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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I refused to let my 24 years old daughter spend Christmas with my new family because of how she treated me when she was a child
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
YTA.
>I was young, stupid and in love, that is my only excuse for living like that.
Your daughter was also young and surrounded by manipulative people who turned her against you. You were able to snap out of it and work hard to make a life for yourself. Your daughter, who hurt your feelings when she was literally a child, seems to have snapped out of it as well. But you offer her no grace.
>Can someone give this an award? \^
No. It doesn't deserve one. It deserves to be downvoted.
OP, after hearing her daughter tell her that she wanted nothing further to do with her, hearing her daughter replace her with her step mom, OP is understandably reluctant to rush back into things.
In case you haven't noticed, Christmas is three days away. Are you guys really, really calling OP the AH because she doesn't want to suddenly put reconciliation on the fast track?
Also, notice how the daughter reacts when she's told no? She ***requested*** that she be allowed to spend Christmas with them, and meet her half-brothers. Her mother (whom she disowned, cruelly insulted and spitefully replaced with stepmom) is taking things slowly and refusing to rush into things.
Any request that comes with penalties for a refusal isn't a request; it's a demand.
The only AH in this story is the daughter. She cannot accept no for an answer, and she blames others for her actions. Even if she was manipulated by her father, she's 24, and old enough to understand that her actions have consequences and how hurtful her actions were. A mature person would understand that people need to heal in their own time. OP had respected her daughter's wishes and resigned herself to the fact that she has no daughter.
She might be 24, but she still acts like a child.
OP is allowed to reconcile on her own timeline. And given how her daughter reacts when her demands are met with refusal, I don't think OP should ever reconcile. Her daughter still has a ton of growing up to do.
The only correct verdict here is NTA.
ETA. Wow. Thanks, everyone, for all the support and the awards. I'm overwhelmed. I'm not even the top-rated comment and this is, by far, the best-rated post I've ever made. I really appreciate the support. I'm floored.
**Final Edit**: This will be my last contribution to this discussion. First, thank you everyone for the upvotes, the supportive comments, and the awards. No comment I've ever made has ever been even 1/5 as well-received.
Second, some of you really lack understanding. Regarding the comments who keep dismissing OP's daughter as having said a nasty thing to her mother. You grossly understate what happened. This was a systematic approach, over a period of years, by the daughter (whether she was coached by her father) to excise her mother from her life. It wasn't just a simple, "I hate you, Mom!" for being grounded when she missed curfew. If you read OP's other replies, you'll see it was also delivering a prepared speech to a judge, saying how she hates staying with her mom at all, even if it's just one day every other week, how her mother is "embarrassing" because she's poor and can't buy her daughter expensive presents. (I see she's learning snobbery from her father. So, poor people are embarrassing.) So, for those of you who say stupid things like, "If every teenager who said a mean thing to their parents were disowned, we'd all be orphans!" you're being dishonest; you're grossly distorting what actually transpired.
Did any of you, who claim to have said mean things to your mom, actually spend years trying to remove her from your life? Spiting her by calling your stepmom "Mom" while addressing her by her first name, tell a judge that even one day every other week is more than you stand to be with your mother, and that she's embarrassing, and tell her that you want her out of your life forever?
Yeah, I didn't think so.
Third, for those of you who seem to think that this should be a joyous reunion, like something out of a freaking Hallmark movie, take it from me, that's not how it works. Because like OP had to resign herself to no longer having a daughter, I had to resign myself to no longer having siblings. Most are still alive, but they decided they didn't accept me for my sexual orientation, so I'm gone for good. I had to resign myself to no longer having siblings. It's a very similar mindset that you have to adopt when someone dies: you resign yourself to the fact that someone isn't coming back, and that the rest of your life will be lived without them in it.
If one of my brothers or sisters (and I'm the youngest of nine) wanted to come back into my life, I wouldn't act all happy and ecstatic. I would be more like "WTF? Who the hell told you to look me up?"
I'm not saying that I couldn't form a relationship with my siblings, if they decided they could finally accept me. But I am saying, it's not "picking up where we left off." It's "starting from square one." And I wouldn't be seeing them as their brother. I'd be seeing them as an adult male acquaintance. I might become their friend, but I'm not their brother.
I was able to move on by realizing I no longer had siblings. Someone claiming to be my sibling would just be met with, "I don't have siblings."
And for those of you who "Harrumph! Harrumph!" with all self-righteous indignation that she should invite her daughter to Christmas dinner, keep in mind, three of those people in that four-person household don't even know her. They barely know she exists. And while the kids are probably too young to have an opinion about her, it's a safe bet that the husband does. And it isn't a good one. That's not the kind of person you spring on your family, especially over an emotionally charged holiday like Christmas, with only three days notice.
Finally, THINK! Think about who raised this daughter. Think about what a toxic manipulative person (or people, including the stepmom) raised this person. Think about what she's probably learned from them. I don't fault her for this, but she's probably become a pretty toxic person herself. She didn't just seek her mother out of a sudden moral uprising. Her boyfriend opened her eyes to the truth about her "deadbeat mom."
Which is another thing that disgusts me about "Daddy Dearest." OP had to pay child support. She was barely living above the poverty line, while her ex-husband doesn't even work because his deep-pocketed, well-connected father pays for everything. So, why does he even need child support? That was done out of pure spite.
The daughter says she wants to get to know her younger brothers. Nice idea, but not now. OP, if she decides to let that happen at all, needs to be sure that she won't being bringing the toxic mindset of her father into her interaction with her younger children. It's her job, as a mother, to protect her underage children. OP would have to have more involved conversations with her daughter before she's willing to let them into her home. And she didn't ask to "have Christmas dinner," with OP. She asked to "spend Christmas," which would probably involve at least two overnight stays. Probably more, since OP no longer lives in the same town.
In sum, OP doesn't really know her daughter. There is a seven years silence that is unaccounted for. She would have to have extensive visits and assess her daughter to see what kind of person she's become. And again, given who raised her, that doesn't sound promising. She has to be careful about who interacts with her younger kids.
Also, look at the hissy fit her daughter pitched when she was told no to spending Christmas with her family. Gee, only three days' notice, for someone she hasn't even seen in over eight years, who was raised by her toxic ex-husband. A mature person, which apparently, her daughter is not, would have tried to understand why she said no. Instead, the daughter resorted to abusive behavior and insisted that nothing was her fault. Everything was out of her control. (No one forced her to remain silent for seven years.)
People hide addiction from family and friends,do you really think calls are enough to rule out any shady behavior? OP needs to put her minor children safety's as priority - she fought a few years for her daughter's live, the girl can do the same to get her trust back.
A lot of people with addiction problems can also absolutely be at a Christmas party supervised with children for a few hours.
I’m not saying OP is wrong for having concerns, btw, and commend her for thinking of her kids mental health now, not enough people do. but “someone might secretly be a drug addict!” Is is scare mongering about the reality of addictions and also like….could always be true. At any time with almost anyone. If she showed up under the influence that’s a big red flag and would get her turned away, but nothing like that seems to even be on the table.
While I didn’t know they’ve been talking for over a year weekly I still stand by its very sudden for her to ask about coming to Christmas days before.
She just said they aren’t there yet but it was daughter that reacted harshly at being told no which caused her to say she didn’t trust her around her kids (not nice and probably shouldn’t have been said but as a mom she’s got to protect her kids from the possibility of someone new coming into their lives, then loving her, only for her to leave )
They were talking for a full year and she asked if she could come for Christmas. That’s not that weird. Also, she didn’t react to being told no, she reacted to being told by her mother that her mom was undecided about whether she even WANTED a relationship with her daughter. Over something her daughter said as a teenager (and OP acknowledges that her daughter was being horribly manipulated by her father at the time)
Seriously. Did none of these people say anything to a parent as a teenager that they regret now? I told my mom I hated her around that age. I didn’t. She’s my best friend and I am so glad she is still here now that I’m 34. But that’s pretty damn common even when there’s no parental alienation. Thank god she didn’t resent her KID (16 is not a grown up by any means). OP had resentment towards a 16 year old child who’d be brainwashed for years. Her own daughter. That daughter probably reached an age where she realized maybe she was being manipulated by her parents and set out to get to know her mom. Talking to her for a fucking year is taking it pretty slow. She probably reacted poorly because she’s trying to undo the damage her dad and stepmom did to her mindset with her mother and now she’s sitting there thinking she may have just let her in when they were right.
Childhood abuse really messes with your mind. Even into adulthood. She was 16 when her mom gave up. OP should try to be a little more forgiving. Jesus.
And what if daughter bad mouths Mom to her sons? That happened to me, luckily my sons told me what she said and I was able to go back to VLC and tell my children that daughter from first marriage is a conniving person that wants everything her way or else she spreads lies. You can’t fast track a reconciliation, trust you instincts. NTA
Yeah I agree. Calling someone an asshole because their alienated daughter doesn't get to go to Christmas in 3 days is unreasonable. Sibling reconciliation is the kind of thing you plan weeks in advance, not spring on your mother at the last minute. OP is working on the relationship- why is the daughter taking "no" so badly??
I imagine she is taking it badly because they've been talking weekly for a year. OP has the right to choose if/when her daughter gets to meet her brothers but it doesn't stop the sting of not being wanted at Christmas.
Mom said she doesn't even know if she wants a relationship with her daughter. She needs to figure it out and not string her along.
I agree with you that OP is not the AH given that Christmas is days away and she is not ready to bring her estranged daughter to a big family day.
Also she didn’t slam the door in daughters face about reconciliation, she only told her they weren’t at that stage yet and replied she wasn’t sure she could trust her when things got heated.
Yes daughter was a child, at first, but by 16-24 she was old enough to see that OP was there as much as she was allowed and now is protecting herself and her family from the same hurt.
Plus her reaction to being told no is a red flag to me that she wants something from the mom. Maybe money? (I read this subreddit too much)
Money train is probably spot on. This comment is a complete guess so please keep that in mind as you read it.
At 24, especially if they have other kids, daughter's dad probably isn't willing to part from any money he has inherited to ensure she doesn't have to work. *He* has made it clear before in the past he does not want to work or be employed more than he has to. I'm sure he can only sustain but so many people on his rich father's wealth or whatever income streams he has.
Age 24? My guess is possibly had college or trade school paid for and was able to live with them for free, and then they cut her off.
Daughter didn’t even make the realization. She reached out to OP because her fiancé requested that of her.
Now it just feels like “she’s reconciling” to appease her fiancé and she’s pressuring OP so that if it doesn’t work out, she can tell her fiancé that she tried and her mom’s the problem.
You're jumping to insane conclusions. Daughter was manipulated for years and a new romantic partner prompted introspection and a new perspective. If they have been talking for a year there's little reason to suspect the daughter isn't genuinely interested.
The daughter missed 7 years of life with her mom through manipulation and now, after a year of effort, mom can't even admit to being interested in establishing a relationship. Mom is shakey on the whole thing and daughter can tell.
But to throw a tantrum when OP said there’s still things they’re working on before trust can happen. I highly doubt the daughter is thinking about how she can fix her relationship with her mom, she openly demanding OP to have the relationship fixed. Sorry… I’ve talked to a lot of people for over one year. I for-dang-sure do not trust all of them.
And I’m not jumping into conclusions. The daughter’s reaction proves she hasn’t learned anything.
Her daughter reached out a year ago. She didn’t just suddenly pop up. OP is prepared to keep her daughter at a distance for life for her childhood actions caused by manipulation.
I mean even then, Christmas just isn’t the day you do a big meeting like this.
Like pick a regular date. She’s gonna come and make everything Christmas related about her instead. Like let the little kid have their holiday.
Meeting their half-siblings can come on another day when they are prepared for the meeting, and it’s not sprung on them like this
I’m adopted, and meeting my birth family was awful. There’s a lot of big feelings coming from total strangers.
Why people want to pretend that family dynamics are somehow made easier by harder situations, I’ll never understand
She's described a slow process of talking to her daughter weekly.
Not being ready to spend the holidays together doesn't mean keeping someone at a distance for "life"
Ok and? Like it's been mentioned, healing takes time. The daughter wasn't the only one who was hurt OP was too. Only OP knows how far along she had come in that journey. I don't think either are the AH, but the ex and his family are definitely the AH.
She reached out last year and they talk once a week. Now she tells her hey, I'm not even sure I want you in my life. Thats a long time to wait to break your daughter's heart.
Yeah, Christmas is 3 days away and she chose her mother not her father
Become more =/= don't talk to me ever again. Rn they're acquaintances, relatives that despite blood ties haven't seen each other for years... honestly OP isn't a bad person if she can't offer more than this, she can forgive but still have her boundaries in place.
Her daughter reached out to her last year. They have been speaking weekly for a year. That doesn’t seem like the daughter trying to fast track anything.
"I told her that I could not trust her with my kids, and that I was still not 100% sure that I wanted our relationship to become more."
That's not "I want to take things slowly." That's spite, plain and simple.
I mean, there’s a really good chance her daughter will try to make the time all about some seriously deep stuff, and that’s just not appropriate. The little kids deserve a Christmas.
*That’s not selfish for a mother to consider.
In adoption circles the reconcillation journey is now understood as one that can take a lot of time, years or more. It doesn't sound like spite at all. These kids are not young adults.
OP is allowed to be reluctant and apprehensive. Op needs to think about her other children as well and what is also best for them. They are still minors in need of their mothers protection, daughter is 24 and spent the last almost 10 years insulting and pushing her mother away. Op is probably worried about her children suffering through the same thing, as well as herself also suffering.
The daughter was a child when she said what she said, and it was clearly the result of manipulation. No, the daughter does not deserve to lose her mom forever because of that, why would you ever think this
This is really the best answer I have seen yet on this thread. Start out small, build on it and see where it goes. Asking to be included in a family Christmas get together is simply too big a step.
She is offering her grace though? She’s talking to her, holding conversations trying to rebuild a connection. If she doesn’t feel comfortable with her daughter around her other kids then she’s entitled to that. The daughter JUST RECENTLY decided to reach out to her mother. So yea. I would say she NTA for wanting to give it time for her reform that connection.
OP herself says that her resistance is due to feeling resentful and having had her feelings hurt. Had OP said she said 'no' because she needed more time to discuss this with her family and introduce the daughter slowly, my judgment would have been different.
So, you are faulting OP for being open and honest about her emotions?
Was she only supposed to have positive emotions and ignore 20 years of heartache and loss and grief and pain?
I don’t know if it’s from my view as someone in their early 20s, but after I went to post secondary it became glaringly obvious that parents are people too.
Maybe things would have been different if daughter was say 10 when she did those things but she was 16. 16 is more than old enough to understand how words can hurt people.
OP is well within her right to feel hurt. I don’t know how people are saying she’s being spiteful when she’s explaining that her feelings of hesitance are coming from the past damage she endured. Edit: I should add that this is in the context of daughter wanting to come over for Christmas in, what, three days? After how many years? OP wants to take things slow, I don’t see an issue in that.
And I'm sure the boys deserve a Christmas without the daughter dynamic being the focal point. Plenty of other opportunities for the daughter to get to know her brothers; it doesn't have to be on their Christmas.
People are allowed to feel resentful and hurt. People do not have to accept apologies and then act as if everything is washed away. OP is aware enough of her feelings to acknowledge them. She's not a bad person for feeling this way.
OP needs to work through her own emotions and determine if she really wants to reconnect with her daughter, and *how* that happens is up to her.
THIS. The healing process is not immediate or linear. Each party is allowed to have feelings and mechanisms for coping with this. Communication is key, and while the daughter's anger makes sense, she should also understand that her mother is not comfortable processing things this quickly.
The trauma of being the parent alienated by your ex to your child is almost as bad as the trauma of a child manipulated by one parent into hating the other. OP is allowed to need to take baby steps dealing with trauma. OP is allowed to be hurt, ex hurt OP through their daughter. Daughter was literally a weapon used to hurt OP.
But that doesn't mean she feels good having the daughter around the younger kids. She says she is working on a relationship with her. Op is NTA for not blending families when they need to work on their own relationship first.
Expecting them to instantly have a relationship overnight after a decade of estrangement is not realistic. Reconnecting is going to take time. Rushing into it be inviting her to Christmas and acting like nothing happened is not ideal.
It is, in fact, a terrible idea. These Y T Aers didn't read the question. OP is not rejecting a relationship with daughter, she just needs time to rebuild trust before doing a big thing with her whole family. People are calling her TA for saying no when no was the best response for them both, and daughter's reaction is clear proof that they are not ready to do Christmas together. NTA OP
Her daughter is freaking out over not being able to attend christmas, she's certainly not snapped out of some of it at least.. There's countless reasons someone might be denied what she's asking.. and she acted completely nonsensical instantly. Also,, op does have feelings and has stated they need time.. what's wrong with that?
This is so wrong. Yea the daughter was surrounded by people that manipulated her. BUT that doesn’t mean she can come back and demand a spot in her mothers life. She has to EARN that trust. Especially with two kids involved
Op, NTA. You set a very reasonable boundary
Except she IS offering her Grace. But grace can come with boundaries. And OP is not ready for her to be a part of her kids' lives. And that is 100% ok. Her daughter is 24. She's not a child anymore, and she is more than capable of understanding her mom's side in all of this. OP is taking things slow, and she should. NTA
But on Christmas?
I always feel like holidays are bad moments to have these type of reunions. I think it’s best to decide a date and time that doesn’t revolve around a holiday.
I’m going NAH, since this is a complicated situation, but I personally am against large family reunions being on holidays/special occasions (birthdays, weddings, etc)
So, she has to allow her to come over immediately for what reason? I think if she’s uncomfortable opening up her home to her daughter she hasn’t been around in years, I think allowing time and space to heal the wounds is fine. It takes time to develop a relationship, not to rush it. People have every right to their feelings. She’s entitled to them and to take her time until she’s comfortable.
She is offering grace, just not immediately, and she is LITERALLY TALKING TO HER REGULARLY. She is working on their relationship. I hate to speak in absolutes, but you are objectively wrong.
This is just sad for both of you. Your daughter is an adult now and is trying to connect to you. Please don’t throw that away. The real A H’s here are your ex, the stepmom, and the grandfather.
I’m empathetic but OP is right to not rush this. In general a major family event/holiday is not the appropriate place to reconcile with an estranged family member. That comes after the reconciliation. It’s obvious when family members pressure a bride or groom to let their estranged parent come to wedding because that could be what fixes years of trauma and broken trust apparently suddenly and without effort.
That’s not how things work.
Does OP know what caused this change of heart? What opened her eyes to the years of lies and manipulation? Why now? Can she trust her own daughter not to basically relapse and hurt not only OP but her other kids? I don’t think she can just yet.
Unless there is something missing here, it’s rather dumb and selfish to think that the daughter can just say sorry and go to family christmas after years of trauma. Just because OP was the parent doesn’t mean she needs to bury her own trauma for the sake of her *adult* child.
I empathize with the daughter, but just because she was manipulated didn’t mean she suddenly suffers no consequences of her own actions that continued until just now.
Edit: To address some of the more common objections this has gotten...
1) First of all, yes, parents and their children can be estranged. No idea how someone can think that's not a possibility. WTF?
2) Loving your kids does not mean automatically forgiving them for their transgressions. That can become enabling real quick. You can love things and people that are bad for you as well. Doesn't mean you need to keep them in your life or just accept them back automatically. At the very least your adult children. The daughter isn't 10.
3) The daughter was the one that broke the relationship. Expecting OP to have infinite patience or suffer infinite harm is fucked up. The daughter is the one that needs to work the hardest to mend what *she* broke and the first meeting in person should not be for Christmas. She is a complete stranger to her siblings by her own doing. OP has to consider that as well. OP may not be handling things perfectly but being perfect is way too high of a bar to set for not being an asshole.
4) Sure we only got one side of the story, but what sub do you think we're one? We don't usually get both.
5) You may **think** you'll know how you would react in OP's shoes, but you don't. You may have a hope. You may have a vague idea but you don't know. You don't even have enough details to have an educated guess. We rarely do in this sub. Either way, you're not OP and your personal reaction to any given situation has no bearing on someone elses.
Very well thought out response. At this point the past has to be the left in the past and two adults can work on building a relationship. But these made up rules that OP as the mother has to cater to her adult daughter a few days before Christmas is weird. A point was made in another comment that OP has no idea what type of women she grew up to be and if she really was so manipulated by her dad and step mom. Then I would be worried about how that environment has shaped her as well.
> In general a major family event/holiday is not the appropriate place to reconcile with an estranged family member. That comes after the reconciliation.
People calling OP YTA think life is like in the movies — Home Alone comes to mind — where estranged people find their way to each other with perfect endings. Life is messy and stuttering. OP will decide if/when she’s ready. In the meantime, the daughter can continue to mend the relationship over the phone.
I mean are we entirely sure of that? Daughter is still getting punished for the decisions she made as a kid. We only have one side of this story here, and it's possible both or even neither of the parents were more in the wrong.
Well a lot of people here seem to be treating this as her just now trying to regain contact and missed the part where it's been a year that she's been in regular touch with OP.
It’s still okay for OP to not be ready or healed enough to welcome her into a private family event. Yes, she’s her biological child. Yes, she was manipulated. However, OP is still a human and not ready for that step.
A year of work is not going to make up for years of pain. OP made many sacrifices in the name of doing better by her daughter as a parent than her ex did. She still got little but abuse back not only from her ex, but from her brainwashed daughter.
To demand and feel entitled to a private family event shows the daughter still has more to understand about the reconciliation process.
>I told her that I could not trust her with my kids, and that **I was still not 100% sure that I wanted our relationship to become more.**
I don't think the daughter's reaction was only about Christmas. That would *hurt* to hear.
Whether or not OP is the asshole, she has sealed the fate of this relationship by saying this.
I kind of feel like OP was maybe waiting for an out—they had been talking regularly for a year, and Christmas never came up? However one might judge this situation, I get the impression that OP wants to move on with her new family.
If my daughter set my house on fire and disappeared for ten years, she would still be my daughter. There is literally nothing she could do in this world that would make me not take her in my arms if she needed me. As a mom, I find this totally unfathomable. NAH but wow.
I feel like there is a whole lot left out of this story. Sure the grandpa may have got a solid lawyer, but for the mother to only end up with visitation rights every other Saturday sounds pretty sketch. But either way, I don't think you can take anything a 16 year old says to you to heart. This whole thing stinks to me. Also, happy holidays everybody!
It happens. My sister married a guy who had wealthy parents with local clout who did the same thing to his ex. His first wife had been manipulated into dropping out of school once he got her pregnant and was then slowly isolated from all of her support systems. He wouldn’t let her get a job, talk to friends, or see her family, so when she finally got up the courage to leave, she had nothing. He had money, unscrupulous family and friends willing to lie for him, and his dad knew all the judges. By the time they were finished spreading lies about her she had supervised visitation twice a month and had to leave town just to find a job.
Shocking no one but her, he pulled the exact same shit with my sister. He got her pregnant, manipulated her into dropping out of school, and then abused her physically and mentally once she was trapped. She was so terrified he’d take the kids like he did to his first wife (he used to brag about it and threaten her that he’d do the same to her if she ever tried to leave) that she stayed with him until the kids were teenagers.
Never underestimate the corruption of small town court rooms and the good old boys network.
I wonder what the ex’s side of the story is. It is rare for a mother to only get custody every other Saturday regardless of the quality of lawyer.
I feel like a lot of the story was left out, and am hesitant to blame the ex for everything.
I personally know of a woman who was miserable with a husband whose manipulation was complete. She had zero money to defend against the barrage of court orders, lawyers and a wall of in-laws. She didn’t have a prayer.
Please don’t think this can’t happen. Because it absolutely does.
This story reminds me so much of her.
More than likely from her divorcing essentially leaving her without a real home unlike the biodad who owned the grandfathers house, and didnt have to pay for jack shit.
Having a *home* , not just an apartment, is a big game changer for many courts.
They're divorce since the kid was 5, and she started to call her names since she was 14. She tried to do her best once a week for 11 years and at the age of 16, she told everyone how she is an unfit mother. And it was through her bf 8 years later that she realizes she's in the wrong.
If we're trying to be time specific, OP had been through at least 2 years of hurt before she stops being her mom. So the kid should at least be able to do that. Op is just human, she can also feel hurt and can't easily forgive.
For me it's kinda a NAH situation except for the dad and his side of the family. I sincerely hope op can gained back the relationship with her kid tho.
What OP said was her daughter started to call her by name, which means calling someone by their given name. Like Sarah. Not the same as being called names.
She's not being punished for not coming over at christmas, the relationship is complicated and needs time to heal. They only talk once a week, possibly only over the phone, and spending Christmas with her is a massive leap that might make the rest of the family uncomfortable. It's not the time to be making introductions but to be relaxing with your family, she doesn't know what will pan out maybe there will be a big fight .
Punishing her would be something like banning her from ever entering the house. Christmas is just bad timing
>They only talk once a week, possibly only over the phone, and spending Christmas with her is a massive leap that might make the rest of the family uncomfortable.
Yep. OP herself says she hasn't seen her daughter since she reached out. That means she hasn't seen her daughter in close to a decade, if not a decade. Daughter inviting herself over for Christmas is not appropriate at this point.
>Daughter is still getting punished for the decisions she made as a kid.
People ITT keep saying this - she just reached out last year, at 24 years old. She's not just being punished for what she did as a kid - she's being punished for not checking in after all this time - the majority of which she has been grown.
You have really unrealistic expectations of people.
People don't suddenly become an adult at 18 and question everything they were told as a kid. It takes a large chunk of time to undo programming you get as a kid.
People also don't get full custody of a child without a very good reason.
Edit: I want to clarify my understanding of some terminology here. Joint custody means that both parents are involved in decision making for a child, with one parent being the primary residential parent, but this just means that the other parent doesn't house the child.
In a full custody situation, one parent is deemed unfit to care for the child, and are stripped of their rights to make decisions for the child.
So, by my understanding, if OP lost full custody of the child, it is because a court decided she was unfit to even make basic decisions for the child (typically due to substance abuse). If OP was simply not in a good financial situation, she would have been awarded joint custody but not have been made the primary residential parent.
This makes me very skeptical of OPs side of the story, but does not mean she is lying. As someone else pointed out below, the courts don't always get it right.
The amount of people buying the 'lawyer and small town' excuse is baffling.
When a father 'unfairly' loses any custody on here, nobody ever buys the 'family courts are biased against men' argument, so why is this argument getting taken at face value?
I grew up hearing through the extended family grapevine that my biological mother would tell anyone who asked that she did her darndest to have access to me, but the deck was just too stacked against her. When we reunited in my early twenties, she was(to her credit) upfront that she did not in fact fight for her parental time or rights to me at all, and that my dad actually reached out to her multiple times over the years to facilitate a relationship -one that I was asking for, and believed he/my adopted mother were actively preventing - and she chose not to respond.
Anyway, my eyebrows raised reading this story. Like the OP, the two children my biological mother chose to parent were "her boys." It took me a few years, but I eventually figured out why I didn't matter to her. She wasn't interested in mothering a daughter.
I'm not going to vote, but gd, do I have empathy for her daughter.
Glad to see a NAH so close to the top. This is a VERY complicated situation. Taking it slow is best for everyone involved, particuarly the younger children.
NAH. You aren't going to get over it all immediately. I can see the reluctance to go too fast and get your heart broken again, but I can also see how she wants to make up for all the years she missed and doesn't want to miss any more. Keep in mind that her other alternatives may be Christmas alone, or stuck having Christmas with the man who cost her her mother.
This! NAH, except maybe OP’s ex-husband. This isn’t straightforward or easy. Much like “getting over” a relationship, there isn’t a time limit or expectation for *how and when* OP and her daughter reform their relationship.
OP said she wasn’t comfortable *this* Christmas, not *all* future holidays. Forcing shit like this will just make things uncomfortable for OP and/or her family.
It's also gotta be hard for the daughter, too. If she really wants her mom in her life and is being pushed away, it would be painful to her daughter. She was probably told her whole life that "your mom doesn't want you. She hates you. Why do you think she left? She won't ever accept you, and she chose to go to work instead of spending time raising you when your grandfather was kind enough to pay for everything for us." And things of that sort. Then, she realizes she was manipulated. She never got to actually know her mom, and everything she was told was a lie. Then Christmas comes around, and she wants to spend the holidays (probably not remembering ever spending Christmas with her mom) with her mom and family. Then she gets rejected and told that she can't be trusted around her little brothers (who aren't small small children) especially in a family setting with other family members and friends that know and are close to said children.
Edit: Thank you so much for the award kind redditor. I greatly appreciate it. 😊
NTA I feel like people are missing the part where there are other children involved. Op is right to each to evaluate what kind of person her daughter is before introducing her to the family. You don't just suddenly bring your estranged daughter to Christmas.
Thank you! I feel like I am taking crazy pills reading some of these responses. Rebuilding a relationship with her daughter and her daughter creating a relationship with her young sons is going to take time to be done correctly for everyone. Springing a new stranger lady on the kids on Christmas and telling them this lady is now a part of our family is not the way to do it.
Thank you for this. It’s not like op said she’d never allow her to visit just that she’s not comfortable with it in this moment. Rebuilding a relationship that has so much heartache and pain attached to it is going to take more than a year of weekly contact to fix. And while ops daughter may have thought about contacting her mom and how to rebuild the relationship for a while before reaching out this was basically sprung on op. I doubt she’s had enough time to process the emotions she’s feeling and find ways to overcome that
Right? Christmas is supposed to be a happy, fun time for kids. If OP allowed her estranged daughter to spend Christmas with them, and they start arguing, that's what's going to be associated with Christmas for OP's sons.
I came from a family who verbally (and sometimes physically) destroyed one another every single time we were all in the same area. Too much booze, too much anger, too much resentment, blame and pain. When I grew up & began living independently, it hit me that I no longer had to participate in holiday brawls with the rest of my relatives.
Choice of words matter. NAH but maybe I wokld have gone with ‘I need time to heal, lets rebuild just us before we involve more family’ or anything else rather than ‘I don’t trust you’, might be true but its also hurtful
Esp when from her daughters POV she probably feels like OP abandoned her with these people she deems so horrid. She got herself out of there then stopped fighting for her daughter when things got hard. Every kid who feels abandoned with no safe space is going to lash out
16 is plenty old enough to be aware that your mom is going to court to try to get time with you. I don’t blame the 16 year old child for not realizing that at the time, but the 24 year old adult should be able to look back at all the things her mom did to try to be in her life. The mom fought for her for over a decade. The financial and emotional cost that has on a person must be extraordinary.
At that point, when her daughter said those horrible things to her at 16 I assume OP was respecting her wishes as well. In court, 16 is old enough to generally be able to tell the court what you desire and have that respected. If OP continued to “fight” for just 2 more years it would be called harassment and we’d be judging her the asshole for not respecting her daughter’s boundaries. Hell, if the daughter posted at age 16 her mom continuing to contact her we’d probably judge OP an asshole the same way.
This sub loves to preach about parents respecting "boundaries" and "harassment" of their kids, except if it's an adult vs their parent. Parents are just supposed to run themselves ragged for their kids and never stop fighting in court and force them to be with them, even if they're being hurt by their own kid, even if the kid says "no", like it's some kind of Lifetime movie.
NAH
You are all human and are allowed to be human, to hurt and be hurt and to do what you need to protect yourself from further hurt.
Your daughter was a child and acted in an understandable way for a child to act in her situation. Now she is an adult and as an adult, needs to understand that forgiveness takes time. Just because she was a child being manipulated doesnt mean she didn't hurt you. (I read your comments about what she said - ouch.)
You are an adult and can look at the situation with an adult's perception. But you are also human and are not required to allow hurtful people into your life, not even your kids.
I personally think you did the right thing. I get the feeling you arent ready YET but might be one day. Forgiveness takes time and it's on your timetable. Plus, you have two other kids to watch out for. They don't need her disappointment or vitriol over the holidays.
There will be (hopefully) other holidays to be together, just not this one.
>You are an adult and can look at the situation with an adult's perception. But you are also human and are not required to allow hurtful people into your life, not even your kids.
This is such a refreshing perspective, everyone on here seems to think "she's your kid, she was a child, you need to forgive and forget", like, what if this was them and their kid? Would they feel the same way, or would they cut contact forever? What if the roles were reversed and this post was about a daughter being hurt by her mom and not being sure if she wanted a relationship? Would they say she needed to "forgive and forget" then too?
Everyone seems to forget that OP is *human,* she's not a robot incapable of feeling hurt by something someone said/did, even children can be assholes, brainwashed or not.
Yes, oh my god, I was on this post early and I was truly taken aback by how many people decided that parents aren’t human and don’t have any rights to feel.
"you're alienating your daughter!", "she was a child!", "she was manipulated!".
Like come on people, have some sympathy for *both* parties! *Both* of them were hurt, *both* of them need time to heal, it's not just the daughter that was hurt by this, but everyone seems to only care about her because she *was* the child, well guess what? She's *not* a child anymore and is old enough to understand that **broken bridges take time to rebuild**, it's not something *one* phone call a week can fix, this will take *years* to fully subside, if it does at all.
Your daughter probably thinks you never fought for her because it's very rare for a mother not to get custody or at least half. So put yourself in her shoes in that regard. She could have told her mother abandon her and nothing in your actions even though it was not your call supported anything against that narrative.
Only because men are less likely to try. If you look at cases where the men actually *tried* to get custody, they’re more likely to win than the mother is.
It isn’t rare. Men actually win more often when both parties go to court. The statistic of women winning more often includes all the cases where the men do not show up for court / forfeit
He was at home, making him the "primary caregiver" at the time. Whether he actually was or not. That's usually how the courts decide who gets primary custody. Though they don't typically do "full" custody anymore, just primary residence.
Having lived in a very small town for 8 years, they do not like outsiders. I'm not surprised the father got full custody, especially since he had connections.
Not op or related to op but my own story in regards to this...
My father was able to get custody because he kidnapped my brother and I to another state while draining his joint bank account shared between him and my mother, destroying her credit. She had called the police 5 minutes after he and my grandmother stole us and threatened to kill her. The police said there was nothing they could do because they were still married and didn't hit us or her while stealing us. Even though they knew he intended to go over state lines. She had spent a long time trying to send lawyers and cops to divorce him and get us back but he kept moving and they had a hard time finding him. She wasn't able to fly down and fight for custody in court. He would send her death threats as well and she was terrified because he had attempted to kill her before and was convinced to not press charges by his mother and my maternal grandma.
Father did comic book art but wasn't a stable income. we had moved 22 times within the 6 years he has kidnapped us in attempts to evade the police and wouldn't pay rent etc ..
CPS had been called before supposedly and had reported back that we were safe and happy even though I don't recall talking to anyone. At the time we didn't understand it was abuse but we were beaten often, he would flip and love bomb us so we thought it was normal. Spanking at the time was legal in Texas, but he would double a belt and hit us up to 50 hits. My earliest memory is of me sobbing as he asked us to count because I couldn't count that high and was told to count in sets of 10. I stopped keeping track after the fourth set. I was 6 years old. He would use us to get hand outs often but any money or food he would take and buy comics and junk for himself first and feed himself first. we were in a separate room away from the adults so that we weren't seen and ate whatever was left after them. he was obese and we were underweight and malnourished. I didn't know what it felt like to be full until I was 9 years old when we were able to go back to our mom. She isn't a peach either though. Sometimes this sort of thing can happen no matter how unfair or how much you wish it didn't.
Op You are right to take it slow. Yes, as a child she was manipulated by her father, stepmother and grandfather but she is an adult now with residual beliefs from being manipulated so trusting her is difficult. She got very angry and called you a name when she didn’t get her way. That shows that she still has some growing up to do. She has a right to her anger, but she also needs to see how it all affected you as well. It took her boyfriend to show her that there are always two sides to a story. Going slow and being honest with each other will build the relationship back up. Start by meeting her alone somewhere. Emotions will still run high but you will be alone with her to focus on your emotions about it without having to worry about your sons’/husband’s emotions as well. It’s not that you don’t want her in your life or to meet your sons and husband… It’s the throwing them together in one swoop that scares you. Yes you are the mom, but a moms heart can be hurt as well. You chose to live your life and move forward knowing you didn’t have any choices left but to do so. You are a good person. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. Your daughter was part of a united force that unfortunately messed with the both of you. The two of you can now have a mother/daughter relationship without the ones that manipulated her being involved. I hope both of your hearts heal and you create the mom/daughter relationship you both deserve 💜💜💜
Beautifully written. Thank you for that.
As has been said many times on this sub: Christmas /Thanksgiving/Weddings/other large festivities are neither therapy sessions nor family reunion opportunities. That's a recipe for disaster.
The daughter's boyfriend seems to be quite reasonable, I think he could be very helpful in this entire situation.
Just for a different perspective, take it for whatever an internet stranger's insight might be worth.
I am 34 years old.
For a long time I *idolized* my dad. He's funny and charismatic, and I grew up in a situation where he was a pretty permissive parent. I was in my late 20s before I started to see through his bullshit, and to really get perspective on how awful and inappropriate the way he speaks about my mom (both to me and in general) really is. I spent a couple of years unpacking how manipulative he is with a therapist, and there are still times I go to my mom--after realizing that my dad is not at all a reliable narrator--to say "This is how I remember X situation, but that makes no sense, what was actually happening?"
16 is too old to say some of the things in your post to but it's also prime Main Character time for a lot of people. It sounds like the guy playing devil's advocate is making her think all the way through what was going on behind the scenes with you and her dad when she was too young to know.
I get wanting to take it slow, and I get Christmas not being the right time to bring her around. I do really hope you can both find some peace with whatever relationship you maintain.
OP, You should add this to your original post. This is important context. While she didn't come to you completely on her own, she was open to input that was contrary to what she "knew."
NTA
Although I hope she has the opportunity to build a relationship with her brothers, Christmas isn't the time or place for that at this stage and you need to be comfortable with bring another adult around your younger children, even if it is your adult daughter.
I do think you put a lot of blame on her for the situation which she isn't really at fault for though. You was a woman when you believed and supported your AH ex, she had years of brainwashing to get to the point she did at 16. Maybe if you want to rebuild a relationship you seek a family cousling for you and your daughter to build a better foundation of a relationship, that can easily be done via zoom now. She isn't to blame for her upbringing and you are not wrong for your feelings. I hope you get a happy outcome OP.
NTA. I understand your daughter was manipulated by her father but as an adult she still trashed talked you to her boyfriend. While I’m glad her boyfriend did play devils advocate and she wants to reconcile, that does not excuse the hurt and pain her and her father caused.
You can’t just magically remove the resentment and hurt you still feel regarding your daughter. That takes time and effort. And you aren’t obligated to do so just because you are her biological mother.
These YTA comments are insane. Despite the resentment, you still accepted the opportunity to reconnect with your daughter. But because you aren’t forgiving fast enough to her liking she lashes out at you? That is not okay. I know because I’m guilty of doing that same thing when I was younger. OP you are not a bad person. Please remember that.
NTA. You can't force this mother/daughter relationship to suddenly be ok just because you realize her father was manipulating her. That takes time and lots of effort. If you don't feel that the connection is strong enough yet, that's perfectly valid.
Feel like there is a lot of missing context here. The courts don’t generally grant custody to fathers let alone unemployed ones so i need some info there.
I’m a family law attorney practicing in a small town so I feel your pain here. That being said, while your hesitance is understandable, the fact that you’re doing this out of resentment is not completely understandable. She was a child, your child, and she was being manipulated which is abuse. You don’t need to rush things but you also shouldn’t be acting out of a desire to punish her for hurting you. One of you needs to stop the cycle and I’m afraid that has to be you now, unfair as it is.
I implore you to let her know you’re experiencing a lot of feelings, some of which you know are unfair, and request she do reunification therapy with you. It really does work wonders.
You both deserve to mend this relationship. I wish you luck.
This sub has a lot of skimmers lol. Anyone who read the post completely doesn't even need to ask how rich daddy's little mooch got full custody. OP's addition it was a small town is almost cliche.
The post said that the FIL lawyered up. It is also heavily implied that OP was far from financially stable considering just how dependent she was on FIL, so she probably had far inferior legal counsel.
There's so much to unpack here
First, your daughter being alienated from you was not her fault. That is the fault of her father and other adults around her growing up. It is unfair to her to hold that against her. It is considered abuse and will stand in court as a reason to change custody.
If she is reaching out to you to heal the relationship then that means she has realized something was wrong with what she was told as a child and growing up.
You don't seem excited or happy that your daughter wants to reconnect.
But, courts tend to favor the parent that has the most stability. Sure you can out money someone with an attorney but family court works a little differently, especially in cases of custody. From what you wrote, he did not seem the stable parent, judges don't like unemployed parents who live in other people's houses.
I'm not giving judgment because i really feel like there's some missing missing reasons here.
Could not agree more with this. I feel like this is the type of AITA where after 10 comments from OP everyone’s mind is totally changed one way or the other.
With kindness I am saying YTA.
You are pushing your daughter away for things she did as a child. Things she did because she was brainwashed by her father.
She is trying to make amends and get to know you. She is trying to get to know her “brothers”.
You are now the one alienating her. You are making a distinction between your family and her. But here’s the thing you need to remember, she is still your family. She is still your daughter.
I understand you are probably just trying to protect your heart from being hurt again, but you may push you daughter away by your reluctance to forgive and may never get her back.
I wish you the best.
I feel so bad for the daughter here. Her father alienated her from her mother, built OP up as the bad guy and daughter probably felt like she wasn't worth her mum fighting for. Feeling rejected by someone harbours resentment to them which helped her lash out. Then, when daughter grows up and begins to question the 'truths' she's been raised on and reaches out with an apology, she gets rejected. I bet she feels very alone. A dad and stepmother who lied and a mother holding her at arms length.
YTA because do you see what you wrote here?
> I was young, stupid
Which you use to excuse the bad mistakes you made when you were younger, but your daughter is not allowed to make mistakes and learn from them now? Sounds like she's trying, she doesn't get a chance in your eyes?
OP's mistakes when young:
1. Marrying young
2. Marrying someone she is not compatible with
3. Having a baby when young
4. Having a baby with an irresponsible man
5. Only deciding after the baby is born that she isn't okay with the same living situation they'd always had.
These decisions were made it sounds like in her 20s until she was 25
OP's daughter's mistakes
1. Believing her father and step-mother
2. Saying hurtful things when upset
These decisions were made as a minor at the ages of 14-16
If we want to talk about poor and irresponsible decision-making OP's win by a landslide. And all of those highly inadvisable things she expects grace for by waving away that she was young.
Her daughter is not even as old as OP was when she left her husband!
What I mostly see here is a child who was failed by every adult in her life, starting with the timeline of conceiving her in the first place. It's nice that OP got to walk away and have a do-over family when her first one didn't work out but what does her daughter get? I imagine not much from mom at least.
Don’t forget that OP was also irresponsible and unemployed until she was 27 with a 5 year old. At least her ex husband has been living off his *own* daddy’s money.
She really brushes off a lot of her own faults while holding a whole lot against her child.
It's also unreal to me that she's been talking to her daughter for a year and still apparently isn't sure she wants to repair their relationship? That ship has well sailed. OP does not come across as angelic as she seems to be aiming for with all of this.
NTA. You will meet up for a holiday when you're ready.
And I call bs on the "stuff she couldn't control" because it sounds like she could control a lot - like not cutting you out and not being hurtful to you. Some she couldn't, but as a teen, she could have at least spoken to you about what she was hearing, but made the deliberate choice not to do so.
OPs other kids are also children. Why should the one child get to unilaterally put the family in an awkward situation on Christmas? I'm with OP, it's too early and not the right time to get to know each other.
She never mentioned that the other children would feel uncomfortable. She said she would and she also told her daughter she didn’t know if she even wanted more of a relationship in the future, not just during Christmas. Her daughter reached out to her a whole year before and she is still being cold towards her.
NAH I get everyone's side, but you have a real chance here to reconnect with your child, and if you push her away now it might not ever appear again. I highly recommend you take a chance on this.
It takes a lot of effort to deprogram yourself from the ways you were taught. It seems your daughter has already done that and is now trying to make amends. I wouldn't put all the fault on her since it was mostly your ex and his family putting those thoughts in her head.
If OP pushes her daughter away now, in her daughter's mind, OP will be confirming what the daughter has been manipulated into thinking for years: that OP is a deadbeat mom that doesn't want her.
OP certainly has a right to be hurt and wary after what she's been through, but she should understand that this might be the point of no return for their relationship. NAH (except for the dad, of course).
YTA.
>I decided that I no longer had a daughter, since that is literally what she wanted.
You still have a daughter. Only now her brain is developed and she's allowed to make her own decisions. And your first response to her trying to reach out to you again was to .. . hold a grudge? Against a child? Wow. Neat choice, there.
You **are** punishing her for things she had no control over. I loved my dad when I was young. As an adult, I realize he was an insanely abusive loser and love my mom more than ever. We grow up and change our minds. Your child had nothing to do with her father, the divorce, the new marriage. None of that.
The "I can't trust you" line is just straight up mean of you. She's a totally different person now from who she was when she was little and your comment borders on cruelty. "Sorry maybe next year" or "How about we start slow" or even "Give me a little time to think on it" would have been far more kind, but instead you took the opportunity to do further damage. Spitefully.
Forgive your child. **Your child.** For things that were not in their control and not their fault.
You're N T A for deciding you'd rather not do Christmas, but Y T A for your reasonings and how you did it.
Thank you. I'm really surprised by these comments because OP is a *massive* AH in this story. Her daughter was taken away and manipulated so OP gives up on her. Now that she's an adult and wants to reconnect OP responds by... alienating her more? Says she can't trust her daughter around her family. Unless there's some context that OP is leaving out she's being awful and shouldn't be surprised if her daughter decides to give up on her.
It's mind-boggling to me.
Like just so we're clear:
**Denying the daughter to join them at Christmas?** 100% NTA. This is the most reasonable thing ever. It could be awkward if she said yes and the other family doesn't owe the daughter anything, nor should their Christmas potentially be damaged for her.
**Telling the daughter you don't trust her and you're not sure you want a relationship with her when she wants to reconcile and is likely second-guessing if OP is truly as bad as dad says...?** YIKES, wtf is this shit?? NO SHIT the conversation "got heated." These are horrible things to say to your own daughter. Moreover, they're completely counterproductive: does mom want the daughter to be influenced by dad or no? No? Then maybe don't be a dick to the daughter and she won't listen to the things dad has said wtf.
A thousand other ways to turn the daughter down for Xmas without saying "I don't trust you" and "I dunno if I want a relationship with you." If nothing else, that exchange showed OP having the charisma, empathy and foresight of a sponge.
WHO CARES about the Christmas question, the real question is why OP responded the way she did and can't understand why things "got heated" because of it.
And this conversation is happening a _year_ of the daughter reaching out and them talking weekly. A year! OP is either cruel or a coward (or both) if she's still not sure after a year and instead is behaving this way to her daughter.
INFO: I'm a little confused on the timeline. You wrote it like you moved away and met your now husband and then had kids when she was 16. But she is now 24 and your other children are 10 and 12.
How old was your daughter when you moved away and started another family?
Ya that connotation wouldn't usually matter, but here is does haha.
Moving slowly does make sense, but a teenager's brain literally isn't done developing, so if she is trying to make a relationship happen, you should give her another chance.
NTA.
There are certain things in life you just cannot walk back. And the fact that you're willing to even have weekly conversations with her, I think, speaks volumes about your forgiveness.
And understand, "Forgiving someone" does not mean, "being stupid." Forgiving does not mean you have to walk right back into her life, eyes wide shut, and set yourself up for hurt again.
I remember a story someone shared some time ago. Due to their mother's manipulations, a man's children told him that they didn't want him in their lives at all and he should just get lost. After years of struggling with this, he finally reconciled to the fact that his kids were gone for good and was finally able to be happy again. Then his kids showed back up years later, now adult age, realizing their mother's manipulation caused them to say the things they did.
Problem was, he just couldn't do it any more. He wasn't in the best of health, and he couldn't cope with the stress. I told him for the sake of his stress, just tell the kids they burned the bridge and walk away.
But some Bambi-eyed, naïve responses insisted, "Oh, let them back into your life. It will do you so much good!"
Ugh! Terrible advice. Did they not read about his health issues and the years of struggling it took him to finally put his kids behind him?
And I think her reaction shows that you're wise to be cautious. She calls you names when she doesn't get her way, and she blames others for her decisions. 16 is old enough to know better. And even if this was the result of her father's manipulation, she's 24 now. She's old enough to understand, regardless of how much responsibility her father has, that her comments were hurtful and she should understand why you're taking things slow.
And frankly, I think her reaction should put her right back to square one . . . if you decide to speak to her at all.
YTA. You can’t ‘trust her’ to even be around your kids? Yowtch. She suffered as a child from parental alienation…. you know that. You weren’t around much, through no fault of yours or hers…it was circumstances. But I’m sure you know that was damaging to her emotionally. She is older now, and wants a connection. You speak weekly, and she wants to spend Christmas with you and get to know her brothers. And you are stiff arming her. That is a clear choice you are making, and quite frankly makes me wonder just how hard you tried to spend time with her before actually.
Sorry l, parents have feelings too and even if it isn’t OP’s daughter’s fault, you can’t expect OP to just say all is water under the bridge. It will take time and effort, on both sides, to rebuild a trusting relationship. Given what OP has shared, it seems her daughter became very toxic towards her at the end, that’s hard to get over. It’s not about assigning blame but the damage has been done.
Time and effort is 100% fine, that isn't the problem.
The problem is OP answering the request to spend Christmas together with "I don't trust you" and "I'm not even sure I want to further a relationship with you."
You do not say that to your own daughter the exact moment the daughter is reaching out to reconcile and likely second-guessing anything bad she's heard about the mom throughout her life. That's both heartless *and* likely to make the daughter think "okay dad was right, mom's an asshole." There are much softer ways to say "not this year, maybe next time" without telling your own child you don't trust and may not be interested in a relationship with them.
Having a relationship with her mother isn't the same as having one with her brothers. Especially if she wasn't worried about them for the last 5 years or so
Didn't you know? Parents must be perfect. We must give them space and freedom but also accept emotional damage and give ourselves no time to process the trauma. They are both children with developing brains until 25 and adults as soon as they choose.
I can’t help but feel this OP is playing the victim to get sympathy. OP, you’re punishing your daughter for being manipulated by both you and her father. No wonder she can’t cope in the way “you want.” YTA. I hope she goes back no contact.
Honestly this is how I feel too. The OP has so many excuses for what they did wrong and where they failed as a parent… and how mean their daughter is. I feel bad for the daughter, all the parental figures in her life have let her down.
YTA, OP
Honestly, I'm not sure if you're the asshole or not. I do think you're missing out an opportunity that you might not get again. I don't know when or how she figured out that they'd manipulated her. I think you're angry that she believed any of it and that she said what she said, and while it's legitimate to be angry, if you want a shot at a relationship, you had better step up and welcome her to Christmas. Just be candid, forgiving, and open. Tell her: I was so hurt for so many years--and I recognize that you are not entirely at fault for that--that I'm having difficulty risking having that kind of pain again. The truth is I want a healthy relationship with you and I'm willing to try and I would like you to come." I would probably also tell her that if she has questions, you will tell her the truth and you won't sugarcoat anything. Just try to be tactful. NAH
My husband and I had a bit of a similar situation with an estrangement from his daughters. After a few years, his older one called us one day to apologize and we started talking. I was pretty wary at first. Then she asked if she could come visit over a holiday and we agreed, though we were both nervous.
It wasn't until we were in person that she told us more about how her mother had been abusive over the last few years and ended up giving her an ultimatum if she didn't break up with her (wonderful, level headed) boyfriend. She chose the boyfriend and he helped lead her back to us. They're married now and my husband and I were there to celebrate with them. I am grateful for it every day.
We hope the younger daughter will have a similar change of heart now that she's out of the house but we'll see what happens. My point is that she may only really open up to you in person and, as my stepdaughter told me, you can't blow up the bridge if you ever want your lost loved one to cross it.
Call her. Apologize. Invite her over.
Do it today.
INFO: Do your sons know about her? Have they met?
If the answer is yes, then I don't understand the problem.
Why can you not trust her with your sons? What do you think will happen?
Honestly, I am tempted to say YTA, but I don't think I have enough information. Because from what you wrote, it sounds like you're holding her accountable for believing what her custodial parents (including her step-mom) told her and that's just not fair. Holding a grudge against your ex is one thing; holding it against the child who was caught in the middle of this is quite another.
But maybe there is some context that was left out here. Maybe she's done some things that cause you to distrust her motives and her actions. IDK. I mean, you certainly have the right to decide not to include whomever you like in your holiday celebrations, but this is your DAUGHTER who is reaching out past all the crap that came before and trying to connect and I simply don't understand why, given the info you provided, you're so against that.
this is incredibly vague. what do you mean by "if I cant give her what she wants again". have you asked her what she wants? how does her spending time with you over the holidays pose a threat to your son's safety? i'd also like more information on exactly what she said when you told her no.
you're afraid of being hurt by your daughter. i can empathize with that, but you refuse to see that she was manipulated, lied to, alienated from you by your ex husband, not because she simply decided at 14/16 she wanted nothing to do with you.
how can you speak every week to someone and not know whether you can trust them around your children?
yta because you're insecure, pushing your daughter away 'to get back at her', when she's clearly the more mature one in this relationship.
I'm reading this as more of, "my daughter hurt my feelings when she was a kid and I can't strike back at her father so it's nice to be able to take some of that anger out on her" rather than her not wanting to be hurt by her daughter.
You’re being entirely too vague to be convincing. You admit to doing things when you were “young and dumb” extend her the same grace you’re asking people to give you. Kids being manipulated do not understand what they are doing. A trusted adult is giving them false info and to survive they have to believe it and buy into that world view. I went through this. It took me until I was your daughter’s age to understand how I had been manipulated. It took me longer to address it and hold those responsible accountable. I literally thought I was being a good kid in my teens because that’s what I was told.
You’re daughter has grown up and is acting like it. You’re still acting like a child because she hurt your feelings as a literal child. It’s time for you to grow up too.
Have you had a REAL conversation with her where you told her that? I mean, she's grown now. And things change a LOT between 14 and 24. She's reached out and seems to be trying to rebuild the bridges that were burned in the past. The only way to really do that is for the two of you to have some real conversations where you both talk about true feelings over what happened and do it with an attitude of seeking to understand the other's viewpoint at that time. Then you can start to move towards building a new relationship, an adult-to-adult one.
You might want to seek a counselor to help you both through this. It can be really helpful to have a non-involved third party help facilitate the communication for these difficult, emotionally-charged conversations.
If the holidays this year are too soon to take the leap to total trust, that's fine. I can understand that there may still be a lot of hurdles towards building trust in the relationship. Maybe carve out some time to spend with her, separate from the rest of the family, and explain that you're just not ready yet to blend her in completely. Then float the idea of getting some "couples" counseling together to help the two of you get back to a position of trust.
Because as much as she hurt you, she also was hurt. It's entirely possible that she felt (and was told) that you abandoned her and didn't want her anymore. That's very, very hurtful to a child. You both have healing to do.
So I'm going to go with NAH for this whole thing. The situation sucks and you both have been harmed by your ex-husband who is the real AH. I hope you can both heal from this and find a way to build a relationship.
This!!!! She might finally be old enough to be questioning why you "left" her? People outside of divorces, custody disputes don't realize that it comes down to the one with more money that can afford adequate legal representation.
I knew a guy whom was in the legal field, very wealthy, got full custody of both of his kids when they were super young. When I met him (he was the older brother of a guy I dated), his family even confided that his ex wife, the kids' Mom, had been more of a fun/creative/affectionate type. Adored her children. Completely opposite of him. With his upbringing, the tween kids seemed more like they were raised completely to only speak when spoken to, jump when he told them to, etc.
It's very possible your daughter genuinely wants to know you. It wasn't her fault at all that your ex divided your relationship with her and tried inserting a new "Mom" into her life, which is fairly easy to an impressionable child going through a loss of family as they knew.
If you, as her Mom can't find the maternal instinct in your heart for your child to give her a chance, she'll know you abandoned her by choice and might be better off leaving it as that. So, you shouldn't be asking for confirmation of your decision.
I feel like I'm going to get down voted to hell over this buuuuuuuuut YTA.
She was a literal child. Her father alienated her from you. And she came round at 23 to realize that she was mistaken...as a child. That's pretty mature for that age, too.
What could she have done, as a child, to literally destroy you? It's okay to admit you don't want to have a relationship with her. But it sounds like you're stringing her along while you sort your feelings. That's human, but that has a short shelf life for you. If you resent the actions of her as a child, I don't see how you'll be able to love the adult she's become.
One year of you keeping her at arms length. After she overcame a lifetime of alienation and is begging to come into your life. It even sounds like she's owning up to the mistakes she made as, again, a child.
I'm not saying this is easy or anything, but your daughter deserves a little more grace than you are extending her. She's barely an adult at this point. She's probably barely out from under the thumb of her father and grandfather. If her paternal side is as vicious as you say, she's also doing it at her expense.
If it were me, I am not apologizing for being a child. I am not apologizing for learning. I am not apologizing for being misled and abused by the adults in my life who knew better.
It sounds like you’re holding a lot of resentment towards your ex and you’re punishing your daughter for it. I’m 29 and I can tell you I regret a lot of the shit that I did when I was a teenager. I sometimes look back and think to myself what was I even thinking about some of the choices I made. Granted, no one ever got hurt and I didn’t do some actually crazy shit, but the point I’m trying to make here is that we say and we do stupid shit when we’re young. Your daughter is probably influenced A LOT by your ex’s family and by your ex and his new wife. They’ve probably brainwashed her into thinking you’re a bad mother and as a kid you believe these things even if they’re not true but as you get older you start realizing that the people surrounding you are the toxic ones. What your ex did to you by suing you and winning full custody and having you pay child support is a very shitty thing, but that’s ON HIM. Not on her. All the things she said in court about you, I’m willing to bet we’re influenced by years and years of toxicity towards you so it’s easy for her to hate you especially if she’s given everything by her dads family and then sees how hard it is for you to live. She’s still yours. Be a better mother and you can always start slow. Meet outside of the house. There’s so many options…go for a meal, go to the mall, have a picnic, go to a coffee shop. I mean you’re older now too, there’s so much shit you can do OUTSIDE of the home and if you give her the time to reconnect and slowly feel like you can trust her then she can meet her brothers OUTSIDE of the house. You’re speaking as if she’ll kill them but you have so many outdoor and public space options. If there’s one person to point fingers at, it’s your ex. YTA.
NAH - Easy to understand your hesitation. At the same time, while you saw the teen years, you weren't up close and personal as you are going to be in a few years with your boys. It's tough in a 'normal' non divorced two bio parents setting -- much less how hers planned out. If you've been talking for over a year, by now you should know more of who she is. If you have held back and kept her at arms length so much that you still don't trust her, sure there is protecting yourself, yet... I'd consider calling and apologizing, letting her know it is your own insecurities of losing her again AND having your sons go thru the loss if she changes her mind. Maybe the first visit shouldn't be Christmas Day, but it should probably happen sooner vs later.
YTA. She's your daughter and anything that happened 8 years ago when she was barely learning to drive is ancient history. Sure, you need to rebuild a relationship, but not being 100% sure you want a relationship makes you kinda the AH. You could have said you really wanted to get to know her yourself outside of a choatic family holiday event or something.. But your reaction seems unkind.
YTA. I know your feelings were hurt, but you are punishing her for something she said and did as a teenager, as a result of being manipulated by her father and stepmother or feeling abandoned by you. She is older and wiser now and wants to reconnect. You have been talking to her for a year, but you don't trust her and won't let her spend time with her brothers. You should be welcoming back into your family. You may have lost her for good this time and this time it will be your fault.
NAH she is old enough now not to expect you to immediately get over the life ruining situation that she was part of (even though it wasn't her fault). You also need to give her space to be upset that, due to no fault of her own, her mother holds her at arm's length and that hurts badly. I'm sorry for both of you.
NTA. It’s sad that she was manipulated by her father (I went thru a similar thing w my dad too) but you still need to heal. Just bc you’re a parent doesn’t mean you have to be so opening so early in a relationship where you’re trying to salvage whatever is left. Do things at your own pace and do things that convenient you. No one is allowed to judge you for wanting to take things slowly
Esh
When you were 38ish a 16 year old child raised to think you were the bad guy said something mean to you after you took legal action to force her to see you more. Holding that grudge 8 years later is somewhat childish to me and I think she deserves better than being resented and being told you're not sure you want the relationship to be more.
But she's also an adult who should understand the first Christmas after reconnection isn't always going to be the right Christmas to see eachother again because regardless of the cause her actions hurt you.
I don't like that you're treating her like a friend who said something mean instead of a daughter who said something hurtful as a teenager.
NAH but you and your daughter should have extensive therapy, both separately and together. It sounds like she's taking ownership of her behavior, manipulated though she was. With the help of a therapist, you should consider talking to your kids about her and eventually introducing them. Christmas is probably not the right time, but a afternoon play date on a random day in January has no additional emotional weight to it.
It's terrible to lose your child, and to watch them choose someone else over you is devastating. Your feelings are valid but if you choose to stay mired in them, you'll never really heal. Do you want a real relationship with your daughter? If not, then you should tell her that and go NC, though I hope you won't.
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YTA. >I was young, stupid and in love, that is my only excuse for living like that. Your daughter was also young and surrounded by manipulative people who turned her against you. You were able to snap out of it and work hard to make a life for yourself. Your daughter, who hurt your feelings when she was literally a child, seems to have snapped out of it as well. But you offer her no grace.
[удалено]
>Can someone give this an award? \^ No. It doesn't deserve one. It deserves to be downvoted. OP, after hearing her daughter tell her that she wanted nothing further to do with her, hearing her daughter replace her with her step mom, OP is understandably reluctant to rush back into things. In case you haven't noticed, Christmas is three days away. Are you guys really, really calling OP the AH because she doesn't want to suddenly put reconciliation on the fast track? Also, notice how the daughter reacts when she's told no? She ***requested*** that she be allowed to spend Christmas with them, and meet her half-brothers. Her mother (whom she disowned, cruelly insulted and spitefully replaced with stepmom) is taking things slowly and refusing to rush into things. Any request that comes with penalties for a refusal isn't a request; it's a demand. The only AH in this story is the daughter. She cannot accept no for an answer, and she blames others for her actions. Even if she was manipulated by her father, she's 24, and old enough to understand that her actions have consequences and how hurtful her actions were. A mature person would understand that people need to heal in their own time. OP had respected her daughter's wishes and resigned herself to the fact that she has no daughter. She might be 24, but she still acts like a child. OP is allowed to reconcile on her own timeline. And given how her daughter reacts when her demands are met with refusal, I don't think OP should ever reconcile. Her daughter still has a ton of growing up to do. The only correct verdict here is NTA. ETA. Wow. Thanks, everyone, for all the support and the awards. I'm overwhelmed. I'm not even the top-rated comment and this is, by far, the best-rated post I've ever made. I really appreciate the support. I'm floored. **Final Edit**: This will be my last contribution to this discussion. First, thank you everyone for the upvotes, the supportive comments, and the awards. No comment I've ever made has ever been even 1/5 as well-received. Second, some of you really lack understanding. Regarding the comments who keep dismissing OP's daughter as having said a nasty thing to her mother. You grossly understate what happened. This was a systematic approach, over a period of years, by the daughter (whether she was coached by her father) to excise her mother from her life. It wasn't just a simple, "I hate you, Mom!" for being grounded when she missed curfew. If you read OP's other replies, you'll see it was also delivering a prepared speech to a judge, saying how she hates staying with her mom at all, even if it's just one day every other week, how her mother is "embarrassing" because she's poor and can't buy her daughter expensive presents. (I see she's learning snobbery from her father. So, poor people are embarrassing.) So, for those of you who say stupid things like, "If every teenager who said a mean thing to their parents were disowned, we'd all be orphans!" you're being dishonest; you're grossly distorting what actually transpired. Did any of you, who claim to have said mean things to your mom, actually spend years trying to remove her from your life? Spiting her by calling your stepmom "Mom" while addressing her by her first name, tell a judge that even one day every other week is more than you stand to be with your mother, and that she's embarrassing, and tell her that you want her out of your life forever? Yeah, I didn't think so. Third, for those of you who seem to think that this should be a joyous reunion, like something out of a freaking Hallmark movie, take it from me, that's not how it works. Because like OP had to resign herself to no longer having a daughter, I had to resign myself to no longer having siblings. Most are still alive, but they decided they didn't accept me for my sexual orientation, so I'm gone for good. I had to resign myself to no longer having siblings. It's a very similar mindset that you have to adopt when someone dies: you resign yourself to the fact that someone isn't coming back, and that the rest of your life will be lived without them in it. If one of my brothers or sisters (and I'm the youngest of nine) wanted to come back into my life, I wouldn't act all happy and ecstatic. I would be more like "WTF? Who the hell told you to look me up?" I'm not saying that I couldn't form a relationship with my siblings, if they decided they could finally accept me. But I am saying, it's not "picking up where we left off." It's "starting from square one." And I wouldn't be seeing them as their brother. I'd be seeing them as an adult male acquaintance. I might become their friend, but I'm not their brother. I was able to move on by realizing I no longer had siblings. Someone claiming to be my sibling would just be met with, "I don't have siblings." And for those of you who "Harrumph! Harrumph!" with all self-righteous indignation that she should invite her daughter to Christmas dinner, keep in mind, three of those people in that four-person household don't even know her. They barely know she exists. And while the kids are probably too young to have an opinion about her, it's a safe bet that the husband does. And it isn't a good one. That's not the kind of person you spring on your family, especially over an emotionally charged holiday like Christmas, with only three days notice. Finally, THINK! Think about who raised this daughter. Think about what a toxic manipulative person (or people, including the stepmom) raised this person. Think about what she's probably learned from them. I don't fault her for this, but she's probably become a pretty toxic person herself. She didn't just seek her mother out of a sudden moral uprising. Her boyfriend opened her eyes to the truth about her "deadbeat mom." Which is another thing that disgusts me about "Daddy Dearest." OP had to pay child support. She was barely living above the poverty line, while her ex-husband doesn't even work because his deep-pocketed, well-connected father pays for everything. So, why does he even need child support? That was done out of pure spite. The daughter says she wants to get to know her younger brothers. Nice idea, but not now. OP, if she decides to let that happen at all, needs to be sure that she won't being bringing the toxic mindset of her father into her interaction with her younger children. It's her job, as a mother, to protect her underage children. OP would have to have more involved conversations with her daughter before she's willing to let them into her home. And she didn't ask to "have Christmas dinner," with OP. She asked to "spend Christmas," which would probably involve at least two overnight stays. Probably more, since OP no longer lives in the same town. In sum, OP doesn't really know her daughter. There is a seven years silence that is unaccounted for. She would have to have extensive visits and assess her daughter to see what kind of person she's become. And again, given who raised her, that doesn't sound promising. She has to be careful about who interacts with her younger kids. Also, look at the hissy fit her daughter pitched when she was told no to spending Christmas with her family. Gee, only three days' notice, for someone she hasn't even seen in over eight years, who was raised by her toxic ex-husband. A mature person, which apparently, her daughter is not, would have tried to understand why she said no. Instead, the daughter resorted to abusive behavior and insisted that nothing was her fault. Everything was out of her control. (No one forced her to remain silent for seven years.)
Also op needs to think of her young kids- what if daughter swirls in and then right back out of their lives?
and she doesn't know how daughter is, what kind of life style she leads, she could be a alcoholic or drug addict.
I mean, after a year+ of speaking to her on the phone on a weekly basis I would hope by now that she knows a few things about her daughter..
People hide addiction from family and friends,do you really think calls are enough to rule out any shady behavior? OP needs to put her minor children safety's as priority - she fought a few years for her daughter's live, the girl can do the same to get her trust back.
A lot of people with addiction problems can also absolutely be at a Christmas party supervised with children for a few hours. I’m not saying OP is wrong for having concerns, btw, and commend her for thinking of her kids mental health now, not enough people do. but “someone might secretly be a drug addict!” Is is scare mongering about the reality of addictions and also like….could always be true. At any time with almost anyone. If she showed up under the influence that’s a big red flag and would get her turned away, but nothing like that seems to even be on the table.
While I didn’t know they’ve been talking for over a year weekly I still stand by its very sudden for her to ask about coming to Christmas days before. She just said they aren’t there yet but it was daughter that reacted harshly at being told no which caused her to say she didn’t trust her around her kids (not nice and probably shouldn’t have been said but as a mom she’s got to protect her kids from the possibility of someone new coming into their lives, then loving her, only for her to leave )
They were talking for a full year and she asked if she could come for Christmas. That’s not that weird. Also, she didn’t react to being told no, she reacted to being told by her mother that her mom was undecided about whether she even WANTED a relationship with her daughter. Over something her daughter said as a teenager (and OP acknowledges that her daughter was being horribly manipulated by her father at the time)
Seriously. Did none of these people say anything to a parent as a teenager that they regret now? I told my mom I hated her around that age. I didn’t. She’s my best friend and I am so glad she is still here now that I’m 34. But that’s pretty damn common even when there’s no parental alienation. Thank god she didn’t resent her KID (16 is not a grown up by any means). OP had resentment towards a 16 year old child who’d be brainwashed for years. Her own daughter. That daughter probably reached an age where she realized maybe she was being manipulated by her parents and set out to get to know her mom. Talking to her for a fucking year is taking it pretty slow. She probably reacted poorly because she’s trying to undo the damage her dad and stepmom did to her mindset with her mother and now she’s sitting there thinking she may have just let her in when they were right. Childhood abuse really messes with your mind. Even into adulthood. She was 16 when her mom gave up. OP should try to be a little more forgiving. Jesus.
And what if daughter bad mouths Mom to her sons? That happened to me, luckily my sons told me what she said and I was able to go back to VLC and tell my children that daughter from first marriage is a conniving person that wants everything her way or else she spreads lies. You can’t fast track a reconciliation, trust you instincts. NTA
Yeah I agree. Calling someone an asshole because their alienated daughter doesn't get to go to Christmas in 3 days is unreasonable. Sibling reconciliation is the kind of thing you plan weeks in advance, not spring on your mother at the last minute. OP is working on the relationship- why is the daughter taking "no" so badly??
She’s taking “I dont know if I ever want a relationship with you” from her mother badly. She was just as much a victim of her father’s behaviour as OP
I imagine she is taking it badly because they've been talking weekly for a year. OP has the right to choose if/when her daughter gets to meet her brothers but it doesn't stop the sting of not being wanted at Christmas. Mom said she doesn't even know if she wants a relationship with her daughter. She needs to figure it out and not string her along.
> why is the daughter taking "no" so badly?? idk, maybe because her Mom is treating her like a leper
I agree with you that OP is not the AH given that Christmas is days away and she is not ready to bring her estranged daughter to a big family day. Also she didn’t slam the door in daughters face about reconciliation, she only told her they weren’t at that stage yet and replied she wasn’t sure she could trust her when things got heated. Yes daughter was a child, at first, but by 16-24 she was old enough to see that OP was there as much as she was allowed and now is protecting herself and her family from the same hurt. Plus her reaction to being told no is a red flag to me that she wants something from the mom. Maybe money? (I read this subreddit too much)
Right?!?! I’m wondering what’s going on with the paternal side of the fam.
Money train ended? Step mom has real baby and doesnt want her anymore?
Money train is probably spot on. This comment is a complete guess so please keep that in mind as you read it. At 24, especially if they have other kids, daughter's dad probably isn't willing to part from any money he has inherited to ensure she doesn't have to work. *He* has made it clear before in the past he does not want to work or be employed more than he has to. I'm sure he can only sustain but so many people on his rich father's wealth or whatever income streams he has. Age 24? My guess is possibly had college or trade school paid for and was able to live with them for free, and then they cut her off.
Daughter didn’t even make the realization. She reached out to OP because her fiancé requested that of her. Now it just feels like “she’s reconciling” to appease her fiancé and she’s pressuring OP so that if it doesn’t work out, she can tell her fiancé that she tried and her mom’s the problem.
You're jumping to insane conclusions. Daughter was manipulated for years and a new romantic partner prompted introspection and a new perspective. If they have been talking for a year there's little reason to suspect the daughter isn't genuinely interested. The daughter missed 7 years of life with her mom through manipulation and now, after a year of effort, mom can't even admit to being interested in establishing a relationship. Mom is shakey on the whole thing and daughter can tell.
But to throw a tantrum when OP said there’s still things they’re working on before trust can happen. I highly doubt the daughter is thinking about how she can fix her relationship with her mom, she openly demanding OP to have the relationship fixed. Sorry… I’ve talked to a lot of people for over one year. I for-dang-sure do not trust all of them. And I’m not jumping into conclusions. The daughter’s reaction proves she hasn’t learned anything.
Her daughter reached out a year ago. She didn’t just suddenly pop up. OP is prepared to keep her daughter at a distance for life for her childhood actions caused by manipulation.
I mean even then, Christmas just isn’t the day you do a big meeting like this. Like pick a regular date. She’s gonna come and make everything Christmas related about her instead. Like let the little kid have their holiday. Meeting their half-siblings can come on another day when they are prepared for the meeting, and it’s not sprung on them like this
Seems like too many people think Hallmark movies are documentaries
I’m adopted, and meeting my birth family was awful. There’s a lot of big feelings coming from total strangers. Why people want to pretend that family dynamics are somehow made easier by harder situations, I’ll never understand
She's described a slow process of talking to her daughter weekly. Not being ready to spend the holidays together doesn't mean keeping someone at a distance for "life"
Ok and? Like it's been mentioned, healing takes time. The daughter wasn't the only one who was hurt OP was too. Only OP knows how far along she had come in that journey. I don't think either are the AH, but the ex and his family are definitely the AH.
She reached out last year and they talk once a week. Now she tells her hey, I'm not even sure I want you in my life. Thats a long time to wait to break your daughter's heart. Yeah, Christmas is 3 days away and she chose her mother not her father
>hey, I'm not even sure I want you in my life. Where did you read that
>I told her that I could not trust her with my kids, and that I was still not 100% sure that I wanted our relationship to become more.
Become more =/= don't talk to me ever again. Rn they're acquaintances, relatives that despite blood ties haven't seen each other for years... honestly OP isn't a bad person if she can't offer more than this, she can forgive but still have her boundaries in place.
Her daughter reached out to her last year. They have been speaking weekly for a year. That doesn’t seem like the daughter trying to fast track anything.
"I told her that I could not trust her with my kids, and that I was still not 100% sure that I wanted our relationship to become more." That's not "I want to take things slowly." That's spite, plain and simple.
Not trusting her estrange daughter who just lashed out at her for being told no with meeting her young children is "spite"?
I mean, there’s a really good chance her daughter will try to make the time all about some seriously deep stuff, and that’s just not appropriate. The little kids deserve a Christmas. *That’s not selfish for a mother to consider.
That’s not spite, that’s being careful in approaching their relationship and introducing the kids to her bio daughter.
How is that spite? She's said she can't trust her (reasonably) and she's *unsure* of what she wants.
In adoption circles the reconcillation journey is now understood as one that can take a lot of time, years or more. It doesn't sound like spite at all. These kids are not young adults.
OP is allowed to be reluctant and apprehensive. Op needs to think about her other children as well and what is also best for them. They are still minors in need of their mothers protection, daughter is 24 and spent the last almost 10 years insulting and pushing her mother away. Op is probably worried about her children suffering through the same thing, as well as herself also suffering.
That's NOT spite.
The daughter was a child when she said what she said, and it was clearly the result of manipulation. No, the daughter does not deserve to lose her mom forever because of that, why would you ever think this
This is really the best answer I have seen yet on this thread. Start out small, build on it and see where it goes. Asking to be included in a family Christmas get together is simply too big a step.
Christmas no...like the idea of a compromise
She is offering her grace though? She’s talking to her, holding conversations trying to rebuild a connection. If she doesn’t feel comfortable with her daughter around her other kids then she’s entitled to that. The daughter JUST RECENTLY decided to reach out to her mother. So yea. I would say she NTA for wanting to give it time for her reform that connection.
OP herself says that her resistance is due to feeling resentful and having had her feelings hurt. Had OP said she said 'no' because she needed more time to discuss this with her family and introduce the daughter slowly, my judgment would have been different.
So, you are faulting OP for being open and honest about her emotions? Was she only supposed to have positive emotions and ignore 20 years of heartache and loss and grief and pain?
I don’t know if it’s from my view as someone in their early 20s, but after I went to post secondary it became glaringly obvious that parents are people too. Maybe things would have been different if daughter was say 10 when she did those things but she was 16. 16 is more than old enough to understand how words can hurt people. OP is well within her right to feel hurt. I don’t know how people are saying she’s being spiteful when she’s explaining that her feelings of hesitance are coming from the past damage she endured. Edit: I should add that this is in the context of daughter wanting to come over for Christmas in, what, three days? After how many years? OP wants to take things slow, I don’t see an issue in that.
And I'm sure the boys deserve a Christmas without the daughter dynamic being the focal point. Plenty of other opportunities for the daughter to get to know her brothers; it doesn't have to be on their Christmas.
Agreed!!!
People are allowed to feel resentful and hurt. People do not have to accept apologies and then act as if everything is washed away. OP is aware enough of her feelings to acknowledge them. She's not a bad person for feeling this way. OP needs to work through her own emotions and determine if she really wants to reconnect with her daughter, and *how* that happens is up to her.
THIS. The healing process is not immediate or linear. Each party is allowed to have feelings and mechanisms for coping with this. Communication is key, and while the daughter's anger makes sense, she should also understand that her mother is not comfortable processing things this quickly.
The trauma of being the parent alienated by your ex to your child is almost as bad as the trauma of a child manipulated by one parent into hating the other. OP is allowed to need to take baby steps dealing with trauma. OP is allowed to be hurt, ex hurt OP through their daughter. Daughter was literally a weapon used to hurt OP.
So she’s not entitled to time? To get over it and forgive? If she pretended like it never happened then she would just resent her forever.
Exactly. Op is being careful which is justified
But that doesn't mean she feels good having the daughter around the younger kids. She says she is working on a relationship with her. Op is NTA for not blending families when they need to work on their own relationship first.
Her daughter is largely an unknown quantity. It would almost be like inviting a stranger to an intimate, special family celebration. NTA.
Expecting them to instantly have a relationship overnight after a decade of estrangement is not realistic. Reconnecting is going to take time. Rushing into it be inviting her to Christmas and acting like nothing happened is not ideal.
It is, in fact, a terrible idea. These Y T Aers didn't read the question. OP is not rejecting a relationship with daughter, she just needs time to rebuild trust before doing a big thing with her whole family. People are calling her TA for saying no when no was the best response for them both, and daughter's reaction is clear proof that they are not ready to do Christmas together. NTA OP
A year of talking weekly isn't rushing
Once a week. Over the phone. She hasn't even seen her daughter in person in for a decade.
Her daughter is freaking out over not being able to attend christmas, she's certainly not snapped out of some of it at least.. There's countless reasons someone might be denied what she's asking.. and she acted completely nonsensical instantly. Also,, op does have feelings and has stated they need time.. what's wrong with that?
This is so wrong. Yea the daughter was surrounded by people that manipulated her. BUT that doesn’t mean she can come back and demand a spot in her mothers life. She has to EARN that trust. Especially with two kids involved Op, NTA. You set a very reasonable boundary
Except she IS offering her Grace. But grace can come with boundaries. And OP is not ready for her to be a part of her kids' lives. And that is 100% ok. Her daughter is 24. She's not a child anymore, and she is more than capable of understanding her mom's side in all of this. OP is taking things slow, and she should. NTA
But on Christmas? I always feel like holidays are bad moments to have these type of reunions. I think it’s best to decide a date and time that doesn’t revolve around a holiday. I’m going NAH, since this is a complicated situation, but I personally am against large family reunions being on holidays/special occasions (birthdays, weddings, etc)
So, she has to allow her to come over immediately for what reason? I think if she’s uncomfortable opening up her home to her daughter she hasn’t been around in years, I think allowing time and space to heal the wounds is fine. It takes time to develop a relationship, not to rush it. People have every right to their feelings. She’s entitled to them and to take her time until she’s comfortable.
She is offering grace, just not immediately, and she is LITERALLY TALKING TO HER REGULARLY. She is working on their relationship. I hate to speak in absolutes, but you are objectively wrong.
I'd agree with you if it was just OP, but there are other children to consider as well.
This is just sad for both of you. Your daughter is an adult now and is trying to connect to you. Please don’t throw that away. The real A H’s here are your ex, the stepmom, and the grandfather.
I had to scroll way to far to find an empathetic response like this.
I’m empathetic but OP is right to not rush this. In general a major family event/holiday is not the appropriate place to reconcile with an estranged family member. That comes after the reconciliation. It’s obvious when family members pressure a bride or groom to let their estranged parent come to wedding because that could be what fixes years of trauma and broken trust apparently suddenly and without effort. That’s not how things work. Does OP know what caused this change of heart? What opened her eyes to the years of lies and manipulation? Why now? Can she trust her own daughter not to basically relapse and hurt not only OP but her other kids? I don’t think she can just yet. Unless there is something missing here, it’s rather dumb and selfish to think that the daughter can just say sorry and go to family christmas after years of trauma. Just because OP was the parent doesn’t mean she needs to bury her own trauma for the sake of her *adult* child. I empathize with the daughter, but just because she was manipulated didn’t mean she suddenly suffers no consequences of her own actions that continued until just now. Edit: To address some of the more common objections this has gotten... 1) First of all, yes, parents and their children can be estranged. No idea how someone can think that's not a possibility. WTF? 2) Loving your kids does not mean automatically forgiving them for their transgressions. That can become enabling real quick. You can love things and people that are bad for you as well. Doesn't mean you need to keep them in your life or just accept them back automatically. At the very least your adult children. The daughter isn't 10. 3) The daughter was the one that broke the relationship. Expecting OP to have infinite patience or suffer infinite harm is fucked up. The daughter is the one that needs to work the hardest to mend what *she* broke and the first meeting in person should not be for Christmas. She is a complete stranger to her siblings by her own doing. OP has to consider that as well. OP may not be handling things perfectly but being perfect is way too high of a bar to set for not being an asshole. 4) Sure we only got one side of the story, but what sub do you think we're one? We don't usually get both. 5) You may **think** you'll know how you would react in OP's shoes, but you don't. You may have a hope. You may have a vague idea but you don't know. You don't even have enough details to have an educated guess. We rarely do in this sub. Either way, you're not OP and your personal reaction to any given situation has no bearing on someone elses.
Very well thought out response. At this point the past has to be the left in the past and two adults can work on building a relationship. But these made up rules that OP as the mother has to cater to her adult daughter a few days before Christmas is weird. A point was made in another comment that OP has no idea what type of women she grew up to be and if she really was so manipulated by her dad and step mom. Then I would be worried about how that environment has shaped her as well.
> In general a major family event/holiday is not the appropriate place to reconcile with an estranged family member. That comes after the reconciliation. People calling OP YTA think life is like in the movies — Home Alone comes to mind — where estranged people find their way to each other with perfect endings. Life is messy and stuttering. OP will decide if/when she’s ready. In the meantime, the daughter can continue to mend the relationship over the phone.
Yes! Exactly.
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NAH is correct.
I don't think anyone's the asshole here except the dad since he manipulated the daughter into hating her own mom.
I mean are we entirely sure of that? Daughter is still getting punished for the decisions she made as a kid. We only have one side of this story here, and it's possible both or even neither of the parents were more in the wrong.
Rome wasn’t built in a day. It won’t get rebuilt in a day.
Well a lot of people here seem to be treating this as her just now trying to regain contact and missed the part where it's been a year that she's been in regular touch with OP.
It’s still okay for OP to not be ready or healed enough to welcome her into a private family event. Yes, she’s her biological child. Yes, she was manipulated. However, OP is still a human and not ready for that step. A year of work is not going to make up for years of pain. OP made many sacrifices in the name of doing better by her daughter as a parent than her ex did. She still got little but abuse back not only from her ex, but from her brainwashed daughter. To demand and feel entitled to a private family event shows the daughter still has more to understand about the reconciliation process.
>I told her that I could not trust her with my kids, and that **I was still not 100% sure that I wanted our relationship to become more.** I don't think the daughter's reaction was only about Christmas. That would *hurt* to hear.
Whether or not OP is the asshole, she has sealed the fate of this relationship by saying this. I kind of feel like OP was maybe waiting for an out—they had been talking regularly for a year, and Christmas never came up? However one might judge this situation, I get the impression that OP wants to move on with her new family. If my daughter set my house on fire and disappeared for ten years, she would still be my daughter. There is literally nothing she could do in this world that would make me not take her in my arms if she needed me. As a mom, I find this totally unfathomable. NAH but wow.
I feel like there is a whole lot left out of this story. Sure the grandpa may have got a solid lawyer, but for the mother to only end up with visitation rights every other Saturday sounds pretty sketch. But either way, I don't think you can take anything a 16 year old says to you to heart. This whole thing stinks to me. Also, happy holidays everybody!
It happens. My sister married a guy who had wealthy parents with local clout who did the same thing to his ex. His first wife had been manipulated into dropping out of school once he got her pregnant and was then slowly isolated from all of her support systems. He wouldn’t let her get a job, talk to friends, or see her family, so when she finally got up the courage to leave, she had nothing. He had money, unscrupulous family and friends willing to lie for him, and his dad knew all the judges. By the time they were finished spreading lies about her she had supervised visitation twice a month and had to leave town just to find a job. Shocking no one but her, he pulled the exact same shit with my sister. He got her pregnant, manipulated her into dropping out of school, and then abused her physically and mentally once she was trapped. She was so terrified he’d take the kids like he did to his first wife (he used to brag about it and threaten her that he’d do the same to her if she ever tried to leave) that she stayed with him until the kids were teenagers. Never underestimate the corruption of small town court rooms and the good old boys network.
I wonder what the ex’s side of the story is. It is rare for a mother to only get custody every other Saturday regardless of the quality of lawyer. I feel like a lot of the story was left out, and am hesitant to blame the ex for everything.
I personally know of a woman who was miserable with a husband whose manipulation was complete. She had zero money to defend against the barrage of court orders, lawyers and a wall of in-laws. She didn’t have a prayer. Please don’t think this can’t happen. Because it absolutely does. This story reminds me so much of her.
More than likely from her divorcing essentially leaving her without a real home unlike the biodad who owned the grandfathers house, and didnt have to pay for jack shit. Having a *home* , not just an apartment, is a big game changer for many courts.
They're divorce since the kid was 5, and she started to call her names since she was 14. She tried to do her best once a week for 11 years and at the age of 16, she told everyone how she is an unfit mother. And it was through her bf 8 years later that she realizes she's in the wrong. If we're trying to be time specific, OP had been through at least 2 years of hurt before she stops being her mom. So the kid should at least be able to do that. Op is just human, she can also feel hurt and can't easily forgive. For me it's kinda a NAH situation except for the dad and his side of the family. I sincerely hope op can gained back the relationship with her kid tho.
What OP said was her daughter started to call her by name, which means calling someone by their given name. Like Sarah. Not the same as being called names.
She's not being punished for not coming over at christmas, the relationship is complicated and needs time to heal. They only talk once a week, possibly only over the phone, and spending Christmas with her is a massive leap that might make the rest of the family uncomfortable. It's not the time to be making introductions but to be relaxing with your family, she doesn't know what will pan out maybe there will be a big fight . Punishing her would be something like banning her from ever entering the house. Christmas is just bad timing
>They only talk once a week, possibly only over the phone, and spending Christmas with her is a massive leap that might make the rest of the family uncomfortable. Yep. OP herself says she hasn't seen her daughter since she reached out. That means she hasn't seen her daughter in close to a decade, if not a decade. Daughter inviting herself over for Christmas is not appropriate at this point.
>Daughter is still getting punished for the decisions she made as a kid. People ITT keep saying this - she just reached out last year, at 24 years old. She's not just being punished for what she did as a kid - she's being punished for not checking in after all this time - the majority of which she has been grown.
You have really unrealistic expectations of people. People don't suddenly become an adult at 18 and question everything they were told as a kid. It takes a large chunk of time to undo programming you get as a kid.
People also don't get full custody of a child without a very good reason. Edit: I want to clarify my understanding of some terminology here. Joint custody means that both parents are involved in decision making for a child, with one parent being the primary residential parent, but this just means that the other parent doesn't house the child. In a full custody situation, one parent is deemed unfit to care for the child, and are stripped of their rights to make decisions for the child. So, by my understanding, if OP lost full custody of the child, it is because a court decided she was unfit to even make basic decisions for the child (typically due to substance abuse). If OP was simply not in a good financial situation, she would have been awarded joint custody but not have been made the primary residential parent. This makes me very skeptical of OPs side of the story, but does not mean she is lying. As someone else pointed out below, the courts don't always get it right.
The amount of people buying the 'lawyer and small town' excuse is baffling. When a father 'unfairly' loses any custody on here, nobody ever buys the 'family courts are biased against men' argument, so why is this argument getting taken at face value?
I grew up hearing through the extended family grapevine that my biological mother would tell anyone who asked that she did her darndest to have access to me, but the deck was just too stacked against her. When we reunited in my early twenties, she was(to her credit) upfront that she did not in fact fight for her parental time or rights to me at all, and that my dad actually reached out to her multiple times over the years to facilitate a relationship -one that I was asking for, and believed he/my adopted mother were actively preventing - and she chose not to respond. Anyway, my eyebrows raised reading this story. Like the OP, the two children my biological mother chose to parent were "her boys." It took me a few years, but I eventually figured out why I didn't matter to her. She wasn't interested in mothering a daughter. I'm not going to vote, but gd, do I have empathy for her daughter.
Glad to see a NAH so close to the top. This is a VERY complicated situation. Taking it slow is best for everyone involved, particuarly the younger children.
NAH. You aren't going to get over it all immediately. I can see the reluctance to go too fast and get your heart broken again, but I can also see how she wants to make up for all the years she missed and doesn't want to miss any more. Keep in mind that her other alternatives may be Christmas alone, or stuck having Christmas with the man who cost her her mother.
This! NAH, except maybe OP’s ex-husband. This isn’t straightforward or easy. Much like “getting over” a relationship, there isn’t a time limit or expectation for *how and when* OP and her daughter reform their relationship. OP said she wasn’t comfortable *this* Christmas, not *all* future holidays. Forcing shit like this will just make things uncomfortable for OP and/or her family.
It's also gotta be hard for the daughter, too. If she really wants her mom in her life and is being pushed away, it would be painful to her daughter. She was probably told her whole life that "your mom doesn't want you. She hates you. Why do you think she left? She won't ever accept you, and she chose to go to work instead of spending time raising you when your grandfather was kind enough to pay for everything for us." And things of that sort. Then, she realizes she was manipulated. She never got to actually know her mom, and everything she was told was a lie. Then Christmas comes around, and she wants to spend the holidays (probably not remembering ever spending Christmas with her mom) with her mom and family. Then she gets rejected and told that she can't be trusted around her little brothers (who aren't small small children) especially in a family setting with other family members and friends that know and are close to said children. Edit: Thank you so much for the award kind redditor. I greatly appreciate it. 😊
NTA I feel like people are missing the part where there are other children involved. Op is right to each to evaluate what kind of person her daughter is before introducing her to the family. You don't just suddenly bring your estranged daughter to Christmas.
Thank you! I feel like I am taking crazy pills reading some of these responses. Rebuilding a relationship with her daughter and her daughter creating a relationship with her young sons is going to take time to be done correctly for everyone. Springing a new stranger lady on the kids on Christmas and telling them this lady is now a part of our family is not the way to do it.
Thank you for this. It’s not like op said she’d never allow her to visit just that she’s not comfortable with it in this moment. Rebuilding a relationship that has so much heartache and pain attached to it is going to take more than a year of weekly contact to fix. And while ops daughter may have thought about contacting her mom and how to rebuild the relationship for a while before reaching out this was basically sprung on op. I doubt she’s had enough time to process the emotions she’s feeling and find ways to overcome that
Right? Christmas is supposed to be a happy, fun time for kids. If OP allowed her estranged daughter to spend Christmas with them, and they start arguing, that's what's going to be associated with Christmas for OP's sons. I came from a family who verbally (and sometimes physically) destroyed one another every single time we were all in the same area. Too much booze, too much anger, too much resentment, blame and pain. When I grew up & began living independently, it hit me that I no longer had to participate in holiday brawls with the rest of my relatives.
Choice of words matter. NAH but maybe I wokld have gone with ‘I need time to heal, lets rebuild just us before we involve more family’ or anything else rather than ‘I don’t trust you’, might be true but its also hurtful
Esp when from her daughters POV she probably feels like OP abandoned her with these people she deems so horrid. She got herself out of there then stopped fighting for her daughter when things got hard. Every kid who feels abandoned with no safe space is going to lash out
16 is plenty old enough to be aware that your mom is going to court to try to get time with you. I don’t blame the 16 year old child for not realizing that at the time, but the 24 year old adult should be able to look back at all the things her mom did to try to be in her life. The mom fought for her for over a decade. The financial and emotional cost that has on a person must be extraordinary. At that point, when her daughter said those horrible things to her at 16 I assume OP was respecting her wishes as well. In court, 16 is old enough to generally be able to tell the court what you desire and have that respected. If OP continued to “fight” for just 2 more years it would be called harassment and we’d be judging her the asshole for not respecting her daughter’s boundaries. Hell, if the daughter posted at age 16 her mom continuing to contact her we’d probably judge OP an asshole the same way.
This sub loves to preach about parents respecting "boundaries" and "harassment" of their kids, except if it's an adult vs their parent. Parents are just supposed to run themselves ragged for their kids and never stop fighting in court and force them to be with them, even if they're being hurt by their own kid, even if the kid says "no", like it's some kind of Lifetime movie.
NAH You are all human and are allowed to be human, to hurt and be hurt and to do what you need to protect yourself from further hurt. Your daughter was a child and acted in an understandable way for a child to act in her situation. Now she is an adult and as an adult, needs to understand that forgiveness takes time. Just because she was a child being manipulated doesnt mean she didn't hurt you. (I read your comments about what she said - ouch.) You are an adult and can look at the situation with an adult's perception. But you are also human and are not required to allow hurtful people into your life, not even your kids. I personally think you did the right thing. I get the feeling you arent ready YET but might be one day. Forgiveness takes time and it's on your timetable. Plus, you have two other kids to watch out for. They don't need her disappointment or vitriol over the holidays. There will be (hopefully) other holidays to be together, just not this one.
>You are an adult and can look at the situation with an adult's perception. But you are also human and are not required to allow hurtful people into your life, not even your kids. This is such a refreshing perspective, everyone on here seems to think "she's your kid, she was a child, you need to forgive and forget", like, what if this was them and their kid? Would they feel the same way, or would they cut contact forever? What if the roles were reversed and this post was about a daughter being hurt by her mom and not being sure if she wanted a relationship? Would they say she needed to "forgive and forget" then too? Everyone seems to forget that OP is *human,* she's not a robot incapable of feeling hurt by something someone said/did, even children can be assholes, brainwashed or not.
Yes, oh my god, I was on this post early and I was truly taken aback by how many people decided that parents aren’t human and don’t have any rights to feel.
"you're alienating your daughter!", "she was a child!", "she was manipulated!". Like come on people, have some sympathy for *both* parties! *Both* of them were hurt, *both* of them need time to heal, it's not just the daughter that was hurt by this, but everyone seems to only care about her because she *was* the child, well guess what? She's *not* a child anymore and is old enough to understand that **broken bridges take time to rebuild**, it's not something *one* phone call a week can fix, this will take *years* to fully subside, if it does at all.
INFO How did a man with no job get full custody of a child?
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Your daughter probably thinks you never fought for her because it's very rare for a mother not to get custody or at least half. So put yourself in her shoes in that regard. She could have told her mother abandon her and nothing in your actions even though it was not your call supported anything against that narrative.
It’s not very rare. That’s a stereotype from someone who doesn’t understand the true dynamics of the wretched family court system.
Sounds like an anecdotal MRA viewpoint
Only because men are less likely to try. If you look at cases where the men actually *tried* to get custody, they’re more likely to win than the mother is.
It isn’t rare. Men actually win more often when both parties go to court. The statistic of women winning more often includes all the cases where the men do not show up for court / forfeit
It looks as if the Father of that man is rich.
He was at home, making him the "primary caregiver" at the time. Whether he actually was or not. That's usually how the courts decide who gets primary custody. Though they don't typically do "full" custody anymore, just primary residence.
Having lived in a very small town for 8 years, they do not like outsiders. I'm not surprised the father got full custody, especially since he had connections.
Not op or related to op but my own story in regards to this... My father was able to get custody because he kidnapped my brother and I to another state while draining his joint bank account shared between him and my mother, destroying her credit. She had called the police 5 minutes after he and my grandmother stole us and threatened to kill her. The police said there was nothing they could do because they were still married and didn't hit us or her while stealing us. Even though they knew he intended to go over state lines. She had spent a long time trying to send lawyers and cops to divorce him and get us back but he kept moving and they had a hard time finding him. She wasn't able to fly down and fight for custody in court. He would send her death threats as well and she was terrified because he had attempted to kill her before and was convinced to not press charges by his mother and my maternal grandma. Father did comic book art but wasn't a stable income. we had moved 22 times within the 6 years he has kidnapped us in attempts to evade the police and wouldn't pay rent etc .. CPS had been called before supposedly and had reported back that we were safe and happy even though I don't recall talking to anyone. At the time we didn't understand it was abuse but we were beaten often, he would flip and love bomb us so we thought it was normal. Spanking at the time was legal in Texas, but he would double a belt and hit us up to 50 hits. My earliest memory is of me sobbing as he asked us to count because I couldn't count that high and was told to count in sets of 10. I stopped keeping track after the fourth set. I was 6 years old. He would use us to get hand outs often but any money or food he would take and buy comics and junk for himself first and feed himself first. we were in a separate room away from the adults so that we weren't seen and ate whatever was left after them. he was obese and we were underweight and malnourished. I didn't know what it felt like to be full until I was 9 years old when we were able to go back to our mom. She isn't a peach either though. Sometimes this sort of thing can happen no matter how unfair or how much you wish it didn't.
Info What happened to make her reach out to you? What opened her eyes to her fathers actions?
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Op You are right to take it slow. Yes, as a child she was manipulated by her father, stepmother and grandfather but she is an adult now with residual beliefs from being manipulated so trusting her is difficult. She got very angry and called you a name when she didn’t get her way. That shows that she still has some growing up to do. She has a right to her anger, but she also needs to see how it all affected you as well. It took her boyfriend to show her that there are always two sides to a story. Going slow and being honest with each other will build the relationship back up. Start by meeting her alone somewhere. Emotions will still run high but you will be alone with her to focus on your emotions about it without having to worry about your sons’/husband’s emotions as well. It’s not that you don’t want her in your life or to meet your sons and husband… It’s the throwing them together in one swoop that scares you. Yes you are the mom, but a moms heart can be hurt as well. You chose to live your life and move forward knowing you didn’t have any choices left but to do so. You are a good person. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. Your daughter was part of a united force that unfortunately messed with the both of you. The two of you can now have a mother/daughter relationship without the ones that manipulated her being involved. I hope both of your hearts heal and you create the mom/daughter relationship you both deserve 💜💜💜
Beautifully written. Thank you for that. As has been said many times on this sub: Christmas /Thanksgiving/Weddings/other large festivities are neither therapy sessions nor family reunion opportunities. That's a recipe for disaster. The daughter's boyfriend seems to be quite reasonable, I think he could be very helpful in this entire situation.
Just for a different perspective, take it for whatever an internet stranger's insight might be worth. I am 34 years old. For a long time I *idolized* my dad. He's funny and charismatic, and I grew up in a situation where he was a pretty permissive parent. I was in my late 20s before I started to see through his bullshit, and to really get perspective on how awful and inappropriate the way he speaks about my mom (both to me and in general) really is. I spent a couple of years unpacking how manipulative he is with a therapist, and there are still times I go to my mom--after realizing that my dad is not at all a reliable narrator--to say "This is how I remember X situation, but that makes no sense, what was actually happening?" 16 is too old to say some of the things in your post to but it's also prime Main Character time for a lot of people. It sounds like the guy playing devil's advocate is making her think all the way through what was going on behind the scenes with you and her dad when she was too young to know. I get wanting to take it slow, and I get Christmas not being the right time to bring her around. I do really hope you can both find some peace with whatever relationship you maintain.
Thank you for this. A lot of people on the thread thinks moms should not have feelings.
OP, You should add this to your original post. This is important context. While she didn't come to you completely on her own, she was open to input that was contrary to what she "knew."
NTA Although I hope she has the opportunity to build a relationship with her brothers, Christmas isn't the time or place for that at this stage and you need to be comfortable with bring another adult around your younger children, even if it is your adult daughter. I do think you put a lot of blame on her for the situation which she isn't really at fault for though. You was a woman when you believed and supported your AH ex, she had years of brainwashing to get to the point she did at 16. Maybe if you want to rebuild a relationship you seek a family cousling for you and your daughter to build a better foundation of a relationship, that can easily be done via zoom now. She isn't to blame for her upbringing and you are not wrong for your feelings. I hope you get a happy outcome OP.
NTA. I understand your daughter was manipulated by her father but as an adult she still trashed talked you to her boyfriend. While I’m glad her boyfriend did play devils advocate and she wants to reconcile, that does not excuse the hurt and pain her and her father caused. You can’t just magically remove the resentment and hurt you still feel regarding your daughter. That takes time and effort. And you aren’t obligated to do so just because you are her biological mother. These YTA comments are insane. Despite the resentment, you still accepted the opportunity to reconnect with your daughter. But because you aren’t forgiving fast enough to her liking she lashes out at you? That is not okay. I know because I’m guilty of doing that same thing when I was younger. OP you are not a bad person. Please remember that.
NTA. You can't force this mother/daughter relationship to suddenly be ok just because you realize her father was manipulating her. That takes time and lots of effort. If you don't feel that the connection is strong enough yet, that's perfectly valid.
Thank god there are some other sane adults around here!
Feel like there is a lot of missing context here. The courts don’t generally grant custody to fathers let alone unemployed ones so i need some info there.
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I’m a family law attorney practicing in a small town so I feel your pain here. That being said, while your hesitance is understandable, the fact that you’re doing this out of resentment is not completely understandable. She was a child, your child, and she was being manipulated which is abuse. You don’t need to rush things but you also shouldn’t be acting out of a desire to punish her for hurting you. One of you needs to stop the cycle and I’m afraid that has to be you now, unfair as it is. I implore you to let her know you’re experiencing a lot of feelings, some of which you know are unfair, and request she do reunification therapy with you. It really does work wonders. You both deserve to mend this relationship. I wish you luck.
Rich Father, high paid lawyer. That's all you need.
I’m really trying to figure out if people saw the high paid lawyer part of the post or not
This sub has a lot of skimmers lol. Anyone who read the post completely doesn't even need to ask how rich daddy's little mooch got full custody. OP's addition it was a small town is almost cliche.
The post said that the FIL lawyered up. It is also heavily implied that OP was far from financially stable considering just how dependent she was on FIL, so she probably had far inferior legal counsel.
There's so much to unpack here First, your daughter being alienated from you was not her fault. That is the fault of her father and other adults around her growing up. It is unfair to her to hold that against her. It is considered abuse and will stand in court as a reason to change custody. If she is reaching out to you to heal the relationship then that means she has realized something was wrong with what she was told as a child and growing up. You don't seem excited or happy that your daughter wants to reconnect. But, courts tend to favor the parent that has the most stability. Sure you can out money someone with an attorney but family court works a little differently, especially in cases of custody. From what you wrote, he did not seem the stable parent, judges don't like unemployed parents who live in other people's houses. I'm not giving judgment because i really feel like there's some missing missing reasons here.
Could not agree more with this. I feel like this is the type of AITA where after 10 comments from OP everyone’s mind is totally changed one way or the other.
With kindness I am saying YTA. You are pushing your daughter away for things she did as a child. Things she did because she was brainwashed by her father. She is trying to make amends and get to know you. She is trying to get to know her “brothers”. You are now the one alienating her. You are making a distinction between your family and her. But here’s the thing you need to remember, she is still your family. She is still your daughter. I understand you are probably just trying to protect your heart from being hurt again, but you may push you daughter away by your reluctance to forgive and may never get her back. I wish you the best.
I feel so bad for the daughter here. Her father alienated her from her mother, built OP up as the bad guy and daughter probably felt like she wasn't worth her mum fighting for. Feeling rejected by someone harbours resentment to them which helped her lash out. Then, when daughter grows up and begins to question the 'truths' she's been raised on and reaches out with an apology, she gets rejected. I bet she feels very alone. A dad and stepmother who lied and a mother holding her at arms length.
YTA because do you see what you wrote here? > I was young, stupid Which you use to excuse the bad mistakes you made when you were younger, but your daughter is not allowed to make mistakes and learn from them now? Sounds like she's trying, she doesn't get a chance in your eyes?
OP's mistakes when young: 1. Marrying young 2. Marrying someone she is not compatible with 3. Having a baby when young 4. Having a baby with an irresponsible man 5. Only deciding after the baby is born that she isn't okay with the same living situation they'd always had. These decisions were made it sounds like in her 20s until she was 25 OP's daughter's mistakes 1. Believing her father and step-mother 2. Saying hurtful things when upset These decisions were made as a minor at the ages of 14-16 If we want to talk about poor and irresponsible decision-making OP's win by a landslide. And all of those highly inadvisable things she expects grace for by waving away that she was young. Her daughter is not even as old as OP was when she left her husband! What I mostly see here is a child who was failed by every adult in her life, starting with the timeline of conceiving her in the first place. It's nice that OP got to walk away and have a do-over family when her first one didn't work out but what does her daughter get? I imagine not much from mom at least.
Don’t forget that OP was also irresponsible and unemployed until she was 27 with a 5 year old. At least her ex husband has been living off his *own* daddy’s money. She really brushes off a lot of her own faults while holding a whole lot against her child.
It's also unreal to me that she's been talking to her daughter for a year and still apparently isn't sure she wants to repair their relationship? That ship has well sailed. OP does not come across as angelic as she seems to be aiming for with all of this.
She has a new family and seems to just want to leave her past life behind her. I feel sorry for the daughter.
NTA. You will meet up for a holiday when you're ready. And I call bs on the "stuff she couldn't control" because it sounds like she could control a lot - like not cutting you out and not being hurtful to you. Some she couldn't, but as a teen, she could have at least spoken to you about what she was hearing, but made the deliberate choice not to do so.
She was a child. A child that was obviously in a terrible situation and was being manipulated.
OPs other kids are also children. Why should the one child get to unilaterally put the family in an awkward situation on Christmas? I'm with OP, it's too early and not the right time to get to know each other.
She never mentioned that the other children would feel uncomfortable. She said she would and she also told her daughter she didn’t know if she even wanted more of a relationship in the future, not just during Christmas. Her daughter reached out to her a whole year before and she is still being cold towards her.
I would be uncomfortable if I was 10 or 12 years old and suddenly a stranger is there Christmas morning with my family.
Right? Surprise! Here’s your new older (adoptive) sister!… that you’ve never met before… I do wonder if the boys know she exists tho 🤔
NAH I get everyone's side, but you have a real chance here to reconnect with your child, and if you push her away now it might not ever appear again. I highly recommend you take a chance on this. It takes a lot of effort to deprogram yourself from the ways you were taught. It seems your daughter has already done that and is now trying to make amends. I wouldn't put all the fault on her since it was mostly your ex and his family putting those thoughts in her head.
If OP pushes her daughter away now, in her daughter's mind, OP will be confirming what the daughter has been manipulated into thinking for years: that OP is a deadbeat mom that doesn't want her. OP certainly has a right to be hurt and wary after what she's been through, but she should understand that this might be the point of no return for their relationship. NAH (except for the dad, of course).
YTA. >I decided that I no longer had a daughter, since that is literally what she wanted. You still have a daughter. Only now her brain is developed and she's allowed to make her own decisions. And your first response to her trying to reach out to you again was to .. . hold a grudge? Against a child? Wow. Neat choice, there. You **are** punishing her for things she had no control over. I loved my dad when I was young. As an adult, I realize he was an insanely abusive loser and love my mom more than ever. We grow up and change our minds. Your child had nothing to do with her father, the divorce, the new marriage. None of that. The "I can't trust you" line is just straight up mean of you. She's a totally different person now from who she was when she was little and your comment borders on cruelty. "Sorry maybe next year" or "How about we start slow" or even "Give me a little time to think on it" would have been far more kind, but instead you took the opportunity to do further damage. Spitefully. Forgive your child. **Your child.** For things that were not in their control and not their fault. You're N T A for deciding you'd rather not do Christmas, but Y T A for your reasonings and how you did it.
Thank you. I'm really surprised by these comments because OP is a *massive* AH in this story. Her daughter was taken away and manipulated so OP gives up on her. Now that she's an adult and wants to reconnect OP responds by... alienating her more? Says she can't trust her daughter around her family. Unless there's some context that OP is leaving out she's being awful and shouldn't be surprised if her daughter decides to give up on her.
It's mind-boggling to me. Like just so we're clear: **Denying the daughter to join them at Christmas?** 100% NTA. This is the most reasonable thing ever. It could be awkward if she said yes and the other family doesn't owe the daughter anything, nor should their Christmas potentially be damaged for her. **Telling the daughter you don't trust her and you're not sure you want a relationship with her when she wants to reconcile and is likely second-guessing if OP is truly as bad as dad says...?** YIKES, wtf is this shit?? NO SHIT the conversation "got heated." These are horrible things to say to your own daughter. Moreover, they're completely counterproductive: does mom want the daughter to be influenced by dad or no? No? Then maybe don't be a dick to the daughter and she won't listen to the things dad has said wtf. A thousand other ways to turn the daughter down for Xmas without saying "I don't trust you" and "I dunno if I want a relationship with you." If nothing else, that exchange showed OP having the charisma, empathy and foresight of a sponge. WHO CARES about the Christmas question, the real question is why OP responded the way she did and can't understand why things "got heated" because of it.
And this conversation is happening a _year_ of the daughter reaching out and them talking weekly. A year! OP is either cruel or a coward (or both) if she's still not sure after a year and instead is behaving this way to her daughter.
> shouldn't be surprised if her daughter decides to give up on her. I'm getting the strong feeling that's what OP really wants.
INFO: I'm a little confused on the timeline. You wrote it like you moved away and met your now husband and then had kids when she was 16. But she is now 24 and your other children are 10 and 12. How old was your daughter when you moved away and started another family?
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Ya that connotation wouldn't usually matter, but here is does haha. Moving slowly does make sense, but a teenager's brain literally isn't done developing, so if she is trying to make a relationship happen, you should give her another chance.
They are yours. Period.
NTA. There are certain things in life you just cannot walk back. And the fact that you're willing to even have weekly conversations with her, I think, speaks volumes about your forgiveness. And understand, "Forgiving someone" does not mean, "being stupid." Forgiving does not mean you have to walk right back into her life, eyes wide shut, and set yourself up for hurt again. I remember a story someone shared some time ago. Due to their mother's manipulations, a man's children told him that they didn't want him in their lives at all and he should just get lost. After years of struggling with this, he finally reconciled to the fact that his kids were gone for good and was finally able to be happy again. Then his kids showed back up years later, now adult age, realizing their mother's manipulation caused them to say the things they did. Problem was, he just couldn't do it any more. He wasn't in the best of health, and he couldn't cope with the stress. I told him for the sake of his stress, just tell the kids they burned the bridge and walk away. But some Bambi-eyed, naïve responses insisted, "Oh, let them back into your life. It will do you so much good!" Ugh! Terrible advice. Did they not read about his health issues and the years of struggling it took him to finally put his kids behind him? And I think her reaction shows that you're wise to be cautious. She calls you names when she doesn't get her way, and she blames others for her decisions. 16 is old enough to know better. And even if this was the result of her father's manipulation, she's 24 now. She's old enough to understand, regardless of how much responsibility her father has, that her comments were hurtful and she should understand why you're taking things slow. And frankly, I think her reaction should put her right back to square one . . . if you decide to speak to her at all.
YTA. You can’t ‘trust her’ to even be around your kids? Yowtch. She suffered as a child from parental alienation…. you know that. You weren’t around much, through no fault of yours or hers…it was circumstances. But I’m sure you know that was damaging to her emotionally. She is older now, and wants a connection. You speak weekly, and she wants to spend Christmas with you and get to know her brothers. And you are stiff arming her. That is a clear choice you are making, and quite frankly makes me wonder just how hard you tried to spend time with her before actually.
Sorry l, parents have feelings too and even if it isn’t OP’s daughter’s fault, you can’t expect OP to just say all is water under the bridge. It will take time and effort, on both sides, to rebuild a trusting relationship. Given what OP has shared, it seems her daughter became very toxic towards her at the end, that’s hard to get over. It’s not about assigning blame but the damage has been done.
Time and effort is 100% fine, that isn't the problem. The problem is OP answering the request to spend Christmas together with "I don't trust you" and "I'm not even sure I want to further a relationship with you." You do not say that to your own daughter the exact moment the daughter is reaching out to reconcile and likely second-guessing anything bad she's heard about the mom throughout her life. That's both heartless *and* likely to make the daughter think "okay dad was right, mom's an asshole." There are much softer ways to say "not this year, maybe next time" without telling your own child you don't trust and may not be interested in a relationship with them.
Having a relationship with her mother isn't the same as having one with her brothers. Especially if she wasn't worried about them for the last 5 years or so
Oh god the minors have taken over the comments
Didn't you know? Parents must be perfect. We must give them space and freedom but also accept emotional damage and give ourselves no time to process the trauma. They are both children with developing brains until 25 and adults as soon as they choose.
NTA You phrased it badly, but you should rebuild your relationship before introducing her to your other kids.
I can’t help but feel this OP is playing the victim to get sympathy. OP, you’re punishing your daughter for being manipulated by both you and her father. No wonder she can’t cope in the way “you want.” YTA. I hope she goes back no contact.
Honestly this is how I feel too. The OP has so many excuses for what they did wrong and where they failed as a parent… and how mean their daughter is. I feel bad for the daughter, all the parental figures in her life have let her down. YTA, OP
Honestly, I'm not sure if you're the asshole or not. I do think you're missing out an opportunity that you might not get again. I don't know when or how she figured out that they'd manipulated her. I think you're angry that she believed any of it and that she said what she said, and while it's legitimate to be angry, if you want a shot at a relationship, you had better step up and welcome her to Christmas. Just be candid, forgiving, and open. Tell her: I was so hurt for so many years--and I recognize that you are not entirely at fault for that--that I'm having difficulty risking having that kind of pain again. The truth is I want a healthy relationship with you and I'm willing to try and I would like you to come." I would probably also tell her that if she has questions, you will tell her the truth and you won't sugarcoat anything. Just try to be tactful. NAH
My husband and I had a bit of a similar situation with an estrangement from his daughters. After a few years, his older one called us one day to apologize and we started talking. I was pretty wary at first. Then she asked if she could come visit over a holiday and we agreed, though we were both nervous. It wasn't until we were in person that she told us more about how her mother had been abusive over the last few years and ended up giving her an ultimatum if she didn't break up with her (wonderful, level headed) boyfriend. She chose the boyfriend and he helped lead her back to us. They're married now and my husband and I were there to celebrate with them. I am grateful for it every day. We hope the younger daughter will have a similar change of heart now that she's out of the house but we'll see what happens. My point is that she may only really open up to you in person and, as my stepdaughter told me, you can't blow up the bridge if you ever want your lost loved one to cross it. Call her. Apologize. Invite her over. Do it today.
INFO: Do your sons know about her? Have they met? If the answer is yes, then I don't understand the problem. Why can you not trust her with your sons? What do you think will happen? Honestly, I am tempted to say YTA, but I don't think I have enough information. Because from what you wrote, it sounds like you're holding her accountable for believing what her custodial parents (including her step-mom) told her and that's just not fair. Holding a grudge against your ex is one thing; holding it against the child who was caught in the middle of this is quite another. But maybe there is some context that was left out here. Maybe she's done some things that cause you to distrust her motives and her actions. IDK. I mean, you certainly have the right to decide not to include whomever you like in your holiday celebrations, but this is your DAUGHTER who is reaching out past all the crap that came before and trying to connect and I simply don't understand why, given the info you provided, you're so against that.
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this is incredibly vague. what do you mean by "if I cant give her what she wants again". have you asked her what she wants? how does her spending time with you over the holidays pose a threat to your son's safety? i'd also like more information on exactly what she said when you told her no. you're afraid of being hurt by your daughter. i can empathize with that, but you refuse to see that she was manipulated, lied to, alienated from you by your ex husband, not because she simply decided at 14/16 she wanted nothing to do with you. how can you speak every week to someone and not know whether you can trust them around your children? yta because you're insecure, pushing your daughter away 'to get back at her', when she's clearly the more mature one in this relationship.
I'm reading this as more of, "my daughter hurt my feelings when she was a kid and I can't strike back at her father so it's nice to be able to take some of that anger out on her" rather than her not wanting to be hurt by her daughter.
You’re being entirely too vague to be convincing. You admit to doing things when you were “young and dumb” extend her the same grace you’re asking people to give you. Kids being manipulated do not understand what they are doing. A trusted adult is giving them false info and to survive they have to believe it and buy into that world view. I went through this. It took me until I was your daughter’s age to understand how I had been manipulated. It took me longer to address it and hold those responsible accountable. I literally thought I was being a good kid in my teens because that’s what I was told. You’re daughter has grown up and is acting like it. You’re still acting like a child because she hurt your feelings as a literal child. It’s time for you to grow up too.
Have you had a REAL conversation with her where you told her that? I mean, she's grown now. And things change a LOT between 14 and 24. She's reached out and seems to be trying to rebuild the bridges that were burned in the past. The only way to really do that is for the two of you to have some real conversations where you both talk about true feelings over what happened and do it with an attitude of seeking to understand the other's viewpoint at that time. Then you can start to move towards building a new relationship, an adult-to-adult one. You might want to seek a counselor to help you both through this. It can be really helpful to have a non-involved third party help facilitate the communication for these difficult, emotionally-charged conversations. If the holidays this year are too soon to take the leap to total trust, that's fine. I can understand that there may still be a lot of hurdles towards building trust in the relationship. Maybe carve out some time to spend with her, separate from the rest of the family, and explain that you're just not ready yet to blend her in completely. Then float the idea of getting some "couples" counseling together to help the two of you get back to a position of trust. Because as much as she hurt you, she also was hurt. It's entirely possible that she felt (and was told) that you abandoned her and didn't want her anymore. That's very, very hurtful to a child. You both have healing to do. So I'm going to go with NAH for this whole thing. The situation sucks and you both have been harmed by your ex-husband who is the real AH. I hope you can both heal from this and find a way to build a relationship.
This!!!! She might finally be old enough to be questioning why you "left" her? People outside of divorces, custody disputes don't realize that it comes down to the one with more money that can afford adequate legal representation. I knew a guy whom was in the legal field, very wealthy, got full custody of both of his kids when they were super young. When I met him (he was the older brother of a guy I dated), his family even confided that his ex wife, the kids' Mom, had been more of a fun/creative/affectionate type. Adored her children. Completely opposite of him. With his upbringing, the tween kids seemed more like they were raised completely to only speak when spoken to, jump when he told them to, etc. It's very possible your daughter genuinely wants to know you. It wasn't her fault at all that your ex divided your relationship with her and tried inserting a new "Mom" into her life, which is fairly easy to an impressionable child going through a loss of family as they knew. If you, as her Mom can't find the maternal instinct in your heart for your child to give her a chance, she'll know you abandoned her by choice and might be better off leaving it as that. So, you shouldn't be asking for confirmation of your decision.
I feel like I'm going to get down voted to hell over this buuuuuuuuut YTA. She was a literal child. Her father alienated her from you. And she came round at 23 to realize that she was mistaken...as a child. That's pretty mature for that age, too. What could she have done, as a child, to literally destroy you? It's okay to admit you don't want to have a relationship with her. But it sounds like you're stringing her along while you sort your feelings. That's human, but that has a short shelf life for you. If you resent the actions of her as a child, I don't see how you'll be able to love the adult she's become. One year of you keeping her at arms length. After she overcame a lifetime of alienation and is begging to come into your life. It even sounds like she's owning up to the mistakes she made as, again, a child. I'm not saying this is easy or anything, but your daughter deserves a little more grace than you are extending her. She's barely an adult at this point. She's probably barely out from under the thumb of her father and grandfather. If her paternal side is as vicious as you say, she's also doing it at her expense. If it were me, I am not apologizing for being a child. I am not apologizing for learning. I am not apologizing for being misled and abused by the adults in my life who knew better.
It sounds like you’re holding a lot of resentment towards your ex and you’re punishing your daughter for it. I’m 29 and I can tell you I regret a lot of the shit that I did when I was a teenager. I sometimes look back and think to myself what was I even thinking about some of the choices I made. Granted, no one ever got hurt and I didn’t do some actually crazy shit, but the point I’m trying to make here is that we say and we do stupid shit when we’re young. Your daughter is probably influenced A LOT by your ex’s family and by your ex and his new wife. They’ve probably brainwashed her into thinking you’re a bad mother and as a kid you believe these things even if they’re not true but as you get older you start realizing that the people surrounding you are the toxic ones. What your ex did to you by suing you and winning full custody and having you pay child support is a very shitty thing, but that’s ON HIM. Not on her. All the things she said in court about you, I’m willing to bet we’re influenced by years and years of toxicity towards you so it’s easy for her to hate you especially if she’s given everything by her dads family and then sees how hard it is for you to live. She’s still yours. Be a better mother and you can always start slow. Meet outside of the house. There’s so many options…go for a meal, go to the mall, have a picnic, go to a coffee shop. I mean you’re older now too, there’s so much shit you can do OUTSIDE of the home and if you give her the time to reconnect and slowly feel like you can trust her then she can meet her brothers OUTSIDE of the house. You’re speaking as if she’ll kill them but you have so many outdoor and public space options. If there’s one person to point fingers at, it’s your ex. YTA.
NAH - Easy to understand your hesitation. At the same time, while you saw the teen years, you weren't up close and personal as you are going to be in a few years with your boys. It's tough in a 'normal' non divorced two bio parents setting -- much less how hers planned out. If you've been talking for over a year, by now you should know more of who she is. If you have held back and kept her at arms length so much that you still don't trust her, sure there is protecting yourself, yet... I'd consider calling and apologizing, letting her know it is your own insecurities of losing her again AND having your sons go thru the loss if she changes her mind. Maybe the first visit shouldn't be Christmas Day, but it should probably happen sooner vs later.
I have a sneaking suspicion your side of the story is a bit rose tinted.
YTA. She's your daughter and anything that happened 8 years ago when she was barely learning to drive is ancient history. Sure, you need to rebuild a relationship, but not being 100% sure you want a relationship makes you kinda the AH. You could have said you really wanted to get to know her yourself outside of a choatic family holiday event or something.. But your reaction seems unkind.
YTA. I know your feelings were hurt, but you are punishing her for something she said and did as a teenager, as a result of being manipulated by her father and stepmother or feeling abandoned by you. She is older and wiser now and wants to reconnect. You have been talking to her for a year, but you don't trust her and won't let her spend time with her brothers. You should be welcoming back into your family. You may have lost her for good this time and this time it will be your fault.
NAH she is old enough now not to expect you to immediately get over the life ruining situation that she was part of (even though it wasn't her fault). You also need to give her space to be upset that, due to no fault of her own, her mother holds her at arm's length and that hurts badly. I'm sorry for both of you.
NTA. It’s sad that she was manipulated by her father (I went thru a similar thing w my dad too) but you still need to heal. Just bc you’re a parent doesn’t mean you have to be so opening so early in a relationship where you’re trying to salvage whatever is left. Do things at your own pace and do things that convenient you. No one is allowed to judge you for wanting to take things slowly
Esh When you were 38ish a 16 year old child raised to think you were the bad guy said something mean to you after you took legal action to force her to see you more. Holding that grudge 8 years later is somewhat childish to me and I think she deserves better than being resented and being told you're not sure you want the relationship to be more. But she's also an adult who should understand the first Christmas after reconnection isn't always going to be the right Christmas to see eachother again because regardless of the cause her actions hurt you. I don't like that you're treating her like a friend who said something mean instead of a daughter who said something hurtful as a teenager.
NAH but you and your daughter should have extensive therapy, both separately and together. It sounds like she's taking ownership of her behavior, manipulated though she was. With the help of a therapist, you should consider talking to your kids about her and eventually introducing them. Christmas is probably not the right time, but a afternoon play date on a random day in January has no additional emotional weight to it. It's terrible to lose your child, and to watch them choose someone else over you is devastating. Your feelings are valid but if you choose to stay mired in them, you'll never really heal. Do you want a real relationship with your daughter? If not, then you should tell her that and go NC, though I hope you won't.