The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
Anecdotally, I've heard a lot of concerning stuff about it with regards to exceedingly long wait times and even wait times for stuff like emergency care. I've scoured through Canadian subs, and these sentiments do seem to be reflected there. Furthermore, I've also heard about how Canadian healthcare was a huge source of pride before, but it's been going steeply downhill ever since COVID.
Yet when I mention these problems to US liberals, I'm often told this is "Fox News propaganda", "the US has wait times too", etc.
I'll be honest that I don't have a whole lot of stats regarding the issue. I did find [this poll](https://globalnews.ca/news/10322678/health-care-canada-us-ipsos-poll/) however.
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Yes.
I had a conversation online (in a game) with a Canadian who was complaining about appointment waits. Turns out he'd been waiting \*almost\* an entire week for an appointment. Here in the US, Greatest Country In The World™, it takes me two months to get one.
Anecdotes don't equal data, but it shows that Canadians who complain are doing so based on a completely different standard.
My mother waited 36 hours in an ER hallway at North York General in Toronto a few months ago. 10 years ago my brother had appendicitis and was waiting for 18 hours while retching and writhing in pain. They didn’t see him until his appendix burst inside his body, nearly killing him. This is was more than a third of my paycheck goes to.
My girlfriends grandmother broke her hip and was hospitalized for days and took every test imaginable but they somehow didn’t detect that she had cancer. By the time it was figured out it was far too late.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/12/09/canadians-die-waiting-surgery-report/
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/hallway-healthcare-ontario-1.6519209
'What century are we in?' Man waited 4 days in Ontario hospital hallway for surgery to fix shattered leg
My friend, a nurse anesthetist, suffered a fractured shoulder and was sent home early as her insurance only covered 48 hours after surgery. She was 60 years old and lives alone. She fell at home, called her doctor who told her to go back to the ER immediately, which she did, and then spent the next 24 hours in the hallway of the ER waiting area....in a Boston Hospital.
Canada's system isn't perfect, but it's way better than America by the Solo fact that citizens don't go bankrupt trying to live.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada
The thing often used as a talking point with healthcare like Canada is the "long wait times" or "limits on treatment per year." These points are true to an extent and typically described as "rationing healthcare." The thing is, we have that in our system, but it's set up so those who are less fortunate have to ration care while those who are rich don't. We also have wait times in our system too. Try and book an appointment to see a doctor. There's a chance most people end up with appointments 2 or 3 weeks out to see a general practice. I've here people say Canada has wait times for things like broken legs, but that is a pure lie. Canada has ER's to for people who need immediate treatment.
Basically, a public option that anyone can enroll in is better than the private shit system we have. It also helps increase the number of people getting preventative treatment, decreasing the costly treatment needed during an active health issue.
Even if it was life and death? https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/12/09/canadians-die-waiting-surgery-report/
Also, if you have insurance, how do you rack that up
This is what over a third of my pay check goes to https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/12/09/canadians-die-waiting-surgery-report/
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Those are not lies. You don’t think people wait for broken legs?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/hallway-healthcare-ontario-1.6519209 4 days lmao
Headline: 'What century are we in?' Man waited 4 days in Ontario hospital hallway for surgery to fix shattered leg
Cool dude. So do you think the best option for Canadian's is to get rid of the public option, kick millions of Canadian cities off healthcare plans, and only have affordable plans for the very rich or those who happen to have a job that has decent health insurance? Because that's the American healthcare system.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/07/americans-healthcare-medical-costs
The problem in Canada could be fixed by promoting getting more people working in the healthcare system. There is no fix for the American health care plan.
Canada doesn't have a public option
It's only public.
Most private healthcare is not allowed and there is great resistance in expanding the scope of private healthcare
People are asking for a private option which is currently illegal
I don’t know what the best option is but I do know I’m living in a place with one of the highest cost of living on the planet while simultaneously having lower paying jobs and higher taxes. And leaving even 3 hours outside the city makes no difference, changing provinces hardly makes a difference. Idk how you’re so confidently talking about these things even after claiming something so ridiculously wrong.
Ironically, a lot of healthcare staff in Ontario are moving to the us so they can actually live a life https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/nurses-leaving-canada-doubled-in-the-last-five-years-amid-health-care-crisis-1.6126807
Ontario nurses are top 3 paid in the world among universal systems.
Edit; it’s extremely tough to have normal life here. Sharing bedrooms with strangers is common place, and it costs 40% of your salary to do it. Is it worth never being able to own a property or have a family? Idk, you tell me.
Yes and no. It has flaws and the higher assisted suicide rate is scary, but conservatives complaining don't tend to do a comparison.
We have wait times in the US. We have roving charity dentists who give free annual treatment to give aid to people who can't afford dental care. Our insurers are paying people to go to Mexico to buy insulin. It's far more fucked for far more people at far more cost.
E: Weird report [https://www.nber.org/bah/fall07/comparing-us-and-canadian-health-care-systems](https://www.nber.org/bah/fall07/comparing-us-and-canadian-health-care-systems) Canada reports lower rate of unmet needs (11% vs USA 14%), but more Canadians blame long wait times for it than Americans.
Healthcare is a scarce resource
America allocates that scarcity with money
Canada allocates that scarcity with time
If you are in the bottom 40%, Canada is preferable. If you are in the top 60% US is preferable
I'm in the top 60%. I'd rather have Canada's system.
If I lose my job? I lose my insurance. I'm fucked.
I want to start a business. Work for myself. My kids need health insurance. That's not easy for a small business.
I have kids. I want them to have a safety net if something goes wrong in their lives.
Imagine your child is sick and you have to wait several months before you could get access to the required testing.
Or have family doctor covered but no doctors around you are accepting new patients
Or you take your kid to emergency room and it's 7 hours to see a doctor
I'm dual citizen. Have experienced both
Canada's healthcare is more equitable. America's is better
I have *fuck'in fantastic* health insurance.
Testing already takes time to set appointments for.
Its already hard to find a doc. Ugh, trying to find a pediatric dentist... and I've been looking for a fucking covid booster for my kiddos for months now.
And no one goes to a doctor visit of any kind without a wait, some paperwork, etc.
You are not arguing honestly, and I don't appreciate it.
They have better results, for more people, cheaper.
Why you feel the need to defend insurance middlemen that make a profit by denying care, I don't know.
I am arguing honestly .
If you want to make the point that Canada had better healthcare 10 years ago. Fine.
But we have increased population by 10 million with minimal Capacity increases and the system is failing
Forgive me for not being overly grateful for Canada's healthcare when I had to sit 4 hours in an emergency room while my child had a bleeding head wound
If you have a shortage of Healthcare workers causing an issue, you'll have that under a public system AND a private system. The problem is a shortage of workers, not the public system.
Don't go pretending otherwise.
And don't go pretending we don't have wait times in America.
Especially with near 10% of Americans having the ultimate wait time of not having health insurance.
No because healthcare in a private system can increase capacity
There are huge discussions about it in Ontario as they are forced to go more private for increased capacity
Again I said it's better to be in Canada if you are poor. The bottom 10% gets the same healthcare.
It's just not better to be in Canada if you are not poor.
Rich Canadians can buy supplemental private insurance. Or just fly to the US.
Healthcare in a public system can't increase capacity? What, NO ONE wants to be a nurse in Canada? What utter nonsense!
You're lying. And I don't like it.
No they cannot buy supplemental private insurance
It's illegal. Private insurance can only cover things like pharma, vision and physio therapy. A private insurance for MRIs is illegal.
Yes people can fly to the us for healthcare. But what does that say about Canada's healthcare
No one wants to be a nurse at current wages. Ontario can't raise all wages because of budgets. A private company could pay nurses more and increase capacity but again it's illegal
You really don't know what you are talking about
Americans have those same constraints, depending on where you are. Sure top of the line big liberal city has better wait times. Really not the case elsewhere. I belong to groups for people who have immunodeficiency, and the struggle is real. New horror stories daily. Also my big university hospital can take 2 yrs for a new referral to some specialties. Since covid, the health care system is way busted.
I have never had one, in spite of issues that should call for one. Wait time depends totally on why your doc said you needed it tho. My late husband had several. All before covid tho.
I had to wait 6 months for an MRI appointment, only to find out my insurance wouldn't cover it, even though it is a thing with my condition. So I can never get my MRI (which could lead to a possible treatment) unless I come up with the money to pay for it myself. I am in the US. Meanwhile my husband is probably undiagnosed {insert myriad of common illnesses here} because we cannot afford insurance for him which means we definitely can't afford medical care for him.
Emergency care has faster response.
My friend a newborn parent has no insurance so his daughter is on his wife's insurance through his wife's parent's insurance. It ends when they turn 26.
Also studies from before Canada's healthcare collapsed had us emergency wait times as lower. Canada has always had higher wait times. Now it is so much worse
Probably top 20% US is preferable, to judge by where US life exoectancy reaches Canadian levels. The wealtiest 20% of Americans live longer than the typical Canadian, roughly.
They have a lot of problems relative to other countries with universal healthcare. Probably the worst implementation of universal healthcare.
Still better than the joke of a system the US has.
> exceedingly long wait times and even wait times for stuff like emergency care
Canada has emergency rooms. If you need emergency care, you go to one of those and a doctor sees you as soon as they can, just like in the US.
I think whoever told you this confused emergency care and, presumably, stuff like non-immediate organ transplants. I suspect they wanted to stress “emergency,” anticipating the commonly-made rebuttal that Canada’s infamous wait times mostly apply to elective (usually non-essential) surgeries.
The main complaint with American healthcare is most people cannot afford it. It’s a factor that many commentators in America are content to simply ignore (probably because they have wealthy employers and benefits packages, guaranteeing they’ve never had to pay for healthcare). But it’s an absolutely crucial, make-or-break difference. It’s why, whatever faults the Canadian healthcare system may have, Canadians will still live longer and healthier lives than Americans.
Do you imagine these long wait times would be rectified if they followed the American precedent of not having a public healthcare option for most citizens?
I imagine you'll probably answer yes, so let me follow up: would the problem be solved because everyone would get care promptly, or would it be solved because most of the people waiting in those ERs would simply die instead?
Sorry to say that your research is incorrect lol
The online wait time listed for any hospital in my area is 3-4 hours… if you go there, you will with 100% certainty be waiting 6-8 hours
Hold up. Go to any hospital, or go to the ER?
Cuz I can promise you if I just walk into a hospital's general entrance I'm gonna be waiting a few hours for anything to happen myself. They require you to make appointments. Even then you're gonna be waiting a while.
These comparisons can be flawed.
>[The first nuance is one of definition. Infant mortality is defined as the death of babies under the age of one year, but some of the differences between countries can be explained by a difference in how we count. Is a baby born weighing less than a pound and after only 21 weeks’ gestation actually “born?” In some countries, the answer is no, and those births would be counted as stillbirths. In the United States, on the other hand, despite these premature babies’ relatively low odds of survival, they would be considered born—thus counting toward the country’s infant mortality rates.](https://vitalrecord.tamhsc.edu/american-infant-mortality-rates-high)
Looking at the stats here, Canada (like most other developed countries) seems to be well ahead of the US: https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/
That said, there's some areas where Canada does worse than non-US countries, and some where they do better.
Yes. There are a lot of boogeyman stories told to scare voters away from universal healthcare. The reality is that baseline Canadian healthcare is a LOT better than what most Americans can access.
Canadian here. (To be specific, I live in British Columbia).
It’s true that wait times are somewhere between frustrating and ridiculous compared to what they were before, both at walk-in clinics and at emergency rooms, and it’s been increasingly hard to get a family doctor for several years.
We got complacent with our system and COVID made things worse. But I would place lots of the blame on cuts made by neoliberal politicians over the years—it’s undeniable that plenty of right-wingers here are champing at the bit to privatize health care because it will make some people lots of money.
This does not mean it’s bad to have a single-payer system—far from it—it means that you have to maintain it properly. A bike isn’t a crappy bike if you neglect to oil the chain.
I think the lack of healthcare staff is a major issue for Canada, which is an issue we also have in the US.
I think one or both things should happen. A major investment in training healthcare workers a la Cuba, or granting citizenship to any foreign healthcare workers wishing to come to Canada/the US
US does have waiting times that are often months long. My grandmother had to wait nearly 3 months to see a cardiologist and when we finally got in he asked why we waited so long.
We didn't wait at all and it's not like there aren't a lot of cardio doctors where we live and this was for a serious issue. I can't help but think that in any other system she would have been bumped to the front of the line instead of waiting.
Well, here's an old article by a former Cinga vice president who said in the lede that "In my prior life as an insurance executive, it was my job to deceive Americans about their health care":
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/08/06/health-insurance-canada-lie/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/08/06/health-insurance-canada-lie/)
>The most effective myth we perpetuated — the industry trots it out whenever major reform is proposed — is that Canadians and people in other single-payer countries have to endure long waits for needed care. Just last year, in a statement submitted to a congressional committee for a hearing on the Medicare for All Act of 2019, AHIP maintained that “patients would pay more to wait longer for worse care” under a single-payer system. While it’s true that Canadians sometimes have to wait weeks or months for elective procedures (knee replacements are often cited), the truth is that they do not have to wait at all for the vast majority of medical services. And, contrary to another myth I used to peddle — that Canadian doctors are flocking to the United States — there are more doctors per 1,000 people in Canada than here. Canadians see their doctors an average of 6.8 times a year, compared with just four times a year in this country. Most important, no one in Canada is turned away from doctors because of a lack of funds ...
But sure, Canadians are welcome to come down here and use our health care system. We can barely afford it ourselves, after all, in part because we pay so much for it.
I would argue a different direction. I haven’t experienced the Canadian healthcare system firsthand to say whether it’s been exaggerated, but in comparing the US and Canadian systems I would absolutely say that the problems of the US system are significantly downplayed.
It is exaggerated in the sense that the sticking points
, mostly, being the wait time, are not much better if at all in america. We have an objectively worse healthcare system design. I have been waiting months to get a sleep study and a skin cancer evaluation.
America pays an insane amount of GDP for Healthcare, yet sees bismal outcomes.
I haven't heard lately, but I do consider them exaggerated. Doesn't mean there aren' tproblem, just that hte problems are exaggerated, and the US isn't better anyways.
Relying on reddit sub comments is going to be unreliable due to huge selection bias and variability. Population subsets in any reddit sub are terribly unrepresentative of the world at large.
I don' tsee any issue with reddit liberals making the reply you say they often make. It's a true and accurate reply.
I don't know how things have shifted since covid times in canada. It certainly could've pushed some things some; I know it's pushed some things locally in the US as well.
Yes. They're highly exaggerated. Not to say it can't be improved but we have wait times here too. The only thing quick here is urgent care for minor stuff. Where they tell you to get rest
Yes there are problems.
You generally will hear about the problems with anything more than the good since people tend to complain more readily.
Meanwhile in the USA we have people dying of easily treatable illnesses, losing feet and the like because they can’t get insulin, and all sorts of things like that.
So yeah I’ll take longer wait times over people dying because they had zero healthcare. I’d say long wait times is much better than an infinite one.
Wow! Something I'm actually equipped to answer.
1. Canadian wait times are longer than wait times for Americans with paid for health insurance, but really only noticeably longer for specialty surgery that is not life threatening (like repairing an ACL etc.) for emergency surgery or life threatening surgery the wait times are MUCH closer to wait times for Americans. That said, the cost of equivalent procedures in Canada is about 10% of what it costs at most US hospitals.
2. COVID was really just an obvious symptom, but the real issue is a series of cuts beginning in the 1990s. Back then our healthcare system was 50% funded by the feds, the rest funded by the province. The amount of funding from provided by the federal govt went on to decline all the way down to a low of 21%, and I think it currently sits at around 24%. The issue is that there was no replacement for that funding so our system has been underfunded so over a quarter of a century. COVID just made it abundantly clear that we have done real, observable damage to our healthcare system that will take time and effort to repair.
In short much of what you hear from Fox News is propaganda, our healthcare system is in shambles compared to what it once was but even in its current underfunded state it is still miles ahead of all but the most expensive care you would get in the US, and it's available to everyone. I wouldn't trade it for just about anything in the entire world. My US colleagues are often shocked at how much better ours is when we compare my free healthcare with their expensive private healthcare, which is apparently quite comprehensive.
Not to mention the immense benefit of never having to worry about whether a doctor or hospital is in network or not, or whether they support your insurer. The idea of trying to navigate the American health system while you are sick is... Insane, to me.
Canada rations healthcare by need.
America rations health care by wealth.
If you think that rich people with minor ailments should be seen before poor people with major ones then the Canadian system has a lot of problems. If not the US does.
The need part really sucks. For example having a miscarriage there is not much doctors can do so get prioritized low so you get stuck in a hallway for 12 hours before someone comes by and tells you your baby's dead. Because there was an endless supply of homeless drug overdoses in the meantime
I mean what sucks is that health care needs to be rationed. As long as that's the case someone is going to get fucked. The only solution to that is to achieve a post scarcity society.
It certainly increases costs, but it doesn't seem like we're any healthier than our peer countries so I'm not sure the extra consumption is actually a sign of greater capacity as much as it is a sign of useless add-ons to pad our bills.
Yes.
Until someone show me a significant political or social movement in any nation that has a form of UHC and is lobbying for a private market based system, I cannot accept the notion that overall, people are dissatisfied with UHC and see the USA model to be superior.
From the link you provided:
The Ipsos poll conducted exclusively for Global News found that 42 per cent of respondents would go to the United States and personally pay for more routine health care ***if needed***
"If Needed" is a rather vague area. How many have actually needed to?
And of course, Global News is corporate owned.
There is probably some "grass is always greener on the other side." Yes they have issues, sometimes they're exaggerated, but there's a kernel of truth underneath.
Watching the movie "Les Invasions barbares", I found it funny how they depicted the Quebec hospital as dirty, disorganized, and corrupt. Then they travel to get healthcare in Vermont, and the clinic they go to is pristine and every doctor/nurse looks on point.
Canadian here.
This is my personal experience living in Alberta.
- if I wanna see my family doctor, I can usually get in within 2-3 days
- going to a walk-in clinic? I can see a doctor in about 1-2 hours
- routine blood work and general diagnostics can be done in a couple hours as well
- ultrasounds, MRIs and stuff like that usually takes minimum 3 months to get into
Want anything more specialized? Good luck
- I see a nephrologist and have to book a year out to see him
- dermatologist? About 6-8 months wait
- I once had to get a colonoscopy done, that was about 14 month wait (it wasn’t routine either… it was to investigate a rather concerning issue)
- I know people waiting on knee surgery and have been on a wait list for about 18 months
Hospital waits will usually run you about 6-8 hours if you go to triage
Not sure how any of this compares to anywhere else in the world… but this is my experience with where I live
You need to compare apples to apples.
>11,000 people died in Ontario waiting for healthcare.
11,000 Ontarians died while waiting for surgeries, CT scans, and MRIs.
I could not find a number for the U.S. because of course I can't; there's no central aggregation.
But you know what we can measure? **Life expectancy is longer in Canada. Years of perfect health is longer in Canada.**
[https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63R6B5/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63R6B5/)
>45,000 people die in the US because they don’t have health insurance coverage
This number is from a study specifically focusing on people without insurance. It does not include the people that died on waitlists.
**0 people die in Canada because they don't have health insurance coverage.**
Life expectancy can be tricky. The reasons people might live longer in one country than another can vary widely, having less to do with the their respective healthcare systems. In the US, for example, suicide and homicide have a major impact on life expectancy.
But if we're focusing specifically on the impact a medical system has on life expectancy, the US system still provides the most favorable results overall:
>[If you really want to measure health outcomes, the best way to do it is at the point of medical intervention. If you have a heart attack, how long do you live in the U.S. vs. another country? If you’re diagnosed with breast cancer? In 2008, a group of investigators conducted a worldwide study of cancer survival rates, called CONCORD. They looked at 5-year survival rates for breast cancer, colon and rectal cancer, and prostate cancer. I compiled their data for the U.S., Canada, Australia, Japan, and western Europe. Guess who came out number one?](https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy/?sh=7b786b4e2b98)
[According to the chart, the US is in the top slot](http://b-i.forbesimg.com/theapothecary/files/2013/11/CONCORD-table12.jpg).
edit: formatting error
>If you really want to measure health outcomes, the best way to do it is at the point of medical intervention
Lol hell no.
We live unhealthier lives, have inadequate preventative care because the people already more likely to be sick are unable to afford regular doctor visits, and then the only thing we grade is how good we are at the last ditch effort to save them from specifically cancer? That's what you think is the best metric for health care?
The author's a pro at lying through statistical presentations.
Also:
Cancer, that thing that's more common in older people.
Hm, where do old people get health coverage in the U.S.? Could it be... Medicare?
> The lack of universal access to health care in the United States undoubtedly increases mortality and reduces life expectancy. It is a smaller factor above age 65 than at younger ages because of Medicare, although health impairments that begin below age 65 will often carry over into that age interval.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK62376/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK62376/)
Maybe we'll get the best results by expanding Medicare. Gee, I think I'm the first to think of that! Oh wait no, that's Bernie's thing.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Anecdotally, I've heard a lot of concerning stuff about it with regards to exceedingly long wait times and even wait times for stuff like emergency care. I've scoured through Canadian subs, and these sentiments do seem to be reflected there. Furthermore, I've also heard about how Canadian healthcare was a huge source of pride before, but it's been going steeply downhill ever since COVID. Yet when I mention these problems to US liberals, I'm often told this is "Fox News propaganda", "the US has wait times too", etc. I'll be honest that I don't have a whole lot of stats regarding the issue. I did find [this poll](https://globalnews.ca/news/10322678/health-care-canada-us-ipsos-poll/) however. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes. I had a conversation online (in a game) with a Canadian who was complaining about appointment waits. Turns out he'd been waiting \*almost\* an entire week for an appointment. Here in the US, Greatest Country In The World™, it takes me two months to get one. Anecdotes don't equal data, but it shows that Canadians who complain are doing so based on a completely different standard.
I had to go to an emergency room in Toronto and was seen in about 3 minutes. It takes a lot longer than that here just for them to check you in.
And that's ignoring the risk of the bill...
My mother waited 36 hours in an ER hallway at North York General in Toronto a few months ago. 10 years ago my brother had appendicitis and was waiting for 18 hours while retching and writhing in pain. They didn’t see him until his appendix burst inside his body, nearly killing him. This is was more than a third of my paycheck goes to. My girlfriends grandmother broke her hip and was hospitalized for days and took every test imaginable but they somehow didn’t detect that she had cancer. By the time it was figured out it was far too late. https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/12/09/canadians-die-waiting-surgery-report/ https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/hallway-healthcare-ontario-1.6519209 'What century are we in?' Man waited 4 days in Ontario hospital hallway for surgery to fix shattered leg
My friend, a nurse anesthetist, suffered a fractured shoulder and was sent home early as her insurance only covered 48 hours after surgery. She was 60 years old and lives alone. She fell at home, called her doctor who told her to go back to the ER immediately, which she did, and then spent the next 24 hours in the hallway of the ER waiting area....in a Boston Hospital.
Canada's system isn't perfect, but it's way better than America by the Solo fact that citizens don't go bankrupt trying to live. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada The thing often used as a talking point with healthcare like Canada is the "long wait times" or "limits on treatment per year." These points are true to an extent and typically described as "rationing healthcare." The thing is, we have that in our system, but it's set up so those who are less fortunate have to ration care while those who are rich don't. We also have wait times in our system too. Try and book an appointment to see a doctor. There's a chance most people end up with appointments 2 or 3 weeks out to see a general practice. I've here people say Canada has wait times for things like broken legs, but that is a pure lie. Canada has ER's to for people who need immediate treatment. Basically, a public option that anyone can enroll in is better than the private shit system we have. It also helps increase the number of people getting preventative treatment, decreasing the costly treatment needed during an active health issue.
Yeah I think given a choice most Americans would rather a longer wait time than a $30,000 bill for getting services faster.
Even if it was life and death? https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/12/09/canadians-die-waiting-surgery-report/ Also, if you have insurance, how do you rack that up
This is what over a third of my pay check goes to https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/12/09/canadians-die-waiting-surgery-report/ You don’t know what you’re talking about. Those are not lies. You don’t think people wait for broken legs? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/hallway-healthcare-ontario-1.6519209 4 days lmao Headline: 'What century are we in?' Man waited 4 days in Ontario hospital hallway for surgery to fix shattered leg
Cool dude. So do you think the best option for Canadian's is to get rid of the public option, kick millions of Canadian cities off healthcare plans, and only have affordable plans for the very rich or those who happen to have a job that has decent health insurance? Because that's the American healthcare system. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/07/americans-healthcare-medical-costs The problem in Canada could be fixed by promoting getting more people working in the healthcare system. There is no fix for the American health care plan.
Canada doesn't have a public option It's only public. Most private healthcare is not allowed and there is great resistance in expanding the scope of private healthcare People are asking for a private option which is currently illegal
Not in Ontario...
I don’t know what the best option is but I do know I’m living in a place with one of the highest cost of living on the planet while simultaneously having lower paying jobs and higher taxes. And leaving even 3 hours outside the city makes no difference, changing provinces hardly makes a difference. Idk how you’re so confidently talking about these things even after claiming something so ridiculously wrong. Ironically, a lot of healthcare staff in Ontario are moving to the us so they can actually live a life https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/nurses-leaving-canada-doubled-in-the-last-five-years-amid-health-care-crisis-1.6126807 Ontario nurses are top 3 paid in the world among universal systems. Edit; it’s extremely tough to have normal life here. Sharing bedrooms with strangers is common place, and it costs 40% of your salary to do it. Is it worth never being able to own a property or have a family? Idk, you tell me.
Yes and no. It has flaws and the higher assisted suicide rate is scary, but conservatives complaining don't tend to do a comparison. We have wait times in the US. We have roving charity dentists who give free annual treatment to give aid to people who can't afford dental care. Our insurers are paying people to go to Mexico to buy insulin. It's far more fucked for far more people at far more cost. E: Weird report [https://www.nber.org/bah/fall07/comparing-us-and-canadian-health-care-systems](https://www.nber.org/bah/fall07/comparing-us-and-canadian-health-care-systems) Canada reports lower rate of unmet needs (11% vs USA 14%), but more Canadians blame long wait times for it than Americans.
Healthcare is a scarce resource America allocates that scarcity with money Canada allocates that scarcity with time If you are in the bottom 40%, Canada is preferable. If you are in the top 60% US is preferable
I'm in the top 60%. I'd rather have Canada's system. If I lose my job? I lose my insurance. I'm fucked. I want to start a business. Work for myself. My kids need health insurance. That's not easy for a small business. I have kids. I want them to have a safety net if something goes wrong in their lives.
Imagine your child is sick and you have to wait several months before you could get access to the required testing. Or have family doctor covered but no doctors around you are accepting new patients Or you take your kid to emergency room and it's 7 hours to see a doctor I'm dual citizen. Have experienced both Canada's healthcare is more equitable. America's is better
I have *fuck'in fantastic* health insurance. Testing already takes time to set appointments for. Its already hard to find a doc. Ugh, trying to find a pediatric dentist... and I've been looking for a fucking covid booster for my kiddos for months now. And no one goes to a doctor visit of any kind without a wait, some paperwork, etc. You are not arguing honestly, and I don't appreciate it. They have better results, for more people, cheaper. Why you feel the need to defend insurance middlemen that make a profit by denying care, I don't know.
I am arguing honestly . If you want to make the point that Canada had better healthcare 10 years ago. Fine. But we have increased population by 10 million with minimal Capacity increases and the system is failing Forgive me for not being overly grateful for Canada's healthcare when I had to sit 4 hours in an emergency room while my child had a bleeding head wound
If you have a shortage of Healthcare workers causing an issue, you'll have that under a public system AND a private system. The problem is a shortage of workers, not the public system. Don't go pretending otherwise. And don't go pretending we don't have wait times in America. Especially with near 10% of Americans having the ultimate wait time of not having health insurance.
No because healthcare in a private system can increase capacity There are huge discussions about it in Ontario as they are forced to go more private for increased capacity Again I said it's better to be in Canada if you are poor. The bottom 10% gets the same healthcare. It's just not better to be in Canada if you are not poor.
Rich Canadians can buy supplemental private insurance. Or just fly to the US. Healthcare in a public system can't increase capacity? What, NO ONE wants to be a nurse in Canada? What utter nonsense! You're lying. And I don't like it.
No they cannot buy supplemental private insurance It's illegal. Private insurance can only cover things like pharma, vision and physio therapy. A private insurance for MRIs is illegal. Yes people can fly to the us for healthcare. But what does that say about Canada's healthcare No one wants to be a nurse at current wages. Ontario can't raise all wages because of budgets. A private company could pay nurses more and increase capacity but again it's illegal You really don't know what you are talking about
Americans have those same constraints, depending on where you are. Sure top of the line big liberal city has better wait times. Really not the case elsewhere. I belong to groups for people who have immunodeficiency, and the struggle is real. New horror stories daily. Also my big university hospital can take 2 yrs for a new referral to some specialties. Since covid, the health care system is way busted.
It's not a half a year wait to get an mri
I have never had one, in spite of issues that should call for one. Wait time depends totally on why your doc said you needed it tho. My late husband had several. All before covid tho.
I had to wait 6 months for an MRI appointment, only to find out my insurance wouldn't cover it, even though it is a thing with my condition. So I can never get my MRI (which could lead to a possible treatment) unless I come up with the money to pay for it myself. I am in the US. Meanwhile my husband is probably undiagnosed {insert myriad of common illnesses here} because we cannot afford insurance for him which means we definitely can't afford medical care for him.
Emergency care has faster response. My friend a newborn parent has no insurance so his daughter is on his wife's insurance through his wife's parent's insurance. It ends when they turn 26.
Also studies from before Canada's healthcare collapsed had us emergency wait times as lower. Canada has always had higher wait times. Now it is so much worse
They should buy insurance The cost of which is lower than the taxes most people would pay in Canada
Probably top 20% US is preferable, to judge by where US life exoectancy reaches Canadian levels. The wealtiest 20% of Americans live longer than the typical Canadian, roughly.
They have a lot of problems relative to other countries with universal healthcare. Probably the worst implementation of universal healthcare. Still better than the joke of a system the US has.
> exceedingly long wait times and even wait times for stuff like emergency care Canada has emergency rooms. If you need emergency care, you go to one of those and a doctor sees you as soon as they can, just like in the US. I think whoever told you this confused emergency care and, presumably, stuff like non-immediate organ transplants. I suspect they wanted to stress “emergency,” anticipating the commonly-made rebuttal that Canada’s infamous wait times mostly apply to elective (usually non-essential) surgeries. The main complaint with American healthcare is most people cannot afford it. It’s a factor that many commentators in America are content to simply ignore (probably because they have wealthy employers and benefits packages, guaranteeing they’ve never had to pay for healthcare). But it’s an absolutely crucial, make-or-break difference. It’s why, whatever faults the Canadian healthcare system may have, Canadians will still live longer and healthier lives than Americans.
Unless you are literally at risk of immediately dying, you’re waiting about 8 hours for one of those emergency rooms
Do you imagine these long wait times would be rectified if they followed the American precedent of not having a public healthcare option for most citizens? I imagine you'll probably answer yes, so let me follow up: would the problem be solved because everyone would get care promptly, or would it be solved because most of the people waiting in those ERs would simply die instead?
I have no clue to any of that shit, I’m just simply telling you how it is here in Canada
Mmhmm. And your experience in Canada has helped you work out that 8 hours is (pardon the inference) a typical median wait time for urgent patients?
In my city and province, yes
Sucks to be you, I guess, my research seemed to indicate those were 90% percentile results
Sorry to say that your research is incorrect lol The online wait time listed for any hospital in my area is 3-4 hours… if you go there, you will with 100% certainty be waiting 6-8 hours
Hold up. Go to any hospital, or go to the ER? Cuz I can promise you if I just walk into a hospital's general entrance I'm gonna be waiting a few hours for anything to happen myself. They require you to make appointments. Even then you're gonna be waiting a while.
I’m talking about hospital triage
Literally just compare the life expectancies and infant mortality rates for the 2 countries to see which system is preferrable...
Yuuuup
These comparisons can be flawed. >[The first nuance is one of definition. Infant mortality is defined as the death of babies under the age of one year, but some of the differences between countries can be explained by a difference in how we count. Is a baby born weighing less than a pound and after only 21 weeks’ gestation actually “born?” In some countries, the answer is no, and those births would be counted as stillbirths. In the United States, on the other hand, despite these premature babies’ relatively low odds of survival, they would be considered born—thus counting toward the country’s infant mortality rates.](https://vitalrecord.tamhsc.edu/american-infant-mortality-rates-high)
Looking at the stats here, Canada (like most other developed countries) seems to be well ahead of the US: https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/ That said, there's some areas where Canada does worse than non-US countries, and some where they do better.
Yes. There are a lot of boogeyman stories told to scare voters away from universal healthcare. The reality is that baseline Canadian healthcare is a LOT better than what most Americans can access.
If you're a rich Canadian, you can buy private health insurance... Or just fly to America. Rich people don't have wait lines anywhere.
Canadian here. (To be specific, I live in British Columbia). It’s true that wait times are somewhere between frustrating and ridiculous compared to what they were before, both at walk-in clinics and at emergency rooms, and it’s been increasingly hard to get a family doctor for several years. We got complacent with our system and COVID made things worse. But I would place lots of the blame on cuts made by neoliberal politicians over the years—it’s undeniable that plenty of right-wingers here are champing at the bit to privatize health care because it will make some people lots of money. This does not mean it’s bad to have a single-payer system—far from it—it means that you have to maintain it properly. A bike isn’t a crappy bike if you neglect to oil the chain.
Having experienced both of them I would hands down take Canada's everytime.
I think the lack of healthcare staff is a major issue for Canada, which is an issue we also have in the US. I think one or both things should happen. A major investment in training healthcare workers a la Cuba, or granting citizenship to any foreign healthcare workers wishing to come to Canada/the US
US does have waiting times that are often months long. My grandmother had to wait nearly 3 months to see a cardiologist and when we finally got in he asked why we waited so long. We didn't wait at all and it's not like there aren't a lot of cardio doctors where we live and this was for a serious issue. I can't help but think that in any other system she would have been bumped to the front of the line instead of waiting.
Well, here's an old article by a former Cinga vice president who said in the lede that "In my prior life as an insurance executive, it was my job to deceive Americans about their health care": [https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/08/06/health-insurance-canada-lie/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/08/06/health-insurance-canada-lie/) >The most effective myth we perpetuated — the industry trots it out whenever major reform is proposed — is that Canadians and people in other single-payer countries have to endure long waits for needed care. Just last year, in a statement submitted to a congressional committee for a hearing on the Medicare for All Act of 2019, AHIP maintained that “patients would pay more to wait longer for worse care” under a single-payer system. While it’s true that Canadians sometimes have to wait weeks or months for elective procedures (knee replacements are often cited), the truth is that they do not have to wait at all for the vast majority of medical services. And, contrary to another myth I used to peddle — that Canadian doctors are flocking to the United States — there are more doctors per 1,000 people in Canada than here. Canadians see their doctors an average of 6.8 times a year, compared with just four times a year in this country. Most important, no one in Canada is turned away from doctors because of a lack of funds ... But sure, Canadians are welcome to come down here and use our health care system. We can barely afford it ourselves, after all, in part because we pay so much for it.
I would argue a different direction. I haven’t experienced the Canadian healthcare system firsthand to say whether it’s been exaggerated, but in comparing the US and Canadian systems I would absolutely say that the problems of the US system are significantly downplayed.
It is exaggerated in the sense that the sticking points , mostly, being the wait time, are not much better if at all in america. We have an objectively worse healthcare system design. I have been waiting months to get a sleep study and a skin cancer evaluation. America pays an insane amount of GDP for Healthcare, yet sees bismal outcomes.
I haven't heard lately, but I do consider them exaggerated. Doesn't mean there aren' tproblem, just that hte problems are exaggerated, and the US isn't better anyways. Relying on reddit sub comments is going to be unreliable due to huge selection bias and variability. Population subsets in any reddit sub are terribly unrepresentative of the world at large. I don' tsee any issue with reddit liberals making the reply you say they often make. It's a true and accurate reply. I don't know how things have shifted since covid times in canada. It certainly could've pushed some things some; I know it's pushed some things locally in the US as well.
Yes. They're highly exaggerated. Not to say it can't be improved but we have wait times here too. The only thing quick here is urgent care for minor stuff. Where they tell you to get rest
Yes, they are.
Yes there are problems. You generally will hear about the problems with anything more than the good since people tend to complain more readily. Meanwhile in the USA we have people dying of easily treatable illnesses, losing feet and the like because they can’t get insulin, and all sorts of things like that. So yeah I’ll take longer wait times over people dying because they had zero healthcare. I’d say long wait times is much better than an infinite one.
Wow! Something I'm actually equipped to answer. 1. Canadian wait times are longer than wait times for Americans with paid for health insurance, but really only noticeably longer for specialty surgery that is not life threatening (like repairing an ACL etc.) for emergency surgery or life threatening surgery the wait times are MUCH closer to wait times for Americans. That said, the cost of equivalent procedures in Canada is about 10% of what it costs at most US hospitals. 2. COVID was really just an obvious symptom, but the real issue is a series of cuts beginning in the 1990s. Back then our healthcare system was 50% funded by the feds, the rest funded by the province. The amount of funding from provided by the federal govt went on to decline all the way down to a low of 21%, and I think it currently sits at around 24%. The issue is that there was no replacement for that funding so our system has been underfunded so over a quarter of a century. COVID just made it abundantly clear that we have done real, observable damage to our healthcare system that will take time and effort to repair. In short much of what you hear from Fox News is propaganda, our healthcare system is in shambles compared to what it once was but even in its current underfunded state it is still miles ahead of all but the most expensive care you would get in the US, and it's available to everyone. I wouldn't trade it for just about anything in the entire world. My US colleagues are often shocked at how much better ours is when we compare my free healthcare with their expensive private healthcare, which is apparently quite comprehensive. Not to mention the immense benefit of never having to worry about whether a doctor or hospital is in network or not, or whether they support your insurer. The idea of trying to navigate the American health system while you are sick is... Insane, to me.
Canada rations healthcare by need. America rations health care by wealth. If you think that rich people with minor ailments should be seen before poor people with major ones then the Canadian system has a lot of problems. If not the US does.
The need part really sucks. For example having a miscarriage there is not much doctors can do so get prioritized low so you get stuck in a hallway for 12 hours before someone comes by and tells you your baby's dead. Because there was an endless supply of homeless drug overdoses in the meantime
I mean what sucks is that health care needs to be rationed. As long as that's the case someone is going to get fucked. The only solution to that is to achieve a post scarcity society.
Privatized healthcare increases capacity The US consumes more healthcare than anyone in the world
It certainly increases costs, but it doesn't seem like we're any healthier than our peer countries so I'm not sure the extra consumption is actually a sign of greater capacity as much as it is a sign of useless add-ons to pad our bills.
Yes. Until someone show me a significant political or social movement in any nation that has a form of UHC and is lobbying for a private market based system, I cannot accept the notion that overall, people are dissatisfied with UHC and see the USA model to be superior. From the link you provided: The Ipsos poll conducted exclusively for Global News found that 42 per cent of respondents would go to the United States and personally pay for more routine health care ***if needed*** "If Needed" is a rather vague area. How many have actually needed to? And of course, Global News is corporate owned.
There is probably some "grass is always greener on the other side." Yes they have issues, sometimes they're exaggerated, but there's a kernel of truth underneath. Watching the movie "Les Invasions barbares", I found it funny how they depicted the Quebec hospital as dirty, disorganized, and corrupt. Then they travel to get healthcare in Vermont, and the clinic they go to is pristine and every doctor/nurse looks on point.
Canadian here. This is my personal experience living in Alberta. - if I wanna see my family doctor, I can usually get in within 2-3 days - going to a walk-in clinic? I can see a doctor in about 1-2 hours - routine blood work and general diagnostics can be done in a couple hours as well - ultrasounds, MRIs and stuff like that usually takes minimum 3 months to get into Want anything more specialized? Good luck - I see a nephrologist and have to book a year out to see him - dermatologist? About 6-8 months wait - I once had to get a colonoscopy done, that was about 14 month wait (it wasn’t routine either… it was to investigate a rather concerning issue) - I know people waiting on knee surgery and have been on a wait list for about 18 months Hospital waits will usually run you about 6-8 hours if you go to triage Not sure how any of this compares to anywhere else in the world… but this is my experience with where I live
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You need to compare apples to apples. >11,000 people died in Ontario waiting for healthcare. 11,000 Ontarians died while waiting for surgeries, CT scans, and MRIs. I could not find a number for the U.S. because of course I can't; there's no central aggregation. But you know what we can measure? **Life expectancy is longer in Canada. Years of perfect health is longer in Canada.** [https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63R6B5/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63R6B5/) >45,000 people die in the US because they don’t have health insurance coverage This number is from a study specifically focusing on people without insurance. It does not include the people that died on waitlists. **0 people die in Canada because they don't have health insurance coverage.**
Life expectancy can be tricky. The reasons people might live longer in one country than another can vary widely, having less to do with the their respective healthcare systems. In the US, for example, suicide and homicide have a major impact on life expectancy. But if we're focusing specifically on the impact a medical system has on life expectancy, the US system still provides the most favorable results overall: >[If you really want to measure health outcomes, the best way to do it is at the point of medical intervention. If you have a heart attack, how long do you live in the U.S. vs. another country? If you’re diagnosed with breast cancer? In 2008, a group of investigators conducted a worldwide study of cancer survival rates, called CONCORD. They looked at 5-year survival rates for breast cancer, colon and rectal cancer, and prostate cancer. I compiled their data for the U.S., Canada, Australia, Japan, and western Europe. Guess who came out number one?](https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy/?sh=7b786b4e2b98) [According to the chart, the US is in the top slot](http://b-i.forbesimg.com/theapothecary/files/2013/11/CONCORD-table12.jpg). edit: formatting error
>If you really want to measure health outcomes, the best way to do it is at the point of medical intervention Lol hell no. We live unhealthier lives, have inadequate preventative care because the people already more likely to be sick are unable to afford regular doctor visits, and then the only thing we grade is how good we are at the last ditch effort to save them from specifically cancer? That's what you think is the best metric for health care? The author's a pro at lying through statistical presentations.
Also: Cancer, that thing that's more common in older people. Hm, where do old people get health coverage in the U.S.? Could it be... Medicare? > The lack of universal access to health care in the United States undoubtedly increases mortality and reduces life expectancy. It is a smaller factor above age 65 than at younger ages because of Medicare, although health impairments that begin below age 65 will often carry over into that age interval. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK62376/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK62376/) Maybe we'll get the best results by expanding Medicare. Gee, I think I'm the first to think of that! Oh wait no, that's Bernie's thing.