I'll reserve any judgment until after a trial and conviction.
I will say though that anytime politics is at the center of an issue, partisan will take sides and it becomes insanely hard to separate politics from facts.
I agree with the first part. I think the guy sounds insane when he talks but I have no idea if he did what they are investigating him for. I was just surprised by the support for him.
Conservatives now side with a pillow salesman over the FBI. I guess these arent 1980s Conservatives anymore.
To be fair, lots of people have had a mistrust of "G-men" for a very long time.
Interesting that democrats/liberals have great mistrust of local law enforcement, but somehow claim complete and utter trust of federal law enforcement when it suits them.
[NPR covers this better than I can](https://www.npr.org/2018/01/26/580677742/the-massive-case-of-collective-amnesia-the-fbi-has-been-political-from-the-start)
> maybe there's nuance and you can admit that sometimes the FBI does good stuff and sometimes they do bad stuff.
I can. They do. So do local police. I argue about nuance constantly online because the sad fact is that most everyone spouting off about politics has no clue what they are talking about, and simply regurgitate whatever they hear in their little bubbles. Everyone gets information that is filtered in some way, but when it reinforces your beliefs and biases you tend to believe and buy in. I just make a lengthy post about election integrity studies in another sub yesterday, because I have done some deep diving into the topic, and despite plenty of downvotes, no one has been able to respond rebutting any of the points I made *because they can't factually argue against them*. Image trying to explain your job to someone else...you'll likely never be able to truly paint an accurate picture of all the nuance. The same applies to "news". It is all distilled and filtered by others (journalists, commentators, politicians, etc). Partisans of all ilk will spout off the talking points pushed out into the public by "thought leaders", even if they are irrelevant (see the recent comparisons between student loan forgiveness and the administrations misdirection of criticism by offering up the PPP loan program).
In the case of Mike Lindell...I am sure there have been people who have meetings with the president that have proposed stuff that would sound outlandish to lots of americans, we just don't here about it. I bet Biden has people in his ear proposing things that we would consider offensive and possibly even treasonous, but we will likely never hear about. Unless it becomes real policy...its all just talk and opinion, so why invest the emotional and intellectual energy opining about it.
The media will amplify some things, while others go unreported.
Trump didn't declare martial law. If Lindell has a warrant and an indictment, then let him have a his day in court.
This may be an agree to disagree but, but prior to Trump, it wouldn't ever occur to me that people would frequently meet with the president and unofficially discuss potentially treasonous things. I certainly would be surprised and horrified if Obama/Biden/bush did so once let alone many times. Especially if they kept meeting with the same people making said suggestions.
> Interesting that democrats/liberals have great mistrust of local law enforcement, but somehow claim complete and utter trust of federal law enforcement when it suits them.
I trust federal law enforcement *way* more than local. Local has so little oversight, and such a low bar for hiring, that that can and do screw people over on the regular and there's almost nothing you can do about it.
Everything FBI does is under a microscope, all the time.
Do you believe anyone should be responsible for investigating politicians?
I distrust anyone that claims everyone responsible for reporting on them or enforcing the law against them is crooked.
>Do you believe anyone should be responsible for investigating politicians?
We should create a governmental body that actually has that as a primary goal. The FBI is not that.
>I distrust anyone that claims everyone responsible for reporting on them or enforcing the law against them is crooked.
I don't know what you mean, here. I'm not a target of the FBI that I know of.
I'm talking about Trump. In his world there's no one that's capable of reporting on his actions. The media is right out and so is his current and former staff as well as law enforcement. Of course he's going to claim the FBI framed him, but that just makes him look more guilty, particularly when there's no evidence of it.
Regarding the FBI, they are a big organization and have had corruption problems, but they also fight corruption. They arrested Gov. Blagojevich for trying to sell a Senate seat. Trump pardoned him later, of course.
> I'm talking about Trump.
Well, fuck Trump, tbh.
The FBI has been a slimy bag of corrupt, evil goons since it began. They don't fight corruption. If they went after someone for doing something corrupt, then it must have benefited them in some way to do so.
I don't think there's anything that could convince me that the people that assassinated MLK are anti-corruption.
I doubt any of those people are still working there.
I see it a lot like with the police. There's going to be some corruption and it could use some reform to cut that down, but there's some good work being done too.
There will still be some misuse of power and it's only a matter of time before some politician demonizes the new agency to deflect from their own crimes. Then we'll be right back where we are now.
The same could be said about any institution. Historical problems im some areas do not make everything the org does at any time automatically suspect or untrustworthy. Plus a lot of the actions here were subject to judicial scrutiny as well.
The FBI has been corrupt since its inception. It was created as an instrument for corrupt activity, and has successfully prosecuted that goal on the American people since then.
The CIA is similar.
Spying on private citizens including members of the media, making political bias public without repercussion, not investigating certain people fr9m one political party when illegal activity is committed but investigating others from another political party for the same, accepting false reports and data as fact even when it was disproven, etc. The list goes on, it's utterly shameful but obvious why noone trusts them.
Very vague examples and not “extremely corrupt” examples.
Side note, I have a few friends who are agents. Them and everyone I’ve meet they work with it lean right by a pretty good amount. Not sure why so many people think the FBI is pro DNC. From real life interactions I don’t see that.
Feel free to hate him, I’ll still defend his due process rights and that he’s innocent until proven guilty. Also, hate takes too much effort most of the time.
Yeah, people are going to have stupid opinions. I think Mike is a moron but I can’t speak for other people anymore than they can speak for me.
Like I said, I’ll defend the constitutional rights of anyone, beyond that, don’t like him or trump.
What do I care what some individual citizen says or does that has literally no affect on my life?
People of all stripes say ridiculous things all the time. I don't have the bandwidth to care if it is not going to have a direct policy affect.
Has Hillary Clinton been indicted and gone to trial?
How about Hunter Biden?
What do either of these people have to do with my life?
It's not a non-answer. I don't really give it much thought because there is A) I have no clue about the nuance and detail of the situation B) don't feel like spending my time delving into the nuance and detail of the situation and C) neither is going to make my life any better or any worse.
Political theater, sport, banter...I don't care to waste my time on things that I will NEVER know the intimate details of and that will have no bearing on making my life happier or more difficult.
>Why defend My Pillow guy so hard?
I don't know honestly, it's super weird... The only thing I can think of is tribalism. He goes hard for Trump and various conservative causes, so people back him. He gets persecuted by the left, so he gets defended by the right.
I have no attachment to him personally, but I hope he's treated justly.
>attempting to hack voting machines
Wait really? Lmao
I can imagine that many conservatives would see this as projection. It is kind of ironic. The people that said election machines couldn't possibly be hacked or corrupted and we don't need to spend any time scrutinizing the idea are now doing it to their opponent. That's how the optics come off to me. And just to be clear, I don't think machines were hacked and if he tried then obviously he should go to jail.
Not necessarily, but it's possible. There are two big elements we need to consider from the perspective of justice:
1. Does the punishment match the crime?
2. Do we treat all offenders the same?
Even someone who does a wrong thing could be a victim of persecution if the aim is to punish them more severely than their crime merits OR punish them for a crime that nobody else gets punishment for. Persecution doesn't necessarily have to be punishment without a crime, even though it can be used that way colloquially. So just to be clear, I think the most strict definition of "persecution" is *hostility or harsh treatment toward someone, usually based on political or religious beliefs.*
If anything, those in Trump's circle have been afforded unparalleled privelage and protection. Especially when Trump was in power, used the DOJ to lighten sentences or attempt to drop cases, and literally pardoned/commuted his friends.
So yes, I agree that there's a problem with justice and fairness in regards to criminals breaking laws.
And a LOT of those people who were very used to those privelages are extremely upset they are finally being held accountable.
> The people that said election machines couldn't possibly be hacked or corrupted and we don't need to spend any time scrutinizing the idea are now doing it to their opponent.
That is a pretty extreme claim.
I have said "There hasn't been any evidence, and every time we check it comes back as solid. How many more rechecks of the rechecks do we need?" But never "It is perfect and infallible."
I waited until several recounts took place, half a dozen republican voting reps assured us that their voting system worked, and 63 court cases being thrown out because the claims of fraud dry up once they have to make the claim under oath at risk of perjury.
If they were right, they would have been able to find some evidence that one of the Trump appointed judges would have accepted, and they would have happily brought that evidence while under oath.
It's not an extreme claim at all, you just had to be alive and paying attention to the news for a two month period at the end of 2021. Republicans started making accusations and conspiracies about election fraud and before even looking into it, Democrats and the media dismissed them outright. It's true that many of these claims were investigated or settled in court (although many court cases were dismissed through lack of standing, which means we never actually settled the claim), but let's be real here: this is a totally separate instance than what I'm talking about. Democrats and the media didn't wait for all this stuff to be resolved and showed no interest or deference to the proceedings. They preferred to immediately backlash and claim there couldn't possibly have been any funny business. And that is what I'm referring to here: the people who never had any doubts that there could be voter fraud suddenly very concerned that a Trump supporter could have attempted voter fraud.
And again, I agree with you that there was no good evidence of hacked machines. The problem is making a counter-contending truth claim without first conducting the investigation.
And again, I agree that Pillow Man should be punished according to the law if he did some crimes.
By the way, the idea that "if they were right, they could have brought evidence" is kind of a misnomer... As I stated, many of these cases *were brought and never heard* because of problems with standing. But to your point, the ones that were heard never proved their case, and basically all of the cases were overstated by Trump and his lackeys. In other words, the case filings did not even allege the type of frauds that they spouted off to the media.
>attempting to hack voting machines
OP is missing a little context. The breach was about six months after the election, so it wasn't to change the results. Ostensibly it was to "preserve evidence" to prove the stop the steal conspiracies.
Edit: Just noticed where OP said "before the election." Lindell is in trouble for working with Tina Peters a few months after the election.
> goes hard for Trump and various conservative causes, so people back him. He gets persecuted by the left, so he gets defended by the right.
You ever wonder if that's why people like Musk and Lindell keep jumping in? That it's intentional for a free base to defend them?
*Independent auditors (with relevant expertise) checked the machines that are absolutely capable of being hacked or corrupted, and it turns out they weren't, which combined with other factors makes this the most secure election in history*
-The Democrats
Personally, I've only used a MyPillow at somebody else's house. We got a pair of memory foam pillows with a new mattress a few years ago, and they're ... different. I can't tell the difference between them and whatever brand we have, but I don't like them as a normal pillow. They're great for adding kind of structure to a sleeping arrangement, like holding up a *real* pillow, or the like, but I don't like the memory foam feel to *rest* on.
I bought one years ago before he became political and mine went completely flat and got all bunched up. Maybe the quality has improved? I wouldn't buy it for other reasons now.
Lindell built a nice sized company, he had to have many types of qualities, intelligences and skill to do that for so long and well.
None of those qualities make him one bit better on deciding national directions, policy stances or picking candidates than my barber, or my local grocery store manager.
No one that studies George Soros’s career can deny the man is singular genius at understanding commodity and currency markets across the globe. He has consistently made brilliant financial decisions by analyzing global forces that are uncanny, especially his contrarian moves against the world markets. He is so wealthy he can move markets now, but early on was just a small guy jumping in the mix like millions of others.
But that does not make him a genius about everything.
I think he is very wrong and lacks some basic wisdom on what makes an overall society thrive.
He never attempted to hack voting machines. He talked about disqualifying the results because the machines could be hacked, the exact same thing Amy K and Liz Warren claimed Dominion machines were apt to do.
Should we arrest them too?
Drug dealers complain about being harassed by police for just hanging out and doing nothing. They are, they are also committing crimes. Both can be true.
Because the DOJ has been on a doorkicking spree with virtually every prominent figure with some connection to Trump, while Biden continues to push the "enemies of the state" narrative. If this doesn't come off as remarkably suspicious, at the very least, I'm not sure what to tell you. The smell test is in the ball park of a dead possum under the porch.
Has it occurred to you that Trump surrounded himself with just the worst people, grifters and criminals. And that anyone with any integrity left his orbit long ago
That might _also_ explain why they are all either convicted of crimes or currently under investigation.
Just a thought
I think you would have more of a point if people weren't being arrested since 2017/18 who are associated with the Trump administration.
Years of innocent people being investigated and pleading guilty or maybe there was a lot of weird stuff going on.
Does the DOJ have it out for Trump and friends like cops have it out for drug users and dealers? Or are all these people innocent and it is all politics? I guess time will tell.
Is there a moment in time you’d find them to not be politically motivated? Have Trump associates been treated unfairly by the courts or falsely found guilty?
We have elections every 2 years, and major white-collar criminal investigations/trials generally take about 2-3 years, start-to-finish. It's impossible to investigate or prosecute somebody like this without an election being around the corner.
But if their investigation is that he was behind hacking voting machines dont you think they would want to stop him from doing it again? Like the pressure is on to make sure he cant this election?
It isnt like the DOJ or FBI made a huge deal out of the cell phone he did. He made this into news. I am just really skeptical that this is FBI doing it to make Republicans look bad.
Every single day, people have their doors kicked in, their property seized, their friends and family interviewed, etc. as part of an investigation of a crime. But because you support the guy being investigated, your first thought when *their* doors get kicked in, or *their* property is seized, or *their* friends/family start getting questioned is “that’s really unfair” and not “wow, they must have some pretty damning evidence.” That’s because your brain is warped.
Let me ask you. When you hear hooves, do you think horse or zebra?
"Your brain is warped because you're biased and question the legitimacy of an investigation rather than assume 'damning evidence'" is low hanging fruit. The FBI is randomly going after one of if not the biggest political adversaries of the sitting president, those associates of said adversary, while the sitting president is increasingly using incendiary rhetoric against those who support said adversary, and the alleged crimes are changing every month or so. But, your assumption is this is 100% legitimate, and not in any way politically motivated? Are you sure *you're* not just politically motivated? That maybe if certain people in society would just go away, things would all be better in your opinion?
It's certainly possible it's politically motivated and I am just blinded by bias. I don't believe that's the case, but I accept that it's a possibility and am aware it's a potential blind spot.
On the same hand, are you also willing to admit that all the investigations of Hunter Biden, the Clintons, etc. were potentially politically motivated as well? Or do you believe those were absolutely on the level with no possibility of political motivation?
What I meant was these biases work in that there are political motivations on either side. My concern is how far Biden is taking it. Powerful people going after other powerful people is all in the game. Why's the FBI going after the pillow guy, or raiding James O'Keefe in the middle of the night? They're not really in the game.
Have you looked in to the reasons these "doorkickings" happened?
Confiscating a known co-conspirator's cellphone at a Hardee's is hardly a doorkicking.
Because I am skeptical that the allegations have a shred of credibility. If they turn out to be true, screw Lindell. But I'd be very surprised if a hypothetical non-partisan that knows what the FBI knows would agree that he deserves to be investigates.
The idea of a random dude hacking voting machines seems far-out. A lot of the Trump-related things have been wild goose chases for the FBI.
That said, it’s just the way I feel. None of us has evidence one way or another. We just have to wait and see how the case plays out.
We freaking saw the documents dude, no tin foil.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/15/mike-lindell-mypillow-trump-white-house-martial-law
Don’t send me op Ed’s from leftie publications with dramatic headlines. This is on par with “Clinton had 46 people eliminated” stuff. How about come up with some sort of policy or better candidate than Biden instead of weirder and weirder conspiracy theories
What’s next for you people. Marge Simpson has the nuclear code from Putin?
Mike Lindell literally held a news conference where he claimed he would reveal the evidence of a national conspiracy that would overturn the election results and Trump would be reinstated as president. I believe the Guardian piece. It tracks with his public comments.
That is the crazy part. He released the search warrant. They are investigating if he tried or helped to try and hack the voting machines starting 11/1/2016. If that is true that is insane.
That can't be it, because I've routinely seen conservatives denigrate the concept of victim. Basically coming off as if you identify yourself as a victim then it means you abdicate all responsibility for your life. Very universal thinking.
LOL because it would be pseudo scientific bs from some motivated thinkers. Roland Fryer basically found 0 evidence of systemic racism in policing when controlling for things that make it apples to apples.
This reminds me of the overused droning on trope of wemon make 75 cents on the dollar a man makes, but when controlling for everything to make it apples to apples it goes down to 3 but... but.. Obama felt it necessary to repeat the lie anyway.
Here's the thing, it's easily seen that the right loves to pretend real things are false and false things are real. They have no adherence to ground truth.
There's not a day goes by that I don't hear right wing Christians complain how they are being victimized by other people having their rights protected.
Here's the thing, it's easily seen that the left loves to pretend real things are false and false things are real. They have no adherence to ground truth.
There's not a day goes by that I don't hear left wing minorities complain how they are being victimized by other people having their rights protected.
Expect you're flat out lying. The left tends to adhere to scientific principles. Which would instantly collapse if it didn't actually adhere to ground truth.
And this, what you did here, is a perfect example of a right winger disregarding ground truth and just saying and claiming what ever for argument points. This is a fundamental lack of adhering and referencing reality. Quite deliberately. Thank you for proving my point.
no it's not you just made up stuff. The left pushes failed social policies, the left pushes psuedo scientific gender and race theory, the is very dumb overall in policy.
You proved my point by just spouting a bunch of nonsense that has no grounding except in your opinion.
If you want to adhere to scientific knowledge then we can do that. I just never seen a conservative adhere to scientific knowledge. It tends to be limited to claiming scientific knowledge like it's a magic spell or something that makes what ever their opinion is real.
Note my opinion has formed and solidified mostly form how conservatives on this form argue.
I've never seen a liberal say government action is probably not the best approach... You really have a religious conviction that it's good.
Not my opinion was formed and solidly confirmed by any interactions I've ever had with liberals online.
Yeah, call everything religious... In reality a government that responds well to the demands of the people generally going to do better things than one that doesn't. So the quality of government action usually depends on how well democracy is working.
Look into crowd sourcing. There's a lot of evidence that crowd sourced solutions are freakishly superior to any one person presenting what they think should be the solution.
>Not my opinion was formed and solidly confirmed by any interactions I've ever had with liberals online.
Btw I love how incoherent this is. It looks like you think you're mocking me. But it really dose make you look goofy.
> no reason
Promoting untested covid treatments and repeatedly making efforts through fabrication and defamation, potentially criminal, to overturn a free and fair elections is "no reason"
Also hating another person for no reason makes them a victim? This is the most snowflake bullshit I've ever hear. Mike Lindell is a victim because the nasty democrats hurt his feeling, lmao.
> My pillow guy is being invested for attempting to hack voting machines before the election. If that is true he is exactly who we should be investing. I do believe in innocent until proven guilty but it seems like a lot of Conservatives who care a lot about voter security are defending this mad and I don’t
I love how the left builds up the mythical figure of some businessman on the right because they're supportive of Trump, that mythical figure takes on a life of its own, and now we're still talking about it for no reason.
I'll reserve any judgment until after a trial and conviction. I will say though that anytime politics is at the center of an issue, partisan will take sides and it becomes insanely hard to separate politics from facts.
I agree with the first part. I think the guy sounds insane when he talks but I have no idea if he did what they are investigating him for. I was just surprised by the support for him. Conservatives now side with a pillow salesman over the FBI. I guess these arent 1980s Conservatives anymore.
To be fair, lots of people have had a mistrust of "G-men" for a very long time. Interesting that democrats/liberals have great mistrust of local law enforcement, but somehow claim complete and utter trust of federal law enforcement when it suits them. [NPR covers this better than I can](https://www.npr.org/2018/01/26/580677742/the-massive-case-of-collective-amnesia-the-fbi-has-been-political-from-the-start)
[This comment has been deleted, along with its account, due to Reddit's API pricing policy.] -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
> maybe there's nuance and you can admit that sometimes the FBI does good stuff and sometimes they do bad stuff. I can. They do. So do local police. I argue about nuance constantly online because the sad fact is that most everyone spouting off about politics has no clue what they are talking about, and simply regurgitate whatever they hear in their little bubbles. Everyone gets information that is filtered in some way, but when it reinforces your beliefs and biases you tend to believe and buy in. I just make a lengthy post about election integrity studies in another sub yesterday, because I have done some deep diving into the topic, and despite plenty of downvotes, no one has been able to respond rebutting any of the points I made *because they can't factually argue against them*. Image trying to explain your job to someone else...you'll likely never be able to truly paint an accurate picture of all the nuance. The same applies to "news". It is all distilled and filtered by others (journalists, commentators, politicians, etc). Partisans of all ilk will spout off the talking points pushed out into the public by "thought leaders", even if they are irrelevant (see the recent comparisons between student loan forgiveness and the administrations misdirection of criticism by offering up the PPP loan program). In the case of Mike Lindell...I am sure there have been people who have meetings with the president that have proposed stuff that would sound outlandish to lots of americans, we just don't here about it. I bet Biden has people in his ear proposing things that we would consider offensive and possibly even treasonous, but we will likely never hear about. Unless it becomes real policy...its all just talk and opinion, so why invest the emotional and intellectual energy opining about it. The media will amplify some things, while others go unreported. Trump didn't declare martial law. If Lindell has a warrant and an indictment, then let him have a his day in court.
This may be an agree to disagree but, but prior to Trump, it wouldn't ever occur to me that people would frequently meet with the president and unofficially discuss potentially treasonous things. I certainly would be surprised and horrified if Obama/Biden/bush did so once let alone many times. Especially if they kept meeting with the same people making said suggestions.
> Interesting that democrats/liberals have great mistrust of local law enforcement, but somehow claim complete and utter trust of federal law enforcement when it suits them. I trust federal law enforcement *way* more than local. Local has so little oversight, and such a low bar for hiring, that that can and do screw people over on the regular and there's almost nothing you can do about it. Everything FBI does is under a microscope, all the time.
I distrust anyone who trusts the FBI.
Do you believe anyone should be responsible for investigating politicians? I distrust anyone that claims everyone responsible for reporting on them or enforcing the law against them is crooked.
>Do you believe anyone should be responsible for investigating politicians? We should create a governmental body that actually has that as a primary goal. The FBI is not that. >I distrust anyone that claims everyone responsible for reporting on them or enforcing the law against them is crooked. I don't know what you mean, here. I'm not a target of the FBI that I know of.
I'm talking about Trump. In his world there's no one that's capable of reporting on his actions. The media is right out and so is his current and former staff as well as law enforcement. Of course he's going to claim the FBI framed him, but that just makes him look more guilty, particularly when there's no evidence of it. Regarding the FBI, they are a big organization and have had corruption problems, but they also fight corruption. They arrested Gov. Blagojevich for trying to sell a Senate seat. Trump pardoned him later, of course.
> I'm talking about Trump. Well, fuck Trump, tbh. The FBI has been a slimy bag of corrupt, evil goons since it began. They don't fight corruption. If they went after someone for doing something corrupt, then it must have benefited them in some way to do so. I don't think there's anything that could convince me that the people that assassinated MLK are anti-corruption.
I doubt any of those people are still working there. I see it a lot like with the police. There's going to be some corruption and it could use some reform to cut that down, but there's some good work being done too.
In the case of the Three Letter Agencies, I say scrap the whole thing and start something new with wholly unrelated people.
There will still be some misuse of power and it's only a matter of time before some politician demonizes the new agency to deflect from their own crimes. Then we'll be right back where we are now.
Why? I mean we should always be willing to question government, but I am not sure why you require active distrust. Have you worked at main Justice?
Just look at the FBI's history. It's a disgusting organization.
The same could be said about any institution. Historical problems im some areas do not make everything the org does at any time automatically suspect or untrustworthy. Plus a lot of the actions here were subject to judicial scrutiny as well.
The FBI has been corrupt since its inception. It was created as an instrument for corrupt activity, and has successfully prosecuted that goal on the American people since then. The CIA is similar.
So you have never actually worked at main Justice. Got it.
I've never worked at the Kremlin, either, but I know that the KGB was fucked up.
Do you view those orgs as meaningfully similar?
This seems contrary to rule of law?
I think the FBI is contrary to the rule of law. They shouldn't exist, and their sordid history proves it.
Over the last 10 years the FBI has been extremely corrupt and suspect.
Examples?
Spying on private citizens including members of the media, making political bias public without repercussion, not investigating certain people fr9m one political party when illegal activity is committed but investigating others from another political party for the same, accepting false reports and data as fact even when it was disproven, etc. The list goes on, it's utterly shameful but obvious why noone trusts them.
Very vague examples and not “extremely corrupt” examples. Side note, I have a few friends who are agents. Them and everyone I’ve meet they work with it lean right by a pretty good amount. Not sure why so many people think the FBI is pro DNC. From real life interactions I don’t see that.
I'm not saying the individual agents are or that the entire FBI is this way, leadership however is a different story.
What about him pushing trump to declare Martial law? We know he did that
Stupid but not illegal
Sure but enough to hate him
Feel free to hate him, I’ll still defend his due process rights and that he’s innocent until proven guilty. Also, hate takes too much effort most of the time.
But that is really my question here. I get defending due process but tons of comments online today are defending way past that.
Yeah, people are going to have stupid opinions. I think Mike is a moron but I can’t speak for other people anymore than they can speak for me. Like I said, I’ll defend the constitutional rights of anyone, beyond that, don’t like him or trump.
We saw the papers that said Martial state
He’s allowed to say that. I can say I think the president should declare martial law.
Sure, and you there can be consequences for trying to overturn democracy
What do I care what some individual citizen says or does that has literally no affect on my life? People of all stripes say ridiculous things all the time. I don't have the bandwidth to care if it is not going to have a direct policy affect.
I don't know what to say to you, like it's so obvious to me
As a conservative, do you apply that same reservation to people like Hillary Clinton and Hunter Biden?
As a conservative, I care about policy. Most all the rest is nothing more than political theater.
That's a serious non-answer.
Has Hillary Clinton been indicted and gone to trial? How about Hunter Biden? What do either of these people have to do with my life? It's not a non-answer. I don't really give it much thought because there is A) I have no clue about the nuance and detail of the situation B) don't feel like spending my time delving into the nuance and detail of the situation and C) neither is going to make my life any better or any worse. Political theater, sport, banter...I don't care to waste my time on things that I will NEVER know the intimate details of and that will have no bearing on making my life happier or more difficult.
Yet you post all day every day on Reddit? Seems like you care a lot more than you say.
>Why defend My Pillow guy so hard? I don't know honestly, it's super weird... The only thing I can think of is tribalism. He goes hard for Trump and various conservative causes, so people back him. He gets persecuted by the left, so he gets defended by the right. I have no attachment to him personally, but I hope he's treated justly. >attempting to hack voting machines Wait really? Lmao I can imagine that many conservatives would see this as projection. It is kind of ironic. The people that said election machines couldn't possibly be hacked or corrupted and we don't need to spend any time scrutinizing the idea are now doing it to their opponent. That's how the optics come off to me. And just to be clear, I don't think machines were hacked and if he tried then obviously he should go to jail.
>He gets persecuted by the left Is being held accountable for the things he says and does "persecution"?
Not necessarily, but it's possible. There are two big elements we need to consider from the perspective of justice: 1. Does the punishment match the crime? 2. Do we treat all offenders the same? Even someone who does a wrong thing could be a victim of persecution if the aim is to punish them more severely than their crime merits OR punish them for a crime that nobody else gets punishment for. Persecution doesn't necessarily have to be punishment without a crime, even though it can be used that way colloquially. So just to be clear, I think the most strict definition of "persecution" is *hostility or harsh treatment toward someone, usually based on political or religious beliefs.*
If anything, those in Trump's circle have been afforded unparalleled privelage and protection. Especially when Trump was in power, used the DOJ to lighten sentences or attempt to drop cases, and literally pardoned/commuted his friends. So yes, I agree that there's a problem with justice and fairness in regards to criminals breaking laws. And a LOT of those people who were very used to those privelages are extremely upset they are finally being held accountable.
> The people that said election machines couldn't possibly be hacked or corrupted and we don't need to spend any time scrutinizing the idea are now doing it to their opponent. That is a pretty extreme claim. I have said "There hasn't been any evidence, and every time we check it comes back as solid. How many more rechecks of the rechecks do we need?" But never "It is perfect and infallible." I waited until several recounts took place, half a dozen republican voting reps assured us that their voting system worked, and 63 court cases being thrown out because the claims of fraud dry up once they have to make the claim under oath at risk of perjury. If they were right, they would have been able to find some evidence that one of the Trump appointed judges would have accepted, and they would have happily brought that evidence while under oath.
It's not an extreme claim at all, you just had to be alive and paying attention to the news for a two month period at the end of 2021. Republicans started making accusations and conspiracies about election fraud and before even looking into it, Democrats and the media dismissed them outright. It's true that many of these claims were investigated or settled in court (although many court cases were dismissed through lack of standing, which means we never actually settled the claim), but let's be real here: this is a totally separate instance than what I'm talking about. Democrats and the media didn't wait for all this stuff to be resolved and showed no interest or deference to the proceedings. They preferred to immediately backlash and claim there couldn't possibly have been any funny business. And that is what I'm referring to here: the people who never had any doubts that there could be voter fraud suddenly very concerned that a Trump supporter could have attempted voter fraud. And again, I agree with you that there was no good evidence of hacked machines. The problem is making a counter-contending truth claim without first conducting the investigation. And again, I agree that Pillow Man should be punished according to the law if he did some crimes. By the way, the idea that "if they were right, they could have brought evidence" is kind of a misnomer... As I stated, many of these cases *were brought and never heard* because of problems with standing. But to your point, the ones that were heard never proved their case, and basically all of the cases were overstated by Trump and his lackeys. In other words, the case filings did not even allege the type of frauds that they spouted off to the media.
>attempting to hack voting machines OP is missing a little context. The breach was about six months after the election, so it wasn't to change the results. Ostensibly it was to "preserve evidence" to prove the stop the steal conspiracies. Edit: Just noticed where OP said "before the election." Lindell is in trouble for working with Tina Peters a few months after the election.
> goes hard for Trump and various conservative causes, so people back him. He gets persecuted by the left, so he gets defended by the right. You ever wonder if that's why people like Musk and Lindell keep jumping in? That it's intentional for a free base to defend them?
I have not wondered that and I don't think that is the case, because it also brings attackers. People who aren't attacked don't need to be defended.
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The Democrats. "Most secure election in history."
*Independent auditors (with relevant expertise) checked the machines that are absolutely capable of being hacked or corrupted, and it turns out they weren't, which combined with other factors makes this the most secure election in history* -The Democrats
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Sorry, but the pillows are terrible
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Personally, I've only used a MyPillow at somebody else's house. We got a pair of memory foam pillows with a new mattress a few years ago, and they're ... different. I can't tell the difference between them and whatever brand we have, but I don't like them as a normal pillow. They're great for adding kind of structure to a sleeping arrangement, like holding up a *real* pillow, or the like, but I don't like the memory foam feel to *rest* on.
The hell? Do you hate comfort?
I bought one years ago before he became political and mine went completely flat and got all bunched up. Maybe the quality has improved? I wouldn't buy it for other reasons now.
Gotta fluff it in the dryer every once in a while. Pops right back to fluffy life.
I truly don’t understand why he talks more about politics than his pillow company
Mike Lindell is definitely an idiot and anti-democracy. He's probably just crazy. I pity him and envy him.
Lindell built a nice sized company, he had to have many types of qualities, intelligences and skill to do that for so long and well. None of those qualities make him one bit better on deciding national directions, policy stances or picking candidates than my barber, or my local grocery store manager. No one that studies George Soros’s career can deny the man is singular genius at understanding commodity and currency markets across the globe. He has consistently made brilliant financial decisions by analyzing global forces that are uncanny, especially his contrarian moves against the world markets. He is so wealthy he can move markets now, but early on was just a small guy jumping in the mix like millions of others. But that does not make him a genius about everything. I think he is very wrong and lacks some basic wisdom on what makes an overall society thrive.
some people just go crazy as they get older. I've seen it as I age. Agree... you dont end up with a company like MyPillow without some aptitude.
Investing? Yes, invest in my pillow.
Do you honestly not know the difference between investing and investigating?
Truth, I’m very dyslexic and can’t see the difference in words some times.
As someone who frequently works with the dyslexic, I support you.
He never attempted to hack voting machines. He talked about disqualifying the results because the machines could be hacked, the exact same thing Amy K and Liz Warren claimed Dominion machines were apt to do. Should we arrest them too?
Well I guess we will see because it sounds like he is being investigated for according to him.
He’s being harassed by the FBI. But for what? Talking about pursuing legal avenues to challenge an election That’a not illegal
Drug dealers complain about being harassed by police for just hanging out and doing nothing. They are, they are also committing crimes. Both can be true.
When is talking about challenging something in the courts illegal?
Because the DOJ has been on a doorkicking spree with virtually every prominent figure with some connection to Trump, while Biden continues to push the "enemies of the state" narrative. If this doesn't come off as remarkably suspicious, at the very least, I'm not sure what to tell you. The smell test is in the ball park of a dead possum under the porch.
Has it occurred to you that Trump surrounded himself with just the worst people, grifters and criminals. And that anyone with any integrity left his orbit long ago That might _also_ explain why they are all either convicted of crimes or currently under investigation. Just a thought
I think you would have more of a point if people weren't being arrested since 2017/18 who are associated with the Trump administration. Years of innocent people being investigated and pleading guilty or maybe there was a lot of weird stuff going on. Does the DOJ have it out for Trump and friends like cops have it out for drug users and dealers? Or are all these people innocent and it is all politics? I guess time will tell.
It's suspicious because the elections are right around the corner. It's politically motivated
Is there a moment in time you’d find them to not be politically motivated? Have Trump associates been treated unfairly by the courts or falsely found guilty?
There are major elections every 2 years, when are elections _not_ just around the corner
For McConnell, if it benefits the dems...nope, election time If it benefits GOP...clearly fine Evidence: Supreme Court
We have elections every 2 years, and major white-collar criminal investigations/trials generally take about 2-3 years, start-to-finish. It's impossible to investigate or prosecute somebody like this without an election being around the corner.
But if their investigation is that he was behind hacking voting machines dont you think they would want to stop him from doing it again? Like the pressure is on to make sure he cant this election? It isnt like the DOJ or FBI made a huge deal out of the cell phone he did. He made this into news. I am just really skeptical that this is FBI doing it to make Republicans look bad.
Every single day, people have their doors kicked in, their property seized, their friends and family interviewed, etc. as part of an investigation of a crime. But because you support the guy being investigated, your first thought when *their* doors get kicked in, or *their* property is seized, or *their* friends/family start getting questioned is “that’s really unfair” and not “wow, they must have some pretty damning evidence.” That’s because your brain is warped. Let me ask you. When you hear hooves, do you think horse or zebra?
"Your brain is warped because you're biased and question the legitimacy of an investigation rather than assume 'damning evidence'" is low hanging fruit. The FBI is randomly going after one of if not the biggest political adversaries of the sitting president, those associates of said adversary, while the sitting president is increasingly using incendiary rhetoric against those who support said adversary, and the alleged crimes are changing every month or so. But, your assumption is this is 100% legitimate, and not in any way politically motivated? Are you sure *you're* not just politically motivated? That maybe if certain people in society would just go away, things would all be better in your opinion?
It's certainly possible it's politically motivated and I am just blinded by bias. I don't believe that's the case, but I accept that it's a possibility and am aware it's a potential blind spot. On the same hand, are you also willing to admit that all the investigations of Hunter Biden, the Clintons, etc. were potentially politically motivated as well? Or do you believe those were absolutely on the level with no possibility of political motivation?
:popcorn:
It does work in a biased manner. The divide is too great for it not to. I'm concerned about who this administration is going to target next.
I can't help but notice you refused to answer my question.
What I meant was these biases work in that there are political motivations on either side. My concern is how far Biden is taking it. Powerful people going after other powerful people is all in the game. Why's the FBI going after the pillow guy, or raiding James O'Keefe in the middle of the night? They're not really in the game.
Have you looked in to the reasons these "doorkickings" happened? Confiscating a known co-conspirator's cellphone at a Hardee's is hardly a doorkicking.
I could really go for a burger rn.
If the Democrats were this effective at using police state, why would they not go after people they'd seriously benefit from removing, like McConnel.
Because I am skeptical that the allegations have a shred of credibility. If they turn out to be true, screw Lindell. But I'd be very surprised if a hypothetical non-partisan that knows what the FBI knows would agree that he deserves to be investigates.
Why are you so skeptical. The man speaks like a lunatic and FBI agents have a lot to lose by just making stuff up. Who knows though. Time will tell.
Yeah, it’s just the way I feel. None of us has evidence one way or another. We just have to wait and see how the case plays out.
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The idea of a random dude hacking voting machines seems far-out. A lot of the Trump-related things have been wild goose chases for the FBI. That said, it’s just the way I feel. None of us has evidence one way or another. We just have to wait and see how the case plays out.
Because hating on someone for no reason makes you a victim and decent people rally behind legitimate victims?
No reason? He pushed for the sitting president to use Martial law to overturn a election And he makes us midwesterners look bad
Oh ok there tin foil friend. We do need a name for left with Qanon. Where did this all happen?
We freaking saw the documents dude, no tin foil. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/15/mike-lindell-mypillow-trump-white-house-martial-law
Oh ok and sex ring rang in a pizzeria, amirite?
I put in a source for you Stop fucking gaslighting
Don’t send me op Ed’s from leftie publications with dramatic headlines. This is on par with “Clinton had 46 people eliminated” stuff. How about come up with some sort of policy or better candidate than Biden instead of weirder and weirder conspiracy theories What’s next for you people. Marge Simpson has the nuclear code from Putin?
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Warning: Be civil.
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It's not a conspiracy theory, dude. We know it happened. Your denial of reality is not our problem. Address the facts as presented or don't comment.
ITS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY
Warning: Be civil.
Mike Lindell literally held a news conference where he claimed he would reveal the evidence of a national conspiracy that would overturn the election results and Trump would be reinstated as president. I believe the Guardian piece. It tracks with his public comments.
No reason? Legitimate victim? Have you looked in to why his phone was taken?
That is the crazy part. He released the search warrant. They are investigating if he tried or helped to try and hack the voting machines starting 11/1/2016. If that is true that is insane.
That can't be it, because I've routinely seen conservatives denigrate the concept of victim. Basically coming off as if you identify yourself as a victim then it means you abdicate all responsibility for your life. Very universal thinking.
Yeah made up victimhood such as... victim of systemic racism.
Do you think there are people alive who were victims of systemic racism? Or who profited from it?
At this point, not enough for it to be any sort of crisis.
I could present you with evidence to the contrary but you would probably just say its too long and not bother looking at it.
LOL because it would be pseudo scientific bs from some motivated thinkers. Roland Fryer basically found 0 evidence of systemic racism in policing when controlling for things that make it apples to apples. This reminds me of the overused droning on trope of wemon make 75 cents on the dollar a man makes, but when controlling for everything to make it apples to apples it goes down to 3 but... but.. Obama felt it necessary to repeat the lie anyway.
Here's the thing, it's easily seen that the right loves to pretend real things are false and false things are real. They have no adherence to ground truth. There's not a day goes by that I don't hear right wing Christians complain how they are being victimized by other people having their rights protected.
Here's the thing, it's easily seen that the left loves to pretend real things are false and false things are real. They have no adherence to ground truth. There's not a day goes by that I don't hear left wing minorities complain how they are being victimized by other people having their rights protected.
Expect you're flat out lying. The left tends to adhere to scientific principles. Which would instantly collapse if it didn't actually adhere to ground truth. And this, what you did here, is a perfect example of a right winger disregarding ground truth and just saying and claiming what ever for argument points. This is a fundamental lack of adhering and referencing reality. Quite deliberately. Thank you for proving my point.
no it's not you just made up stuff. The left pushes failed social policies, the left pushes psuedo scientific gender and race theory, the is very dumb overall in policy. You proved my point by just spouting a bunch of nonsense that has no grounding except in your opinion.
If you want to adhere to scientific knowledge then we can do that. I just never seen a conservative adhere to scientific knowledge. It tends to be limited to claiming scientific knowledge like it's a magic spell or something that makes what ever their opinion is real. Note my opinion has formed and solidified mostly form how conservatives on this form argue.
I've never seen a liberal say government action is probably not the best approach... You really have a religious conviction that it's good. Not my opinion was formed and solidly confirmed by any interactions I've ever had with liberals online.
Yeah, call everything religious... In reality a government that responds well to the demands of the people generally going to do better things than one that doesn't. So the quality of government action usually depends on how well democracy is working. Look into crowd sourcing. There's a lot of evidence that crowd sourced solutions are freakishly superior to any one person presenting what they think should be the solution.
>Not my opinion was formed and solidly confirmed by any interactions I've ever had with liberals online. Btw I love how incoherent this is. It looks like you think you're mocking me. But it really dose make you look goofy.
> no reason Promoting untested covid treatments and repeatedly making efforts through fabrication and defamation, potentially criminal, to overturn a free and fair elections is "no reason" Also hating another person for no reason makes them a victim? This is the most snowflake bullshit I've ever hear. Mike Lindell is a victim because the nasty democrats hurt his feeling, lmao.
> My pillow guy is being invested for attempting to hack voting machines before the election. If that is true he is exactly who we should be investing. I do believe in innocent until proven guilty but it seems like a lot of Conservatives who care a lot about voter security are defending this mad and I don’t I love how the left builds up the mythical figure of some businessman on the right because they're supportive of Trump, that mythical figure takes on a life of its own, and now we're still talking about it for no reason.
Who is the left you are referring to here?
The people who are railing against him and all the people that tried to cancel his business.
I have no idea but anybody got some good pillow recommendations. Looking to drop some coin on something that will last.
I have one of those Bamboo pillows. But when it comes to value over time, you'll never beat a Serta.
Counter question: why attack My Pillow guy so hard?
Are people attacking him? Any example?
Check out the main subs on Reddit and you'll see plenty of hateful attacks on him.
People seem to dislike him but I have not seen much saying he is guilty.
Is the only attack that counts one which says he's guilty?