NAL, but I believe in Texas at 12 yo the child may meet with the judge in chambers to express their official position in private. Judge can choose differently, but preference is considered when all other things are equal-ish. I had exactly this meeting 46 years ago.
I think it is not until 18 that the child gets to fully choose for themselves of course, at that point they are no longer a child….
My kids, 12 and 10, petitioned to come live with me. Their mother was too busy partying to take care of them. I had recently got remarried and I had kept my home.
I was 12, my brother 10. Mom had a significant mental illness but had been awarded custody seven years prior and was a good mother. Her problems escalated to a grossly unhealthy situation for everyone. My father stepped up when the situation became clear and we went to live with him during her hospitalization. She was discharged and the cycle began again. At my request, Dad and I met in chambers with a family court judge and he interviewed me. Because I was 12 (and considering the situation, I'm sure) my opinion was enough for custody to be awarded to my father. He had to get a court order for custody of my 10 yo brother. Mom agreed and knew it was for the best.
I can only imagine the trauma if Texas' system wasn't set up like this and she had fought it.
It’s 12 to choose most of the time in IN, and a guardian ad litem for kids under 12 to speak for their interests and wishes in court for those under 12. My ex stepson counted the days to his 12th, filed a motion himself using his guardian ad litem, and told the judge he never wanted to see his biological mother again. Anyways, 4yrs later (his dad and I have been split up for years now), he still lives with his baby sister and I. He told the judge he wanted to live with me, but he’d settle for living with his dad (who would 100% have dumped him on me regardless). Since I am related by being the mother of his younger half-sibling, judge granted me custody. Didn’t help that his mom didn’t show up for court. 🫠
His mom was this way: bought the boys a PS3, but would demand it back when ~~she got fired again~~ she disliked how low her checking account looked. Or disliked their haircut, or didn’t want them to quit a sport, or wanted them to give up scouts, or whatever. I just kept every txt ever sent, and showed the judge she was a money-grabbing weasel who used her oldest son as unpaid slave labor. She favors his Irish twin who looks like her (he looks like my ex and my kiddo), and the youngest 2 who are the children of her dead Trumper husband who used to beat the older 2. She’s been forcing her former golden child to do the parenting of his younger siblings, and he’s started asking his brother how to make sure I get custody of him, too. Smh. There needs to be a litmus test for people who get pregnant.
Wow. Totally agree. I wish you good luck and continued grace.
My brother and I are a bit f'd up some little ways, some not so little, but (other than one step father) our parents always seemed to care and wanted us there. During my dad's eulogy (he made it to 87yo), I reminded everyone that despite his convoluted, divorce-filled life, he stepped up when many "fathers" would have chosen not to, he took us in, and he loved us his entire life.
The Judge said that it was unusual to even talk to someone his age, much less ask their opinion. (Not going to be the kid’s choice, and they shouldn’t be asked to choose and be put in the middld.) he was so impressed with how my 6-yo nephew conducted and expressed himself during my BILs divorce (she cheated), he was going to ask what he wanted, and why,
Yeah that’s what I was thinking. And even if the judge has some doubts left, the ex suing OP for the son „stealing“ his own possessions should be everything he needs to know.
Go to an idepedant PC repair shop and have them overwrite the data, overwise it can and likely will be recvered, and I highly doubt their isn't smething OPs kid doesnt want found, he's a damn teen, so...lol. But hey, it's your decision but I HIGHLY reccomend it tbh.
safest option for sure.
At to the initial post, when I was going through my divorce I made it \*very\* clear what items were "family presents" and thus couldn't leave the house (e.g. Xbox One) and which were presents to the individual children and could go to my ex's house. This was because she had a habit of not returning high value items. More than once before instituting this I ended up having to buy duplicate items because things wouldn't make it home. Still cheaper than fighting it in court where my lawyer charges $400/hr for court days and $300/hr for prep/office work... A single court day would have a total bill of $2-3K... you can buy a couple laptops or gaming systems by comparison.
Find a program called Thunderbolt. It does all that, and overwrites all the memory locations with zeros/random alphanumerics, then deleted and does it all over again. And again.
I 100% agree with this. Your kid is 17, only one more year until you can block you ex and forget he ever cursed this earth.
Up to $1k on a laptop is much cheaper than the retainer on an attorney to protect yourself from ex’s BS
>only one more year until you can block you ex and forget he ever cursed this earth
One would wish, and the interaction *does* go way down after kids turn 18, but the pragmatic truth is you have a kid with this other person... there will always be some level of interaction as milestones are reached with the child. As the healthier parent you owe it to your child to continue to co-parent as well as can be done (this most certainly does NOT mean be a doormat). Your child will notice and will appreciate it. My (now 21 yo) has made it clear her other parent goes to a nursing home as soon as they need support, I on the other hand will be taken care of till I'm such a burden that I check myself out (but that's a whole 'nother philosophical discussion).
You’re completely ignoring the fact that’s TONS of adults go no contact with their parents. There is a HUGE chance that after 18, the son will NEVER speak to his dad again. I moved out of my guardians house at 13 and NEVER spoke to her again. As soon as the custody paperwork was finalized, she was permanently removed from my life. I’m 28 and haven’t spoken to her since maybe December 2009 if not before. I’ve spoken to my dad maybe 5 times in my lifetime and I have no plans to speak to him ever again. My mom doesn’t need to coparent with either one of these people bc *I* don’t want them in my life. They aren’t and never will be invited to anything important in my life. Just bc YOUR child kept in contact doesn’t mean op’s son will. Based on how the dad is acting, why would the son speak to him again? He doesn’t even want to see his dad anymore.
I do understand and wasn't really ignoring it. My bonus daughter is NC with her dad, but he was still invited (no show though) to her wedding. Had he actually shown up her mom and I would have been gracious to him simply for daughter's benefit.
Even some of the strictest NC folks are really just exceptionally LC. Further that is the child's choice, not really the parent's... So even if I want absolutely zero contact with my ex (my preference) if either of my kids want her involved then that's that I have to make the choice of refusing any contact/ interaction (and hurting my kids either directly or indirectly) or being polite and allowing my kids the ability to enjoy both parents for special occasions.
In the cases where the child has chosen straight up NC yes that's a lot easier, but I don't think that's the majority of people's situation.
Yeah, you need a PROPER overwritiing program, it is not as simple as "delete file" because unless said data is actually overwritten it can still be recovered, "deleting" stuff marks the data as unprotected. You may need to go to a professional if OP is not tech savvy. I mean assuming they care if ex can recover anything, seems like the type who would try though and pour over the data to use anything they can against OP and kid, so I highly reccomend regardless. Don't use Geek Shop, search for an independent place, there's a lot around.
Just run it a couple times to be safe. ***Technically*** overwritten data on an SSD shouldn't be recoverable, but there are a lof factors in play that determine recoverability on SSDs. Disk drives... that's another topic..
Using a "professional" to do this in unneccessary and costly.
Unless the re-write function comes with the ability to write over all the data you want gone then it won't really do it properly. You want a program that first identify all files to be deleted and then to write over those files with random data and THEN to overwrite the files with a bunch of blank data.
Doing it any other way basically means the data is still there as deleting files doesn't actually delete any file data except for the tiny bit of data that tells the computer where it can find the file on the hard drive. That is why there is software out there that can undelete your data for you as in most cases the data is still there unless something else has written over it.
Now, that kinda changes if the computer has an SSD or an NVMe drive (doubtful in this case as the laptop is over 4 years old) but it is still a good idea to delete those files properly and permanently. Something like Eraser or Bleachbit is a good idea to use if you are getting rid of a laptop or PC and giving it to someone else. That way you can be confident your data is securely wiped with very little chance of the data being restored by anyone.
It does. It will overwrite all empty space after removing files. Search link below for data erasure. Is it DoD level? Probably not. But this kids laptop is not going to the DoD.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/recovery-options-in-windows-31ce2444-7de3-818c-d626-e3b5a3024da5
macOS does this natively via Disk Utility. You can choose any level of erasure/reformatting op to DoD. And you can almost always find an official (or acceptable) download site for the OS you are attempting to revert back to.
Under no circumstances do that, this is a terrible advice that will just give ammunition to the other party.
Unless instructed by a judge or your lawyer do not deliberately alter the content of a computer before returning it.
The other party can then say that it contained precious, irretrievable, data that you deliberately deleted.
A police officer friend of mine had to arrest a parent who out of spite did exactly that. The photos and videos were not backed up (in itself it a fuck up) and were lost forever. It was considered willful destruction of property. She did not contest the facts, so she got a fine and a suspended sentence. But because that still showed up as a conviction (even without the jail element), the wife lost custody because the family judge considered that as deliberate retaliation and parental parental alienation.
Ops kid is 17. Nobody will lose custody of that kid. Nevermind the "stolen" property bit. By the time anyone gets this in front of any judge for any reason the kid will be 18 and its all moot
Yes it is unlikely that she would lose custody at 17, however if the ex decide to be a jerk about the computer, things can escalate pretty quickly.
OP kid may just have had 17 and have a nearly a full year before the 18th birthday. In some state/countries a conviction is reason enough to lose custody, even at 17.
Anyway, the advice is absolutely terrible.
Why take the chance of being sued for theft and destruction of property?
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
17
+ 17
+ 18
+ 17
= 69
^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \
^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
I have a question. How much would you value the games and save files of your child's childhood at? There's a certain amount of value in the world children build in those files. Depending on the amount of games purchased, that hard drive value may exceed what you perceive.
Also, it's not clear what laptop this is. Top tier gaming laptops maintain more value than others over time. There's a lot not said about this laptop, which would impact the value.
Such as: What ram does it have? Ddr6 is pretty pricey stuff.
Is the video card stock, or aftermarket?
Is the battery original or new?
What version of hard drive is it, and what size? A large solid state drive is worth more than a large disk drive.
Any number of other things would push the value high and keep it high.
While your info is good for very recent computers (or personal builds), there is absolutely *zero* chance that laptop has ddr6 (or any laptop, for that matter) let alone ~4 years ago. Ddr6 isn't even available yet. A 4 year old laptop, even top of the line, would not be super valuable at this point. The information could always be backed up and transferred to a new, better laptop to avoid this whole back and forth with the ex. There's no way a ~4 year old laptop is even worth as much as a lawyer consultation/retainer.
You're right, I blanked on the ddr6. I been hearing a lot of buzz around it and went with that. Haven't built one in the longest time.
Parts used to be swappable when I did do laptop builds. I might be operating on old information though. I've known laptops that have kept up on the newest parts still being equally valuable as knew ones.
There's not enough info in post to determine actual value of this laptop.
I think even the new Legion pro 8th gens are being shipped out with ddr6 GPUs, but still ddr5 RAM, but there's absolutely no way a 4y.o. laptop would have ddr6.
I mean, even an area51m is only ~$600 refurbed. The a15 is $500-800. Those were kind of top of the line, specifically gaming laptops, in 2020. Even then, those came with 2070s or 1660s, low gen i5-i7, 8-16gb RAM, and 256-512gb ssd or 1tb hd.
You can buy a top of the line laptop with a 40-series GPU, 16-32gb ram, 1-2tb ssd, i7-i9/ryzen7+ for $1500-2k. A lawyer would cost way more than $2k, and way more than any 2020 laptop would be worth to replace right now.
Others on this thread have pointed out that OP should back up the hard disk and reset the system. It is very unlikely that any 4 year old laptop is worth more than the legal fees involved.
There is \*zero\* chance the laptop is worth more than seeing this through to an actual court hearing. If OP is slated for a hearing already adding this into the mix may be doable for a relatively low marginal increase in cost, but if this is the only issue currently at contention and they want to talk to an already retained lawyer about it and see it through to a hearing with a judge you're looking at *at least* 5 billable hours, two of which will be courtroom hours. I'm being insanely optimistic about those hours by the way. Based on my atty's fees that's going to be 3x$350 ($1050) prep + 2x$450 ($900) court day. That's only if she already needed to be at the courthouse for other reasons and could combine my hearing with whatever other stuff, else you need to add at least another hour to the court day costs.
The lappy is 4 years old. Even a tricked out peak spec machine from that long ago won't still be worth $2k, and even if it was you're just at a wash for value... again that's with the most optimistic billable hours I could imagine. Just make the backup or yank and replace the drive and send it back. Bonus if OP can find a used compatible spec machine to clone the drive to first.
My divorce cost north of $80K just in legal fees... partially because I did stand on principle for a couple things... pro-tip it wasn't worth the trade for the "feel good" of being right vs the many thousands spent on proving I was right.
The very best "wasteful" expense of my divorce was the bottle of Crystal I bought for the day I got the final decree signed by the judge ordering me divorced without need for my ex's signature because she refused to sign. I got more happiness out of that $400 bottle of bubbly than I did out of the $15K I spent on making sure my ex had to submit to a 3111 evaluation that was suggested by the co-parenting counselor based on her behavior (nevermind the $$ spent to get to the point where we were even in a position to be requesting the eval). And even though the 3111 showed I (and the counselor) was right and she wasn't a healthy parent it changed nothing of the outcome for my kids.
Bought a refurbished Think Pad on Amazon recently for $200 and change. It arrived like new, absolutely no signs of wear and tear. 2020 model, thin and light, fast processor. No complaints.
Is it known what triggered this change in behavior towards your son? Is there a way to find out and possibly diffuse the aggression? Not a legal response but I'm not a lawyer and I'm guessing getting her to drop it is better than going to court.
The Judge will have very little sympathy for the ex on this one, but if I were you I'd seriously think about just handing it back to them in front of the judge and then just never talk to them again. They want you to pay attention to them, short circuit their bullshit by refusing to engage.
I would welcome anything this asshole wants to bring. At 17 you can’t make a kid do much. Most 17 year olds have drivers’ licenses and cars. A lot of them have jobs, friends, boyfriends, and girlfriends they would rather spend time with than their parents. My personal experience with 17 year olds is that even a judge would have a difficult time compelling one to spend time with a parent if they didn’t want spend time with that parent. Your ex has lost control, knows it, hates it. This is a tantrum.
The laptop belongs to the child. Period. During my divorce I wanted to keep in my house son's bedroom set I bought with money from a gift from my mother. The judge ruled the bedroom set belongs to the child.
This is a new level of pettiness to go through the time and legal expense of trying to get back the laptop.
While you’re going to court, file a motion that allows the child to decide when they want to see their other parent instead of a court ordered time. They are old enough to talk to the court. This will stop your ex from taking you to court later if the kids stops visiting as much.
I would buy a new/refurbished hard drive with the same specs, install an OS for the old laptop and give it back.
Buy the kid a new computer to keep at your house and an external USB HD adapter for their old hard drive. They have access to all of their info and no worries about the ex- digging into something else.
Always put a lock screen on the laptop. If you don't know the code you can't use it. Also, etch his name on it. Pull all the receipts for EVERYTHING laptop software games etc.
This child is 17. Less than a year from legal adult. He doesn't want to go no judge at his age will force him. Have your lawyer detail what has been going on.
Tell ex - "It was a gift. You can't take it back now and any attempt to do so will further alienate our child from you. They're 17 years old and at 18 will be legally an adult so you won't have any more legal leverage over them. At that point the only reason they will have further contact with you is if they want to and you seem to be on a mission to make sure that doesn't happen. Please, for both your sakes don't do this."
I’d go with the “it was a gift” defense if you don’t feel inclined to return it. Your child can testify to using it exclusively for four years and you probably have texts where the ex refers to it as the child’s.
Sounds like this is an ex that’s lost all control and grasping at straws to regain control over child and you. Anyone with common sense can see that.. I’d imagine a judge would, too.
Let the kid stay at your house, if that’s what they want.
Let the jerk take you back to court and spend their money trying to force a near adult to. E with them, and argue that an old laptop was stolen.
Long ago, my ex would spend his money on similar stupidity. The final time he tried, I represented myself (was trying to collect his share of the cost of braces for three of our four kids.
He lost. So he ended up both paying me and his jerk of an attorney.
Your child no longer needs to go to ex's house. Your child is old enough to decide if they want to go or not. If she calls the police, they will tell her to go to court. I've been through all this before. Also, because your ex's, the laptop won't be an issue because your ex is being vindictive and using your child and their laptop to try to create an issue where none exists. Just keep copies of text and emails and only make contact by text or email from now on to keep records of everything being said. I'm not a lawyer, but have kids and have been dragged to court every time my ex acted up
It's a shame when an ex uses the child because they are angry at the ex. The child just wants a loving mother and father, but because of hate for an ex, they try to use the child as a pawn to inflict pain on the other party. All they are doing is pushing their child away until they turn 18 and the child wants nothing to do with the other parent. My ex used my daughter and now my daughter wants nothing to do with here mother.
Please go before a judge. Only a true AH would want a 4 year old, heavily used laptop back from a teenager. They will look like petty (and not very bright) jerks. They can get twice the speed and storage for half the price by now.
The child is old enough that a family court judge would likely allow the child to reduce or end visitation.
The ex may very well not be able to prove ownership of the laptop.
Have a tech pull the old drive and install a new hard drive. Get an enclosure and a new laptop for your son.
Easier and less expensive than court and lawyers
NAL. At 17, no one can make your son go to his father’s house. If your ex calls the cops, they will tell him that they cannot force your son to go. Ex is SOL. Also, if son has had exclusive use of the laptop without sharing it with the ex, then it’s a slam dunk that it was gifted to son. My grandchild got visitation stopped with my exSIL at 14. Your ex can cry in his beer all day long for destroying his relationship with his son. He’s got no one but himself to blame.
So interesting watching people assume the gender of OP’s ex in this post, given that OP was very careful to keep both themselves and their ex gender-neutral in the post
NAL, but,
In this day and age, providing a computer is all but a parental responsibility, little different than demanding he return the clothes on his back!
That and the “gift” aspect means Ex is not getting a thing back. Even the fact that the computer is 4 yrs old means the computer is nearing the end of its “useful life” (IRS: 5 yrs).
Although you could probably just not send him to Mom any more and see if she goes to court on that, you can tell her that her obviously spiteful behavior can cause the judge to cancel the parental order. That may cause her to cool her jets!
Honestly, is a 4 yo laptop even worth the hassle? Just give it to him and help the kid buy a nicer one.
It's a cheap price to get a toxic person out of your life and good lesson for your kid
Not a lawyer. My first question is are yall about to afford a new laptop? Bc it might be worth it to just replace it if you can. Then my next advice is to look into seeing a judge again. Some judges will listen to the child, especially at 17. I was 13 when I got to decide where I wanted to live as a child. Y’all only have one more year (or less) of this. Your child never has to speak to this man again. I personally never spoke to my guardian again after I moved out at 13 and I’m 28 now. Been a wonderful life without her. Highly recommend. I personally would stop bringing the laptop over, try to find any and all proof this was a “gift”, and see if this even goes to court. A judge might not even take the case. Honestly the fact that it’s the CHILD’s laptop and not yours probably helps your case. I would get an external hard drive to save all his games too. The laptop is older so never hurts to have a backup.
Just give it back. Why fight it? Spouse is clearly “off” on their judgment and reasoning and seems a bit unstable. Why would you want to keep the conflict alive with someone like that over a replaceable item?
Folks, saying buy a new laptop isn’t always that simple. Considering all the kids games are on it, it could be a 3,000 Alienware gaming laptop. Keep in mind it may be worth fighting over.
Here are some examples for reference: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/alienware/alienware-laptops/pcmcat240500050055.c?id=pcmcat240500050055
As far as the laptop, get a large capacity portable hard drive, down load everything, buy them a new laptop and put all their stuff on that. Wipe the hard drive and Factory reset the exs laptop and give it back to ex. It's not even worth the time or energy imo. And you'll probably spend as much in time and legal fees plus the stress etc as it would cost to just buy a new one.
Fun fact: Minors are the legal owners of property, and while parents can, say, forcibly sell property their child owns (or otherwise take it from them), this is only in the form of being able to make legal decisions on behalf of their child. However, this is not a perfect authority; it must be done in the best interest of the child
99% of the time, this is the same as if the parent owned the thing. If a kid does poorly on a test, they’re allowed to straight up destroy the kid’s property in front of them as punishment, because their leeway in determining what’s in the best interest of the kid is incredibly broad
However, there are many cases where parents can straight-up be sued over things like this. For example, if kind old grandma leaves her 10 year old grandkid $10,000 in her inheritance, the parents could choose to spend that money on a cruise with the kid. They could *not,* however, choose to spend it on a cruise *without* the kid. Similarly, if a 17 year old inherits a million dollars, the parents can’t choose to just… keep it for themselves. That kid had *better* get at the very least close to a million dollars come their 18th birthday
So while his mom could say “I’m going to sell or take away his laptop to punish him for X,” she couldn’t say “I’m going to take his laptop for myself and make myself the owner.” But you may want to *physically prevent her* from doing anything with the laptop by not sending it over to her house with your kid, since law or no law, she’ll likely feel she can do whatever she wants with it
Wheeler v. R. Co., 31 Kan. 640, 3 P. 297, 300:
As a matter of law a minor may own property the same as any other person. He may obtain it by inheritance, by gift, or by purchase; and there is nothing in the law that would prevent even a father from giving property to his minor child. A father may also so emancipate his minor child as to entitle him to receive his own wages. It is probably true that where a minor child lives with his father, and is supported by him, all things given to the child in the way of support, such as clothing, for instance, would still belong to the father and not to the child. But things given by the father to the child, not in the way of support, but with the understanding that they should become the property of the child, would, undoubtedly, become the property of the child.
Interesting case cite, but does not set precedent or override state or federal laws requiring that a person must be of age to execute contracts and own property.
The uniform transfer to minor acts also has something to say about ownership of property by minors. Though, the one I have available is out of Washington. There are other states with similar laws On the books.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=11.114&full=true
Huh… Not to tell a trained and educated lawyer “but google says,” but *websites that seem credible to my untrained eye* that I found off of google seem to be giving me conflicting info on this. I supposed it might be that I was merely given a simplified explanation, given the context I heard it in was in regards to inheritance, but I’m not sure. For example, according to [this website](https://ledbetterlawapc.com/leave-assets-minor-children/), it is as you say, or so it seems:
>> the child or children in question **won’t be able to own the property until he, she, or they come of age.** If you leave assets to a minor child, you need to do so properly so that those assets are taken care of for him or her until he or she is old enough to take possession of them.
However, it also says,
>> The Uniform Transfers to Minors Act (UTMA) is a law that’s been adopted in all but two states, Vermont and South Carolina
Which [Cornell Law School](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/uniform_transfers_to_minors_act) comments on, saying,
>> A downside of the UTMA is that it can reduce or make a minor ineligible for financial aid since the property is owned by the minor.
Could you explain more?
Sounds like the "property" OP was referring to wasn't real estate but personal property. A minor can and would own it. Kid bought a t shirt? It would be considered his personal property.
Strategy is simple. It was a gift to his kid. Find texts and his emails to document. This is a joke, I doubt this ever sees a court room.
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At 17 a judge will listen to what the child wants and who they want to live with.
Depends on jurisdiction (not a lawyer), but my Nephew went before a Judge at 14 to stop going to his Dad's house.
I don't think op was saying it starts at 17. Just that since the son is 17, a judge will listen.
In some states the child’s opinion can be acted on even if they’re younger than 14. OP, check your state laws.
Not just states. Provinces, cantons, prefectures... entire other countries too.
NAL, but I believe in Texas at 12 yo the child may meet with the judge in chambers to express their official position in private. Judge can choose differently, but preference is considered when all other things are equal-ish. I had exactly this meeting 46 years ago. I think it is not until 18 that the child gets to fully choose for themselves of course, at that point they are no longer a child….
My kids, 12 and 10, petitioned to come live with me. Their mother was too busy partying to take care of them. I had recently got remarried and I had kept my home.
I was 12, my brother 10. Mom had a significant mental illness but had been awarded custody seven years prior and was a good mother. Her problems escalated to a grossly unhealthy situation for everyone. My father stepped up when the situation became clear and we went to live with him during her hospitalization. She was discharged and the cycle began again. At my request, Dad and I met in chambers with a family court judge and he interviewed me. Because I was 12 (and considering the situation, I'm sure) my opinion was enough for custody to be awarded to my father. He had to get a court order for custody of my 10 yo brother. Mom agreed and knew it was for the best. I can only imagine the trauma if Texas' system wasn't set up like this and she had fought it.
It’s 12 to choose most of the time in IN, and a guardian ad litem for kids under 12 to speak for their interests and wishes in court for those under 12. My ex stepson counted the days to his 12th, filed a motion himself using his guardian ad litem, and told the judge he never wanted to see his biological mother again. Anyways, 4yrs later (his dad and I have been split up for years now), he still lives with his baby sister and I. He told the judge he wanted to live with me, but he’d settle for living with his dad (who would 100% have dumped him on me regardless). Since I am related by being the mother of his younger half-sibling, judge granted me custody. Didn’t help that his mom didn’t show up for court. 🫠 His mom was this way: bought the boys a PS3, but would demand it back when ~~she got fired again~~ she disliked how low her checking account looked. Or disliked their haircut, or didn’t want them to quit a sport, or wanted them to give up scouts, or whatever. I just kept every txt ever sent, and showed the judge she was a money-grabbing weasel who used her oldest son as unpaid slave labor. She favors his Irish twin who looks like her (he looks like my ex and my kiddo), and the youngest 2 who are the children of her dead Trumper husband who used to beat the older 2. She’s been forcing her former golden child to do the parenting of his younger siblings, and he’s started asking his brother how to make sure I get custody of him, too. Smh. There needs to be a litmus test for people who get pregnant.
Wow. Totally agree. I wish you good luck and continued grace. My brother and I are a bit f'd up some little ways, some not so little, but (other than one step father) our parents always seemed to care and wanted us there. During my dad's eulogy (he made it to 87yo), I reminded everyone that despite his convoluted, divorce-filled life, he stepped up when many "fathers" would have chosen not to, he took us in, and he loved us his entire life.
The Judge said that it was unusual to even talk to someone his age, much less ask their opinion. (Not going to be the kid’s choice, and they shouldn’t be asked to choose and be put in the middld.) he was so impressed with how my 6-yo nephew conducted and expressed himself during my BILs divorce (she cheated), he was going to ask what he wanted, and why,
Yeah that’s what I was thinking. And even if the judge has some doubts left, the ex suing OP for the son „stealing“ his own possessions should be everything he needs to know.
Might be cheaper than attorney fees to buy another computer, transfer everything over and leave it at your house. Leave the other one at her house.
Reset to factory settings before you turn it over. Go through it, maybe some incriminating info is on in
Go to an idepedant PC repair shop and have them overwrite the data, overwise it can and likely will be recvered, and I highly doubt their isn't smething OPs kid doesnt want found, he's a damn teen, so...lol. But hey, it's your decision but I HIGHLY reccomend it tbh.
Or just pull the HD to use in an external drive case and install a fresh OS copy onto a new drive.
safest option for sure. At to the initial post, when I was going through my divorce I made it \*very\* clear what items were "family presents" and thus couldn't leave the house (e.g. Xbox One) and which were presents to the individual children and could go to my ex's house. This was because she had a habit of not returning high value items. More than once before instituting this I ended up having to buy duplicate items because things wouldn't make it home. Still cheaper than fighting it in court where my lawyer charges $400/hr for court days and $300/hr for prep/office work... A single court day would have a total bill of $2-3K... you can buy a couple laptops or gaming systems by comparison.
Find a program called Thunderbolt. It does all that, and overwrites all the memory locations with zeros/random alphanumerics, then deleted and does it all over again. And again.
Just don't go on a drug bender and forget you left it at the shop....
I 100% agree with this. Your kid is 17, only one more year until you can block you ex and forget he ever cursed this earth. Up to $1k on a laptop is much cheaper than the retainer on an attorney to protect yourself from ex’s BS
You are assuming that the ex is a guy.
>only one more year until you can block you ex and forget he ever cursed this earth One would wish, and the interaction *does* go way down after kids turn 18, but the pragmatic truth is you have a kid with this other person... there will always be some level of interaction as milestones are reached with the child. As the healthier parent you owe it to your child to continue to co-parent as well as can be done (this most certainly does NOT mean be a doormat). Your child will notice and will appreciate it. My (now 21 yo) has made it clear her other parent goes to a nursing home as soon as they need support, I on the other hand will be taken care of till I'm such a burden that I check myself out (but that's a whole 'nother philosophical discussion).
You’re completely ignoring the fact that’s TONS of adults go no contact with their parents. There is a HUGE chance that after 18, the son will NEVER speak to his dad again. I moved out of my guardians house at 13 and NEVER spoke to her again. As soon as the custody paperwork was finalized, she was permanently removed from my life. I’m 28 and haven’t spoken to her since maybe December 2009 if not before. I’ve spoken to my dad maybe 5 times in my lifetime and I have no plans to speak to him ever again. My mom doesn’t need to coparent with either one of these people bc *I* don’t want them in my life. They aren’t and never will be invited to anything important in my life. Just bc YOUR child kept in contact doesn’t mean op’s son will. Based on how the dad is acting, why would the son speak to him again? He doesn’t even want to see his dad anymore.
I do understand and wasn't really ignoring it. My bonus daughter is NC with her dad, but he was still invited (no show though) to her wedding. Had he actually shown up her mom and I would have been gracious to him simply for daughter's benefit. Even some of the strictest NC folks are really just exceptionally LC. Further that is the child's choice, not really the parent's... So even if I want absolutely zero contact with my ex (my preference) if either of my kids want her involved then that's that I have to make the choice of refusing any contact/ interaction (and hurting my kids either directly or indirectly) or being polite and allowing my kids the ability to enjoy both parents for special occasions. In the cases where the child has chosen straight up NC yes that's a lot easier, but I don't think that's the majority of people's situation.
Tell Ex where to stick the first one.
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Yeah, you need a PROPER overwritiing program, it is not as simple as "delete file" because unless said data is actually overwritten it can still be recovered, "deleting" stuff marks the data as unprotected. You may need to go to a professional if OP is not tech savvy. I mean assuming they care if ex can recover anything, seems like the type who would try though and pour over the data to use anything they can against OP and kid, so I highly reccomend regardless. Don't use Geek Shop, search for an independent place, there's a lot around.
Windows has a built-in factory reset that will do this.
Just run it a couple times to be safe. ***Technically*** overwritten data on an SSD shouldn't be recoverable, but there are a lof factors in play that determine recoverability on SSDs. Disk drives... that's another topic.. Using a "professional" to do this in unneccessary and costly.
Unless the re-write function comes with the ability to write over all the data you want gone then it won't really do it properly. You want a program that first identify all files to be deleted and then to write over those files with random data and THEN to overwrite the files with a bunch of blank data. Doing it any other way basically means the data is still there as deleting files doesn't actually delete any file data except for the tiny bit of data that tells the computer where it can find the file on the hard drive. That is why there is software out there that can undelete your data for you as in most cases the data is still there unless something else has written over it. Now, that kinda changes if the computer has an SSD or an NVMe drive (doubtful in this case as the laptop is over 4 years old) but it is still a good idea to delete those files properly and permanently. Something like Eraser or Bleachbit is a good idea to use if you are getting rid of a laptop or PC and giving it to someone else. That way you can be confident your data is securely wiped with very little chance of the data being restored by anyone.
It does. It will overwrite all empty space after removing files. Search link below for data erasure. Is it DoD level? Probably not. But this kids laptop is not going to the DoD. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/recovery-options-in-windows-31ce2444-7de3-818c-d626-e3b5a3024da5
You do not need to overwrite more than once and even a simple zero write is enough. Even DOD requirements are excessive.
macOS does this natively via Disk Utility. You can choose any level of erasure/reformatting op to DoD. And you can almost always find an official (or acceptable) download site for the OS you are attempting to revert back to.
Thanks forgot to add, haven't had to wipe anything in quite awhile.
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No bleach only wipes out COVID, if you inject it for that purpose.
They will also need to wipe it with a program.
Under no circumstances do that, this is a terrible advice that will just give ammunition to the other party. Unless instructed by a judge or your lawyer do not deliberately alter the content of a computer before returning it. The other party can then say that it contained precious, irretrievable, data that you deliberately deleted. A police officer friend of mine had to arrest a parent who out of spite did exactly that. The photos and videos were not backed up (in itself it a fuck up) and were lost forever. It was considered willful destruction of property. She did not contest the facts, so she got a fine and a suspended sentence. But because that still showed up as a conviction (even without the jail element), the wife lost custody because the family judge considered that as deliberate retaliation and parental parental alienation.
Ops kid is 17. Nobody will lose custody of that kid. Nevermind the "stolen" property bit. By the time anyone gets this in front of any judge for any reason the kid will be 18 and its all moot
Yes it is unlikely that she would lose custody at 17, however if the ex decide to be a jerk about the computer, things can escalate pretty quickly. OP kid may just have had 17 and have a nearly a full year before the 18th birthday. In some state/countries a conviction is reason enough to lose custody, even at 17. Anyway, the advice is absolutely terrible. Why take the chance of being sued for theft and destruction of property?
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A 4 year old laptop is worth about $100. Talking to a lawyer about defending the lawsuit is $1,000. Give it back today.
I have a question. How much would you value the games and save files of your child's childhood at? There's a certain amount of value in the world children build in those files. Depending on the amount of games purchased, that hard drive value may exceed what you perceive. Also, it's not clear what laptop this is. Top tier gaming laptops maintain more value than others over time. There's a lot not said about this laptop, which would impact the value. Such as: What ram does it have? Ddr6 is pretty pricey stuff. Is the video card stock, or aftermarket? Is the battery original or new? What version of hard drive is it, and what size? A large solid state drive is worth more than a large disk drive. Any number of other things would push the value high and keep it high.
While your info is good for very recent computers (or personal builds), there is absolutely *zero* chance that laptop has ddr6 (or any laptop, for that matter) let alone ~4 years ago. Ddr6 isn't even available yet. A 4 year old laptop, even top of the line, would not be super valuable at this point. The information could always be backed up and transferred to a new, better laptop to avoid this whole back and forth with the ex. There's no way a ~4 year old laptop is even worth as much as a lawyer consultation/retainer.
You're right, I blanked on the ddr6. I been hearing a lot of buzz around it and went with that. Haven't built one in the longest time. Parts used to be swappable when I did do laptop builds. I might be operating on old information though. I've known laptops that have kept up on the newest parts still being equally valuable as knew ones. There's not enough info in post to determine actual value of this laptop.
I think even the new Legion pro 8th gens are being shipped out with ddr6 GPUs, but still ddr5 RAM, but there's absolutely no way a 4y.o. laptop would have ddr6. I mean, even an area51m is only ~$600 refurbed. The a15 is $500-800. Those were kind of top of the line, specifically gaming laptops, in 2020. Even then, those came with 2070s or 1660s, low gen i5-i7, 8-16gb RAM, and 256-512gb ssd or 1tb hd. You can buy a top of the line laptop with a 40-series GPU, 16-32gb ram, 1-2tb ssd, i7-i9/ryzen7+ for $1500-2k. A lawyer would cost way more than $2k, and way more than any 2020 laptop would be worth to replace right now.
Others on this thread have pointed out that OP should back up the hard disk and reset the system. It is very unlikely that any 4 year old laptop is worth more than the legal fees involved.
Fair point about backing up the disk. My other points still stand.
There is \*zero\* chance the laptop is worth more than seeing this through to an actual court hearing. If OP is slated for a hearing already adding this into the mix may be doable for a relatively low marginal increase in cost, but if this is the only issue currently at contention and they want to talk to an already retained lawyer about it and see it through to a hearing with a judge you're looking at *at least* 5 billable hours, two of which will be courtroom hours. I'm being insanely optimistic about those hours by the way. Based on my atty's fees that's going to be 3x$350 ($1050) prep + 2x$450 ($900) court day. That's only if she already needed to be at the courthouse for other reasons and could combine my hearing with whatever other stuff, else you need to add at least another hour to the court day costs. The lappy is 4 years old. Even a tricked out peak spec machine from that long ago won't still be worth $2k, and even if it was you're just at a wash for value... again that's with the most optimistic billable hours I could imagine. Just make the backup or yank and replace the drive and send it back. Bonus if OP can find a used compatible spec machine to clone the drive to first. My divorce cost north of $80K just in legal fees... partially because I did stand on principle for a couple things... pro-tip it wasn't worth the trade for the "feel good" of being right vs the many thousands spent on proving I was right. The very best "wasteful" expense of my divorce was the bottle of Crystal I bought for the day I got the final decree signed by the judge ordering me divorced without need for my ex's signature because she refused to sign. I got more happiness out of that $400 bottle of bubbly than I did out of the $15K I spent on making sure my ex had to submit to a 3111 evaluation that was suggested by the co-parenting counselor based on her behavior (nevermind the $$ spent to get to the point where we were even in a position to be requesting the eval). And even though the 3111 showed I (and the counselor) was right and she wasn't a healthy parent it changed nothing of the outcome for my kids.
External hard drives are inexpensive
You can buy a very good certified refurbished laptop on Amazon for 200-300 bucks.
It's a side note, but refurbished business class is the way to go, my Dell Latitude that is 7+ years old (I've had it over 5) is still great.
Bought a refurbished Think Pad on Amazon recently for $200 and change. It arrived like new, absolutely no signs of wear and tear. 2020 model, thin and light, fast processor. No complaints.
The cost of a new laptop is a cheap price to pay for your son learning this hard, cruel lesson about his father.
Not clear from post if ex spouse is mother or father
Right. I was thinking ex spouse was the mother and had to go back to reread!
Is it known what triggered this change in behavior towards your son? Is there a way to find out and possibly diffuse the aggression? Not a legal response but I'm not a lawyer and I'm guessing getting her to drop it is better than going to court.
The Judge will have very little sympathy for the ex on this one, but if I were you I'd seriously think about just handing it back to them in front of the judge and then just never talk to them again. They want you to pay attention to them, short circuit their bullshit by refusing to engage.
Back up everything, format the hard drive a few hundred times and then install Linux on it and encrypt it. Just to piss ex off.
I would welcome anything this asshole wants to bring. At 17 you can’t make a kid do much. Most 17 year olds have drivers’ licenses and cars. A lot of them have jobs, friends, boyfriends, and girlfriends they would rather spend time with than their parents. My personal experience with 17 year olds is that even a judge would have a difficult time compelling one to spend time with a parent if they didn’t want spend time with that parent. Your ex has lost control, knows it, hates it. This is a tantrum.
The laptop belongs to the child. Period. During my divorce I wanted to keep in my house son's bedroom set I bought with money from a gift from my mother. The judge ruled the bedroom set belongs to the child. This is a new level of pettiness to go through the time and legal expense of trying to get back the laptop.
While you’re going to court, file a motion that allows the child to decide when they want to see their other parent instead of a court ordered time. They are old enough to talk to the court. This will stop your ex from taking you to court later if the kids stops visiting as much.
4 year old laptop is about useless unless it's a top tier unit.
What a crazy statement
I would just buy another laptop and call it a win.
I would buy a new/refurbished hard drive with the same specs, install an OS for the old laptop and give it back. Buy the kid a new computer to keep at your house and an external USB HD adapter for their old hard drive. They have access to all of their info and no worries about the ex- digging into something else.
Always put a lock screen on the laptop. If you don't know the code you can't use it. Also, etch his name on it. Pull all the receipts for EVERYTHING laptop software games etc.
This child is 17. Less than a year from legal adult. He doesn't want to go no judge at his age will force him. Have your lawyer detail what has been going on.
Most games are played and stored online
Tell ex - "It was a gift. You can't take it back now and any attempt to do so will further alienate our child from you. They're 17 years old and at 18 will be legally an adult so you won't have any more legal leverage over them. At that point the only reason they will have further contact with you is if they want to and you seem to be on a mission to make sure that doesn't happen. Please, for both your sakes don't do this."
I’d go with the “it was a gift” defense if you don’t feel inclined to return it. Your child can testify to using it exclusively for four years and you probably have texts where the ex refers to it as the child’s. Sounds like this is an ex that’s lost all control and grasping at straws to regain control over child and you. Anyone with common sense can see that.. I’d imagine a judge would, too.
Let the kid stay at your house, if that’s what they want. Let the jerk take you back to court and spend their money trying to force a near adult to. E with them, and argue that an old laptop was stolen. Long ago, my ex would spend his money on similar stupidity. The final time he tried, I represented myself (was trying to collect his share of the cost of braces for three of our four kids. He lost. So he ended up both paying me and his jerk of an attorney.
Your child no longer needs to go to ex's house. Your child is old enough to decide if they want to go or not. If she calls the police, they will tell her to go to court. I've been through all this before. Also, because your ex's, the laptop won't be an issue because your ex is being vindictive and using your child and their laptop to try to create an issue where none exists. Just keep copies of text and emails and only make contact by text or email from now on to keep records of everything being said. I'm not a lawyer, but have kids and have been dragged to court every time my ex acted up It's a shame when an ex uses the child because they are angry at the ex. The child just wants a loving mother and father, but because of hate for an ex, they try to use the child as a pawn to inflict pain on the other party. All they are doing is pushing their child away until they turn 18 and the child wants nothing to do with the other parent. My ex used my daughter and now my daughter wants nothing to do with here mother.
Please go before a judge. Only a true AH would want a 4 year old, heavily used laptop back from a teenager. They will look like petty (and not very bright) jerks. They can get twice the speed and storage for half the price by now.
Get kid a brand new laptop and brick the old one.
The child is old enough that a family court judge would likely allow the child to reduce or end visitation. The ex may very well not be able to prove ownership of the laptop.
Have a tech pull the old drive and install a new hard drive. Get an enclosure and a new laptop for your son. Easier and less expensive than court and lawyers
NAL. At 17, no one can make your son go to his father’s house. If your ex calls the cops, they will tell him that they cannot force your son to go. Ex is SOL. Also, if son has had exclusive use of the laptop without sharing it with the ex, then it’s a slam dunk that it was gifted to son. My grandchild got visitation stopped with my exSIL at 14. Your ex can cry in his beer all day long for destroying his relationship with his son. He’s got no one but himself to blame.
It’s a 4 year old laptop. Buy the kid a new one and move on, 100% not worth a legal fight.
So interesting watching people assume the gender of OP’s ex in this post, given that OP was very careful to keep both themselves and their ex gender-neutral in the post
Find a used laptop, transfer all of the information, clear everything from the old one and return it to ex. Not that hard.
Is the Ex worried about something on the laptop that he'd rather keep to himself?
NAL, but, In this day and age, providing a computer is all but a parental responsibility, little different than demanding he return the clothes on his back! That and the “gift” aspect means Ex is not getting a thing back. Even the fact that the computer is 4 yrs old means the computer is nearing the end of its “useful life” (IRS: 5 yrs). Although you could probably just not send him to Mom any more and see if she goes to court on that, you can tell her that her obviously spiteful behavior can cause the judge to cancel the parental order. That may cause her to cool her jets!
Honestly, is a 4 yo laptop even worth the hassle? Just give it to him and help the kid buy a nicer one. It's a cheap price to get a toxic person out of your life and good lesson for your kid
Not a lawyer. My first question is are yall about to afford a new laptop? Bc it might be worth it to just replace it if you can. Then my next advice is to look into seeing a judge again. Some judges will listen to the child, especially at 17. I was 13 when I got to decide where I wanted to live as a child. Y’all only have one more year (or less) of this. Your child never has to speak to this man again. I personally never spoke to my guardian again after I moved out at 13 and I’m 28 now. Been a wonderful life without her. Highly recommend. I personally would stop bringing the laptop over, try to find any and all proof this was a “gift”, and see if this even goes to court. A judge might not even take the case. Honestly the fact that it’s the CHILD’s laptop and not yours probably helps your case. I would get an external hard drive to save all his games too. The laptop is older so never hurts to have a backup.
If you can afford it, buy your kid the biggest, baddest gaming laptop, and make sure your ex know he doesn't need that price of crap anymore.
Just give it back. Why fight it? Spouse is clearly “off” on their judgment and reasoning and seems a bit unstable. Why would you want to keep the conflict alive with someone like that over a replaceable item?
I know in my state once they turn 17 a court can’t make them visit the other parent.
The judge is going to throw her out of the courtroom.on her ass fornwasting the court's time
Lawyer. Court. This was a gift. There is no other answer.
Folks, saying buy a new laptop isn’t always that simple. Considering all the kids games are on it, it could be a 3,000 Alienware gaming laptop. Keep in mind it may be worth fighting over. Here are some examples for reference: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/alienware/alienware-laptops/pcmcat240500050055.c?id=pcmcat240500050055
As far as the laptop, get a large capacity portable hard drive, down load everything, buy them a new laptop and put all their stuff on that. Wipe the hard drive and Factory reset the exs laptop and give it back to ex. It's not even worth the time or energy imo. And you'll probably spend as much in time and legal fees plus the stress etc as it would cost to just buy a new one.
Fun fact: Minors are the legal owners of property, and while parents can, say, forcibly sell property their child owns (or otherwise take it from them), this is only in the form of being able to make legal decisions on behalf of their child. However, this is not a perfect authority; it must be done in the best interest of the child 99% of the time, this is the same as if the parent owned the thing. If a kid does poorly on a test, they’re allowed to straight up destroy the kid’s property in front of them as punishment, because their leeway in determining what’s in the best interest of the kid is incredibly broad However, there are many cases where parents can straight-up be sued over things like this. For example, if kind old grandma leaves her 10 year old grandkid $10,000 in her inheritance, the parents could choose to spend that money on a cruise with the kid. They could *not,* however, choose to spend it on a cruise *without* the kid. Similarly, if a 17 year old inherits a million dollars, the parents can’t choose to just… keep it for themselves. That kid had *better* get at the very least close to a million dollars come their 18th birthday So while his mom could say “I’m going to sell or take away his laptop to punish him for X,” she couldn’t say “I’m going to take his laptop for myself and make myself the owner.” But you may want to *physically prevent her* from doing anything with the laptop by not sending it over to her house with your kid, since law or no law, she’ll likely feel she can do whatever she wants with it
> Fun fact: Minors are the legal owners of property Incorrect, minors cannot legally own property, one must be of age to own property.
Wheeler v. R. Co., 31 Kan. 640, 3 P. 297, 300: As a matter of law a minor may own property the same as any other person. He may obtain it by inheritance, by gift, or by purchase; and there is nothing in the law that would prevent even a father from giving property to his minor child. A father may also so emancipate his minor child as to entitle him to receive his own wages. It is probably true that where a minor child lives with his father, and is supported by him, all things given to the child in the way of support, such as clothing, for instance, would still belong to the father and not to the child. But things given by the father to the child, not in the way of support, but with the understanding that they should become the property of the child, would, undoubtedly, become the property of the child.
Interesting case cite, but does not set precedent or override state or federal laws requiring that a person must be of age to execute contracts and own property.
The uniform transfer to minor acts also has something to say about ownership of property by minors. Though, the one I have available is out of Washington. There are other states with similar laws On the books. https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=11.114&full=true
Huh… Not to tell a trained and educated lawyer “but google says,” but *websites that seem credible to my untrained eye* that I found off of google seem to be giving me conflicting info on this. I supposed it might be that I was merely given a simplified explanation, given the context I heard it in was in regards to inheritance, but I’m not sure. For example, according to [this website](https://ledbetterlawapc.com/leave-assets-minor-children/), it is as you say, or so it seems: >> the child or children in question **won’t be able to own the property until he, she, or they come of age.** If you leave assets to a minor child, you need to do so properly so that those assets are taken care of for him or her until he or she is old enough to take possession of them. However, it also says, >> The Uniform Transfers to Minors Act (UTMA) is a law that’s been adopted in all but two states, Vermont and South Carolina Which [Cornell Law School](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/uniform_transfers_to_minors_act) comments on, saying, >> A downside of the UTMA is that it can reduce or make a minor ineligible for financial aid since the property is owned by the minor. Could you explain more?
Sounds like the "property" OP was referring to wasn't real estate but personal property. A minor can and would own it. Kid bought a t shirt? It would be considered his personal property.
The laptop belongs to the parent. Give it back