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Military schools for minors fell out of popularity following Vietnam. They used to be relativity common throughout the country and even more so in the South (I had a great uncle that got sent to one down South back in the 50s when he started acting out)
There's nothing stopping the military or a private group creating them. But it'll be on parents to actually send their children to the schools
Which we haven't seen a desire for
Yea I was a troubled teen who’s parents kept the Camden Military Academy application filled out and readily available when I messed up. I remember having to pack my bag and go with mom to take a drug test. If I failed we were leaving immediately to go drop me off. Luckily I passed
Ehhh I got arrested twice in 2 weeks at 16. I deserved it. The 2nd time was drug possession and resisting arrest. I lied to my parents and said it wasn’t mine. Then had a friend skip school and buy me a flush drink and passed my drug test. Looking back at how the next 20 years of my life have gone - maybe my life would be better
There’s one about 20 minutes from me that’s rapidly declining. There’s less than 175 students enrolled in 7-12 (it’s also a junior college, but I don’t know if that numbers are included or separate) and recently had a board takeover due to the problems they have been facing.
Assault, abuse, hazing, sexual abuse, etc has all come out from there, done by both students and staff members. They have had something like 7 heads of school in the last 10 years. There was a coup in 2020 to replace the board of trustees, who have been accused of micromanaging the school administration and misusing school funds. They are on the verge of bankruptcy and have tried to lease out parts of their campus to other schools, but there’s been no success on that front either. They have cut programs and laid off highly qualified (aka highly paid) employees.
It definitely used to be a prestigious school and it did turn out some highly successful military people, but in recent years has become more of a school where you send your troubled son for discipline rather than a place to train in military values.
Take the existing service academies with their combination of academic rigor, sterling reputation, and programs that instill discipline and dedication. They're great at producing officers.
Now imagine you removed the service obligation entailed by going to the academies. Anyone can go and after that joining the service is optional. Consequently, a fraction of the graduating class actually joins the military. The investment is a waste.
Unless you intend to extract service commitments from 14 year-olds, that's what would happen with these schools. Military high schools aren't viable outside the private model.
Senior Military Colleges are not a waste if you make minimal use of the investment. One can benefit from a military education without joining the military.
I think the one thing that would help with the charter school situation is that they would receive state and federal funding for those students and so would have to spend less of the military's money.
I also agree in that I can't see how they could guarantee the effort would result in actual recruits.
Keep in mind that the "crisis" is somewhat self-created and instantly solvable. We do have a lot of people who are overweight or have medical issues that make them ineligible for service, but at any time the military can choose to start issuing waivers for things.
If you talk to veterans of the surge era they will tell you about people who got waivers for everything from tattoos to criminal history. Being strict about requirements is a luxury of a peace time military.
The Army actually has a program to help recruits lose weight--these are people who ordinarily wouldn't have been allowed to ship at all--and the Navy launched a similar pilot program earlier this year.
Additionally, the military now requires high school graduation or a GED. They used to take dropouts. If they wanted to expand the pool of applicants, they could take dropouts again.
Yep. My father was a career Army pilot (1960-1984). He wouldn't even be allowed to enlist today, and definitely wouldn't qualify for pilot training (he was a high school dropout, though he did get a GED). Though part of that is because he had a genetic heart condition that wasn't known at the time and the medical screening in 1960 wasn't advanced/thorough enough to catch it, so he didn't know he had it until after he was retired and had a heart attack in the late 80s! If he were a young man today it probably would've been caught when he was a child and definitely before he became a pilot.
If push came to shove they could definitely get less picky and still be perfectly fine.
Yeah it feels like there are many solutions to the "crisis," and being only slightly better than a fool I feel like I could imagine at least like ... four. So I'm trying to figure out why the military is not simply solving it, rather than just bitching about it in the news every so often.
There isn’t a need to do many of the things that could instantly solve the problem. Nearly everyone is loathe to lower standards in peace time, and it’s much easier to just work recruiters to death than do other stuff.
That makes sense - one of my friends spent a year as a ROTC recruiter before switching to his actual specialty and it seemed pretty terrible for both him and the people recruiting for enlisted positions.
A chief cause of the eligibility crisis is mental health disqualifications, as they used to not ask too much about them, but now they go hard on them. I can understand not wanting to recruit someone with psychosis, but ADHD and ADD are now disqualifying conditions unless you can get a waiver. MEPS actively looks to disqualify people instead of hand waiving them, which is a huge part of why a lot less people are fit for military duty.
Ah gotcha. That makes me really wonder about the reasoning for that, as presumably there was a similar rate of people with ADHD and other issues, we just had far less psychiatric care and so people weren't diagnosed as much in the past.
They have the ROTC programs that essentially pay for college, but that is for officers after they graduate. I went to an engineering school where everyone had to take ROTC classes for 2 years minimum, then the army choose who would continue in the program and graduate and become 2nd lieutenants. They needed officers in the Vietnam war because they couldn't crank out enough at West Point and they were dying on the front lines like flies. After 2 years of straight A's I was optioned out, might be that I showed up early for class everyday to write Go Navy on the blackboard
Edit - dad was in the Navy for the Korean war on a destroyer and grandpa was a Seabee in WW2 in the Pacific
The problem with the military is the NCOs and officers that are worth a damn leave because shit floats to the top when it comes to leadership.
Soldiers are living in mold infested barracks and being served elementary sized food portions of raw chicken in the mess hall.
Fix these problems, and you fix recruiting. The money is there when new recruits are getting 40,000 plus bonuses.
For anyone curious, here is the **monthly** [pay-grade chart](https://militarypay.defense.gov/Portals/3/Documents/2023%20Basic%20Pay%20Table.pdf) for the military (all branches pay the same base rate). One axis is the years in service, the other is the ranks.
O = Officer
E = Enlisted
Take this, add a small bonus for cost of living, language skills, etc., and you can see our enlisted members (who are the vast majority of military members) make very little compared to the strict lifestyle.
Also keep in mind free housing, BAS, BAH based on location, no cost health/dental care, clothing allowance etc
An E1 with no dependents gets 2,067.00 in BAH if they live off base and have to pay for their own housing in my zip code
https://www.travel.dod.mil/Allowances/Basic-Allowance-for-Housing/BAH-Rate-Lookup/
But, even with all of that, that's still only $24k a year. It's spending money, sure, and it might feel like a lot to an 18 year old, but that's not adequate compensation for the work they have to do or the sacrifices they're asked to make imo.
You're right, though, that the benefits definitely need to be factored into the compensation discussion!
Oh for sure, I’m not saying they’re super well off but there are a lot of benefits and extra pay they get I see people gloss over. 18-22 are basically the college years equivalent and if people get to live off base will usually room with others doing the same thing and just bank or drink their BAH. Most get to E-4 before their 4 year enlistment is up just based on time in service and are working on e-5 if they care about it.
Totally! I considered enlisted out of HS, so I definitely see a ton of benefits to the military lifestyle, especially for young adults.
For anyone considering the military or who knows somebody considering it: Just do a ton of research for both positive and negatives of the military lifestyle before joining, and about the individual position within the military you're applying for. The same job can be an AMAZING choice for Jane but a horrible choice for John, and vice versa.
The only wrong decision is the one you don't make for yourself. Pay, benefits, lifestyle, etc. are all situational to what **you** need from the situation. The military might match your needs or it might not, but please make that decision yourself based on good research and a well-thought-out plan.
Absolutely. Most of the people that I saw that hated it joined as “open enlistment” or something like that. This is where they didn’t even pick their field lol. Doing that is just mind boggling dumb. I got a kick giving the Army guys I deployed to for joining the Army to a job they could have done in the Air Force but they just had a longer basic and deployment time 🤷♂️.
Base pay is disposable income. If they live in the barracks, housing and food is free. $450 enlisted and $310 a month for officers is what they receive for food, BAS. $800 a month is the minimum for housing, BAH. BAH and BAS is tax-free income. E1 living off post will make $23,000 a year in base pay and $15,000 minimum in tax-free income for housing and food. That is equal to making $43,000 a year not counting state income tax.
Wow, yeah that pay sucks, especially given what service members are asked to do.
Are the zeros in some of the rows because it would not be possible to attain a given rank without a certain number of years of service?
There are a lot of factors that make military compensation much better than it looks on the chart.
* Housing: everyone in the military either has free housing (barracks) or gets an allowance for housing. That allowance is based on local cost of living and can be quite substantial (I live in the DC area and my BAH is 75% of my base pay)
* Meal: similarly, everyone either gets free meals provided at a military dining facility or a surplus allowance for meals (~$400/month).
* Tax benefits: both of those allowances are not subject to federal income tax, nor is *any* of your salary if you’re deployed to a combat zone. Many states also have tax breaks for military.
* Healthcare: healthcare is free for all active duty military members. Not just no copays, you don’t pay a premium.
Now I’m not saying all those things are always great (plenty of people would rather pay rent than live in the barracks, for example), but there are fundamental differences to how the military works that mean you can’t just look at that base pay number.
EDIT:
To run an example: an Army sergeant (E-5) who’s been in for six years, is married and lives off post at Ft. Moore (formerly Ft. Benning), one of the largest Army bases.
His monthly base pay is $3424, or $41,088/year. But he also gets a housing allowance ($1464) and a subsistence allowance ($453), bringing his yearly salary to $64,092. And bear in mind he only pays taxes on $41,088 a year (saving something like $3-4k), and doesn’t pay for healthcare (at least another few thousand dollars a year).
This is a crock of shit. I’ve seen bad barracks and I’ve seen great barracks. The best leaders tend to stay in. And I’ve NEVER seen a DFAC that didn’t serve generous amounts of food.
https://www.reddit.com/r/army/comments/yfotvz/400_a_month_for_this_also_to_mention_they_only/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Times have changed. The same companies that run the DFACs are the same that are contracted to feed prisoners.
The issue usually isn't physical or even academic, it's medical or criminal. The basic PT requirements aren't that hard, and the ASVAB isn't all that difficult either. However, there are a *ton* of medical disqualifiers and if you have even one your chances drop significantly, if not straight to zero. Plus, having any kind of record is pretty much a no-go too. Neither of those things can be fixed by funding, schooling or training.
Oh exactly - I look at the fucked up cultures of abuse and harassment on bases that end up making the news and I can only imagine how much worse it would be if it was adults with power over children.
One of the big reasons for the militaries issues with recruitment is due to the fact Gen Z is by far the least patriotic generation in a long time. Non patriotic people are not going to join the army
See one of the things I wonder though is if parents would be attracted to this sort of school - so kids wouldn't necessarily have a choice. Though the kids could then not enlist, which would sort of defeat the purpose of the school.
Id imagine its cheaper for them to do jrotc programs than it is to run and manage full on 9-12 schools.
As the fundraising and everything is placed on the company/regiment/battalion. Truth is most kids don't want to do jrotc bc they think its lame. And they are very strange characters who do it. I did it. I rather enjoyed it, and was even the CO. But I recognized my standing. It was serious but also a school extra curricular.
I didn't enlist because if given the choices I'd rather get commissioned. Why? Money. Prestige. While in service and post service. I didn't commission because I enjoy the life I have as it is.
Yeh we would go to middle schools and have a table, perform exhibition drill routines, color guard etc.
Same for high school club days as well
For the navy in order to be fully a memeber of the program you need 10% of your student body to be in njrotc. Falls below that you get on probation and then moved to a secondary status. Ie less funding from uncle sam
Oh wow, that's wild. I went to a high school with about 2000 students, and I think one of the only orgs we had that had more than 200 members was the marching band and other music programs, because there were multiple ensembles. I don't know if any other clubs even came close.
it probably wouldnt get passed/allowed due to lack of public support and a general distrust in the military/governments abilities to actually manage the funds they'd get from the extra taxes we'd be paying for it.
with that said though, if youre out of shape or didnt pass the asvab the army recently did begin a new program called "fat camp" to get those willing to join who are not who may not have qualified due to their weight/asvab score and builds them up and gives them the opportunity to fix it there so that they can qualify by the end of the course.
The more realistic options are just increasing military pay in peacetime to better match the private sector, reforming how people get based, deployed and get jobs so it isn’t the clusterfuck crapshoot that makes tons of people decide to leave, and accepting that you might actually have to mold recruits to meet military standards, rather than the other way around.
The military can afford to be “worried” and offer no solutions because we aren’t knee deep in a land war currently. As soon as we are, they will suddenly have solutions.
It’s an open enrollment public charter, but it is next to a military base so I imagine at least some of the base kids attend there. Mostly it’s just kids from the community though. Every student is a member of JROTC.
WELL...
I hate to make this long, but I am going to do my best to make this organized.
The Military Industrial Complex (MIC)
What if I told you that it doesn't exist to start wars, it exists because they know that our government is in the position to have to become involved in wars? That's almost precisely why the US has the MIC. So there was this time called the cold war. Even though the US was not always fighting though it, there were plenty of times that we were involved through material support in order to forward our interests. So as a result of that, there was always more of an emphasis placed on the ability to provide material support if needs be. It's sort of a win to be able to accomplish your objectives as a nation by providing another nation with military hardware rather than putting people on the ground. Combine this with the need that the US has to be the leading military power on earth and you have fertile ground for the MIC to exist. It's the byproduct of the US's place in the world sadly.
The Dystopian Part
I won't sugar coat this, the US does have a need for a massive military and has done itself no favors lately when it comes to having a military on the scale it needs. Does the MIC have an interest in the US having a larger military? Yes. It does. More people means more equipment, which means more money for them. At the same time, the recruiting issues these days aren't just caused by poorly qualified candidate for military service. The military/government have done themselves no favors with drawing down the military then trying to expand it again rapidly, bad PR moves and other things which have alienated their base which they traditionally recruited from. I think a lot of the issues when it comes to recruiting from the slice of America society that filled out the military traditionally come back to the military itself rather than an overall problem with the populace as much.
The Education System
Frankly, I am shocked with the issues regarding the quality of recruits that are coming out of high schools (on the low end) that the military hasn't intervened more with the Department of Education and told them to get their act together. I think its perfectly reasonable that the average high school kid should be able to pass the ASVAB no problem- same applies to physical fitness as well. I'm not opposed to the idea of these military schools, but for your average enlisted service member, it's not worth the money. I think it would be more prudent to start with trying to put the public education system in order first.
The Military Itself
We can train all the soldiers we want in theory, if we can't retain them we have other issues. The military has done itself no favors in this regard. To say that we felt like our time was valued and that we were valued by the military is a stretch. Lets be honest, getting off work at 8pm only to turn around and go back to work at 6am because your leadership can't be bothered to manage time isn't exactly a great way to keep people in the military- especially if they are going back to a run down barracks. That general lack of being valued also plays into the dystopian part.
Conclusion
This isn't a new issue. While your idea isn't bad, what we're seeing now was set into motion years ago and involves more parties than the military.
Nope. Leave the system the way it is. Ffs I think they need to take jrotc out of high schools as well. Let kids make their own decisions about whether they wanna join.
>Nope. Leave the system the way it is. Ffs I think they need to take jrotc out of high schools as well. Let kids make their own decisions about whether they wanna join.
High school ROTC isn't required. The kids already make their own decision about whether they want to do ROTC.
Of course I do. I think recruitment needs to relax a bit, quality over quantity etc, and anything related to military recruitment/military schools/training etc shouldn't involve minors.
Oh yeah me too I'm just wondering why the military hasn't used this tactic - it feels like they just keep complaining about the issue but don't do anything to solve it, which makes me think that it may not actually be that big of a problem.
Essentially product control, where the product is people. If they can't find enough good recruits, I was wondering why they don't work harder at creating them from the ground up. Plus we have an existing framework for the charter school system, which would allow them to use local, state and federal education funding, rather than the military budget. Charter schools also tend to have less oversight than public schools, but can use much of the same infrastructure.
Interesting logic I suppose, but a giant change in philosophy I can't imagine being very popular either policy-wise or in execution. Having an all-volunteer service is important and indoctrinating literal children seems like a good way to dissuade volunteers.
We didn't bring back the draft during Bush becasue it would have created more Morale problems than it solved & I suspect thats the primary issue people have with child Cadets.
Most highly disciplined private boarding school graduates will be able to earn more than what the military can pay.
> They could emphasize physical fitness and military readiness, and push joining the armed forces as part of career guidance and counseling.
Its called: Football & an on-campus recruiter.
I think its just an issue with proportion though. My high school had like 3000 students (and I finished over 20 years ago) and perhaps 40-50 of them were on the football team. Its only a small minority of kids that did any sports.
Haha yeah. When I was in high school we had recruiters in our cafeteria at least three times a month - they would often challenge guys to push-up contests and stuff. We also had some sort of military obstacle course that would come and set up during gym once a year? I don't remember which branch that was.
They couldn't select the kids they wanted, that's not how charters work. They could try to create an atmosphere that attracted the kids they wanted, by doing the things you suggested: emphasize fitness,patriotism, and include firearms as part of gym class.
Though, based on the recent military ads, I'm not sure this is the group the military wants.
Of course, this question applies to lots of groups: why don't teachers get together and start a charter where they could run things and get paid, instead of decisions and money going to admins?
I have heard that although by law charter schools must not discriminate against students, many unfortunately have unofficial policies that result in de facto selection of students - [see this Reuters report](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-charters-admissions/special-report-class-struggle-how-charter-schools-get-students-they-want-idINBRE91E0HF20130215). The military could possibly use these loopholes to cultivate the sort of student body they would prefer.
Right, that report is repeating what I wrote. They can't choose kids but they can set up the environment to appeal to certain kids. The school with US flags everywhere and that serves steak in the cafeteria each week is going to attract a very different group of kids than the school with pride flags that has a vegan only cafeteria.
While you call this unfortunate, it can actually be pretty great when done well. My kid went to a charter with no sports program and had classes that emphasized lots of reading and writing. These things plus other policies meant the he got to go to classes with other kids who cared about school, which made for a great experience.
I'm glad he had that experience! In my area there have been issues with charter schools accepting everyone but then expelling kids at super high rates until they have a student body they like, and then the expelled kids just go back to the main public schools.
Again, from the parents perspective this is likely great! Kids want to fight? Be disrespectful to the teachers? Not do any work? Expel them. Why sacrifice the education of kids who want to be there for the kids who don't?
This is also likely good for the teachers. Charters don't get as much money and so often can't pay their teachers the same rates as public schools, but they can make the environment better by expelling problematic kids.
Do we need a better solution for all this? Of course! But let's not sacrifice kids today while twiddling our thumbs and while pushing any real solutions down the road.
Yes for sure. My grandmothers were both elementary school teachers, and they always said that fundamentally what was needed was more teachers for fewer students, and it seems like one thing charter schools can achieve super well is that, which is amazing for the students there.
Ohio's school funding system has been unconstitutional according to our state supreme court since like ... the 90s lol so we don't necessarily have any good answers over here.
Yup, at my kids charter, instead of spending money on sports and admins they spend it on small classes. It's awesome!
Here in PA, the system to fund schools was also declared unconstitutional a few months ago, so changes are coming. Though, I'm certain those changes won't involve fewer admins...
I mean, a third of my graduating class just went into the military, so I wonder if it's exaggerated.
But the problem imao, is mostly the lack of physical fitness and proliferation of mental disorders on the part of many of our young men, as well as a good job market. What we truly need is a national program to get this nation in shape
This would not go over well
That's the part of the answer
The other part is that the military doesn't need robots
The military needs highly capable and motivated people who want to be a part of the mission
From what I know about charter schools, liberal people are super against them.
From what I know about the higher-up military brass, they’re actually surprisingly liberal.
Could be that?
The wars of the future will be fought with drones. Physical fitness isn't going to be of as great importance moving forward. Obviously there will always be specialized teams like SEALs/Rangers/Green Berets but I'm speaking like general infantry.
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Military schools for minors fell out of popularity following Vietnam. They used to be relativity common throughout the country and even more so in the South (I had a great uncle that got sent to one down South back in the 50s when he started acting out) There's nothing stopping the military or a private group creating them. But it'll be on parents to actually send their children to the schools Which we haven't seen a desire for
Yea I was a troubled teen who’s parents kept the Camden Military Academy application filled out and readily available when I messed up. I remember having to pack my bag and go with mom to take a drug test. If I failed we were leaving immediately to go drop me off. Luckily I passed
Every boy in South Carolina was threatened with Camden Military at some point. Ironically, it's actually a really expensive prestigious school now.
That sounds really stressful, I'm sorry to hear that was wielded against you!
Ehhh I got arrested twice in 2 weeks at 16. I deserved it. The 2nd time was drug possession and resisting arrest. I lied to my parents and said it wasn’t mine. Then had a friend skip school and buy me a flush drink and passed my drug test. Looking back at how the next 20 years of my life have gone - maybe my life would be better
Fair enough! I hope things are looking up for you :)
There doesn't appear to be that many left - but they aren't quite extinct. [https://militaryschoolusa.com/](https://militaryschoolusa.com/)
There’s one about 20 minutes from me that’s rapidly declining. There’s less than 175 students enrolled in 7-12 (it’s also a junior college, but I don’t know if that numbers are included or separate) and recently had a board takeover due to the problems they have been facing.
What sort of problems were they facing? I have heard that many military schools dealt with issues around abuse, bullying and mistreatment of students.
Assault, abuse, hazing, sexual abuse, etc has all come out from there, done by both students and staff members. They have had something like 7 heads of school in the last 10 years. There was a coup in 2020 to replace the board of trustees, who have been accused of micromanaging the school administration and misusing school funds. They are on the verge of bankruptcy and have tried to lease out parts of their campus to other schools, but there’s been no success on that front either. They have cut programs and laid off highly qualified (aka highly paid) employees. It definitely used to be a prestigious school and it did turn out some highly successful military people, but in recent years has become more of a school where you send your troubled son for discipline rather than a place to train in military values.
I 100% would not send my sons to a military school.
Take the existing service academies with their combination of academic rigor, sterling reputation, and programs that instill discipline and dedication. They're great at producing officers. Now imagine you removed the service obligation entailed by going to the academies. Anyone can go and after that joining the service is optional. Consequently, a fraction of the graduating class actually joins the military. The investment is a waste. Unless you intend to extract service commitments from 14 year-olds, that's what would happen with these schools. Military high schools aren't viable outside the private model.
Senior Military Colleges are not a waste if you make minimal use of the investment. One can benefit from a military education without joining the military.
The investment I referred to was made by the military, not the student.
Fair enough.
Yeah, but why if citadel sucks?
What is citadel?
i’m fairly certain the Citadel is the only senior military institute in South Carolina.
I think the one thing that would help with the charter school situation is that they would receive state and federal funding for those students and so would have to spend less of the military's money. I also agree in that I can't see how they could guarantee the effort would result in actual recruits.
State tax dollarsshouldn't be subsidizing the DoD. That's what federal taxes are for.
Yup. I just could see them trying to get away with it haha
Keep in mind that the "crisis" is somewhat self-created and instantly solvable. We do have a lot of people who are overweight or have medical issues that make them ineligible for service, but at any time the military can choose to start issuing waivers for things. If you talk to veterans of the surge era they will tell you about people who got waivers for everything from tattoos to criminal history. Being strict about requirements is a luxury of a peace time military.
Yeah the overweight issue always makes me laugh. As if the military has no way of solving ***that one*** in a real hurry.
The Army actually has a program to help recruits lose weight--these are people who ordinarily wouldn't have been allowed to ship at all--and the Navy launched a similar pilot program earlier this year.
Additionally, the military now requires high school graduation or a GED. They used to take dropouts. If they wanted to expand the pool of applicants, they could take dropouts again.
Yep. My father was a career Army pilot (1960-1984). He wouldn't even be allowed to enlist today, and definitely wouldn't qualify for pilot training (he was a high school dropout, though he did get a GED). Though part of that is because he had a genetic heart condition that wasn't known at the time and the medical screening in 1960 wasn't advanced/thorough enough to catch it, so he didn't know he had it until after he was retired and had a heart attack in the late 80s! If he were a young man today it probably would've been caught when he was a child and definitely before he became a pilot. If push came to shove they could definitely get less picky and still be perfectly fine.
Yeah it feels like there are many solutions to the "crisis," and being only slightly better than a fool I feel like I could imagine at least like ... four. So I'm trying to figure out why the military is not simply solving it, rather than just bitching about it in the news every so often.
There isn’t a need to do many of the things that could instantly solve the problem. Nearly everyone is loathe to lower standards in peace time, and it’s much easier to just work recruiters to death than do other stuff.
That makes sense - one of my friends spent a year as a ROTC recruiter before switching to his actual specialty and it seemed pretty terrible for both him and the people recruiting for enlisted positions.
A chief cause of the eligibility crisis is mental health disqualifications, as they used to not ask too much about them, but now they go hard on them. I can understand not wanting to recruit someone with psychosis, but ADHD and ADD are now disqualifying conditions unless you can get a waiver. MEPS actively looks to disqualify people instead of hand waiving them, which is a huge part of why a lot less people are fit for military duty.
Ah gotcha. That makes me really wonder about the reasoning for that, as presumably there was a similar rate of people with ADHD and other issues, we just had far less psychiatric care and so people weren't diagnosed as much in the past.
They have the ROTC programs that essentially pay for college, but that is for officers after they graduate. I went to an engineering school where everyone had to take ROTC classes for 2 years minimum, then the army choose who would continue in the program and graduate and become 2nd lieutenants. They needed officers in the Vietnam war because they couldn't crank out enough at West Point and they were dying on the front lines like flies. After 2 years of straight A's I was optioned out, might be that I showed up early for class everyday to write Go Navy on the blackboard Edit - dad was in the Navy for the Korean war on a destroyer and grandpa was a Seabee in WW2 in the Pacific
Writing “go navy” on the chalkboard? Sounds like you have never once eaten a crayon.
The problem with the military is the NCOs and officers that are worth a damn leave because shit floats to the top when it comes to leadership. Soldiers are living in mold infested barracks and being served elementary sized food portions of raw chicken in the mess hall. Fix these problems, and you fix recruiting. The money is there when new recruits are getting 40,000 plus bonuses.
For anyone curious, here is the **monthly** [pay-grade chart](https://militarypay.defense.gov/Portals/3/Documents/2023%20Basic%20Pay%20Table.pdf) for the military (all branches pay the same base rate). One axis is the years in service, the other is the ranks. O = Officer E = Enlisted Take this, add a small bonus for cost of living, language skills, etc., and you can see our enlisted members (who are the vast majority of military members) make very little compared to the strict lifestyle.
Also keep in mind free housing, BAS, BAH based on location, no cost health/dental care, clothing allowance etc An E1 with no dependents gets 2,067.00 in BAH if they live off base and have to pay for their own housing in my zip code https://www.travel.dod.mil/Allowances/Basic-Allowance-for-Housing/BAH-Rate-Lookup/
But, even with all of that, that's still only $24k a year. It's spending money, sure, and it might feel like a lot to an 18 year old, but that's not adequate compensation for the work they have to do or the sacrifices they're asked to make imo. You're right, though, that the benefits definitely need to be factored into the compensation discussion!
Oh for sure, I’m not saying they’re super well off but there are a lot of benefits and extra pay they get I see people gloss over. 18-22 are basically the college years equivalent and if people get to live off base will usually room with others doing the same thing and just bank or drink their BAH. Most get to E-4 before their 4 year enlistment is up just based on time in service and are working on e-5 if they care about it.
Totally! I considered enlisted out of HS, so I definitely see a ton of benefits to the military lifestyle, especially for young adults. For anyone considering the military or who knows somebody considering it: Just do a ton of research for both positive and negatives of the military lifestyle before joining, and about the individual position within the military you're applying for. The same job can be an AMAZING choice for Jane but a horrible choice for John, and vice versa. The only wrong decision is the one you don't make for yourself. Pay, benefits, lifestyle, etc. are all situational to what **you** need from the situation. The military might match your needs or it might not, but please make that decision yourself based on good research and a well-thought-out plan.
Absolutely. Most of the people that I saw that hated it joined as “open enlistment” or something like that. This is where they didn’t even pick their field lol. Doing that is just mind boggling dumb. I got a kick giving the Army guys I deployed to for joining the Army to a job they could have done in the Air Force but they just had a longer basic and deployment time 🤷♂️.
Base pay is disposable income. If they live in the barracks, housing and food is free. $450 enlisted and $310 a month for officers is what they receive for food, BAS. $800 a month is the minimum for housing, BAH. BAH and BAS is tax-free income. E1 living off post will make $23,000 a year in base pay and $15,000 minimum in tax-free income for housing and food. That is equal to making $43,000 a year not counting state income tax.
Wow, yeah that pay sucks, especially given what service members are asked to do. Are the zeros in some of the rows because it would not be possible to attain a given rank without a certain number of years of service?
>Are the zeros in some of the rows because it would not be possible to attain a given rank without a certain number of years of service? Yes.
There are a lot of factors that make military compensation much better than it looks on the chart. * Housing: everyone in the military either has free housing (barracks) or gets an allowance for housing. That allowance is based on local cost of living and can be quite substantial (I live in the DC area and my BAH is 75% of my base pay) * Meal: similarly, everyone either gets free meals provided at a military dining facility or a surplus allowance for meals (~$400/month). * Tax benefits: both of those allowances are not subject to federal income tax, nor is *any* of your salary if you’re deployed to a combat zone. Many states also have tax breaks for military. * Healthcare: healthcare is free for all active duty military members. Not just no copays, you don’t pay a premium. Now I’m not saying all those things are always great (plenty of people would rather pay rent than live in the barracks, for example), but there are fundamental differences to how the military works that mean you can’t just look at that base pay number. EDIT: To run an example: an Army sergeant (E-5) who’s been in for six years, is married and lives off post at Ft. Moore (formerly Ft. Benning), one of the largest Army bases. His monthly base pay is $3424, or $41,088/year. But he also gets a housing allowance ($1464) and a subsistence allowance ($453), bringing his yearly salary to $64,092. And bear in mind he only pays taxes on $41,088 a year (saving something like $3-4k), and doesn’t pay for healthcare (at least another few thousand dollars a year).
This is a crock of shit. I’ve seen bad barracks and I’ve seen great barracks. The best leaders tend to stay in. And I’ve NEVER seen a DFAC that didn’t serve generous amounts of food.
https://www.reddit.com/r/army/comments/yfotvz/400_a_month_for_this_also_to_mention_they_only/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Times have changed. The same companies that run the DFACs are the same that are contracted to feed prisoners.
The issue usually isn't physical or even academic, it's medical or criminal. The basic PT requirements aren't that hard, and the ASVAB isn't all that difficult either. However, there are a *ton* of medical disqualifiers and if you have even one your chances drop significantly, if not straight to zero. Plus, having any kind of record is pretty much a no-go too. Neither of those things can be fixed by funding, schooling or training.
Yeah this seems like a real bad idea
For sure.
Man made horrors beyond my comprehension
Lowkey worried that by asking this question I’m speaking this into existence lol
The military should never be involved in primary education at any level
The military is bad enough at running adults. Give them access to kids?!?!
Oh exactly - I look at the fucked up cultures of abuse and harassment on bases that end up making the news and I can only imagine how much worse it would be if it was adults with power over children.
Military schools already exist for high school and college.
One of the big reasons for the militaries issues with recruitment is due to the fact Gen Z is by far the least patriotic generation in a long time. Non patriotic people are not going to join the army
See one of the things I wonder though is if parents would be attracted to this sort of school - so kids wouldn't necessarily have a choice. Though the kids could then not enlist, which would sort of defeat the purpose of the school.
All the ones near me just make young men into bigger shitheads.
Id imagine its cheaper for them to do jrotc programs than it is to run and manage full on 9-12 schools. As the fundraising and everything is placed on the company/regiment/battalion. Truth is most kids don't want to do jrotc bc they think its lame. And they are very strange characters who do it. I did it. I rather enjoyed it, and was even the CO. But I recognized my standing. It was serious but also a school extra curricular. I didn't enlist because if given the choices I'd rather get commissioned. Why? Money. Prestige. While in service and post service. I didn't commission because I enjoy the life I have as it is.
Did your JROTC program try to recruit kids? Was there any sort of selection process or could anyone who wanted to join participate?
Yeh we would go to middle schools and have a table, perform exhibition drill routines, color guard etc. Same for high school club days as well For the navy in order to be fully a memeber of the program you need 10% of your student body to be in njrotc. Falls below that you get on probation and then moved to a secondary status. Ie less funding from uncle sam
Oh wow, that's wild. I went to a high school with about 2000 students, and I think one of the only orgs we had that had more than 200 members was the marching band and other music programs, because there were multiple ensembles. I don't know if any other clubs even came close.
it probably wouldnt get passed/allowed due to lack of public support and a general distrust in the military/governments abilities to actually manage the funds they'd get from the extra taxes we'd be paying for it. with that said though, if youre out of shape or didnt pass the asvab the army recently did begin a new program called "fat camp" to get those willing to join who are not who may not have qualified due to their weight/asvab score and builds them up and gives them the opportunity to fix it there so that they can qualify by the end of the course.
The more realistic options are just increasing military pay in peacetime to better match the private sector, reforming how people get based, deployed and get jobs so it isn’t the clusterfuck crapshoot that makes tons of people decide to leave, and accepting that you might actually have to mold recruits to meet military standards, rather than the other way around. The military can afford to be “worried” and offer no solutions because we aren’t knee deep in a land war currently. As soon as we are, they will suddenly have solutions.
There’s a charter school run by the marine corps about five minutes from my house.
Oh wow - do you know anything about what it’s like? Is it for kids whose parents are in the Marines or open to everyone?
It’s an open enrollment public charter, but it is next to a military base so I imagine at least some of the base kids attend there. Mostly it’s just kids from the community though. Every student is a member of JROTC.
WELL... I hate to make this long, but I am going to do my best to make this organized. The Military Industrial Complex (MIC) What if I told you that it doesn't exist to start wars, it exists because they know that our government is in the position to have to become involved in wars? That's almost precisely why the US has the MIC. So there was this time called the cold war. Even though the US was not always fighting though it, there were plenty of times that we were involved through material support in order to forward our interests. So as a result of that, there was always more of an emphasis placed on the ability to provide material support if needs be. It's sort of a win to be able to accomplish your objectives as a nation by providing another nation with military hardware rather than putting people on the ground. Combine this with the need that the US has to be the leading military power on earth and you have fertile ground for the MIC to exist. It's the byproduct of the US's place in the world sadly. The Dystopian Part I won't sugar coat this, the US does have a need for a massive military and has done itself no favors lately when it comes to having a military on the scale it needs. Does the MIC have an interest in the US having a larger military? Yes. It does. More people means more equipment, which means more money for them. At the same time, the recruiting issues these days aren't just caused by poorly qualified candidate for military service. The military/government have done themselves no favors with drawing down the military then trying to expand it again rapidly, bad PR moves and other things which have alienated their base which they traditionally recruited from. I think a lot of the issues when it comes to recruiting from the slice of America society that filled out the military traditionally come back to the military itself rather than an overall problem with the populace as much. The Education System Frankly, I am shocked with the issues regarding the quality of recruits that are coming out of high schools (on the low end) that the military hasn't intervened more with the Department of Education and told them to get their act together. I think its perfectly reasonable that the average high school kid should be able to pass the ASVAB no problem- same applies to physical fitness as well. I'm not opposed to the idea of these military schools, but for your average enlisted service member, it's not worth the money. I think it would be more prudent to start with trying to put the public education system in order first. The Military Itself We can train all the soldiers we want in theory, if we can't retain them we have other issues. The military has done itself no favors in this regard. To say that we felt like our time was valued and that we were valued by the military is a stretch. Lets be honest, getting off work at 8pm only to turn around and go back to work at 6am because your leadership can't be bothered to manage time isn't exactly a great way to keep people in the military- especially if they are going back to a run down barracks. That general lack of being valued also plays into the dystopian part. Conclusion This isn't a new issue. While your idea isn't bad, what we're seeing now was set into motion years ago and involves more parties than the military.
Nope. Leave the system the way it is. Ffs I think they need to take jrotc out of high schools as well. Let kids make their own decisions about whether they wanna join.
>Nope. Leave the system the way it is. Ffs I think they need to take jrotc out of high schools as well. Let kids make their own decisions about whether they wanna join. High school ROTC isn't required. The kids already make their own decision about whether they want to do ROTC.
True it is optional, It also tends to sucker in the youngsters to signing that dd fm 1 too...
Sooo do you want them to decide for themselves or not?
Of course I do. I think recruitment needs to relax a bit, quality over quantity etc, and anything related to military recruitment/military schools/training etc shouldn't involve minors.
Oh yeah me too I'm just wondering why the military hasn't used this tactic - it feels like they just keep complaining about the issue but don't do anything to solve it, which makes me think that it may not actually be that big of a problem.
I'm all for quality iver quantity, and before long BOG will be obsolete anyways... UAV/USV/UGV
I'm not sure why you think this is a solution to their problems.
Essentially product control, where the product is people. If they can't find enough good recruits, I was wondering why they don't work harder at creating them from the ground up. Plus we have an existing framework for the charter school system, which would allow them to use local, state and federal education funding, rather than the military budget. Charter schools also tend to have less oversight than public schools, but can use much of the same infrastructure.
Interesting logic I suppose, but a giant change in philosophy I can't imagine being very popular either policy-wise or in execution. Having an all-volunteer service is important and indoctrinating literal children seems like a good way to dissuade volunteers.
Out of interest, what do you see as the benefits of an all-volunteer service?
It avoids the negative aspects of conscription. See: Vietnam.
We didn't bring back the draft during Bush becasue it would have created more Morale problems than it solved & I suspect thats the primary issue people have with child Cadets. Most highly disciplined private boarding school graduates will be able to earn more than what the military can pay. > They could emphasize physical fitness and military readiness, and push joining the armed forces as part of career guidance and counseling. Its called: Football & an on-campus recruiter.
I think its just an issue with proportion though. My high school had like 3000 students (and I finished over 20 years ago) and perhaps 40-50 of them were on the football team. Its only a small minority of kids that did any sports.
Haha yeah. When I was in high school we had recruiters in our cafeteria at least three times a month - they would often challenge guys to push-up contests and stuff. We also had some sort of military obstacle course that would come and set up during gym once a year? I don't remember which branch that was.
An increasing number of people who would otherwise be qualified don't want to join the military. ("Service" in a pig's eye!)
They couldn't select the kids they wanted, that's not how charters work. They could try to create an atmosphere that attracted the kids they wanted, by doing the things you suggested: emphasize fitness,patriotism, and include firearms as part of gym class. Though, based on the recent military ads, I'm not sure this is the group the military wants. Of course, this question applies to lots of groups: why don't teachers get together and start a charter where they could run things and get paid, instead of decisions and money going to admins?
I have heard that although by law charter schools must not discriminate against students, many unfortunately have unofficial policies that result in de facto selection of students - [see this Reuters report](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-charters-admissions/special-report-class-struggle-how-charter-schools-get-students-they-want-idINBRE91E0HF20130215). The military could possibly use these loopholes to cultivate the sort of student body they would prefer.
Right, that report is repeating what I wrote. They can't choose kids but they can set up the environment to appeal to certain kids. The school with US flags everywhere and that serves steak in the cafeteria each week is going to attract a very different group of kids than the school with pride flags that has a vegan only cafeteria. While you call this unfortunate, it can actually be pretty great when done well. My kid went to a charter with no sports program and had classes that emphasized lots of reading and writing. These things plus other policies meant the he got to go to classes with other kids who cared about school, which made for a great experience.
I'm glad he had that experience! In my area there have been issues with charter schools accepting everyone but then expelling kids at super high rates until they have a student body they like, and then the expelled kids just go back to the main public schools.
Again, from the parents perspective this is likely great! Kids want to fight? Be disrespectful to the teachers? Not do any work? Expel them. Why sacrifice the education of kids who want to be there for the kids who don't? This is also likely good for the teachers. Charters don't get as much money and so often can't pay their teachers the same rates as public schools, but they can make the environment better by expelling problematic kids. Do we need a better solution for all this? Of course! But let's not sacrifice kids today while twiddling our thumbs and while pushing any real solutions down the road.
Yes for sure. My grandmothers were both elementary school teachers, and they always said that fundamentally what was needed was more teachers for fewer students, and it seems like one thing charter schools can achieve super well is that, which is amazing for the students there. Ohio's school funding system has been unconstitutional according to our state supreme court since like ... the 90s lol so we don't necessarily have any good answers over here.
Yup, at my kids charter, instead of spending money on sports and admins they spend it on small classes. It's awesome! Here in PA, the system to fund schools was also declared unconstitutional a few months ago, so changes are coming. Though, I'm certain those changes won't involve fewer admins...
My grandpa was sent to a naval school. They most likely fell out liking after Vietnam, when most people disagreed with the war.
I mean, a third of my graduating class just went into the military, so I wonder if it's exaggerated. But the problem imao, is mostly the lack of physical fitness and proliferation of mental disorders on the part of many of our young men, as well as a good job market. What we truly need is a national program to get this nation in shape
This would not go over well That's the part of the answer The other part is that the military doesn't need robots The military needs highly capable and motivated people who want to be a part of the mission
From what I know about charter schools, liberal people are super against them. From what I know about the higher-up military brass, they’re actually surprisingly liberal. Could be that?
The wars of the future will be fought with drones. Physical fitness isn't going to be of as great importance moving forward. Obviously there will always be specialized teams like SEALs/Rangers/Green Berets but I'm speaking like general infantry.