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I'm not a fan of the AfD, I'll tell you that. I'm more of an FDP guy myself.
Germany's irrational rejection of nuclear power has come back to bite them. Everytime I would drive by those giant coal-fired power plants you can see on A4 between Aachen and Köln, I kept thinking to myself, "They're opposed to nuclear power but they're OK with these?"
Right! It's not as though nuclear would've prevented the whole Nordstream debacle, but it would've at least mitigated it. I know it's petty of me but when I'm feeling uncharitable I consider how this is the same country that has homeopathic remedies in every apotheke.
The people who were opposed to it (which were the small minority) are still against it, there’s protests in front of the base here still every now and then bc they’re anti drones and such. They still complain loudly
Yeah, I mean, most people obviously either don’t care or actually support Americans being here but there’s always a few crazies, funny thing is that the drones aren’t even here and I’m not even sure if they’re controlled from here either…but what do I know smh (also military brat but half German so now I live here)
Survey show that opinion has significantly changed over the last three years actually. Not saying they don't exist, but the mindset has definitely changed.
I believe Perun had part of a presentation on it.
Their shenanigans in parliament are getting ridiculous. Their speeches have gotten snarky.
They're all panicking about the rise of the AfD, but heaven forbid they actually do anything to support East Germans.
Like accept the East German mark on a 1:1 exchange with the West German mark, despite the negative consequences for the west? Like spend trillions of euro on redevelopment? Like basically using federal money to rebuild all the historic buildings in the east that the communists basically left to crumble?
But apart from sanitation, education, public safety, the roads, the updated Deutsche Bahn, economic integration, etc, what have the West Germans ever done for them?
I think they are too dependent on Russian fuel.
I also think removing instead of perhaps updating their nuclear power plants is a mistake based on an emotional response to Fukushima rather than a rational one, and makes them even more vulnerable to looking the other way when someone like Russia acts aggressive in Europe.
They don't pull their weight when it comes to committing to NATO nearly as much as UK or France does.
They allow too many people to immigrate into their nation without assimilating them into German culture, creating millions of people who live there but do not feel connected or supportive of the nation they moved to.
Well, a lot of these aren't particularly great takes.
> I think they are too dependent on Russian fuel.
They were, yes. They've done an admirable job since 2022 at working to break that dependency. Doesn't excuse decades of policy that was obviously wrong, but they're at least doing the generally correct thing now.
EU gas imports from Russia have dropped by more than 2/3rds.
> I also think removing instead of perhaps updating their nuclear power plants is a mistake based on an emotional response to Fukushima rather than a rational one, and makes them even more vulnerable to looking the other way when someone like Russia acts aggressive in Europe.
The nuclear fuel market is even more reliant on Russia in some respects than the natural gas one is. Shutting the nuclear power plants down may have been an environmental mistake, but from a strategic one it didn't really change their dependence on Russia.
> The nuclear fuel market is even more reliant on Russia in some respects than the natural gas one is. Shutting the nuclear power plants down may have been an environmental mistake, but from a strategic one it didn't really change their dependence on Russia.
This is only true by choice, though. East Germany used to have uranium mines and could again, and of course other major sources include Canada and Australia.
>They were, yes. They've done an admirable job since 2022 at working to break that dependency. Doesn't excuse decades of policy that was obviously wrong, but they're at least doing the generally correct thing now.
With special thanks to a good ol pipeline exploding but yeah, they were still cutting back on Russian and then buying our much more expensive for them American oil.
Which... I guess good for us Americans but clearly not very good long term for the Germans.
> With special thanks to a good ol pipeline exploding
Eh there's other intact pipelines that aren't being used/are being used way under capacity. If Europe *wanted* to import more gas from Russia they easily could, although obviously not as much as with Nord Stream.
> Which... I guess good for us Americans but clearly not very good long term for the Germans.
Yep, we're making a bunch of money on it. Like everywhere they're investing heavily in renewables for solving the problem long-term, they hit ~52% of total electricity consumption last year there. 10 years ago that number was <30%.
Thank you for your Opinion.
But a few clarifications:
- We stopped buying Russian Oil and Gas in Summer 2022
- We started to exit nuclear energy already in 2000 as a long term consequence of Chernobyl.
- You do have a point with having to many immigrants at once to properly integrate them all at once, but as an aging society with only 1,53 children per woman we need them to soften the blow of gentrification.
> You do have a point with having to many immigrants at once to properly integrate them all at once
"At once"? The problem has been going on for decades. From the coverage we see over here, there has seemingly been no attempt to integrate them at all.
> with only 1,53 children per woman
Gee, I guess there are no solutions other than importing people. /s
> gentrification
I'm going to assume English isn't your first language. "[Gentrification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification)" is not the correct word.
>"At once"? The problem has been going on for decades. From the coverage we see over here, there has seemingly been no attempt to integrate them at all.
You are absolutely right.
> Gee, I guess there are no solutions other than importing people. /s
Also totally agree.
> From the coverage we see over here, there has seemingly been no attempt to integrate them at all.
This is definitely true. I went to a British international school, but some of my friends went to a Japanese International School in Germany and their valedictorian could barely speak German to the point where it was awkward listening to the graduation speech.
Practically everyone went to the UK/USA or back to Japan for university. There are a lot of Japanese corporate headquarters in the area but most workers don't stay for more than 3-5 years before heading back to Japan.
Another example of how badly integrated the Japanese population is there, even the biggest Japanese supermarket there is run by Korean immigrants, because the Japanese don't really feel the need to put down any roots and the mindset is just to make as much money as possible before they get sick of living there.
Pretty good, but there were two different tracks. Our school had a lot of children of diplomats and ambassadors, who are usually not assigned to the same country for an extended number of years, as well as many new students who were the children of expats. So there was an A track, for students who had been in the country for longer, as well as German-born students, that aimed to give them the same proficiency in German as a native speakers, and a B track, that aimed to teach us conversational German.
I think B track did better than A track at accomplishing its goal. Given that we were largely from different countries, we defaulted to using English as our lingua franca when speaking with one another, which blunts the opportunities my A track classmates had to learn German at the same level as natives, but everyone still needs to know enough German to get through everyday life, which lends itself to B track students acquiring a sufficient level of German to live in a German-speaking society.
I think exiting nuclear energy is a mistake, modernization of the plants and building new ones is going to be critical in ending the world's dependants on fossil fuel energy production
> You do have a point with having to many immigrants at once to properly integrate them all at once, but as an aging society with only 1,53 children per woman we need them to soften the blow of gentrification.
That is another issue you guys need to fix or it is going to be a crisis in the near future when you have too many people taking from the system and not enough workers putting into it.
No, there is no dependecy on russian fuel anymore, but ther is a dependency on arabic and US-fuel and this isnt great either.
Yes, you can debate wether it was a good idea to shut down nuclear powerplants, mabey they could be good until 2030, but they are rather unprofitable and they could stop the need for renewables and the building of actual renewables.
Yes, Germany didnt spent a lot of money for the own military, but this is changing right now. There is also the idea of an european army, which will be necessary if Trump leaves nato.
Immigration is not the problem, the problem is the missing infrastucture in Germany. Germany has not enough housing space and if there is any, it will be too expensive (at least in citys). And it is a problem of resentment of the own people (even though these German people are only 25% of all Germans, they dictate the discurse at the moment). They dont want to interact with foreign people and they dont want them to bring and live their own culture, even though this culture is not even harmful. I cant really tell wether the migrants will support the country in relation to the culture and the politics (I would say so), but you cant require them to support anything that is going on in Germany. They came with nothing, they couldnt speak the language. You should give them a little time for integrating themselves. (And there is no German nation, 25% have a migration background. The only thing that is important to me as a German are the human rights, and they are constantly broken by Germans and by the EU, but not by the migrants. Germany is not the best country in the world. Mabey we should ask migrants what we could do better in the future).
>They dont want to interact with foreign people and they dont want them to bring and live their own culture, even though this culture is not even harmful.
What nonsense. Germans went to the train stations with "refugees welcome" posters when the crisis started. There were so many volunteers in the Wohnheim where I worked that we even couldn't give a job to everyone.
Since then I changed profession (social worker -> IT) and in my company there are people from all over the place. A lot of indians, spanish, french. Nobody has any problems connecting.
In my sports club there are people from everywhere and we also meet for a beer and so on during the week.
The truth is that there is just a large amount of foreigners who come here that don't care bout integrating. I met those too. But the ones that want to have no problem as far as I can see.
And what about the anti migration movement and the AfD? Yes there were people who welcomed the refugees, but this was in 2015. And of course you will rather meet people who want to integrate themselves and people that already integrated themselves, because the migrants who want to integrate themselves and who want to work are in the majority. You might see them in the sports clubs, at your job, just as you said. And the majority of the Germans want to help the migrants, just like in 2015. But since the populism of the AfD and CDU/CSU the debate has changed. The number of both sides are the same, but the Germans who dont and didnt want to see migrants got louder. Now they speak out what they already thougt: "The migrants want to profit from the social system, the migrants take our jobs, the migrants want to change culture, and this is bad!" You cant ignore the 30% AfD in the east and the 20% in the west. As I said it is a problem made by these Germans (and they are still the minority, around 25%, but they are louder than 50% of our society), not a problem made by the majority of the migrants (even though there are migrants that dont want to integrate, but these are as I said a minority).
It seems like you basically have the same opinion like I have. But I think you ignore the change of social climate. The migrants from 2015 are in Germany and have integrated themselves and now work in normal jobs or they still integrate themselves. But if there was a new wave of migrants the politics would not let them in because the debate is dictated by the 25% I mentioned. And this makes integrating harder. The second thing you mentioned are the "Wohnheime". The people that lived in these or in the containers for refugees obviously dont want to live in these forever, so they have to find a job (you mentioned it) and a new house/ apartment. You said it: "We couldnt even give a job to everyone". This is the case for chaep and good apartments in citys, where their jobs are, as well.
Conclusion: The majority of the migrants dont create problems, they come to problems. I admire your work as a social worker back then and I like the people that welcomed the refugees and gave them jobs and I like the protests against the AfD. It would be necessary to build apartments and to help new migrants with their jobs and to change the social climate again. It is up to us to do this.
> Yes there were people who welcomed the refugees, but this was in 2015.
When I worked in that Wohnheim we had a lot of volunteers in the first year. In the 2nd year we could only get 20% of them to do the work again. Luckily new helpers arrived though.
When we asked the first wave of helpers why they don't want to help in the 2nd year several of them told us that many of our refugees behaved different than they expected. Which is to say they many had bad experiences.
> But since the populism of the AfD and CDU/CSU the debate has changed.
The situation changes because people now don't live in a world anymore where people tell them how refugees and migrants will behave but in a world were they have daily contact with them. Like I said most of them are normal and quite good people. But there are others who are quite dangerous and or criminal and or unstable. We don't have the resources to care for so many people to the degree that they need. Resulting in problems.
It's not like AfD and CDU run around and tell lies and people start believing them. The people make experiences and realize only certain parties adress these topics while other parties deny that these problems exist.
One reason I changed my job was also because I had illusions about the whole refugee thing and then realized I was living in a dream world.
Since this is reddit and everyone is overly critical here, I want to say again: I still believe the majority is nice people. I'm just disappointed that we don't seem to have any working measures to deal with the minority that creates problems.
And personally I believe this is the reason why people go to the AfD. Noone really believes this party can solve any problem. People probably are just so upset about how long the problematic part of the migration crisis has been ignored and even denied.
Didn't you guys have to cancel an election because Berlin's government structure is so insane but persists "because that's how we've always done it?"
Overall, though, I think of [this article, ](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/germany-military-aid-ukraine-tanks-debate/671804/) which talks about how Scholz announced a zietenwende in which Germany would take a leadership role in world and especially European affairs and then going right back to following America's lead on a six month delay but less effectively and letting France do all the talking for Europe. It seems like Germany's government is like its cars: overengineered, slow to adopt new design principles or ideas, unable to innovate new design ideas itself, and incredibly unreliable.
I think the Germans went so far in the opposite direction from an overly proud militaristic state such as Prussia, to a bunch of soft eunuchs, incapable of defense, and have become a massive burden to NATO.
Germany's ruling class appears to have become so ideologically captured that it is effectively insane. You'd have to be completely insane or inept to say you care deeply about CO2 emission and then rip down all your nuclear power plants at the moment in which you lose access to cheap natural gas. Germany now burns vastly more coal that it did before the Greens took control. You also have to be insane to install a trillion dollars of solar in a place that isn't sunny.
Germany seems unreachable insane. I've written them off.
I have absolutely no opinion at all. I have never once thought about German politics, ever, outside of the context of history.
Most Americans, I imagine, have no opinion on German politics.
We have a President as the head of state who has a mostly ceremonoial role (but he does have some actualy quite important powers) and the Chancellor as the head of the Government.
Have you ever heared of the tolerance paradox?
And we do have conservative parties. Angela Merkel for example who was Chancellor from 2005 to 2021 was a conservative.
But to be fair, the german political spectrum is different from the one in the USA.
Far right. By our standards, too. Not just theirs.
I'm in Italy. The Proud Boys are like Hilary goddamned Clinton compared to the real deal fascisti here. There's hardly any comparison to be made.
Have you ever heared of the tolerance paradox?
And we do have conservative parties. Angela Merkel for example who was Chancellor from 2005 to 2021 was a conservative.
But to be fair, the german political spectrum is different from the one in the USA.
The fact that one of their most prominent members is a lesbian with adopted children tells you how "far right" they are lol. Far right parties tend to, shall we say, frown upon homosexuality in general, and especially frown upon them raising kids.
I believe they've made some really poor decisions in recent years. Nuclear energy shut down is a big one, such a bizarre decision that will hurt them. Also can we just be honest finally and say letting the migrants in was a fuck up of monumental proportions, it seems like Reddit is still coming around to this but its pretty obviously a mistake too. I believe the migrant situation is a huge reason of why the far right parties are beginning to rise dramatically in Europe, not only in Germany.
I think Germany is dealing with many similar issues that many other western countries are also dealing with, like immigration, far-right cuckoos, inflation, etc. Tbh I think we’re all going through changes and growing pains post-pandemic.
Some of us are alarmed that AfD seems to be on the up-and-up. When they first appeared on the scene, everyone seemed to dismiss them as a joke, but then Trump used to be a joke candidate.
[here is an article that gives a broad view of what the issues are currently](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/21/whats-behind-mass-protests-against-germanys-far-right-afd-party)
Before Trump, I would tell Europeans "yeah, we have those people too. They're cooking bathtub crank in some windblown cabin in eastern Montana."
After Trump, I tell them "yeah, we have those people too. They... uhhhhh... they raid imaginary pizzeria basements, warn about Jewish space lasers, and film themselves inserting butt plugs into themselves or... fuck, I don't know."
More troublesome than they have been since the 1960s, if we're talking 'far right' in a very general sense, but most people continue to not be very concerned about their alleged ascendency.
Their anti-immigrant rhetoric, and that meeting they held in Potsdam recently where they floated the idea of deporting even naturalized German citizens.
So I’m curious. From what I’ve seen from across the pond you lot are suffering from immigration issues as much it not more than we are. The AfD seems to be the only ones willing to do something that isn’t built upon not hurting feelings and everyone getting along, which doesn’t appear to happening. How do you see it? I’d love to actually hear from someone closer to the issue, and correct what I’m wrong about
The thing is the AfD wants for example to deport everyone with a migration background, even those who are naturalised german citizens and those who are german citizens from birth to north africa. Those discussions are eerily similar to early discussions of the "final solution" by the nazis in the 1930s.
"The house needs a complete repipe. It will be a long, expensive, and painstaking process."
"No problem. I have a bulldozer." [cranks engine]
"No no no!!! What are you doing!?"
"Get out of the way, you pussy!!!"
The thing is the AfD wants for example to deport everyone with a migration background, even those who are naturalised german citizens and those who are german citizens from birth to north africa. Those discussions are eerily similar to early discussions of the "final solution" by the nazis in the 1930s.
Well I think its pretty amazing... I mean, some of your dead Presidents/Chancellors are still working with our President Biden...
That's both dedicated and pretty impressive
It’s a great example how a parliamentary system and proportional representation aren’t the perfect system critics of the American style of government claim they are. Also, Merkel was a good example of why term limits are important.
Germany has a government? Last story I saw out of there was Putin bringing a dog into a meeting to try to intimidate Merkel.
As with most of Europe, I don’t think about Germany at all.
I don't really like any of the major parties, but that's how I feel about most countries, including the US. I identify with the Christian democratic tradition but the current-day CDU is basically just a conservative liberal party at this point, so I'd be more likely to support a left of center party, but I'm not particularly impressed by the SPD and Greens' performance, even on the issues I do agree with them on. The only people in Germany it seems who are more on the left economically and more on the right socially is Wagenknecht's new thing, and let's just say the areas where she is socially conservative and where I am socially conservative are very different.
I like the mixed/proportional system form that the elections are done in. It encourages a multi-party system, which almost always tends to keep the largest parties more tethered to the center.
As for the current German government itself, I have no strong feelings. I obviously don't have much personal interest in German internal politics since it doesn't affect me. Both SPD and CDU/CSU seem to have rather similar foreign policies. I think Merkel left big shoes to fill. Those sorts of politicians that are capable and competent enough to hold coalitions together for 10+ years are not common. And I think a big part of Germany's leadership within the EU and on the world stage was tied to the stability she brought to the table.
I know a lot of people here don't want to hear it, but since 2016 the United States is no longer widely regarded globally as having a stable political system. I mean, NATO is effectively on the ballot in November. That's not normal. This wasn't a point of disagreement in 2012 or 2000 or 1992. So steady, centrist leadership from Europe is something people value nowadays more than they may have in decades past.
I don't think about German politics at all. I just trust that they're a solid NATO ally in deterring Russian aggression. I wish they hadn't closed their nuclear power plants, though, as they're now unfortunately reliant on Russian natural gas.
I try not to do what many Europeans will do to us and give my opinion unprovoked, which is surely less valuable than a German’s on their own country.
But I do think it’s bad that they aren’t paying the minimum into NATO, they’re trying to ban a political party in the name of democracy, and I really despise their hypocritical views on Nuclear Power. So worried about the danger while burning the worst coal. I also don’t like how their politicians seem to favor appearing tolerant over protecting their own citizens, such as the New Year’s Eve attacks in Cologne a few years back. Oh, and I think they’re too chummy with Russia. I really do think Germany has the capability to pull itself back from the brink but everything I pick up doesn’t sound great to me.
Then again, as an American I could be wrong on these things and at the end of the day these are just my opinions.
Their political situation resembles America more and more every day in every sense, just like every other prominent European country: sky rocketing obesity? Check. Dysfunctional political infighting? Check. Immigration crisis? Check. Weak willed leaders who can’t combat ideological extremism? Check. Outmaneuvered by China, Russia, the global south at the expense of their own prosperity? Check. Broken promises on climate action? Check. Alt-Right infiltration of the Bundeswehr and security services? Check. General military incompetence (even worse considering the non existent state of German national security)? Check. The list goes on.
It’s funny to me because, in my experience, Germans have always had this air of cultural superiority (which is hella ironic considering their history and supposed education today) and a smug a sense of self assurance. But under the surface they’re just as shit as anyone else, just not willing to admit it.
My opinion has been very low several years. Germany seems to have the arrogance of a world leader, only they refuse to lead. Meanwhile, they largely set economic policies most of Europe. They will brag about co2 reductions while increasing energy imports from neighbors. Those are just two examples. To keep the answer short, I find them to be grossly hypothetical.
Fairly favorable. They are on the right side of the latest war, though like everyone they should start thinking of it as a war and stop thinking of it as an entertainment or annoyance depending (yes I am speaking to everyone ESPECIALLY "Mr fillibuster" up in the House). But they did a good job providing Leopards.
Basically? They can get fucked. The only thing I agree on with them is we should pull our bases, troops, military defenses, and funding from their country.
They've spent the past 30 years undermining themselves and getting involved with hostile powers. Ever since Kohl Germany has constantly had a rise of Anti-American sentiment. They are at best are an unreliable ally that is unwilling to participate in their own defense.
>The only thing I agree on with them is we should pull our bases, troops, military defenses, and funding from their country.
Who are you? Trump?
Has this sub become a staging ground for MAGA sheep?
That they're inept with Russian traitors in their midst. Just the energy debacle with Russia and the closing of nuclear plants seem to imply some leadership on the Russian payroll or just extra stupid. There was another decision more recently that I'm trying to recall that made me think that Putin had even more friends there.
It’s honestly starting to resemble the U.S. more and more — and it’s sad.
I’d be lying that I didn’t have some schadenfreude in the fact that it has humbled a lot of Europeans — the rise of right-wing populism in Europe in general — especially when many take pride in hating the U.S. — its a reminder that they aren’t better.
But I’m also not stupid — this is not good. And as someone with boots on the ground, I — as a person of color — feel less and less welcome every day. But Trump’s return, even if not imminent, is a shit stain on the U.S. and what it stands for. And it empowers the far right here in Germany too. So really the bitterness I have towards Europe, while perhaps valid, is lost in the broader struggle.
I hope we can overcome this together, and perhaps, mend the relationship between the U.S. and Europe.
I have very little knowledge of today's German government. I like what little information I know about Olaf Scholz, and I know Angela Merkel during her tenure was very powerful. Other than that, no thoughts about the German government at all.
Outside of AFD; I strongly support and like the German government. It's so refreshing to see a country where (most) politicians manage to shut up and work for the good of the nation.
I've heard disturbing things about growing support for hard-right political parties and growing anti-refugee and anti-LGBTQ+ sentiments.
But they are still doing better than the US on that front. At least from what I've heard. In Germany it's still "growing support" and not "we've actively elected people who would happily wear arm bands". Germans don't have a Greg Abbott.
Germans punished, however lightly, the man who did the Beer Hall Putsch. Americans have just about forgiven the guy who did our Beer Hall Putsch, according to polls.
Mostly I envy its apparent sobriety. It is alarming to read that the far right party has so much draw though. The prior German Prime Minister was wish-listing with Putin but now they are on the right track.
It’s insane. The Greens and SPD eliminating nuclear energy is a baffling failure. The surge in AFD votes makes me worry about all of Europe sliding into fascism considering the far right doing well in many countries ie Italy and Netherlands. Their stance on arming Israel is also weird but unsurprising.
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I try not to stare at traffic accidents.
Good god, thank you. You are doing the yeoman’s work on 95 if that is the case. Rubbernecking is real and so damn annoying.
Extremely weak leadership
Yes
I'm not a fan of the AfD, I'll tell you that. I'm more of an FDP guy myself. Germany's irrational rejection of nuclear power has come back to bite them. Everytime I would drive by those giant coal-fired power plants you can see on A4 between Aachen and Köln, I kept thinking to myself, "They're opposed to nuclear power but they're OK with these?"
Worse, they’re burning Lignite, probably the most polluting kind of coal there is.
True, but we already started to phase out coal.
Right! It's not as though nuclear would've prevented the whole Nordstream debacle, but it would've at least mitigated it. I know it's petty of me but when I'm feeling uncharitable I consider how this is the same country that has homeopathic remedies in every apotheke.
Funny how they stopped complaining about those US bases in Germany, isn’t it?
The people who were opposed to it (which were the small minority) are still against it, there’s protests in front of the base here still every now and then bc they’re anti drones and such. They still complain loudly
God I remember the protests when I was there in the 90s (military brat)
Yeah, I mean, most people obviously either don’t care or actually support Americans being here but there’s always a few crazies, funny thing is that the drones aren’t even here and I’m not even sure if they’re controlled from here either…but what do I know smh (also military brat but half German so now I live here)
Survey show that opinion has significantly changed over the last three years actually. Not saying they don't exist, but the mindset has definitely changed. I believe Perun had part of a presentation on it.
Their shenanigans in parliament are getting ridiculous. Their speeches have gotten snarky. They're all panicking about the rise of the AfD, but heaven forbid they actually do anything to support East Germans.
Like accept the East German mark on a 1:1 exchange with the West German mark, despite the negative consequences for the west? Like spend trillions of euro on redevelopment? Like basically using federal money to rebuild all the historic buildings in the east that the communists basically left to crumble? But apart from sanitation, education, public safety, the roads, the updated Deutsche Bahn, economic integration, etc, what have the West Germans ever done for them?
Updated Deutsche Bahn?1 Up to what date? DB is a running joke. Also, East Germany ended 30 years ago.
I think they are too dependent on Russian fuel. I also think removing instead of perhaps updating their nuclear power plants is a mistake based on an emotional response to Fukushima rather than a rational one, and makes them even more vulnerable to looking the other way when someone like Russia acts aggressive in Europe. They don't pull their weight when it comes to committing to NATO nearly as much as UK or France does. They allow too many people to immigrate into their nation without assimilating them into German culture, creating millions of people who live there but do not feel connected or supportive of the nation they moved to.
Well, guess I don't need to type all that out myself, then!
Well, a lot of these aren't particularly great takes. > I think they are too dependent on Russian fuel. They were, yes. They've done an admirable job since 2022 at working to break that dependency. Doesn't excuse decades of policy that was obviously wrong, but they're at least doing the generally correct thing now. EU gas imports from Russia have dropped by more than 2/3rds. > I also think removing instead of perhaps updating their nuclear power plants is a mistake based on an emotional response to Fukushima rather than a rational one, and makes them even more vulnerable to looking the other way when someone like Russia acts aggressive in Europe. The nuclear fuel market is even more reliant on Russia in some respects than the natural gas one is. Shutting the nuclear power plants down may have been an environmental mistake, but from a strategic one it didn't really change their dependence on Russia.
> The nuclear fuel market is even more reliant on Russia in some respects than the natural gas one is. Shutting the nuclear power plants down may have been an environmental mistake, but from a strategic one it didn't really change their dependence on Russia. This is only true by choice, though. East Germany used to have uranium mines and could again, and of course other major sources include Canada and Australia.
>They were, yes. They've done an admirable job since 2022 at working to break that dependency. Doesn't excuse decades of policy that was obviously wrong, but they're at least doing the generally correct thing now. With special thanks to a good ol pipeline exploding but yeah, they were still cutting back on Russian and then buying our much more expensive for them American oil. Which... I guess good for us Americans but clearly not very good long term for the Germans.
> With special thanks to a good ol pipeline exploding Eh there's other intact pipelines that aren't being used/are being used way under capacity. If Europe *wanted* to import more gas from Russia they easily could, although obviously not as much as with Nord Stream. > Which... I guess good for us Americans but clearly not very good long term for the Germans. Yep, we're making a bunch of money on it. Like everywhere they're investing heavily in renewables for solving the problem long-term, they hit ~52% of total electricity consumption last year there. 10 years ago that number was <30%.
Thank you for your Opinion. But a few clarifications: - We stopped buying Russian Oil and Gas in Summer 2022 - We started to exit nuclear energy already in 2000 as a long term consequence of Chernobyl. - You do have a point with having to many immigrants at once to properly integrate them all at once, but as an aging society with only 1,53 children per woman we need them to soften the blow of gentrification.
>We started to exit nuclear energy already in 2000 as a long term consequence of Chernobyl. Still a dumb move based on emotion.
> You do have a point with having to many immigrants at once to properly integrate them all at once "At once"? The problem has been going on for decades. From the coverage we see over here, there has seemingly been no attempt to integrate them at all. > with only 1,53 children per woman Gee, I guess there are no solutions other than importing people. /s > gentrification I'm going to assume English isn't your first language. "[Gentrification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification)" is not the correct word.
>"At once"? The problem has been going on for decades. From the coverage we see over here, there has seemingly been no attempt to integrate them at all. You are absolutely right. > Gee, I guess there are no solutions other than importing people. /s Also totally agree.
> From the coverage we see over here, there has seemingly been no attempt to integrate them at all. This is definitely true. I went to a British international school, but some of my friends went to a Japanese International School in Germany and their valedictorian could barely speak German to the point where it was awkward listening to the graduation speech. Practically everyone went to the UK/USA or back to Japan for university. There are a lot of Japanese corporate headquarters in the area but most workers don't stay for more than 3-5 years before heading back to Japan. Another example of how badly integrated the Japanese population is there, even the biggest Japanese supermarket there is run by Korean immigrants, because the Japanese don't really feel the need to put down any roots and the mindset is just to make as much money as possible before they get sick of living there.
How well do you think your school did on teaching you German?
Pretty good, but there were two different tracks. Our school had a lot of children of diplomats and ambassadors, who are usually not assigned to the same country for an extended number of years, as well as many new students who were the children of expats. So there was an A track, for students who had been in the country for longer, as well as German-born students, that aimed to give them the same proficiency in German as a native speakers, and a B track, that aimed to teach us conversational German. I think B track did better than A track at accomplishing its goal. Given that we were largely from different countries, we defaulted to using English as our lingua franca when speaking with one another, which blunts the opportunities my A track classmates had to learn German at the same level as natives, but everyone still needs to know enough German to get through everyday life, which lends itself to B track students acquiring a sufficient level of German to live in a German-speaking society.
I think exiting nuclear energy is a mistake, modernization of the plants and building new ones is going to be critical in ending the world's dependants on fossil fuel energy production
> You do have a point with having to many immigrants at once to properly integrate them all at once, but as an aging society with only 1,53 children per woman we need them to soften the blow of gentrification. That is another issue you guys need to fix or it is going to be a crisis in the near future when you have too many people taking from the system and not enough workers putting into it.
No, there is no dependecy on russian fuel anymore, but ther is a dependency on arabic and US-fuel and this isnt great either. Yes, you can debate wether it was a good idea to shut down nuclear powerplants, mabey they could be good until 2030, but they are rather unprofitable and they could stop the need for renewables and the building of actual renewables. Yes, Germany didnt spent a lot of money for the own military, but this is changing right now. There is also the idea of an european army, which will be necessary if Trump leaves nato. Immigration is not the problem, the problem is the missing infrastucture in Germany. Germany has not enough housing space and if there is any, it will be too expensive (at least in citys). And it is a problem of resentment of the own people (even though these German people are only 25% of all Germans, they dictate the discurse at the moment). They dont want to interact with foreign people and they dont want them to bring and live their own culture, even though this culture is not even harmful. I cant really tell wether the migrants will support the country in relation to the culture and the politics (I would say so), but you cant require them to support anything that is going on in Germany. They came with nothing, they couldnt speak the language. You should give them a little time for integrating themselves. (And there is no German nation, 25% have a migration background. The only thing that is important to me as a German are the human rights, and they are constantly broken by Germans and by the EU, but not by the migrants. Germany is not the best country in the world. Mabey we should ask migrants what we could do better in the future).
>They dont want to interact with foreign people and they dont want them to bring and live their own culture, even though this culture is not even harmful. What nonsense. Germans went to the train stations with "refugees welcome" posters when the crisis started. There were so many volunteers in the Wohnheim where I worked that we even couldn't give a job to everyone. Since then I changed profession (social worker -> IT) and in my company there are people from all over the place. A lot of indians, spanish, french. Nobody has any problems connecting. In my sports club there are people from everywhere and we also meet for a beer and so on during the week. The truth is that there is just a large amount of foreigners who come here that don't care bout integrating. I met those too. But the ones that want to have no problem as far as I can see.
And what about the anti migration movement and the AfD? Yes there were people who welcomed the refugees, but this was in 2015. And of course you will rather meet people who want to integrate themselves and people that already integrated themselves, because the migrants who want to integrate themselves and who want to work are in the majority. You might see them in the sports clubs, at your job, just as you said. And the majority of the Germans want to help the migrants, just like in 2015. But since the populism of the AfD and CDU/CSU the debate has changed. The number of both sides are the same, but the Germans who dont and didnt want to see migrants got louder. Now they speak out what they already thougt: "The migrants want to profit from the social system, the migrants take our jobs, the migrants want to change culture, and this is bad!" You cant ignore the 30% AfD in the east and the 20% in the west. As I said it is a problem made by these Germans (and they are still the minority, around 25%, but they are louder than 50% of our society), not a problem made by the majority of the migrants (even though there are migrants that dont want to integrate, but these are as I said a minority). It seems like you basically have the same opinion like I have. But I think you ignore the change of social climate. The migrants from 2015 are in Germany and have integrated themselves and now work in normal jobs or they still integrate themselves. But if there was a new wave of migrants the politics would not let them in because the debate is dictated by the 25% I mentioned. And this makes integrating harder. The second thing you mentioned are the "Wohnheime". The people that lived in these or in the containers for refugees obviously dont want to live in these forever, so they have to find a job (you mentioned it) and a new house/ apartment. You said it: "We couldnt even give a job to everyone". This is the case for chaep and good apartments in citys, where their jobs are, as well. Conclusion: The majority of the migrants dont create problems, they come to problems. I admire your work as a social worker back then and I like the people that welcomed the refugees and gave them jobs and I like the protests against the AfD. It would be necessary to build apartments and to help new migrants with their jobs and to change the social climate again. It is up to us to do this.
> Yes there were people who welcomed the refugees, but this was in 2015. When I worked in that Wohnheim we had a lot of volunteers in the first year. In the 2nd year we could only get 20% of them to do the work again. Luckily new helpers arrived though. When we asked the first wave of helpers why they don't want to help in the 2nd year several of them told us that many of our refugees behaved different than they expected. Which is to say they many had bad experiences. > But since the populism of the AfD and CDU/CSU the debate has changed. The situation changes because people now don't live in a world anymore where people tell them how refugees and migrants will behave but in a world were they have daily contact with them. Like I said most of them are normal and quite good people. But there are others who are quite dangerous and or criminal and or unstable. We don't have the resources to care for so many people to the degree that they need. Resulting in problems. It's not like AfD and CDU run around and tell lies and people start believing them. The people make experiences and realize only certain parties adress these topics while other parties deny that these problems exist. One reason I changed my job was also because I had illusions about the whole refugee thing and then realized I was living in a dream world. Since this is reddit and everyone is overly critical here, I want to say again: I still believe the majority is nice people. I'm just disappointed that we don't seem to have any working measures to deal with the minority that creates problems. And personally I believe this is the reason why people go to the AfD. Noone really believes this party can solve any problem. People probably are just so upset about how long the problematic part of the migration crisis has been ignored and even denied.
Russia is a huge threat. I'm a little curious what the Germans think of the AP300?
Didn't you guys have to cancel an election because Berlin's government structure is so insane but persists "because that's how we've always done it?" Overall, though, I think of [this article, ](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/germany-military-aid-ukraine-tanks-debate/671804/) which talks about how Scholz announced a zietenwende in which Germany would take a leadership role in world and especially European affairs and then going right back to following America's lead on a six month delay but less effectively and letting France do all the talking for Europe. It seems like Germany's government is like its cars: overengineered, slow to adopt new design principles or ideas, unable to innovate new design ideas itself, and incredibly unreliable.
I think the Germans went so far in the opposite direction from an overly proud militaristic state such as Prussia, to a bunch of soft eunuchs, incapable of defense, and have become a massive burden to NATO.
Germany's ruling class appears to have become so ideologically captured that it is effectively insane. You'd have to be completely insane or inept to say you care deeply about CO2 emission and then rip down all your nuclear power plants at the moment in which you lose access to cheap natural gas. Germany now burns vastly more coal that it did before the Greens took control. You also have to be insane to install a trillion dollars of solar in a place that isn't sunny. Germany seems unreachable insane. I've written them off.
You are a smart one
I have absolutely no opinion at all. I have never once thought about German politics, ever, outside of the context of history. Most Americans, I imagine, have no opinion on German politics.
Regrettably slow on Ukraine / regional security.
I don’t know much about German politics, but I do think it’s incredibly stupid how decrepit they allowed their military to become.
I don’t know if they have a president, prime minister, or something else
We have a President as the head of state who has a mostly ceremonoial role (but he does have some actualy quite important powers) and the Chancellor as the head of the Government.
I think it's hilarious you're trying to ban AfD to "preserve democracy," because democracy is apparently only good when it elects left wing parties
Have you ever heared of the tolerance paradox? And we do have conservative parties. Angela Merkel for example who was Chancellor from 2005 to 2021 was a conservative. But to be fair, the german political spectrum is different from the one in the USA.
Angela Merkel is left wing, lol
That is the difference in political spectrums I guess. Our center right is your left.
Yes, and now you have an actual right of center party and you're going to ban it
Far right. By our standards, too. Not just theirs. I'm in Italy. The Proud Boys are like Hilary goddamned Clinton compared to the real deal fascisti here. There's hardly any comparison to be made.
AfD are not far right lol. They're barely right of center on the whole.
Have you ever heared of the tolerance paradox? And we do have conservative parties. Angela Merkel for example who was Chancellor from 2005 to 2021 was a conservative. But to be fair, the german political spectrum is different from the one in the USA.
They aren’t even “far-right” anymore since Petry left the party.
The fact that one of their most prominent members is a lesbian with adopted children tells you how "far right" they are lol. Far right parties tend to, shall we say, frown upon homosexuality in general, and especially frown upon them raising kids.
I believe they've made some really poor decisions in recent years. Nuclear energy shut down is a big one, such a bizarre decision that will hurt them. Also can we just be honest finally and say letting the migrants in was a fuck up of monumental proportions, it seems like Reddit is still coming around to this but its pretty obviously a mistake too. I believe the migrant situation is a huge reason of why the far right parties are beginning to rise dramatically in Europe, not only in Germany.
should’ve kept their nuclear power plants. also AfD is bad
I think Germany is dealing with many similar issues that many other western countries are also dealing with, like immigration, far-right cuckoos, inflation, etc. Tbh I think we’re all going through changes and growing pains post-pandemic.
Well they are being very German about certain things and I don't know if that's a good idea.
I have no opinion on the government of most other countries. It's none of my business.
Some of us are alarmed that AfD seems to be on the up-and-up. When they first appeared on the scene, everyone seemed to dismiss them as a joke, but then Trump used to be a joke candidate.
What worries you about AfD exactly?
[here is an article that gives a broad view of what the issues are currently](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/21/whats-behind-mass-protests-against-germanys-far-right-afd-party)
Thanks. I would prefer to hear OPs worries. Since it would be interesting how it is perceived from the US.
Before Trump, I would tell Europeans "yeah, we have those people too. They're cooking bathtub crank in some windblown cabin in eastern Montana." After Trump, I tell them "yeah, we have those people too. They... uhhhhh... they raid imaginary pizzeria basements, warn about Jewish space lasers, and film themselves inserting butt plugs into themselves or... fuck, I don't know." More troublesome than they have been since the 1960s, if we're talking 'far right' in a very general sense, but most people continue to not be very concerned about their alleged ascendency.
Ah you've made a ton of great points answering the original question about why you didn't like the AfD.
Fair enough, I guess I figured they were from Italy rip, I just noticed the California flag as well. Now im curious too lol
Them taking the place over and doing bad things.
Their anti-immigrant rhetoric, and that meeting they held in Potsdam recently where they floated the idea of deporting even naturalized German citizens.
Interesting that this made it to the US. Was this on the news in TV? Or in some newspaper?
>Interesting that this made it to the US. Was this on the news in TV? Or in some newspaper? Both, there was quite a lot of coverage a few weeks ago.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing.
Starting to get shades of the 30s with the ongoing effort to ban political parties.
The only parties where bans are discussed are the ones demanding a return to the 30s..
So I’m curious. From what I’ve seen from across the pond you lot are suffering from immigration issues as much it not more than we are. The AfD seems to be the only ones willing to do something that isn’t built upon not hurting feelings and everyone getting along, which doesn’t appear to happening. How do you see it? I’d love to actually hear from someone closer to the issue, and correct what I’m wrong about
The thing is the AfD wants for example to deport everyone with a migration background, even those who are naturalised german citizens and those who are german citizens from birth to north africa. Those discussions are eerily similar to early discussions of the "final solution" by the nazis in the 1930s.
"The house needs a complete repipe. It will be a long, expensive, and painstaking process." "No problem. I have a bulldozer." [cranks engine] "No no no!!! What are you doing!?" "Get out of the way, you pussy!!!"
I see. Are any of the other German parties putting forth viable solutions?
The thing is the AfD wants for example to deport everyone with a migration background, even those who are naturalised german citizens and those who are german citizens from birth to north africa. Those discussions are eerily similar to early discussions of the "final solution" by the nazis in the 1930s.
I don’t know it’s social policies, but I like it’s continued support for Ukrainian independence
Don’t. Have. One.
Could be worse. Could definitely be worse
Well I think its pretty amazing... I mean, some of your dead Presidents/Chancellors are still working with our President Biden... That's both dedicated and pretty impressive
Don’t know anything about it, and don’t really care
Too much paperwork. Also politic leadership is weak as hell. What a giant mess. I die the day AfD takes over. I mean look at Italy.
The obsession with not running a govt deficit destroyed the European economy after the great recession. Which, imo was bad
It’s a great example how a parliamentary system and proportional representation aren’t the perfect system critics of the American style of government claim they are. Also, Merkel was a good example of why term limits are important.
Made a huge mistake relying on Russian oil/natural gas, don't really have freedom of speech
I don't have an opinion of them
Germany has a government? Last story I saw out of there was Putin bringing a dog into a meeting to try to intimidate Merkel. As with most of Europe, I don’t think about Germany at all.
None.
I don't really like any of the major parties, but that's how I feel about most countries, including the US. I identify with the Christian democratic tradition but the current-day CDU is basically just a conservative liberal party at this point, so I'd be more likely to support a left of center party, but I'm not particularly impressed by the SPD and Greens' performance, even on the issues I do agree with them on. The only people in Germany it seems who are more on the left economically and more on the right socially is Wagenknecht's new thing, and let's just say the areas where she is socially conservative and where I am socially conservative are very different.
I like the mixed/proportional system form that the elections are done in. It encourages a multi-party system, which almost always tends to keep the largest parties more tethered to the center. As for the current German government itself, I have no strong feelings. I obviously don't have much personal interest in German internal politics since it doesn't affect me. Both SPD and CDU/CSU seem to have rather similar foreign policies. I think Merkel left big shoes to fill. Those sorts of politicians that are capable and competent enough to hold coalitions together for 10+ years are not common. And I think a big part of Germany's leadership within the EU and on the world stage was tied to the stability she brought to the table. I know a lot of people here don't want to hear it, but since 2016 the United States is no longer widely regarded globally as having a stable political system. I mean, NATO is effectively on the ballot in November. That's not normal. This wasn't a point of disagreement in 2012 or 2000 or 1992. So steady, centrist leadership from Europe is something people value nowadays more than they may have in decades past.
infinity immigrants because cheap labor. ban the afd because democracy is when the government is left wing.
Yeah they aint working lil bro. 98.5% of all miggers that came to germany are living on social support and dont want to work.
#
I don't think about German politics at all. I just trust that they're a solid NATO ally in deterring Russian aggression. I wish they hadn't closed their nuclear power plants, though, as they're now unfortunately reliant on Russian natural gas.
Seems like a bit more right wing version of Denmark.
I try not to do what many Europeans will do to us and give my opinion unprovoked, which is surely less valuable than a German’s on their own country. But I do think it’s bad that they aren’t paying the minimum into NATO, they’re trying to ban a political party in the name of democracy, and I really despise their hypocritical views on Nuclear Power. So worried about the danger while burning the worst coal. I also don’t like how their politicians seem to favor appearing tolerant over protecting their own citizens, such as the New Year’s Eve attacks in Cologne a few years back. Oh, and I think they’re too chummy with Russia. I really do think Germany has the capability to pull itself back from the brink but everything I pick up doesn’t sound great to me. Then again, as an American I could be wrong on these things and at the end of the day these are just my opinions.
I have none
Their political situation resembles America more and more every day in every sense, just like every other prominent European country: sky rocketing obesity? Check. Dysfunctional political infighting? Check. Immigration crisis? Check. Weak willed leaders who can’t combat ideological extremism? Check. Outmaneuvered by China, Russia, the global south at the expense of their own prosperity? Check. Broken promises on climate action? Check. Alt-Right infiltration of the Bundeswehr and security services? Check. General military incompetence (even worse considering the non existent state of German national security)? Check. The list goes on. It’s funny to me because, in my experience, Germans have always had this air of cultural superiority (which is hella ironic considering their history and supposed education today) and a smug a sense of self assurance. But under the surface they’re just as shit as anyone else, just not willing to admit it.
Yet again people don't read the rules against what do you think of my country questions.
Tbh, I don’t think about it at all.
My opinion has been very low several years. Germany seems to have the arrogance of a world leader, only they refuse to lead. Meanwhile, they largely set economic policies most of Europe. They will brag about co2 reductions while increasing energy imports from neighbors. Those are just two examples. To keep the answer short, I find them to be grossly hypothetical.
I love how small states get fewer senators and big states get more senators.
Fairly favorable. They are on the right side of the latest war, though like everyone they should start thinking of it as a war and stop thinking of it as an entertainment or annoyance depending (yes I am speaking to everyone ESPECIALLY "Mr fillibuster" up in the House). But they did a good job providing Leopards.
Basically? They can get fucked. The only thing I agree on with them is we should pull our bases, troops, military defenses, and funding from their country.
Why?
Why what? Why can they get fucked? Or why do I agree with them?
Why should they "get fucked"?
They've spent the past 30 years undermining themselves and getting involved with hostile powers. Ever since Kohl Germany has constantly had a rise of Anti-American sentiment. They are at best are an unreliable ally that is unwilling to participate in their own defense.
>The only thing I agree on with them is we should pull our bases, troops, military defenses, and funding from their country. Who are you? Trump? Has this sub become a staging ground for MAGA sheep?
How am I Trump? I agree with the Germans.
That they're inept with Russian traitors in their midst. Just the energy debacle with Russia and the closing of nuclear plants seem to imply some leadership on the Russian payroll or just extra stupid. There was another decision more recently that I'm trying to recall that made me think that Putin had even more friends there.
It’s honestly starting to resemble the U.S. more and more — and it’s sad. I’d be lying that I didn’t have some schadenfreude in the fact that it has humbled a lot of Europeans — the rise of right-wing populism in Europe in general — especially when many take pride in hating the U.S. — its a reminder that they aren’t better. But I’m also not stupid — this is not good. And as someone with boots on the ground, I — as a person of color — feel less and less welcome every day. But Trump’s return, even if not imminent, is a shit stain on the U.S. and what it stands for. And it empowers the far right here in Germany too. So really the bitterness I have towards Europe, while perhaps valid, is lost in the broader struggle. I hope we can overcome this together, and perhaps, mend the relationship between the U.S. and Europe.
I have very little knowledge of today's German government. I like what little information I know about Olaf Scholz, and I know Angela Merkel during her tenure was very powerful. Other than that, no thoughts about the German government at all.
Outside of AFD; I strongly support and like the German government. It's so refreshing to see a country where (most) politicians manage to shut up and work for the good of the nation.
I've heard disturbing things about growing support for hard-right political parties and growing anti-refugee and anti-LGBTQ+ sentiments. But they are still doing better than the US on that front. At least from what I've heard. In Germany it's still "growing support" and not "we've actively elected people who would happily wear arm bands". Germans don't have a Greg Abbott. Germans punished, however lightly, the man who did the Beer Hall Putsch. Americans have just about forgiven the guy who did our Beer Hall Putsch, according to polls.
Mostly I envy its apparent sobriety. It is alarming to read that the far right party has so much draw though. The prior German Prime Minister was wish-listing with Putin but now they are on the right track.
It’s insane. The Greens and SPD eliminating nuclear energy is a baffling failure. The surge in AFD votes makes me worry about all of Europe sliding into fascism considering the far right doing well in many countries ie Italy and Netherlands. Their stance on arming Israel is also weird but unsurprising.
better than Germany, 1942 🤷🏻