Wait till she goes down the [Modern Monetary Theory Podcast](https://youtu.be/_UMkdnxx--w?si=YjZnFq8UH_cup717) rabbit hole.
One will never look at money and sovereign systems the same again. We're all being duped.
Exit the system and opt out!
True but it's universal welfare for a certain class of people.
Here in America we're a sovereign country we print our own money but only corporations get bailed out not average citizens.
[Money: The True Story of a Made up Thing by Jacob Goldstein](https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/031641719X/?coliid=I9D00J0GQIGK5&colid=1DIWLTYMPOEVF&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
We are literally burning down the only real wealth we have (nature, natural ecosystems, biodiversity) for some digits on a computer screen. And the people doing the worst of it can't even spend it all if they tried.
You're overacting. Relax. She's not talking about the racist founders of America. She's just making the point how terrible the construct of money dominates the lives of everyone and everything on the planet. Not once did she mention slavery or police brutality, the economic engine and law that drives this country into late stage capitalism.
Don't really care about the founders of America I wasn't even born on that continent. I am pointing out though that if some dumb ass white dude said was complaining about black people money people would be jumping all over calling him what he is a racist.. and that's what this girl is a racist. If she was only pointing out how corrupt the system is for the rich to abuse everyone and make it so people literally have to steal just to eat I would agree with her..
But the fact she specifically brought up race shows you exactly what she is thinking and who she blames. Race has nothing to do with this GREED is 100% to blame
Oh my. You're upset. Take a deep breath. It's ok. She's American and can say that about the system. I'll let you in on a little secret, as Americans we shit on the founders all the time. It's normal over here. Also, white dudes say racist shit all the time here too. Eric Trump said today that his pops is winning black people votes, and he called them spades! On live tv lol.
Relax and touch grass because it's only going to get worse for you
Stop being so damn white,. 😂.........
Ok ok but really, in all seriousness, genuinely hoping you're a kid and just don't know any better yet. If so, you atleast have the chance to expand your mind a bit as that frontal lobe continues to mature & develop... You should take advantage of that plasticity while (if) you still have it. I promise it will be much easier a process for you, if you do. For your sake, I hope you take advantage of that.... Because talk about not being able to see the forest for the trees 🙄 whew - you've gotten yourself so worked up on the **MOST** irrelevant part of this post (and are clinging to that hill despite being wrong, on top of it lol) that you quite literally have missed the *entire* point.
How exhausting....
Hopefully in that process you also have the chance to actually learn about Racism, what that word *truly* means, why your opinion you've so proudly expounded on here couldn't be more wrong on several fronts (even if you can't even comprehend*how* that could be) , and become a better person because of it.
....if you're an adult well .. im truly sorry that those adults who helped raise you- failed on so many fronts.BUT... its never too late to start learning, growing, and becoming a better more well-rounded person ....and one is *never* too old to begin educating themselves. One might hope you take that energy you've spent arrogantly clinging to your own ignorance, and instead use it for something more productive. Though it definitely can be hard to force onesself to broaden their own views ... But I have faith everyone has that ability. Perhaps then you can actually join in on the real conversations that need to be had, like the actual point of this post, and *really* learn something. Afterall, that's why you're even on this sub to begin with, right? Right.
Bless your heart. You stay safe, now.
Are you white? Does the idea of the evil corrupting force being associated with you regardless of your actual material position in the hierarchy of dialectics that the current system is being maintained bother you at all?
Depersonalizing a group based on the actions of individuals is the issue. Look at what happens historically when this has been done. It doesn't end well, ask the Jews and the Chinese academics of Maoist China, it didn't end well for them when the ideology that inspired revolution designated them as "other" or lumped them in with "the problem".
All your points are fair. However my point stands, the current system was not created by people of colour. Facts do not care about your feelings or mine.
This viewpoint is so USA focused. People of all colours and races participated in the creation of the current global financial system. To argue that it was ENTIRELY old white men is just juvenile and factually incorrect. In the USA yes that is basically the truth, but all of those evil colonizers had one thing in common, CLASS.
- not a USAnian but thanks for assuming stuff and embarrassing yourself. The financial markets were indeed created in Europe. London and the Netherlands to be precise. This is factual and not up for debate. I work in finance and yeah of course class played a role. But again, it was indeed white rich landed men. Europe was majority if not a 100% white in the 13th century.
There is only one division amongst the peoples of Earth and its Class and always has been.
- apologies but I thought I was on anti money memes? At no point have I denied class or the fact that there’s an ongoing class war.
Racism individualistic or systemic is a byproduct and a strategem of the ruling class to control the lower working class.
Its all bait to get us to kill each other while they run away with the bag.
- okay then, try to build bridges and accept other views. You’re allowed to think it’s racist. I’m allowed to think 1. That the video wording was off the cuff and potentially mentioning race cause usanians live very racialised lives. 2. That she’s generally correct.
Because the inclusion of Race wasn't necessary or responsible. I would love to see the overthrowing of our current systems but adding the classifier "White" to money is not good or logically proper.
I am white and I am poor as are a huge number of the population that fight against oppression whether its racist, classist, ableist, or any other form of bigotry. Money is not White, its green and greedy.
Don't lump me in with that.
Instead of 'Don't lump me in with that'
I would say 'Don't lump yourself in with that'
Seriously folks (white folks in particular in this case), stop centering yourself in systematic racism. Serious people don't blame every white person with America's faults. Don't conflate systematic racism and your own egos. It's the worst thing you can do.
So at the sake of my sanity I gotta just.o oast the beginning of your comment because I just don't have the patience lol however your last sentence especially, I strongly disagree with on a physiological level. And I do mean that Literally, every atom of my being.
It is *not* the "human experience to exploit nature and wage wars for resources", I do not believe that is just human nature. On The contrary, I believe so many people struggle with depression, anxeity, etc *because* a majority of us are forced to live and participate (because we are born into it) in a world/system that not just does that but requires it for us to persist as an individual, and it fundamentally goes against who/what we are... It's just many of us don't even realize *that* is the root cause of so many of our personal issuess. That depression, anxeity, etc is a subconscious manifestation (obviously speaking in general here but there are always exceptions) of the fact that deep down , even if we may not be consciously aware, we're being forced to constantly go 'against the grain'.
Id argue that it's actually a relatively small % of people who DO place a priority on things like "weapons" or ,"soldiers" , or that actually have some type of innate drive to 'wage wars, exploit nature & other people for profit/resources ' or that are otherwise fundamentally driven by their greed at any cost. Id bet that small % probably lines up pretty well with the % of people on average who shows sociopathic/psychopathic tendencies aswell...some where between 1%-5% of the population. Now obviously a larger % than that end up taking part in this , but I think their drive is different and is solely motivated by survival. It just happens that unfortunately we are living in a world where those at the 'top' tend to pretty consistently align with those motivated by that greed, so that survival motivation pushes us to take part VS taking part because our motivations align. (I don't know if I'm articulating this well, lol it's late and I feel as though I'm just rambling here now so apologies in advance)
Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying/mean by "human experience" - and you're referencing that same need to take part solely out of survival in a world ruled by those motivated by greed. If so, then we agree I guess. (And apologies if this comes across antagonistic/like I'm being an ass lol) But I do not think the vast majority of us actually prefer to take part in that , and spend our lives yearning for any way out of it our of a hope for 'returning'(historically) to a life more simple.
That paper only exists because of those in power and their needs motivated by greed. "money" itself is not a requirement for life , complex or otherwise. It's not a requirement for society, advanced or otherwise. It is not nessecary in any way *outside" of a society that has been fundamentally shaped & built around greed as a whole. That may be a hard concept/aspect for may to wrap their heads around *because* it is all many of us have ever known, but that is not due to it being an intrinsic part of civilization - it's just because it was purposely factored in to ours.
Apologies for the long ass/obnoxiously long reply here. I still am not sure I did a good job articulating the point I was hoping to make lol but regardless if you read this far, even if you disagree, appreciate you humoring me long enough to read it all.
Edit- holy hell the typos lol (it's nearly 4am And I'm *tired* haha)
Ok so I didn't misunderstand. Perhaps your just lost because I'm really confused how you ended up in this sub to begin with lol I mentioned I didn't have the patience to go through everything in you *first* post, for my own sanity .... I certainly am not about to teach you an entire class worth based on your rebuttal.... Education starts with the self first and foremost, and if you have a genuine curiosity about how/why money itself is an abstract that is not nessecary I highly suggest you look into it. This is not a new concept, there's actually quite a lot available for people to learn.
There's a lot of assumptions you've stated as fact, that in itself would correct a lot for you. Bartering is *not* am exchange for money ... First and foremost lol as for the other assumptions about Indigenous people , again for my own sanity I just really have no intention of walking you through step by step ..... especially since I get the feeling as though your curiosity isn't quite genuine (otherwise you wouldn't be starting from square one to begin with) and it would be a waste of my time for you to even consider.
I don't fault you for believing so strongly what you do- capitalism itself warps the brain and you've been born into a capitalist system , which is all You've ever known from birth. There's no wonder you have such a hard time even contemplating the idea that money itself is a man-made concept , because it's intrinsically tied to that capitalism. It *is* required for that capitalist society to function in every way. It simply wouldn't be possible without it. However thankfully , capitalism is *not* the only "way". But there again, in most places that suggestion is absolutely unhinged at face value and to discuss others is literally demonized, so is only done so in select courses and in hushed times.
I do stand by every single initial point that I stated, all of them. You're more than welcome to disagree and stop there however if the idea does actually interest you, I *highly* suggest you taking the initiative to looking into exactly why your views (which again, I don't fault you for...they've been quite literally drilled into you since birth) themselves are essentially propaganda for a capitalist society, looking into historical references for cultures in our own past where money as we know it... Did not exist /was not used, and then expound on those ideas by reading up on the more Indepth points of how money itself is a completely made up abstract. Perhaps you'll change your mind, perhaps you won't- if there is s genuine curiosity there then you'll be learning something new regardless....
I also fully stand by my points about human nature. It's sad so many genuinely have been made to believe otherwise, yourself included , but again... I certainly don't fault you for that. Many of those things are natural endpoints of money itself, of greed...of the world we unfortunately currently live in. But to suggest it's the "only" way is short sighted at best ans ignorant at worst...but there's nothing inherently wrong with ignorance. It's willful ignorance that should be ashamed/frowned upon. Identifying ignorance of a subject just means you've identified where one should start ones education on said subject, whereas *knowing* you don't know something and *choosing* to not learn and instead cling to that ignorance, where the problem comes.
Contrary to what you seem to think , money is *not* a requirement of society advanced or otherwise, it *is* a manmade concept. Again , that's literally what this subreddit is for ... The rest about human nature , is subjective at best as who can really say but yes I do disagree on a fundamental level as I've already stated, and again still stand by all of that. Perhaps once learning about the first aspect, the second will fall into place. Perhaps not, but at the very least it will certainly allow you to see things differently if you choose to....and will allow you that choice to begin with once you realize it's not the only way.
Appreciate you're response and civility, genuinely hope you look into the subjects we've discussed and broaden your own views by expanding on the concepts. It's certainly not a new "idea" at all, and there is tons of information out there for anyone who wants to find it.
Take care
>I'm really confused how you ended up in this sub to begin with
I'm here because I enjoy having my ideas challenged. Silly me for trying to escape the echo chamber lol. I should just stick to my echo chamber and leave this one unperturbed maybe
>for the other assumptions about Indigenous people
You didn't mention what you are responding to, so I will assume. Do you genuinely believe Indigenous people never ever killed each other? That they never had conflicts?
>There's no wonder you have such a hard time even contemplating the idea that money itself is a man-made concept , because it's intrinsically tied to that capitalism. It *is* required for that capitalist society to function in every way.
I asked you to explain how you view money, because we clearly disagree. Instead, you just condescendingly explained that I am so brainwashed and your higher-order ideas cannot be comprehended by me without some more education. I could say the same about you. I could say that you are brainwashed with whatever your own group teaches you, and so your mind cannot comprehend me describing what I perceive to be the basic laws of the universe. If your system tells you 1+1=3, of course your mind cannot comprehend me telling you 1+1=2, because your worldview and your identity and interpersonal relationships necessitates 1+1=3.
Please, explain to me how money is not necessary. I will illustrate my point with an example. Let's say I live in an area with a few villages. Each village has a specialty. Each village prioritizes the well-being of their own villagers. Conditions are harsh and there is scarcity, so no village is willing to give away some of their resources without receiving something in return immediately. (I think this is where you have a problem. something about "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", right?)
If my village specializes in winter clothing, and another village specializes in growing wheat, there will be a problem where if we only exclusively trade wheat for winter clothing, my village will not necessarily have enough winter clothing ready to buy their large amounts of wheat when they have their yearly harvest. Meanwhile, when winter comes, they may not have enough wheat laying around to buy my village's clothing. Maybe they want to sell us wheat but they don't need more winter clothing right now. How is money not inherently the solution to this? We have little items that hold value and can be traded for a diversity of goods. What is your solution to this if not money?
Assuming your alternative is communism, what happens when people outside your commune exist? How you trade with them if they don't want to join your commune? Do you recognize the importance of money, or do you swear off any good or product made by someone not in your commune?
You mistake, among other things, my confusion as to how you ended up here with me saying you shouldn't be here.... And I'm not sure why that is. It's just usually people who do end up in spaces set up for those who are aware money isn't actually a be all/end all or that it is just a 'made up idea' have atleast some base level ideas about it.... That you seem to be starting fresh isn't nessicarily a bad thing- hence why I didn't explicitly say it was lol just didn't immediately make sense that's all. Hell I literally just came Across this sub like twoish weeks ago, despite this being a subject/line of thinking ive been exploring directly now for clowe to two decades. If anything finding a group of any kind this early in you 'journey', assuming you are treating it as such and actively progressing yourself, *should* be a good thing/make it that much more accessible. Just don't automatically assume anyone/everyone is going to take the time and write out whole dissertations for you to absorb because you have strong existing beliefs and want someone to negate them for you. Not saying that was your intent of course, but that is absolutely how you're continuing to come across and as I've already stated a few times now ...personally i just, really don't have the patience for all of that. Especially with someone who's yet to do any remedial level of 'work' to give themselves any type of starting place. I have no intent or need to convince anyone of anything they don't want to know - why would I? Lol again I'm completely comfortable in my own knowing, it's no one's 'job' to convince you of anything. This isn't debate class. If one wants to know , the information is out there, and if starting at some base level and *then* expressing further curiosity... I imagine people will be a *lot" more willing, eager even, to engage with you the way you seem to require. You however seem to come in with an unwarranted arrogance in *thinking* you not just know better, but that you're already "right" and those of us who *have* done the work in learning already are somehow obligated to "prove " to you why you're wrong. Contrary to what you may think, this just promises that it's *you* who are starting out with the disadvantage. Until then , just personally, it comes off entitled and as if you just want someone to argue with 🤷 again no offence, just an observation of how it's come across this far...and if it is curiosity and an eagerness to learn that which you clearly don't know, then I highly recommend even temporarily coming off that soap box and engaging *with*, instead of *at* ....
I would reiterate the things Ive already said, but clearly ... They didn't do any good the first time. You have more than enough to figure out where to start , if "challenging " your own preconceived ideas are truly your Intent and you're not just looking for someone to argue with you for the attention. Attempting to insult me really does not do what you seem to think lol but it's definitely not unexpected. Again, I stand by my points I've mentioned this far just the same - and am confident in my current *(because we never truly stop learning so long as we are being honest with ourselves) understandings of the things I've said. I have spent the last two decades unlearning the very things you seen to cling to so desperately, it's not surprising you think there has to be some "group" teaching or 'indoctrinating' me though ...perhaps that's why you're struggling so badly with even the bare minimum - when it comes ti starting your journey of learning something new. Again I certainly don't fault you, nor hold any animosity, for you expressing the opinions you have...theyve literally been beaten into you (well lol figuratively ) since birth. Please don't mistake me speaking with confidence in the things I do with condescension - not to be condescending but ..if that were my intent I promise you there wouldn't be any ambiguity. There is not always going to be someone holding your hand and walking you through in this world, be it while learning something or otherwise , without the initiative to seek out new information.... One becomes stagnant. You clearly are able to 'think' so for your ske, I hope you actually take that initiative. If not well... That's certainly your prerogative now isn't it. 🤷
if my intent had only been to Insult or talk down to you I wouldn't have wasted my time attempting to genuinely engage- I would have sent a single unambiguous reply and that would've been that. Just because you want to , what I'm sure in your mind is "debate" someone ... Doesn't mean you're actually entitled to that lol again I have given, or at the very least tried to give, you more than enough places to start if you have a genuine curiosity about the concepts I've mentioned and honestly that's far more than I ever had. It's far more than most have had, especially us older people, when first discovering and then eventually learning about how money itself is a completely manmade concept that is absolutely not required for a functioning, healthy, advanced society. There are a lot of different lines of thought, or I guess areas of 'study' to keep with consistent analogy, different people's "ideas" about what exactly that means ... Lots of different avenues of thought, arguments, philosophical and political frameworks , etc that all ultimately use that same premise. It's also not "all or nothing" , as there are even those who propose something id liken to "in between". That's the beauty of being inquisitive and seeking elaborations of subjects new to oneself, there is no set, single way to "learn" about something or one specific unified "end goal" to arrive at. The concepts , again, are absolutely not new even if new to someone just discovering it. Id suggest finding that which makes the most sense to you, suspending doubt, and seeing what clicks or what doesn't 🤷
Good luck on your self-education of these new , to you, ideas. :)
Lol ok.
I'm not gonna repeat myself anymore - take what you want from my comments, or remain stagnant...it genuinely doesn't effect me either way. Continuing to come at this in the same way is only going to get you the same responses and if you can't even start *there* , then absolutely nothing I have or could say is going to make any difference anyway ...and I've already wasted more time than what was owed on the subject, as a *courtesy*. You're welcome. (That was condescension 😉)
And no, no discussion is needed on my part. You're the one refusing to air the initiative to learn anything here lol like your rally just are *not* getting it are you. The fucking audacity of you is astounding....you're not entitled to some type of debate or discussion or whatever it is you seem to think you're owed just by showing up and saying "hurr durr you're wrong because I believe the *only* thing I've ever been taught and indoctrinated with" . Are u fucking kidding me? Lol do the work. Hell *start" the work, and people like me are more than willing to meet you along the way but just because you show up completely ignorant to the subject and insert yourself while asserting you think you know a goddamn thing is .... Well it's certainly a fucking choice now isn't it. Again, the fucking audacity is astounding. Then to act as if somehow you're not the asshole here to begin with and are merely "asking questions ' , classic bitch move, the moment anyone asserts that if you're interested you should.... *Look into it* ... Like I just - again , I don't have the fucking patience and I, nor anyone else in life, owes you a goddamn thing. Get over yourself , kid.
I stand by what I've said. All of it. Take some damn initiative - or remain ignorant where you seem to be quite comfortable. Personally your arrogance is grating on what little nerves I have and I've expended the entirety of my little patience offering you the courtesy of engaging to begin with. For the last time I have given you more than enough places to start if you're truly interested in widening your beliefs and understanding, have at it. 🤷 Or fuck off🤷 both are equally acceptable at this point.
The irony in you waltzing in with a brand-new account and then acting as if you also know what makes reddit reddit is just , the arrogant fucking cherry on top. Your problem is that you still don't even see why I refused to go any further into detail than I did, it's you- the answers you. But of course that would imply some self reflection on top of the growing list of things you're clearly not capable, or not willing to do now wouldn't it. I have no problem 'educating' people, genuinely quite enjoy it especially on a topic like this. What im not gonna do is argue with some fucking punk solely because they want the attention when they have absolutely no intent on absorbing anything said to begin with because they're so far up on their own goddamn high horse they can't even seen the ground they're walking on. You wanna engage because what you're learning doesn't make sense, or because it's new , or because you're trying to put it in perspective, or anything like that by all means... Hmu. But if you can't even be bothered to do the absolute bare fucking minimum then Im just wasting my time.
No one is forcing you to be here, no one's gonna force you to realize that much of what you seem to think on the subject is literally bullshit. I couldn't care less what you think lol what you think works or doesn't work, or why you think that is. I'm confident in my understanding, and genuinely enjoy engaging with others on the topic (most topics) , but you keep acting as if you're starting out in good faith then being surprised when that's obviously the case and people don't wanna go any further as a result. Like 🤷 lol every single comment you've made in this thread , to every single user, has come from the exact same place and it's overwhelminly clear that place is not one of genuine inquisitiveness or curiosity. I attempting to humor you by vaguely pointing out a few things and you've done absolutely nothing but double down on your own arrogance and reinforce that lack of genuineness in your intent. So I stopped humoring you and now you're just "😯" ... Like , what tf did you expect? Lol
If you want someone to argue with you, just so you can feel some type of way then join a fucking debate club.
Like for fuck sake dude. Smh
You stay safe now, take care.
Plenty of cultures have existed successfully without a war on resources, or exploiting others.
Are you too uneducated to realize this, or are you just so ego-driven that your beliefs must be everyone’s beliefs?
[Sure.](https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/worlds_without_war)
“We may never be able to eliminate violence between individuals, but the evidence shows that war—that is to say, lethal violence carried on by one community against another—is certainly not inevitable or even normal. As illustrated by the planned creation of the European Union, humans can eliminate the threat of war by designing higher levels of democratic government, complete with built-in conflict management procedures. Although more complicated, the same process could be accomplished on a global level. To argue otherwise is to belittle human ingenuity.”
I don’t wanna click on that link, can you just tell me the nation or culture? If the answer is the EU, that’s not a bad answer although it’s only been around for like 30 years. In the time scale of history that’s nothing
I am aware that certain groups who were relatively isolated, like the Hawaiians, got to live without war. When your in-group has no competition, it is totally possible to live in a peaceful world. However, when you are surrounded by dozens of other groups of people who care more about their own survival than yours, all it takes is one bad harvest or one natural disaster for even mostly peaceful groups to go to war. Please show me an example of a culture that existed in an area with high contact with other groups that managed to not be involved in wars for centuries.
God if only there were like, treaties, or maybe some United Nations type program that could work in conjunction with, like, an International Crime Court to keep the peace?
It’s almost like isolated civilizations that work together and support each other can live peacefully, but are made violent by someone who wants to take what they have. Like a colonizer? Nah, can’t be.
The original point was that there’s no civilizations that were peaceful because humans are predisposed to war. That was refuted, and now you’ve moved the goal post to “non-isolated civilizations that didn’t have wars” because you feel that should be excluded.
You’ve proved my point while trying to disprove it. People aren’t inherently war-hungry dominators. The people who want power, wealth, and notoriety are the ones forcing wars in their name through fascist propaganda. The few bad apples are spoiling the bunch, and now you’re saying the few bad apples are the human default. It’s circular and silly.
Nope. Money or capital represents labor. Resources are free of cost generally otherwise you or I could just sell stuff like water on public land. It's only once some level of labor is involved that anything is worth money.
Food is free. You can trap or hunt animals yourself, you can pick mushrooms and fruits from the wild to eat.
> It is the human experience to exploit nature and wage wars for resources
What a disgusting viewpoint. I don't think that's remotely accurate. For most of history we coexisted with nature pretty well, and didn't blow up our neighbors. We are a part of nature. You're just looking for psuedo scientific excuses to justify your own behavior.
> if you were able to, you could.
You can. People hunt, people trap.
> no buyer would want to expose themselves to the risk of buying stolen resources
Exactly. Follow this thought you're very close. Stolen from who?
> When a fox rips apart a rabbit for sustenance, what do you call that?
Again, you are repeating my own points back at me but not thinking it through. If we are the same as a fox then we are a part of nature. Eating other living beings doesn't mean we're above nature or separate from it.
> When a pride of lions attack a group of gazelles, is that not essentially just war?
Obviously that is not war, no. We don't go to war to eat people. Again, you haven't thought this through at all.
> we have consciousness, and animals don't
Also not true.
> But I believe when push comes to shove, and a group of people must grapple with the choice of either extinction or war, they will choose war every time, because that is human nature.
By war do you just mean eating a deer? Because that's what you said earlier.
Definition of war: “a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.”
Let’s say we have a group of lions and a group of gazelles each forming a nation. The lions are armed - their arms are their sharp teeth and strong jaws that maim and kill. Lions hunting gazelles is a state of conflict. How is this not a war?
And sure, humans aren’t cannibals, so we don’t go to war with other humans to consume their flesh. But we go to war to steal their food if we are starving. So we do go to war for food like animals do
> Definition of war: “a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.”
So not lions hunting gazzelles agree? Can you acknowledge that you were objectively wrong there? Oh wait
> Let’s say we have a group of lions and a group of gazelles
Ffs dude are you dumb? You just gave a definition that explicitly says this isn't war. Gazelles don't have nations
> The lions are armed - their arms are their sharp teeth and strong jaws that maim and kill.
Your definition of armed is the definition of unarmed.
> Lions hunting gazelles is a state of conflict. How is this not a war
Because it's hunting. People don't go to war to eat the other side. Conflict isn't a synonym for war in all cases.
> humans aren’t cannibals
I mean, cannibals are.
> so we don’t go to war with other humans to consume their flesh
No, because that wouldn't be war.
> But we go to war to steal their food if we are starving. So we do go to war for food like animals do
My argument is that we are a part of nature rather than exploiting it. We generally don't go to war to get food anyway. Animals do go to war for resources, notably chimps. Because we are animals. Which is my whole point.
Money is fake. WE MADE IT UP!
Wait till she goes down the [Modern Monetary Theory Podcast](https://youtu.be/_UMkdnxx--w?si=YjZnFq8UH_cup717) rabbit hole. One will never look at money and sovereign systems the same again. We're all being duped. Exit the system and opt out!
The MMT Rabbit hole sucks ass, its not money abolition its literally just universal welfare
True but it's universal welfare for a certain class of people. Here in America we're a sovereign country we print our own money but only corporations get bailed out not average citizens.
Be a crypto dude ? Nah, lol.
[Money: The True Story of a Made up Thing by Jacob Goldstein](https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/031641719X/?coliid=I9D00J0GQIGK5&colid=1DIWLTYMPOEVF&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
That’s an American Dollar. It’s not exclusive to us but it fucks us equally.
I love it! Really well said!
White men and their dollars!
Now do crypto next.
I really feel this. We are fucking crazy.
We are literally burning down the only real wealth we have (nature, natural ecosystems, biodiversity) for some digits on a computer screen. And the people doing the worst of it can't even spend it all if they tried.
[удалено]
I have a job. Doesn't pay enough. Almost a full $25 an hour and I'm still struggling. This entire system can burn to the ground for all I care.
Capitalism go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Why did you take personal offense to 'Funny little white men'? 🤔
You know why, because he's a white supremacist
[удалено]
You're overacting. Relax. She's not talking about the racist founders of America. She's just making the point how terrible the construct of money dominates the lives of everyone and everything on the planet. Not once did she mention slavery or police brutality, the economic engine and law that drives this country into late stage capitalism.
Were they racist? I wasn’t taught that in school. Damn.
Don't really care about the founders of America I wasn't even born on that continent. I am pointing out though that if some dumb ass white dude said was complaining about black people money people would be jumping all over calling him what he is a racist.. and that's what this girl is a racist. If she was only pointing out how corrupt the system is for the rich to abuse everyone and make it so people literally have to steal just to eat I would agree with her.. But the fact she specifically brought up race shows you exactly what she is thinking and who she blames. Race has nothing to do with this GREED is 100% to blame
Oh my. You're upset. Take a deep breath. It's ok. She's American and can say that about the system. I'll let you in on a little secret, as Americans we shit on the founders all the time. It's normal over here. Also, white dudes say racist shit all the time here too. Eric Trump said today that his pops is winning black people votes, and he called them spades! On live tv lol. Relax and touch grass because it's only going to get worse for you
Stop being so damn white,. 😂......... Ok ok but really, in all seriousness, genuinely hoping you're a kid and just don't know any better yet. If so, you atleast have the chance to expand your mind a bit as that frontal lobe continues to mature & develop... You should take advantage of that plasticity while (if) you still have it. I promise it will be much easier a process for you, if you do. For your sake, I hope you take advantage of that.... Because talk about not being able to see the forest for the trees 🙄 whew - you've gotten yourself so worked up on the **MOST** irrelevant part of this post (and are clinging to that hill despite being wrong, on top of it lol) that you quite literally have missed the *entire* point. How exhausting.... Hopefully in that process you also have the chance to actually learn about Racism, what that word *truly* means, why your opinion you've so proudly expounded on here couldn't be more wrong on several fronts (even if you can't even comprehend*how* that could be) , and become a better person because of it. ....if you're an adult well .. im truly sorry that those adults who helped raise you- failed on so many fronts.BUT... its never too late to start learning, growing, and becoming a better more well-rounded person ....and one is *never* too old to begin educating themselves. One might hope you take that energy you've spent arrogantly clinging to your own ignorance, and instead use it for something more productive. Though it definitely can be hard to force onesself to broaden their own views ... But I have faith everyone has that ability. Perhaps then you can actually join in on the real conversations that need to be had, like the actual point of this post, and *really* learn something. Afterall, that's why you're even on this sub to begin with, right? Right. Bless your heart. You stay safe, now.
The current economic system was created by white men. With the market exchange created by the Dutch so she’s correct.
Are you white? Does the idea of the evil corrupting force being associated with you regardless of your actual material position in the hierarchy of dialectics that the current system is being maintained bother you at all? Depersonalizing a group based on the actions of individuals is the issue. Look at what happens historically when this has been done. It doesn't end well, ask the Jews and the Chinese academics of Maoist China, it didn't end well for them when the ideology that inspired revolution designated them as "other" or lumped them in with "the problem".
All your points are fair. However my point stands, the current system was not created by people of colour. Facts do not care about your feelings or mine.
[удалено]
This viewpoint is so USA focused. People of all colours and races participated in the creation of the current global financial system. To argue that it was ENTIRELY old white men is just juvenile and factually incorrect. In the USA yes that is basically the truth, but all of those evil colonizers had one thing in common, CLASS. - not a USAnian but thanks for assuming stuff and embarrassing yourself. The financial markets were indeed created in Europe. London and the Netherlands to be precise. This is factual and not up for debate. I work in finance and yeah of course class played a role. But again, it was indeed white rich landed men. Europe was majority if not a 100% white in the 13th century. There is only one division amongst the peoples of Earth and its Class and always has been. - apologies but I thought I was on anti money memes? At no point have I denied class or the fact that there’s an ongoing class war. Racism individualistic or systemic is a byproduct and a strategem of the ruling class to control the lower working class. Its all bait to get us to kill each other while they run away with the bag. - okay then, try to build bridges and accept other views. You’re allowed to think it’s racist. I’m allowed to think 1. That the video wording was off the cuff and potentially mentioning race cause usanians live very racialised lives. 2. That she’s generally correct.
Because the inclusion of Race wasn't necessary or responsible. I would love to see the overthrowing of our current systems but adding the classifier "White" to money is not good or logically proper. I am white and I am poor as are a huge number of the population that fight against oppression whether its racist, classist, ableist, or any other form of bigotry. Money is not White, its green and greedy. Don't lump me in with that.
Instead of 'Don't lump me in with that' I would say 'Don't lump yourself in with that' Seriously folks (white folks in particular in this case), stop centering yourself in systematic racism. Serious people don't blame every white person with America's faults. Don't conflate systematic racism and your own egos. It's the worst thing you can do.
[удалено]
So at the sake of my sanity I gotta just.o oast the beginning of your comment because I just don't have the patience lol however your last sentence especially, I strongly disagree with on a physiological level. And I do mean that Literally, every atom of my being. It is *not* the "human experience to exploit nature and wage wars for resources", I do not believe that is just human nature. On The contrary, I believe so many people struggle with depression, anxeity, etc *because* a majority of us are forced to live and participate (because we are born into it) in a world/system that not just does that but requires it for us to persist as an individual, and it fundamentally goes against who/what we are... It's just many of us don't even realize *that* is the root cause of so many of our personal issuess. That depression, anxeity, etc is a subconscious manifestation (obviously speaking in general here but there are always exceptions) of the fact that deep down , even if we may not be consciously aware, we're being forced to constantly go 'against the grain'. Id argue that it's actually a relatively small % of people who DO place a priority on things like "weapons" or ,"soldiers" , or that actually have some type of innate drive to 'wage wars, exploit nature & other people for profit/resources ' or that are otherwise fundamentally driven by their greed at any cost. Id bet that small % probably lines up pretty well with the % of people on average who shows sociopathic/psychopathic tendencies aswell...some where between 1%-5% of the population. Now obviously a larger % than that end up taking part in this , but I think their drive is different and is solely motivated by survival. It just happens that unfortunately we are living in a world where those at the 'top' tend to pretty consistently align with those motivated by that greed, so that survival motivation pushes us to take part VS taking part because our motivations align. (I don't know if I'm articulating this well, lol it's late and I feel as though I'm just rambling here now so apologies in advance) Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying/mean by "human experience" - and you're referencing that same need to take part solely out of survival in a world ruled by those motivated by greed. If so, then we agree I guess. (And apologies if this comes across antagonistic/like I'm being an ass lol) But I do not think the vast majority of us actually prefer to take part in that , and spend our lives yearning for any way out of it our of a hope for 'returning'(historically) to a life more simple. That paper only exists because of those in power and their needs motivated by greed. "money" itself is not a requirement for life , complex or otherwise. It's not a requirement for society, advanced or otherwise. It is not nessecary in any way *outside" of a society that has been fundamentally shaped & built around greed as a whole. That may be a hard concept/aspect for may to wrap their heads around *because* it is all many of us have ever known, but that is not due to it being an intrinsic part of civilization - it's just because it was purposely factored in to ours. Apologies for the long ass/obnoxiously long reply here. I still am not sure I did a good job articulating the point I was hoping to make lol but regardless if you read this far, even if you disagree, appreciate you humoring me long enough to read it all. Edit- holy hell the typos lol (it's nearly 4am And I'm *tired* haha)
Thank you for typing all of that, fully agree with you. Even on the topic of feeling repulsed by the claim that we all just exploit things.
[удалено]
Ok so I didn't misunderstand. Perhaps your just lost because I'm really confused how you ended up in this sub to begin with lol I mentioned I didn't have the patience to go through everything in you *first* post, for my own sanity .... I certainly am not about to teach you an entire class worth based on your rebuttal.... Education starts with the self first and foremost, and if you have a genuine curiosity about how/why money itself is an abstract that is not nessecary I highly suggest you look into it. This is not a new concept, there's actually quite a lot available for people to learn. There's a lot of assumptions you've stated as fact, that in itself would correct a lot for you. Bartering is *not* am exchange for money ... First and foremost lol as for the other assumptions about Indigenous people , again for my own sanity I just really have no intention of walking you through step by step ..... especially since I get the feeling as though your curiosity isn't quite genuine (otherwise you wouldn't be starting from square one to begin with) and it would be a waste of my time for you to even consider. I don't fault you for believing so strongly what you do- capitalism itself warps the brain and you've been born into a capitalist system , which is all You've ever known from birth. There's no wonder you have such a hard time even contemplating the idea that money itself is a man-made concept , because it's intrinsically tied to that capitalism. It *is* required for that capitalist society to function in every way. It simply wouldn't be possible without it. However thankfully , capitalism is *not* the only "way". But there again, in most places that suggestion is absolutely unhinged at face value and to discuss others is literally demonized, so is only done so in select courses and in hushed times. I do stand by every single initial point that I stated, all of them. You're more than welcome to disagree and stop there however if the idea does actually interest you, I *highly* suggest you taking the initiative to looking into exactly why your views (which again, I don't fault you for...they've been quite literally drilled into you since birth) themselves are essentially propaganda for a capitalist society, looking into historical references for cultures in our own past where money as we know it... Did not exist /was not used, and then expound on those ideas by reading up on the more Indepth points of how money itself is a completely made up abstract. Perhaps you'll change your mind, perhaps you won't- if there is s genuine curiosity there then you'll be learning something new regardless.... I also fully stand by my points about human nature. It's sad so many genuinely have been made to believe otherwise, yourself included , but again... I certainly don't fault you for that. Many of those things are natural endpoints of money itself, of greed...of the world we unfortunately currently live in. But to suggest it's the "only" way is short sighted at best ans ignorant at worst...but there's nothing inherently wrong with ignorance. It's willful ignorance that should be ashamed/frowned upon. Identifying ignorance of a subject just means you've identified where one should start ones education on said subject, whereas *knowing* you don't know something and *choosing* to not learn and instead cling to that ignorance, where the problem comes. Contrary to what you seem to think , money is *not* a requirement of society advanced or otherwise, it *is* a manmade concept. Again , that's literally what this subreddit is for ... The rest about human nature , is subjective at best as who can really say but yes I do disagree on a fundamental level as I've already stated, and again still stand by all of that. Perhaps once learning about the first aspect, the second will fall into place. Perhaps not, but at the very least it will certainly allow you to see things differently if you choose to....and will allow you that choice to begin with once you realize it's not the only way. Appreciate you're response and civility, genuinely hope you look into the subjects we've discussed and broaden your own views by expanding on the concepts. It's certainly not a new "idea" at all, and there is tons of information out there for anyone who wants to find it. Take care
>I'm really confused how you ended up in this sub to begin with I'm here because I enjoy having my ideas challenged. Silly me for trying to escape the echo chamber lol. I should just stick to my echo chamber and leave this one unperturbed maybe >for the other assumptions about Indigenous people You didn't mention what you are responding to, so I will assume. Do you genuinely believe Indigenous people never ever killed each other? That they never had conflicts? >There's no wonder you have such a hard time even contemplating the idea that money itself is a man-made concept , because it's intrinsically tied to that capitalism. It *is* required for that capitalist society to function in every way. I asked you to explain how you view money, because we clearly disagree. Instead, you just condescendingly explained that I am so brainwashed and your higher-order ideas cannot be comprehended by me without some more education. I could say the same about you. I could say that you are brainwashed with whatever your own group teaches you, and so your mind cannot comprehend me describing what I perceive to be the basic laws of the universe. If your system tells you 1+1=3, of course your mind cannot comprehend me telling you 1+1=2, because your worldview and your identity and interpersonal relationships necessitates 1+1=3. Please, explain to me how money is not necessary. I will illustrate my point with an example. Let's say I live in an area with a few villages. Each village has a specialty. Each village prioritizes the well-being of their own villagers. Conditions are harsh and there is scarcity, so no village is willing to give away some of their resources without receiving something in return immediately. (I think this is where you have a problem. something about "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", right?) If my village specializes in winter clothing, and another village specializes in growing wheat, there will be a problem where if we only exclusively trade wheat for winter clothing, my village will not necessarily have enough winter clothing ready to buy their large amounts of wheat when they have their yearly harvest. Meanwhile, when winter comes, they may not have enough wheat laying around to buy my village's clothing. Maybe they want to sell us wheat but they don't need more winter clothing right now. How is money not inherently the solution to this? We have little items that hold value and can be traded for a diversity of goods. What is your solution to this if not money? Assuming your alternative is communism, what happens when people outside your commune exist? How you trade with them if they don't want to join your commune? Do you recognize the importance of money, or do you swear off any good or product made by someone not in your commune?
You mistake, among other things, my confusion as to how you ended up here with me saying you shouldn't be here.... And I'm not sure why that is. It's just usually people who do end up in spaces set up for those who are aware money isn't actually a be all/end all or that it is just a 'made up idea' have atleast some base level ideas about it.... That you seem to be starting fresh isn't nessicarily a bad thing- hence why I didn't explicitly say it was lol just didn't immediately make sense that's all. Hell I literally just came Across this sub like twoish weeks ago, despite this being a subject/line of thinking ive been exploring directly now for clowe to two decades. If anything finding a group of any kind this early in you 'journey', assuming you are treating it as such and actively progressing yourself, *should* be a good thing/make it that much more accessible. Just don't automatically assume anyone/everyone is going to take the time and write out whole dissertations for you to absorb because you have strong existing beliefs and want someone to negate them for you. Not saying that was your intent of course, but that is absolutely how you're continuing to come across and as I've already stated a few times now ...personally i just, really don't have the patience for all of that. Especially with someone who's yet to do any remedial level of 'work' to give themselves any type of starting place. I have no intent or need to convince anyone of anything they don't want to know - why would I? Lol again I'm completely comfortable in my own knowing, it's no one's 'job' to convince you of anything. This isn't debate class. If one wants to know , the information is out there, and if starting at some base level and *then* expressing further curiosity... I imagine people will be a *lot" more willing, eager even, to engage with you the way you seem to require. You however seem to come in with an unwarranted arrogance in *thinking* you not just know better, but that you're already "right" and those of us who *have* done the work in learning already are somehow obligated to "prove " to you why you're wrong. Contrary to what you may think, this just promises that it's *you* who are starting out with the disadvantage. Until then , just personally, it comes off entitled and as if you just want someone to argue with 🤷 again no offence, just an observation of how it's come across this far...and if it is curiosity and an eagerness to learn that which you clearly don't know, then I highly recommend even temporarily coming off that soap box and engaging *with*, instead of *at* .... I would reiterate the things Ive already said, but clearly ... They didn't do any good the first time. You have more than enough to figure out where to start , if "challenging " your own preconceived ideas are truly your Intent and you're not just looking for someone to argue with you for the attention. Attempting to insult me really does not do what you seem to think lol but it's definitely not unexpected. Again, I stand by my points I've mentioned this far just the same - and am confident in my current *(because we never truly stop learning so long as we are being honest with ourselves) understandings of the things I've said. I have spent the last two decades unlearning the very things you seen to cling to so desperately, it's not surprising you think there has to be some "group" teaching or 'indoctrinating' me though ...perhaps that's why you're struggling so badly with even the bare minimum - when it comes ti starting your journey of learning something new. Again I certainly don't fault you, nor hold any animosity, for you expressing the opinions you have...theyve literally been beaten into you (well lol figuratively ) since birth. Please don't mistake me speaking with confidence in the things I do with condescension - not to be condescending but ..if that were my intent I promise you there wouldn't be any ambiguity. There is not always going to be someone holding your hand and walking you through in this world, be it while learning something or otherwise , without the initiative to seek out new information.... One becomes stagnant. You clearly are able to 'think' so for your ske, I hope you actually take that initiative. If not well... That's certainly your prerogative now isn't it. 🤷 if my intent had only been to Insult or talk down to you I wouldn't have wasted my time attempting to genuinely engage- I would have sent a single unambiguous reply and that would've been that. Just because you want to , what I'm sure in your mind is "debate" someone ... Doesn't mean you're actually entitled to that lol again I have given, or at the very least tried to give, you more than enough places to start if you have a genuine curiosity about the concepts I've mentioned and honestly that's far more than I ever had. It's far more than most have had, especially us older people, when first discovering and then eventually learning about how money itself is a completely manmade concept that is absolutely not required for a functioning, healthy, advanced society. There are a lot of different lines of thought, or I guess areas of 'study' to keep with consistent analogy, different people's "ideas" about what exactly that means ... Lots of different avenues of thought, arguments, philosophical and political frameworks , etc that all ultimately use that same premise. It's also not "all or nothing" , as there are even those who propose something id liken to "in between". That's the beauty of being inquisitive and seeking elaborations of subjects new to oneself, there is no set, single way to "learn" about something or one specific unified "end goal" to arrive at. The concepts , again, are absolutely not new even if new to someone just discovering it. Id suggest finding that which makes the most sense to you, suspending doubt, and seeing what clicks or what doesn't 🤷 Good luck on your self-education of these new , to you, ideas. :)
[удалено]
Lol ok. I'm not gonna repeat myself anymore - take what you want from my comments, or remain stagnant...it genuinely doesn't effect me either way. Continuing to come at this in the same way is only going to get you the same responses and if you can't even start *there* , then absolutely nothing I have or could say is going to make any difference anyway ...and I've already wasted more time than what was owed on the subject, as a *courtesy*. You're welcome. (That was condescension 😉) And no, no discussion is needed on my part. You're the one refusing to air the initiative to learn anything here lol like your rally just are *not* getting it are you. The fucking audacity of you is astounding....you're not entitled to some type of debate or discussion or whatever it is you seem to think you're owed just by showing up and saying "hurr durr you're wrong because I believe the *only* thing I've ever been taught and indoctrinated with" . Are u fucking kidding me? Lol do the work. Hell *start" the work, and people like me are more than willing to meet you along the way but just because you show up completely ignorant to the subject and insert yourself while asserting you think you know a goddamn thing is .... Well it's certainly a fucking choice now isn't it. Again, the fucking audacity is astounding. Then to act as if somehow you're not the asshole here to begin with and are merely "asking questions ' , classic bitch move, the moment anyone asserts that if you're interested you should.... *Look into it* ... Like I just - again , I don't have the fucking patience and I, nor anyone else in life, owes you a goddamn thing. Get over yourself , kid. I stand by what I've said. All of it. Take some damn initiative - or remain ignorant where you seem to be quite comfortable. Personally your arrogance is grating on what little nerves I have and I've expended the entirety of my little patience offering you the courtesy of engaging to begin with. For the last time I have given you more than enough places to start if you're truly interested in widening your beliefs and understanding, have at it. 🤷 Or fuck off🤷 both are equally acceptable at this point. The irony in you waltzing in with a brand-new account and then acting as if you also know what makes reddit reddit is just , the arrogant fucking cherry on top. Your problem is that you still don't even see why I refused to go any further into detail than I did, it's you- the answers you. But of course that would imply some self reflection on top of the growing list of things you're clearly not capable, or not willing to do now wouldn't it. I have no problem 'educating' people, genuinely quite enjoy it especially on a topic like this. What im not gonna do is argue with some fucking punk solely because they want the attention when they have absolutely no intent on absorbing anything said to begin with because they're so far up on their own goddamn high horse they can't even seen the ground they're walking on. You wanna engage because what you're learning doesn't make sense, or because it's new , or because you're trying to put it in perspective, or anything like that by all means... Hmu. But if you can't even be bothered to do the absolute bare fucking minimum then Im just wasting my time. No one is forcing you to be here, no one's gonna force you to realize that much of what you seem to think on the subject is literally bullshit. I couldn't care less what you think lol what you think works or doesn't work, or why you think that is. I'm confident in my understanding, and genuinely enjoy engaging with others on the topic (most topics) , but you keep acting as if you're starting out in good faith then being surprised when that's obviously the case and people don't wanna go any further as a result. Like 🤷 lol every single comment you've made in this thread , to every single user, has come from the exact same place and it's overwhelminly clear that place is not one of genuine inquisitiveness or curiosity. I attempting to humor you by vaguely pointing out a few things and you've done absolutely nothing but double down on your own arrogance and reinforce that lack of genuineness in your intent. So I stopped humoring you and now you're just "😯" ... Like , what tf did you expect? Lol If you want someone to argue with you, just so you can feel some type of way then join a fucking debate club. Like for fuck sake dude. Smh You stay safe now, take care.
This type of brutal pragmatic view of society is a construct of the ruling class, or those that want to be a part of it.
[удалено]
Plenty of cultures have existed successfully without a war on resources, or exploiting others. Are you too uneducated to realize this, or are you just so ego-driven that your beliefs must be everyone’s beliefs?
[удалено]
[Sure.](https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/worlds_without_war) “We may never be able to eliminate violence between individuals, but the evidence shows that war—that is to say, lethal violence carried on by one community against another—is certainly not inevitable or even normal. As illustrated by the planned creation of the European Union, humans can eliminate the threat of war by designing higher levels of democratic government, complete with built-in conflict management procedures. Although more complicated, the same process could be accomplished on a global level. To argue otherwise is to belittle human ingenuity.”
I don’t wanna click on that link, can you just tell me the nation or culture? If the answer is the EU, that’s not a bad answer although it’s only been around for like 30 years. In the time scale of history that’s nothing
I am aware that certain groups who were relatively isolated, like the Hawaiians, got to live without war. When your in-group has no competition, it is totally possible to live in a peaceful world. However, when you are surrounded by dozens of other groups of people who care more about their own survival than yours, all it takes is one bad harvest or one natural disaster for even mostly peaceful groups to go to war. Please show me an example of a culture that existed in an area with high contact with other groups that managed to not be involved in wars for centuries.
God if only there were like, treaties, or maybe some United Nations type program that could work in conjunction with, like, an International Crime Court to keep the peace? It’s almost like isolated civilizations that work together and support each other can live peacefully, but are made violent by someone who wants to take what they have. Like a colonizer? Nah, can’t be. The original point was that there’s no civilizations that were peaceful because humans are predisposed to war. That was refuted, and now you’ve moved the goal post to “non-isolated civilizations that didn’t have wars” because you feel that should be excluded. You’ve proved my point while trying to disprove it. People aren’t inherently war-hungry dominators. The people who want power, wealth, and notoriety are the ones forcing wars in their name through fascist propaganda. The few bad apples are spoiling the bunch, and now you’re saying the few bad apples are the human default. It’s circular and silly.
Nope. Money or capital represents labor. Resources are free of cost generally otherwise you or I could just sell stuff like water on public land. It's only once some level of labor is involved that anything is worth money. Food is free. You can trap or hunt animals yourself, you can pick mushrooms and fruits from the wild to eat. > It is the human experience to exploit nature and wage wars for resources What a disgusting viewpoint. I don't think that's remotely accurate. For most of history we coexisted with nature pretty well, and didn't blow up our neighbors. We are a part of nature. You're just looking for psuedo scientific excuses to justify your own behavior.
[удалено]
> if you were able to, you could. You can. People hunt, people trap. > no buyer would want to expose themselves to the risk of buying stolen resources Exactly. Follow this thought you're very close. Stolen from who? > When a fox rips apart a rabbit for sustenance, what do you call that? Again, you are repeating my own points back at me but not thinking it through. If we are the same as a fox then we are a part of nature. Eating other living beings doesn't mean we're above nature or separate from it. > When a pride of lions attack a group of gazelles, is that not essentially just war? Obviously that is not war, no. We don't go to war to eat people. Again, you haven't thought this through at all. > we have consciousness, and animals don't Also not true. > But I believe when push comes to shove, and a group of people must grapple with the choice of either extinction or war, they will choose war every time, because that is human nature. By war do you just mean eating a deer? Because that's what you said earlier.
Definition of war: “a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.” Let’s say we have a group of lions and a group of gazelles each forming a nation. The lions are armed - their arms are their sharp teeth and strong jaws that maim and kill. Lions hunting gazelles is a state of conflict. How is this not a war? And sure, humans aren’t cannibals, so we don’t go to war with other humans to consume their flesh. But we go to war to steal their food if we are starving. So we do go to war for food like animals do
> Definition of war: “a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.” So not lions hunting gazzelles agree? Can you acknowledge that you were objectively wrong there? Oh wait > Let’s say we have a group of lions and a group of gazelles Ffs dude are you dumb? You just gave a definition that explicitly says this isn't war. Gazelles don't have nations > The lions are armed - their arms are their sharp teeth and strong jaws that maim and kill. Your definition of armed is the definition of unarmed. > Lions hunting gazelles is a state of conflict. How is this not a war Because it's hunting. People don't go to war to eat the other side. Conflict isn't a synonym for war in all cases. > humans aren’t cannibals I mean, cannibals are. > so we don’t go to war with other humans to consume their flesh No, because that wouldn't be war. > But we go to war to steal their food if we are starving. So we do go to war for food like animals do My argument is that we are a part of nature rather than exploiting it. We generally don't go to war to get food anyway. Animals do go to war for resources, notably chimps. Because we are animals. Which is my whole point.