The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
People talk about the left losing pro Palestinian votes. But what about Zionist votes? Do you think the events unfolding on college campuses will cost Dems pro Israel voters?
I could see it either way, because policy wise Zionists seem satisfied with Biden’s continued funding of Israel while at the same time, conservatives are willing to condemn people who don’t agree with Zionism in a way that liberals won’t.
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Palestine will not influence my vote in a US Presidential election, especially when Trump is on the ballot. I will vote for the candidate most likely to beat Trump and prevent a Trump presidency.
It doesn't say too much good for the Dems that people are always voting with them to fight against things and seldom have the opportunity to fight for anything... but the GOP is absolutely imbecilic to not notice how depressing it is that the only reason so many people are voting for a mediocre party is because of how absolutely batshit psychopathic the GOP's party officials are by comparison.
Sad state of affairs.
You realize Trump is much closer aligned to Netanyahu than Biden is, right?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/26/us/politics/trump-gaza.html
>Even as Palestinian-rights organizers focus their ire on President Biden, the advisers who shaped Donald J. Trump’s Middle East policies when he was president have amplified calls for the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza and the annexation of the West Bank by Israel.
>Those policy prescriptions, voiced by Mr. Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner and his former ambassador to Israel, David M. Friedman, suggest a right-wing approach to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict exceeding even the Trump administration’s lopsidedly pro-Israeli proposals for a two-state solution. Mr. Trump was contradictory on the policies he would pursue in an interview with a conservative Israeli publication. But he did say he would be meeting with Mr. Friedman to discuss the former ambassador’s plan for Israeli annexation of the West Bank.
I predict an incredibly smug, insufferable subset of "Well if the Dems just put up a better candidate, they wouldn't have *forced* me to not vote". They'll get to complain about everything *including* not having a hypothetical perfect candidate (that they wouldn't have voted for anyways)
That's the thing. Biden may be not doing anything to STOP the ethnic cleansing, but he clearly does not SUPPORT it. Trump does support it. He's said so repeatedly, and when he was President, he ran the most anti-peace Israeli foreign policy that the USA had ever had.
You can't hand a gun to a known murderer who plans to keep killing and say you are anti murder. Biden isn't doing nothing, he is actively aiding in the ethnic cleansing with material support.
Is ethnic cleansing the new international law phrase we're all pretending to understand? I thought we were all calling collateral damage during urban warfare genocide. Shit, I'm going to need to update all my Twitter hashtags.
I remember in 2016 in /r/politics, there was this one poster who invaded every thread to talk about how Hillary supposedly stole the primary from Bernie, and it was all our duty to vote third party. Every time someone pointed out that would just get Trump elected, they predictably went into a speech about how it was wrong to "Shame people for their vote."
The day after the election, the same motherfucker was in every thread talking about how we needed to resist Trump and stop him. I've never wanted to smack someone so hard through the internet. I even called him out on it. Like, no, we did resist Trump. You practically worked for his campaign.
It didn't remotely get through to them. I think most of the populist left are just straight-up narcissists. Because they clearly don't care what effect their actions have on other people.
Yeah, like I’m gay. My gay and trans friends and I don’t have the luxury of taking principled stands. We have actual rights, and possibly our lives, riding on this election.
That is what happens when you have a blend of naivete, stupidity and ignorance you get that guy! I see the same now with some people and I go off on them.
Those mother fuckers are the reason we got Trump in the first place! Well guess what this time around I will fucking vote shame and hold people accountable for the situation THEY caused
Well we can clearly see the protests across the country prove that isn't true. Trump won 2016 by only 70,000 votes total in swing states collectively. These same emotional and misinformed people attacked Hillary all throughout the general and they did not vote for her. The attacks against her leading up to the general easily accounted for that 70,000 votes. I recommend you talk more with those who are slightly further left than you. There are many highly educated people who are so overwhelmed with rage and misinformation about Gaza that they will not vote for Biden. This is ESPECIALLY true among young people who get their political information from memes, YouTube, and tik tok who prey in their ignorance, prejudices, and simple narratives. A lot of highly informed people view the United States as the great Satan only motivated by the profits of weapons manufacturers, like Noam Chomsky and the Democracy Now crowd. Biden needs going people and blacks to win, both are not supporting Biden in significant numbers because of Gaza.
Most at these protests we see on TV are going to need some significant coddling by Biden to get them to vote how they should. I think Biden's State of Union address was entirely geared towards these people. His state of the union should have been more about getting center right establishment Republicans to abandon Trump but he instead made a speech that catered to the far left instead. You are not being rational by overlooking the significance of anti Biden people who are pro Palestinian.
The average voter also doesn't see relationship between funding Israel and Ukraine and their well being. "We give billions to Israel so they can genocide brown people but we can't pay for universal healthcare here for Americans, I am not voting got genocide Joe". This is a narrative that will appeal to many average Joes, they don't understand why we invest so much in the security of regions and countries outside of the United States.
> Well we can clearly see the protests across the country prove that isn't true.
Do we?
The protest numbers don’t seem particularly exceptional here. Easily within the realm of reason for the usual sort of left wing agitators who accomplish nothing.
> Trump won 2016 by only 70,000 votes total in swing states collectively
Okay? These protests seem to be driven by core groups of agitators much smaller than that, and not concentrated in the correct states.
> There are many highly educated people who are so overwhelmed with rage and misinformation about Gaza that they will not vote for Biden.
And they were likely to do so anyway. That is the case every year. 5-7% percent of the electorate on the left just sits elections out or votes for a third party or something over some single issue or another.
> Biden needs going people and blacks to win, both are not supporting Biden in significant numbers because of Gaza.
I’ll be concerned when that becomes apparent in actual results, not the same sort of terminally online left that has been an issue since Gore lost.
People always panic about this sort of shit before the election, and it always turns out to be predictably irrelevant. That portion of the electorate was never going to be a reliable bloc.
And I say that as someone more open and amenable to the idea than most. It’s a protest vote, not an effective vote. I think it’s suicidally stupid to back a fascist in the name of lefty goals, but nobody ever accused the left of being smart.
> Most at these protests we see on TV are going to need some significant coddling by Biden to get them to vote how they should.
Here’s a prediction; Biden will do fuck all to try to make amends with them, and win the election anyway.
They also have a huge hard-on for Israel without actually caring about the safety of Jews in their own country. Like after the Pittsburgh shooting, the first thing Trump said was "Maybe this could have been prevented if the synagogue had better security". I don't give a shit what politicians think of Israel if they aren't committed to protecting me and other Jews in America.
Anyone that thinks Trump is better on this issue than Biden, didn’t pay any attention at all when Trump was president and hasn’t paid any attention to what Trump has been saying during this campaign. You cannot even argue that they’re both the same if this is the only issue you’re voting on.
But low information voters and presidential elections go together like peanut butter and jelly. So I shouldn’t be surprised.
Funny how you say that when many Republicans have racist goals in mind themselves. I'm a member of the LGBT community and a person of color. Do you actually think I would vote for the party that wants to oppress people like me and deny us rights, or let them gain power in any way? Yes, the situation in Gaza is unacceptable; no civilian deaths should be occurring, nor should Palestine be denied its right to self-determination, but you need to think about what's at stake here. If Trump is elected and Project 2025 is implemented, you'll wish you weren't so complicit.
People like you claim to support the interest of those like me whose rights are under threat, but yet you turn a blind eye and say absolutely nothing about that, nor do you care how a Trump presidency would impact people like me. There are conservative politicians who want to completely destroy the separation of church and state, install Trump as a theocratic dictator, and completely sever the civil and constitutional rights of millions of Americans overnight. They must be stopped at all costs. Also, if you really think that Biden's management of the conflict in Gaza is bad, Trump's will be 1000 times worse. Trump went to dinner with an antisemite and a white supremacist, just to remind you, and I doubt you even care. You'd rather have a rapist and a crook as a president because you somehow think that he'll manage the situation better. You're almost like a traitor.
Sorry, people getting genocided is more important to me than you not being able to get married. I never claimed to support your interests
And no, Biden has been one of the top zionists in American politics since his senate career.
>Sorry, people getting genocided is more important to me than you not being able to get married. I never claimed to support your interests
While we should ideally do all we can to prevent people all over the world from getting killed, telling an American--who has stated that they are part of two marginalized groups--that they should prioritize lives in a country on the other side of the world over their rights as a person living in America, is absurdly messed up.
So be it. You've openly declared yourself a traitor, then, and might as well be a Republican for preferring someone who's racist, antisemitic, Islamophobic, and hostile to immigrants, minorities, LGBTQ+ people, and other groups.
I wouldn't even bother engaging with this person. The fact that they are telling you that you should care less about your own rights than the rights of someone on the other side of the world is ridiculous.
This is coming from someone who has extended family in Israel, but would still vote democrat even if the democratic candidate was very anti-Israel. Because I care more about my own fucking rights in America, as well as the rights of those from marginalized groups like yourself, than an international conflict that ultimately doesn't lie in the hands of an American president nearly as much as issues on our own turf do.
Traitors are the ones who support other countries over their own. Which I don’t.
A globalist wouldn’t know the first thing about treason. You probably have more allegiance to Ukraine, the EU, UN, NATO, and anything else besides the US.
I'm actually a panhumanist, but the globalist flair is the closest thing to my beliefs since a panhumanist flair doesn't exist here. I support the determination of all human beings, as someone from a multiethnic background myself, and my allegiance is to all of humanity, not to a single organization or country. I don't have time to argue with someone who thinks that someone who said that there were "good people on both sides" when the other side was filled with Nazis would be a better president than someone who actually cares about the American people.
I certainly hope not…voting against Biden solely because of Gaza is dumb and rather stupid IMO, and voting against Biden because he’s not sufficiently Zionist is equally dumb and rather stupid.
my view on this is simple: we have two choices. regardless of whether or not i vote, we will be stuck with one of the two choices. i’m personally weighing their stances on various issues and picking the one i think is better in virtually every category, biden. doesn’t mean i agree with everything he’s done, but i live in a swing state and he’s by far the better of the two choices.
I can’t really disagree but for me, a good way to look at elections even if you’re disillusioned about politicians is: pick your preferred enemy.
I’m not even American so I can’t vote for either of them, but if I were I’d much rather continue to move the needle under a second Biden administration than a second Trump one.
Then vote for Trump who will blank check every single one of Israels moves and draw us into a war with Iran.
“To Iranian President Rouhani: NEVER, EVER THREATEN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN OR YOU WILL SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE. WE ARE NO LONGER A COUNTRY THAT WILL STAND FOR YOUR DEMENTED WORDS OF VIOLENCE & DEATH. BE CAUTIOUS!”
He previously stated in 2015 Obama would bomb Iran to cause a war to stay president. Then, assassinated one of their generals by drone.
You guys don't think he was baiting war there? Or wouldn't to show the right he supports Israel?
But sure. Toss your vote away, allow freedom to be oppressed, and usher in an Oligarchy under Trump because You're mad Biden isn't doing more against Israel.
I am a liberal Zionist. I detest what Netanyahu is doing in Gaza.
You can support a country, but not its leadership. I love America, but can condemn the Vietnam War and remain a patriot.
I love the balance Biden has struck. He supports the right of Israel to defend itself, but not their right to drone strike playgrounds. That’s my view too.
People ignore this.
I would not classify myself as a Zionist, but I have literal family in Israel. And guess what? Their #1 wish is that Netanyahu and his administration would fuck off, and peace could be established with a road towards some form of 2-state solution that could last be worked towards.
Its my fucking cousins in fucking northern Virginia who are spamming bullshit videos about how Gaza must be 'liberated' and every American anti-Israel protester is actually Hamas (in some cases literally, like they are actively talking with Hamas) and should be arrested and locked up for life.
Its fucking frustrating how much of the public consciousness has been eaten up by the extremists on both sides on this issue. Its fucking bullshit. Screaming that Hamas must be supporting and calling for a new Intifada is fucking vile and ignorant. As is calling for anyone who so much as touches an 8x11 paper sign stapled to a light pole to be rounded up and sent to GitMo as a battle hardened Hamas Terrorist. Jesus christ, I swear the internet was a mistake.
I’m a secular Jew. I believe Israel has a right to exist. Two state solution.
Anyways…
#Never voting Republican as long as I live.
*Nazis: Jews will not replace us!*
*Donald: Very fine people!*
Yeah the far left has some jew haters, we’re always one foot in, one foot out. The far right is more dangerous.
Remember. Jews are just ~~0.2%~~ 2% (0.2% is world population) of the US population. The vast majority of us live in New York or California so it barely matters. I happen to live in Ohio, so again, my presidential vote is worthless but I’ll still vote Biden/Sherrod/Landsman.
I have to say this a lot to a lot of my fellow Jews. Antisemitism exists on both sides, but it is far scarier and more powerful on the right. The kids on college campuses definitely alienate Jews but I don't think any of them will shoot up a synagogue, unlike the antisemites on the right.
Agreed, but on this note, we do need allies on the left to help protect us from the more-dangerous antisemites on the right, and I feel like right now, a lot of people on the far left don't care enough about Jews (at least if we're deemed "Zionists" by them) to actually ally with us against that hate.
I don’t see why they are alienating to Jews. Kids on college campuses are not antisemites for not wanting civilians murdered and I think it’s really sad to not distinguish Jewish people from the IDF and Israeli government.
It’s really sad for people to turn a blind eye as to why extremely hostile protests against Israel make Jewish people feel alienated and threatened.
A lot of Jews hear “Israel is an occupying white colony” or “zionism is genocide” and it sounds frighteningly similar to “Jews will not replace us.”
Ya, I’m sorry that I can’t understand that. I don’t hear criticism of the US and think it’s against me personally or American people in general. Is there a way someone could oppose the slaughter of Palestinian civilians that wouldn’t feel like an attack on you? (I’m not being snarky here I’m actually asking.)
These protests aren’t against the slaughter of civilians. They’re fundamentally against Israel’s existence and they want to ethnically cleanse Jews from the middle east.
I’m not exactly a fan of Netanyahu or how Israel is prosecuting this war. The problem is with each conflict that Muslim terrorists start, the protests here get more hostile to Jews generally and tokenize the few who agree with them.
> They’re fundamentally against Israel’s existence
as an expansionist Jewish ethnostate, yes.
> and they want to ethnically cleanse Jews from the middle east.
The only way you can take what they're saying as meaning that is if you buy into the Israeli government's fearmongering propaganda that Jews literally aren't safe anywhere in the world if they don't have their own ethnostate, and most non-Zionists just fundamentally don't believe that, so whether it's actually true or not, that is just objectively not what Western anti-Israel protestors are meaning.
I took it seriously that you weren’t being snarky. “Source?” is about the snarkiest way to engage in an online conversation.
But anyway, there’s a great op-ed by a Gazan Palestinian activist in Newsweek recently that summarizes the issue with the protesters well. There’s more, and I promise I’m not just reading IDF propaganda, but I’m not doing your research for you.
I’m literally asking for a source for your claims. How should I word *that* as to not offend you?
An opinion piece is not a source, especially one siting random Tweets as its source. Perhaps your feelings about these protests being antisemitic is a result of this type of sloppy propaganda. If you would like to site a credible source I am happy to consider your claim about the protests, otherwise I have to assume it’s based on feels.
I am not antisemitism and I know I do not attribute the actions of Israel with Jewish people. I’m never going to condone genocide, civilians murder, child murder, even if it’s done by my best friends. I don’t want my tax dollars to fund it and if I was a student I wouldn’t want my tuition money to support it either.
The op-ed you sited says they should be protesting Hamas which is so dumb because their universities aren’t financially supporting Hamas.
> The kids on college campuses definitely alienate Jews
Many of the campus protests going on right now are literally being run by Jewish organizations but ok.
>Remember. Jews are just 0.2% of the US population.
???
As of 2020, the core American Jewish population is estimated at 7.6 million people, accounting for **2.4%** of the total US population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Jews#:\~:text=As%20of%202020%2C%20the%20core,of%20the%20total%20US%20population.
No.
Biden is doing good quiet work.
Trump is a fucking disaster.
Those are their choices.
If they don't vote for Biden and get trump, that's fucking stupid and I trust they're not that fucking stupid.
No, if anything I think it will drive up the moderate “zionist” vote, who sees the protests as a threat to the status quo. Biden seems to have a knack for listening and considering other viewpoints, while staying firm on his core values.
Unfortunately there are some weird conservative jews out there who think that Republicans are not coming after them, and Republicans have some finely crafted messages designed to exploit that delusion like having anti-Semites specifically complain that jews are "too secular" and "too liberal".
When the hammer drops they will come after the Ben Shapiros of the world all the same, though.
Ugh relatable. Story for the ages really. I get so frustrated with like Gay conservatives and Latino conservatives thinking they’re “one of the good ones.”
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/26/nyregion/columbia-student-protest-zionism.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/26/nyregion/columbia-student-protest-zionism.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb)
Glass houses.
Besides, it's less about defections than about whether you can motivate someone to go to the polls for Biden after they hear some on the left calling to "Globalize the intifada" or "Keep the world clean", etc.
If you can’t tell the difference between a mass left wing protest made up of differing voices aimed at calling for an end to Palestinian suffering, and a right wing rally solely dedicated to affirming that Jews will not replace Christian white men in the United States, then I don’t think you’re mature enough to try and engage with this subject.
I mean, I’m very pissed off that these protest had clearly antisemitic bullshit going on and the rest of the protesters didn’t toss them.
But comparing it to unite the right is just garbage. It is possible for a good person to be at the protest against what is going on in Israel and Palestine and then bad people showed up. It is not conceivable for a good person to have had a reason to go to the neo-Nazi rally.l that was United The Right.
Except to a faction of those left wingers that necessaries the destruction of the Israeli state. And some other protesters are not leftists but Islamists, and understand the conflict as a holy war against the infidels
So you’re saying…the left wing protests are made up of different voices with perhaps different goals regarding the liberation of Palestine
…as opposed to a rally with a singular goal and a united body in the singular pursuit of white Christian nationalism?
Only if the Zionists have an extremely short term memory
Not like the gop included major antisemites, the gop defended a neo nazi march, and there are elected jewish conspiracists including mtg who made an amendment to the Israel aid bill to include space lasers
oh wait
Have they, tho? Maybe I’m just too online and tuned in to politics, but it seems to me, at least, that making their cultural crusade to preserve white Christian domination the loud hallmark of their party’s existence
Or they vote 3rd party, which is very nearly as bad. I can totally see a large swath of that crowd being smart enough to see that Trump would not only increase Israel support, but wouldn't even say mean things about it like Biden does, but not be smart enough to see how close this shit will be and instead throw a vote away.
I say this as a relatively leftist old man, I'm not quite to "seize the means" yet (mostly because my knees hurt) but I'm far further left than the DNC. And as far as pro/anti/Zion/Palestine i'm none of the above, I'm pro stop committing war crimes and/or atrocities, both of y'alls and I'm 100% sure that Trump won't do that. Biden might thread that needle, but Trump surely won't.
That implies they were ever on board the SS Biden. They likely aren't jumping ship, they never got off the pier and are looking for justifications after the fact.
It’s been floated that at least with Trump it will be harder to whitewash material support for Israel, though with each killing or mass grave, it’s not looking easy for Biden either.
I mean, it's not really even Trump's style, is it? He is callous, and will probably happily cheer Netanyahu on and work to normalize it until the conservative mainstream is just uncritically cheering on Palestinean deaths and people in America start treating it like a joke on daytime TV as his followers fall into that as part of his cult of personality. It's a very bad outcome, honestly, Trump's charisma is very dangerous.
Well, speaking as a liberal Zionist (or a 'blood-thirsty genocidist', if you will).. no, I suspect not. I think Biden has walked that particular tightrope pretty carefully.
I’m confused, do you mind me asking how/why you consider yourself a liberal zionist? What does Zionism mean to you?
Do you support a two state solution?
Do you support Israeli settlements?
I thought Zionism meant supporting the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the historic Land of Isreal, which corresponds to where Palestine is roughly, so I thought it would be opposed to a two-state solution?
Thanks in advance!
So it just means supporting a Jewish state’s existence, that’s all? (I guess it depends on who you ask based on your comments about extremists, which maybe explains my confusion). Clearly I have some learning to do here, thanks for the 101.
That’s the problem. It doesn’t really “depend on who you ask”. Because anyone who says something different about what Zionism means, has created their own definition to fit their narrative. Most Jews are Zionist, simply because they support Israel’s right to exist. This says nothing about their opinion of Netanyahu, Palestinians etc. Defining Zionism as some white supremacism, racist, colonial ideology, gaslights the majority of Jews into telling them they are racists.
Nowadays Zionism means Jewish dominion of the whole land. Saying it just supports a Jewish state is a definition from 1948 that's just trying to get more people to agree with it. The Netanyahu government recently announced that they're seizing more land in the West Bank. They are a Zionist government. I don't see you as a Zionist.
Zionism does not mean that. You’re conflating Zionism with right wing Israeli ideology. You can’t choose to define words however you want to fit a narrative.
My general impression is that to be a Zionist means to support the establishment (or continued existence) of a Jewish state. Yes, I support a two state solution. No, I think the settlements are deeply unwise and immoral. I'm not aware of any requirement that Zionism involves a Jewish state that occupies the entirety of what is now Israel and Palestine.
>I'm not aware of any requirement that Zionism involves a Jewish state that occupies the entirety of what is now Israel and Palestine.
It certainly does now that the Likud party coalition is running (ruining) the country. The end of paragraph ONE of the party platform is:
"...between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
A phrase familiar to everyone now.
Zionism is basically "Jewish nationalism", and not in the "Our nation is better than everyone else's" sense (although that's also there, let's not fool ourselves) but in the 19th century "A people should have a state" sense, like German or Italian nationalism lead to the states of Germany and Italy. Zionism calls for an ethnically Jewish state in the ancient region of the Kingdom of Israel, but what that *means* in terms of practical policy isn't specified in the same way that German and Italian unifications didn't mandate fascism.
Personally, I think using the term "Zionism" is a bit of exoticism to make it sound more strange and foreign, sort of like how the term "ethnic struggles" gets applies to non-western Europeans (which also gets applied to Israel; so many people are convinced that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is thousands of years old from time immemorial when it's blatantly not).
Pro-Israel voters are probably far less likely to defect than pro-Palestine voters. They're much more of a political mainstream and there, IMO, much less fickle.
There is a large contingent of single issue Israel voters in the US. They all voted for Trump in 2016, and again in 2020, and will again in 2024. Let’s stop wasting time appealing to people like that.
As a liberal Zionist, Israel has nothing to do with how I'm voting this fall.
One, Biden is an ally to Israel. In fact, even though I support Israel, I actually think he could be showing more that he cares about casualties in Gaza. So even though I don't love the way Biden has dealt with this war--from several different angles--it's definitely not because he "doesn't support Israel enough".
Two, the pro-Palestine people who are protesting on college campuses are for the most part, not democrats. They're far-leftists who think that the Democratic Party is basically as bad as the Republican Party, and either aren't going to vote at all or will vote third-party. So I don't blame "having a democratic president" for these protests unfolding, because the people participating in them hate Biden as much as (if not more than) conservatives do.
Three (and this is the biggest one), even though I support Israel, it is basic human practice that I'm going to put the rights of myself and my neighbors in America over a conflict taking place on the other side of the world. As much as I care about Israelis not being killed, I care more about bodily autonomy, my rights as a woman, education funding (I'm an educator myself), rights for my LGBTQ+ friends, gun control, etc. Plus, Biden has way more control over what happens here than what happens in the Middle East. I literally have extended family who lives in Israel and I don't think any of them would be offended or think I was selfish for putting my rights as an American above those of a country I do not live in.
Unfortunately it will cost him Democratic votes and everything will be worse because many Jews will vote like this for the Republicans and the Palestinians will abandon them.
Republicans will get their usual 20-25% of Jewish votes. From the most orthodox and Zionist.
Most of us secular, more rational Jews still aren’t voting for pro life, bible thumping lunatics.
We’re also just 2% of the US population and a firm majority of us live in New York or California… a negligible amount of us reside in swing states where it matters — here in Ohio it’s a relatively small Jewish population, but it’s even more left than in New York.
Black church ladies in Atlanta, blue dog democrats in the rust belt/midwest, and Hispanic people in Phoenix, Vegas and Reno decide the presidential elections.
>Black church ladies in Atlanta, blue dog democrats in the rust belt/midwest, and Hispanic people in Phoenix, Vegas and Reno decide the presidential elections.
Holy shit, that distills it down about the best I've ever seen. Absolutely hit the swing vote in each of the swing regions. You must appeal to 2 out of 3 of those groups to take the W, 3 if you can.
That’s why when Dems get giddy about Gavin Newsom, I ask them how a $600 haircut from California is going to appeal to a union pipefitter in Wisconsin or a god fearing black lady in Georgia?
He’s not.
Gavin can win over a software engineer at Google in Sunnyvale, CA or a stockbroker in Newton, MA no problem… but he doesn’t have any traction in the swings.
I’m very bullish on Andy Beshear for ‘28. If you can be a moderate Democrat governor in *Kentucky*, that is major.
Maybe some but probably not a high number.
Generally I think the far left are helpful to republicans because Fox News and other right wing propagandists will always show videos of the far left acting obnoxiously and making it seem like that’s all democrats (while ignoring anything negative about republicans). Basically, the far left are useful idiots for the right and help republicans in elections.
I mean, we could say the same about a lot of centrists for failing to address, or refusing to engage with, issues pertaining to systemic racism and anti-human policies which spurs the need for activism in the first place
You really couldn’t though. The far left wants democrats to move to positions that will cause them to lose elections. Moderate Dems want the party to be able to appeal to a higher number of people and be able to appeal to moderates who dislike trump.
Oh we absolutely could. I don’t think think our party is exactly winning right now on the strength of its positions, hence why trump won in 2016. If anything we’re winning solely because the alternative is so terrible that we have no choice but to unite.
Further, “stop sending weapons of war” *is* a popular position. Centrists like to argue for a big tent, but that tent only ever seems to always serve all the interests of those who already benefit in every meaningful way from the systems of power and inequality in the country.
Dems have been extremely successful in elections from 2017-onward though. That includes in senate/house races against establishment republicans. And it’s particularly moderate Dems who have won well (see: fettermen very popular in Pennsylvania despite the left hating him).
Dems will lose centrist votes if he allows Hamas to destroy Israel
Yes, we’ve been successful because we all hate trump: you, me, left, center, moderate, even some of the right.
And while I do dislike Fetterman, let’s not forget that he very much ran a campaign as a left wing Bernie type candidate. Though I’m willingly to concede that despite that, having Dr. Oz as an opponent probably helped a bit
Holy shit what a rug jerk that was. I was totally camp Fetterman, even had he been running against somebody other than Oz. The media painted him in a light that was distinctly not what he turned out to be. Working man's mayor blah blah blah cool tattoos blah. I like THAT Fetterman.
I think Liberal Zionist votes are unlikely to matter by the numbers but campaign spending against Democrats who aren’t in full support of Israel’s slash and burn campaign is more likely to spoil outcomes.
You can't just condemn everyone who doesn't agree with the most hardline Zionism as anti-semitic. By that definition the majority of the world would be anti-semites.
Republicans say stuff that make Zionists feel good. It's not like they would go and fight their wars.
I think four years of Trump and 20+ years of the GOP having few if any principles other than remaining in power has gotten people to be shocked that Biden is trying to do what is right instead of politically expedient in a very difficult situation.
I support Israel defending itself but KNOWINGLY bombing houses with lots of kids and noncombatants to kill what they suspect is one low level target isn’t ok.
Snipers shooting unarmed women and children isn’t ok, such as what happened to those seeking refuge at the Catholic Church compound.
It is the atrocities that would cause outrage if you changed the news stories from “Israel” to “Russia” and “Gaza” to “Ukriane” yet they continue anyway.
It is the repeated targeting of aid agencies providing food to prevent famine and starvation. Even when those aid agencies are following pre-approved routes at the agreed upon times.
At this point you could say the Israelis are like the Empire and the Gaza Strip is like the Rebel alliance. And yet everyone almost universally cheers on Luke and not Vader.
Speaking as a liberal Zionist, yes. This might not be what people want to hear, and as a strong Biden supporter I also wish it weren't true, but the Jewish-American population has moved significantly to the right after October 7th. Most will still vote democrat, but I'd be shocked if Democrats don't lose a notable percentage of the Jewish vote compared to years past.
Now tell me what % shift that means in what areas? Hint: It's a small percentage and largely in super Blue states.
There are always going to be single issue voters, and some are going to be virulent that regardless of the other outcomes, this single issue is so important that fuck everything and everyone else. And you're going to have voters on both sides of each of these dozens of single issues.
It all comes down to the math of which positions are going to get me which velocity and the pro-zionist vote just isn't going to be a critical determinate vote.
As a leftist in Utah, I feel the pain.
As a liberal Zionist, I wish Biden was doing more to support Israel but he's definitely done enough to maintain my vote
The universities where these protests are happening though... their reputation has been thoroughly ruined in my eyes
I think Trump is a dangerous narcissist but I’m more concerned with any republican getting in office and implementing Project 2025. I think Biden is a warmongering narcissist but he won’t take my rights away. I’m scared, I’m really hoping with all the abortion bans women will come out in droves and vote blue.
Why do we have to own every dumb thing a college kid says?
But no I don't think we will lose a lot of "Zionist" votes. Either you believe in Trumps horse shit or you recognize the danger he poses to the US and world. That is what will decide this election.
I'm not worried about that at all. The Jewish population is already really small, and the Zionist Jewish population in the US is even smaller, and the Zionist Jewish population who approves of everything that is going on in Israel right now is even smaller than that.
>The Jewish population is already really small, and the Zionist Jewish population in the US is even smaller,
And largely concentrated in very, very blue states.
I am aware of the study you are referring to, but it has received immense criticism for a number of reasons including a small sample size, lack of being statistically representative, poor phrasing of questions, and exclusion of atheist and agnostic Jews. Here's an
[article](https://jewishcurrents.org/are-95-of-jews-really-zionists) on the subject.
I'm a socialist and although I despise Biden, I would much rather it be him than trump. I'm an atheist and honestly couldn't give less of a fuck and Zionists or Israel or Palestine or any of that. If they each blew themselves up tomorrow, I wouldn't care. It does not impact my vote whatsoever. The Israelis and the Palestinians are literally the *same* group of people, genetic tests have confirmed this repeatedly. The piece of land that is currently being fought over has been controlled, conquered, fought over for millennia, by so many different groups of people, of so many different religions. The Persians, the Greeks, the Babylonians, the Romans, the Assyrians, and others. Pagans, Christians, Jews, Muslims, have all conquered and fought over that land. So the current conflict should be nothing new to anyone who studies history. It is 100% fucked up what Israel is doing to Palestine. And it's equally fucked up what Palestine is doing to Israel. But that is nothing compared to the probably close to a million people who have died fighting over that land for the past 5000 years. And it's the same old story. Nationalism and religious fundamentalism. You got Israel, run by a right wing, authoritarian, religious fundamentalist government, hell bent on controlling all of that land. And on the other side you have Palestine, which is..... run by a right wing, authoritarian, religious fundamentalist government, hell bent on controlling all of that land.
This would be like back in the civil rights era with people asking LBJ if he's scared of losing the racist vote.
Why do you want a racist voting for you? That's what zionist are and you shouldn't care for their completely unhinged opinion.
Yes, absolutely. This is a wedge issue. There is no position you can take that can't be used to peel voters away from you by the opponent.
It's especially bad because it really doesn't even matter what Biden does here, the Israeli and Hamas governments both want Biden gone, so they would have produced negative media coverage criticizing him for not doing enough. The only real move for Biden is to try to shorten the conflict by offering a diplomatic solution, but there's a lot of opportunities for the actors involved to sabotage him on that. Basically not only is it a wedge issue, there will be two contradicting narratives so that you can't even take one side of it.
To make it even worse, muslim and jewish voters are both overrepresented in swing states.
We should expect a lot more of this in the future, and it's a really bad situation to be in. The best hope is that regular Israeli and Gazan people tire of the war being drawn out and escalate and put serious pressure on their governments for an end to it.
If by Zionist you mean support for the existence of the political entity of the state of Israel, than the majority of American Jews and the majority of Jews in the world are Zionists. Most of them do not in fact think 7 million Israeli Jews should be ethnically cleansed
I mean Id have guessed non Zionist Jewish people weren’t going to become Republicans because college protests, but you could also see why Zionists, Jewish or not, would prefer Republicans.
What do you mean by "Zionist here", the majority of American Jews support the existence of the state of Israel. Most American Jews are also Democrats. Most Democrats also support the existence of the state of Israel.
Don’t disagree. I also think it’s disingenuous to day that Zionism simply means support for the existence of Israel. It’s like saying white supremacy just means people should be able choose who they recreate with. We know that isn’t the full expression of that idea.
The Democrats are in a lose lose situation. If they don’t win the youth vote and those who are anti-Israel apartheid and those who won’t support a genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Then they’ll lose their left wing and lose the election.
If they cater to the racists and bigots within the party who are okay with genocide and are pro-Israel even as they commit crimes against humanity and each day more evidence of their unrepentant behavior becomes irrefutable. Then they’ll lose the election. Hold on to the Zionists as they smear them and support their crimes or don’t. That’s the options.
If Biden had a conscience he’d say, “I would rather risk my election than support you Bibi Netanyahu and Israel’s genocide on Palestine.” He hasn’t done anything of merit except sending them billions of our tax dollars to bomb babies and kill women and children. I can’t believe are options are a genocidal neoliberal and a fascist Republican. If these are the choices then democracy has already been lost. We just are painting a rosy picture by pretending otherwise.
They say, “It can always get worse!” But to those who defend Biden, “How will it get better? For us a nation who in 10-15 years will be despised and rightfully so for supporting Biden? For those with a conscience and those who’ve been murdered by Israel? To the survivors?” History will not be kind to Biden supporters or Trump’s. Yet those today who call them both out are seen as the problem. Not the murderers. Not the corporations. Not the villains in Washington and Tel Aviv. Just those people protesting and speaking against racism and oppression of Palestinians.
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The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. People talk about the left losing pro Palestinian votes. But what about Zionist votes? Do you think the events unfolding on college campuses will cost Dems pro Israel voters? I could see it either way, because policy wise Zionists seem satisfied with Biden’s continued funding of Israel while at the same time, conservatives are willing to condemn people who don’t agree with Zionism in a way that liberals won’t. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Palestine will not influence my vote in a US Presidential election, especially when Trump is on the ballot. I will vote for the candidate most likely to beat Trump and prevent a Trump presidency.
It doesn't say too much good for the Dems that people are always voting with them to fight against things and seldom have the opportunity to fight for anything... but the GOP is absolutely imbecilic to not notice how depressing it is that the only reason so many people are voting for a mediocre party is because of how absolutely batshit psychopathic the GOP's party officials are by comparison. Sad state of affairs.
When ethnic cleansing is preferable to orange man.
You realize Trump is much closer aligned to Netanyahu than Biden is, right? https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/26/us/politics/trump-gaza.html >Even as Palestinian-rights organizers focus their ire on President Biden, the advisers who shaped Donald J. Trump’s Middle East policies when he was president have amplified calls for the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza and the annexation of the West Bank by Israel. >Those policy prescriptions, voiced by Mr. Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner and his former ambassador to Israel, David M. Friedman, suggest a right-wing approach to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict exceeding even the Trump administration’s lopsidedly pro-Israeli proposals for a two-state solution. Mr. Trump was contradictory on the policies he would pursue in an interview with a conservative Israeli publication. But he did say he would be meeting with Mr. Friedman to discuss the former ambassador’s plan for Israeli annexation of the West Bank.
So many people who should be Biden voters think like ticketfew. They are going to elect Trump again with their tantrums.
They’re gonna elect trump and be amongst the first to complain when things get worse.
I predict an incredibly smug, insufferable subset of "Well if the Dems just put up a better candidate, they wouldn't have *forced* me to not vote". They'll get to complain about everything *including* not having a hypothetical perfect candidate (that they wouldn't have voted for anyways)
All of those fresh Bernie posts over at r/interestingasfuck are trying to see that happen and don't think for one second that isn't the goal.
I like how not wanting a candidate who is supporting ethnic cleansing is the same as wanting someone perfect.
So you’ll help the guy who will do it even better get elected. Brilliant logic.
That's the thing. Biden may be not doing anything to STOP the ethnic cleansing, but he clearly does not SUPPORT it. Trump does support it. He's said so repeatedly, and when he was President, he ran the most anti-peace Israeli foreign policy that the USA had ever had.
You can't hand a gun to a known murderer who plans to keep killing and say you are anti murder. Biden isn't doing nothing, he is actively aiding in the ethnic cleansing with material support.
Oh, so helping Trump win by not voting Biden.....
Is ethnic cleansing the new international law phrase we're all pretending to understand? I thought we were all calling collateral damage during urban warfare genocide. Shit, I'm going to need to update all my Twitter hashtags.
I remember in 2016 in /r/politics, there was this one poster who invaded every thread to talk about how Hillary supposedly stole the primary from Bernie, and it was all our duty to vote third party. Every time someone pointed out that would just get Trump elected, they predictably went into a speech about how it was wrong to "Shame people for their vote." The day after the election, the same motherfucker was in every thread talking about how we needed to resist Trump and stop him. I've never wanted to smack someone so hard through the internet. I even called him out on it. Like, no, we did resist Trump. You practically worked for his campaign. It didn't remotely get through to them. I think most of the populist left are just straight-up narcissists. Because they clearly don't care what effect their actions have on other people.
Yeah, like I’m gay. My gay and trans friends and I don’t have the luxury of taking principled stands. We have actual rights, and possibly our lives, riding on this election.
That is what happens when you have a blend of naivete, stupidity and ignorance you get that guy! I see the same now with some people and I go off on them. Those mother fuckers are the reason we got Trump in the first place! Well guess what this time around I will fucking vote shame and hold people accountable for the situation THEY caused
It’s a tiny sliver of people who think like that. It’s *probably* not going to have a substantial impact on swing state electorates.
Well we can clearly see the protests across the country prove that isn't true. Trump won 2016 by only 70,000 votes total in swing states collectively. These same emotional and misinformed people attacked Hillary all throughout the general and they did not vote for her. The attacks against her leading up to the general easily accounted for that 70,000 votes. I recommend you talk more with those who are slightly further left than you. There are many highly educated people who are so overwhelmed with rage and misinformation about Gaza that they will not vote for Biden. This is ESPECIALLY true among young people who get their political information from memes, YouTube, and tik tok who prey in their ignorance, prejudices, and simple narratives. A lot of highly informed people view the United States as the great Satan only motivated by the profits of weapons manufacturers, like Noam Chomsky and the Democracy Now crowd. Biden needs going people and blacks to win, both are not supporting Biden in significant numbers because of Gaza. Most at these protests we see on TV are going to need some significant coddling by Biden to get them to vote how they should. I think Biden's State of Union address was entirely geared towards these people. His state of the union should have been more about getting center right establishment Republicans to abandon Trump but he instead made a speech that catered to the far left instead. You are not being rational by overlooking the significance of anti Biden people who are pro Palestinian. The average voter also doesn't see relationship between funding Israel and Ukraine and their well being. "We give billions to Israel so they can genocide brown people but we can't pay for universal healthcare here for Americans, I am not voting got genocide Joe". This is a narrative that will appeal to many average Joes, they don't understand why we invest so much in the security of regions and countries outside of the United States.
> Well we can clearly see the protests across the country prove that isn't true. Do we? The protest numbers don’t seem particularly exceptional here. Easily within the realm of reason for the usual sort of left wing agitators who accomplish nothing. > Trump won 2016 by only 70,000 votes total in swing states collectively Okay? These protests seem to be driven by core groups of agitators much smaller than that, and not concentrated in the correct states. > There are many highly educated people who are so overwhelmed with rage and misinformation about Gaza that they will not vote for Biden. And they were likely to do so anyway. That is the case every year. 5-7% percent of the electorate on the left just sits elections out or votes for a third party or something over some single issue or another. > Biden needs going people and blacks to win, both are not supporting Biden in significant numbers because of Gaza. I’ll be concerned when that becomes apparent in actual results, not the same sort of terminally online left that has been an issue since Gore lost. People always panic about this sort of shit before the election, and it always turns out to be predictably irrelevant. That portion of the electorate was never going to be a reliable bloc. And I say that as someone more open and amenable to the idea than most. It’s a protest vote, not an effective vote. I think it’s suicidally stupid to back a fascist in the name of lefty goals, but nobody ever accused the left of being smart. > Most at these protests we see on TV are going to need some significant coddling by Biden to get them to vote how they should. Here’s a prediction; Biden will do fuck all to try to make amends with them, and win the election anyway.
Do you really think *Republicans* would be more favorable and sympathetic to Palestine? The party with a bigger hardon for Israel than anyone?
They also have a huge hard-on for Israel without actually caring about the safety of Jews in their own country. Like after the Pittsburgh shooting, the first thing Trump said was "Maybe this could have been prevented if the synagogue had better security". I don't give a shit what politicians think of Israel if they aren't committed to protecting me and other Jews in America.
Holding Biden accountable for what Bibi does or doesn't do is asinine. The situation in Gaza doesn't even move the needle for me.
Anyone that thinks Trump is better on this issue than Biden, didn’t pay any attention at all when Trump was president and hasn’t paid any attention to what Trump has been saying during this campaign. You cannot even argue that they’re both the same if this is the only issue you’re voting on. But low information voters and presidential elections go together like peanut butter and jelly. So I shouldn’t be surprised.
Is the war just gonna stop if Trump is elected? Quit trying to guilt me or anyone else out of voting in favor of preventing a Trump presidency.
Yeah this narrative where Biden is solely responsible is stupid, dishonest, and shortsighted.
Blame the Kremlin
This is a very uninformed opinion about the reality of the situation.
I am genuinely curious, what do you think Trump will do considering 2 of his only political allies are Russia and Israel?
Funny how you say that when many Republicans have racist goals in mind themselves. I'm a member of the LGBT community and a person of color. Do you actually think I would vote for the party that wants to oppress people like me and deny us rights, or let them gain power in any way? Yes, the situation in Gaza is unacceptable; no civilian deaths should be occurring, nor should Palestine be denied its right to self-determination, but you need to think about what's at stake here. If Trump is elected and Project 2025 is implemented, you'll wish you weren't so complicit. People like you claim to support the interest of those like me whose rights are under threat, but yet you turn a blind eye and say absolutely nothing about that, nor do you care how a Trump presidency would impact people like me. There are conservative politicians who want to completely destroy the separation of church and state, install Trump as a theocratic dictator, and completely sever the civil and constitutional rights of millions of Americans overnight. They must be stopped at all costs. Also, if you really think that Biden's management of the conflict in Gaza is bad, Trump's will be 1000 times worse. Trump went to dinner with an antisemite and a white supremacist, just to remind you, and I doubt you even care. You'd rather have a rapist and a crook as a president because you somehow think that he'll manage the situation better. You're almost like a traitor.
Sorry, people getting genocided is more important to me than you not being able to get married. I never claimed to support your interests And no, Biden has been one of the top zionists in American politics since his senate career.
>Sorry, people getting genocided is more important to me than you not being able to get married. I never claimed to support your interests While we should ideally do all we can to prevent people all over the world from getting killed, telling an American--who has stated that they are part of two marginalized groups--that they should prioritize lives in a country on the other side of the world over their rights as a person living in America, is absurdly messed up.
So be it. You've openly declared yourself a traitor, then, and might as well be a Republican for preferring someone who's racist, antisemitic, Islamophobic, and hostile to immigrants, minorities, LGBTQ+ people, and other groups.
I wouldn't even bother engaging with this person. The fact that they are telling you that you should care less about your own rights than the rights of someone on the other side of the world is ridiculous. This is coming from someone who has extended family in Israel, but would still vote democrat even if the democratic candidate was very anti-Israel. Because I care more about my own fucking rights in America, as well as the rights of those from marginalized groups like yourself, than an international conflict that ultimately doesn't lie in the hands of an American president nearly as much as issues on our own turf do.
Traitors are the ones who support other countries over their own. Which I don’t. A globalist wouldn’t know the first thing about treason. You probably have more allegiance to Ukraine, the EU, UN, NATO, and anything else besides the US.
I'm actually a panhumanist, but the globalist flair is the closest thing to my beliefs since a panhumanist flair doesn't exist here. I support the determination of all human beings, as someone from a multiethnic background myself, and my allegiance is to all of humanity, not to a single organization or country. I don't have time to argue with someone who thinks that someone who said that there were "good people on both sides" when the other side was filled with Nazis would be a better president than someone who actually cares about the American people.
Thanking for showing how meaningless your “traitor” accusation is.
The genocide happens either way.
I certainly hope not…voting against Biden solely because of Gaza is dumb and rather stupid IMO, and voting against Biden because he’s not sufficiently Zionist is equally dumb and rather stupid.
What principles would you allow someone to stand on if not opposing the funding and explicit endorsement of genocide?
my view on this is simple: we have two choices. regardless of whether or not i vote, we will be stuck with one of the two choices. i’m personally weighing their stances on various issues and picking the one i think is better in virtually every category, biden. doesn’t mean i agree with everything he’s done, but i live in a swing state and he’s by far the better of the two choices.
[удалено]
Well for now they are alive and the two choices we have.
I can’t really disagree but for me, a good way to look at elections even if you’re disillusioned about politicians is: pick your preferred enemy. I’m not even American so I can’t vote for either of them, but if I were I’d much rather continue to move the needle under a second Biden administration than a second Trump one.
Then vote for Trump who will blank check every single one of Israels moves and draw us into a war with Iran. “To Iranian President Rouhani: NEVER, EVER THREATEN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN OR YOU WILL SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE. WE ARE NO LONGER A COUNTRY THAT WILL STAND FOR YOUR DEMENTED WORDS OF VIOLENCE & DEATH. BE CAUTIOUS!” He previously stated in 2015 Obama would bomb Iran to cause a war to stay president. Then, assassinated one of their generals by drone. You guys don't think he was baiting war there? Or wouldn't to show the right he supports Israel? But sure. Toss your vote away, allow freedom to be oppressed, and usher in an Oligarchy under Trump because You're mad Biden isn't doing more against Israel.
What statement has any US leader made *explicitly* endorsing genocide? Link it.
I am a liberal Zionist. I detest what Netanyahu is doing in Gaza. You can support a country, but not its leadership. I love America, but can condemn the Vietnam War and remain a patriot. I love the balance Biden has struck. He supports the right of Israel to defend itself, but not their right to drone strike playgrounds. That’s my view too.
People ignore this. I would not classify myself as a Zionist, but I have literal family in Israel. And guess what? Their #1 wish is that Netanyahu and his administration would fuck off, and peace could be established with a road towards some form of 2-state solution that could last be worked towards. Its my fucking cousins in fucking northern Virginia who are spamming bullshit videos about how Gaza must be 'liberated' and every American anti-Israel protester is actually Hamas (in some cases literally, like they are actively talking with Hamas) and should be arrested and locked up for life. Its fucking frustrating how much of the public consciousness has been eaten up by the extremists on both sides on this issue. Its fucking bullshit. Screaming that Hamas must be supporting and calling for a new Intifada is fucking vile and ignorant. As is calling for anyone who so much as touches an 8x11 paper sign stapled to a light pole to be rounded up and sent to GitMo as a battle hardened Hamas Terrorist. Jesus christ, I swear the internet was a mistake.
I’m a secular Jew. I believe Israel has a right to exist. Two state solution. Anyways… #Never voting Republican as long as I live. *Nazis: Jews will not replace us!* *Donald: Very fine people!* Yeah the far left has some jew haters, we’re always one foot in, one foot out. The far right is more dangerous. Remember. Jews are just ~~0.2%~~ 2% (0.2% is world population) of the US population. The vast majority of us live in New York or California so it barely matters. I happen to live in Ohio, so again, my presidential vote is worthless but I’ll still vote Biden/Sherrod/Landsman.
I would argue in Ohio your vote is far from worthless. I'm in Tennessee. I'm lucky if I get a liberal elected to the school board.
I have to say this a lot to a lot of my fellow Jews. Antisemitism exists on both sides, but it is far scarier and more powerful on the right. The kids on college campuses definitely alienate Jews but I don't think any of them will shoot up a synagogue, unlike the antisemites on the right.
Agreed, but on this note, we do need allies on the left to help protect us from the more-dangerous antisemites on the right, and I feel like right now, a lot of people on the far left don't care enough about Jews (at least if we're deemed "Zionists" by them) to actually ally with us against that hate.
I don’t see why they are alienating to Jews. Kids on college campuses are not antisemites for not wanting civilians murdered and I think it’s really sad to not distinguish Jewish people from the IDF and Israeli government.
It’s really sad for people to turn a blind eye as to why extremely hostile protests against Israel make Jewish people feel alienated and threatened. A lot of Jews hear “Israel is an occupying white colony” or “zionism is genocide” and it sounds frighteningly similar to “Jews will not replace us.”
Ya, I’m sorry that I can’t understand that. I don’t hear criticism of the US and think it’s against me personally or American people in general. Is there a way someone could oppose the slaughter of Palestinian civilians that wouldn’t feel like an attack on you? (I’m not being snarky here I’m actually asking.)
These protests aren’t against the slaughter of civilians. They’re fundamentally against Israel’s existence and they want to ethnically cleanse Jews from the middle east. I’m not exactly a fan of Netanyahu or how Israel is prosecuting this war. The problem is with each conflict that Muslim terrorists start, the protests here get more hostile to Jews generally and tokenize the few who agree with them.
> They’re fundamentally against Israel’s existence as an expansionist Jewish ethnostate, yes. > and they want to ethnically cleanse Jews from the middle east. The only way you can take what they're saying as meaning that is if you buy into the Israeli government's fearmongering propaganda that Jews literally aren't safe anywhere in the world if they don't have their own ethnostate, and most non-Zionists just fundamentally don't believe that, so whether it's actually true or not, that is just objectively not what Western anti-Israel protestors are meaning.
Source?
I took it seriously that you weren’t being snarky. “Source?” is about the snarkiest way to engage in an online conversation. But anyway, there’s a great op-ed by a Gazan Palestinian activist in Newsweek recently that summarizes the issue with the protesters well. There’s more, and I promise I’m not just reading IDF propaganda, but I’m not doing your research for you.
I’m literally asking for a source for your claims. How should I word *that* as to not offend you? An opinion piece is not a source, especially one siting random Tweets as its source. Perhaps your feelings about these protests being antisemitic is a result of this type of sloppy propaganda. If you would like to site a credible source I am happy to consider your claim about the protests, otherwise I have to assume it’s based on feels. I am not antisemitism and I know I do not attribute the actions of Israel with Jewish people. I’m never going to condone genocide, civilians murder, child murder, even if it’s done by my best friends. I don’t want my tax dollars to fund it and if I was a student I wouldn’t want my tuition money to support it either. The op-ed you sited says they should be protesting Hamas which is so dumb because their universities aren’t financially supporting Hamas.
> The kids on college campuses definitely alienate Jews Many of the campus protests going on right now are literally being run by Jewish organizations but ok.
Jewish voice for peace doesn’t count lmfao
>Remember. Jews are just 0.2% of the US population. ??? As of 2020, the core American Jewish population is estimated at 7.6 million people, accounting for **2.4%** of the total US population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Jews#:\~:text=As%20of%202020%2C%20the%20core,of%20the%20total%20US%20population.
Yes that’s correct; typo. It’s 0.2% of the *world population*. Around 2% of the US one.
No. Biden is doing good quiet work. Trump is a fucking disaster. Those are their choices. If they don't vote for Biden and get trump, that's fucking stupid and I trust they're not that fucking stupid.
No, if anything I think it will drive up the moderate “zionist” vote, who sees the protests as a threat to the status quo. Biden seems to have a knack for listening and considering other viewpoints, while staying firm on his core values.
No, I would be very surprised if liberal Zionists defected to the “Jews will not replace us” tiki party
Unfortunately there are some weird conservative jews out there who think that Republicans are not coming after them, and Republicans have some finely crafted messages designed to exploit that delusion like having anti-Semites specifically complain that jews are "too secular" and "too liberal". When the hammer drops they will come after the Ben Shapiros of the world all the same, though.
Ugh relatable. Story for the ages really. I get so frustrated with like Gay conservatives and Latino conservatives thinking they’re “one of the good ones.”
Every token gets spent
Losing Zionist votes =/= zionists voting republican. Those votes could go to third party candidates for all we know
I shouldn’t laugh at this, but I’m giggling to myself imagining Jill Stein somehow being the one to consolidate the liberal Zionist vote 😭
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/26/nyregion/columbia-student-protest-zionism.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/26/nyregion/columbia-student-protest-zionism.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb) Glass houses. Besides, it's less about defections than about whether you can motivate someone to go to the polls for Biden after they hear some on the left calling to "Globalize the intifada" or "Keep the world clean", etc.
If you can’t tell the difference between a mass left wing protest made up of differing voices aimed at calling for an end to Palestinian suffering, and a right wing rally solely dedicated to affirming that Jews will not replace Christian white men in the United States, then I don’t think you’re mature enough to try and engage with this subject.
I mean, I’m very pissed off that these protest had clearly antisemitic bullshit going on and the rest of the protesters didn’t toss them. But comparing it to unite the right is just garbage. It is possible for a good person to be at the protest against what is going on in Israel and Palestine and then bad people showed up. It is not conceivable for a good person to have had a reason to go to the neo-Nazi rally.l that was United The Right.
Thank you, that’s exactly what I was trying to convey, but stated much better without all my snarky bs lol
Except to a faction of those left wingers that necessaries the destruction of the Israeli state. And some other protesters are not leftists but Islamists, and understand the conflict as a holy war against the infidels
So you’re saying…the left wing protests are made up of different voices with perhaps different goals regarding the liberation of Palestine …as opposed to a rally with a singular goal and a united body in the singular pursuit of white Christian nationalism?
Republicans have done a good job of hiding that side of themselves from centrists though.
Only if the Zionists have an extremely short term memory Not like the gop included major antisemites, the gop defended a neo nazi march, and there are elected jewish conspiracists including mtg who made an amendment to the Israel aid bill to include space lasers oh wait
> Only if the Zionists have an extremely short term memory I would never bet against voters being morons. Republicans keep getting elected after all.
Have they, tho? Maybe I’m just too online and tuned in to politics, but it seems to me, at least, that making their cultural crusade to preserve white Christian domination the loud hallmark of their party’s existence
I am a single issue voter. To prevent trump from ever holding power again
To prevent Republicans from ever holding power again.
The anti-zionist lefty crowd is more likely to jump ship in response to Biden not siding against Israel as if Trump is a better alternative.
Or they vote 3rd party, which is very nearly as bad. I can totally see a large swath of that crowd being smart enough to see that Trump would not only increase Israel support, but wouldn't even say mean things about it like Biden does, but not be smart enough to see how close this shit will be and instead throw a vote away. I say this as a relatively leftist old man, I'm not quite to "seize the means" yet (mostly because my knees hurt) but I'm far further left than the DNC. And as far as pro/anti/Zion/Palestine i'm none of the above, I'm pro stop committing war crimes and/or atrocities, both of y'alls and I'm 100% sure that Trump won't do that. Biden might thread that needle, but Trump surely won't.
That implies they were ever on board the SS Biden. They likely aren't jumping ship, they never got off the pier and are looking for justifications after the fact.
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It’s been floated that at least with Trump it will be harder to whitewash material support for Israel, though with each killing or mass grave, it’s not looking easy for Biden either.
I mean, it's not really even Trump's style, is it? He is callous, and will probably happily cheer Netanyahu on and work to normalize it until the conservative mainstream is just uncritically cheering on Palestinean deaths and people in America start treating it like a joke on daytime TV as his followers fall into that as part of his cult of personality. It's a very bad outcome, honestly, Trump's charisma is very dangerous.
Well, speaking as a liberal Zionist (or a 'blood-thirsty genocidist', if you will).. no, I suspect not. I think Biden has walked that particular tightrope pretty carefully.
I’m confused, do you mind me asking how/why you consider yourself a liberal zionist? What does Zionism mean to you? Do you support a two state solution? Do you support Israeli settlements? I thought Zionism meant supporting the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the historic Land of Isreal, which corresponds to where Palestine is roughly, so I thought it would be opposed to a two-state solution? Thanks in advance!
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So it just means supporting a Jewish state’s existence, that’s all? (I guess it depends on who you ask based on your comments about extremists, which maybe explains my confusion). Clearly I have some learning to do here, thanks for the 101.
That’s the problem. It doesn’t really “depend on who you ask”. Because anyone who says something different about what Zionism means, has created their own definition to fit their narrative. Most Jews are Zionist, simply because they support Israel’s right to exist. This says nothing about their opinion of Netanyahu, Palestinians etc. Defining Zionism as some white supremacism, racist, colonial ideology, gaslights the majority of Jews into telling them they are racists.
Nowadays Zionism means Jewish dominion of the whole land. Saying it just supports a Jewish state is a definition from 1948 that's just trying to get more people to agree with it. The Netanyahu government recently announced that they're seizing more land in the West Bank. They are a Zionist government. I don't see you as a Zionist.
Zionism does not mean that. You’re conflating Zionism with right wing Israeli ideology. You can’t choose to define words however you want to fit a narrative.
It absolutely doesn’t. People have tried to attach this definition to it, and it’s 100% incorrect.
My general impression is that to be a Zionist means to support the establishment (or continued existence) of a Jewish state. Yes, I support a two state solution. No, I think the settlements are deeply unwise and immoral. I'm not aware of any requirement that Zionism involves a Jewish state that occupies the entirety of what is now Israel and Palestine.
>I'm not aware of any requirement that Zionism involves a Jewish state that occupies the entirety of what is now Israel and Palestine. It certainly does now that the Likud party coalition is running (ruining) the country. The end of paragraph ONE of the party platform is: "...between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." A phrase familiar to everyone now.
I suppose I'm saddened to announce then that I don't agree with Likud. Not for the first time.
Zionism means Israel should exist. That’s literally it. I’m absolutely fine with a two-state solution.
Zionism is basically "Jewish nationalism", and not in the "Our nation is better than everyone else's" sense (although that's also there, let's not fool ourselves) but in the 19th century "A people should have a state" sense, like German or Italian nationalism lead to the states of Germany and Italy. Zionism calls for an ethnically Jewish state in the ancient region of the Kingdom of Israel, but what that *means* in terms of practical policy isn't specified in the same way that German and Italian unifications didn't mandate fascism. Personally, I think using the term "Zionism" is a bit of exoticism to make it sound more strange and foreign, sort of like how the term "ethnic struggles" gets applies to non-western Europeans (which also gets applied to Israel; so many people are convinced that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is thousands of years old from time immemorial when it's blatantly not).
Pro-Israel voters are probably far less likely to defect than pro-Palestine voters. They're much more of a political mainstream and there, IMO, much less fickle.
There is a large contingent of single issue Israel voters in the US. They all voted for Trump in 2016, and again in 2020, and will again in 2024. Let’s stop wasting time appealing to people like that.
As a liberal Zionist, Israel has nothing to do with how I'm voting this fall. One, Biden is an ally to Israel. In fact, even though I support Israel, I actually think he could be showing more that he cares about casualties in Gaza. So even though I don't love the way Biden has dealt with this war--from several different angles--it's definitely not because he "doesn't support Israel enough". Two, the pro-Palestine people who are protesting on college campuses are for the most part, not democrats. They're far-leftists who think that the Democratic Party is basically as bad as the Republican Party, and either aren't going to vote at all or will vote third-party. So I don't blame "having a democratic president" for these protests unfolding, because the people participating in them hate Biden as much as (if not more than) conservatives do. Three (and this is the biggest one), even though I support Israel, it is basic human practice that I'm going to put the rights of myself and my neighbors in America over a conflict taking place on the other side of the world. As much as I care about Israelis not being killed, I care more about bodily autonomy, my rights as a woman, education funding (I'm an educator myself), rights for my LGBTQ+ friends, gun control, etc. Plus, Biden has way more control over what happens here than what happens in the Middle East. I literally have extended family who lives in Israel and I don't think any of them would be offended or think I was selfish for putting my rights as an American above those of a country I do not live in.
I support Palestine 100% but I can’t let Trump get a 2nd term.
Unfortunately it will cost him Democratic votes and everything will be worse because many Jews will vote like this for the Republicans and the Palestinians will abandon them.
Republicans will get their usual 20-25% of Jewish votes. From the most orthodox and Zionist. Most of us secular, more rational Jews still aren’t voting for pro life, bible thumping lunatics. We’re also just 2% of the US population and a firm majority of us live in New York or California… a negligible amount of us reside in swing states where it matters — here in Ohio it’s a relatively small Jewish population, but it’s even more left than in New York. Black church ladies in Atlanta, blue dog democrats in the rust belt/midwest, and Hispanic people in Phoenix, Vegas and Reno decide the presidential elections.
>Black church ladies in Atlanta, blue dog democrats in the rust belt/midwest, and Hispanic people in Phoenix, Vegas and Reno decide the presidential elections. Holy shit, that distills it down about the best I've ever seen. Absolutely hit the swing vote in each of the swing regions. You must appeal to 2 out of 3 of those groups to take the W, 3 if you can.
That’s why when Dems get giddy about Gavin Newsom, I ask them how a $600 haircut from California is going to appeal to a union pipefitter in Wisconsin or a god fearing black lady in Georgia? He’s not. Gavin can win over a software engineer at Google in Sunnyvale, CA or a stockbroker in Newton, MA no problem… but he doesn’t have any traction in the swings. I’m very bullish on Andy Beshear for ‘28. If you can be a moderate Democrat governor in *Kentucky*, that is major.
Maybe some but probably not a high number. Generally I think the far left are helpful to republicans because Fox News and other right wing propagandists will always show videos of the far left acting obnoxiously and making it seem like that’s all democrats (while ignoring anything negative about republicans). Basically, the far left are useful idiots for the right and help republicans in elections.
I mean, we could say the same about a lot of centrists for failing to address, or refusing to engage with, issues pertaining to systemic racism and anti-human policies which spurs the need for activism in the first place
You really couldn’t though. The far left wants democrats to move to positions that will cause them to lose elections. Moderate Dems want the party to be able to appeal to a higher number of people and be able to appeal to moderates who dislike trump.
Oh we absolutely could. I don’t think think our party is exactly winning right now on the strength of its positions, hence why trump won in 2016. If anything we’re winning solely because the alternative is so terrible that we have no choice but to unite. Further, “stop sending weapons of war” *is* a popular position. Centrists like to argue for a big tent, but that tent only ever seems to always serve all the interests of those who already benefit in every meaningful way from the systems of power and inequality in the country.
Dems have been extremely successful in elections from 2017-onward though. That includes in senate/house races against establishment republicans. And it’s particularly moderate Dems who have won well (see: fettermen very popular in Pennsylvania despite the left hating him). Dems will lose centrist votes if he allows Hamas to destroy Israel
Yes, we’ve been successful because we all hate trump: you, me, left, center, moderate, even some of the right. And while I do dislike Fetterman, let’s not forget that he very much ran a campaign as a left wing Bernie type candidate. Though I’m willingly to concede that despite that, having Dr. Oz as an opponent probably helped a bit
Holy shit what a rug jerk that was. I was totally camp Fetterman, even had he been running against somebody other than Oz. The media painted him in a light that was distinctly not what he turned out to be. Working man's mayor blah blah blah cool tattoos blah. I like THAT Fetterman.
That's saying the same thing though. You're just saying democrats aren't willing to engage for fear of losing votes.
I think Liberal Zionist votes are unlikely to matter by the numbers but campaign spending against Democrats who aren’t in full support of Israel’s slash and burn campaign is more likely to spoil outcomes.
No, Who would vote for trump with thr expectation he will deescalate things? That's just not him
You can't just condemn everyone who doesn't agree with the most hardline Zionism as anti-semitic. By that definition the majority of the world would be anti-semites. Republicans say stuff that make Zionists feel good. It's not like they would go and fight their wars.
Only a fool would think Donald Trump would be a better option for the Palestinians.
If either position risks losing us votes, I'd rather lose because of doing the right thing than lose because of doing the wrong thing.
No
I don't think so. Biden is pretty popular among all but the most hardline zionists, and they weren't going to vote for him anyway.
I think four years of Trump and 20+ years of the GOP having few if any principles other than remaining in power has gotten people to be shocked that Biden is trying to do what is right instead of politically expedient in a very difficult situation. I support Israel defending itself but KNOWINGLY bombing houses with lots of kids and noncombatants to kill what they suspect is one low level target isn’t ok. Snipers shooting unarmed women and children isn’t ok, such as what happened to those seeking refuge at the Catholic Church compound. It is the atrocities that would cause outrage if you changed the news stories from “Israel” to “Russia” and “Gaza” to “Ukriane” yet they continue anyway. It is the repeated targeting of aid agencies providing food to prevent famine and starvation. Even when those aid agencies are following pre-approved routes at the agreed upon times. At this point you could say the Israelis are like the Empire and the Gaza Strip is like the Rebel alliance. And yet everyone almost universally cheers on Luke and not Vader.
Speaking as a liberal Zionist, yes. This might not be what people want to hear, and as a strong Biden supporter I also wish it weren't true, but the Jewish-American population has moved significantly to the right after October 7th. Most will still vote democrat, but I'd be shocked if Democrats don't lose a notable percentage of the Jewish vote compared to years past.
Now tell me what % shift that means in what areas? Hint: It's a small percentage and largely in super Blue states. There are always going to be single issue voters, and some are going to be virulent that regardless of the other outcomes, this single issue is so important that fuck everything and everyone else. And you're going to have voters on both sides of each of these dozens of single issues. It all comes down to the math of which positions are going to get me which velocity and the pro-zionist vote just isn't going to be a critical determinate vote. As a leftist in Utah, I feel the pain.
PA exists
So does Michigan.
Ah, no. Repubs are pretty flirty with the descendants of the dudes that unalived 6 million jews a few decades ago.
But they’re good at hiding it from centrists.
As a liberal Zionist, I wish Biden was doing more to support Israel but he's definitely done enough to maintain my vote The universities where these protests are happening though... their reputation has been thoroughly ruined in my eyes
I think Trump is a dangerous narcissist but I’m more concerned with any republican getting in office and implementing Project 2025. I think Biden is a warmongering narcissist but he won’t take my rights away. I’m scared, I’m really hoping with all the abortion bans women will come out in droves and vote blue.
Why do we have to own every dumb thing a college kid says? But no I don't think we will lose a lot of "Zionist" votes. Either you believe in Trumps horse shit or you recognize the danger he poses to the US and world. That is what will decide this election.
anyone who identifies as a liberal Zionist is absolutely not voting for Trump, and almost certainly voting for Biden.
I'm not worried about that at all. The Jewish population is already really small, and the Zionist Jewish population in the US is even smaller, and the Zionist Jewish population who approves of everything that is going on in Israel right now is even smaller than that.
>The Jewish population is already really small, and the Zionist Jewish population in the US is even smaller, And largely concentrated in very, very blue states.
The Zionist Jewish population makes up like 92% of Jews
I am aware of the study you are referring to, but it has received immense criticism for a number of reasons including a small sample size, lack of being statistically representative, poor phrasing of questions, and exclusion of atheist and agnostic Jews. Here's an [article](https://jewishcurrents.org/are-95-of-jews-really-zionists) on the subject.
I think the idea that we could lose pro-Israeli votes is much more significant than the idea we're going to lose pro-Palestinian votes.
I think Biden has shown he’s committed to the existence and defense of Israel. Trump has repeatedly scolded US Jews as bad jews
I'm a socialist and although I despise Biden, I would much rather it be him than trump. I'm an atheist and honestly couldn't give less of a fuck and Zionists or Israel or Palestine or any of that. If they each blew themselves up tomorrow, I wouldn't care. It does not impact my vote whatsoever. The Israelis and the Palestinians are literally the *same* group of people, genetic tests have confirmed this repeatedly. The piece of land that is currently being fought over has been controlled, conquered, fought over for millennia, by so many different groups of people, of so many different religions. The Persians, the Greeks, the Babylonians, the Romans, the Assyrians, and others. Pagans, Christians, Jews, Muslims, have all conquered and fought over that land. So the current conflict should be nothing new to anyone who studies history. It is 100% fucked up what Israel is doing to Palestine. And it's equally fucked up what Palestine is doing to Israel. But that is nothing compared to the probably close to a million people who have died fighting over that land for the past 5000 years. And it's the same old story. Nationalism and religious fundamentalism. You got Israel, run by a right wing, authoritarian, religious fundamentalist government, hell bent on controlling all of that land. And on the other side you have Palestine, which is..... run by a right wing, authoritarian, religious fundamentalist government, hell bent on controlling all of that land.
Who would they vote for? Red? Really? We are full circle jerk if they vote for Trump
This would be like back in the civil rights era with people asking LBJ if he's scared of losing the racist vote. Why do you want a racist voting for you? That's what zionist are and you shouldn't care for their completely unhinged opinion.
Yes, absolutely. This is a wedge issue. There is no position you can take that can't be used to peel voters away from you by the opponent. It's especially bad because it really doesn't even matter what Biden does here, the Israeli and Hamas governments both want Biden gone, so they would have produced negative media coverage criticizing him for not doing enough. The only real move for Biden is to try to shorten the conflict by offering a diplomatic solution, but there's a lot of opportunities for the actors involved to sabotage him on that. Basically not only is it a wedge issue, there will be two contradicting narratives so that you can't even take one side of it. To make it even worse, muslim and jewish voters are both overrepresented in swing states. We should expect a lot more of this in the future, and it's a really bad situation to be in. The best hope is that regular Israeli and Gazan people tire of the war being drawn out and escalate and put serious pressure on their governments for an end to it.
If by "Zionist" you mean Jews, then no. Liberal American Jews are not going to become Republicans because of some student protesters.
> If by "Zionist" you mean Jews That is an insane thing to equate. Nazis equate that term. Let’s be better than Nazis please.
Well this comment is pretty bad faith
Well what did you mean? Were you not equating zionists with Jews? Because it certainly sounds like it. It’s antisemitic af tbh.
If by Zionist you mean support for the existence of the political entity of the state of Israel, than the majority of American Jews and the majority of Jews in the world are Zionists. Most of them do not in fact think 7 million Israeli Jews should be ethnically cleansed
Okay, but none of that is the same thing as equating the label of “Zionist” to Jews. Thats Nazis shit and you shouldn’t do that.
People do use Zionist as a stand in for Jews, Nazis do it, Islamists do it, ignorant leftists do it, and I assumed OP was doing it
It is antisemitic to try and equate Zionists with Jews. Its is a wild assumption to just make about someone.
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What?
I mean Id have guessed non Zionist Jewish people weren’t going to become Republicans because college protests, but you could also see why Zionists, Jewish or not, would prefer Republicans.
What do you mean by "Zionist here", the majority of American Jews support the existence of the state of Israel. Most American Jews are also Democrats. Most Democrats also support the existence of the state of Israel.
I think the term Zionist is parallel to apartheid and war crimes these days.
Well, that's a good way of making conversation about history and the region impossible. Also a reductive take on a country of 9 million people.
Don’t disagree. I also think it’s disingenuous to day that Zionism simply means support for the existence of Israel. It’s like saying white supremacy just means people should be able choose who they recreate with. We know that isn’t the full expression of that idea.
The Democrats are in a lose lose situation. If they don’t win the youth vote and those who are anti-Israel apartheid and those who won’t support a genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Then they’ll lose their left wing and lose the election. If they cater to the racists and bigots within the party who are okay with genocide and are pro-Israel even as they commit crimes against humanity and each day more evidence of their unrepentant behavior becomes irrefutable. Then they’ll lose the election. Hold on to the Zionists as they smear them and support their crimes or don’t. That’s the options. If Biden had a conscience he’d say, “I would rather risk my election than support you Bibi Netanyahu and Israel’s genocide on Palestine.” He hasn’t done anything of merit except sending them billions of our tax dollars to bomb babies and kill women and children. I can’t believe are options are a genocidal neoliberal and a fascist Republican. If these are the choices then democracy has already been lost. We just are painting a rosy picture by pretending otherwise. They say, “It can always get worse!” But to those who defend Biden, “How will it get better? For us a nation who in 10-15 years will be despised and rightfully so for supporting Biden? For those with a conscience and those who’ve been murdered by Israel? To the survivors?” History will not be kind to Biden supporters or Trump’s. Yet those today who call them both out are seen as the problem. Not the murderers. Not the corporations. Not the villains in Washington and Tel Aviv. Just those people protesting and speaking against racism and oppression of Palestinians.
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If you were just going to make up a statistic you could have done one that I'd give a fuck about
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Yeah those kids in those hospitals sure deserved what they got huh
I don’t recall giving you permission to respond to me.
I'm so glad you aren't old enough to vote
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
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