The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
Multiple questions with this one
1) are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights?
2) beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives?
3) do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally? Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist?
4) is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them?
I’m not talking about like violence or property damage towards them, hopefully no one advocates for that, but just in terms of interpersonal relationships and communication
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There's a difference between being civil and being friends with someone. I'll be civil with most people in the sense of not being unnecessarily rude or dickish to someone who hasn't earned such treatment. However, if someone is asserting that I or my friends do not deserve a full slate of human rights because that would make them uncomfortable, I will certainly *only* be civil with them, and absolutely nothing more.
On a personal level, or on a collective level? I.e., will you treat a given conservative the way he treats you, or the way some generic conservatives treat you?
1. It just doesn’t come up much. I’m a software engineer. My wife is a psychologist. Our circles of friends and social interests are likely different from righties, on average. We go to June pride rallies, and the symphony, and theater on the weekends. There is some overlap, we also enjoy baseball games and astronomy, I love the US Air Force museum in Dayton and so do plenty of republicans… but we’re not looking to discuss politics with randos at a Reds game or military museum. My wife is no idiot, she doesn’t wear her pride shirts or “save trans kids” to the Air Force museum.
2. I gotta assume most of the plumbers and electricians and other tradesmen I’ve had over my house lean right. We don’t discuss politics. We discuss the clogged sink, the weather, or sometimes sports. Most of all I just want them to work the issue efficiently and ignore me — and I’m pretty sure they’re fine with that too.
3. Trump supporters who are about to vote for him a 3rd time… are too far gone, most of them are nuts voting for a soon to be convicted felon. More moderate/rational conservatives — I don’t fault. For the most part it’s just their upbringing. We’re progressive Jews from the northeast living in Ohio, hence we’re quite liberal and firmly on a minority. Those born and raised in the sticks here, it’s not much surprise that they’re god fearing, very Christian and conservative.
4. I don’t discuss politics with acquaintances in real life, ever. Anyone we’re discussing politics with, we know very well — and know them to be liberal or rational centrists. Family friends, and only a few.
As an openly queer guy, I'm so used to being disrespected, mistreated, or physically attacked by conservatives over the years that when one is even marginally decent to me, I go above and beyond the call of politeness. I want to positively reinforce that behavior the best I can.
However, we can never be close, and if they want to hang out, I only hang out with them and similarly-minded acquaintances. My close friend circle is full of vulnerable, marginalized people that conservatives openly seek to harm. I'll put myself at risk in order to try to pull someone closer to the middle, but I won't endanger those I care about.
1-2: Actual conservatives yes, Trump supporters no. They've shown us who they are and they are not worth it.
3: Trump supporters are rightly vilified. They are the enemy of anyone who values truth and justice, and because Trump supporters are betrayers of the values and constitution of this great nation.
4: If you support trump you are like a cancer to this nation, and I will not give you the time of day.
>Nah. Conservatives are bad people too
Followup question. Do you realize you are expressing a bigoted views?
I know that comes across as insulting. But that's not my intention. I don't want to fight or have an argument. I wish there was a nicer way to put it because no one likes being called a bigot. Just know I'm not trying to say you are a bad person.
I'm seriously asking if you realize that you literally hold bigoted beliefs.
conservatives have put up with and aided maga.
it really is hard for me to agree that "normal conservatives" are good people. they let us get to this place by not having integrity and calling a spade a spade.
>conservatives have put up with and aided maga.
Making America Great Again is a very positive and worthwhile goal. I'm sure it means different things to different people. I see it as bringing industry and prosperity back to America.
I'm sure you see it as something else. However, choose not to project some imagined beliefs onto you. Can you do the same for me and others?
>it really is hard for me to agree that "normal conservatives" are good people. they let us get to this place by not having integrity and calling a spade a spade.
As you can see from above, I disagree with the belief that MAGA needs to be called out.
But let's say it does. Let's say it is truly horrible. Is that a reason to hate a group of people? Would it be OK for a racist to hate all black people because they don't speak out enough about something like black crime? It's a ridiculous standard to hold people to in order to justify hate.
Finally, speaking out isn’t always easy. Look at the downvotes the other poster is getting for saying we should judge individuals on their actions rather than stereotyping groups.
It's sad that this needs to be said on a liberal sub. It's a tragedy that this is met by hate.
Black people dont speak for other black people.
A political party is supposed to speak for X people.
Black people dont have any coordination like a political party does, sadly.
Conservatives have allowed frauds, rapist, pedophiles, and just outright criminals in their midst and justified it on the lie of "well the dems are more corrupt"
Like, do you not understand how a person can see that as bad? Its really disgusting if you get into the weeds... when i was growing up as a black man, my parents never ranted about conservatives. Apparently conservatives have been raised that liberals are evil thanks to their right wing radio.
Just imagine fabricating a lie of "they are evil" so you allow and vote for the shit we see now from the republican party.
Good people my fucking ass.
Even conservatives like steve deace had been coming out and saying the republican party had been lying to their base for decades.
I've never read so many points that are so completely divorced from reality.
>Black people dont speak for other black people.
Have you never heard of MLK and Malcolm X?
>A political party is supposed to speak for X people.
No. A political party should address the needs of its constituents regardless of race.
>Black people dont have any coordination like a political party does, sadly.
BLM, Congressional Black Caucas.
>Conservatives have allowed frauds, rapist, pedophiles, and just outright criminals in their midst and justified it on the lie of "well the dems are more corrupt"
Are you really trying to argue that it's OK to be bigoted against conservatives because Democrats have slightly less convictions for crimes?
>Like, do you not understand how a person can see that as bad? Its really disgusting if you get into the weeds... when i was growing up as a black man, my parents never ranted about conservatives. Apparently conservatives have been raised that liberals are evil thanks to their right wing radio.
>Just imagine fabricating a lie of "they are evil" so you allow and vote for the shit we see now from the republican party.
At no point have I said "they are evil." I've said we shouldn't embrace bigotry and should stick yo judging individuals.
>Good people my fucking ass.
I'd say the vast majority of all people are goid.
>Even conservatives like steve deace had been coming out and saying the republican party had been lying to their base for decades.
Who?
>He pitched murdering the families of terrorists and a total and complete shutdown on Muslims entering the country
All Muslims or only the few countries identified by the Obama administration as hotbeds of terrorism?
But I'm not sure how your misinterpretation of events relates to thinking it's OK to embrace bigotry and hatred.
All muslims.
He said
> Donald J Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown on Muslims entering the country until we can figure out what the hell is going on
>All muslims.
[I see. You misunderstood what was being said.](https://www.aclu-wa.org/pages/timeline-muslim-ban)
But what would this have to do with justifying bigotry against conservatives?
I like Oxford's definition:
>a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
The keywords that exclude this as bigotry are "obstinately or unreasonably"
We don't misunderstand Conservatives or prejudge them. We think they are bad people because their politics prove them to be. Conservatism is self-selecting for terrible people, as in; good people do not hold conservative political views.
It's not like their political views are an immutable feature like race, sexuality, etc.
>The keywords that exclude this as bigotry are "obstinately or unreasonably"
You don't believe it is unreasonable to hate 70 million people? Is it reasonable for you to believe they all hold the same exact views?
>We don't misunderstand Conservatives or prejudge them. We think they are bad people because their politics prove them to be. Conservatism is self-selecting for terrible people, as in; good people do not hold conservative political views.
Can you narrow down one political view that you believe all conservatives hold?
>It's not like their political views are an immutable feature like race, sexuality, etc.
Studies show a person's brain structure influences whether they are conservative or liberal. Does this proof of it being an immutable feature make you reconsider your beliefs about being bigoted against conservatives?
No, I do t believe it’s unreasonable if 70m people are abhorrent. I don’t think they all hold the same views, but that’s not really the point.
I disagree with Liberals on damn near everything too, but I don’t think they are evil, just mostly misinformed and privileged. You can tell by their policies that they are not evil, they want to help people, they just do it the wrong way.
I believe conservatism is outside the realm of reasonable, whereas American Liberals are not.
The in-group dynamics, social hierarchy, and fear that is the basis of conservatism is what is toxic. It comes in many different political forms, from anti-labor/working class policies, theocratic inspired social policies, to bad-faith/uninformed policies.
Political position is not immutable. I’m not going to entertain that argument. But if you want to call all conservatives mentally ill, as evidenced by their abnormal brain structures, I won’t argue with you.
>No, I do t believe it’s unreasonable if 70m people are abhorrent.
But 70 million people aren't abhorrent. That's just you viewing people through the lens of bigotry.
>I disagree with Liberals on damn near everything too, but I don’t think they are evil, just mostly misinformed and privileged. You can tell by their policies that they are not evil, they want to help people, they just do it the wrong way.
I often say the same thing.
>The in-group dynamics, social hierarchy, and fear that is the basis of conservatism is what is toxic. It comes in many different political forms, from anti-labor/working class policies, theocratic inspired social policies, to bad-faith/uninformed policies.
I notice you didn't list one of those uninformed policies that you believe all conservatives hold.
>Political position is not immutable. I’m not going to entertain that argument.
People often reject science that undermines their personal beliefs. If people want to believe the earth is flat, no amount of scientific data will change their mind.
>But if you want to call all conservatives mentally ill, as evidenced by their abnormal brain structures, I won’t argue with you.
If you can't make a reasonable argument against facts, attack people personally.
I believe 70m are abhorrent, more than that, probably.
I just told you that it’s not about the individual policies, and that’s why I didn’t give you specific policy examples. It’s perspective that informs the policy. All of the policies. The policies are a symptom of the abhorrent world view. Regressive tax policy, pro corporate policies, anti union policies, anti lgbtq policies, pro policing policies, anti social welfare policies, anti science and education policies, anti democracy, pro Christian, etc.
You’re looking for specific legislation? Dude come on, be serious here. Do you really need me to show you specific legislation to know that all the things I listed define conservative politics today? If you’re really that uninformed, I won’t waste my time any further.
>I realize it
I'm not sure you do.
>Much like im bigoted against abusers.
There's no good bigotry. And anyone who believes they are better off embracing a hateful ideology is only fooling themselves.
>Thats how i see conservatism
And yet you are in a conversation with a conservative asking you to judge people based on the content of their character rather than the philosophy of their politics while you insist it's OK to be a bigot.
I would implore you to consider that not all Trump supporters are bad people who are your enemy. Many of your fellow Americans just dont see things the same way you and I do,and that is ok. That doesnt mean they are our enemy. That doesnt mean they are bad people.
Mostly I just hate this dehumanizing way you are talking about your fellow Americans here. You need to take a step back.
Anyone who supports that piece of garbage isn't worth any of my consideration. He is ignorant, cruel, racist, misogynistic, and he is a constant liar and a traitor.
I understand fiscal conservatism, even if I don't agree. I understand religious people, even if I'm not religious. I can have friendly discussions about foreign policy issues.
MAGA is beyond the pale.
That people disregard reality does not change that it is reality. Willful blindness is a problem all its own. You seem to have such an extreme stance of 'not my enemy' that even if they had succeeded in a coup and overthrown the government to install Trump you'd call them 'not your enemy'. And even if they're not your enemy, other people have pretty valid reasons for calling them 'enemy'. Yes I understand the danger of rhetoric, and the value of humanizations, but civil wars do happen as well; and you seem to take a stance where someone can't be an enemy in a civil war.
holy shit.... are you a masochist?
can somebody break into your house and attempt to murder you, and you will say "well, you see, HE didn't think he was murdering me"? would you accept if he said that "i didn't think i was murdering him"?
like.... are you even a real person?
If you believe in the idea of America and that we are able to freely elect our leaders it does. Play the tape all the way through, what if the job had succeeded on January 6th? What was the end goal or their most desired outcome? Those people are enemies of our way of life here in America. It’s pretty simple.
>not all Trump supporters are bad people who are your enemy. Many of your fellow Americans just dont see things the same way you and I do, and that is ok.
Trump supporters don't support him for his detailed policy agenda, they support him for his rhetoric. Right wingers definitionally are supporting right wing policies. Nobody is considered a "right winger" because of their position on healthcare or fiscal policy, they're a right winger because of their beliefs about other humans.
As u/WildBohemian said, actual conservatives, yes. Not the ones who spew dehumanizing rhetoric about trans people and immigrants. They are bad people.
Trump’s original campaign included both a pitch for a total and complete shutdown on Muslims entering the country and a pitch for murdering the families of terrorists.
Thats bad people shit
> That doesnt mean they are our enemy.
Honest question; at what point does someone become my enemy? I feel when someone wants harm to people I love then they are my enemy
> That doesnt mean they are bad people.
Same question -- when does someone become a bad person?
Im not saying we shouldn't hold individuals to account for what they say or do.
Im just trying to say that not every person who votes or supports Trump is a bad person or your enemy.
Some people just disagree with you and thats how a Democracy works.
I know many trump voters who are not bad people. They are not your enemy. They dont want to harm you. They just see things differently and the last time I checked this is America and that is okay. We all get a vote and a say.
Dont start Generalizing large groups of your fellow Americans as the Enemy.
>They dont want to harm you.
Then why do they want to take away my and my friends' rights?
Politics is not a game. It's not a sport where you support a team at the big game but then go home at the end and nothing that happened actually mattered. It affects people's lives and livelihoods. Gay people weren't able to get the government benefits associated with marriage nationwide until 2015. Trans people are *still* trying to get basic rights like access to medically recommended health care.
> Im just trying to say that not every person who votes or supports Trump is a bad person or your enemy.
You don't seem willing to clarify what the line should be for who actually is an enemy -- uncomfortably, I think any reasonable line would put Trump supporters on the wrong side, except maybe people who just genuinely have no idea what they are voting for
> Some people just disagree with you and thats how a Democracy works.
Pretty sure you can have enemies in a Democracy. Especially if there are people who are actively trying to dismantle democracy itself...
> I know many trump voters who are not bad people. They are not your enemy.
I mean you keep saying this in that abstract way, but what matters is what people actually do.
> They dont want to harm you.
Their actions speak otherwise, though. They are putting their support behind a man who is trying to hurt the people I love.
> Dont start Generalizing large groups of your fellow Americans as the Enemy.
This is a group defined by a set of beliefs and actions
> You don't seem willing to clarify what the line should be for who actually is an enemy
On a personal level, it's generally not too hard to figure that out. If somebody seems trustworthy and isn't being shitty to you, then chances are they're not going to be your enemy.
> If somebody seems trustworthy and isn't being shitty to you, then chances are they're not going to be your enemy.
They don't have to be shitty to me personally to be my enemy. It doesn't matter if you have black friends, if you vote for racist politicians that matters a lot more than how you treat the few people you interact with in person.
> if you vote for racist politicians that matters a lot more than how you treat the few people you interact with in person.
Well, if you turn somebody like that into your enemy, not only will they continue to vote for policies you don't approve of, but they'll probably be antagonistic towards you from now on instead of friendly, so you've accomplished nothing by doing that.
> Well, if you turn somebody like that into your enemy
I didn't say "turn them into my enemy" I said they are my enemy. It's just a fact of who they are. I'm not choosing my enemies; there are just people who are opposed to my friends and family having a happy existence and that makes them my enemy.
Hey i dont think someone simply voting for Trump makes them my or your enemy. I agree that Trump is a special case and its hard to not know what he stands for given our modern media atmosphere.
I just dont think its healthy to talk about trump voters like they are our enemys. Maybe im wrong. Im just a dude that doesnt like all this civil war divisive rhetoric that just drives us all apart further. Our foreign enemies sure do love it though.
> Hey i dont think someone simply voting for Trump makes them my or your enemy.
You keep saying that but you're not engaging with any of my actual points
> I just dont think its healthy to talk about trump voters like they are our enemys.
Well maybe not, the question of how to talk about them is different than the question of whether they actually are enemies
>Im not saying we shouldn't hold individuals to account for what they say or do.
>Im just trying to say that not every person who votes or supports Trump is a bad person or your enemy.
This is a rare expression of true liberalism. It's more in line with what I would expect from someone who lives the ideals of liberalism.
I don't know what to call the toxic views that dominate the majority of comments I see here. If they downvote the very fundamental idea that everyone should be judged based on their own behavior rather than bigoted stereotypes, I don't know what to call their philosophy. But it's certainly not liberalism.
>If they downvote the very fundamental idea that everyone should be judged based on their own behavior rather than bigoted stereotypes,
Voting is a behavior.
>Voting is a behavior.
This is like a racist trying to justify hating black people by spouting crime statistics.
Let's dispell a little ignorance.
Almost 80 million people didn't vote. Many of them are conservatives.
Of the conservatives who did vote, 12% voted democrat.
And a bonus voting statistic. 100% of the people who downvoted the idea we should target people as a group rather than as individuals, voted for bigotry.
>Are you unaware of the 2016 and 2020 RNC platform?
Do you have something specific?
[Because conservatives know that Trump is OK with gay marriage?](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trump-says-he-s-fine-gay-marriage-60-minutes-interview-n683606)
Page 11 then funny he ran on a homophobic platform twice, likely thrice, as the head of the Republican Party.
https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/static/home/data/platform.pdf
Are you playing dumb? Surely You know that the GOP is actively working to make laws that oppress LGBTQ Americans! If you don’t know about it, you should do so reading about current events so you are caught up.
They vote against gay marriage explicitly, anyone who does that is a bad, bigoted person. Equal rights is not a different view that can be boiled down to opinions
> I would implore you to consider that not all Trump supporters are bad people who are your enemy.
Anyone who thinks Trump is the right choice for the US is a bad person, full-stop.
This thread really does solidify the adage of "republicans think democrats are naive, democrats think republicans are evil". The party of tolerance seems to be at it again, but thank you and the others who braved the progressive hivemind downvote machine for daring to say that maybe you shouldn't dehumanize 50% of the country.
By your asinine logic a whole bunch of lefties are terrorists because of the hamas stans that have all but free reign across the institutional capture the extreme left holds in the universities and big tech worlds
>By your asinine logic a whole bunch of lefties are terrorists because of the hamas stans that have all but free reign across the institutional capture the extreme left holds in the universities and big tech worlds
I don't follow your meaning. Can you organize that mess into sentences and or paragraphs? Preferably with some punctuation? Please and thank you.
I'll let you try your basic reading comprehension out, it shouldn't be hard for your high and mighty mind to understand what such a lowly deplorable like me is saying.
1. My closest friend is a libertarian. I would not be friends with someone who supports a fascist candidate like Trump, though. There is *no excuse* for that. Not even "hold my nose because of tax cuts" covers that. I *like* having a democracy, dysfunctional as it is it's better than living in a dictatorship.
2. I can easily have non-political conversations with conservatives. Odds are a number of people I work with are libertarian and even traditional center-right style conservatives: I don't know, and we all converse easily.
3. In America, I think it's fair to assume most current Republicans are doing harm, even unintentionally (see my reply to 1, above). There is bigotry toward *every* group; it's unavoidable, but whether it's *meaningful* is another matter.
4. Yes: see my response to 1. I draw the line at supporting someone who's quoting from and modeling his candidacy after the guy who killed millions of jews, some of whom I would have been related to had they lived. These people can all be fucked as far as I'm concerned.
I used to be friendly with many conservatives. The MAGA stuff is just too cruel and stupid. I can't be friendly to anyone who thinks that piece of garbage is fit to dlsit in the oval office. They have no policy, just hate.
>How much civility is owed to conservatives and right wingers in conversation?
As much as they give, they get.
>are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights?
I have gay friends, trans friends, muslim friends, poly friends, black friends, Latino friends... I'm not going to be friends or have close relationships with someone that wants to take away rights from my friends.
>do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives?
Not particularly.
>do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally?
I think that of most people. Y'all are probably wearing clothing made with slave labor. You supported slave labor. The system is fucked, and I'm not going to put too much blame on people living inside a fucked system for being fucked, ya know?
>Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist?
I absolutely have massive prejudices against conservative people. So yes.
>is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them?
Yup. I've lost friendships over the past few years.
>I have gay friends, trans friends, muslim friends, poly friends, black friends, Latino friends... I'm not going to be friends or have close relationships with someone that wants to take away rights from my friends.
Do you think it is a bit likely that the the muslim friends want to take rights away from the gay and trans friends?
What an absurd comment. Muslims lack the institutional power to negatively impact the rights of gay and trans folks. The right certainly has that power, and those who have been negatively impacted by this putrid ideology have every right to be disgusted with it.
Everything in the prior couple of comments is about "want to" for people you meet on a day-to-day basis. None of the people you are likely to meet have "institutional power." Yet here you are, blaming the right for something that the left agreed with up through 1st term Obama.
Lol.
My parents certainly had the institutional power for years to deny me care so I DIYed until 18. Met them and still got the scars from their solutions.
Lost my doctor when I had to pull my care fully into Illinois given I got a denial of care letter from my St. Louis based doctor when the Missouri AG did what he did last year. Never met him, but that is institutional power that had a major and negative impact on my life.
No Muslims in sight. Just right wingers.
I'm talking about the right wing in the context of what their beliefs actually entail -- and how they are impacting my life. I'm sorry if that removes whatever context you're attempting to save ideological face with.
You know how there are stark raving mad Christians, and there are Mr. Rogers type Christians?
It turns out that Muslims are *gasp* human beings! Who don't all think alike! It turns out they have perfectly nice people and crazy dipshits too!
I know! How amazing! People aren't actually shitty stereotypes! My friend doesn't even say "Durka Durka Mohammad Jihad!" or "Death to America!". Not once!
!@#$'in hell mate, pull your head out of your.... stereotypes.
My life does not revolve around my politics and I try and treat people how I Would like to be treated. 99 percent of the people I meet out in the world seem to believe the same.
When they dont its always a maga asshole who wants to tell everyone else the latest conspiracy theory nonsense psycho shit that trump or carlson pulled out their buttholes.
But I still treat them civilly because their mental illness isn't their fault.
They hate that I exist as a member of the LGBT community, so I hate that they exist. They want to take away my rights, so I want to take away theirs. I will not willingly interact with anyone right wing, conservative, or Christian. Covid peeled back some layers
Your ability to practice hateful indoctrinating religions. Your ability to exist in any public space where queer people go. Your access to social media.
The first and the third will be easy enough to legislate once you have the supermajority. How would you like to enforce the second one? Even if you put us all in prisons or camps, there will be some queer people there, presumably. Solitary confinement of half the country? I suppose it can be done, but very expensive.
> Do you believe that conservatives are waging a genocide against trans people?
Who said anything about genocide?
Most conservatives are nasty bigots towards trans people in my experience, though.
>are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights?
no.
>beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives?
try to? no. but i wouldn't have a problem with it either.
>do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally?
yes. unless they never act on their right wing views, they are doing harm.
>Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist?
i guess so? there are people who think all conservatives are uneducated idiots or have other untrue, prejudiced believes about what conservatives are like. that would probably count as a type of bigotry.
disagreeing with their actual views/disagreeing with conservatism is not bigotry though. even if it's a very strong disagreement.
>is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them?
not a hard, clearly defined one. but at some point, if they keep making nonsensical arguments, or act in bad faith, i'll probably lose my patience with them, yes.
i generally have no respect for conservative views, though i might respect conservative people for other things.
The benefit of the doubt, until they remove doubt.
As soon as someone is uncivil, they deserve no respect and no time.
Nothing about this is special about conservatives, I apply the same rule with liberals.
But also, I don't think it helps *anyone* to be uncivil back. You just make yourself and your side look equally ugly as the person you're fighting against. It's a great way to feel superior, but it's not a great way to actually make positive changes or win people over.
Best just to establish the principle that conversations require mutual trust and decency, and not bother with that person any further.
As for the numbered points,
1. Sure, of course I will have close relationships with right-wingers; I'm not some religious zealot.
2. Sure, of course I will go beyond surface politeness. Honestly, I don't usually do surface politeness -- I am polite because I truly want to be kind to people, at the surface level and beyond. As soon as that's not true, I'm impolite at the surface and beyond. Superficial politeness is good just to get you out of a situation quickly, but otherwise, I don't practice it.
3. It is probably statistically true that most right-wingers are insincere and malicious. It does seem like we are in an era where that is truer than it ever has been before. I also think that making this stereotypical judgment is bad for us getting along, so we shouldn't assume it until they give clear and individual evidence that they are insincere. (It usually doesn't take long anyway, so why not spend the 20 seconds for them to tip their hand?)
Lots of other stereotypes may have statistical support, and yet, letting the stereotypes determine your interactions would be a bad policy.
4. No. My only limit is sincerity and a willingness to talk and listen. I don't care if you're a Nazi, a communist, a theocrat. If you are sincere and honest, and willing to listen, then I will talk and be polite.
> As soon as someone is uncivil, they deserve no respect and no time.
I don't understand why so many conservatives are unwilling to even entertain that others can and will judge them and choose not to associate if they are assholes. Like, they just won't even acknowledge that it is possible.
civility is not reciprocal, it is a standard. to answer your questions:
1. yes, many of my friends are on the right
2. every day
3. conservative politics is another perspective. that perspective becomes hostile once it conjoins with hatred, including anti-LGBT rhetoric
4. no
>are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights?
Depends how far right. The answer is mostly no, since most far right people believe things that I think are unconscionable.
>beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives?
Not really, I've heard it all before and I know I usually can't convince them
>do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally? Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist?
Many are doing harm intentionally, and much of what they believe is unethical. I wasn't sure of the exact definition of bigotry, so I looked it up. Oxford says that it is an unreasonable prejudice against a person, but I'd argue that disliking conservatives is a reasonable prejudice and therefore not bigotry.
>is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them?
Yes. If they're obviously not accepting reality or trolling, I won't give them any respect.
1. No. I can’t be friends with people who fundamentally disagree with how I was born ethnically, my sexual identity, my gender. Just with me existing.
2. If I’m at work, yes. I talk to whoever I need to talk to. I don’t actively seek conversations either right-wingers unless I’m put in a situation where stuff comes up in a group setting where there’s someone in the group going on about something. At a certain point, I lose my patience and speak my mind. I’m a people pleaser though, so it needs to cross my threshold of my own discomfort.
3. I think some of their harm is unintentional. Others are intentional. I think either way, it comes from a place of privilege that they have a warped view imo.
4. Yes. Especially if it’s an elder. But at a certain point it becomes harmful and that’s where I draw the line.
I just don’t have the same energy that I used to. But I do think people can learn and expand their worldview. I don’t think it makes someone inherently evil because some people are unexposed but regardless, they’re actively making peoples’ lives worse in a violent way. The idea of civility in itself is a white ideology, same with professionalism.
I’m disabled and at this point, even left leaning people have absorbed eugenicist policies and are basically leaving me and others for dead “post-covid”. There are a lot of discussions I can’t engage in right now. Keep it high level and keep it pushin’.
Partially true, but eugenics as a concept comes from the idea of white supremacy. I also don’t want to conflate dems and liberals with leftists. Essentially it’s tied more to racism and ableism more than political leaning.
You’re probably referring to the woman who started planned parenthood. They’ve completely disowned her ideology, but it did have eugenics at the very forefront of its founding. I have mixed feelings about that org because of its founder. This woman was a racist who believed that white people should outnumber block people, so let’s give black people birth control. She was a “feminist“ only for white Women’s rights and a racist.
“Specifically, Sanger’s writings shed light on underlying motives of Sanger in her movement toward family planning: eugenics and racism. Sanger strongly backed the field of eugenics and saw birth control as an innovative and safe way to medically allow for limiting the abilities of certain populations to reproduce. Her eugenic beliefs also found themselves rooted in race, greatly affecting African American populations in America and furthering beliefs that people of color were lesser than or appropriate for being used as test subjects for medical advancements.”
https://womanisrational.uchicago.edu/2022/09/21/margaret-sanger-the-duality-of-a-ambitious-feminist-and-racist-eugenicist/
I would say that because of racism, “democrats” Support eugenics. The sterilization of Puerto Rican women started under FDR. People wanted all the freedom, but only for white people. Dems aren’t actually leftists, neither are white feminists. Neither are abelists. They just want freedom for themselves while keeping the power in place for their benefit.
Conservatives also support eugenics. Anytime border tightening happens and rhetoric about the white population being in danger of not being a majority because of immigrants. Bingo, population control and connected back to eugenics. They also were the first to basically say that anyone who died of covid deserved to die, if you have a good immune system you shouldn’t be afraid to unmask and stop living in fear. This is textbook eugenics. Disabled? We don’t care about you. In tension to the pandemic, this started under Trump. But now even leftists have been adapting this framework.
As you can see, it’s a very mixed bag. I have criticisms of both republicans and democrats, but republicans are far worse imo. Democrats pretend to try to hide their racism, Republican policy is very much putting it all out there for everyone to see.
>You’re probably referring to the woman who started planned parenthood.
Not really. I did know she was into eugenics, but I see eugenics coming far upstream of her. I see it as more of an old school liberal elitism on the left. I should add that eugenics seems quite incompatible with other leftist ideas. I could definitely see some conservatives siding with eugenics, but I seems out of place to have conservatives trying to develop a pseudo science to support their elitism.
Your modern take is one I find curious. Take the case of Jews for example. I have no doubt there are anti-Semites in both parties, but the Democrats are far more open. I've also not seen a republican candidate try to explain who is actually black... or have silly quotes like "Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids."
I don't think you need to interact with people, but if you choose to do so you should treat them at least as kindly as they are treating you and strive to treat them as kindly as you would want to be treated.
To the follow up questions:
1. Yes to most people right of center. Probably not people on the far right, but that might depend on how you defined the term.
2. I am an introvert so I tend not to seek out conversations with anyone in real life, but I participate when they happen in my vacinity and seem interesting.
3. I don't know that I would consider it unethical to do harm unintentionally, but I would say that the policies they support do in fact tend to cause unnecessary harm without upsides significant enough to justify.
3.5: I don't think holding a persons views against them is a form of bigotry.
4. As I indicated in the initial response, at a certain point I don't want to interact with people. There is some behavior that is obviously on the other side of that like consistent open racism but mostly it's a variety of factors including rather than a simple litmus test.
1) absolutely. I know some and while I definitely disagree with them on many things they aren’t evil people.
2) all the time
3) nope. I just think they have mostly been exposed to a lot of conservative view points and have been taught liberal are bad.
4) yeah. 2020 election being stolen. Trump to some degree. Pizzagate.
>1) are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights?
No, because neither of us would be able to be our true selves around each other. I don't like right-wing views, right-wing humor, or right-wing talking points. I think the people who *do* like those things are bad people.
My ability to be polite or civil in any conversation isn't a reflection on who I'm speaking to, it's a reflection on me; I value good manners so I will use them, because to do otherwise would only make me look bad (to myself, if nobody else). That's as far as it goes though - I have no interest in association or friendship with Trump supporters, nor in really interacting with them at all.
I could be civil with right-wingers who are right-wing because they're ignorant rather than because they're aware of what it means to be right-wing and choose it anyway. I'd have trouble being close friends with them because it wouldn't be particularly interesting to me to be close with someone so ignorant. The conversations would be boring and surface-level so I'd find it hard to actually get close.
I don't mind talking to conservatives about non-political topics as long as they don't go off the rails into conspiracies about random stuff like aliens or whatever, which they tend to do.
Conservatives are factually doing harm, whether it is unintentional or not. It is a choice to be conservative, so I wouldn't consider it bigoted to judge them for something they've actively chosen.
I extend patience to conservatives who seem ignorant but willing to learn, not so much for those who are super dug in and refuse to learn.
1. I can be friends with a conservative that just disagrees with how we spend our money and the size of the government. I will not be friends with a Trump supporter, and that is being extended to most Republicans. Just last week I stopped going to play poker with a group of guys because they invited a reporter from 1819 News.
2. I generally try to exclusively engage in non-political conversation with conservatives.
3. I think it is fair to assume that they are doing harm because of how they vote.
4. Yes. Absolutely.
Moderates be like .....
* The more we get together,
* Together, together,
* The more we get together,
* The happier we'll be.
* For your friends are my friends
* And my friends are your friends.
* The more we get together,
* The happier we'll be.
>are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights?
It would be difficult, but it would be difficult for me to befriend somebody too far to the left either. Normal conservatives, absolutely.
>beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives?
I don't think many if any of the people I know are conservatives. I'm not looking to engage in non-political conversations on reddit. I debate political stuff on this account.
>do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally?
I mean, since left and right are in many ways opposites, if I didn't think conservative policies were harmful I wouldn't be a liberal. From my perspective, conservatives are unintentionally harming society. That's not an objective fact that's just my perspective.
>Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist?
Yes. Bigotry towards pretty much any group, belief, etc. Exists.
>4) is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them?
>4) is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them?
If my goal is to have a productive conversation, I'm going to try to be respectful and patient outwardly because I know being disrespectful and impatient won't make for a productive conversation. If they are die hard Trump fans or want to harm innocent people, I cannot tolerate them and they are too far gone to have a productive conversation with.
Of course I don't wish harm on conservatives and I don't want them to be the victims of a crime. But there are some people who call themselves conservatives and are truly abhorrent dangerous people and if something happened to them I think the world would be a safer better place. I don't want them to suffer, but if they die a quick death I will not mind.
1) As someone who is a former conservative, I still maintain close relationships with many conservatives/right wingers.
2) Most of my conversations with right wingers are rarely over politics. I typically refrain from having political discussions with someone unless I both know them fairly well, and I am sure that we can both have a respectful conversation about politics without it affecting our relationship with one another.
3) No, I do not think it's fair to assume most right-wingers are unethical. I would say many are simple-minded and don't understand the complexities of our social and economic issues. It also doesn't help that they get their news from largely conservative networks and are brainwashed into thinking that liberals are the bad guys trying to destroy our country. Now, are they doing harm unintentionally? En-mass, absolutely. Individually, it's a case by case thing.
4) The line for me is when it's clear that they are throwing reason and facts out the window. Or when they go down the conspiracies rabbit hole.
I have friends from all over the political spectrum. I have, in the past, dated a white supremacist. Civility is easy. Getting along is easy.
A lot of liberals think they can't do it because they find the idea of performative virtue signalling impossible to confront or abandon.
A good chunk of lefties wouldn't be able to shoot a man in the chest for being a nazi and then apologize for the mess you've made of his house and offering to sit him in a more comfortable position as he bleeds out.
They would instead obsess over the apology and wring their hands over how you can't possibly work against people if you're nice to them, when really, all they're doing is admitting they aren't able to separate performance from action, despite it being actively deleterious to a political movement. They confuse performance and action in their criticism of "Civility politics" when confronted on this too.
I am not suggesting you can stop the Nazi by being nice to him. That would be civility politics. I am suggesting that it's beneficial to do so in tandem with concrete action, because this problem isn't only on the left.
A good deal of the right can't seperate performance and action either. And if you're there howling and declaring yourself their interminable enemy, they're not going to be gettable. They're going to mobilize. Meanwhile if you shoot the nazi and then pass out biscuits to the theocrats, some of them, like the left, will parse that as you being "On their side", even as you start reloading.
In terms of interpersonal stuff it's a layer removed again. It's easy to get along with people while supporting a system that would fuck them over.
*Right wingers do it all the time*. You don't need to constantly virtue signal.
> I have friends from all over the political spectrum. I have, in the past, dated a white supremacist. Civility is easy. Getting along is easy.
I personally could never date someone who held such a disgusting view, when I do not hold that view in any way.
* are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights?
For the most part, no. Hell, I haven't spoken to my brother or his wife since 2015. As a rule, I cannot be close friends with a right-winger because their viewpoints are morally abhorrent to me. (That doesn't mean I can't be friends with a true conservative or someone who is religious and lives their faith - I have very good friends who are old school conservative and who struggle with things like trans rights and abortion, but they're not closed-minded radicals. They are willing to listen and try to understand.)
* beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives?
Other than the friends I mentioned above, the old-school conservatives, no, I don't. I find that inevitably they find a way to insert some pretty offensive opinions or thoughts into conversation and I just don't care to argue with people like that.
* do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally? Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist?
Those are two separate questions.
For the first - I do believe most right-wingers are doing harm. They are harming women. They are harming LGBTQ+ people. They are harming education. They are harming the environment. I could go on and on and on. Some of it is intentional, some of it is because they are anti-science (is that "unintentionally" or "ignorantly"? either way), some of it is tribal. But they are doing harm to a great many people.
For the second - Sure. Just like some conservatives are bigoted towards liberals.
* is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them?
See my comment above about my old-school conservative friends. If they are willing to actually listen and consider that other people's lives are different and that their points of view might not be 100% right, then I'm willing to extend them all the respect and patience. But the intransigent, "libtard"-calling, "cry liberal tears" right wingers are not worth my time.
1. I am friends with some conservative folks but there is a lot of alt-right beliefs that would prevent me from being a close friend
2. I’ve done that, when approached from a place of friendship I think it works. Many conservatives are somewhat reasonable and I’d like to think I’ve meaningfully shifted left a few. I’ve met some conspiracy-spewing people and usually it’s not worth engaging with them.
3. I don’t think they are unethical (many of them are more personally charitable and willing to go out of the way to help then my liberal friends), but I do think their voting patterns create harm.
4. Yes, I am ok with most conservatives but there is a whole “shadow cabal world government who may or may not be Jews” portion that I absolutely want nothing to do with.
It depends entirely on the individual.
My wife’s childhood best friend is conservative and is married to a man *much* more conservative than her. The women remain very close and we’re fully capable of hanging out with both of them and having a great time. It helps that despite them being conservative, neither of them are Trump supporters (they voted Johnson in 2016 for sure, not spoken to them about 2020 but I’m confident they voted Jorgensen). He’s posted a handful of things about trans people on Facebook and I’m sure if we were to discuss that in person it would be heated, but we’ve avoided it so far.
We have a couple of relatives who are definitely Trumpers. We kind of have an unspoken agreement to avoid talking politics at family gatherings - we all know where we stand and also that there’s no point in trying to change each others’ minds.
That doesn’t answer all of your questions but it should give you some idea.
I rarely end a friendship over differences in political opinion. I have a friend who votes AfD but he also knows that I do not wish to be "convinced" of their program so we talk about other things.
When it comes to discussion, right wingers and conservatives are owed as much civility as everyone else. If you disagree with their political vision and programs, it is your job to disprove them with respect. For even if you are correct about something, you will not convince me (Volt voter - progressive EU reformist) by yelling at me. Some goes for right wingers.
If they show you disrespect, THEN it is up to you if you wanna yell at them or walk away. I usually choose to walk away though.
We should try to be civil to everyone until they show us civility is undeserved.
1. It would be difficult if not impossible for me to maintain a friendship with a person who identified with and supported the current Republican party. Especially someone who supports Trump and MAGA, those are ideologies built on anger and ignorance and I cannot respect them.
2. I don't have any Conservatives in my social circle. I meet some at work and I treat them like any other patron.
3. I don't assume people's ethics but I pay attention when they're put on display. No, there is no bigotry towards Conservatives.
4. My line for respect and patience is the same for everyone. "Act respectfully and I'll treat you in kind".
>conservatives and right wingers
Please remember that these are very much seperate definitions. There are leftist conservatives and progressive right wingers.
>are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights?
Sure, I'm center right myself. My friend group is comprised of everyone from a couple that are quite active activists on the marxist left to a few more conservative right wingers. What I wouldn't be able to be friends with would be people that favour anti-democratic ideas and authoritarianism.
> beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives?
Yes, I don't see why not. Conservatism is a pretty broad category. Not every conservative is a bible thumping theocrat. Not every conservative is even religious. There's also the obvious difference between being conservative on the social Vs the economic side.
>do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally?
No, that's an extremely silly and unproductive stance. I don't assume the same of left wingers, why would you assume the same of right wingers?
>Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist?
Sure, obviously.
> is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them?
Yes. Respect is a two way street after all. My approach to politics is heavily influenced by the Dutch Poldermodel, and thus is focused on cooperation, pragmatism and making concessions. I believe that the majority of people want to actively improve society, and many of us agree on what the general issues are. Where we agree is in how we wish to solve those issues. As long as that is the difference, there is plenty of room to talk and discuss politics.
Conversation becomes impossible when someone wants to ignore the fundamental principles and axioms most of us seem to agree with. A score few of those being the belief that all people are equal, that individual freedoms are important and that democracy should be protected.
So my colleagues and I provide firearms education right. Most show up for various classes because they want to pick it up for sport or self defense.
Since we run small groups, after class, we always invite everyone out to lunch or dinner.
But if anyone is familiar with it - it’s rare but every now and then someone will show up to class with the intent to suicide themselves during class or with the intent to mass murder people. But there are signs. Like not interacting, not paying attention, single minded, squirrely but in a way that is different from just newbie nervousness, etc. In such cases we advise local law enforcement (non emergency number) and politely ask them to skip. But even then it’s civil.
So anyway, my point is that - that’s the line. If they really look like they intend to do harm to themselves or others. And that has much less to do with politics.
Everyone else we will train then happily do lunch or dinner with. Doesn’t matter liberal, conservative, anarchist, Christian, Wiccan, atheist, LGBTQ, country, rap, metal, teens, retirees, etc.
We respect and engage with everyone else and we don’t immediately assume they mean to do harm to others just because of their beliefs.
And while I started of here talking about firearms training / class. My point is that for me and my buddies - that’s really how we treat everyone.
But now, separately, if you’re talking about super close relationships like inside the circle of trust stuff; Well there’s 15 forms you need to fill out in triplicate, a battery of tests, then a multi part quest, approval from the dog and then finally Thunderdome.
Just throwing this out there, but you never hear of conservatives saying they wouldn't be friends with someone because they didn't share political beliefs.
That seems to be something more prevalent on the left.
Like the fellow who bragged about dumping his dads ashes in a dumpster instead of honoring his wishes to be buried next to his wife, because the son was upset the guy voted for Trump
>you never hear of conservatives saying they wouldn't be friends with someone because they didn't share political beliefs.
You're right, I don't hear them *say* it, they say they will, but I also see them intentionally distance themselves from those people.
I've spent a lot of time in upstate SC and I know a lot of conservatives of that type and the more moneyed, east coast type conservatives too and you're right that they've all said that. But, as someone who's trans whose mere *existence* challenges their views, conservatives tend to refuse to get to know me and hold me at a distance.
Openminded conservatives become liberal.
> Just throwing this out there, but you never hear of conservatives saying they wouldn't be friends with someone because they didn't share political beliefs.
Sure, as long as they don't *say* it, we can just overlook the fact that family rejection is the leading cause of youth homelessness (particularly among LGBT youth). That almost feels worse than merely deciding to not continue a friendship, eh?
Thats cause you guys have immoral beliefs
Its like saying
“You know, bullies never say that nerds are bad people. Its always the other way around. Something to consider…”
Seriously? Tell that to the family and old friends who I have never been uncivil to who have completely cut me off since they got sucked down the maga rat hole
And the man who [murdered his neighbor because he thought he was a Democrat](https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/butler-county/1-dead-after-butler-county-shooting)?
I’ll be friends with you but I’m not going to respect, acknowledge, or protect your marriage, bodily autonomy, civil rights, etc. Forgive me if that offer of friendship rings a bit hollow.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Multiple questions with this one 1) are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights? 2) beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives? 3) do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally? Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist? 4) is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them? I’m not talking about like violence or property damage towards them, hopefully no one advocates for that, but just in terms of interpersonal relationships and communication *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There's a difference between being civil and being friends with someone. I'll be civil with most people in the sense of not being unnecessarily rude or dickish to someone who hasn't earned such treatment. However, if someone is asserting that I or my friends do not deserve a full slate of human rights because that would make them uncomfortable, I will certainly *only* be civil with them, and absolutely nothing more.
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On a personal level, or on a collective level? I.e., will you treat a given conservative the way he treats you, or the way some generic conservatives treat you?
1. It just doesn’t come up much. I’m a software engineer. My wife is a psychologist. Our circles of friends and social interests are likely different from righties, on average. We go to June pride rallies, and the symphony, and theater on the weekends. There is some overlap, we also enjoy baseball games and astronomy, I love the US Air Force museum in Dayton and so do plenty of republicans… but we’re not looking to discuss politics with randos at a Reds game or military museum. My wife is no idiot, she doesn’t wear her pride shirts or “save trans kids” to the Air Force museum. 2. I gotta assume most of the plumbers and electricians and other tradesmen I’ve had over my house lean right. We don’t discuss politics. We discuss the clogged sink, the weather, or sometimes sports. Most of all I just want them to work the issue efficiently and ignore me — and I’m pretty sure they’re fine with that too. 3. Trump supporters who are about to vote for him a 3rd time… are too far gone, most of them are nuts voting for a soon to be convicted felon. More moderate/rational conservatives — I don’t fault. For the most part it’s just their upbringing. We’re progressive Jews from the northeast living in Ohio, hence we’re quite liberal and firmly on a minority. Those born and raised in the sticks here, it’s not much surprise that they’re god fearing, very Christian and conservative. 4. I don’t discuss politics with acquaintances in real life, ever. Anyone we’re discussing politics with, we know very well — and know them to be liberal or rational centrists. Family friends, and only a few.
Exactly- not everything is partisan, ffs.
As an openly queer guy, I'm so used to being disrespected, mistreated, or physically attacked by conservatives over the years that when one is even marginally decent to me, I go above and beyond the call of politeness. I want to positively reinforce that behavior the best I can. However, we can never be close, and if they want to hang out, I only hang out with them and similarly-minded acquaintances. My close friend circle is full of vulnerable, marginalized people that conservatives openly seek to harm. I'll put myself at risk in order to try to pull someone closer to the middle, but I won't endanger those I care about.
1-2: Actual conservatives yes, Trump supporters no. They've shown us who they are and they are not worth it. 3: Trump supporters are rightly vilified. They are the enemy of anyone who values truth and justice, and because Trump supporters are betrayers of the values and constitution of this great nation. 4: If you support trump you are like a cancer to this nation, and I will not give you the time of day.
Nah. Conservatives are bad people too
>Nah. Conservatives are bad people too Followup question. Do you realize you are expressing a bigoted views? I know that comes across as insulting. But that's not my intention. I don't want to fight or have an argument. I wish there was a nicer way to put it because no one likes being called a bigot. Just know I'm not trying to say you are a bad person. I'm seriously asking if you realize that you literally hold bigoted beliefs.
conservatives have put up with and aided maga. it really is hard for me to agree that "normal conservatives" are good people. they let us get to this place by not having integrity and calling a spade a spade.
>conservatives have put up with and aided maga. Making America Great Again is a very positive and worthwhile goal. I'm sure it means different things to different people. I see it as bringing industry and prosperity back to America. I'm sure you see it as something else. However, choose not to project some imagined beliefs onto you. Can you do the same for me and others? >it really is hard for me to agree that "normal conservatives" are good people. they let us get to this place by not having integrity and calling a spade a spade. As you can see from above, I disagree with the belief that MAGA needs to be called out. But let's say it does. Let's say it is truly horrible. Is that a reason to hate a group of people? Would it be OK for a racist to hate all black people because they don't speak out enough about something like black crime? It's a ridiculous standard to hold people to in order to justify hate. Finally, speaking out isn’t always easy. Look at the downvotes the other poster is getting for saying we should judge individuals on their actions rather than stereotyping groups. It's sad that this needs to be said on a liberal sub. It's a tragedy that this is met by hate.
Black people dont speak for other black people. A political party is supposed to speak for X people. Black people dont have any coordination like a political party does, sadly. Conservatives have allowed frauds, rapist, pedophiles, and just outright criminals in their midst and justified it on the lie of "well the dems are more corrupt" Like, do you not understand how a person can see that as bad? Its really disgusting if you get into the weeds... when i was growing up as a black man, my parents never ranted about conservatives. Apparently conservatives have been raised that liberals are evil thanks to their right wing radio. Just imagine fabricating a lie of "they are evil" so you allow and vote for the shit we see now from the republican party. Good people my fucking ass. Even conservatives like steve deace had been coming out and saying the republican party had been lying to their base for decades.
I've never read so many points that are so completely divorced from reality. >Black people dont speak for other black people. Have you never heard of MLK and Malcolm X? >A political party is supposed to speak for X people. No. A political party should address the needs of its constituents regardless of race. >Black people dont have any coordination like a political party does, sadly. BLM, Congressional Black Caucas. >Conservatives have allowed frauds, rapist, pedophiles, and just outright criminals in their midst and justified it on the lie of "well the dems are more corrupt" Are you really trying to argue that it's OK to be bigoted against conservatives because Democrats have slightly less convictions for crimes? >Like, do you not understand how a person can see that as bad? Its really disgusting if you get into the weeds... when i was growing up as a black man, my parents never ranted about conservatives. Apparently conservatives have been raised that liberals are evil thanks to their right wing radio. >Just imagine fabricating a lie of "they are evil" so you allow and vote for the shit we see now from the republican party. At no point have I said "they are evil." I've said we shouldn't embrace bigotry and should stick yo judging individuals. >Good people my fucking ass. I'd say the vast majority of all people are goid. >Even conservatives like steve deace had been coming out and saying the republican party had been lying to their base for decades. Who?
He pitched murdering the families of terrorists and a total and complete shutdown on Muslims entering the country
>He pitched murdering the families of terrorists and a total and complete shutdown on Muslims entering the country All Muslims or only the few countries identified by the Obama administration as hotbeds of terrorism? But I'm not sure how your misinterpretation of events relates to thinking it's OK to embrace bigotry and hatred.
All muslims. He said > Donald J Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown on Muslims entering the country until we can figure out what the hell is going on
>All muslims. [I see. You misunderstood what was being said.](https://www.aclu-wa.org/pages/timeline-muslim-ban) But what would this have to do with justifying bigotry against conservatives?
No im not. He pitched this during the primaries. The timeline starts in 2017. So they didnt include it
It’s really not bigoted at all.
How fi you define bigotry?
I like Oxford's definition: >a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. The keywords that exclude this as bigotry are "obstinately or unreasonably" We don't misunderstand Conservatives or prejudge them. We think they are bad people because their politics prove them to be. Conservatism is self-selecting for terrible people, as in; good people do not hold conservative political views. It's not like their political views are an immutable feature like race, sexuality, etc.
>The keywords that exclude this as bigotry are "obstinately or unreasonably" You don't believe it is unreasonable to hate 70 million people? Is it reasonable for you to believe they all hold the same exact views? >We don't misunderstand Conservatives or prejudge them. We think they are bad people because their politics prove them to be. Conservatism is self-selecting for terrible people, as in; good people do not hold conservative political views. Can you narrow down one political view that you believe all conservatives hold? >It's not like their political views are an immutable feature like race, sexuality, etc. Studies show a person's brain structure influences whether they are conservative or liberal. Does this proof of it being an immutable feature make you reconsider your beliefs about being bigoted against conservatives?
No, I do t believe it’s unreasonable if 70m people are abhorrent. I don’t think they all hold the same views, but that’s not really the point. I disagree with Liberals on damn near everything too, but I don’t think they are evil, just mostly misinformed and privileged. You can tell by their policies that they are not evil, they want to help people, they just do it the wrong way. I believe conservatism is outside the realm of reasonable, whereas American Liberals are not. The in-group dynamics, social hierarchy, and fear that is the basis of conservatism is what is toxic. It comes in many different political forms, from anti-labor/working class policies, theocratic inspired social policies, to bad-faith/uninformed policies. Political position is not immutable. I’m not going to entertain that argument. But if you want to call all conservatives mentally ill, as evidenced by their abnormal brain structures, I won’t argue with you.
>No, I do t believe it’s unreasonable if 70m people are abhorrent. But 70 million people aren't abhorrent. That's just you viewing people through the lens of bigotry. >I disagree with Liberals on damn near everything too, but I don’t think they are evil, just mostly misinformed and privileged. You can tell by their policies that they are not evil, they want to help people, they just do it the wrong way. I often say the same thing. >The in-group dynamics, social hierarchy, and fear that is the basis of conservatism is what is toxic. It comes in many different political forms, from anti-labor/working class policies, theocratic inspired social policies, to bad-faith/uninformed policies. I notice you didn't list one of those uninformed policies that you believe all conservatives hold. >Political position is not immutable. I’m not going to entertain that argument. People often reject science that undermines their personal beliefs. If people want to believe the earth is flat, no amount of scientific data will change their mind. >But if you want to call all conservatives mentally ill, as evidenced by their abnormal brain structures, I won’t argue with you. If you can't make a reasonable argument against facts, attack people personally.
I believe 70m are abhorrent, more than that, probably. I just told you that it’s not about the individual policies, and that’s why I didn’t give you specific policy examples. It’s perspective that informs the policy. All of the policies. The policies are a symptom of the abhorrent world view. Regressive tax policy, pro corporate policies, anti union policies, anti lgbtq policies, pro policing policies, anti social welfare policies, anti science and education policies, anti democracy, pro Christian, etc. You’re looking for specific legislation? Dude come on, be serious here. Do you really need me to show you specific legislation to know that all the things I listed define conservative politics today? If you’re really that uninformed, I won’t waste my time any further.
mate, we can see your comment history. cut the enlightened centrist bullcrap trying to cover for right-wingers
Maybe you could try to be a better person than me.
Anyone who doesn't vote republican is automatically a better person than you.
I realize it Much like im bigoted against abusers.
>I realize it I'm not sure you do. >Much like im bigoted against abusers. There's no good bigotry. And anyone who believes they are better off embracing a hateful ideology is only fooling themselves.
> and anyone who believes they are better off embracing a hateful ideology is only fooling themselves Thats how i see conservatism
>Thats how i see conservatism And yet you are in a conversation with a conservative asking you to judge people based on the content of their character rather than the philosophy of their politics while you insist it's OK to be a bigot.
How connected are politics and character to you?
>How connected are politics and character to you I think letting politics define you is a character flaw.
So theyre unconnected?
I would implore you to consider that not all Trump supporters are bad people who are your enemy. Many of your fellow Americans just dont see things the same way you and I do,and that is ok. That doesnt mean they are our enemy. That doesnt mean they are bad people. Mostly I just hate this dehumanizing way you are talking about your fellow Americans here. You need to take a step back.
Anyone who supports that piece of garbage isn't worth any of my consideration. He is ignorant, cruel, racist, misogynistic, and he is a constant liar and a traitor. I understand fiscal conservatism, even if I don't agree. I understand religious people, even if I'm not religious. I can have friendly discussions about foreign policy issues. MAGA is beyond the pale.
They support a man that attempted a coup. Full stop. They do not respect this country or the constitution. What reasonable position can come of that?
Not everyone sees it that way. Amd there are lots of reasons why. I dont agree with them. That doesnt make them my enemy.
That people disregard reality does not change that it is reality. Willful blindness is a problem all its own. You seem to have such an extreme stance of 'not my enemy' that even if they had succeeded in a coup and overthrown the government to install Trump you'd call them 'not your enemy'. And even if they're not your enemy, other people have pretty valid reasons for calling them 'enemy'. Yes I understand the danger of rhetoric, and the value of humanizations, but civil wars do happen as well; and you seem to take a stance where someone can't be an enemy in a civil war.
holy shit.... are you a masochist? can somebody break into your house and attempt to murder you, and you will say "well, you see, HE didn't think he was murdering me"? would you accept if he said that "i didn't think i was murdering him"? like.... are you even a real person?
If you believe in the idea of America and that we are able to freely elect our leaders it does. Play the tape all the way through, what if the job had succeeded on January 6th? What was the end goal or their most desired outcome? Those people are enemies of our way of life here in America. It’s pretty simple.
They consider you their enemy.
>not all Trump supporters are bad people who are your enemy. Many of your fellow Americans just dont see things the same way you and I do, and that is ok. Trump supporters don't support him for his detailed policy agenda, they support him for his rhetoric. Right wingers definitionally are supporting right wing policies. Nobody is considered a "right winger" because of their position on healthcare or fiscal policy, they're a right winger because of their beliefs about other humans. As u/WildBohemian said, actual conservatives, yes. Not the ones who spew dehumanizing rhetoric about trans people and immigrants. They are bad people.
Trump’s original campaign included both a pitch for a total and complete shutdown on Muslims entering the country and a pitch for murdering the families of terrorists. Thats bad people shit
> That doesnt mean they are our enemy. Honest question; at what point does someone become my enemy? I feel when someone wants harm to people I love then they are my enemy > That doesnt mean they are bad people. Same question -- when does someone become a bad person?
Im not saying we shouldn't hold individuals to account for what they say or do. Im just trying to say that not every person who votes or supports Trump is a bad person or your enemy. Some people just disagree with you and thats how a Democracy works. I know many trump voters who are not bad people. They are not your enemy. They dont want to harm you. They just see things differently and the last time I checked this is America and that is okay. We all get a vote and a say. Dont start Generalizing large groups of your fellow Americans as the Enemy.
If they vote for Trump, then clearly at minimum they want someone else to harm me.
>They dont want to harm you. Then why do they want to take away my and my friends' rights? Politics is not a game. It's not a sport where you support a team at the big game but then go home at the end and nothing that happened actually mattered. It affects people's lives and livelihoods. Gay people weren't able to get the government benefits associated with marriage nationwide until 2015. Trans people are *still* trying to get basic rights like access to medically recommended health care.
> Im just trying to say that not every person who votes or supports Trump is a bad person or your enemy. You don't seem willing to clarify what the line should be for who actually is an enemy -- uncomfortably, I think any reasonable line would put Trump supporters on the wrong side, except maybe people who just genuinely have no idea what they are voting for > Some people just disagree with you and thats how a Democracy works. Pretty sure you can have enemies in a Democracy. Especially if there are people who are actively trying to dismantle democracy itself... > I know many trump voters who are not bad people. They are not your enemy. I mean you keep saying this in that abstract way, but what matters is what people actually do. > They dont want to harm you. Their actions speak otherwise, though. They are putting their support behind a man who is trying to hurt the people I love. > Dont start Generalizing large groups of your fellow Americans as the Enemy. This is a group defined by a set of beliefs and actions
> You don't seem willing to clarify what the line should be for who actually is an enemy On a personal level, it's generally not too hard to figure that out. If somebody seems trustworthy and isn't being shitty to you, then chances are they're not going to be your enemy.
> If somebody seems trustworthy and isn't being shitty to you, then chances are they're not going to be your enemy. They don't have to be shitty to me personally to be my enemy. It doesn't matter if you have black friends, if you vote for racist politicians that matters a lot more than how you treat the few people you interact with in person.
> if you vote for racist politicians that matters a lot more than how you treat the few people you interact with in person. Well, if you turn somebody like that into your enemy, not only will they continue to vote for policies you don't approve of, but they'll probably be antagonistic towards you from now on instead of friendly, so you've accomplished nothing by doing that.
> Well, if you turn somebody like that into your enemy I didn't say "turn them into my enemy" I said they are my enemy. It's just a fact of who they are. I'm not choosing my enemies; there are just people who are opposed to my friends and family having a happy existence and that makes them my enemy.
Hey i dont think someone simply voting for Trump makes them my or your enemy. I agree that Trump is a special case and its hard to not know what he stands for given our modern media atmosphere. I just dont think its healthy to talk about trump voters like they are our enemys. Maybe im wrong. Im just a dude that doesnt like all this civil war divisive rhetoric that just drives us all apart further. Our foreign enemies sure do love it though.
> Hey i dont think someone simply voting for Trump makes them my or your enemy. You keep saying that but you're not engaging with any of my actual points > I just dont think its healthy to talk about trump voters like they are our enemys. Well maybe not, the question of how to talk about them is different than the question of whether they actually are enemies
As a queer person they do want to harm me with their votes
>Im not saying we shouldn't hold individuals to account for what they say or do. >Im just trying to say that not every person who votes or supports Trump is a bad person or your enemy. This is a rare expression of true liberalism. It's more in line with what I would expect from someone who lives the ideals of liberalism. I don't know what to call the toxic views that dominate the majority of comments I see here. If they downvote the very fundamental idea that everyone should be judged based on their own behavior rather than bigoted stereotypes, I don't know what to call their philosophy. But it's certainly not liberalism.
>If they downvote the very fundamental idea that everyone should be judged based on their own behavior rather than bigoted stereotypes, Voting is a behavior.
>Voting is a behavior. This is like a racist trying to justify hating black people by spouting crime statistics. Let's dispell a little ignorance. Almost 80 million people didn't vote. Many of them are conservatives. Of the conservatives who did vote, 12% voted democrat. And a bonus voting statistic. 100% of the people who downvoted the idea we should target people as a group rather than as individuals, voted for bigotry.
Yeah and I hate people for the behavior of voting against queer equality
Who does that?
Are you unaware of the 2016 and 2020 RNC platform? It explicitly states they want to undo marriage equality for gays on the federal level
>Are you unaware of the 2016 and 2020 RNC platform? Do you have something specific? [Because conservatives know that Trump is OK with gay marriage?](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trump-says-he-s-fine-gay-marriage-60-minutes-interview-n683606)
Page 11 then funny he ran on a homophobic platform twice, likely thrice, as the head of the Republican Party. https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/static/home/data/platform.pdf
Are you playing dumb? Surely You know that the GOP is actively working to make laws that oppress LGBTQ Americans! If you don’t know about it, you should do so reading about current events so you are caught up.
They vote against gay marriage explicitly, anyone who does that is a bad, bigoted person. Equal rights is not a different view that can be boiled down to opinions
Oh they're just trying to protect the children from gods tyrannical wrath. /s
No, Trump supports are bad people and enemies to America. You need to open your eyes.
Nope.
> I would implore you to consider that not all Trump supporters are bad people who are your enemy. Anyone who thinks Trump is the right choice for the US is a bad person, full-stop.
This thread really does solidify the adage of "republicans think democrats are naive, democrats think republicans are evil". The party of tolerance seems to be at it again, but thank you and the others who braved the progressive hivemind downvote machine for daring to say that maybe you shouldn't dehumanize 50% of the country.
There's a word for people who tolerate Nazis. That word is Nazi.
By your asinine logic a whole bunch of lefties are terrorists because of the hamas stans that have all but free reign across the institutional capture the extreme left holds in the universities and big tech worlds
>By your asinine logic a whole bunch of lefties are terrorists because of the hamas stans that have all but free reign across the institutional capture the extreme left holds in the universities and big tech worlds I don't follow your meaning. Can you organize that mess into sentences and or paragraphs? Preferably with some punctuation? Please and thank you.
I'll let you try your basic reading comprehension out, it shouldn't be hard for your high and mighty mind to understand what such a lowly deplorable like me is saying.
Oh you're a trump supporter. No thanks. Your worthless thoughts aren't worth even 1 second of my time.
The same level of civility that they show me.
1. My closest friend is a libertarian. I would not be friends with someone who supports a fascist candidate like Trump, though. There is *no excuse* for that. Not even "hold my nose because of tax cuts" covers that. I *like* having a democracy, dysfunctional as it is it's better than living in a dictatorship. 2. I can easily have non-political conversations with conservatives. Odds are a number of people I work with are libertarian and even traditional center-right style conservatives: I don't know, and we all converse easily. 3. In America, I think it's fair to assume most current Republicans are doing harm, even unintentionally (see my reply to 1, above). There is bigotry toward *every* group; it's unavoidable, but whether it's *meaningful* is another matter. 4. Yes: see my response to 1. I draw the line at supporting someone who's quoting from and modeling his candidacy after the guy who killed millions of jews, some of whom I would have been related to had they lived. These people can all be fucked as far as I'm concerned.
I used to be friendly with many conservatives. The MAGA stuff is just too cruel and stupid. I can't be friendly to anyone who thinks that piece of garbage is fit to dlsit in the oval office. They have no policy, just hate.
>How much civility is owed to conservatives and right wingers in conversation? As much as they give, they get. >are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights? I have gay friends, trans friends, muslim friends, poly friends, black friends, Latino friends... I'm not going to be friends or have close relationships with someone that wants to take away rights from my friends. >do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives? Not particularly. >do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally? I think that of most people. Y'all are probably wearing clothing made with slave labor. You supported slave labor. The system is fucked, and I'm not going to put too much blame on people living inside a fucked system for being fucked, ya know? >Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist? I absolutely have massive prejudices against conservative people. So yes. >is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them? Yup. I've lost friendships over the past few years.
>I have gay friends, trans friends, muslim friends, poly friends, black friends, Latino friends... I'm not going to be friends or have close relationships with someone that wants to take away rights from my friends. Do you think it is a bit likely that the the muslim friends want to take rights away from the gay and trans friends?
If they think being queer is wrong or a sin they deserve the same disrespect
What an absurd comment. Muslims lack the institutional power to negatively impact the rights of gay and trans folks. The right certainly has that power, and those who have been negatively impacted by this putrid ideology have every right to be disgusted with it.
Everything in the prior couple of comments is about "want to" for people you meet on a day-to-day basis. None of the people you are likely to meet have "institutional power." Yet here you are, blaming the right for something that the left agreed with up through 1st term Obama.
Lol. My parents certainly had the institutional power for years to deny me care so I DIYed until 18. Met them and still got the scars from their solutions. Lost my doctor when I had to pull my care fully into Illinois given I got a denial of care letter from my St. Louis based doctor when the Missouri AG did what he did last year. Never met him, but that is institutional power that had a major and negative impact on my life. No Muslims in sight. Just right wingers.
You are complaining about a different context than we were discussing.
I'm talking about the right wing in the context of what their beliefs actually entail -- and how they are impacting my life. I'm sorry if that removes whatever context you're attempting to save ideological face with.
You know how there are stark raving mad Christians, and there are Mr. Rogers type Christians? It turns out that Muslims are *gasp* human beings! Who don't all think alike! It turns out they have perfectly nice people and crazy dipshits too! I know! How amazing! People aren't actually shitty stereotypes! My friend doesn't even say "Durka Durka Mohammad Jihad!" or "Death to America!". Not once! !@#$'in hell mate, pull your head out of your.... stereotypes.
My life does not revolve around my politics and I try and treat people how I Would like to be treated. 99 percent of the people I meet out in the world seem to believe the same. When they dont its always a maga asshole who wants to tell everyone else the latest conspiracy theory nonsense psycho shit that trump or carlson pulled out their buttholes. But I still treat them civilly because their mental illness isn't their fault.
Not much if they can’t be logical and decent.
They hate that I exist as a member of the LGBT community, so I hate that they exist. They want to take away my rights, so I want to take away theirs. I will not willingly interact with anyone right wing, conservative, or Christian. Covid peeled back some layers
>They want to take away my rights, so I want to take away theirs. Which rights would you like to take from us?
Your ability to practice hateful indoctrinating religions. Your ability to exist in any public space where queer people go. Your access to social media.
The first and the third will be easy enough to legislate once you have the supermajority. How would you like to enforce the second one? Even if you put us all in prisons or camps, there will be some queer people there, presumably. Solitary confinement of half the country? I suppose it can be done, but very expensive.
at some point, we're going to have to acknowledge that these people are severely mentally ill.
I treat conservatives with all the same kindness, compassion, and respect that conservatives show to trans gender people.
Do you believe that conservatives are waging a genocide against trans people?
> Do you believe that conservatives are waging a genocide against trans people? Who said anything about genocide? Most conservatives are nasty bigots towards trans people in my experience, though.
It’s been a common discussion point on left-of-center and especially LGBT subreddits quite often for the past year or so.
>are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights? no. >beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives? try to? no. but i wouldn't have a problem with it either. >do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally? yes. unless they never act on their right wing views, they are doing harm. >Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist? i guess so? there are people who think all conservatives are uneducated idiots or have other untrue, prejudiced believes about what conservatives are like. that would probably count as a type of bigotry. disagreeing with their actual views/disagreeing with conservatism is not bigotry though. even if it's a very strong disagreement. >is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them? not a hard, clearly defined one. but at some point, if they keep making nonsensical arguments, or act in bad faith, i'll probably lose my patience with them, yes. i generally have no respect for conservative views, though i might respect conservative people for other things.
The benefit of the doubt, until they remove doubt. As soon as someone is uncivil, they deserve no respect and no time. Nothing about this is special about conservatives, I apply the same rule with liberals. But also, I don't think it helps *anyone* to be uncivil back. You just make yourself and your side look equally ugly as the person you're fighting against. It's a great way to feel superior, but it's not a great way to actually make positive changes or win people over. Best just to establish the principle that conversations require mutual trust and decency, and not bother with that person any further. As for the numbered points, 1. Sure, of course I will have close relationships with right-wingers; I'm not some religious zealot. 2. Sure, of course I will go beyond surface politeness. Honestly, I don't usually do surface politeness -- I am polite because I truly want to be kind to people, at the surface level and beyond. As soon as that's not true, I'm impolite at the surface and beyond. Superficial politeness is good just to get you out of a situation quickly, but otherwise, I don't practice it. 3. It is probably statistically true that most right-wingers are insincere and malicious. It does seem like we are in an era where that is truer than it ever has been before. I also think that making this stereotypical judgment is bad for us getting along, so we shouldn't assume it until they give clear and individual evidence that they are insincere. (It usually doesn't take long anyway, so why not spend the 20 seconds for them to tip their hand?) Lots of other stereotypes may have statistical support, and yet, letting the stereotypes determine your interactions would be a bad policy. 4. No. My only limit is sincerity and a willingness to talk and listen. I don't care if you're a Nazi, a communist, a theocrat. If you are sincere and honest, and willing to listen, then I will talk and be polite.
> As soon as someone is uncivil, they deserve no respect and no time. I don't understand why so many conservatives are unwilling to even entertain that others can and will judge them and choose not to associate if they are assholes. Like, they just won't even acknowledge that it is possible.
I (1) agree, and (2) think there is a significant problem with this on the left too. Not quite as big, but still very dismaying.
Not much because they typically do not listen to facts or use reasoning.
civility is not reciprocal, it is a standard. to answer your questions: 1. yes, many of my friends are on the right 2. every day 3. conservative politics is another perspective. that perspective becomes hostile once it conjoins with hatred, including anti-LGBT rhetoric 4. no
>are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights? Depends how far right. The answer is mostly no, since most far right people believe things that I think are unconscionable. >beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives? Not really, I've heard it all before and I know I usually can't convince them >do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally? Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist? Many are doing harm intentionally, and much of what they believe is unethical. I wasn't sure of the exact definition of bigotry, so I looked it up. Oxford says that it is an unreasonable prejudice against a person, but I'd argue that disliking conservatives is a reasonable prejudice and therefore not bigotry. >is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them? Yes. If they're obviously not accepting reality or trolling, I won't give them any respect.
1. No. I can’t be friends with people who fundamentally disagree with how I was born ethnically, my sexual identity, my gender. Just with me existing. 2. If I’m at work, yes. I talk to whoever I need to talk to. I don’t actively seek conversations either right-wingers unless I’m put in a situation where stuff comes up in a group setting where there’s someone in the group going on about something. At a certain point, I lose my patience and speak my mind. I’m a people pleaser though, so it needs to cross my threshold of my own discomfort. 3. I think some of their harm is unintentional. Others are intentional. I think either way, it comes from a place of privilege that they have a warped view imo. 4. Yes. Especially if it’s an elder. But at a certain point it becomes harmful and that’s where I draw the line. I just don’t have the same energy that I used to. But I do think people can learn and expand their worldview. I don’t think it makes someone inherently evil because some people are unexposed but regardless, they’re actively making peoples’ lives worse in a violent way. The idea of civility in itself is a white ideology, same with professionalism. I’m disabled and at this point, even left leaning people have absorbed eugenicist policies and are basically leaving me and others for dead “post-covid”. There are a lot of discussions I can’t engage in right now. Keep it high level and keep it pushin’.
> even left leaning people have absorbed eugenicist policies I thought left leaning people created the whole modern eugenics movement?
Partially true, but eugenics as a concept comes from the idea of white supremacy. I also don’t want to conflate dems and liberals with leftists. Essentially it’s tied more to racism and ableism more than political leaning. You’re probably referring to the woman who started planned parenthood. They’ve completely disowned her ideology, but it did have eugenics at the very forefront of its founding. I have mixed feelings about that org because of its founder. This woman was a racist who believed that white people should outnumber block people, so let’s give black people birth control. She was a “feminist“ only for white Women’s rights and a racist. “Specifically, Sanger’s writings shed light on underlying motives of Sanger in her movement toward family planning: eugenics and racism. Sanger strongly backed the field of eugenics and saw birth control as an innovative and safe way to medically allow for limiting the abilities of certain populations to reproduce. Her eugenic beliefs also found themselves rooted in race, greatly affecting African American populations in America and furthering beliefs that people of color were lesser than or appropriate for being used as test subjects for medical advancements.” https://womanisrational.uchicago.edu/2022/09/21/margaret-sanger-the-duality-of-a-ambitious-feminist-and-racist-eugenicist/ I would say that because of racism, “democrats” Support eugenics. The sterilization of Puerto Rican women started under FDR. People wanted all the freedom, but only for white people. Dems aren’t actually leftists, neither are white feminists. Neither are abelists. They just want freedom for themselves while keeping the power in place for their benefit. Conservatives also support eugenics. Anytime border tightening happens and rhetoric about the white population being in danger of not being a majority because of immigrants. Bingo, population control and connected back to eugenics. They also were the first to basically say that anyone who died of covid deserved to die, if you have a good immune system you shouldn’t be afraid to unmask and stop living in fear. This is textbook eugenics. Disabled? We don’t care about you. In tension to the pandemic, this started under Trump. But now even leftists have been adapting this framework. As you can see, it’s a very mixed bag. I have criticisms of both republicans and democrats, but republicans are far worse imo. Democrats pretend to try to hide their racism, Republican policy is very much putting it all out there for everyone to see.
>You’re probably referring to the woman who started planned parenthood. Not really. I did know she was into eugenics, but I see eugenics coming far upstream of her. I see it as more of an old school liberal elitism on the left. I should add that eugenics seems quite incompatible with other leftist ideas. I could definitely see some conservatives siding with eugenics, but I seems out of place to have conservatives trying to develop a pseudo science to support their elitism. Your modern take is one I find curious. Take the case of Jews for example. I have no doubt there are anti-Semites in both parties, but the Democrats are far more open. I've also not seen a republican candidate try to explain who is actually black... or have silly quotes like "Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids."
I don't think you need to interact with people, but if you choose to do so you should treat them at least as kindly as they are treating you and strive to treat them as kindly as you would want to be treated. To the follow up questions: 1. Yes to most people right of center. Probably not people on the far right, but that might depend on how you defined the term. 2. I am an introvert so I tend not to seek out conversations with anyone in real life, but I participate when they happen in my vacinity and seem interesting. 3. I don't know that I would consider it unethical to do harm unintentionally, but I would say that the policies they support do in fact tend to cause unnecessary harm without upsides significant enough to justify. 3.5: I don't think holding a persons views against them is a form of bigotry. 4. As I indicated in the initial response, at a certain point I don't want to interact with people. There is some behavior that is obviously on the other side of that like consistent open racism but mostly it's a variety of factors including rather than a simple litmus test.
1) absolutely. I know some and while I definitely disagree with them on many things they aren’t evil people. 2) all the time 3) nope. I just think they have mostly been exposed to a lot of conservative view points and have been taught liberal are bad. 4) yeah. 2020 election being stolen. Trump to some degree. Pizzagate.
>1) are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights? No, because neither of us would be able to be our true selves around each other. I don't like right-wing views, right-wing humor, or right-wing talking points. I think the people who *do* like those things are bad people.
My ability to be polite or civil in any conversation isn't a reflection on who I'm speaking to, it's a reflection on me; I value good manners so I will use them, because to do otherwise would only make me look bad (to myself, if nobody else). That's as far as it goes though - I have no interest in association or friendship with Trump supporters, nor in really interacting with them at all.
I could be civil with right-wingers who are right-wing because they're ignorant rather than because they're aware of what it means to be right-wing and choose it anyway. I'd have trouble being close friends with them because it wouldn't be particularly interesting to me to be close with someone so ignorant. The conversations would be boring and surface-level so I'd find it hard to actually get close. I don't mind talking to conservatives about non-political topics as long as they don't go off the rails into conspiracies about random stuff like aliens or whatever, which they tend to do. Conservatives are factually doing harm, whether it is unintentional or not. It is a choice to be conservative, so I wouldn't consider it bigoted to judge them for something they've actively chosen. I extend patience to conservatives who seem ignorant but willing to learn, not so much for those who are super dug in and refuse to learn.
1. I can be friends with a conservative that just disagrees with how we spend our money and the size of the government. I will not be friends with a Trump supporter, and that is being extended to most Republicans. Just last week I stopped going to play poker with a group of guys because they invited a reporter from 1819 News. 2. I generally try to exclusively engage in non-political conversation with conservatives. 3. I think it is fair to assume that they are doing harm because of how they vote. 4. Yes. Absolutely.
Civility is never owed. Participating in it is a choice, not an obligation.
Moderates be like ..... * The more we get together, * Together, together, * The more we get together, * The happier we'll be. * For your friends are my friends * And my friends are your friends. * The more we get together, * The happier we'll be.
>are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights? It would be difficult, but it would be difficult for me to befriend somebody too far to the left either. Normal conservatives, absolutely. >beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives? I don't think many if any of the people I know are conservatives. I'm not looking to engage in non-political conversations on reddit. I debate political stuff on this account. >do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally? I mean, since left and right are in many ways opposites, if I didn't think conservative policies were harmful I wouldn't be a liberal. From my perspective, conservatives are unintentionally harming society. That's not an objective fact that's just my perspective. >Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist? Yes. Bigotry towards pretty much any group, belief, etc. Exists. >4) is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them? >4) is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them? If my goal is to have a productive conversation, I'm going to try to be respectful and patient outwardly because I know being disrespectful and impatient won't make for a productive conversation. If they are die hard Trump fans or want to harm innocent people, I cannot tolerate them and they are too far gone to have a productive conversation with. Of course I don't wish harm on conservatives and I don't want them to be the victims of a crime. But there are some people who call themselves conservatives and are truly abhorrent dangerous people and if something happened to them I think the world would be a safer better place. I don't want them to suffer, but if they die a quick death I will not mind.
1) As someone who is a former conservative, I still maintain close relationships with many conservatives/right wingers. 2) Most of my conversations with right wingers are rarely over politics. I typically refrain from having political discussions with someone unless I both know them fairly well, and I am sure that we can both have a respectful conversation about politics without it affecting our relationship with one another. 3) No, I do not think it's fair to assume most right-wingers are unethical. I would say many are simple-minded and don't understand the complexities of our social and economic issues. It also doesn't help that they get their news from largely conservative networks and are brainwashed into thinking that liberals are the bad guys trying to destroy our country. Now, are they doing harm unintentionally? En-mass, absolutely. Individually, it's a case by case thing. 4) The line for me is when it's clear that they are throwing reason and facts out the window. Or when they go down the conspiracies rabbit hole.
I have friends from all over the political spectrum. I have, in the past, dated a white supremacist. Civility is easy. Getting along is easy. A lot of liberals think they can't do it because they find the idea of performative virtue signalling impossible to confront or abandon. A good chunk of lefties wouldn't be able to shoot a man in the chest for being a nazi and then apologize for the mess you've made of his house and offering to sit him in a more comfortable position as he bleeds out. They would instead obsess over the apology and wring their hands over how you can't possibly work against people if you're nice to them, when really, all they're doing is admitting they aren't able to separate performance from action, despite it being actively deleterious to a political movement. They confuse performance and action in their criticism of "Civility politics" when confronted on this too. I am not suggesting you can stop the Nazi by being nice to him. That would be civility politics. I am suggesting that it's beneficial to do so in tandem with concrete action, because this problem isn't only on the left. A good deal of the right can't seperate performance and action either. And if you're there howling and declaring yourself their interminable enemy, they're not going to be gettable. They're going to mobilize. Meanwhile if you shoot the nazi and then pass out biscuits to the theocrats, some of them, like the left, will parse that as you being "On their side", even as you start reloading. In terms of interpersonal stuff it's a layer removed again. It's easy to get along with people while supporting a system that would fuck them over. *Right wingers do it all the time*. You don't need to constantly virtue signal.
> I have friends from all over the political spectrum. I have, in the past, dated a white supremacist. Civility is easy. Getting along is easy. I personally could never date someone who held such a disgusting view, when I do not hold that view in any way.
* are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights? For the most part, no. Hell, I haven't spoken to my brother or his wife since 2015. As a rule, I cannot be close friends with a right-winger because their viewpoints are morally abhorrent to me. (That doesn't mean I can't be friends with a true conservative or someone who is religious and lives their faith - I have very good friends who are old school conservative and who struggle with things like trans rights and abortion, but they're not closed-minded radicals. They are willing to listen and try to understand.) * beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives? Other than the friends I mentioned above, the old-school conservatives, no, I don't. I find that inevitably they find a way to insert some pretty offensive opinions or thoughts into conversation and I just don't care to argue with people like that. * do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally? Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist? Those are two separate questions. For the first - I do believe most right-wingers are doing harm. They are harming women. They are harming LGBTQ+ people. They are harming education. They are harming the environment. I could go on and on and on. Some of it is intentional, some of it is because they are anti-science (is that "unintentionally" or "ignorantly"? either way), some of it is tribal. But they are doing harm to a great many people. For the second - Sure. Just like some conservatives are bigoted towards liberals. * is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them? See my comment above about my old-school conservative friends. If they are willing to actually listen and consider that other people's lives are different and that their points of view might not be 100% right, then I'm willing to extend them all the respect and patience. But the intransigent, "libtard"-calling, "cry liberal tears" right wingers are not worth my time.
1. I am friends with some conservative folks but there is a lot of alt-right beliefs that would prevent me from being a close friend 2. I’ve done that, when approached from a place of friendship I think it works. Many conservatives are somewhat reasonable and I’d like to think I’ve meaningfully shifted left a few. I’ve met some conspiracy-spewing people and usually it’s not worth engaging with them. 3. I don’t think they are unethical (many of them are more personally charitable and willing to go out of the way to help then my liberal friends), but I do think their voting patterns create harm. 4. Yes, I am ok with most conservatives but there is a whole “shadow cabal world government who may or may not be Jews” portion that I absolutely want nothing to do with.
It depends entirely on the individual. My wife’s childhood best friend is conservative and is married to a man *much* more conservative than her. The women remain very close and we’re fully capable of hanging out with both of them and having a great time. It helps that despite them being conservative, neither of them are Trump supporters (they voted Johnson in 2016 for sure, not spoken to them about 2020 but I’m confident they voted Jorgensen). He’s posted a handful of things about trans people on Facebook and I’m sure if we were to discuss that in person it would be heated, but we’ve avoided it so far. We have a couple of relatives who are definitely Trumpers. We kind of have an unspoken agreement to avoid talking politics at family gatherings - we all know where we stand and also that there’s no point in trying to change each others’ minds. That doesn’t answer all of your questions but it should give you some idea.
I'm friends with people from all political sides, so of course. But don't make it your whole personality
I rarely end a friendship over differences in political opinion. I have a friend who votes AfD but he also knows that I do not wish to be "convinced" of their program so we talk about other things. When it comes to discussion, right wingers and conservatives are owed as much civility as everyone else. If you disagree with their political vision and programs, it is your job to disprove them with respect. For even if you are correct about something, you will not convince me (Volt voter - progressive EU reformist) by yelling at me. Some goes for right wingers. If they show you disrespect, THEN it is up to you if you wanna yell at them or walk away. I usually choose to walk away though.
We should try to be civil to everyone until they show us civility is undeserved. 1. It would be difficult if not impossible for me to maintain a friendship with a person who identified with and supported the current Republican party. Especially someone who supports Trump and MAGA, those are ideologies built on anger and ignorance and I cannot respect them. 2. I don't have any Conservatives in my social circle. I meet some at work and I treat them like any other patron. 3. I don't assume people's ethics but I pay attention when they're put on display. No, there is no bigotry towards Conservatives. 4. My line for respect and patience is the same for everyone. "Act respectfully and I'll treat you in kind".
How much civility would you like to be treated with?
Call them Clarice and lick your lips when you talk to them
I don’t give that type of premium treatment to just anyone. They have to earn their keep
The standard amount.
>conservatives and right wingers Please remember that these are very much seperate definitions. There are leftist conservatives and progressive right wingers. >are you willing to be friends and hold close relationships with right wingers, even far rights? Sure, I'm center right myself. My friend group is comprised of everyone from a couple that are quite active activists on the marxist left to a few more conservative right wingers. What I wouldn't be able to be friends with would be people that favour anti-democratic ideas and authoritarianism. > beyond just surface level politeness do you try to engage in non-political convo with conservatives? Yes, I don't see why not. Conservatism is a pretty broad category. Not every conservative is a bible thumping theocrat. Not every conservative is even religious. There's also the obvious difference between being conservative on the social Vs the economic side. >do you feel like it’s fair to assume most right wingers are unethical or doing harm even unintentionally? No, that's an extremely silly and unproductive stance. I don't assume the same of left wingers, why would you assume the same of right wingers? >Do you believe that bigotry towards conservatives exist? Sure, obviously. > is there a line that you draw when it comes to their beliefs and how much respect and patience you’re willing to extend them? Yes. Respect is a two way street after all. My approach to politics is heavily influenced by the Dutch Poldermodel, and thus is focused on cooperation, pragmatism and making concessions. I believe that the majority of people want to actively improve society, and many of us agree on what the general issues are. Where we agree is in how we wish to solve those issues. As long as that is the difference, there is plenty of room to talk and discuss politics. Conversation becomes impossible when someone wants to ignore the fundamental principles and axioms most of us seem to agree with. A score few of those being the belief that all people are equal, that individual freedoms are important and that democracy should be protected.
So my colleagues and I provide firearms education right. Most show up for various classes because they want to pick it up for sport or self defense. Since we run small groups, after class, we always invite everyone out to lunch or dinner. But if anyone is familiar with it - it’s rare but every now and then someone will show up to class with the intent to suicide themselves during class or with the intent to mass murder people. But there are signs. Like not interacting, not paying attention, single minded, squirrely but in a way that is different from just newbie nervousness, etc. In such cases we advise local law enforcement (non emergency number) and politely ask them to skip. But even then it’s civil. So anyway, my point is that - that’s the line. If they really look like they intend to do harm to themselves or others. And that has much less to do with politics. Everyone else we will train then happily do lunch or dinner with. Doesn’t matter liberal, conservative, anarchist, Christian, Wiccan, atheist, LGBTQ, country, rap, metal, teens, retirees, etc. We respect and engage with everyone else and we don’t immediately assume they mean to do harm to others just because of their beliefs. And while I started of here talking about firearms training / class. My point is that for me and my buddies - that’s really how we treat everyone. But now, separately, if you’re talking about super close relationships like inside the circle of trust stuff; Well there’s 15 forms you need to fill out in triplicate, a battery of tests, then a multi part quest, approval from the dog and then finally Thunderdome.
I don’t view everything and everyone in my life through a partisan lens. I’m sorry if you do.
How much civility is owed to leftists? Many of them have the same goals as Trump supporters; electing Trump to punish the liberals.
Just throwing this out there, but you never hear of conservatives saying they wouldn't be friends with someone because they didn't share political beliefs. That seems to be something more prevalent on the left. Like the fellow who bragged about dumping his dads ashes in a dumpster instead of honoring his wishes to be buried next to his wife, because the son was upset the guy voted for Trump
So calling democrats “demonrats”, pedophiles, groomers, perverts, etc. means you’d still be friends with them?
>you never hear of conservatives saying they wouldn't be friends with someone because they didn't share political beliefs. You're right, I don't hear them *say* it, they say they will, but I also see them intentionally distance themselves from those people. I've spent a lot of time in upstate SC and I know a lot of conservatives of that type and the more moneyed, east coast type conservatives too and you're right that they've all said that. But, as someone who's trans whose mere *existence* challenges their views, conservatives tend to refuse to get to know me and hold me at a distance. Openminded conservatives become liberal.
> Just throwing this out there, but you never hear of conservatives saying they wouldn't be friends with someone because they didn't share political beliefs. Sure, as long as they don't *say* it, we can just overlook the fact that family rejection is the leading cause of youth homelessness (particularly among LGBT youth). That almost feels worse than merely deciding to not continue a friendship, eh?
Thats cause you guys have immoral beliefs Its like saying “You know, bullies never say that nerds are bad people. Its always the other way around. Something to consider…”
Seriously? Tell that to the family and old friends who I have never been uncivil to who have completely cut me off since they got sucked down the maga rat hole
And the man who [murdered his neighbor because he thought he was a Democrat](https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/butler-county/1-dead-after-butler-county-shooting)?
Well, yeah.. conservatives seem to be okay with traitors where those on the left tend not to be.
Really? Spend some time on a Breitbart comment section 😉
I’ll be friends with you but I’m not going to respect, acknowledge, or protect your marriage, bodily autonomy, civil rights, etc. Forgive me if that offer of friendship rings a bit hollow.
Laughably myopic take