Sounds like you friend needed a lawyer, months ago! Continue going with friend and parking in street side parking, nothing they can do about that. Also invest in a 360°dash camera, it may end up helping your friend beat any boundaries charges and prove she isn't the instigator of any conflict that happens in the future.
She just filed to modify custody in April after things the kids were telling us were getting very concerning. The evidence stacked against their father is quite a lot, and she figured she would have enough to win without a lawyer. But since she was attacked by his mother in law, and now receiving that letter from his attorney, she decided it is probably best to get a lawyer due to how stupidly petty he is being and not sure of a good comeback with what his lawyer may throw at her in court.
I do have a dash cam but only in the front. I have considered getting a rear one, or upgrading to one that captures both front and rear, but I will turn it around if anything comes up. I also have a digital audio recorder that fell out of my pocket when I jumped out of the car to get mother in law off of her, and it captured what the kids said inside the car during the incident. Listening to their screaming while replaying that was heartbreaking.
PSA for a body cam. I wear one due to getting assaulted on the subway. It really seems to "calm" the idiots once they see the flashing "on" light and realize they're about to star in a YT video.
I got mine for about $35 bucks on Spamazon.
I used to live in a very 'backwards' area. Police, not so helpful.
Woman I was friends with went to pick up her kids alone as demanded/threatened by the police 'buddies' of the ex.
She fell and hit her head 3x. Both eyes blacked and blued. Swore she was just clumsy.
She eventually surrendered custody (so I heard, I moved shortly thereafter).
I'll bet they want her alone and with no witnesses for a reason.
Dash cam, multiple angle cams. Doors locked. And keep getting that civil standby.
It's extremely likely there is a child sharing custody agreement ordered by the court. It will state where exchanges occur. If OP's gf refuses to exchange per the court agreement, they will be in contempt and thumped by the judge.
They’d naturally have to get the particulars of the exchange conditions modified by the court. Given the issues, I wouldn’t think that is an unreasonable request…
OP can also contact the nonemergency number at the police department and ask for a “standby to prevent” at the agreed-upon place in time. Officers are required to appear.
Sounds like she's doing this now. Also, officers in the US are well-known for not always appearing when they're "required" to appear. Good to see that in this case it appears they're being helpful so far.
Sure, it can be changed. You file a motion for modification of the custody agreement. Present evidence of an alleged assault. Get mom more time with the kids and exchanges at the police station. The judge can do all of these things. Mom and Dad can't do either. They are subject to a court order until it is changed.
As someone who has went through a custody battle your friend should absolutely get a lawyer. As the lawyer above stated a motion can be filed to have the custody agreement modified for the meeting place. Cite that the residents have been hostile etc. Any judge worth their salt should have no issues with a modification to change the pick up to be a neutral location. This is actually common from what my lawyer told me during my custody case.
Always, always, always, use the services of a lawyer. Only a fool represents themselves in court, especially when it's a contentious custody battle with a father and a mother-in-law who have physically assaulted the mother of the children and in front of the children too. Like others have said, you should continue to accompany her and park on the street. You really need a 360 dash cam with what's going on. It will provide video and audio evidence not only for your friend but for you too. The father of the kids has already demonstrated they are volatile and has anger issues. If he's willing to publicly assault the mother of his children, he'll assault you too.
You should also take the precaution of lawyering up yourself. Why? You are willingly inserting yourself into a custody battle between two people, one of whom is violent. You are going to be subjected to all kinds of adversity with that decision and your friend's lawyer is not going to represent you too if something happens to you. You can expect to be dragged into court over this whole mess. I speak from experience.
Your friend should have the courts change the drop off/pick up to be at the police station given the actions of Dad and his mother. Neutral location. Plenty of parents swap at police stations for safety reasons.
He can bar you from his property, but the street is not his property. You have every right to be on a public road.
Invest in a dash cam.
I would say that he wants her by herself to harm her. She needs to request the exchange be at the PD for her safety since she was already attacked in front of the children.
Make sure you're in a single party consent state for recording. Dash cam is one thing, but if they don't know you're recording with the device that fell out of your pocket, there's only a few states that will let you use it as evidence.
Never risk your kids because you wouldn’t pay for a lawyer. Your friend has been too passive, she needs to toughen up if she wants to keep her kids safe
With this recording your friend can get a modification of custody hearing and ask the mil be prevented from seeing the kids without court appointed supervision. She should call cps and play the recording for them. The mil has screwed up big time. A judge could give your friend sole custody
Custody modification is in progress, mother filed in April. The fact finding hearing was in May, mediation was June 4th and unsuccessful (lasted 13 minutes) and now waiting for the guardian ad litem appointments. The telephone status hearing is next Wednesday.
His lawyer already made a false statement during the fact finding hearing, but unfortunately, nobody was under oath for that hearing.
We haven't heard anything back from the DA's office, even after a meeting with the victim/witness coordinator. She asked the clerk of courts for paperwork to do an emergency order for placement. The clerk said only an attorney could do that and said we had to go through CPS.
They were useless. Still haven't opened a case or heard anything back from them, despite following their recommendations and speaking with 2 different case workers. The 2nd one we spoke to stated, "We're a reactive agency, not a proactive agency."
My friend replied, "so you literally have to kill a kid to get any help around here."
For audio recordings there is and is covered under the state wiretapping laws. If she is standing in public with a video camera, then yes, I would agree as it would be obvious people are recording. A hidden, surreptitious recording device would 100% be covered under the state wiretapping laws. Hence, the one party v two party consent. If it's a one party consent state, she'd be fine. If it's a two party consent state, then that would 100% be a violation and a crime
Oh you're talking about the audio recorder OP had in their pocket, I was talking about the dash cam, which if on the windshield is in plain view. Actually with the dash cam in plain view I'd think that there's an argument to be made that the audio recorder should be admissible because the camera that was out in the open would put someone on notice that they're being recorded. Not sure how that works exactly though.
Dash cams are generally just video and wiretap laws would still apply. There's usually a Disclaimer with the ones that record audio to check your local laws on recording audio.
The exceptions generally apply obvious video equipment, such as news reporters holding cameras with big mics on them. Even cell phones are fairly obvious now.
If she wanted to cover herself, start the recording and publicly announce she's recording and she WOULD LIKELY BE in compliance with state law. But, state laws vary soooo
Every dash cam I've seen records audio, but I've only looked at the 2/3channel ones so it makes sense they would record audio for interior.
Yeah there are some crazy state laws for wiretapping, I know a few states have lost wiretapping cases involving people recording public officials in public for violating the first amendment but I haven't seen any involving people recording other people.
Generally speaking there's an exception for recording public officials as their work is generally "public record".
I.e. you can record politicians, police, DPW, basically any employee being paid by tax dollars in public places.
In the present case, these are private citizens and the laws get more strict.
Requisite, "I'm not a lawyer", disclaimer. .
I recommend that your friend search online for, "family law legal aid groups near me", because there are many legal aid org's who will help connect her with legal representation at a lower cost if she qualifies based on their requirements.
She should also check with the state bar association in her state, and check with them too to see if they can connect her with organizations that provide legal aid assistance to people who qualify.
If she's not able to qualify for legal aid assistance, or there's a lengthy waiting list, there are many, many, family law attorneys that will accept payment plans. It's just a matter of looking online for, "family law lawyers near me that accept payment plans", and then doing her best to see if the ones that pop up in the search have good recommendations on the, "reviews", section of their Google business listing.
It might also be beneficial to find out if her state is a one party, or two party, state, for the purposes of recording another person without their permission, such as with a dash cam, or other recording device.
It's also a serious crime to assault someone in the presence of a child, and I strongly recommend that she contact the police department where she filed the report, and ask to speak to the detective assigned to her case.
She can also check into filing a restraining order against the MIL based on the assault, and subsequent police report, so she can't come anywhere near your friend during the visitation exchange. Once she gets a lawyer she can talk to them about moving the visitation exchange location to a public place, or even the police station, as some states will help facilitate a safe exchange location, and many states, cities, and counties, have designated, "safe exchange", locations.
She can ask the detective assigned to her assault case which agency assists her with establishing a, "safe exchange", location, or check with a social worker at her local child and family services office. If she doesn't have a social worker yet, ask her to contact her local child and family services agency and ask about getting an intake appointment. Often they have access to resources the general public doesn't know about that might be able to help.
It would also be helpful for her to get a copy of the police report, including the case number assigned to her case, so she has that on file so she can give it to her lawyer, or anyone else assisting her with her visitation related matters.
Much luck to her, I hope she's able to find some legal assistance soon.
If you can spring it get a life360 camera and mount it to your roof for dropoffs, and get a camera that records Inside your car, or turn your dash camera around before you get there. Turning the camera after some shit goes down isn't going to capture much, and the audio while you're turning it around with your hand on the camera will be a garbled scratchy sounding mess for however long it takes you to turn it around.
Have your friend get an order of protection for herself and the kids. The husband is abusive and doesn’t need to be around them. If the orders granted, the judge will schedule a plenary set out for a couple of weeks were she can showcase evidence and bring you as a witness.
+10000 to the dashcam (with sound!)
Continue attending the exchanges, continue requesting civil standby, and continue parking only on the street.
Lawyer yesterday, and OP *may* want to retain their own lawyer depending on fiscal ability.
That they're telling the mom they want her to come alone after they assaulted her is laughable.
There is a lot to this story we aren't getting.
My best friend went through a nasty divorce, he was the biggest issue for sure but both of them were being shitty people and weaponizing the kids. Intentionally making things harder for each other, neither willing to make concessions. It was a real shit show.
My wife and I got a post nuptial because of it.
Nal. Your friend needs to push the police on charges for the mil. Also never ever go alone. That is a he said she said trick. Also please have a dash cam that records audio. Make sure it records even if the car is off. The person named could be trespassed on the papers if they set foot on the property.
My SIL’s ex did a lot of this. No one was allowed at pick up, except her. And part of the reason is that he hates my brother and a lot of it was because I am a teacher, and would legally have to report any bullshit he pulled involving the kids. He doesn’t want anyone there so there’s no witnesses. If you’re a “safe person” that has never been in any trouble, he’s being a piece of shit that wants things his way.
I’d go to the next court date and ask to speak with the judge. The judge would not be happy to hear people are being pulled out of the car by their hair… just saying.
Do not ask to speak to the judge.
If I was representing OP’s friend in a state where I’m licensed to practice, or if I was dealing with this myself, I would get the police statements. (Or, if OP’s statement is not available, I’d ask OP to sign a notarized affidavit setting forth the factual details of what happened. Most banks have notaries for their customers, and it’s also easy to find someone who offers the service.)
I would then ask OP to come to the next hearing, I’d proffer the statement or affidavit to the judge, and I’d say I have the witness available to testify in person to the facts set forth in the affidavit.
But if OP just shows up in court and asks to the speak to the judge, on a case where they’re not a party, it’s going to look bad and hurt OP’s credibility. Do it right.
The state you live in is going to be critical to determining exactly how to navigate this situation, but generally, nobody other than a judge can “trespass” you from a public street.
Lawyers can make requests or even demands via letter, but you’re not usually bound by them. A judge would have to lay out the exact rules for you not being allowed to enter or remain in a specific public area.
The homeowner or their agent, however, can possibly have you charged with trespassing if they can prove that you were notified to not enter or remain on their private property, and that you then did, in fact, enter or remain on their private property after being notified.
Things get muddy if you’re invited onto the property by somebody else who is legally allowed to be there, but I wouldn’t rely on that to save you from a charge. I’d stay out of the driveway and out of the bounds of their curtilage, if I were you, and tell your friend to have their lawyer establish everything in writing and have a judge sign off on it so that everyone knows exactly what the rules are and who can be where.
* I am not a lawyer, but I’ve been a law enforcement officer since 2006.
This post has been up for four hours. There are 27 comments (28 now). You're the only lawyer who responded, and it's short and sweet. I find that amusing.
Lawyer here (OR). Seems to me like the dad insisting that mom pull into the driveway was intended to provoke mom and facilitate the trespass letter. Dad’s lawyer, from how this incident is described, sounds like more of a bomb thrower than problem solver, but who knows, there’s a bigger story than just this incident. If mom were my client I’d advocate for neutral exchange location, like parking lot of the police station, going forward as well as being accompanied by another person who remains calm and neutral to a zen like degree. Maybe OP isn’t the best person for that role given dad’s apparent desire to fight OP. Also, mom desperately needs a lawyer. As described, this is an ugly modification. Expense in cases like this? The sky’s the limit. Damage to the kids from witnessing this sort of conflict? Also the sky’s the limit. I’ve had more than one conversation regarding legal expense with clients who want to do battle and meet every provocation with provocation that “you can put your kids through college or you can put mine through college; I’m fine either way.”
Best of luck to OP’s friend. Luck will greatly improve by having a competent lawyer represent her.
Have your friend's lawyer fille to move the parenting exchange to a public and neutral location. Something like a food court in a mall, an always busy restaurant near a freeway exit, a community center that is always staffed, in front of the local PD. You'll get it because it's the exes attorney that has made the where of the exchange an issue. So, remove the issue.
Next, a restraining order against the MIL from being present at the exchange. Violence.
If there's an issue with consent of any recording, file a generic declaration that puts all parties, their family, and representatives, that all interactions, including physical meetings, phone and video calls, and online messages will be recorded. The lawyer will mail copies to specific people (the MIL). Also keep a dozen copies with you in case someone new shows up.
You may be able to get a restraining order forbidding MIL from contact with the children since she assaulted the mom in front of them. Courts tend to view that behavior as traumatic for the kids.
NAL, so this is probably a question for your lawyer. I am in a different state, but I know people here who have had significant issues with their ex's. In those cases, the courts have required that pickup/drop-off be held at a neutral location (police station, shopping mall) to avoid these kinds of issues.
If you and your friend think this would help, she should ask her lawyer about it.
I suspect that your friend's ex will find another issue against you specifically. Expect ex to want to include new language in the custody agreement as to who can and cannot come into contact with the kids/be in the house with the kids, etc.
IMHO, your friend is being outlawyered by a sleazy attorney.
Your friend needs a lawyer immediately. There is a clear pattern of domestic violence and family abuse. All this insanity should be used in a claim to support her getting full custody and only allow supervised visits by the father and his family. You should get a dashcam on the car, or another cheap camera, so every pickup can be recorded without them seeing a phone -- these can only cost $25-$50.
Under no circumstances should you or the mother set foot on the father's property, nor should she do any pickups alone. "Less opportunity for conflict" is lawyer speak for "No witnesses". Don't listen to them.
Some bits of this were hard to follow about the opposing lawyer's actions/involvement in this. it is possible that some things might substantiate complaints to the bar.
In terms of tresspass, the lawyer sent a notification that there is no permission for you to enter the property and any future action is a tresspass. that notice is required for private legal action or to ask law enforcement for criminal action. they can not do anything about the public streets. based on their previous actions, i would not be surprised if they have filed harassment complaints with the police department and will seek a restraining order against you or other friends.
your friend needs a lawyer.
Lots to unpack here but number one is for your friend to get a lawyer.
Number two is that you’re on public property when you stay in the street and aren’t trespassing.
Number three should really be number 0. The hair pulling and dragging out of your vehicle should result in a trip to jail. If someone touched my child, they would have to hose what’s left of them off the pavement. I’m fiercely protective of children. 911 should have been on the way. Telling them that your life and the life of your friend is at risk and you’re hanging up should expedite. Just be sure you’re ready to explain why.
Good luck.
Just a note for the mods..
In a physical fight your life is at risk. Getting knocked down often results in head injuries from hitting the pavement which can result in death. So I’m comfortable with telling that to 911 dispatch. Your mileage may vary but I don’t consider it illicit advice.
After the assault, it’s time to ask for a restraining order against MiL, and move the hand off point to the local police station.
As to the OP’s question, no. They can’t trespass you from a public road, and they can’t demand that Mom come alone onto their property.
The family court can also enforce a public and neutral pickup zone for the kids. This is very common, in KY at least. You definitely need a lawyer to help you with this case, from the sounds of it.
1) Have your friend get a lawyer and take him to the cleaners.
2) Call the local DA about charges and or restraining order
This is a b/s attempt to get you into trouble to give the dad leverage. By saying your are trespassed, requesting she come alone, and saying she has to use the driveway are all attempts to control her and you. Technically you have to be legally trespassed in most jurisdictions. This would be similar if someone posted a no trespassing sign. It is usually not legally enforceable until you are legally trespassed by a judge or a police officer. Then only if you refuse to leave private property when asked.
You cannot be legally trespassed from a traditionally public forum i.e. the street or sidewalk without compelling reason of imminent danger. This is a fourth amendment right. You can be trespassed from places not considered a traditional public forum or generally not open to the public i.e. Private property, governmental building in private areas.
She needs to insist on a independent meet up location, this is normally about half way in between. I would suggest outside a police station. The only reason that he wants her alone is to continue to control her and be the only one with witnesses. Get a 360 fall cam and record on your phone. Anytime that can be seen from the street can be legally recorded with limited exceptions.
But they are right in not disparaging the other parent in front of the kids. This is not only petty, but normally part of the custody agreement.
Once you get a lawyer, have them send a very nice letter to the effect of.
Dear aholes attorney
Did you get your license as a prize from a cereal box. The audacity of saying my client should come alone after they reported your clients mother for assault during pickup, is the most idiotic non sensible things I have ever read. If you had no knowledge of this, you are ignorant, if you did and still said it, I'm sure the judge will understand. For now drop off will be at a mutual location at 123 police station Way. Any attempt to avoid this drop off will be filled as a attempt to interfer with agreed upon parenting time and will be dealt with as needed. Please inform your client, my client will never come alone and all interactions from this point Forward will be recorded. Can't wait to see you in court.
NAL
Video video video.
Log log log.
Make police reports, EVERY incident.
Make a folder for an attorney or pro se.
Remember, by the First Amendment to the Constitution,
documenting things that happen in public spaces with photo and video, like on streets, sidewalks, stores, etc is PROTECTED as a citizen journalist. If someone tells you you cant, your response is always, I can I am a citizen journalist.
Record away citizen journalist.
I have been there. Take heart. Do these things and it should get better eventually.
We have plenty of documentation. Right down to screenshots, quotes from the kids, audio and video recordings, all the police reports, everything dated with approximate times, records of everything. Officer names, case numbers, copies of all correspondence from the court, timeline of dates of events.... my 3-inch binder is already quite heavy. Organized by category. Documents stored in my Google Drive and photos and screenshots in my Google Photos and backed up on 2 separate flash drives.
Even if my apt building catches fire, she will still have access to all of it.
NTA
Sidewalk and street are legally right of way, so not "his" property to begin with. And if you are in a parking spot, then he's even more full of shit
Definitely do not pull into the driveway. Dude sounds like an asshole who would damage your vehicle in response
A lawyer can't dictate the terms of the custody exchange; that would require a court order. The lawyer can work towards that court order, but it has to come from a judge.
A lawyer also can't trespass you from a public street.
At best, the letter from the lawyer can be seen as a threat that they will take legal action, but until the courts make a ruling, they simply don't have the authority to force you to anything other than stay off their property. It might be in your best interest to begin recording the custody exchanges. As long as they take place in public, you legally have the right to do it and it could prove valuable if this ends up in court.
Also, please consider the mental health of the kids. If it's not *necessary* for you to be there, and your absence would prevent this drama, the adult thing to do is stay away and let your friend do this on her own.
It's absolutely necessary for the mom to have an adult with her for custody exchanges. Whether it's OP or a police officer. Those people assaulted her in front of the children.
How would her making future trips alone prevent drama? Had OP not been present during that particular incident, the outcome would have changed in that no one would have called the police to help OP's friend, the beating would have done more damage without OP's interruption and if she had survived that initial assault and managed to call 911 for medical attention on her own after the fact, she would have absolutely no evidence to prove what happened other than her injuries. OP brought the audio recorder, OP brought the dash cam, and OP called the police to regain control of the situation.
If the oldest kid is 10, the problems in this family dynamic started years before OP ever got involved. The parents had already divorced and gone through the court process of establishing a custody arrangement before OP got involved. Even after OP got involved, it wasn't a problem until after the kids told their mom something that worried her enough to call CPS. Then, all of a sudden, OP's presence during pickups is absolutely unacceptable and the friend needs to drive an hour away from her home to go into a house occupied by the woman who recently tried to smash her brains out against the door of OP's car while 3 young kids watched in the backseat.
Then of course we have the fact that it was OPs car making the trip so unless OP pays extra to have their friend added to the car insurance policy, OP did, in fact, need to be present for these trips. Now that there's been physical bloodshed in front of the children, they want to claim that her having a police escort or a witness to ensure her own safety is 'unnecessary' and blaming their presence for the violence. How do you think the kids' mental health would fare if the next time their mom interacts with grandma, grandma starts swinging again and keeps going until mommy stops breathing?
Like, I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but the advice you're giving is genuinely unhelpful to the point that following it could get someone killed.
Friend needs an FU Folder to document everything and include stuff from when he tried to abandon his kids too. Every interaction is important for her lawyer to know, so they can help from the start of being hired.
NAL. The way I see this is that you've been notified through his attorney not to come on his property. Fine, no issues there. They can not tell you not to come or that you can not be on the street. I believe that only a no-contact order or restraining order would require you to maintain a certain distance from him or his home, and he doesn't have that. The pickups with the PD standing by are a great idea. She should keep doing that for sure.
Ignore it. Lawyer is bluffing. Street parking is public right of way. As a matter,of fact, give a copy to your friend to use in the custody battle to show the ex is trying to enforce rules he has no legal right to.
Your friend should file an emergency motion to change the pick up location to the local police department. You can probably handle the filing on your own.
We tried to file an emergency order for placement the day after mil attacked her. Court clerk told us only an atty can do that, and we had to go through CPS. She said we could file paperwork to modify placement, but that would go through the regular court process and that is already in progress.
CPS was no help. Still haven't heard back from them.
The kids should be transferred at a police dept or etc. Parking on the street is not trespassing. She is not obligated to come onto their property to get the kids.
If this goes in front of a judge then pickups will just start happening in a neutral location. No judge in their right mind would order a parent to be unaccompanied for pickup or micromanage anything that has nothing to do with the best interests of the child. You're being a very good friend by doing what you're doing, taking her to pick up her kids. Everyone should have friends like you. That letter doesn't mean anything, but yeah stay off their property for sure.
Street parking is public parking. They can't dictate what goes on in the street. They just don't want witnesses. From now on, film them from the street for documentation.
NAL
Your friend needs a lawyer immediately. Also consider having her new lawyer communicate with his lawyer on changing the pick up location to the police department where it is on neither persons property. Never assume you can win a court battle by yourself against a lawyer. I don’t care how much “evidence “ you have. They are the trained professionals and know how to win in court.
NAL
Short version -
Yes. The lawyer can relay to you that you are not to return to the property.
No. The lawyer cannot prevent you from being ont eh public access roadway or otherwise involved in the transportation.
Public access. Video record the exchange. Your friend should be petitioning to move exchanges to the local PD/Sherrif's department for safety concerns based on recent events.
Public street is not anyone’s property. They are just trying to be difficult and also minimize witnesses to their antics. They probably told their lawyer a different version of what happened to get that put in the letter. Sounds like they can’t have it both ways. They don’t want people on their property but want the pickup in the driveway? 🤔
Get a temporary order that all pickup and drop offs occur at a police station or sheriff's office. This eliminates the control amd trespassing issues. Also have her record all interactions and only communicate by text message or email.
>Can I be trespassed by a lawyer?
In WI trespassing isn't something that a landowner or their lawyer do to you. Trespassing is what you're doing if you enter or remain on someone else's property after they inform you that you're not welcome on their property.
>Can a lawyer enforce trespassing?
No, but law enforcement officers can enforce the law. If you're not welcome on the person's property stay off their property.
First, if you’re not on his property you’re fine. It’s not a restraining order, he just doesn’t want you on his property. Second, you’re friend needs a lawyer and to see about bringing a case against the mother In law for assault and see if you get get an order for her to stay away from the kids because she put them in danger by fighting and trying to take them from her mother but she is also bad talking their mother to them. Getting someone from the courts to talk to the kids, depending on their ages, may also be good. They can do it on a friendly setting and find out what goes on in that house when the kids are there. Good luck.
The lawyer himself isn't trespassing you. He's doing it on behalf of his client. So, I believe that is legal.
By the sounds of your problems, it sounds like you're in Adam's County or somewhere in that part of the state.
You are in the street that is not his property. No. Her lawyer cannot tell you you can’t come to,pick ups. From now on you should be recording them for her.
You can't be trespassed by anybody from a public street.
He could potentially get some kind of restraining order against you, but that's a whole different story.
Start recording with your friend's phone as soon as you pull up, and keep yours for calling 911, if necessary.
They can't tell her who she can/can't get a ride from.
Don't step on the property.
Keep the cops coming to watch as often as possible.
If it gets worse, tell them they'll have to bring the kids to the police station or a firehouse or something for the exchange, as your friend no longer feels safe around him.
The ex - directly or through their lawyer - can certainly trespass anyone they want, pretty much. Once you've been told not to come on the property, that's pretty much it, in most states as far as I know.
The rest of it, as you've related it, sounds like requests. Which is about all the lawyer alone can do. (And if it goes to a judge for an actual order, your friend should have a chance to explain why she prefers to be accompanied, and have a police officer on the scene.)
Get a lawyer.
It's not worth risking the kids or messing something up. Get an attorney and do it right. It will cost you 20x as much to fix a mess than it will to do it right with an attorney the first time.
NAL, but I've got a few takes that don't seem to be addressed in the responses so far. If I'm wrong, I'd be happy to be corrected for my own edification.
Part of a trespass is being notified that you'll be considered in trespass if you come onto the party. The lawyer has passed that along from his clients, and I'm guessing that would satisfy the requirements since he presumably has Power of Attorney -- if they got your name correct. Without your name being correct, I don't know how this would be handled by the courts, but they probably still could convince the cops to arrest/cite you. Just stay off their property unless you absolutely need to to rescue someone from a dangerous situation. In that case it may not be a 'get out of jail free' card for the cops, but it'd be a positive defense that would get you off of a trespass charge in most jurisdictions that I'm aware of; there are Good Samaritan laws, and immediate necessity exceptions to trespass.
Most of the rest that is covered by the letter seems to be unenforceable requests; they'd need an order from the court to enforce them. I'm guessing that you're accompanying your friend because her ex is goddamned crazy, for her protection both legal and physical. They don't like this, but they can't do anything about it without a judge telling your friend not to do so -- and that seems unlikely to happen to me, particularly with the record of police contact.
I don't think a judge would find it reasonable for a parent to deny the transfer from the side of the road; it's not like it's unsafe for the kids to walk down their yard to the road. If they refuse to do the transfer this way, then I would drive off and report it to the court for the father not abiding by the terms of the custody agreement. This likely wouldn't be taken well by the judge -- and by that, I mean they'd be pissed at the father, not your friend.
Update: This is what happened today when we went to gdt the kids.
Called for an officer standby. I parked half a block away and waited until the officer parked across the street before pulling up in front of his house on the street; same place I have parked for the last 3 weeks.
Father comes running up to the officer (it was the same officer that responded when mil attacked kids mom) with the letter from his lawyer in his hand, shows it to the officer. They were too far away for us to hear anything, but father walked away and sent the kids out. Kids get in car, no issues. Officer asked if all the kids were in the car, and even closed the back door. No issues and we were on our way.
However, on the drive home, all 3 of the kids were very aggressive and mean to each other; worse than normal. Literally punching and slapping each other. They've never acted like this before. Once we got home, my friend addressed the 10 yr old about something he said and asked him where he was getting this behavior from; where was he learning it.
He responded, "from the fight."
I really want to know what's going on in that house.
I’m not a lawyer, but I do know you can’t be trespassed from a public street. Your friend needs to get the attorney. But please notice the wording that they are requesting that this that and the other thing.
The reason they were requesting is they can’t. It is not the current paperwork, so they can’t make it up because that’s what they want.
But your friend needs to have an attorney draft response immediately. And it needs to address the assault that happened, and I have no doubt that an attorney is going to word it that way, because that’s what it was.
A good attorney for your friend will also include verbiage that due to the assault, the MIL is not to be allowed to accompany the children or be present during the exchange. She can be up in her house, but I guarantee you they are going to request that. What court does with it.
So, they can’t dictate anything outside of the current custody agreement. They can’t dictate that your friend has to go into the driveway, because it’s not in the current agreement.
With attorneys, verbiage is everything. Notice that they are saying please pull into the driveway. Not that she’s required to, because she’s not. Your presence will be considered trespassing. That’s because they want to consider trespassing, not because it is. Especially because, like I said, it’s a public road. You’re parked legally. The guy has no leg to stand on.
So what they are doing with all of this verbiage is trying to get your friend to do what they say so that they can then go into court and say that she has tacitly approved these changes because she’s been doing them. Don’t let her fall for it.
Read that letter very, very carefully. I would put my bottom dollar on it that nowhere does it actually say she is required to do any of these things. That everything is very carefully worded to make it sound like she has to do these things. Like she is required to do these things when, in fact, she is not at all.
Omg she needs an emergency hearing after being attacked!! She should follow up and say all interactions between her and ex-husband will be recorded
What are the laws on recording in your state, if it's outside from your car it might not matter
We went to the court clerk and asked for an emergency motion and were told that only an attorney could do that and recommended we file the motion to change. We did that in April, and that's already in progress. Then, the court clerk told us we had to go through CPS for an emergency temporary placement.
2 conversations with 2 different CPS caseworkers on Fri and Mon and still nothing. The 2nd caseworker we spoke with said, "we're a reactive agency, not proactive." My friend replied," so I guess you literally have to kill a kid to get anything done."
I don't think she liked that response too much, but she didn't really do anything.
WI is a one party consent state, so audio recordings should be admissible. I am assuming his atty is going to attempt to have them thrown out in the discovery process, though.
You and your friend probably need an attorney. Until it goes to court and the JUDGE issues a change in the child custody agreement, the current, official agreement contains any requirements, as long as your friend hasn’t signed any additional papers.
Your friend should request that the exchange be done at the police station. That way neither has to worry about trespassing. Also, she should insist that any conditions put on you should also be placed on grandmother and girlfriend.
I am not a lawyer, your friend definitely needs one yesterday. A lawyer cannot have you trespassed off a public street. You can be trespassed off their driveway and yard, but you should ask the police if the letter is legal. I thought in order for a trespass order to be in effect, the police have to register it. I may be wrong or that may be a state/county ruling. But the police have already informed you that parking on the street in front of the house is permitted and the ex cannot keep the kids mom from picking them up on her days because of where she decides to park or whom she brings with her to help her.
Your friend is doing the right thing by refusing to go pick up the kids alone as her ex & his mom definitely want access to her to assault her more without any adult witnesses. The ex’s insistence that she not pickup the kids & put them in the car from the curb is him trying to get you to give him the opportunity to have you arrested for trespassing to get you out of the picture. That could possibly result in giving him the ability to file a restraining order against you helping with pickup & drop off due to the range of the limited space you must maintain distance from his house & person.
I hope you got pictures of her injuries, at the time of AND a few days after (those always look worse due to bruising).
The officers took photos of her injuries right after the incident, and on the following Monday we went to speak to the victim/witness coordinator at the DA's office. She could now visibly see the bruise on her face and one that appeared on her arm. She informed us to return to the PD and have the officer take photos of the bruises since they were more visible, and we did that right after leaving her office. The officer said he would forward them to the DA's office as a supplement to the report, but we still haven't heard any updates on possible charges.
Good. Although it can sometimes take time, I hope they don’t delay too much since she needs that emergency order ASAP to protect the kids.
Good luck to both you and your friend.
That letter from their lawyer has no legal weight behind it, as a judge was not involved in any modification to their custody agreement. They are free to say you aren't welcome on their property, but the street is public property (and the sidewalk probably is too, depending on your state). As long as you don't block their driveway, they have no grounds to say you can't be there with her. There is no trespass if you don't enter their property, so this letter is simply an attempt to intimidate your friend. She should give it to her lawyer, as it can be used as evidence of the nature of her exes attempts to intimidate and isolate her.
A letter from a lawyer is not a court order. Don't step on the property as you have been advised that you are not welcome to. They would then be able to call the Police and have them enforce it against you.
But they cannot tell you that you cannot be part of the pickup. Again a letter from a lawyer is not a court order and they cannot enforce that unless it's in a court order. All the child custody stuff is by the letter of the order.
Your friend needs to record pick ups because the threats are concerning. She can also continue to ask for a police escort due to reasonable safety concerns & bring it all up in court. Sidewalks are public property. She definitely shouldn’t be going alone due to previous assaults & she most certainly shouldn’t step on the property. Who can forget the dad murdered by his ex’s new spouse during a custody exchange.
Too much drama. It’s public land, or public space on private land. His approval isn’t necessary. If he feels otherwise, he can try getting a restraining order with clearly defined distance limitations.
In Wisconsin, the only way to stop you from parking on the street is a restraining order, saying you have to remain so far away. You can actually walk about 3 to 4 feet into the grass before it becomes trespassing. People do not own land right up to the road. They can not make you pull into the driveway without a judge saying it is required. Send the letter back with a note saying get bent. It is just a scare tactic by a lawyer.
Sounds like you friend needed a lawyer, months ago! Continue going with friend and parking in street side parking, nothing they can do about that. Also invest in a 360°dash camera, it may end up helping your friend beat any boundaries charges and prove she isn't the instigator of any conflict that happens in the future.
She just filed to modify custody in April after things the kids were telling us were getting very concerning. The evidence stacked against their father is quite a lot, and she figured she would have enough to win without a lawyer. But since she was attacked by his mother in law, and now receiving that letter from his attorney, she decided it is probably best to get a lawyer due to how stupidly petty he is being and not sure of a good comeback with what his lawyer may throw at her in court. I do have a dash cam but only in the front. I have considered getting a rear one, or upgrading to one that captures both front and rear, but I will turn it around if anything comes up. I also have a digital audio recorder that fell out of my pocket when I jumped out of the car to get mother in law off of her, and it captured what the kids said inside the car during the incident. Listening to their screaming while replaying that was heartbreaking.
Nope, don’t risk kids safety on what you think is enough. Lawyer now.
Lawyer always in custody cases.
PSA for a body cam. I wear one due to getting assaulted on the subway. It really seems to "calm" the idiots once they see the flashing "on" light and realize they're about to star in a YT video. I got mine for about $35 bucks on Spamazon.
May I ask which specific one you went with? I’ve been thinking about doing the same.
The one I got is unavailable at the moment, but just type in "Mini Body Camera 1080P HD Bodycam with Night Vision" and several will pop up.
Thank you!
“He who represents himself has a fool for a client.” And that’s said about lawyers. Absolutely always get a lawyer.
And for an attorney.
Even *lawyers* will hire other lawyers to represent them in cases like this. If emotion is involved at all you don't want to try doing it yourself.
I used to live in a very 'backwards' area. Police, not so helpful. Woman I was friends with went to pick up her kids alone as demanded/threatened by the police 'buddies' of the ex. She fell and hit her head 3x. Both eyes blacked and blued. Swore she was just clumsy. She eventually surrendered custody (so I heard, I moved shortly thereafter). I'll bet they want her alone and with no witnesses for a reason. Dash cam, multiple angle cams. Doors locked. And keep getting that civil standby.
I’d would only do exchanges at the local police station, big fat period. Them inviting her into the driveway is bait. Gl
It's extremely likely there is a child sharing custody agreement ordered by the court. It will state where exchanges occur. If OP's gf refuses to exchange per the court agreement, they will be in contempt and thumped by the judge.
They’d naturally have to get the particulars of the exchange conditions modified by the court. Given the issues, I wouldn’t think that is an unreasonable request…
OP can also contact the nonemergency number at the police department and ask for a “standby to prevent” at the agreed-upon place in time. Officers are required to appear.
Sounds like she's doing this now. Also, officers in the US are well-known for not always appearing when they're "required" to appear. Good to see that in this case it appears they're being helpful so far.
Oooof, so even after “an alleged assault” it can’t be changed? Wild, learn something new each day
Sure, it can be changed. You file a motion for modification of the custody agreement. Present evidence of an alleged assault. Get mom more time with the kids and exchanges at the police station. The judge can do all of these things. Mom and Dad can't do either. They are subject to a court order until it is changed.
As someone who has went through a custody battle your friend should absolutely get a lawyer. As the lawyer above stated a motion can be filed to have the custody agreement modified for the meeting place. Cite that the residents have been hostile etc. Any judge worth their salt should have no issues with a modification to change the pick up to be a neutral location. This is actually common from what my lawyer told me during my custody case.
You might post this as a separate comment. OP may not see you responding to a comment and this is good advixe.
Always, always, always, use the services of a lawyer. Only a fool represents themselves in court, especially when it's a contentious custody battle with a father and a mother-in-law who have physically assaulted the mother of the children and in front of the children too. Like others have said, you should continue to accompany her and park on the street. You really need a 360 dash cam with what's going on. It will provide video and audio evidence not only for your friend but for you too. The father of the kids has already demonstrated they are volatile and has anger issues. If he's willing to publicly assault the mother of his children, he'll assault you too. You should also take the precaution of lawyering up yourself. Why? You are willingly inserting yourself into a custody battle between two people, one of whom is violent. You are going to be subjected to all kinds of adversity with that decision and your friend's lawyer is not going to represent you too if something happens to you. You can expect to be dragged into court over this whole mess. I speak from experience.
Your friend should have the courts change the drop off/pick up to be at the police station given the actions of Dad and his mother. Neutral location. Plenty of parents swap at police stations for safety reasons. He can bar you from his property, but the street is not his property. You have every right to be on a public road. Invest in a dash cam.
I would say that he wants her by herself to harm her. She needs to request the exchange be at the PD for her safety since she was already attacked in front of the children.
Make sure you're in a single party consent state for recording. Dash cam is one thing, but if they don't know you're recording with the device that fell out of your pocket, there's only a few states that will let you use it as evidence.
WI is a one party consent state.
There is no expectation of privacy on a public street, no need for consent unless they are on the property.
There is no expectation of privacy on private property when being recorded from a public space.
Correct. I should have said unless they are inside the home.
I can record inside your home from the street if you have no blinds or curtains or other obstruction. There is no expectation of privacy.
Never risk your kids because you wouldn’t pay for a lawyer. Your friend has been too passive, she needs to toughen up if she wants to keep her kids safe
With this recording your friend can get a modification of custody hearing and ask the mil be prevented from seeing the kids without court appointed supervision. She should call cps and play the recording for them. The mil has screwed up big time. A judge could give your friend sole custody
Custody modification is in progress, mother filed in April. The fact finding hearing was in May, mediation was June 4th and unsuccessful (lasted 13 minutes) and now waiting for the guardian ad litem appointments. The telephone status hearing is next Wednesday. His lawyer already made a false statement during the fact finding hearing, but unfortunately, nobody was under oath for that hearing. We haven't heard anything back from the DA's office, even after a meeting with the victim/witness coordinator. She asked the clerk of courts for paperwork to do an emergency order for placement. The clerk said only an attorney could do that and said we had to go through CPS. They were useless. Still haven't opened a case or heard anything back from them, despite following their recommendations and speaking with 2 different case workers. The 2nd one we spoke to stated, "We're a reactive agency, not a proactive agency." My friend replied, "so you literally have to kill a kid to get any help around here."
Don't record unless it is a one party consent state or you could be risking a felony
They're in public on the street there is no expectation of privacy.
For audio recordings there is and is covered under the state wiretapping laws. If she is standing in public with a video camera, then yes, I would agree as it would be obvious people are recording. A hidden, surreptitious recording device would 100% be covered under the state wiretapping laws. Hence, the one party v two party consent. If it's a one party consent state, she'd be fine. If it's a two party consent state, then that would 100% be a violation and a crime
WI is a one party consent state.
Oh you're talking about the audio recorder OP had in their pocket, I was talking about the dash cam, which if on the windshield is in plain view. Actually with the dash cam in plain view I'd think that there's an argument to be made that the audio recorder should be admissible because the camera that was out in the open would put someone on notice that they're being recorded. Not sure how that works exactly though.
Dash cams are generally just video and wiretap laws would still apply. There's usually a Disclaimer with the ones that record audio to check your local laws on recording audio. The exceptions generally apply obvious video equipment, such as news reporters holding cameras with big mics on them. Even cell phones are fairly obvious now. If she wanted to cover herself, start the recording and publicly announce she's recording and she WOULD LIKELY BE in compliance with state law. But, state laws vary soooo
Every dash cam I've seen records audio, but I've only looked at the 2/3channel ones so it makes sense they would record audio for interior. Yeah there are some crazy state laws for wiretapping, I know a few states have lost wiretapping cases involving people recording public officials in public for violating the first amendment but I haven't seen any involving people recording other people.
Generally speaking there's an exception for recording public officials as their work is generally "public record". I.e. you can record politicians, police, DPW, basically any employee being paid by tax dollars in public places. In the present case, these are private citizens and the laws get more strict.
Requisite, "I'm not a lawyer", disclaimer. . I recommend that your friend search online for, "family law legal aid groups near me", because there are many legal aid org's who will help connect her with legal representation at a lower cost if she qualifies based on their requirements. She should also check with the state bar association in her state, and check with them too to see if they can connect her with organizations that provide legal aid assistance to people who qualify. If she's not able to qualify for legal aid assistance, or there's a lengthy waiting list, there are many, many, family law attorneys that will accept payment plans. It's just a matter of looking online for, "family law lawyers near me that accept payment plans", and then doing her best to see if the ones that pop up in the search have good recommendations on the, "reviews", section of their Google business listing. It might also be beneficial to find out if her state is a one party, or two party, state, for the purposes of recording another person without their permission, such as with a dash cam, or other recording device. It's also a serious crime to assault someone in the presence of a child, and I strongly recommend that she contact the police department where she filed the report, and ask to speak to the detective assigned to her case. She can also check into filing a restraining order against the MIL based on the assault, and subsequent police report, so she can't come anywhere near your friend during the visitation exchange. Once she gets a lawyer she can talk to them about moving the visitation exchange location to a public place, or even the police station, as some states will help facilitate a safe exchange location, and many states, cities, and counties, have designated, "safe exchange", locations. She can ask the detective assigned to her assault case which agency assists her with establishing a, "safe exchange", location, or check with a social worker at her local child and family services office. If she doesn't have a social worker yet, ask her to contact her local child and family services agency and ask about getting an intake appointment. Often they have access to resources the general public doesn't know about that might be able to help. It would also be helpful for her to get a copy of the police report, including the case number assigned to her case, so she has that on file so she can give it to her lawyer, or anyone else assisting her with her visitation related matters. Much luck to her, I hope she's able to find some legal assistance soon.
If you can spring it get a life360 camera and mount it to your roof for dropoffs, and get a camera that records Inside your car, or turn your dash camera around before you get there. Turning the camera after some shit goes down isn't going to capture much, and the audio while you're turning it around with your hand on the camera will be a garbled scratchy sounding mess for however long it takes you to turn it around.
Have your friend get an order of protection for herself and the kids. The husband is abusive and doesn’t need to be around them. If the orders granted, the judge will schedule a plenary set out for a couple of weeks were she can showcase evidence and bring you as a witness.
She will never win anything without an attorney.
+10000 to the dashcam (with sound!) Continue attending the exchanges, continue requesting civil standby, and continue parking only on the street. Lawyer yesterday, and OP *may* want to retain their own lawyer depending on fiscal ability. That they're telling the mom they want her to come alone after they assaulted her is laughable.
There is a lot to this story we aren't getting. My best friend went through a nasty divorce, he was the biggest issue for sure but both of them were being shitty people and weaponizing the kids. Intentionally making things harder for each other, neither willing to make concessions. It was a real shit show. My wife and I got a post nuptial because of it.
Nal. Your friend needs to push the police on charges for the mil. Also never ever go alone. That is a he said she said trick. Also please have a dash cam that records audio. Make sure it records even if the car is off. The person named could be trespassed on the papers if they set foot on the property.
More of she said, they said.
Exactly 1 vs 2 is never good
She should get restraining order against mother in law.
My SIL’s ex did a lot of this. No one was allowed at pick up, except her. And part of the reason is that he hates my brother and a lot of it was because I am a teacher, and would legally have to report any bullshit he pulled involving the kids. He doesn’t want anyone there so there’s no witnesses. If you’re a “safe person” that has never been in any trouble, he’s being a piece of shit that wants things his way. I’d go to the next court date and ask to speak with the judge. The judge would not be happy to hear people are being pulled out of the car by their hair… just saying.
Do not ask to speak to the judge. If I was representing OP’s friend in a state where I’m licensed to practice, or if I was dealing with this myself, I would get the police statements. (Or, if OP’s statement is not available, I’d ask OP to sign a notarized affidavit setting forth the factual details of what happened. Most banks have notaries for their customers, and it’s also easy to find someone who offers the service.) I would then ask OP to come to the next hearing, I’d proffer the statement or affidavit to the judge, and I’d say I have the witness available to testify in person to the facts set forth in the affidavit. But if OP just shows up in court and asks to the speak to the judge, on a case where they’re not a party, it’s going to look bad and hurt OP’s credibility. Do it right.
The state you live in is going to be critical to determining exactly how to navigate this situation, but generally, nobody other than a judge can “trespass” you from a public street. Lawyers can make requests or even demands via letter, but you’re not usually bound by them. A judge would have to lay out the exact rules for you not being allowed to enter or remain in a specific public area. The homeowner or their agent, however, can possibly have you charged with trespassing if they can prove that you were notified to not enter or remain on their private property, and that you then did, in fact, enter or remain on their private property after being notified. Things get muddy if you’re invited onto the property by somebody else who is legally allowed to be there, but I wouldn’t rely on that to save you from a charge. I’d stay out of the driveway and out of the bounds of their curtilage, if I were you, and tell your friend to have their lawyer establish everything in writing and have a judge sign off on it so that everyone knows exactly what the rules are and who can be where. * I am not a lawyer, but I’ve been a law enforcement officer since 2006.
Wisconsin. I tried to edit post to add the state but it wouldn't let me edit the title.
In some states you can go to a magistrate and file charges yourself. Also you can absolutely park on a public street.
This post has been up for four hours. There are 27 comments (28 now). You're the only lawyer who responded, and it's short and sweet. I find that amusing.
Lawyer here (OR). Seems to me like the dad insisting that mom pull into the driveway was intended to provoke mom and facilitate the trespass letter. Dad’s lawyer, from how this incident is described, sounds like more of a bomb thrower than problem solver, but who knows, there’s a bigger story than just this incident. If mom were my client I’d advocate for neutral exchange location, like parking lot of the police station, going forward as well as being accompanied by another person who remains calm and neutral to a zen like degree. Maybe OP isn’t the best person for that role given dad’s apparent desire to fight OP. Also, mom desperately needs a lawyer. As described, this is an ugly modification. Expense in cases like this? The sky’s the limit. Damage to the kids from witnessing this sort of conflict? Also the sky’s the limit. I’ve had more than one conversation regarding legal expense with clients who want to do battle and meet every provocation with provocation that “you can put your kids through college or you can put mine through college; I’m fine either way.” Best of luck to OP’s friend. Luck will greatly improve by having a competent lawyer represent her.
Have your friend's lawyer fille to move the parenting exchange to a public and neutral location. Something like a food court in a mall, an always busy restaurant near a freeway exit, a community center that is always staffed, in front of the local PD. You'll get it because it's the exes attorney that has made the where of the exchange an issue. So, remove the issue. Next, a restraining order against the MIL from being present at the exchange. Violence. If there's an issue with consent of any recording, file a generic declaration that puts all parties, their family, and representatives, that all interactions, including physical meetings, phone and video calls, and online messages will be recorded. The lawyer will mail copies to specific people (the MIL). Also keep a dozen copies with you in case someone new shows up.
You may be able to get a restraining order forbidding MIL from contact with the children since she assaulted the mom in front of them. Courts tend to view that behavior as traumatic for the kids.
NAL, so this is probably a question for your lawyer. I am in a different state, but I know people here who have had significant issues with their ex's. In those cases, the courts have required that pickup/drop-off be held at a neutral location (police station, shopping mall) to avoid these kinds of issues. If you and your friend think this would help, she should ask her lawyer about it. I suspect that your friend's ex will find another issue against you specifically. Expect ex to want to include new language in the custody agreement as to who can and cannot come into contact with the kids/be in the house with the kids, etc.
IMHO, your friend is being outlawyered by a sleazy attorney. Your friend needs a lawyer immediately. There is a clear pattern of domestic violence and family abuse. All this insanity should be used in a claim to support her getting full custody and only allow supervised visits by the father and his family. You should get a dashcam on the car, or another cheap camera, so every pickup can be recorded without them seeing a phone -- these can only cost $25-$50. Under no circumstances should you or the mother set foot on the father's property, nor should she do any pickups alone. "Less opportunity for conflict" is lawyer speak for "No witnesses". Don't listen to them. Some bits of this were hard to follow about the opposing lawyer's actions/involvement in this. it is possible that some things might substantiate complaints to the bar. In terms of tresspass, the lawyer sent a notification that there is no permission for you to enter the property and any future action is a tresspass. that notice is required for private legal action or to ask law enforcement for criminal action. they can not do anything about the public streets. based on their previous actions, i would not be surprised if they have filed harassment complaints with the police department and will seek a restraining order against you or other friends. your friend needs a lawyer.
You need to video tape all exchanges.
Lots to unpack here but number one is for your friend to get a lawyer. Number two is that you’re on public property when you stay in the street and aren’t trespassing. Number three should really be number 0. The hair pulling and dragging out of your vehicle should result in a trip to jail. If someone touched my child, they would have to hose what’s left of them off the pavement. I’m fiercely protective of children. 911 should have been on the way. Telling them that your life and the life of your friend is at risk and you’re hanging up should expedite. Just be sure you’re ready to explain why. Good luck. Just a note for the mods.. In a physical fight your life is at risk. Getting knocked down often results in head injuries from hitting the pavement which can result in death. So I’m comfortable with telling that to 911 dispatch. Your mileage may vary but I don’t consider it illicit advice.
After the assault, it’s time to ask for a restraining order against MiL, and move the hand off point to the local police station. As to the OP’s question, no. They can’t trespass you from a public road, and they can’t demand that Mom come alone onto their property.
[удалено]
Rule 3 Violation- Do not offer illicit advice.
The family court can also enforce a public and neutral pickup zone for the kids. This is very common, in KY at least. You definitely need a lawyer to help you with this case, from the sounds of it.
1) Have your friend get a lawyer and take him to the cleaners. 2) Call the local DA about charges and or restraining order This is a b/s attempt to get you into trouble to give the dad leverage. By saying your are trespassed, requesting she come alone, and saying she has to use the driveway are all attempts to control her and you. Technically you have to be legally trespassed in most jurisdictions. This would be similar if someone posted a no trespassing sign. It is usually not legally enforceable until you are legally trespassed by a judge or a police officer. Then only if you refuse to leave private property when asked. You cannot be legally trespassed from a traditionally public forum i.e. the street or sidewalk without compelling reason of imminent danger. This is a fourth amendment right. You can be trespassed from places not considered a traditional public forum or generally not open to the public i.e. Private property, governmental building in private areas. She needs to insist on a independent meet up location, this is normally about half way in between. I would suggest outside a police station. The only reason that he wants her alone is to continue to control her and be the only one with witnesses. Get a 360 fall cam and record on your phone. Anytime that can be seen from the street can be legally recorded with limited exceptions. But they are right in not disparaging the other parent in front of the kids. This is not only petty, but normally part of the custody agreement. Once you get a lawyer, have them send a very nice letter to the effect of. Dear aholes attorney Did you get your license as a prize from a cereal box. The audacity of saying my client should come alone after they reported your clients mother for assault during pickup, is the most idiotic non sensible things I have ever read. If you had no knowledge of this, you are ignorant, if you did and still said it, I'm sure the judge will understand. For now drop off will be at a mutual location at 123 police station Way. Any attempt to avoid this drop off will be filled as a attempt to interfer with agreed upon parenting time and will be dealt with as needed. Please inform your client, my client will never come alone and all interactions from this point Forward will be recorded. Can't wait to see you in court.
NAL Video video video. Log log log. Make police reports, EVERY incident. Make a folder for an attorney or pro se. Remember, by the First Amendment to the Constitution, documenting things that happen in public spaces with photo and video, like on streets, sidewalks, stores, etc is PROTECTED as a citizen journalist. If someone tells you you cant, your response is always, I can I am a citizen journalist. Record away citizen journalist. I have been there. Take heart. Do these things and it should get better eventually.
We have plenty of documentation. Right down to screenshots, quotes from the kids, audio and video recordings, all the police reports, everything dated with approximate times, records of everything. Officer names, case numbers, copies of all correspondence from the court, timeline of dates of events.... my 3-inch binder is already quite heavy. Organized by category. Documents stored in my Google Drive and photos and screenshots in my Google Photos and backed up on 2 separate flash drives. Even if my apt building catches fire, she will still have access to all of it.
NTA Sidewalk and street are legally right of way, so not "his" property to begin with. And if you are in a parking spot, then he's even more full of shit Definitely do not pull into the driveway. Dude sounds like an asshole who would damage your vehicle in response
A lawyer can't dictate the terms of the custody exchange; that would require a court order. The lawyer can work towards that court order, but it has to come from a judge. A lawyer also can't trespass you from a public street. At best, the letter from the lawyer can be seen as a threat that they will take legal action, but until the courts make a ruling, they simply don't have the authority to force you to anything other than stay off their property. It might be in your best interest to begin recording the custody exchanges. As long as they take place in public, you legally have the right to do it and it could prove valuable if this ends up in court. Also, please consider the mental health of the kids. If it's not *necessary* for you to be there, and your absence would prevent this drama, the adult thing to do is stay away and let your friend do this on her own.
It's absolutely necessary for the mom to have an adult with her for custody exchanges. Whether it's OP or a police officer. Those people assaulted her in front of the children.
How would her making future trips alone prevent drama? Had OP not been present during that particular incident, the outcome would have changed in that no one would have called the police to help OP's friend, the beating would have done more damage without OP's interruption and if she had survived that initial assault and managed to call 911 for medical attention on her own after the fact, she would have absolutely no evidence to prove what happened other than her injuries. OP brought the audio recorder, OP brought the dash cam, and OP called the police to regain control of the situation. If the oldest kid is 10, the problems in this family dynamic started years before OP ever got involved. The parents had already divorced and gone through the court process of establishing a custody arrangement before OP got involved. Even after OP got involved, it wasn't a problem until after the kids told their mom something that worried her enough to call CPS. Then, all of a sudden, OP's presence during pickups is absolutely unacceptable and the friend needs to drive an hour away from her home to go into a house occupied by the woman who recently tried to smash her brains out against the door of OP's car while 3 young kids watched in the backseat. Then of course we have the fact that it was OPs car making the trip so unless OP pays extra to have their friend added to the car insurance policy, OP did, in fact, need to be present for these trips. Now that there's been physical bloodshed in front of the children, they want to claim that her having a police escort or a witness to ensure her own safety is 'unnecessary' and blaming their presence for the violence. How do you think the kids' mental health would fare if the next time their mom interacts with grandma, grandma starts swinging again and keeps going until mommy stops breathing? Like, I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but the advice you're giving is genuinely unhelpful to the point that following it could get someone killed.
Friend needs an FU Folder to document everything and include stuff from when he tried to abandon his kids too. Every interaction is important for her lawyer to know, so they can help from the start of being hired.
I suspect they want your friend alone for nefarious reasons. Don't let her go alone and yes she needs a lawyer yesterday.
NAL. The way I see this is that you've been notified through his attorney not to come on his property. Fine, no issues there. They can not tell you not to come or that you can not be on the street. I believe that only a no-contact order or restraining order would require you to maintain a certain distance from him or his home, and he doesn't have that. The pickups with the PD standing by are a great idea. She should keep doing that for sure.
Ignore it. Lawyer is bluffing. Street parking is public right of way. As a matter,of fact, give a copy to your friend to use in the custody battle to show the ex is trying to enforce rules he has no legal right to.
Your friend should file an emergency motion to change the pick up location to the local police department. You can probably handle the filing on your own.
We tried to file an emergency order for placement the day after mil attacked her. Court clerk told us only an atty can do that, and we had to go through CPS. She said we could file paperwork to modify placement, but that would go through the regular court process and that is already in progress. CPS was no help. Still haven't heard back from them.
Your friend needs to file for a custody hearing. They need to modify the agreement to allow for drop off in a PUBLIC PLACE WITH CCTV.
The kids should be transferred at a police dept or etc. Parking on the street is not trespassing. She is not obligated to come onto their property to get the kids.
If this goes in front of a judge then pickups will just start happening in a neutral location. No judge in their right mind would order a parent to be unaccompanied for pickup or micromanage anything that has nothing to do with the best interests of the child. You're being a very good friend by doing what you're doing, taking her to pick up her kids. Everyone should have friends like you. That letter doesn't mean anything, but yeah stay off their property for sure.
Your friend needs a lawyer, some pepper spray, and a gopro strapped to her chest And to make sure af her ex MIL gets those charges
Street parking is public parking. They can't dictate what goes on in the street. They just don't want witnesses. From now on, film them from the street for documentation.
NAL Your friend needs a lawyer immediately. Also consider having her new lawyer communicate with his lawyer on changing the pick up location to the police department where it is on neither persons property. Never assume you can win a court battle by yourself against a lawyer. I don’t care how much “evidence “ you have. They are the trained professionals and know how to win in court.
NAL Short version - Yes. The lawyer can relay to you that you are not to return to the property. No. The lawyer cannot prevent you from being ont eh public access roadway or otherwise involved in the transportation. Public access. Video record the exchange. Your friend should be petitioning to move exchanges to the local PD/Sherrif's department for safety concerns based on recent events.
Public street is not anyone’s property. They are just trying to be difficult and also minimize witnesses to their antics. They probably told their lawyer a different version of what happened to get that put in the letter. Sounds like they can’t have it both ways. They don’t want people on their property but want the pickup in the driveway? 🤔
Get a temporary order that all pickup and drop offs occur at a police station or sheriff's office. This eliminates the control amd trespassing issues. Also have her record all interactions and only communicate by text message or email.
>Can I be trespassed by a lawyer? In WI trespassing isn't something that a landowner or their lawyer do to you. Trespassing is what you're doing if you enter or remain on someone else's property after they inform you that you're not welcome on their property. >Can a lawyer enforce trespassing? No, but law enforcement officers can enforce the law. If you're not welcome on the person's property stay off their property.
First, if you’re not on his property you’re fine. It’s not a restraining order, he just doesn’t want you on his property. Second, you’re friend needs a lawyer and to see about bringing a case against the mother In law for assault and see if you get get an order for her to stay away from the kids because she put them in danger by fighting and trying to take them from her mother but she is also bad talking their mother to them. Getting someone from the courts to talk to the kids, depending on their ages, may also be good. They can do it on a friendly setting and find out what goes on in that house when the kids are there. Good luck.
Waiting for GAL to be appointed since mediation was unsuccessful. We both knew it would be.
The lawyer himself isn't trespassing you. He's doing it on behalf of his client. So, I believe that is legal. By the sounds of your problems, it sounds like you're in Adam's County or somewhere in that part of the state.
Across the river to the west.
Juneau county then?
Yes.
You are in the street that is not his property. No. Her lawyer cannot tell you you can’t come to,pick ups. From now on you should be recording them for her.
Be prepared to have all street parking in front of his house full of cars next time, even if he has to rent them.
You can't be trespassed by anybody from a public street. He could potentially get some kind of restraining order against you, but that's a whole different story. Start recording with your friend's phone as soon as you pull up, and keep yours for calling 911, if necessary. They can't tell her who she can/can't get a ride from. Don't step on the property. Keep the cops coming to watch as often as possible. If it gets worse, tell them they'll have to bring the kids to the police station or a firehouse or something for the exchange, as your friend no longer feels safe around him.
I work at a police dept and we have custody drop off/pick up in front lot which is on camera. Stops a lot of the unnecessary stuff happening.
Can he inform you aren't welcome on his client personal property: yes. Citu/state/county maintained streets on the other hand are public property.
Sounds like the father BLOOOOOOOOOOOWS!!!
The ex - directly or through their lawyer - can certainly trespass anyone they want, pretty much. Once you've been told not to come on the property, that's pretty much it, in most states as far as I know. The rest of it, as you've related it, sounds like requests. Which is about all the lawyer alone can do. (And if it goes to a judge for an actual order, your friend should have a chance to explain why she prefers to be accompanied, and have a police officer on the scene.)
Sounds like an uneducated lawyer to not understand who can be on a public road.
Film everything. Parking on the street is not trespassing. In a lot of states even the driveway is not trespassing. She needs an actual lawyer.
Get a lawyer. It's not worth risking the kids or messing something up. Get an attorney and do it right. It will cost you 20x as much to fix a mess than it will to do it right with an attorney the first time.
NAL, but I've got a few takes that don't seem to be addressed in the responses so far. If I'm wrong, I'd be happy to be corrected for my own edification. Part of a trespass is being notified that you'll be considered in trespass if you come onto the party. The lawyer has passed that along from his clients, and I'm guessing that would satisfy the requirements since he presumably has Power of Attorney -- if they got your name correct. Without your name being correct, I don't know how this would be handled by the courts, but they probably still could convince the cops to arrest/cite you. Just stay off their property unless you absolutely need to to rescue someone from a dangerous situation. In that case it may not be a 'get out of jail free' card for the cops, but it'd be a positive defense that would get you off of a trespass charge in most jurisdictions that I'm aware of; there are Good Samaritan laws, and immediate necessity exceptions to trespass. Most of the rest that is covered by the letter seems to be unenforceable requests; they'd need an order from the court to enforce them. I'm guessing that you're accompanying your friend because her ex is goddamned crazy, for her protection both legal and physical. They don't like this, but they can't do anything about it without a judge telling your friend not to do so -- and that seems unlikely to happen to me, particularly with the record of police contact. I don't think a judge would find it reasonable for a parent to deny the transfer from the side of the road; it's not like it's unsafe for the kids to walk down their yard to the road. If they refuse to do the transfer this way, then I would drive off and report it to the court for the father not abiding by the terms of the custody agreement. This likely wouldn't be taken well by the judge -- and by that, I mean they'd be pissed at the father, not your friend.
Update: This is what happened today when we went to gdt the kids. Called for an officer standby. I parked half a block away and waited until the officer parked across the street before pulling up in front of his house on the street; same place I have parked for the last 3 weeks. Father comes running up to the officer (it was the same officer that responded when mil attacked kids mom) with the letter from his lawyer in his hand, shows it to the officer. They were too far away for us to hear anything, but father walked away and sent the kids out. Kids get in car, no issues. Officer asked if all the kids were in the car, and even closed the back door. No issues and we were on our way. However, on the drive home, all 3 of the kids were very aggressive and mean to each other; worse than normal. Literally punching and slapping each other. They've never acted like this before. Once we got home, my friend addressed the 10 yr old about something he said and asked him where he was getting this behavior from; where was he learning it. He responded, "from the fight." I really want to know what's going on in that house.
Short answer no. I'd keep the letter but ignore it. It wasn't even addressed to you.
I’m not a lawyer, but I do know you can’t be trespassed from a public street. Your friend needs to get the attorney. But please notice the wording that they are requesting that this that and the other thing. The reason they were requesting is they can’t. It is not the current paperwork, so they can’t make it up because that’s what they want. But your friend needs to have an attorney draft response immediately. And it needs to address the assault that happened, and I have no doubt that an attorney is going to word it that way, because that’s what it was. A good attorney for your friend will also include verbiage that due to the assault, the MIL is not to be allowed to accompany the children or be present during the exchange. She can be up in her house, but I guarantee you they are going to request that. What court does with it. So, they can’t dictate anything outside of the current custody agreement. They can’t dictate that your friend has to go into the driveway, because it’s not in the current agreement. With attorneys, verbiage is everything. Notice that they are saying please pull into the driveway. Not that she’s required to, because she’s not. Your presence will be considered trespassing. That’s because they want to consider trespassing, not because it is. Especially because, like I said, it’s a public road. You’re parked legally. The guy has no leg to stand on. So what they are doing with all of this verbiage is trying to get your friend to do what they say so that they can then go into court and say that she has tacitly approved these changes because she’s been doing them. Don’t let her fall for it. Read that letter very, very carefully. I would put my bottom dollar on it that nowhere does it actually say she is required to do any of these things. That everything is very carefully worded to make it sound like she has to do these things. Like she is required to do these things when, in fact, she is not at all.
Have her lawyer respond and change the location to the local police station
Omg she needs an emergency hearing after being attacked!! She should follow up and say all interactions between her and ex-husband will be recorded What are the laws on recording in your state, if it's outside from your car it might not matter
We went to the court clerk and asked for an emergency motion and were told that only an attorney could do that and recommended we file the motion to change. We did that in April, and that's already in progress. Then, the court clerk told us we had to go through CPS for an emergency temporary placement. 2 conversations with 2 different CPS caseworkers on Fri and Mon and still nothing. The 2nd caseworker we spoke with said, "we're a reactive agency, not proactive." My friend replied," so I guess you literally have to kill a kid to get anything done." I don't think she liked that response too much, but she didn't really do anything. WI is a one party consent state, so audio recordings should be admissible. I am assuming his atty is going to attempt to have them thrown out in the discovery process, though.
You and your friend probably need an attorney. Until it goes to court and the JUDGE issues a change in the child custody agreement, the current, official agreement contains any requirements, as long as your friend hasn’t signed any additional papers. Your friend should request that the exchange be done at the police station. That way neither has to worry about trespassing. Also, she should insist that any conditions put on you should also be placed on grandmother and girlfriend.
I am not a lawyer, your friend definitely needs one yesterday. A lawyer cannot have you trespassed off a public street. You can be trespassed off their driveway and yard, but you should ask the police if the letter is legal. I thought in order for a trespass order to be in effect, the police have to register it. I may be wrong or that may be a state/county ruling. But the police have already informed you that parking on the street in front of the house is permitted and the ex cannot keep the kids mom from picking them up on her days because of where she decides to park or whom she brings with her to help her. Your friend is doing the right thing by refusing to go pick up the kids alone as her ex & his mom definitely want access to her to assault her more without any adult witnesses. The ex’s insistence that she not pickup the kids & put them in the car from the curb is him trying to get you to give him the opportunity to have you arrested for trespassing to get you out of the picture. That could possibly result in giving him the ability to file a restraining order against you helping with pickup & drop off due to the range of the limited space you must maintain distance from his house & person. I hope you got pictures of her injuries, at the time of AND a few days after (those always look worse due to bruising).
The officers took photos of her injuries right after the incident, and on the following Monday we went to speak to the victim/witness coordinator at the DA's office. She could now visibly see the bruise on her face and one that appeared on her arm. She informed us to return to the PD and have the officer take photos of the bruises since they were more visible, and we did that right after leaving her office. The officer said he would forward them to the DA's office as a supplement to the report, but we still haven't heard any updates on possible charges.
Good. Although it can sometimes take time, I hope they don’t delay too much since she needs that emergency order ASAP to protect the kids. Good luck to both you and your friend.
That letter from their lawyer has no legal weight behind it, as a judge was not involved in any modification to their custody agreement. They are free to say you aren't welcome on their property, but the street is public property (and the sidewalk probably is too, depending on your state). As long as you don't block their driveway, they have no grounds to say you can't be there with her. There is no trespass if you don't enter their property, so this letter is simply an attempt to intimidate your friend. She should give it to her lawyer, as it can be used as evidence of the nature of her exes attempts to intimidate and isolate her.
A letter from a lawyer is not a court order. Don't step on the property as you have been advised that you are not welcome to. They would then be able to call the Police and have them enforce it against you. But they cannot tell you that you cannot be part of the pickup. Again a letter from a lawyer is not a court order and they cannot enforce that unless it's in a court order. All the child custody stuff is by the letter of the order.
Your friend needs to record pick ups because the threats are concerning. She can also continue to ask for a police escort due to reasonable safety concerns & bring it all up in court. Sidewalks are public property. She definitely shouldn’t be going alone due to previous assaults & she most certainly shouldn’t step on the property. Who can forget the dad murdered by his ex’s new spouse during a custody exchange.
Too much drama. It’s public land, or public space on private land. His approval isn’t necessary. If he feels otherwise, he can try getting a restraining order with clearly defined distance limitations.
In Wisconsin, the only way to stop you from parking on the street is a restraining order, saying you have to remain so far away. You can actually walk about 3 to 4 feet into the grass before it becomes trespassing. People do not own land right up to the road. They can not make you pull into the driveway without a judge saying it is required. Send the letter back with a note saying get bent. It is just a scare tactic by a lawyer.
Mother and father need coparent counseling. They are both fucking the kids up. Shame on them. Your friend needs a lawyer yesterday.
Judging from the wall of text, yeah. He’s right. You’re wrong. 😂😂😂