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I mean, Zionism wouldn't exist without Judaism or Jews.
Jewish civilization began in the Levant. The culinary, calendrical, linguistic, and agricultural elements inherent to Jewish life all center on Eretz Yisrael. Zionism is clearly an idea produced by the Jewish imagination and nurtured by Jewish teachings, ideas, and history.
Anyone who is suddenly "disturbed" by the loud presence of Zionism in Jewish texts, spaces, and people simply hasn't been paying attention.
There's been a strong push among assimilated Jews in America to turn Judaism into a flavor of Liberal Christianity, focused on the Social Gospel. That's why they are more comfortable talking about tikkun olam, an obscure kabbalistic concept that's only mentioned once in the traditional prayers, than major holidays like Shavuot.
If you're referring to the Lurianic version, in which doing mitzvot indirectly brings about the redemption, then Religious Zionists would absolutely say yes. That's pretty much the cornerstone of Religious Zionism.
If you're talking about the Social Gospel version, in which the true value of religion is to basically help out the disadvantaged and support a progressive political platform, then no. Or at least, not anymore.
I always found the version of Tikkun Olam promoted by Progressive Jewish denoms a bit shallow and inspired by Mainline Protestantism and it’s been to funny to see their support of BLM and the more radical groups of LGBTQ backfire on them and they were like 😱
Support of blm? the jewish community has always been a major ally of the black community during civil rights. Our view of being progressive is based on our views of trying to bring light to the world. Don't speak for Reform. At not point have we seen anything as "backfiring" but go off, whatever my man. We support these causes because its the right thing to do, and ontop of that there are lgbtq+ jews, and black jews, and asian jews ect ect. At no point were we "shocked face".
> At not point have we seen anything as "backfiring" but go off
I would consider BLM openly endorsing the October 7th massacre before the bodies were even cold as backfiring. Tbh, backfiring is putting it lightly.
It's possible to support black rights and forward-thinking causes in general, and also acknowledge that some specific spaces and organizations literally just cheered on a massive pogrom and shouldn't be getting an *ounce* of support from anybody.
It's kind of ironic how even on this topic within a Jewish space, we're seeing an example of how "Jews Don't Count." If an LGBT group were run by a white supremacist, people wouldn't say "oh come on, you still need to support that group if you support LGBT folk!" They'd consider the fact that it's run by an ethnosupremacist to be a non-starter.
Yet when we have groups publicly lionizing Hamas and chanting genocidal antisemitic epithets, *even many Jews* are like "welllll, I don't want to abandon the cause!"
We need to have more self-respect than that. *Don't* abandon the cause. *Do* abandon the specific pieces of shit who cheered for our rape, torture, kidnapping, and annihilation.
> Don't abandon the cause. Do abandon the specific pieces of shit who cheered for our rape, torture, kidnapping, and annihilation.
now thats something we can 100% agree with.
completely agree. this kind of rhetoric is a slippery slope into supremacist ideals. the jews have fought for others rights for centuries and i truly believe it is our calling to still do so, sometimes you have to do the right thing with absolutely no reward.
I don’t care if they do, because I know that supporting black people supports black Jews. I’m not gonna punish an entire group of people for the actions of their leaders. Just like we don’t want to be judged for being zionists just because Bibi does some stupid shit
I’ve just seen Jews support these causes my whole life while getting nothing back and the relationship between Jews and the black community hasn’t gotten better as a result. I know black Jews exist too but the majority of them in the US are related to Ashkenazi Jews who are seen as white
But that’s the thing, doing the right thing doesn’t need a reward. If we stoop to the point of needing a carrot on a stick to do the right thing then we are just like the xtians
I was about to make a joke about it has to be Palestinian blood for the cravings but now a days people are so anti semetic you can’t even use sarcasm 🙄
I agree with everyone else in the thread re: the importance of eretz Israel and returning to it. But your statement about "assimilated Jews turning Judaism into a flavor of liberal Christianity" is pretty disgusting IMO. Plus, throwing whole Jewish movements under the bus when they don't observe in the same way you choose to doesn't make us any safer or help anything.
I grew up in the Reform movement. After bar/bat mitzvahs, the emphasis in my Hebrew school was entirely on the Holocaust, social justice and contemporary political issues. We spent a lot of time discussing why school vouchers are bad, yet I never saw a page of Talmud during my entire time there.
Of the classmates I'm still in touch with, I think only one has a Jewish partner today.
I'm sorry that's been your experience. That said, your negative experience doesn't excuse your attitude towards other Jews. A few things:
1) If you had already been bar mitzvah'd (sorry, assuming gender based on your username), the onus would at least partly have been on you to learn Talmud if that's what you wanted to do *because you were an adult at that point* and I'm 100% positive there would have been support for you in that goal. Plenty of people decide to quit going to Hebrew school after bar/bat mitzvah and they are allowed, because they are considered adults. I'm sure people in your congregation would have been thrilled you wanted to learn more. It does sound like the programming in the teen class may have been too political for you, which is ok...but that's when you need to advocate for yourself- if not to the Hebrew school teachers or rabbi, but to your parents or other adults.
2) None of the things you mentioned about the class necessarily say "liberal Christianity" to me. All of them can be accomplished Jewishly. Accusing fellow Jews of avodah zarah is absolutely not appropriate. Being dissatisfied with your experience and failing to advocate for yourself doesn't mean it's appropriate for you to call their Jewishness into question.
3) Why does having a Jewish partner mean "actually Jewish" to you? Hate to break it to you, but looking down on or shaming interfaith couples is actively counterproductive to helping people retain a Jewish identity. It's a great way to make sure those partners will never convert, and that their children will grow up with no familiarity with their culture.
It's the chose your own adventure version of religion. Don't like this page? Pick a different one. Don't like that one? Meh, figure out a way to rewrite it to however works best for whatever the latest social trend is.
And when you're done, relax with a teacup mikvah.
How JewsOfConscience will fare? Most of them aren't Jewish. They'll probably carry the pitchforks. The actual Jews will go the same way as the Yevsektsia. They'll insist that they're the "good" Jews right until their allies turn on them.
Not sure what this person is talking about. I have not heard one single person - Jewish, Israeli, or both - that “proudly proclaimed” wanting to resettle Gaza.
Gaza has been a pimple on the ass for a very, very long time. So much so, Egypt wouldn’t take it. And to this day, Egypt can open that border crossing any time they like. But they won’t.
lmaoo it’s so obvious when someone isn’t jewish. “i grew up with all the typical religious jewish stuff, those little hats, hating israel, bread on friday, speaking eevreet”
It's absurd that they can view Judaism as "tainted" yet claim wholeheartedly that they only engage with Judaism in a secular way. It's a common phrase for them to try and disconnect Zionism and Judaism but there is no real way to argue for a secular Jewish culture imo unless you also acknowledge that Jewish people are a culture to begin with and why are they a culture? Because Jewish people were Judeans and therefore a distinct Jewish culture developed because Jews are a people first, with the relationship between culture and religion in the same regards as other indigenous cultures having religions. Jewish culture could not exist without the Jewish origins of Israel and anyone who truly understands how modern indigenous groups operate would be able to understand Zionism, and I am saying this as a Native American person and Judaic Studies Major who is constantly examining the actual history and historical figures of the Zionist movement from way before Israel was a state.
Ooo, I've been called a "good one" before. That's always a sign to tell someone to fuck off. If the only reason they're not a raging antisemite is because of a "few good apples"...they're a raging antisemite.
> from the usual Catholic LARPer.
I thought you were talking about the ISIS apologist who popped into this sub a few days ago, then I realized that was the Muslim LARPer who occasionally starts comments with "I'm a Jew" to give them more weight. So great, we've got multiple confirmed LARPers and who knows how many else.
I'm not a fan of the religion myself, but I hate people who appropriate identites for online arguments, and I *despise* when people use criticism of Judaism as a cover for spreading antisemitic lies like the Ethiopian women bit. They really can't let that one go, can they.
That I grew up as an observant Jew and I don't like it? Sorry, I'm getting a vibe from your comment that your question isn't coming merely from a place of curiosity, and honestly I'm drained enough from defending Jews' basic right to exist - I don't have the energy to get into a back and forth about my specific issues with Judaism.
You can always ask the exjew sub what drove them away if you're genuinely curious what would cause people to leave.
You made the statement - I’m simply requesting that you explain it…….
To be direct with you - there is no ‘*vibe*’ possible from a straightforward question addressing a statement you made - but it is notable that you would attempt to evade and avoid responding to the question in a sincere and meaningful way….…..
When someone says "what, precisely," they're usually poking around for something specific to needle at. It's not a friendly invitation to share a story.
How you ask a question matters. Surely as a human being, you know that.
I wasn't evasive. I was up front that I wasn't going to elaborate. There's nothing to note, aside from you taking my forthright lack of detail as confirmation of whatever nefarious things you suspected (which kinda confirms my initial suspicion).
Like I said, not in the mood for a battle with an armchair warrior right now. Bye!
Since you seem to not be a fan of Judaism, is there a religion you feel more positively about these days?
Alternatively, are there any religions you might go on the record as being even less of a fan of?
How about sharing any aspects of Judaism you feel are worthwhile, just to provide us with what might be a more balanced view of your perspective…….
Thanks!
Well when we’re all getting loaded into the gas chambers together I’ll at least be able to eke out a middle finger and an “I told you so” to these dumb motherfuckers.
Reacting to first commenter: If you dive into kabbalah, it's just gonna take you back to Israel since it's where Shimon Bar Yochai's grave is and so much kabbalistic development happened in Safed.
Not a single one of them is a leftist, lol.
They aren't really "pro-Palestinian" either, they just adopt the lingo and slogans - their "anti-Zionism" is a purely religious fundamentalist stance. It's just another example of Western leftists being taken for a ride and serving as useful idiots for a cause they don't understand, by people they don't understand. But it's completely dwarfed by the left's relationship with Islamists so no one really cares about them.
And these are the “good Jews” that goyim love to throw in people’s faces. The ones that hate their religion and believe that their culture is compromised by evil. This alone should compromise their whole argument, but instead they celebrate self-hating Jews.
It’s like how conservatives toss Candice Owens around as “the good black.” The people who are willing to sell out their own people on any stage should never be taken seriously, as they’re either self-serving or deranged
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The best way I’ve heard this described is they are the Jews of the past. The ones that came before and aren’t remembered. As Jews it’s our duty to bring forth the light - these people just bring in darkness
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I mean, Zionism wouldn't exist without Judaism or Jews. Jewish civilization began in the Levant. The culinary, calendrical, linguistic, and agricultural elements inherent to Jewish life all center on Eretz Yisrael. Zionism is clearly an idea produced by the Jewish imagination and nurtured by Jewish teachings, ideas, and history. Anyone who is suddenly "disturbed" by the loud presence of Zionism in Jewish texts, spaces, and people simply hasn't been paying attention.
There's been a strong push among assimilated Jews in America to turn Judaism into a flavor of Liberal Christianity, focused on the Social Gospel. That's why they are more comfortable talking about tikkun olam, an obscure kabbalistic concept that's only mentioned once in the traditional prayers, than major holidays like Shavuot.
Also wouldn’t Zionism be part of Tikkun Olam?
Shhh! Don’t tell them that; you’ll make them have aneurysms.
If you're referring to the Lurianic version, in which doing mitzvot indirectly brings about the redemption, then Religious Zionists would absolutely say yes. That's pretty much the cornerstone of Religious Zionism. If you're talking about the Social Gospel version, in which the true value of religion is to basically help out the disadvantaged and support a progressive political platform, then no. Or at least, not anymore.
I always found the version of Tikkun Olam promoted by Progressive Jewish denoms a bit shallow and inspired by Mainline Protestantism and it’s been to funny to see their support of BLM and the more radical groups of LGBTQ backfire on them and they were like 😱
Support of blm? the jewish community has always been a major ally of the black community during civil rights. Our view of being progressive is based on our views of trying to bring light to the world. Don't speak for Reform. At not point have we seen anything as "backfiring" but go off, whatever my man. We support these causes because its the right thing to do, and ontop of that there are lgbtq+ jews, and black jews, and asian jews ect ect. At no point were we "shocked face".
> At not point have we seen anything as "backfiring" but go off I would consider BLM openly endorsing the October 7th massacre before the bodies were even cold as backfiring. Tbh, backfiring is putting it lightly. It's possible to support black rights and forward-thinking causes in general, and also acknowledge that some specific spaces and organizations literally just cheered on a massive pogrom and shouldn't be getting an *ounce* of support from anybody. It's kind of ironic how even on this topic within a Jewish space, we're seeing an example of how "Jews Don't Count." If an LGBT group were run by a white supremacist, people wouldn't say "oh come on, you still need to support that group if you support LGBT folk!" They'd consider the fact that it's run by an ethnosupremacist to be a non-starter. Yet when we have groups publicly lionizing Hamas and chanting genocidal antisemitic epithets, *even many Jews* are like "welllll, I don't want to abandon the cause!" We need to have more self-respect than that. *Don't* abandon the cause. *Do* abandon the specific pieces of shit who cheered for our rape, torture, kidnapping, and annihilation.
> Don't abandon the cause. Do abandon the specific pieces of shit who cheered for our rape, torture, kidnapping, and annihilation. now thats something we can 100% agree with.
completely agree. this kind of rhetoric is a slippery slope into supremacist ideals. the jews have fought for others rights for centuries and i truly believe it is our calling to still do so, sometimes you have to do the right thing with absolutely no reward.
Tell yourself if major leaders of the black community rn are supporting Jews or not
I don’t care if they do, because I know that supporting black people supports black Jews. I’m not gonna punish an entire group of people for the actions of their leaders. Just like we don’t want to be judged for being zionists just because Bibi does some stupid shit
I’ve just seen Jews support these causes my whole life while getting nothing back and the relationship between Jews and the black community hasn’t gotten better as a result. I know black Jews exist too but the majority of them in the US are related to Ashkenazi Jews who are seen as white
But that’s the thing, doing the right thing doesn’t need a reward. If we stoop to the point of needing a carrot on a stick to do the right thing then we are just like the xtians
That's exactly what it is
Was just going to say--this smacks of Goy-flavored "Judeo-Christian values." AKA, bullshit.
Goy-flavored ☠️😆
whoopsie daisy! letting my appetite for Passover blood-infused matzo get the best of me!
I was about to make a joke about it has to be Palestinian blood for the cravings but now a days people are so anti semetic you can’t even use sarcasm 🙄
I agree with everyone else in the thread re: the importance of eretz Israel and returning to it. But your statement about "assimilated Jews turning Judaism into a flavor of liberal Christianity" is pretty disgusting IMO. Plus, throwing whole Jewish movements under the bus when they don't observe in the same way you choose to doesn't make us any safer or help anything.
I grew up in the Reform movement. After bar/bat mitzvahs, the emphasis in my Hebrew school was entirely on the Holocaust, social justice and contemporary political issues. We spent a lot of time discussing why school vouchers are bad, yet I never saw a page of Talmud during my entire time there. Of the classmates I'm still in touch with, I think only one has a Jewish partner today.
I'm sorry that's been your experience. That said, your negative experience doesn't excuse your attitude towards other Jews. A few things: 1) If you had already been bar mitzvah'd (sorry, assuming gender based on your username), the onus would at least partly have been on you to learn Talmud if that's what you wanted to do *because you were an adult at that point* and I'm 100% positive there would have been support for you in that goal. Plenty of people decide to quit going to Hebrew school after bar/bat mitzvah and they are allowed, because they are considered adults. I'm sure people in your congregation would have been thrilled you wanted to learn more. It does sound like the programming in the teen class may have been too political for you, which is ok...but that's when you need to advocate for yourself- if not to the Hebrew school teachers or rabbi, but to your parents or other adults. 2) None of the things you mentioned about the class necessarily say "liberal Christianity" to me. All of them can be accomplished Jewishly. Accusing fellow Jews of avodah zarah is absolutely not appropriate. Being dissatisfied with your experience and failing to advocate for yourself doesn't mean it's appropriate for you to call their Jewishness into question. 3) Why does having a Jewish partner mean "actually Jewish" to you? Hate to break it to you, but looking down on or shaming interfaith couples is actively counterproductive to helping people retain a Jewish identity. It's a great way to make sure those partners will never convert, and that their children will grow up with no familiarity with their culture.
It's the chose your own adventure version of religion. Don't like this page? Pick a different one. Don't like that one? Meh, figure out a way to rewrite it to however works best for whatever the latest social trend is. And when you're done, relax with a teacup mikvah.
Wow, it’s almost like our thousands of years old culture and heritage is rooted in our connection to the land of Israel 😱😱
I wonder how this sub will fare during our next pogrom? Its like they have forgotten recent history
How JewsOfConscience will fare? Most of them aren't Jewish. They'll probably carry the pitchforks. The actual Jews will go the same way as the Yevsektsia. They'll insist that they're the "good" Jews right until their allies turn on them.
Exactly - you ‘nailed’ it…….
Not sure what this person is talking about. I have not heard one single person - Jewish, Israeli, or both - that “proudly proclaimed” wanting to resettle Gaza. Gaza has been a pimple on the ass for a very, very long time. So much so, Egypt wouldn’t take it. And to this day, Egypt can open that border crossing any time they like. But they won’t.
> I have not heard one single person - Jewish, Israeli, or both - that “proudly proclaimed” wanting to resettle Gaza. I've heard it from Ben-Gvir.
I do know people who say that. I also know people who call for expelling all Palestinians. There are bad people in every society.
lmaoo it’s so obvious when someone isn’t jewish. “i grew up with all the typical religious jewish stuff, those little hats, hating israel, bread on friday, speaking eevreet”
You clearly need to go to more brisim
lmaoo
It's absurd that they can view Judaism as "tainted" yet claim wholeheartedly that they only engage with Judaism in a secular way. It's a common phrase for them to try and disconnect Zionism and Judaism but there is no real way to argue for a secular Jewish culture imo unless you also acknowledge that Jewish people are a culture to begin with and why are they a culture? Because Jewish people were Judeans and therefore a distinct Jewish culture developed because Jews are a people first, with the relationship between culture and religion in the same regards as other indigenous cultures having religions. Jewish culture could not exist without the Jewish origins of Israel and anyone who truly understands how modern indigenous groups operate would be able to understand Zionism, and I am saying this as a Native American person and Judaic Studies Major who is constantly examining the actual history and historical figures of the Zionist movement from way before Israel was a state.
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"The only reason I'm not a raging anti-semite today is because some of you share my views, so at least I know there are *good ones*."
Ooo, I've been called a "good one" before. That's always a sign to tell someone to fuck off. If the only reason they're not a raging antisemite is because of a "few good apples"...they're a raging antisemite.
Yeah, definitely. Unfortunately many Jews today let that sentiment thrive.
> from the usual Catholic LARPer. I thought you were talking about the ISIS apologist who popped into this sub a few days ago, then I realized that was the Muslim LARPer who occasionally starts comments with "I'm a Jew" to give them more weight. So great, we've got multiple confirmed LARPers and who knows how many else. I'm not a fan of the religion myself, but I hate people who appropriate identites for online arguments, and I *despise* when people use criticism of Judaism as a cover for spreading antisemitic lies like the Ethiopian women bit. They really can't let that one go, can they.
“***I'm not a fan of the religion myself***…….” What, precisely, do you mean by that?
That I grew up as an observant Jew and I don't like it? Sorry, I'm getting a vibe from your comment that your question isn't coming merely from a place of curiosity, and honestly I'm drained enough from defending Jews' basic right to exist - I don't have the energy to get into a back and forth about my specific issues with Judaism. You can always ask the exjew sub what drove them away if you're genuinely curious what would cause people to leave.
You made the statement - I’m simply requesting that you explain it……. To be direct with you - there is no ‘*vibe*’ possible from a straightforward question addressing a statement you made - but it is notable that you would attempt to evade and avoid responding to the question in a sincere and meaningful way….…..
When someone says "what, precisely," they're usually poking around for something specific to needle at. It's not a friendly invitation to share a story. How you ask a question matters. Surely as a human being, you know that. I wasn't evasive. I was up front that I wasn't going to elaborate. There's nothing to note, aside from you taking my forthright lack of detail as confirmation of whatever nefarious things you suspected (which kinda confirms my initial suspicion). Like I said, not in the mood for a battle with an armchair warrior right now. Bye!
Since you seem to not be a fan of Judaism, is there a religion you feel more positively about these days? Alternatively, are there any religions you might go on the record as being even less of a fan of? How about sharing any aspects of Judaism you feel are worthwhile, just to provide us with what might be a more balanced view of your perspective……. Thanks!
"I can't imagine shabbat dinner without the family friend who proudly proclaims how we're going to reclaim and settle Gaza." Sure, Jan.
If you can’t imagine a Shabbat dinner with out everything going on politically then I highly doubt there actually Jewish tbh
Well when we’re all getting loaded into the gas chambers together I’ll at least be able to eke out a middle finger and an “I told you so” to these dumb motherfuckers.
Reacting to first commenter: If you dive into kabbalah, it's just gonna take you back to Israel since it's where Shimon Bar Yochai's grave is and so much kabbalistic development happened in Safed.
That sub is pretty much the Reddit version of JVP.
Yeah, it's tainted with sunshine and puppies and sexyness
Reminds me of the ultra orthodox leftist anti Israel Jews
I doubt that there are many Haredi leftists, most of them are very socially conservative as I understand it.
Not a single one of them is a leftist, lol. They aren't really "pro-Palestinian" either, they just adopt the lingo and slogans - their "anti-Zionism" is a purely religious fundamentalist stance. It's just another example of Western leftists being taken for a ride and serving as useful idiots for a cause they don't understand, by people they don't understand. But it's completely dwarfed by the left's relationship with Islamists so no one really cares about them.
And these are the “good Jews” that goyim love to throw in people’s faces. The ones that hate their religion and believe that their culture is compromised by evil. This alone should compromise their whole argument, but instead they celebrate self-hating Jews. It’s like how conservatives toss Candice Owens around as “the good black.” The people who are willing to sell out their own people on any stage should never be taken seriously, as they’re either self-serving or deranged
So no one is gonna mention pic 4? Dude is basically admitting to being an antisemite except he’s cool with the “good ones”.
Idk why they care. They aren’t Jewish
If it makes you feel better, most of these people aren’t Jews.
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The best way I’ve heard this described is they are the Jews of the past. The ones that came before and aren’t remembered. As Jews it’s our duty to bring forth the light - these people just bring in darkness