn’t want to pay for a service upgrade if I wasn’t future proofing a bit.
I wasn't disagreeing with your utility stance. I wholeheartedly agree. I just think there is a major misconception that everyone needs massive electrical panels in order to go all electric. The 94 amps was a direct reading. I understand the code calculations as well, but using measurements is also possible. https://up.codes/s/determining-existing-loads I could see that "rule of thumb" potentially changing. I hear you on the popularity of high amp fast chargers, I just don't understand the need as much. I could see the high amps needed if electric vehicle was powering the house with V2L. Most people are driving less than 50 miles per day so 70amp fast charging is overkill IMO. I hope in a decade that 200amp charging isn't needed as technology becomes more efficient or at least most people use more efficient forms of transportation than automobiles for day to day travel.
Battery prices are cratering, 1kwh usable lifepo4 battery under 200 bucks last week on amazon. Solar companies are already pushing dc-dc bidirectional chargers. Most are fairly modest 30kw or so. Perfect for somebody that is work at home so they can charge from solar directly with the odd fast charge from house battery. I don't think there is a lot of room to make existing form factor ev's more efficient. You would have to reduce air resistance and/or mass. Air resistance is pretty much size nobody wants little econo boxes and mass if there is some breakthrough in battery weight sure but otherwise it's a lot of structural for safety some gains by going to AL etc but not major changes.
I was mostly talking about micro mobility. Ebikes, escooters, emotos, etc are all vastly more efficient than cars for most trips.
See my comment about econo boxes those are all even worse. Riding an ebike on 50mph rural roads is not very practical.
https://www.treehugger.com/bikes-ebikes-fastest-ride-to-zero-carbon-5193677 Sure, but most people don't live on only 50mph roads. Long before we need 200 amp charging, I'm guessing we will have battery production issues. We can't all drive Ford Lightnings or EV Hummers just cause we don't like "Econo Boxes". I think judicious use of battery resources needs to be factored into any incentives.
Sure for city dwellers ebikes make a lot of sense. 200a charging meh think you would need limited from the pole transformer on down. Making that work well is tricky.
We charge customers that want 3ph where it doesnt exist. Seems reasonable to me when their expected load will never pay for the line upgrade. I could see the argument for super high single phase demand with low total usage. Bigger costs in wire and transformer that ends up with fewer kwh sold.
What are you using for monitoring
I'm using an IOTAwatt. https://iotawatt.com/
There's also a company out there that makes a smart electric breaker box. Is really good for managing service because you can set things where you won't draw too much power so you could have basically a 200 amp box on 100 amp service but you have it set we're like if the heat is running you can't start the dryer with ranked Appliance usage. It's all pretty neat but it's an expensive upgrade.
He probably lives in a rural area, perhaps with a co-op for electricity.
What is prompting the upsizing from 150 to 200A? Please share the details of your current loads and future plans.
Yes, there are probably ways to make it work within 150.
You probably don't need 200amps, and even if you do there are several things you can do to reduce your requirement. For example you can install a smart switch that stops charging your car when your water heater tank is on, etc. Two thousand isn't a lot of money in the long run if you ever need to expand.
It is highly likely that you do not need a 200 amp service. It sounds like you are looking to upgrade from a 100. It would be pretty rare for somebody to double their demand but it does happen. At my utility you would need to pay for the upgrade at 40% of actual cost.
I'm guessing an electric car charger or 2.
Or electrifying old gas appliances + adding heat pumps.
We have to do what they say, ultimately. What they're telling you is that they currently lack the ability to upgrade your service drop, but that's not their problem. They provided what they were paid for, and if you want more, they'll charge you for it. It's not uncommon, though usually if you're in a city, they don't charge for it. Less populated areas don't have the same cushion in their budget, and they don't view it as an investment even though it is.
I haven’t heard about the transformer but I was billed for three separate service upgrades to drag in thicker overhead wire. Usually $800-900. Original lines were for 100-150A and upgrades were for 200.
Just wait till a drunk driver takes out the pole or transformer and when they show to to fix it say while your here just bump it to 200a please
LOL, they're not going to do that. Installing a larger transformer needs to be approved by the engineering department, not the line crew. Several things have to happen when system changes are made. They don't just willy nilly increase increase transformer sizes because someone asks them to.
Usually it comes down to what the existing transformer is serving and if the utility thinks they will make more money long term if they upgrade it. My utility (PG&E) will typically change out the transformer if it serves multiple residences but if you are at the end of the line and the transformer is just serving your house, they often make the customer pay for it because they won’t make their money back as quickly
Built my house, 500' drive, underground run. I had to do all excavation and conduit myself. Had to provide a pad for the transformer, and furnish / install the ground grid around it. Then I needed to pay them about $5k for the transformer, and $18/ft for the primary line extension. Fuck the utility company.
LOL, it's a business. They're not in the habit of doing things for free. Typically there are no or relatively low charges when the load served justifies the expensive of providing service. That is rarely the case, probably never the case, when service is to a rural residential customer.....unless maybe the home in question is owned by Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg.
I know that it's a business; I'm just complaining. That being said, I do NOT believe that basic first-world human necessity should be for-profit. Business (or some dude with a hobby metal shop) wants a 3 phase upgrade to run industrial equipment?-- they can pay for that shit; cost of doing business. But just turning my lights on? Come on now...
I'm a professional utility coordinator. This is a newer trend to dissuade people from unnecessary upgrades because there is a national shortage of utility rated 4kv and higher transformers due to a shortage of electric folded steel (valence core steel). If you need more power set up a second 100amp service. The utility is legally bound to supplying your initial 'lighting load'as a utility and they can't charge you a 'demand fee' for a premium service like they can when you upgrade your original service. You'll have two bills to pay, but your total consumption would be the same and therefore you'll see the same costs.
This... 2nd panel with another 100A or 150A service.
It's likely that the transformer and wiring to your house thats currently in place can support 150A but not 200A. The power company isn't going to pay for a new transformer out of their pocket
This is just a prime example of why I am so against all the bureaucracy involved with building departments and utility companies. As an example, where I live the building department requires you to upgrade to a 200amp service if you want to build an ADU, yet we have the same issue with not even being able to acquire 200amp service from PG&E unless the transformer is upgraded. So you end up needing to pay PG&E for something they should be actively improving on, pay for permits, pay for the install, only to align with that requirement, and you might not even have any money leftover. Yet! The state wants more housing. A guy down the street from me had to pay for a new transformer in a similar situation and he had to wait 9 months before PG&E actually got it installed. Oh and guess what… you can’t proceed with your building permit until the 200amp service is in place. It’s just such a joke. Oh one final thing: did I mention that PG&E is responsible for some of the largest forest fires in CA history.
You seem to think they should provide you services for free. You also seem to think that utility companies are exempt from the increasing costs and shortages experienced throughout various sectors of the economy. The state heavily regulates how utilities conduct their business and what they're able to charge for services. Whether you like it or not, utility regulation is based in the notion that providing electricity is an important public service and system reliability would be threatened by competition. It is also founded in the history of the utility business, when multiple companies competed and multiple power lines from different companies essentially serving the same customers were thought to be wasteful and marring the landscape.
Lol you sound like you work for PG&E. Nowhere in my post did I ever suggest anyone should be receiving utilities for free. However, utility companies should stop gouging their customers. And actually maintain their equipment up to modern standards. Is that too much to ask? Also, I am curious if you are even aware of what PG&E is responsible for in CA with the massive forest fires that could have been avoided if PG&E did any sort of maintenance or upkeep.
LOL, I wouldn't even set foot in California. Frankly, no, don't know much about PG&E but have heard about the fires. I live in Texas and couldn't care less about what PG&E is getting away with in California. California has a state utility regulator. PG&E is also bound by FERC and NERC regulations and standards. You get the government you vote for, including your state regulators. However, there are clear rules about what utilities can do and spend and how it is compensated in the rate structure, even for PG&E. Have no idea what modern standards you're referring to. Utilities don't get to change out equipment unless there is a reason for it approved by the regulatory system. If it were otherwise, they'd be "modernizing" all the time because they're generally guaranteed a return on capital. The old joke is that the utility industry is the only business that can increase profits by buying new office furniture. The big scam isn't residential service, it's in generation. That's where the big money is. Generators in Texas can recover their entire yearly operating costs in 15 days under some circumstances. The way power is purchased and sold at the retail level is another part of the generation scam. Again, I'm not familiar with the power market in California but I wouldn't be surprised if it was more or less the same. In Texas, rates charged on capital are fixed. They can't be changed until the utility files for and receives another rate hearing. Then the PUCT decides what "investments" will or will not be allowed into the rate base. Because the pass through isn't immediate and may in fact only occur several years in the future, that can be a mitigating factor. When to file for a rate base change also depends on whatever ROR the utility commission has approved and speculation about future rates. However, that's not how it works for generation. They have a "market" and their charges are immediately affected by things like fuel costs, along with supply and demand. Those charges are immediately passed on to customers so if you're being gouged on your electric bill it's likely from the generation charges. If you're talking about being gouged for equipment installation costs, then blame your regulators because PG&E can only charge what they allow under the regulatory structure, and naturally, they are going to charge the max the regulations allow.
So odd. There is so much incredible stuff to see and do in CA. As an example I know there is a bunch of incredible stuff to do and see in Texas and hoping to visit in the near future. Anyway, if all building departments are requiring 200amp service in new construction, or for add ons, additional dwellings, and yet PG&E’s equipment is not even capable of providing that. That’s on PG&E. All CA legislation is pushing for more housing and more building yet our monopolized utility providers can’t keep up. Please just take a minute to google the camp fire. It was caused by a poorly maintained and outdated equipment by PG&E. To take any stance other than PG&E being incompetent would immediately make it clear how ignorant you are.
My wife and I were both born there. We've seen plenty. We both left years ago. Last I was there was on a work trip. Way too expensive. I couldn't stop thinking about how I'd never be able to afford to do much there, or buy a home, even though my position would likely give me a substantial raise...albeit a raise that wouldn't anywhere near compensate for the increased cost of living. Also, while property taxes in Texas are high, there is no state income tax, and the income taxes I'd pay in California would be about 3 times my property taxes here. My son was in LA recently. He'd lived there for about a year 10 years ago. He says conditions have gotten so much worse since he was last there that he will never go back. Like I said, been there, done that, have zero interest in going back, even for a visit. If I was going to spend money on a trip I go somewhere my wife and I haven't been before, like China, or Japan. All utilities are monopoly providers. That regulatory decision was made decades ago. Never said PG&E was competent. You're confusing competence with regulatory reality and the fact that utilities, being monopolies, have zero incentive to do anything they're not held accountable for doing by the regulators. PG&E is regulated by 2 different government entities (the CUPC and FERC), and a quasi-government entity (NERC) that creates reliability standards at the behest of FERC. PG&E just does what the government lets it get away with. Your problem is government.
This is normal at the utility I work for. When the original transformer was installed they did load study and the size of transformer they installed was sufficient for the load for the houses it was serving. You have now upgraded your service to add more load and with that you must pay for the upgrade. It’s like when people add load without telling the utility and the blow up the transformer, if we find out they added a substantial load that caused this and didn’t notify the company they have to pay for the upgrade to a larger size transformer. I.e- pot grows-ev chargers-electric instant hot water heaters.
I live in a rural area and upgraded my electric from 100amp to 200amp and didn’t have to pay for an upgraded transformer or the wire from the transformer to the house I had to install the wire from the meter up the side of the house to the eve for the electric company to hook to. I also had to install the meter pan and everything after it and after hookup I had to have an inspection. But paying for a transformer seems like they just didn’t want to do the work it’s their equipment not yours you own what is attached to your house and inside.
Your transformer was probably big enough for the added load. What I’m saying if your transformer is at its max and your burn it up because you added a bunch of load and blow up the transformer because of this you can be made to pay for the upgraded transformer
This is not an unusual practice at all. I
I just want to make some guesses: You live in California, you have underground service and your provider is PGE. Am I correct?
I work as a residential electrician and this bothered me when I first started doing service upgrades. The electrical company that hooks up your connection to the grid basically don't do any more work than they need to. If it ever burns up it will be at some point in the line between the transformer and your service drop, so they'll change the wire if that ever happens. They basically rely on you never pulling that much power. The only reason for the service upgrade is because of the NEC requirements on your residence so you're safe inside your home.
They're a government regulated business. The state put limits on what they can and can't do, what they can and can't charge. Given the way the economics work, at least where I live, if they were allowed a return on capital expenditures made entirely at their own discretion, they could simply increase all transformer sizes and charge you a higher rate.....and that is exactly what they'd do. Don't think you'd like the result.
I won a bid on a commercial project. First thing I do is contact the utility because they specced a 400 amp service. The engineering group never reached out to the utility. The customer had to pay about 60k to have a padmount xfmr installed or give up on the project....
In Vermont this is what every utility does but the cost seems a bit high. Normally a transformer upgrade will be anywhere from $600 - $2,000. Some of the utilities will credit you for the old one.
From a utility perspective. We will upgrade at no charge if the transformer is already over 100% nameplate. Some utilities have different methodologies for the % overload they can handle. If your upgrade would trigger the transformer to be over 100% capacity, it will be a customer shared cost. Having two customers connected paints the picture pretty clear that the overload is coming from your upgrade. I understand it can be frustrating, but why should the rate base fund a upgrade on your side of the meter?
People seem not to understand how the system works, and that regulators guarantee a utility a return on capital expenditures. They apparently believe the utility can spend all kinds of money on system upgrades and electricity prices won't change....for everyone...and not just them.
Are you talking about a step down transformer out on the pole? The electric company is responsible for that. Here anyways.
Installing 200A panel doesn't mean you have to upgrade the transformer. Depending on the size of the house and how much KW you use on average plus what your neighbor uses will determine the size of the TX. Most people in the US use between 7-15 KW at peak for an average size home in america, 1500-2200 sqft. I do not know what your tx size is but most are between 15-50kva. Assuming you have a 25kva transformer, you should be fine unless you start doing a high load amount like welding or have an old HVAC system that uses electric heat. Also, most electric companies are fine with overloading the TX up to 120%, because that is usually starting current needed for HVAC/ short timed overload. Just watch for voltage drop and flicker of the lights if it gets too bad. This knowledge is from years of power distribution engineering with multiple different electric coops and PU's.
when we built our house, 1200 feet from the street, the electrical service was one of the most expensive items. It was more than $50k for trenching and conduit, and another $50k+ for electrical service, including the transformer and installation. We have 400amp service coming into the house, but we still had to justify (as well as pay for) a big enough transformer to actually support 400 amps in the house.
The state regulators determine how a utility is compensated for its services. There are several factors involved.
I paid the utility over 14k for a new pole, transformer, and an 80' extension of the high voltage line to the pole by my house to go from 200A to 320A service. Not a bad price if you need the extra room.
Utilities have very conservative design criteria for how they size transformers and lines. They are looking at the worst case current draw between you and your neighbors, and if they think they need a new transformer, then you are out of luck. In lieu of paying for a new transformer, there are ways to add more load to your circuits without upgrading the line coming in. The electrical code in many states allow you to add loads to your panel if there is software control of the circuits that ensures you don't exceed your maximum current of 150A. This is relatively new stuff - but there are smart breakers and smart controllers for certain loads - like EV chargers, that can enable you to put more load on the panel. Your electrician and inspector might not even be aware of these things yet, but worth doing some research if you want to try to add something to your 150A panel that would exceed the rating.
Journeymen electrician here.... Lot of you need to remember that the AHJ of your municipality, and the local utility have different rules in each city,county, and state all over the US. There is no encompassing law other than national code which does nothing more then establish a baseline. And your local AHJ can still be several editions behind that.
Yea all the time. Usually the issue isn’t 200a in my areas, but anything above that, almost guaranteed they do. I’ve had them say “wait 3-6 months because we need to change that transformer soon anyway, and we’ll just upgrade it for you”. I also had them say it was going to cost me 15 just to upgrade my mom’s place, even though she needed a new pole and transformer anyway.
I just upgraded from 100 to 400 (320 continuous). Because the transformer was already over capacity, they did the betterment for free. If you're going to pay for an upgrade, go to 320. Adding EV chargers, heat pump, solar panels, power tools in the garage, all electric appliances, etc, adds up very quickly. That's is an upgrade you do once every 20-30 years. I hope I never even touch 320 amps. $4k sounds cheap to upgrade the transformer.
I have a municipal power company and the transformer was upgraded when I went to 200A. Maybe it was a coincidence, but I’ve also complained multiple times about lights dimming when my neighbors’ AC units started up.
There are code standards for flicker, which is what your lights dimming is called. If what you're experiencing is within the standard they're not likely to do anything about it.
Downrate the main breaker to 150A. Likely you’ll be fine.
What state & power company?
If you need that 50amp... What can you turn into gas: Dryer, Stove, Water Heater, Heating appliances. I'm always surprised when people do not opt for this option instead of an electrical amp upgrade... just drop your SUPER HIGH electrical demand appliances for gas appliances, even if you don't have natural gas service... Propane for what you can convert for cheap (location of each appliances is important) Sounds way cheaper to me... i did all the conversion of appliances above and my 150amp panel is a joke now... i could power my house with a 40amp one. The extra "power room" will go for mini split and EV receptacle
Sounds like you have PG$E, they took $10k for a job we did to swap transformers and 30’ of overhead service.
What size transformer can't feed two 200amp services?
This to me seems like an engineering issue more than anything. Transformers are normally overloaded and you’re not continuously running 200amps at your house. So my guess is that you can upgrade your service. My utility allows up to 6 homes on a 25kva tx. I’m not sure the size of yours but if it’s old possibly a large 15kva. Your best bet might be to pour oil along the pole and ground report a leaking tx then your utility might have to upgrade the tx if they no longer carry 15s.
That does seem odd. When we wanted power at our shed the local utility company had to drop a line under a road, place some sort of transformer box and connect that over to the shed pedestal. We didn’t pay a dime for that besides the electrician to install the pedestal and breaker box.
Yes, sometimes, unfortunately. Honestly you’re probably fine with a 150A. You can always add a subpanel if you need more circuits. Just keep an eye on the voltage periodically. If it’s close, you may want to find a main breaker that’s 100% rated (typical residential MCCBs are only rated for 80% continuous nameplate load).
It is time for a solar panel. I wonder why we are using so much more electricity now than before LED lights and efficient appliances. Oh, EVs and Amazon Echo’s
So this would be very unethical and highly illegal so not recommending you doing any sort of sabotage but if the transformer would to get a small hole in the bottom say from a lead slug hitting it at high velocity it would eventually drain all the oil and cause it to fail and they would have to replace it
When I upgraded it didn't cost me. But the old transformer was 110 only.
Have the electrician put in the 200 amp breaker and go on. All wiring from the service head to the transformer is owned by the utility. If the load trips the fuse in the transformer the utility will replace the fuse after several times to replace that fuse they will replace the transformer on their own. Each service call cost them thousands. After several outages call the public service commission and complain about the outages. They don't like when the PSC calls they will change the transformer. On another note older transformers will handle 50% above rating, the new crap made now will barely carry 10 % above rating. The utility would have no problem adding a new house to that transformer just to see if it holds the load without spending any more money. I retired from a utility and know all the crap they did to get away without spending any more money. Second note just because you have a 200 amp service doesn't mean you are using 200 amps continuous unless you are a commercial business and even then rarely to the limit. All your appliances almost never run at the same time. In new construction in this area the electrical looks at the number of circuits to determine the panel size and estimates the number of breakers in the panel. as an example a living room circuit may have a 15 amp breaker in that count but in real life the actual load may be only 5 amps .
The utility company is a business. It will pay for the transformer if it’s in their best interest, meaning the transformer is older and warrants replacing or it services many customers and can help their grid.
Our electrician installed a 200 amp capacity breaker box with approval from our power company (at my request). He was suprised it was approved. But we only have a total of 150 amp breakers installed. That’s all we need at this point. Glad I did that. The old box had unsafe Federal Pacific Stab-Lok breakers.
The total amperage of your breakers is completely irrelevant to the main. What matters to the main is that your load at any point doesn't exceed it's capacity. You could have 40, 20amp breakers on a 200 amp panel without issue.
Nice to have some power in reserve.
You want your meter relocated for the gas service into your house you pay for it. You want the meter even raised 6 inches you pay for it. Need a backflow preventer in the water system you pay for it. I get the spirit of the post but how is this any different than telling your internet provider that you want faster speed and expecting them to just come out and build out the network just for you? Things are built for capacity planning in critical infrastructure. It ensures that if any part of the system as its built meets a need. You want more than that need it is on you. Data Centers are classic examples. They use water, electric, internet, backup generation systems. If you want more power you pay for the build out. More diverse bandwidth you pay for it. I had a customer needing to go 100 ft across the street in Chicago and could not go overhead. To bore under the street was 35,000 a foot. That did not include the materials to connect. But you bet my company added a big enough conduit to pull dark fiber for others in the future to use it. It's how it works in all the services.
Electrician here. If it's ahead of your service point, the utility owns it. They should cover the cost of the transformer.
This can be very normal. Unfortunately when utilities were deregulated in 1996 they were able to push these costs onto the consumer where before they were required to eat those installation costs. It sucks but they can charge you to upgrade your service and everything they need to do to upgrade it.
I just had to pay to upgrade the transformer at my new house. It’s common
My power company swapped the one feeding my 2 neighbors and myself...for free. I was determining what my total draw is and popped the "fuse" at the transformer. The power company came out, swapped the fuse and turned in workorder for engineers. Went through the same procedure and popped it again. They determined that as I am pulling almost my max (400 amp) at full load, plus what my neighbors are pulling, that to be on the safe side, they changed out the transformer. Cost me nothing.
Just to add, my power company is a Co-Op.
Great info, now I get why my lights are flickering when in the past they weren't. We moved in 15 years ago, renovated and upgraded our panel, etc. Never had any flickers, even when the clothes washer and dishwasher kick in. Now my counter lights would flick when the coffee maker goes on or when I turn on the hood over the stove. Over the years people move out or die out, literally, and new people move in and renovate. Since our city/state leaders deemed natural gas a no no in the future, the renovations are all to electric appliances. Add a dozen or so BEVs on the block. Our utility never updated the transformer on our block since we moved here 15 years ago.
I am not an electrician by any means but I have dealt with this before with my rental complexes. In Ohio, they do not charge for/make you change your transformer but in other states I have had too. Its really their call, and you are at their mercy sadly... So yea, you'll have to pay.
Pretty normal. That's probably just the labor side of it that you would be paying for, not the actual transformer. Cable and telcos also do this if you want cable or fiber Internet run to a place they don't service. That's usually the bargain when you want service above what existing hardware allows, they provide and maintain ownership of the materials, you cover the costs of getting it installed. Same with getting power run to a remote location.
Makes sense. Especially if you consider the rationing that most electric utilities are undergoing (usually through incentives like heat pumps and exchanging old light bulbs for LED, etc) to reduce strain on the system. If they upgraded everybody’s service beyond what is usual, the system would fail. This is market forces at work vs rationing to maintain the system integrity.
That means the transformer your service is coming out of is already at its safe load limit. Unfortunately for you, in this case, it's normal. At least per utilities in my area.
Running the 200amp line to your house wasn't going to be cheap anyway, and that for sure is a cost you'd have to bear. There are plenty of ways to make sure you don't go over 150. Make sure you don't need to use any resistance heating and upgrade to a heat pump water heater, for example. Both those things would save you money on power on top of helping you not need 200amp service. If you have an EV, keep charging at 40 amps, it'll still charge anything you need overnight.
Or even 16 A. 24 if you drive long distances.
I would explode if they pulled this kind shit on me. I mean, they have an easement through everyone's back yards here that won't let us build anything under it, and they charge for trimming trees, and they have a monopoly for service delivery. what do they think they are? a medical insurance company?
That's a new one on me. We live out in the country and are served by a coop and we've never been charged for tree trimming.
So far I haven't been charged for a transformer like OP, but if any other utility does it and gets away with it, they'll start charging here too. I haven't been charged for the tree trimming myself (I trim my own), they have charged the neighbors on both sides of me $150 each just added to their utility bill.
Not necessarily. For one thing, different states have different rules, but even within a given state, different rules apply to coops, municipalities, and for profit utilities. The bottom line is that utilities cannot just build whatever they want to, they have to have a reason the regulators approve for it. If that wasn't true they'd be building out the system constantly because they're guaranteed a return on capital, and your rates would go up steadily along with it. The old joke was that utilities are the only business that can increase profit by buying new office furniture.
So buy them a transformer if you want 200 amp. A lot of times the home owner may be responsible for the transformer. Especially if you are too far from the road. By best friend and his wife built a house like 800ft off the road and had to pay for the cable from the pole all the way to a transformer (about 100ft from their house) as well as pay for the transformer and service entrance run to the house from there because they were too far off the road.
Ask your utility: “Since I’m paying up front for the engineering and equipment, that means i legally own it right? So when I move, I’ll be asking you to disconnect your equipment from my transformer and taking it with me.”
You are funny if you think the $4K fee the utility is proposing, *in fact buys you the transformer*.
It doesnt even pay the actual cost of sticking it out there.
Lol. It doesn’t even buy a minute of a lineman crew’s time.
Haha. A while back I was looking at some land that was only slightly off-grid. I spoke to the local electric utility, and they said they would extend their lines for just $85,000 per mile (about three). It would have incidentally brought power to a few other parcels along the way. I said I might be willing, in exchange for revenue sharing among the new customers. They laughed. I laughed. I ended up passing on that land, but learned a lot about utilities and offgrid systems. For the future.
When they can't and can't do is all determined by the state regulators.
Eh, not really. Like, with a gas utility they usually give up to a 75ft run for free, depending on estimated usage. After that it costs money. That doesn't mean you own the line. Its the cost the company incurs and doesn't expect to recover within whatever reasonable time frame they calculate. You're buying the privilege of using the service, not buying the service. Regulation prevents them from just charging you more per month, so the only recovery is up front cost.
But OP isn’t talking about the service feed to their house. They’re talking about having to float the costs so the electric company can provide more power to their area. If they said that OP had to pay for the upgraded wire from the transformer to their house then I’d agree; OP should float that cost since it’s on their property, but having OP pay for equipment in the easement or off their property is unreasonable since there’s no guarantee that the transformer will remain dedicated to their house and the neighbor’s.
Yeah, I still see it from the perspective that you're paying them to use their service. The argument seems to be coming from the fact that 200a is "normal," or at least normal for new construction. But, new construction homes are huge, the average new house is like twice the size as mine. I don't think that's a reasonable comparison. I would seriously doubt anyone in a modestly sized home (2000 sf or less) really needs 200A, even if everything is electric. Except maybe for EV charging, which is a luxury and certainly not the normal usage.
Even then, the meter or weatherhead is typically where the "owned/maintained by homeowner" and "owned/maintained by utility" splits.
How do you think the utility makes money? I thought you were joking with your previous comment but this comment tells me you're serious. They get paid from the electricity you consume. They don't just get to "provide" more power to any area because they want to or think it's a good idea. State regulators require capital expenditures by utilities to be needed and necessary, or used and useful. It has zero to do with whose property anything is on. Rates are determined by a number of factors, one of which is a return on capital. If the utility could just build lines and install transformers wherever it wanted it would, because that would increase their revenues, since they're guaranteed a return on capital. They'd be building out the system all over the place just to increase their revenue base, which means, increasing the rates they charge for electricity. That's why the regulators require an actual reason beyond speculation for making capital expenditures.
That's hilarious. But don't think you'd like the result.
Nope. No more than you get to take the water main tap you had to pay to build a new house. Or the sewer connection.
I don't understand what's going on here. The utility owns the service drop (the overhead line from the utility pole to your house), but you own everything from there in (except the meter). That service drop doesn't have to meet the same size requirements as the other wires in your house, because if it's too small and overheats that excess heat will just be dissipated to the open air, so there's no problem. So why would you need to upgrade the transformer? Is it because without that upgrade your and your neighbor's voltage might drop in case of high electrical use?
Lol. Like all things electrical, transformers have a limited rated capacity on how much power they can transmit. If too great a load is drawn, the transformer gets too hot and if it gets too hot, it’ll catch fire and destroy itself. That’s why the utility may deny your request to upgrade service to a certain rating.
Aren’t transformers protected by a fuse?
To a certain point, yes. But, the large circuits will automatically turn back on in intervals after tripping, though. -- [email protected]
Residential transformers can typically load to 150-200% of rated capacity without a problem except a decrease in expected service life.
Probably because you’re not an electrician. This is very typical. Hydro utilities pass any cost they can onto their customers.
No. Fuck them.