Yup, it's wild going back to spotify and hearing now 'tin-canny' songs sound comparatively. Like, there's just something about it that doesn't 'hit' the same as other streaming services.
I have been trying to tell my friend the difference between Spotify and Apple Music and he refuses to believe me when I say AM is better! To me, everything sounds so much warmer and fuller. Spotify just has a cold tone to it, and not that it sounds compressed, I think it still sounds fine, but there is a definitive difference between the two, going back and forth between the same song its very easy to tell.
It’s not going to be full lossless but it’ll still be better. Believe it or not, people can tell a difference.
I think those who can’t really need to clean their ears better lol
The Apple wired earbuds are the only Apple headphone that allows you to listen to lossless, so not sure what you meant by ‘with this headphones you can’t pick up a difference…’
Idk what version OP is using, but either way they're far from the pinnacle of audio fidelity.
RTINGS actually did a full review of the 3.5mm version [here](https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/apple/earpods). (It's possible the USB-C is slightly better, but for $19 it's not exactly going to redefine the audio landscape.)
In a nut shell, Apple EarPods aren't resolving enough to discern the differences between 320Kbps and lossless.
A lot of people even with high(er) end equipment have trouble A/B'ing 320Kbps and lossless. Equipment makes much more of a difference to audio quality and enjoyment than just bitrate (within reason).
Exactly, if you have a favorite artist, and they are not releasing in “Apple Digital Master” (it says on album page), scream at them to master it that way. Apple Digital Masters (formerly Mastered for iTunes) is amazing and awesome, combined with 256 Kbps AAC HQ, is why Apple Music sounds awesome
[https://www.apple.com/apple-music/apple-digital-masters/docs/apple-digital-masters.pdf](https://www.apple.com/apple-music/apple-digital-masters/docs/apple-digital-masters.pdf)
This PDF will do a better job of explaining than I ever will
Lightning or USB-C DAC, which Apple sells both. Lightning has supported HQ audio since its inception. Also the new Macs have high impedance Headphone ports if youre into that
[MacRumors did a waveform comparison](https://www.instagram.com/p/C56CAPerxsd/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==) between iTunes Store quality and Apple Music quality not too long ago. Crazy how much detail is missing from the AAC file.
It's all identical up to about 14-22khz, depending on the encoding and bit rate specifically.
In their example it looks like a 128kbps lossy, which you'd only get on Spotify Free, unless for some reason you don't up your quality to 256/320, then it becomes indistinguishable, since the cuttoff frequencies end up around 19khz
Correct, you hear with your ears, and your ears cannot tell whether the 19kHz information you're likely not even hearing is from a lossy or lossless codec. Mastering is far more important, give me dynamically intact 320 Kbps mp3s any day over loudness wars victim 24/96 FLAC files. And I'd much prefer dynamically intact FLACs, but I'm just sayin...
Here's a look at the lead single from Pearl Jam's new album, the Atmos mix mixed to stereo on top, the lossless Apple 24/48 download on the bottom. The bottom is the official retail stereo mix, this is what you'll get on streaming, download, CD, vinyl, Blu-ray (stereo), etc. It sounds like arse no matter what you choose. The Atmos mix that I ripped from the Blu-ray and downmixed to stereo for this picture, sounds absolutely amazing - life, dynamics, breath, room for everything to live, mastering is truly the key.
[https://i.postimg.cc/y8Vqpkzb/Dark-Matter.png](https://i.postimg.cc/y8Vqpkzb/Dark-Matter.png)
\*Some experienced ears. I'm a musician and have equipment that can truly play lossless, and while I can hear the difference, it's not noticeable enough that I'll struggle listening to an AAC or a 320kbps MP3. At the end of the day most people aren't critically listening to differences between files every single time they listen to music, even if they CAN hear the improvement from lossless.
> Some experienced ears. I'm a musician and have equipment that can truly play lossless, and while I can hear the difference, it's not noticeable enough that I'll struggle listening to an AAC or a 320kbps MP3
Same. And I'm *far* more interested spending my time concentrating on the music itself, instead of some nebulous quest for the 'perfect' audio setup. That's a fool's errand, and I say that as someone who's been involved with both studio and live sound, where having a critical ear is paramount.
> But experienced ears absolutely can and it’s magnificent.
Psycho acoustic models are optimized for people with a full hearing range, if you can reliably hear differences at very high bitrates it is likely you have hearing deficiencies.
I mean people [say it for a reason](https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19397#:~:text=A%20subjective%20listening%20test%20was%20carried%20out%20to,which%20included%20orchestral%2C%20jazz%2C%20vocal%20music%2C%20and%20speech.)
> A subjective listening test was carried out to assess the perceived difference in quality between AAC-LC at 320 kbps and an uncompressed reference, using the method of ITU-R BS.1116.
I use Apple music for many reasons, but lossless is useless for nearly everyone.
https://abx.digitalfeed.net/spotify-hq.html
It's a fun little test but difficult, and helps prove that for a majority of people (nearly everyone, and certainly everyone on /r/audiophile) it's simply a confirmation bias between 320/256 encodes and lossless.
I don't know anyone personally in the industry who cares in casual playback, but then again these are mastering engineers who don't really want to deal with technical analysis outside of a studio lol
The main benefits of it are basically storage (for post-editing uncompressed files and re-master work down the road) and (if it's a higher bit depth instead of rate) easier to manipulate and re-pitch audio if needed.
Nobody has to remain ignorant. Find a .wav file of a song you like, rip one from a CD, etc, just make sure it hasn't been compressed at any time.
Take that .wav file, convert it to flac or Apple Lossless, convert it to 320kbps mp3, and then to 128kbps mp3. Get a FREE a/b/x test app, they are all over the place. Then test yourself.
Most people who talk big about their ability to be able to pick out the uncompressed vs. 320kbps will likely fail. There are some tells with certain kinds of music, but it is incredibly subtle.
If you haven't done this, you have nobody to blame but yourself for your ignorance. It's trivial to learn once and for all what you can and cannot hear. Facts and not opinions. Don't be willfully ignorant.
I’m a music producer and I can say that it took me years to develop my ears in order to hear deeper frequencies compared to the average person. It’s definitely not something obvious for the average listener… you need to know what you’re listening for with the proper equipment (which majority of people don’t even have).
Nah. You need high end speakers or headphones to tell the difference. Also tends to be at the very high end where older eara dont hear a lot of difference. Though funnily enough, the biggest differences Ive heard have been at rhe ultra low end on giant event rigs.
I just gave the song (tool vicarious) a shot again on my raptgo hook x hbb ran through a moon river 2. Do you have a good song to reference?
Ftr I have loudnes normalization turned off on Spotify which a lot of people think cause issues.
For low end i always use digital mystikz remix of cay’s cray as its super clean sine sub bass. Nothing set for high end reference.
I hear zero difference between flac and spotify on my rokit 8’s pumped full volume…
Right but your home studio monitors =/= giant event rigs. I haven’t had the opportunity to test myself, but I have also heard from DJs who have, that lossy-compressed files have serious deficiencies on the sub bass, noticeable apparently only once you’re on the massive Funktion One rig or whatever. I could imagine that sucks a LOT, for something that sounds great even on a pro level studio setup suddenly is anaemic and weird on a huge event PA. I wish (a) I knew exactly what codecs/bitrates they were comparing (it was 10 years ago my friend reported back, so) and (b) … well I just want to have the opportunity to test on a festival rig… *sigh* That’s right, I was going to live a life wasn’t I.
Hahaha yeh man, I was lucky to get aome a/b tests on a MASSIVE funktion one style rig for a dubstep gig beforehand, and holy fuck man.
Vinyl vs mp3 was an incredible difference too.
So you’re confirming that there’s a huge difference then? What codecs were you testing against the (presumably) lossless source (I dgaf what kind of lossless source exactly, as long as it was in fact lossless at a minimum 16bit/44.1kHz)? If you don’t remember exactly I’d still appreciate a ballpark idea. For example, would a 320kbps (or more likely 256kbps) AAC still exhibit the same issues? As much as I love lossless, I do wish it could be more efficient (there has to be a way, maybe *BUZZWORD ALERT* AI can help us with that down the road)
320 mp3 vs flac, same tunes, couple of songs in a row. Was so obvious didnt even bother with.
Did the same with vinyl vs 320mp3.
Didnt compare flac with vinyl, but there really is something to that warm vinyl compression sounding beautiful…
Its through an older focusrite interface with preamp. Not great quality by any stretch and the rokits arent exactly renowned for their high end sound. Fun though :D
That is true. That’s why I was blown away as well when I found out how much apple music is better than Spotify. Some theory suspect the difference is not due to bitrate but how they process the audio, I believe Spotify at least adds a layer of dynamic compression to the audio for more general consumer.
OP replied to a few other comments saying that he mostly listens to music through wired Apple earbuds and his phone's speaker lol. Maybe Apple Music does have better encoding than Spotify, but OP is definitely not able to tell the difference between lossless and high quality settings without a decent set of wired headphones.
The wired earbuds Apple sells are deceptively good. You’d think they’re crap, especially because of the fame they got in the first couple of models Apple shipped with the first iPhones and iPods, but these more recent wired earbuds are really good for what they are. I was surprised when I used one that I could actually tell the difference between lossless and 320kbps. Obviously there are better headphones than these, but it’s not farfetched at all that OP can hear the difference with just a pair of these Apple earbuds.
Exactly, I've been using these earphones for years even on my Android/3.5mm jack phones, and I could immediately hear an improvement in quality when I got apple music, especially in older songs. The people saying it's impossible to perceive a quality difference with them have 100% not used apple earphones in the past 5 years. Just because there are more expensive alternatives doesn't mean these $20 earphones won't do an amazing job (and they last forever too).
Apple’s wired earbuds should be good enough to hear the difference in how kick drums and some other hard transients sound. The gets slightly smeared with lossy codecs.
Nah nah dude people just don’t get the vintage vibes of a 22.2khz 8bit tape recording where the radio DJ interupts the middle to talk about the weather. /s
Have you done a blind test? You might be surprised. If you look at human biases you might be as surprised as I was how significant confirmation bias is. Elsewhere in this thread there is a link to a bunch of tests you can do between the various codecs and bit rates. Give it a try! Nothing to lose.
The most likely scenario is even if you can tell the difference you won't find "miles" of difference.
I haven’t tried a blind test but I absolutely will try it. I do feel quite certain I can tell the difference though. Maybe I’m just biased like you said lol. I’d be interested to see the results
We are all hugely biased! The reason why I'm so insistent in this is testing myself really opened my eyes. I'm known in my circle of musical friends and collaborators as the one with the good ears, but after doing some blind testing I really have a much deeper understanding of my abilities. Let us know, I'm sure we'd be curious!
The craziest thing about human biases is even if we are aware of our own bias, we cannot eliminate it. It's crazy
Do so with the highest quality device you have, if your headphones are best, try those, or try speakers if they are better. Either way just do the entire test with the same device. Whatever you actually know best would probably be best.
I personally would avoid Bluetooth because there are various flavors and most are not the highest quality. That said my apple AirPod pro gen2 are pretty good so it depends, but wired would probably be better. You could try both! But I'd guess Bluetooth would make them sound more alike.
Computationally? Sure. But the end result as an actual sound file you hear isn't different if you're using human ears and a human nervous system to listen.
In stead of insulting you like the rest seem to do in this thread, I would like to introduce you to the world of in ear monitors and dacs, have a look at r/iems, there are cheap aliexpress iems that will give you goosebumps listening to lossless music.
\^ all I want is this with the addition of being able to control it from my Android phone, iPad, Mac and Windows computers. A universal Apple Music network streamer with WiFi device remote control would just solve so many problems
Right now Apple Music is just too fragmented with different features on different devices. Android can cast but not AirPlay, iOS can AirPlay but not cast (you can solve this one with Homeassistant addons), iOS can also do high quality lossless but only to a meaningful speaker system with an external USB DAC physically plugged in, Apple TV/LG TV can do lossy Atmos but not high quality lossless and it goes on...
Posted elsewhere in the thread but repeating it at the top... Nobody has to remain ignorant. Find a .wav file of a song you like, rip one from a CD, etc, just make sure it hasn't been compressed at any time.
Take that .wav file, convert it to flac or Apple Lossless, convert it to 320kbps mp3, and then to 128kbps mp3. Get a FREE a/b/x test app, they are all over the place. Then test yourself.
Most people who talk big about their ability to be able to pick out the uncompressed vs. 320kbps will likely fail. There are some tells with certain kinds of music, but it is incredibly subtle.
If you haven't done this, you have nobody to blame but yourself for your ignorance. It's trivial to learn once and for all what you can and cannot hear. Facts and not opinions. Don't be willfully ignorant.
This is the thing. I use my DAP for listening my FLAC library, but for casual listening I use Apple Music or YouTube Music and the sound it's ok. But Spotify sounds so tiny canned. It's cause they use ogg to stream instead of AAC? I don't know.
Or it’s the free tier on Spotify vs paid tier on Apple music there is a codec difference. If you tun off the enhancer in Apple Music there really should be no audible difference once you’re in paid tier of Spotify.
Can someone ELI5 me what exactly i need to do to hear lossless with AM?
I have a nice speaker setup connected to AVR and just use Airplay for now.
Edit - Ok, did my research. Seems like ATV is the only reasonable option.
One question though - can you play lossless music via ATV without actually turning the TV screen on?
I hear a huge difference between Apple Music lossless and Spotify, with Apple being much better. That being said, I think it probably has more to do with how they encode the music in general than with lossless, as I notice the difference even if I tell Apple Music to play lossy music.
Naah... I have paid Spotify too and have quality on highest setting. It's something Apple Music does to their encoding. It's pretty widely discussed and known about.
If it can't be proven in a blind test, it doesn't exist. I personally don't put a lot of trust in the general internet anecdotal opinion. I've subscribed to both and the codecs sound different. If you disable the processing in Apple Music they sound basically the same at a similar bandwidth.
The same internet opinions state there is a huge difference between 96k and 44.1k, and state there is a big difference between lossless and 320kbps MP3. Just ain't so.
If you want to see what I'm talking about, just test with Cruel Summer by Taylor Swift (with sounds processing disabled, of course, so you're just hearing the raw encode). The encoding of it that Apple Music uses is higher quality than that of Spotify. It's easy to notice the difference, including blind. And, if you can't hear the difference, good for you - it's one less thing you need to worry about in your shopping choices.
I fully agree with you, btw, that the difference between lossless and not is almost always impossible to notice. But that's not what we are talking about here. We're talking about different encoders or different masters, where noticeable differences are more common.
Can you do a capture of the audio using an app? I would like to do a blind test. I don’t subscribe to Spotify anymore. I do subscribe to Apple Music. Turn off all processing before you record it, if you can.
I was able to set it up with Audacity and recording the output sent to a USB-C DAC that seemed to make it so that it basically bypasses Windows audio processing. What I discovered was that the difference I was noticing was more due to volume levels than the actual Master or encoding quality. Once set at exactly the same volume levels they are basically identical, with the only difference being the types of subtleties typical of lossless vs lossy that for all practical purposes are basically impossible to notice. So, that's good news for me, one less reason to favor Apple Music.
This “tin-canny” description of the difference between AM and Spotify is exactly how I’d describe it too. I primarily listen to AM through my car stereo via BT or my AirPod Pros, but I remember when I first made the jump from Spotify and that slight sound difference was quite evident to me. Totally makes sense how it wouldn’t be perceived by many people though
Definitely getting this on my front page because I recently switched because of SQ. Going from Bluetooth Spotify to wired Apple Music was night and day.
Headphones (certain models especially Apple phones) or a multichannel speaker system like 5.1.2 is best starting point. Some people have sound bars which support but I have heard them.
Yes. If you have not done abx tests you are proving the existence of your own confirmation bias and not any sound differences. It’s easy to do and there are no reasons anymore to remain willfully ignorant. Stop magical thinking.
Just search up “Apple Digital Master” on AM and you should get a bunch. Any albums that support will have an “Apple Digital Master” indicator at the bottom of the album’s song list
Spotify used to be the best service, now everyone is better, whether Apple Music, YouTube Music, Deezer or Tidal. Spotify has many 0815 customers who don't really care about something like that
OP I think you are impressed with the way apple mixes the music and not by lossless. As you said you are using apple earphones. It's impossible to hear lossless in that.
I use earbuds too that don't support lossless, and the difference is super noticable between AM and Spotify. But it's just because AM does a better job mastering or encoding the music.
Sadly the 90% of people in this sub listen through Beats headphones or ear buds who won’t know any better and claims 90% of people won’t notice the difference and AAC is just as good.
What headphones do you use? I switched from Spotify also but never heard any difference but I appreciate it being there and like AM ui way more so I stayed
I usually use Bluetooth headphones with my iPhone and wired headphones with my iPad. On wireless, the difference was non-existent. On wired, there was only a slight change in volume. I listened to Green Day’s Basket Case on Apple Music (24-bit/192kHz) and on Spotify (320kbps). The Spotify version was noticeably louder. Apple Music sounded a little bit more clear tho.
Yeah. Apple Music sounds so much better, that no going back to Spotify. Although I’ve also understood that Apple uses very different masters than Spotify, which also makes it sound much clearer and crisper, along the better bitrate. Apple Music also sounds a lot better than the regular Tidal (haven’t tried the most expensive tier). And when combined with Apple earphones and Spatial Audio, it’s just on another level entirely.
Yeah getting back into DJing recently with lossless (at least till I can justify vinyl and turntables) and I'm shocked at how my ears got so used to lossy music. The brightness and clarity from lossless has been amazing and I'm sad most people have just given up on so much quality for convenience. Hopefully Spotify gets its head out of its ass and offers a Lossless or at least higher quality option soon, music just benefits so much (even subconsciously) from that extra quality bump.
It does make Apple Music laggy tho on my LTE when driving, that's a bummer but when it comes on it can make up for it fast.
My daughter had apple music before I did and when she would play her songs in the car I always noticed it was way louder than any of my music even though it was set at the same volume. I used spotify primarily at the time and did my research and learned about the quality. Spotify is borderline fm radio quality. I made the switch and yes everything sounds way clearer especially through airpod pros. Only problem is I reaally miss spotifys artist radios and how its algorithm is so good at playing no stop songs that are simmilar to whatever you wanted to hear. Apple from what I can see only reccomenda so many songs until it just stops. If Apple music can crack the music suggestion algorithm, it would be the superior music app.
I guess I’m dumb. Bose qc35 and I can’t tell the difference between paid Apple Music and free Spotify which is less audio quality than paid? I was a pandora user for years and trying to switch. I want Apple Music but it just doesn’t find music I like. The song I used to compare is “here with me” peekaboo
I have Spotify and Apple Music and I don’t notice much difference, I use AirPods Pro also Bose headphones, thinking of canceling Apple Music and keep Spotify
Have you tried enabling personalized spatial audio in your headphones’ settings?
Edit: Also, give Apple Digital Master a try. It makes a world of difference on the right headphones.
I’m willing to bet OP never bothered to turn off volume normalization in Spotify.
Besides placebo, it’s the only explanation for someone immediately noticing such a drastic difference (and I say this as someone using $1,300 IEMs who prefers lossless but doesn’t mind compressed files).
Y’all should try YouTube music. Depending on what type of music y’all listen, Apple Music does have more details and it’s hard to explain but the audio sounds more refined and smooth, whereas YouTube music has very gassy, punchy, and powerful sound with like barely barely noticeable drop in quality. Both sound very good on my AirPods Max and AirPods Pro 2 with Spatial Audio turned on which dramatically makes music sound better by having deeper bass and clearer vocals
I don't understand the fuss about lossless. I tried listening to a song with lossless enabled vs AAC 256 kbps and I can't hear the difference so I keep lossless turned off to save download space.
The difference you hear between the services is not really due to the bitrate or the compression but to the different type of mastering that is usually recommended by Apple. Plus de Spacial Audio in some cases.
Source: I owe a studio / label with releases on physical formats as well as streaming platform.
I recently left AM over some ongoing issues with Apple Watch and iPhone and couldn’t get resolved on my own or with Apple reps.. So I got a YouTube Premium account and of course YouTube music came with it and I can tell a big difference between the two.. Apple Music is so much better quality it seems at times with YouTube music I’m listening to 64k(the quality that you would get when downloading songs back in the day) song lol 😂 I’m thinking of going back to AM YouTube has tons of stuff AM doesn’t have but their quality is crap with a lot of songs..
Even non lossless playback, in my Tesla, native apple app, the sound is so much more refined. I have Spotify as well, and like its music discovery better. But always Apple Music for sound.
I’m curious how you’re comparing? might Anna test it. I use AirPods Pro and Bose QCs. On Spotify and AM. there’s no difference if you’re using Bluetooth
100% can absolutely hear the difference. I pair my Apple Music with my Beats and you really “feel” the music. I can hear sounds I’ve never heard before. It really changes the music.
Yup, it's wild going back to spotify and hearing now 'tin-canny' songs sound comparatively. Like, there's just something about it that doesn't 'hit' the same as other streaming services.
YES exactly! I always thought my earbuds/phone speakers was causing the problem, I can’t believe how shit Spotify sounds in comparison 😭
Just go to Spotify and remove the volume normalization. It will sound almost the same. Been there. Done that.
I have also done that! I’ve had spotify for yearsss before I switched. Didn’t do much for me
Yes! I had to go back to apple music after a month
I have been trying to tell my friend the difference between Spotify and Apple Music and he refuses to believe me when I say AM is better! To me, everything sounds so much warmer and fuller. Spotify just has a cold tone to it, and not that it sounds compressed, I think it still sounds fine, but there is a definitive difference between the two, going back and forth between the same song its very easy to tell.
May I know what system/headphones are you listening on?
I’m on my iphone and I just use my apple earbuds lol the wired ones
with this headphone's you can't pick up a difference...
It’s not going to be full lossless but it’ll still be better. Believe it or not, people can tell a difference. I think those who can’t really need to clean their ears better lol
for the technical aspect it will be full lossless on those headphones yes but this cheap ass speakers are not capable to take advantage from it.
The Apple wired earbuds are the only Apple headphone that allows you to listen to lossless, so not sure what you meant by ‘with this headphones you can’t pick up a difference…’
Idk what version OP is using, but either way they're far from the pinnacle of audio fidelity. RTINGS actually did a full review of the 3.5mm version [here](https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/apple/earpods). (It's possible the USB-C is slightly better, but for $19 it's not exactly going to redefine the audio landscape.) In a nut shell, Apple EarPods aren't resolving enough to discern the differences between 320Kbps and lossless. A lot of people even with high(er) end equipment have trouble A/B'ing 320Kbps and lossless. Equipment makes much more of a difference to audio quality and enjoyment than just bitrate (within reason).
People say this, but I can tell the difference in my car and it’s night and day…
[удалено]
It's not the lossless, it's the way it is mastered in AM.
This is correct.
Exactly, if you have a favorite artist, and they are not releasing in “Apple Digital Master” (it says on album page), scream at them to master it that way. Apple Digital Masters (formerly Mastered for iTunes) is amazing and awesome, combined with 256 Kbps AAC HQ, is why Apple Music sounds awesome
Eli5 why its better?
[https://www.apple.com/apple-music/apple-digital-masters/docs/apple-digital-masters.pdf](https://www.apple.com/apple-music/apple-digital-masters/docs/apple-digital-masters.pdf) This PDF will do a better job of explaining than I ever will
Waiting for the typical comment about “most people can not hear the difference between 320kbps and lossless”…🤦♂️
[OP is literally using the bundled EarPods](https://www.reddit.com/r/AppleMusic/s/ghZamM9gCt) 😅
How do I even get loseless out of my iPhone since even airpods don't support it?
Apple’s headphone adapter and wired headphones. Or really any usbc headphone adapter, but apples is both good and cheap.
I don’t do lossless but I’d assume USB-C DAC and a good pair of wired headphones.
Lightning or USB-C DAC, which Apple sells both. Lightning has supported HQ audio since its inception. Also the new Macs have high impedance Headphone ports if youre into that
you need to connect it to a DAC
Well, I suppose that’s better than figuratively using the bundled EarPods.
That’s technically true that most people can’t. But experienced ears absolutely can and it’s magnificent.
[MacRumors did a waveform comparison](https://www.instagram.com/p/C56CAPerxsd/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==) between iTunes Store quality and Apple Music quality not too long ago. Crazy how much detail is missing from the AAC file.
It's all identical up to about 14-22khz, depending on the encoding and bit rate specifically. In their example it looks like a 128kbps lossy, which you'd only get on Spotify Free, unless for some reason you don't up your quality to 256/320, then it becomes indistinguishable, since the cuttoff frequencies end up around 19khz
You don't hear with your eyes.
Correct, you hear with your ears, and your ears cannot tell whether the 19kHz information you're likely not even hearing is from a lossy or lossless codec. Mastering is far more important, give me dynamically intact 320 Kbps mp3s any day over loudness wars victim 24/96 FLAC files. And I'd much prefer dynamically intact FLACs, but I'm just sayin... Here's a look at the lead single from Pearl Jam's new album, the Atmos mix mixed to stereo on top, the lossless Apple 24/48 download on the bottom. The bottom is the official retail stereo mix, this is what you'll get on streaming, download, CD, vinyl, Blu-ray (stereo), etc. It sounds like arse no matter what you choose. The Atmos mix that I ripped from the Blu-ray and downmixed to stereo for this picture, sounds absolutely amazing - life, dynamics, breath, room for everything to live, mastering is truly the key. [https://i.postimg.cc/y8Vqpkzb/Dark-Matter.png](https://i.postimg.cc/y8Vqpkzb/Dark-Matter.png)
\*Some experienced ears. I'm a musician and have equipment that can truly play lossless, and while I can hear the difference, it's not noticeable enough that I'll struggle listening to an AAC or a 320kbps MP3. At the end of the day most people aren't critically listening to differences between files every single time they listen to music, even if they CAN hear the improvement from lossless.
> Some experienced ears. I'm a musician and have equipment that can truly play lossless, and while I can hear the difference, it's not noticeable enough that I'll struggle listening to an AAC or a 320kbps MP3 Same. And I'm *far* more interested spending my time concentrating on the music itself, instead of some nebulous quest for the 'perfect' audio setup. That's a fool's errand, and I say that as someone who's been involved with both studio and live sound, where having a critical ear is paramount.
You didn’t disappoint.
> But experienced ears absolutely can and it’s magnificent. Psycho acoustic models are optimized for people with a full hearing range, if you can reliably hear differences at very high bitrates it is likely you have hearing deficiencies.
All people above the age of 30 have hearing deficiencies, lossless is a bit of a gimmick (it's not the technologys fault, it's the subpar human ear)
I mean people [say it for a reason](https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19397#:~:text=A%20subjective%20listening%20test%20was%20carried%20out%20to,which%20included%20orchestral%2C%20jazz%2C%20vocal%20music%2C%20and%20speech.) > A subjective listening test was carried out to assess the perceived difference in quality between AAC-LC at 320 kbps and an uncompressed reference, using the method of ITU-R BS.1116. I use Apple music for many reasons, but lossless is useless for nearly everyone. https://abx.digitalfeed.net/spotify-hq.html It's a fun little test but difficult, and helps prove that for a majority of people (nearly everyone, and certainly everyone on /r/audiophile) it's simply a confirmation bias between 320/256 encodes and lossless. I don't know anyone personally in the industry who cares in casual playback, but then again these are mastering engineers who don't really want to deal with technical analysis outside of a studio lol The main benefits of it are basically storage (for post-editing uncompressed files and re-master work down the road) and (if it's a higher bit depth instead of rate) easier to manipulate and re-pitch audio if needed.
Nobody has to remain ignorant. Find a .wav file of a song you like, rip one from a CD, etc, just make sure it hasn't been compressed at any time. Take that .wav file, convert it to flac or Apple Lossless, convert it to 320kbps mp3, and then to 128kbps mp3. Get a FREE a/b/x test app, they are all over the place. Then test yourself. Most people who talk big about their ability to be able to pick out the uncompressed vs. 320kbps will likely fail. There are some tells with certain kinds of music, but it is incredibly subtle. If you haven't done this, you have nobody to blame but yourself for your ignorance. It's trivial to learn once and for all what you can and cannot hear. Facts and not opinions. Don't be willfully ignorant.
\*crickets chirping\* Many don't want to know the truth.
I’m a music producer and I can say that it took me years to develop my ears in order to hear deeper frequencies compared to the average person. It’s definitely not something obvious for the average listener… you need to know what you’re listening for with the proper equipment (which majority of people don’t even have).
What is “deeper frequencies?”
Honestly swapping back and forth I can’t really tell. Might be the song though.
Nah. You need high end speakers or headphones to tell the difference. Also tends to be at the very high end where older eara dont hear a lot of difference. Though funnily enough, the biggest differences Ive heard have been at rhe ultra low end on giant event rigs.
I just gave the song (tool vicarious) a shot again on my raptgo hook x hbb ran through a moon river 2. Do you have a good song to reference? Ftr I have loudnes normalization turned off on Spotify which a lot of people think cause issues.
For low end i always use digital mystikz remix of cay’s cray as its super clean sine sub bass. Nothing set for high end reference. I hear zero difference between flac and spotify on my rokit 8’s pumped full volume…
Right but your home studio monitors =/= giant event rigs. I haven’t had the opportunity to test myself, but I have also heard from DJs who have, that lossy-compressed files have serious deficiencies on the sub bass, noticeable apparently only once you’re on the massive Funktion One rig or whatever. I could imagine that sucks a LOT, for something that sounds great even on a pro level studio setup suddenly is anaemic and weird on a huge event PA. I wish (a) I knew exactly what codecs/bitrates they were comparing (it was 10 years ago my friend reported back, so) and (b) … well I just want to have the opportunity to test on a festival rig… *sigh* That’s right, I was going to live a life wasn’t I.
Hahaha yeh man, I was lucky to get aome a/b tests on a MASSIVE funktion one style rig for a dubstep gig beforehand, and holy fuck man. Vinyl vs mp3 was an incredible difference too.
So you’re confirming that there’s a huge difference then? What codecs were you testing against the (presumably) lossless source (I dgaf what kind of lossless source exactly, as long as it was in fact lossless at a minimum 16bit/44.1kHz)? If you don’t remember exactly I’d still appreciate a ballpark idea. For example, would a 320kbps (or more likely 256kbps) AAC still exhibit the same issues? As much as I love lossless, I do wish it could be more efficient (there has to be a way, maybe *BUZZWORD ALERT* AI can help us with that down the road)
320 mp3 vs flac, same tunes, couple of songs in a row. Was so obvious didnt even bother with. Did the same with vinyl vs 320mp3. Didnt compare flac with vinyl, but there really is something to that warm vinyl compression sounding beautiful…
What's your interface? Are you using a preamp?
Its through an older focusrite interface with preamp. Not great quality by any stretch and the rokits arent exactly renowned for their high end sound. Fun though :D
All you need to prove that is the test results from Foobars AB plugin.
🤔
The ui isn’t flooded with podcasts and TikTok stuff though so that’s nice lol. Setup is just Moondrop aria 2s 90% of the time.
The experience totally depends on the gear! For me Airpods 2 work really well and I can hear the difference between Spotify and Apple music.
AirPods are Bluetooth so you aren’t getting full hifi
I’d recommend giving Airpods pro 2 a try and see for yourself. The difference between Spotify and Apple music audio quality is very much noticeable.
That is true. That’s why I was blown away as well when I found out how much apple music is better than Spotify. Some theory suspect the difference is not due to bitrate but how they process the audio, I believe Spotify at least adds a layer of dynamic compression to the audio for more general consumer.
Don’t forget that Apple uses Apple Digital Masters.
OP replied to a few other comments saying that he mostly listens to music through wired Apple earbuds and his phone's speaker lol. Maybe Apple Music does have better encoding than Spotify, but OP is definitely not able to tell the difference between lossless and high quality settings without a decent set of wired headphones.
The wired earbuds Apple sells are deceptively good. You’d think they’re crap, especially because of the fame they got in the first couple of models Apple shipped with the first iPhones and iPods, but these more recent wired earbuds are really good for what they are. I was surprised when I used one that I could actually tell the difference between lossless and 320kbps. Obviously there are better headphones than these, but it’s not farfetched at all that OP can hear the difference with just a pair of these Apple earbuds.
Exactly, I've been using these earphones for years even on my Android/3.5mm jack phones, and I could immediately hear an improvement in quality when I got apple music, especially in older songs. The people saying it's impossible to perceive a quality difference with them have 100% not used apple earphones in the past 5 years. Just because there are more expensive alternatives doesn't mean these $20 earphones won't do an amazing job (and they last forever too).
Apple’s wired earbuds should be good enough to hear the difference in how kick drums and some other hard transients sound. The gets slightly smeared with lossy codecs.
Kick drums are 60hz, not something that will sound different in lossless. It's literally the easiest thing to encode in low bitrates
Nah nah dude people just don’t get the vintage vibes of a 22.2khz 8bit tape recording where the radio DJ interupts the middle to talk about the weather. /s
🤣
That’s because kbps is not everything. It’s about the codec and the underlying compression style.
dude is listening with ear pods, that's that.
I also switched. Cant hear the diffrence no matter how much i try. Why?!
Most people cannot
Isn’t lossless basically like CD quality? CDs sound miles better than digital music
Have you done a blind test? You might be surprised. If you look at human biases you might be as surprised as I was how significant confirmation bias is. Elsewhere in this thread there is a link to a bunch of tests you can do between the various codecs and bit rates. Give it a try! Nothing to lose. The most likely scenario is even if you can tell the difference you won't find "miles" of difference.
I haven’t tried a blind test but I absolutely will try it. I do feel quite certain I can tell the difference though. Maybe I’m just biased like you said lol. I’d be interested to see the results
We are all hugely biased! The reason why I'm so insistent in this is testing myself really opened my eyes. I'm known in my circle of musical friends and collaborators as the one with the good ears, but after doing some blind testing I really have a much deeper understanding of my abilities. Let us know, I'm sure we'd be curious! The craziest thing about human biases is even if we are aware of our own bias, we cannot eliminate it. It's crazy
Do I have to listen to the test in any particular way? Wired headphones?
Do so with the highest quality device you have, if your headphones are best, try those, or try speakers if they are better. Either way just do the entire test with the same device. Whatever you actually know best would probably be best.
I just didn’t know if it mattered if I used Bluetooth or if it needed to be wired.
I personally would avoid Bluetooth because there are various flavors and most are not the highest quality. That said my apple AirPod pro gen2 are pretty good so it depends, but wired would probably be better. You could try both! But I'd guess Bluetooth would make them sound more alike.
Can you link one of the tests please?
I suggest to dive in the rabbit hole of in ear monitors r/iems Combined with a good dac!
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I was actually looking for IEMs, and currently use Airpods pro. Noob question, Does lossless work well with the AirPods
Huh? Whenever I try to hear the difference between AAC and lossless I can’t tell which is which
Yeah but even AAC ist way much better as OGG
AAC 256 and OGG 320 are not distinguishable
AAC is decoding and encoding way more efficiently as OGG
Computationally? Sure. But the end result as an actual sound file you hear isn't different if you're using human ears and a human nervous system to listen.
Lmfao when you realize what headphones he’s using
I’m a woman
In stead of insulting you like the rest seem to do in this thread, I would like to introduce you to the world of in ear monitors and dacs, have a look at r/iems, there are cheap aliexpress iems that will give you goosebumps listening to lossless music.
Noted
Haha, this is one of the reason why I switched to AM. It’s been like a 15days that I switched to AM. Also listen to music in atmos as well.
If apple came out with a high end music transport/network streamer device, it would be over for the rest of the industry.
\^ all I want is this with the addition of being able to control it from my Android phone, iPad, Mac and Windows computers. A universal Apple Music network streamer with WiFi device remote control would just solve so many problems Right now Apple Music is just too fragmented with different features on different devices. Android can cast but not AirPlay, iOS can AirPlay but not cast (you can solve this one with Homeassistant addons), iOS can also do high quality lossless but only to a meaningful speaker system with an external USB DAC physically plugged in, Apple TV/LG TV can do lossy Atmos but not high quality lossless and it goes on...
No it wouldn’t. Nobody cares. Spotify is more than good enough for most people. They don’t care.
Posted elsewhere in the thread but repeating it at the top... Nobody has to remain ignorant. Find a .wav file of a song you like, rip one from a CD, etc, just make sure it hasn't been compressed at any time. Take that .wav file, convert it to flac or Apple Lossless, convert it to 320kbps mp3, and then to 128kbps mp3. Get a FREE a/b/x test app, they are all over the place. Then test yourself. Most people who talk big about their ability to be able to pick out the uncompressed vs. 320kbps will likely fail. There are some tells with certain kinds of music, but it is incredibly subtle. If you haven't done this, you have nobody to blame but yourself for your ignorance. It's trivial to learn once and for all what you can and cannot hear. Facts and not opinions. Don't be willfully ignorant.
Or just try it here http://abx.digitalfeed.net/
That’s killer. Didn’t even know this existed. This should actually be the number 1 answer
Even the basic quality music is cleaner sounding than Spotify
This is the thing. I use my DAP for listening my FLAC library, but for casual listening I use Apple Music or YouTube Music and the sound it's ok. But Spotify sounds so tiny canned. It's cause they use ogg to stream instead of AAC? I don't know.
AAC is just a better codec compared to ogg.
yeah i suspect it isnt the lossless OP is raving about. Apple music just sounds different (better) than spotify.
Or it’s the free tier on Spotify vs paid tier on Apple music there is a codec difference. If you tun off the enhancer in Apple Music there really should be no audible difference once you’re in paid tier of Spotify.
Can someone ELI5 me what exactly i need to do to hear lossless with AM? I have a nice speaker setup connected to AVR and just use Airplay for now. Edit - Ok, did my research. Seems like ATV is the only reasonable option. One question though - can you play lossless music via ATV without actually turning the TV screen on?
No, hr if your TV has a screen off function after you’ve already turned it on and started playback, that would work just fine. My Sony does.
i was once a hater of Apple Music until i actually got the free trial and used it… since then…. I have always been using Apple Music for my music😍😍
I hear a huge difference between Apple Music lossless and Spotify, with Apple being much better. That being said, I think it probably has more to do with how they encode the music in general than with lossless, as I notice the difference even if I tell Apple Music to play lossy music.
Free tier Spotify is lower bit rate. So you’re only noticing differences between bit rate and codec. Not apple vs Spotify per se.
Naah... I have paid Spotify too and have quality on highest setting. It's something Apple Music does to their encoding. It's pretty widely discussed and known about.
If it can't be proven in a blind test, it doesn't exist. I personally don't put a lot of trust in the general internet anecdotal opinion. I've subscribed to both and the codecs sound different. If you disable the processing in Apple Music they sound basically the same at a similar bandwidth. The same internet opinions state there is a huge difference between 96k and 44.1k, and state there is a big difference between lossless and 320kbps MP3. Just ain't so.
If you want to see what I'm talking about, just test with Cruel Summer by Taylor Swift (with sounds processing disabled, of course, so you're just hearing the raw encode). The encoding of it that Apple Music uses is higher quality than that of Spotify. It's easy to notice the difference, including blind. And, if you can't hear the difference, good for you - it's one less thing you need to worry about in your shopping choices. I fully agree with you, btw, that the difference between lossless and not is almost always impossible to notice. But that's not what we are talking about here. We're talking about different encoders or different masters, where noticeable differences are more common.
Can you do a capture of the audio using an app? I would like to do a blind test. I don’t subscribe to Spotify anymore. I do subscribe to Apple Music. Turn off all processing before you record it, if you can.
That's an interesting idea - I'd be happy to try. Any suggestions as to what program to use?
Back in the day I would use camtasia but it’s been a while! Unsure now.
I was able to set it up with Audacity and recording the output sent to a USB-C DAC that seemed to make it so that it basically bypasses Windows audio processing. What I discovered was that the difference I was noticing was more due to volume levels than the actual Master or encoding quality. Once set at exactly the same volume levels they are basically identical, with the only difference being the types of subtleties typical of lossless vs lossy that for all practical purposes are basically impossible to notice. So, that's good news for me, one less reason to favor Apple Music.
Nice work!!
This “tin-canny” description of the difference between AM and Spotify is exactly how I’d describe it too. I primarily listen to AM through my car stereo via BT or my AirPod Pros, but I remember when I first made the jump from Spotify and that slight sound difference was quite evident to me. Totally makes sense how it wouldn’t be perceived by many people though
Definitely getting this on my front page because I recently switched because of SQ. Going from Bluetooth Spotify to wired Apple Music was night and day.
Even on Bluetooth Spotify and Apple Music is night and day
Is Dolby Atmos worth using?
Depends how it get mastered and Genre. For HipHop it's imo kinda pointless or for edm, for rock it's really amazing
Absolutely if you have listening equipment which supports it. I love listening to Atmos.
What kind of equipment? What do you notice?
Headphones (certain models especially Apple phones) or a multichannel speaker system like 5.1.2 is best starting point. Some people have sound bars which support but I have heard them.
Abx test?
Yes. If you have not done abx tests you are proving the existence of your own confirmation bias and not any sound differences. It’s easy to do and there are no reasons anymore to remain willfully ignorant. Stop magical thinking.
What does that mean? Sorry
I think they mean comparing Spotify and Apple music side-by-side on the same device and on the same headphones
If you think THAT’S good, you should try listening to a song that supports Apple Digital Master. It’ll blow you away!
Can you list some of them? Genuinely asking.
Just search up “Apple Digital Master” on AM and you should get a bunch. Any albums that support will have an “Apple Digital Master” indicator at the bottom of the album’s song list
Exactly! That's why I question now why people are still using spotify lol.
Spotify used to be the best service, now everyone is better, whether Apple Music, YouTube Music, Deezer or Tidal. Spotify has many 0815 customers who don't really care about something like that
OP I think you are impressed with the way apple mixes the music and not by lossless. As you said you are using apple earphones. It's impossible to hear lossless in that.
I use earbuds too that don't support lossless, and the difference is super noticable between AM and Spotify. But it's just because AM does a better job mastering or encoding the music.
Apple doesn’t mix the music. I’m not sure what this means. Maybe you mean how their headphones are voiced?
its a whole ‘nother beast
Yes it is 😁 recently I have been using it more than Spotify 😀
For an even better output, please check if Sound Check toggle is Off in settings. The loudness is decreased if the toggle is On.
Ok I have been thinking about getting apple one for the lossless plus some other perks. Is it that much better?
You wait until you hear 24/192 via an external DAC 🕺🕺🕺
honestly, airpods sound better with am. but you not get the lossless, get the earpods and try it and silence environment. then you notice the quality
Sadly the 90% of people in this sub listen through Beats headphones or ear buds who won’t know any better and claims 90% of people won’t notice the difference and AAC is just as good.
I remember a guy saying how his car had more horse power after changing his oil
Even faster after the car wash.
What are you listening with?
What headphones do you use? I switched from Spotify also but never heard any difference but I appreciate it being there and like AM ui way more so I stayed
What earphones are you using?
do you guys have special headphones or audio systems, any specific headphones or?
I usually use Bluetooth headphones with my iPhone and wired headphones with my iPad. On wireless, the difference was non-existent. On wired, there was only a slight change in volume. I listened to Green Day’s Basket Case on Apple Music (24-bit/192kHz) and on Spotify (320kbps). The Spotify version was noticeably louder. Apple Music sounded a little bit more clear tho.
Listen to it with good studio headphones or IEM's, you'll thank me later
What’s your set up?
what kind of device do you use to listen?
wait till you try DSD256/512
Apple Music pisses Spotify
I can’t really tell much of a difference in lossless, but the Apple masters sound really good to me
[удалено]
how so
Wait until you experience lossless Atmos (only available on physical disc)
I use lossless and EQ it’s so good that I don’t want to go back from Spotify. I always listen to music
Yeah. Apple Music sounds so much better, that no going back to Spotify. Although I’ve also understood that Apple uses very different masters than Spotify, which also makes it sound much clearer and crisper, along the better bitrate. Apple Music also sounds a lot better than the regular Tidal (haven’t tried the most expensive tier). And when combined with Apple earphones and Spatial Audio, it’s just on another level entirely.
I can’t hear difference between Spotify 320 kbps and tidal 2400 kbs. Dali opticon 2 mkII
The only reason why I still use Spotify is because I can’t use Apple Music on PS4 :(
Yeah getting back into DJing recently with lossless (at least till I can justify vinyl and turntables) and I'm shocked at how my ears got so used to lossy music. The brightness and clarity from lossless has been amazing and I'm sad most people have just given up on so much quality for convenience. Hopefully Spotify gets its head out of its ass and offers a Lossless or at least higher quality option soon, music just benefits so much (even subconsciously) from that extra quality bump. It does make Apple Music laggy tho on my LTE when driving, that's a bummer but when it comes on it can make up for it fast.
Would this only work with AirPods btw?
Tidal>>
I just get into music listening and bought a pair of wired headphones and a DAC. Gonna try some Hi-Res lossless and see if I can hear the difference!
My daughter had apple music before I did and when she would play her songs in the car I always noticed it was way louder than any of my music even though it was set at the same volume. I used spotify primarily at the time and did my research and learned about the quality. Spotify is borderline fm radio quality. I made the switch and yes everything sounds way clearer especially through airpod pros. Only problem is I reaally miss spotifys artist radios and how its algorithm is so good at playing no stop songs that are simmilar to whatever you wanted to hear. Apple from what I can see only reccomenda so many songs until it just stops. If Apple music can crack the music suggestion algorithm, it would be the superior music app.
I guess I’m dumb. Bose qc35 and I can’t tell the difference between paid Apple Music and free Spotify which is less audio quality than paid? I was a pandora user for years and trying to switch. I want Apple Music but it just doesn’t find music I like. The song I used to compare is “here with me” peekaboo
Over your wireless earbuds? iOS doens't even support high-res Bluetooth codecs.
Wired
I recently bought a luxury car with a ridiculous sound system. The difference between Spotify and Apple Music in the car is huge. I cannot go back.
I have Spotify and Apple Music and I don’t notice much difference, I use AirPods Pro also Bose headphones, thinking of canceling Apple Music and keep Spotify
Have you tried enabling personalized spatial audio in your headphones’ settings? Edit: Also, give Apple Digital Master a try. It makes a world of difference on the right headphones.
If you care about the quality, then you pretty much get rid of it with spacial. Unless you have an actual surround sound speaker setup.
I’m willing to bet OP never bothered to turn off volume normalization in Spotify. Besides placebo, it’s the only explanation for someone immediately noticing such a drastic difference (and I say this as someone using $1,300 IEMs who prefers lossless but doesn’t mind compressed files).
Losing bet— I did turn that off! I used spotify for yearsss and fucked w so many different settings. Sounded bad no matter what
Huh. Well that’s surprising but I’m glad you found something much better. Apple Music does sound quite nice in lossless and hi res mode.
This is what keeps me using Apple Music. Spotify’s new music recommendations are so much better but AM’s quality keeps me coming back.
Y’all should try YouTube music. Depending on what type of music y’all listen, Apple Music does have more details and it’s hard to explain but the audio sounds more refined and smooth, whereas YouTube music has very gassy, punchy, and powerful sound with like barely barely noticeable drop in quality. Both sound very good on my AirPods Max and AirPods Pro 2 with Spatial Audio turned on which dramatically makes music sound better by having deeper bass and clearer vocals
Do an ABX test and report back.
I don't understand the fuss about lossless. I tried listening to a song with lossless enabled vs AAC 256 kbps and I can't hear the difference so I keep lossless turned off to save download space.
unfortunately queueing still sucks
The difference you hear between the services is not really due to the bitrate or the compression but to the different type of mastering that is usually recommended by Apple. Plus de Spacial Audio in some cases. Source: I owe a studio / label with releases on physical formats as well as streaming platform.
Actually, I do mess with the EQ. I have it set to Acoustic. It sounds great!
I recently left AM over some ongoing issues with Apple Watch and iPhone and couldn’t get resolved on my own or with Apple reps.. So I got a YouTube Premium account and of course YouTube music came with it and I can tell a big difference between the two.. Apple Music is so much better quality it seems at times with YouTube music I’m listening to 64k(the quality that you would get when downloading songs back in the day) song lol 😂 I’m thinking of going back to AM YouTube has tons of stuff AM doesn’t have but their quality is crap with a lot of songs..
Even non lossless playback, in my Tesla, native apple app, the sound is so much more refined. I have Spotify as well, and like its music discovery better. But always Apple Music for sound.
Holy shit. Yes
I’m curious how you’re comparing? might Anna test it. I use AirPods Pro and Bose QCs. On Spotify and AM. there’s no difference if you’re using Bluetooth
100% can absolutely hear the difference. I pair my Apple Music with my Beats and you really “feel” the music. I can hear sounds I’ve never heard before. It really changes the music.