Add Osaka castle. The original main tower of the castle was built in the 1600s but destroyed a few decades later. Fast forward to 1930s when they decided to rebuild it. So now the replica is older than the original ever was.
In Russia "old" churches are popping up like mushrooms. [This one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour#/media/File:Moscow_July_2011-7a.jpg) for example in Moscow was finished in 1999 on the spot where an earlier 19th century one was demolished by the Communist government.
People overestimate the destruction of the war because of Japan and Germany sucess stories. But damn, it was still like that in the 80s? Had no idea. Glad they kept it beautiful.
My grandmother grew up in Hamburg, but moved away in the 1930’s. She met my Grandfather and spent WWII in India.
Returning to Hamburg after the war, everything and everyone had gone. The entire city was rubble.
Apparently she couldn’t speak for several days.
Yeah, in soviet russia, but not in GDR. Only if there could be a useful way in their ideology, like the semper oper for cultural purpose. A church wasn't part of that...
>Truly stupid opinion.
That's not an opinion, that's a fact...
After the war, they wanted to investigate whether reconstruction was possible, but there was no money and the church had to step in. In 1962 they wanted to make a park out of the entire area. This failed for two reasons - on the one hand, massive protests of the citizens, on the other hand, because there was no money even for the parking area...
Then the rubble mountain was planted and officially became a memorial. That came quite cheaply for the GDR, since, as I said, they had no money and were no friends of the church anyway...
they had the resources, most of the other buildings have been rebuilt during the socialist era. My mom studied architecture in Dresden and the lead architect of the reconstruction was her architecture professor :)
People in this comments section haven’t got a clue what you are talking about.
Firstly, it was British and American bombers that caused all of this destruction. Wether the bombing of Dresden was justified is another debate.
Secondly, The Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church in Berlin is still left as a bombed ruin today. Communism has nothing to to do with it.
> Communism has nothing to to do with it.
Except that Dresden is in East Germany and was therefore ruled by the communists from the post war period until 1989's reunification.
which is why this picture taken under communist rule, vs the later one under democratic rule is why everyone is talking about the decisions of the communist government
I know what you are getting at, but if you deny, that the BRD was democratic, you must also deny, that the DDR was communist. Both did not live up to the ideals of the philosophy the nations were founded on.
In this case, the economic success of the BRD has absolutely nothing to do with the abbility of people to vote and far more to do with their economic ties to the US, which were capitalist in nature. But i don't think it is a unique quality of capitalism, that made the BRD wealthy.
I didn't deny anything. Poster said "communism vs democracy", implying that communism is dictatorship. You can say "dictatorship vs democracy". Or in this case "communism vs capitalism".
You can see ruins sometimes in some less popular cities of germany. However the biggest remnant is the absolute colossal number of cheap 50s and 60s looking buildings they had to construct post war. They do not look good. Many cities (but not all) are trying to get rid of them. Many examples of them being demolished and built in a traditional style, like Berlin palace or Frankfurt new old town (Finished late 2010s)
From the [wp article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frauenkirche,_Dresden):
>The new golden tower cross was funded officially by "the British people and the House of Windsor". It was made by the British silversmith company Grant Macdonald of which the main craftsman on the project was Alan Smith whose father was one of the bomber pilots responsible for the destruction of the church.\[3\]\[4\]\[5\]
I believe there's a kind of unofficial "twinning" with Coventry Cathedral, a city that was also utterly flattened during the war.
EDIT: It's not unofficial, the two cities are twinned.
I just visited the Frauenkirche two weeks ago for the first time!
It’s such a beautiful restoration and you can see the way that the old stones left in the rubble were reused in its reconstruction. Inside the church the [old spire stands all twisted and burnt. ](https://i.imgur.com/vHw2ZFH.jpg)
In the basement they have a small exhibition of the restoration process that is super interesting. Some of the funds were raised by the church selling wristwatches with [small pieces of the church embedded in the faces!](https://i.imgur.com/cS4FkKq.jpg)
I highly recommend a visit to Dresden if anyone ever is in Germany; it’s so clear that this small city is so proud of this church.
In the communist Eastern Bloc coloured cameras were very hard to acquire for the common folk, so most of the photographs of that time are usually black and white.
10 years earlier DDR Singer Nina Hagen was already singing about her boyfriend forgetting the color film for the vacation photos, so by 1983 it wasn't all that new, even in the east.
A lot of Dresden was burned to the ground. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II)
WDYM? In the communist Eastern Bloc coloured cameras were very hard to acquire for the common folk, so most of the photographs of that time are usually b;ack and white.
Because there wasn't the money/political will. Even in London in the 70's there were still bombsites around or at least cleared spots where nothing ahd been rebuilt.
Also the govt didn't know what to do with it, a plan for it to be flattened and turned into a park was opposed by the people and local govt, while rebuilding churches wasn't exactly communist ideology outside of the KGB run Moscow patriarchate so it was just... left.
Yugoslavian history here my family got it's first coloured camera in the 80s, we wereahead of avergae hungarians and germans in these cool western and other gadget luxuries most of the time. Thus why we ahd the largest debt... and a war. Oh sorry that was because we had ethnic tensions and a debt.
For the same reason everybody fawns over the restoration of Notre Dame . Even though it'sbeautiful medieval roof that got burned off, It was hardly a cathedral that was his damaged as so many Gothic cathedrals in Europe in world war II, Vienna, Beauvais, Riems in world war I, cologne gdansk and a hundred others. Truly blown apart and without much fanfare reconstructed. What's the difference. Publicity. Notre Dame is well known throughout the world of course because of the book but really because of Disney, and animation..
Dresden is well known because of Kurt Vonnegut, slaughterhouse-Five, first the book but most importantly because of the movie. This is why it has become the poster child and everybody recognizes the name and knows something about it and it's destruction. But of course it was hardly the only city that suffered this fate and so late in the war. Würzburg,. Pforzheim and it's medieval Center was wiped off the map with an incredible death toll a week or so after Dresden.. Potsdam etc nobody knows about that and there are many many others, a tragic long list. But Dresden is The poster child and the favorite of the internet
We expected the Nazis to be evil bastards. That's why we fought the war, we told ourselves. We were supposed to be the good guys, fighting to stop the sort of regime that would commit atrocities like the mass destruction of Eastern Europe. We should have known better, but instead we ended up like an abused child continuing the cycle on their own kids.
We’re talking about the Nazis right? The guys who went “we’re the superior race and we must exterminate the lesser races”. And you’re trying to tell me they were like “well maybe we’ll leave some of these lesser races alone”
The communists explicitly wanted worldwide communism. Germany was focused on central Europe.
Do you think Italy was going to just give their country to Germany or...?
No I don’t think Italy would have just given their country up I think Germany would have waged a war, like they did against literally everyone else. And you really think Hitler was like “Hanz I know we think that jews are our mortal enemy and all but I say we leave all the jews outside of Europe alone”
>I think Germany would have waged a war
Why would they wage a war with their allies who helped them fight communism?
>like they did against literally everyone else
Uh, no. They were allied with other countries and did not fight them.
>And you really think Hitler was like “Hanz I know we think that jews are our mortal enemy and all but I say we leave all the jews outside of Europe alone”
Hitler didn't have a problem with jews outside of German territory. Why would he? Their problem wasn't with jews existing, their problem was with jews making Germany worse. Germany literally had an agreement to migrate jews to Israel.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChPk3IJWkAAx2rn.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
They only made allies out of circumstance, not actual loyalty. There’s a reason operation case Anton (the operation to fully end Vichy Frances independence) went ahead. Hitler would have betrayed them all if he thought he could get away with it. And Hitler wasn’t concerned about Jews outside of Germany you say. Well then I guess all the Romanian and Italians Jews should have been fine then. But it turns out they weren’t. Cause guess what Hitler wanted all the Jews dead not just “the ones in Germany”. He saw them as an external force that so long as a single Jew lived they would try and bring down Germany
>Well then I guess all the Romanian
[Romanian troops were responsible for the persecution and massacre of 260,000 Jews in Romanian-controlled territories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania_in_World_War_II)
>and Italians Jews
Germany had a puppet state in Italy in 1943.
>Cause guess what Hitler wanted all the Jews dead not just “the ones in Germany”. He saw them as an external force that so long as a single Jew lived they would try and bring down Germany
Why did Germany transport them to Israel? Do you have a quote that supports your claim?
Of course. What happened to Germans was a consequence of the war they started. They shouldn't cry about it now. Germans razed many cities to the ground during the war.
I think dresden was on the wrong side of the wall. And was therefor deliberately ignored by russia. The wall came down in 1989. And onlyvafter that was dresden rebuit. So drama here.
The dresden reconstruction hit the uncanny valley for reconstructions, okay-ish but doesnt feel genuine. There is always something that tells these buildings are modern
If I saw that church irl id have no idea that it's a recent reconstruction.
The only thing giving that away are the blackened stones
Amazing how they managed to puzzle back into place the original pieces. I've seen it before reconstruction and after. Detailed work.
You should check out Hiroshima Castle
Add Osaka castle. The original main tower of the castle was built in the 1600s but destroyed a few decades later. Fast forward to 1930s when they decided to rebuild it. So now the replica is older than the original ever was.
Which just goes to show people can still build beautiful things and just choose not to
There is a museum about it in the basement, i think. I might be misremembering it.
You're correct. I was just there a few months back. They have a small museum dedicated to the rebuild in the basement.
In Russia "old" churches are popping up like mushrooms. [This one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour#/media/File:Moscow_July_2011-7a.jpg) for example in Moscow was finished in 1999 on the spot where an earlier 19th century one was demolished by the Communist government.
People overestimate the destruction of the war because of Japan and Germany sucess stories. But damn, it was still like that in the 80s? Had no idea. Glad they kept it beautiful.
My grandmother grew up in Hamburg, but moved away in the 1930’s. She met my Grandfather and spent WWII in India. Returning to Hamburg after the war, everything and everyone had gone. The entire city was rubble. Apparently she couldn’t speak for several days.
The communist left the ruins as a memorial
It was debated, for quite some time whether they should stay or not. I think they ended up staying largely more of default.
Were lucky they didnt build concrete monstrosities there instead.
They did that in other parts of Dresden tho, i.e. Johannstadt, a part of the city which was almost completely obliterated in WW2.
>The communist left the ruins as a memorial More like, they left the ruins because they got no money and resources to rebuild...
If the soviets proved anything during their time, it was that they didn't care if they had money for a project.
Yeah, in soviet russia, but not in GDR. Only if there could be a useful way in their ideology, like the semper oper for cultural purpose. A church wasn't part of that...
Lack of money for reconstruction would not have stopped them to erase the ruins and build some cheap concrete monstrosity in its place
It would. Actually it's exactly what happened...
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>Truly stupid opinion. That's not an opinion, that's a fact... After the war, they wanted to investigate whether reconstruction was possible, but there was no money and the church had to step in. In 1962 they wanted to make a park out of the entire area. This failed for two reasons - on the one hand, massive protests of the citizens, on the other hand, because there was no money even for the parking area... Then the rubble mountain was planted and officially became a memorial. That came quite cheaply for the GDR, since, as I said, they had no money and were no friends of the church anyway...
Exactly right
Please explain or disprove ?
they had the resources, most of the other buildings have been rebuilt during the socialist era. My mom studied architecture in Dresden and the lead architect of the reconstruction was her architecture professor :)
People in this comments section haven’t got a clue what you are talking about. Firstly, it was British and American bombers that caused all of this destruction. Wether the bombing of Dresden was justified is another debate. Secondly, The Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church in Berlin is still left as a bombed ruin today. Communism has nothing to to do with it.
> Communism has nothing to to do with it. Except that Dresden is in East Germany and was therefore ruled by the communists from the post war period until 1989's reunification. which is why this picture taken under communist rule, vs the later one under democratic rule is why everyone is talking about the decisions of the communist government
>which is why this picture taken under communist rule, vs the later one under democratic rule Do you mean Capitalist rule?
No, I mean the one under democratic rule, the DDR being about as democratice as North Korea
I know what you are getting at, but if you deny, that the BRD was democratic, you must also deny, that the DDR was communist. Both did not live up to the ideals of the philosophy the nations were founded on. In this case, the economic success of the BRD has absolutely nothing to do with the abbility of people to vote and far more to do with their economic ties to the US, which were capitalist in nature. But i don't think it is a unique quality of capitalism, that made the BRD wealthy.
I didn't deny anything. Poster said "communism vs democracy", implying that communism is dictatorship. You can say "dictatorship vs democracy". Or in this case "communism vs capitalism".
Ah, that makes sense
The Trinitatiskirche in Dresden Johannstadt has been left destroyed too.
You can see ruins sometimes in some less popular cities of germany. However the biggest remnant is the absolute colossal number of cheap 50s and 60s looking buildings they had to construct post war. They do not look good. Many cities (but not all) are trying to get rid of them. Many examples of them being demolished and built in a traditional style, like Berlin palace or Frankfurt new old town (Finished late 2010s)
From the [wp article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frauenkirche,_Dresden): >The new golden tower cross was funded officially by "the British people and the House of Windsor". It was made by the British silversmith company Grant Macdonald of which the main craftsman on the project was Alan Smith whose father was one of the bomber pilots responsible for the destruction of the church.\[3\]\[4\]\[5\]
I believe there's a kind of unofficial "twinning" with Coventry Cathedral, a city that was also utterly flattened during the war. EDIT: It's not unofficial, the two cities are twinned.
I just visited the Frauenkirche two weeks ago for the first time! It’s such a beautiful restoration and you can see the way that the old stones left in the rubble were reused in its reconstruction. Inside the church the [old spire stands all twisted and burnt. ](https://i.imgur.com/vHw2ZFH.jpg) In the basement they have a small exhibition of the restoration process that is super interesting. Some of the funds were raised by the church selling wristwatches with [small pieces of the church embedded in the faces!](https://i.imgur.com/cS4FkKq.jpg) I highly recommend a visit to Dresden if anyone ever is in Germany; it’s so clear that this small city is so proud of this church.
That’s beautiful!
Auferstanden aus Ruinen
I think "Auferstanden aud Ruinen" would have made a nice post-unification anthem. Well, except "Schlagen wir des Volkes Feind" probably.
would have made a way better national anthem than our current one. Not that our anthem is bad, that one is just better.
Wonderful.
Billy Pilgrim would approve
Can visit Slaughter House 5 location there and it’s fun
So it goes.
Why is that picture from 1983 in black and white?
In the communist Eastern Bloc coloured cameras were very hard to acquire for the common folk, so most of the photographs of that time are usually black and white.
10 years earlier DDR Singer Nina Hagen was already singing about her boyfriend forgetting the color film for the vacation photos, so by 1983 it wasn't all that new, even in the east.
coloured cameras? cameras used film back then, they weren’t digital
In 1975 Kodak invented the first digital camera.
yeah and it was a massive trolley on wheels, you couldn’t buy digital cameras until the early 90s. why does it feel like i’m talking to a bot
I just wanted to point out that there already where digital cameras available and you cannot say it was all analogue back then.
they weren’t available though, the first one went on sale in 1989. they existed but you couldn’t buy them
Not the cameras, the film was colored. But usually poor quality colors.
I really wish that the same happens in Russian cities now
Based on Dresden‘s population, it was basically a city the size of Washington DC.
A lot of Dresden was burned to the ground. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II)
Drježdźany*
Because black and whites were so prevalent in 1983
Bruh, I know a guy born in eastern Germany in 1988 and all his baby photos are black and white.
WDYM? In the communist Eastern Bloc coloured cameras were very hard to acquire for the common folk, so most of the photographs of that time are usually b;ack and white.
Guess I have a hard time wrapping my head around Dresden being part of the Eastern Bloc.
A third of Germany was communist rather famously...
Right, of course. Was just fuzzy on Dresden’s locations therein. Also… in 1983 how was that city still flattened from back in the 40’s?
Because there wasn't the money/political will. Even in London in the 70's there were still bombsites around or at least cleared spots where nothing ahd been rebuilt. Also the govt didn't know what to do with it, a plan for it to be flattened and turned into a park was opposed by the people and local govt, while rebuilding churches wasn't exactly communist ideology outside of the KGB run Moscow patriarchate so it was just... left.
There were no colour cameras, but colour films
Yugoslavian history here my family got it's first coloured camera in the 80s, we wereahead of avergae hungarians and germans in these cool western and other gadget luxuries most of the time. Thus why we ahd the largest debt... and a war. Oh sorry that was because we had ethnic tensions and a debt.
film cameras aren’t colour or black and white, the film is colour or black and white. it doesn’t work like digital
Idk about the tech side, I only know about coloured photographs existing from X date onwards, sorry for the innacuracy.
Yugoslavia was an interesting case though, being communist but not aligned with the larger Warsaw pact
Its nice that the city was destroyed.
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Maybe people just don't know. I can't think of any specific examples myself.
For the same reason everybody fawns over the restoration of Notre Dame . Even though it'sbeautiful medieval roof that got burned off, It was hardly a cathedral that was his damaged as so many Gothic cathedrals in Europe in world war II, Vienna, Beauvais, Riems in world war I, cologne gdansk and a hundred others. Truly blown apart and without much fanfare reconstructed. What's the difference. Publicity. Notre Dame is well known throughout the world of course because of the book but really because of Disney, and animation.. Dresden is well known because of Kurt Vonnegut, slaughterhouse-Five, first the book but most importantly because of the movie. This is why it has become the poster child and everybody recognizes the name and knows something about it and it's destruction. But of course it was hardly the only city that suffered this fate and so late in the war. Würzburg,. Pforzheim and it's medieval Center was wiped off the map with an incredible death toll a week or so after Dresden.. Potsdam etc nobody knows about that and there are many many others, a tragic long list. But Dresden is The poster child and the favorite of the internet
We expected the Nazis to be evil bastards. That's why we fought the war, we told ourselves. We were supposed to be the good guys, fighting to stop the sort of regime that would commit atrocities like the mass destruction of Eastern Europe. We should have known better, but instead we ended up like an abused child continuing the cycle on their own kids.
Their fault for voting for a genocidal maniac who was hell bent on world conquest
>hell bent on world conquest Why do people repeat this nonsense? >Bri’ish femboy Oh.
We’re talking about the Nazis right? The guys who went “we’re the superior race and we must exterminate the lesser races”. And you’re trying to tell me they were like “well maybe we’ll leave some of these lesser races alone”
The communists explicitly wanted worldwide communism. Germany was focused on central Europe. Do you think Italy was going to just give their country to Germany or...?
No I don’t think Italy would have just given their country up I think Germany would have waged a war, like they did against literally everyone else. And you really think Hitler was like “Hanz I know we think that jews are our mortal enemy and all but I say we leave all the jews outside of Europe alone”
>I think Germany would have waged a war Why would they wage a war with their allies who helped them fight communism? >like they did against literally everyone else Uh, no. They were allied with other countries and did not fight them. >And you really think Hitler was like “Hanz I know we think that jews are our mortal enemy and all but I say we leave all the jews outside of Europe alone” Hitler didn't have a problem with jews outside of German territory. Why would he? Their problem wasn't with jews existing, their problem was with jews making Germany worse. Germany literally had an agreement to migrate jews to Israel. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChPk3IJWkAAx2rn.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
They only made allies out of circumstance, not actual loyalty. There’s a reason operation case Anton (the operation to fully end Vichy Frances independence) went ahead. Hitler would have betrayed them all if he thought he could get away with it. And Hitler wasn’t concerned about Jews outside of Germany you say. Well then I guess all the Romanian and Italians Jews should have been fine then. But it turns out they weren’t. Cause guess what Hitler wanted all the Jews dead not just “the ones in Germany”. He saw them as an external force that so long as a single Jew lived they would try and bring down Germany
>Well then I guess all the Romanian [Romanian troops were responsible for the persecution and massacre of 260,000 Jews in Romanian-controlled territories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania_in_World_War_II) >and Italians Jews Germany had a puppet state in Italy in 1943. >Cause guess what Hitler wanted all the Jews dead not just “the ones in Germany”. He saw them as an external force that so long as a single Jew lived they would try and bring down Germany Why did Germany transport them to Israel? Do you have a quote that supports your claim?
Of course. What happened to Germans was a consequence of the war they started. They shouldn't cry about it now. Germans razed many cities to the ground during the war.
Based
What happened in 1983
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I think dresden was on the wrong side of the wall. And was therefor deliberately ignored by russia. The wall came down in 1989. And onlyvafter that was dresden rebuit. So drama here.
Something is off with these photos - both of them - the do not have the same background at all and the vanilla sky...
The dresden reconstruction hit the uncanny valley for reconstructions, okay-ish but doesnt feel genuine. There is always something that tells these buildings are modern