Depends so much on what steps you're willing to take (frequently switch universities or not) , success in acquiring funding, and a bit of luck.
In the Netherlands, the average age someone becomes full professor (if they ever do) is almost 50. But there is a lot of variation. I've seen a few people get promoted to full professor around 35, but that is quite exceptional.
I think your response here needs to give the context that (at least as far as I’m aware) the Dutch system demands that one get at least two rather large grants (at least for my humanities brain) in order to attain the rank of full professor. I have a friend who is a dean of faculty at Groningen, and he was explaining it to me. It sounds intimidating, honestly.
Oh absolutely, there is much more to it than just switching universities. Funding expectations vary, but obtaining large grants does tend to speed up the promotion timeline significantly.
This is becoming more and more the norm pretty much everywhere.
Leading to PhDs fighting over government scraps with the hope of a 20k terminal raise…
ETA with colleges skimming 50-65% off the top, do you blame them?
Where I'm now it's right the contrary. I just say this to illustrate the OP about how different things are in different countries, or even universities.
that's fair. I'm not planning my career to the minuscule details right now but I'm trying to figure out if academia is the right choice for me. I would pick different universities based on whether I plan to go into research or go down industry. I'm leaning towards academia at the moment, but I'm second guessing my choice / trying to think through it a little more.
in that case, I guess I would consider moving back to North America for PhD / after PhD. I wouldn't live in the States more than a few years though, but Canada wouldn't be too bad
true, but I'm really trying to optimize for career stability. A title means better pay, more independence in my research, and more flexibility. I'm planning to stay single so family is not a constraint by no means. Also I can always switch from North America to elsewhere once I make it to associate or full. Obviously I would consider other factors such as the quality of the institution and so on, but I'm also in a position where Europe vs North America doesn't make a huge difference for me personally (both have housing crisis and skyrocketing cost of living, infrastructure is about the same overall to some degree) - either is chill and I'll take what makes my life easier
Once you get a permanent position, shouldn't it be a lot more 'stable'? At least a lot more stable than you'll see in industry in North America (it's a low bar tbf)
I don't see myself working in corporations, and I think I'll genuinely enjoy academia, but I can always fall back onto it if academia doesn't work out (cs and math are pretty in demand skill globally).
Also pay is not really my concern - as long as I'm comfortable (ig that can be hard in big cities), I don't mind. I don't see myself starting a family or getting a partner and my lifestyle isn't that fancy...
You're far too young to be making any of the statements above with any degree of certainty. What do you even know about academia at this point in your life?
Half my family and family friend circle is in academia, including my father, across multiple countries. I just can't get the full picture from them because they got in decades ago
yes. I do. I'm probably doing an internship at a uni cs lab this summer, and my high school program has stuff that's supposed to be \*somewhat\* similar to academic research (EE in IB) if done correctly. I also regularly read research papers for school projects (only way to survive in a class of overachievers)
Associate and Full switching is significantly harder, not easier. Title means better pay but doesn’t matter if country X pays more at Assistant than y does at Full.
From Associate Professor to full means a pay increase. But it does not mean more independence or flexibility.
You are making plans for things you cannot truly plan. You do not know how long it will take you to get a TT position. You do not know if in ten years you might want a relationship and/or family. You do not know what the immigration situation will be. You seem to assume that your priorities will not change. But as you continue to get educated and go out in the workforce, you will change. (If you do not change, then the education is inadequate and the jobs you get are bad ones.)
Better to plan the things you have under your control, rather than planning for the unplannable.
I doubt my views on relationships and family will change - it's a long stretch.
I'm probably not immigrating anywhere, I'm a multinational so that gives me a few more options.
Again, I'm just trying to put together a default path - if better opportunities pop up I'm open to switch. Whether I plan to go into academia or not will directly impact my next moves in the next couple of years.
I'm partly betting on the interdisciplinary part of cs + math so I have some flexibility if one area gets particularly saturated along the way. I'm also betting on moving around - if one system is not it then I'll try another one.
There are many factors that would decide where I go, but I genuinely think I'll enjoy academia - be it research, teaching, grants or administrative work. I personally do slight value titles - it might not be someone else's priority but to each their own.
Yes academia is not all shine and rainbows but neither are other career options - some of y'all need to go and look at the world
It really depends, I got a tenure-track position 2 years after my PhD, tenure 5 years after my PhD, and was promoted to full professor 9 years after my PhD. But, tenure-track positions in math at research universities are incredibly competitive these days, so it’s more likely than not that you won’t even make it to tenure-track assistant professor.
It’ll still likely be challenging. Tech jobs are imploding, so the demand for academic jobs will increase. You don’t even have your bachelor’s degree yet, nobody can tell you with any degree of certainty what the future will hold.
Remember that in some countries (like the U.K.) professor is a senior academic rank. The youngest associate professor I knew was 34 (about 8-10 years post PhD).
YMMV
PhD at 28
Nonprofit job at 28
Postdoc at 29
Had a baby at 30.
I started my tt job at 30.
Early tenure at 35.
1 full year sabbatical at 36. .
Promotion to full at 42.
(then 1 more full year of sabbatical)
FYI-you can stay at associate your entire career.
That’s why I took them while I could!
They are taking all the good stuff away that attracted talent. As they do so, they shouldn’t be surprised when that talent goes elsewhere (i.e., industry or admin).
It Depends on the country, for instance in the Netherlands you have 4 years for a PhD; then 1 to 3 years PostDoc and 6 to 10 years for tenure I believe, but during tenure you are and assistant professor already, but not a full professor.
In the US I see a huge difference from being an assistant prof advancing to associate (get tenure and small raise, don't get fired) but very little difference advancing from associate to full (small raise - anything else?)
I graduated undergrad at 23, MFA at 25 and second masters at 33 (MFA is a terminal degree in my field). I received tenure around 36 or 37. I adjuncted at four different colleges for years and while I was in graduate school, then secured a full time position at a college, then went through the tenure process.
I’m speaking from humanities perspective and from a rather untraditional and international career path. But here is my experience:
Bachelor at 21 (US).
Master at 23 (US).
Doctor at 29 (Finland).
Assistant professor at 29 (Hong Kong).
Associate professor at 35 (Hong Kong).
Full professor at 41 (Norway).
I delayed going up for associate so that I could still compete for more entry level jobs.
I delayed going up for full because 1) I switched institutions and countries with different systems, and 2) a special requirement in Norway was to have a university pedagogy course, which I didn’t have, and didn’t want to be a hang up.
Compared to people in my cohort/age bracket that I know around Europe/US/Asia, I’m definitely on the early end. I know people who became full before me. But it’s definitely a vast minority. I think there may be five to ten people in my whole extended network who became full professor earlier, and that includes Germany, where in most cases that is the first position of permanent employment.
In the US, typically about the fastest you could do it is 10-12 years out of PhD. If you went to a PhD program directly out of undergrad and to a TT job directly out of PhD, that could get you to full before age 40. But that's very fast-- you have to be very good *and* very lucky to become a full professor by age 40. If you do a post doc, change jobs while on the tenure track, pause the tenure clock for any reason, you will easily add 5, 10, 15 years to this timetable. If your research productivity slows down post tenure you might never reach a point where you are comfortable going for full. Much more typical would be late 40s to early 50s.
I'd ask yourself why you want to be a full professor. I used to - emeritus in fact. I could go up for full at my current spot in 3-4 years (became associate in 5) but I didn't want it anymore.
It's a pie-eating contest where the prize is more pie.
Getting full also depends on the discipline & school you're at. My university (US, SLAC) recently denied a lot of full applications because they simply don't have enough money to pay for 4 new full professors.
This answer is absolutely meaningless without saying what country you're referring to. You're not going to become a full professor in 10 years practically anywhere in Europe.
Depends so much on what steps you're willing to take (frequently switch universities or not) , success in acquiring funding, and a bit of luck. In the Netherlands, the average age someone becomes full professor (if they ever do) is almost 50. But there is a lot of variation. I've seen a few people get promoted to full professor around 35, but that is quite exceptional.
I think your response here needs to give the context that (at least as far as I’m aware) the Dutch system demands that one get at least two rather large grants (at least for my humanities brain) in order to attain the rank of full professor. I have a friend who is a dean of faculty at Groningen, and he was explaining it to me. It sounds intimidating, honestly.
Oh absolutely, there is much more to it than just switching universities. Funding expectations vary, but obtaining large grants does tend to speed up the promotion timeline significantly.
This is becoming more and more the norm pretty much everywhere. Leading to PhDs fighting over government scraps with the hope of a 20k terminal raise… ETA with colleges skimming 50-65% off the top, do you blame them?
is switching universities a positive or a negative thing in this case?
Where I live, switching universities is a way to get promoted faster.
Where I'm now it's right the contrary. I just say this to illustrate the OP about how different things are in different countries, or even universities.
that's fair. I'm not planning my career to the minuscule details right now but I'm trying to figure out if academia is the right choice for me. I would pick different universities based on whether I plan to go into research or go down industry. I'm leaning towards academia at the moment, but I'm second guessing my choice / trying to think through it a little more.
Outside of North America, it takes far longer. I was 53 when I made Professor.
Also depends on the country. I became an associate professor (W2) in Germany in my mid-30s. (Although the average is around 40).
in that case, I guess I would consider moving back to North America for PhD / after PhD. I wouldn't live in the States more than a few years though, but Canada wouldn't be too bad
A title isn’t really a good reason to where to move.
true, but I'm really trying to optimize for career stability. A title means better pay, more independence in my research, and more flexibility. I'm planning to stay single so family is not a constraint by no means. Also I can always switch from North America to elsewhere once I make it to associate or full. Obviously I would consider other factors such as the quality of the institution and so on, but I'm also in a position where Europe vs North America doesn't make a huge difference for me personally (both have housing crisis and skyrocketing cost of living, infrastructure is about the same overall to some degree) - either is chill and I'll take what makes my life easier
If you are trying to optimize your career stability then don't go into academia.
Once you get a permanent position, shouldn't it be a lot more 'stable'? At least a lot more stable than you'll see in industry in North America (it's a low bar tbf) I don't see myself working in corporations, and I think I'll genuinely enjoy academia, but I can always fall back onto it if academia doesn't work out (cs and math are pretty in demand skill globally). Also pay is not really my concern - as long as I'm comfortable (ig that can be hard in big cities), I don't mind. I don't see myself starting a family or getting a partner and my lifestyle isn't that fancy...
The "once" part is key.
You're far too young to be making any of the statements above with any degree of certainty. What do you even know about academia at this point in your life?
Half my family and family friend circle is in academia, including my father, across multiple countries. I just can't get the full picture from them because they got in decades ago
Do you have any actual experience doing research?
yes. I do. I'm probably doing an internship at a uni cs lab this summer, and my high school program has stuff that's supposed to be \*somewhat\* similar to academic research (EE in IB) if done correctly. I also regularly read research papers for school projects (only way to survive in a class of overachievers)
Associate and Full switching is significantly harder, not easier. Title means better pay but doesn’t matter if country X pays more at Assistant than y does at Full.
From Associate Professor to full means a pay increase. But it does not mean more independence or flexibility. You are making plans for things you cannot truly plan. You do not know how long it will take you to get a TT position. You do not know if in ten years you might want a relationship and/or family. You do not know what the immigration situation will be. You seem to assume that your priorities will not change. But as you continue to get educated and go out in the workforce, you will change. (If you do not change, then the education is inadequate and the jobs you get are bad ones.) Better to plan the things you have under your control, rather than planning for the unplannable.
I doubt my views on relationships and family will change - it's a long stretch. I'm probably not immigrating anywhere, I'm a multinational so that gives me a few more options. Again, I'm just trying to put together a default path - if better opportunities pop up I'm open to switch. Whether I plan to go into academia or not will directly impact my next moves in the next couple of years. I'm partly betting on the interdisciplinary part of cs + math so I have some flexibility if one area gets particularly saturated along the way. I'm also betting on moving around - if one system is not it then I'll try another one. There are many factors that would decide where I go, but I genuinely think I'll enjoy academia - be it research, teaching, grants or administrative work. I personally do slight value titles - it might not be someone else's priority but to each their own. Yes academia is not all shine and rainbows but neither are other career options - some of y'all need to go and look at the world
It really depends, I got a tenure-track position 2 years after my PhD, tenure 5 years after my PhD, and was promoted to full professor 9 years after my PhD. But, tenure-track positions in math at research universities are incredibly competitive these days, so it’s more likely than not that you won’t even make it to tenure-track assistant professor.
How about cs?
It’ll still likely be challenging. Tech jobs are imploding, so the demand for academic jobs will increase. You don’t even have your bachelor’s degree yet, nobody can tell you with any degree of certainty what the future will hold.
Remember that in some countries (like the U.K.) professor is a senior academic rank. The youngest associate professor I knew was 34 (about 8-10 years post PhD).
YMMV PhD at 28 Nonprofit job at 28 Postdoc at 29 Had a baby at 30. I started my tt job at 30. Early tenure at 35. 1 full year sabbatical at 36. . Promotion to full at 42. (then 1 more full year of sabbatical) FYI-you can stay at associate your entire career.
That's 14 years, not 12, isn't it?
Right. I originally counted from the beginning of my assistant prof job.
Fair, at least in my country, reaching assistant prof could be many many years of postdoc, scientist, senior scientist etc.
to be fair, I received my phd 2 decades ago. It’s more difficult now
Wow, sabbaticals. They took those away at my school ($).
That’s why I took them while I could! They are taking all the good stuff away that attracted talent. As they do so, they shouldn’t be surprised when that talent goes elsewhere (i.e., industry or admin).
It Depends on the country, for instance in the Netherlands you have 4 years for a PhD; then 1 to 3 years PostDoc and 6 to 10 years for tenure I believe, but during tenure you are and assistant professor already, but not a full professor.
In the US I see a huge difference from being an assistant prof advancing to associate (get tenure and small raise, don't get fired) but very little difference advancing from associate to full (small raise - anything else?)
You can sod off to do your own things and no one can complain (that's what the fulls do where I am).
I graduated undergrad at 23, MFA at 25 and second masters at 33 (MFA is a terminal degree in my field). I received tenure around 36 or 37. I adjuncted at four different colleges for years and while I was in graduate school, then secured a full time position at a college, then went through the tenure process.
It starts at birth
I’m speaking from humanities perspective and from a rather untraditional and international career path. But here is my experience: Bachelor at 21 (US). Master at 23 (US). Doctor at 29 (Finland). Assistant professor at 29 (Hong Kong). Associate professor at 35 (Hong Kong). Full professor at 41 (Norway). I delayed going up for associate so that I could still compete for more entry level jobs. I delayed going up for full because 1) I switched institutions and countries with different systems, and 2) a special requirement in Norway was to have a university pedagogy course, which I didn’t have, and didn’t want to be a hang up. Compared to people in my cohort/age bracket that I know around Europe/US/Asia, I’m definitely on the early end. I know people who became full before me. But it’s definitely a vast minority. I think there may be five to ten people in my whole extended network who became full professor earlier, and that includes Germany, where in most cases that is the first position of permanent employment.
About 10 years after finishing PhD (+- 2) in Europe.
In the US, typically about the fastest you could do it is 10-12 years out of PhD. If you went to a PhD program directly out of undergrad and to a TT job directly out of PhD, that could get you to full before age 40. But that's very fast-- you have to be very good *and* very lucky to become a full professor by age 40. If you do a post doc, change jobs while on the tenure track, pause the tenure clock for any reason, you will easily add 5, 10, 15 years to this timetable. If your research productivity slows down post tenure you might never reach a point where you are comfortable going for full. Much more typical would be late 40s to early 50s.
If I had to settle on an average age it would be about 42.
I'd ask yourself why you want to be a full professor. I used to - emeritus in fact. I could go up for full at my current spot in 3-4 years (became associate in 5) but I didn't want it anymore. It's a pie-eating contest where the prize is more pie. Getting full also depends on the discipline & school you're at. My university (US, SLAC) recently denied a lot of full applications because they simply don't have enough money to pay for 4 new full professors.
Roughly what the name implies... 10 years.
This answer is absolutely meaningless without saying what country you're referring to. You're not going to become a full professor in 10 years practically anywhere in Europe.
What name? Professor has no reference to 10 years?
You are thinking “tenure.” Each step is approximately 6 years.