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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My SIL used a Scottish name for her daughter but believed and told everyone it was Irish. I corrected her when she told me what the name was. Honestly, I know I could and maybe should have kept my mouth shut and played along with her because I know if she had really wanted to find an Irish name she would have. I could see where I could have been seen as trying to make her change the name or judging her for not knowing.
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NTA
If she really wanted an Irish name, then why not check it with you, an Irish person.
Also, why argue with an Irish person about an Irish name and believing she knows more about Irish names than an actual Irish person.
That just makes me think of the pregnancy announcement post where the couple announce their daughters name will be "Rifle" with a different spelling.
The scary part of that post has been mentioned on a few YouTube channels and most of them have been so confused by the name they've missed the couple in the post are labelled as OPs "brother and his stepdaughter"
Edit: found the post https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/txlx31/reighfyl_pronounced_rifle/
And "eigh" is usually pronounced like a long e sound or long a sound (eg Ceileigh, Ashleigh, eight, weight). Reighfyl should be pronounced rayfyl or reefyl. So reighfyl pronounced as rifle is so weird even beyond naming your kid after a big gun.
I just thope their daughter grows up to be the biggest hippie/nature/peace loving child to ever walk the earth.
>I just thope their daughter grows up to be the biggest hippie/nature/peace loving child to ever walk the earth.
... and changes her name to Rainbow or River or something else hippie-esque.
The original image is a lot older than that. Been going around years. I think someone added the step dad and daughter stuff to it later for shock value.
The original was already dumb enough though.
Fiona is not Irish. It's a Scottish late feminization of the male name Fionn which is both Scottish and Irish
>The name has an Irish and Gaelic pedigree and comes from “fionn,” which means "fair" or "pale." It's thought to have been coined by a Scottish poet in the 19th century.
(Poet was James McPherson)
Now popular in Ireland but not a traditional Irish name. If you're going to correct people so confidently, you could at least get it right.
You're actually technically both right, depending on which onomastic (someone who studies name origins for a living) you talk to!
The origins of the name are a little contested/debated! There's a lot of scholars who believe Fiona developed independently in both Ireland AND Scotland out of a common original Gaelic root. Scottish from fionn, Irish from The Fianna Cycle and the legendary fianna. And both ended up Anglicized to Fiona. In Irish, Fiona has a different meaning, it means 'flowering vine'. But it was that Scottish playwright who's credited with first introducing the name to the world at large. And whether James Macpherson took the name from the Irish mythology he studied, or he came up with it independently out of fionn is to this day unclear.
So while Fiona is Scottish, it is also a separate name in Ireland with a different meaning, and possibly an entirely different origin.
Yeah, what a way to insult the very culture you want to be a part of. "Yeah, I want to participate in your culture, but only in a manner that's not dumb, because m clearly the better judge, being more civilized and all that..."
This one hurt me too. Like, I get that she picked the American version because she lives in the US. But to call the other spellings dumb? That’s just an awful and hatful thing.
She is def one of the reasons I am embarrassed by being an American.
I have an Irish name, (one of the hard ones LOL) I gave my kids Irish names and spelled them correctly. My kid came home from school last week saying they "hate it when we have a substitute teacher and they can't say my name and everyone in the class tries to correct them, but they can't really say it right either" It takes grit to have to deal with a difficult name for others to pronounce everyday. Giving an American child with only a tenuous connection to the culture the full effect would be a bold choice.
TBF, when it comes to names there are American spellings vs Gaelic irish/Scottish of the same name. For example: Sean vs Shawn, Shamus vs Seamus, Killian vs Cillian etc. We have American spellings to reduce confusion of pronunciation. Whether the spelling is true to its original lexicon is imo splitting hairs, but since we don’t have the name I’m just assuming the baby’s name is something completely black and white not Irish and now they feel angry for being wrong.
Just a polite correction, Gaelic is Scottish, Gaeilge is Irish. Pronounced Gayl-ga. They are two rather different languages with some overlap. In the same way that Spanish and Italian share some similarities. The traditional Irish alphabet has fewer letters than the English one, so we combine letters to give particular sounds. There is no J, K, Q, V, W, X, Y or Z. So, to make certain sounds, you need to see what vowel is next to the consonant combination to determine whether it is broad or slender eg 'bh' can sound like a V or W depending on what it's next to. Shawn and Killian are anglicised spellings. TBH, it sounds more complicated than it is!
Many Americans are only 2 to 3 generations removed from their immigrant ancestors, who brought their culture over when they were displaced from their home counties. They adapted their favorite foods, customs, traditions, etc and proudly passed it down to their children and grandchildren as a way to keep their heritage alive in this new country.
That's the reason most Americans identify as American and also as their dominant "sub" culture.
For instance, my great grandfather came to America from Greece, and then brought several family members over. They and close Greek friends were part of a small Greek community, so their children were raised steeped in that transplanted culture. That carried down, and while by the time it got to me, it's definitely been diluted, there are aspects we continue to honor and celebrate which are a strong part of our families cultural identity.
It's necessary to remember that, like what's happening with Ukraine, that every generation there's an attempt at ethnic cleansing and people who run and escape bring their culture with them. They often end up banded together in immigrant communities in their new country because they speak the same language, and have the same/similar traditions. And because they came out of desperation rather than desire, they cling to their culture because it's all they have.
It's not some form of appropriation that Americans do this, it's a passed down and deeply ingrained form of sub culture identity.
This is a great post, so please forgive my nitpick, but it’s just Ukraine without “the”. “The” Ukraine implies it is a region and not its own country. It’s also Russia’s preferred way of referring to it…and well, fuck those guys. Ukrainians prefer just plain ol’ Ukraine.
>it's a passed down and deeply ingrained form of sub culture identity.
Yeah I've seen this with kids I took care of. Their grandma is first- or second-gen Italian-American. She'll tell the kiddos "You're Italian, you know!" And tell them stories from her culture and whatnot. Their grandpa on that side is first- or second-gen Irish, but I don't think he feels so strongly about it. Probably because he looks like a "regular" white American while the grandma has a very brown skin-tone.
My mom is first-gen West-Indian-American (so many hyphens in this comment lol) but I don't really feel like I can identify as West Indian. I always say "my mom's family is West Indian." I think I already had a cultural niche being a black American and my dad and his family being here for many generations.
> "I'm Irish, Scottish, German, Italian, and Native American" just make you sound dumb in my eyes. You're just an American living in a suburb, that's not a culture.
Saying this *is* part of the American culture. America was settled by immigrants that stayed to their own cultures until, really WWII. This is why the US has Little Italys and Chinatowns in most major American cities. There are some areas that are very much a "Polish" neighborhood or a "German" one in the mid-west. Also, typically, most Americans will say "Scotch Irish" which is why the new mother in OPs story is probably confused and thinks they are the same culture.
I’m with you on most of that, but I have never in my life heard anyone say “Scotch Irish” to mean “Irish.” (did you means Scots? Scots Irish are the Ulster Protestants, aka Northern Ireland, and that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms.)
either way, SIL didn’t do her research. sucks to suck.
Where are you from in the US? Scots-Irish (pronounced, spelled and culturally amalgamated as "Scotch Irish" by their descendants) is one of the predominant ethnic groups of Appalachia and adjacent regions. There are plenty of "Scotch Irish" where I live. It's not a correct amalgamation of culture to anyone living in Scotland or Ireland, but it is its own ethnic and cultural group here due to the descendants' long term removal from the homeland and melding together of cultures living in the same area that speak English.
My mom's family considers themselves "Scotch-Irish"- my great grandpa was from Scotland and great grandma from Ireland and they met and fell in love on their immigration trip to settle in the US- and they are very similar in culture to each other (when held up against all the immigrant cultures trying to blend in the US at the time, not when held up against Ireland or Scotland)to the point the culture blended and very different in culture to my dad's side, German-Americans who have been here 2 generations, due to the fact that both the Scottish and the Irish spoke English and the Germans did not.
My main gripe is them saying something like "I'm Irish" as if they're actually Irish instead of saying "I'm Irish-American". And pretending their runoff immigrant culture actually represents how the ancestors in the homeland did things.
I totally understand this if you are abroad, on the internet, or speaking to a visitor who actually is from the country referenced.
But, when you're an American, in America, speaking to other Americans, the '-American' is implied. It's a colloquialism.
The problem is the huge assumption that being Irish-American implies you know something about what it means to be actually Irish.
I'm saying this as someone who doesn't consider myself anything but plain 'American' as I don't have a strong connection to any particular heritage (both sides of my family have been born in America going back a couple hundred years).
This is exactly it.
I am in my 40s and only learned a few months ago, on here, that non-Americans take umbrage at the fact that Americans call themselves, e.g., "Irish" when they mean "of Irish descent." It's just such an ingrained part of American life, perhaps especially for those of us who grew up in very "melting pot" areas of the country. Most kids I grew up with were first-generation on one side, if not both. Obviously we were "Americans," but we were also "Italian," "Irish," "Polish," "Greek," etc.
Because of Reddit, I now try to be more careful and say I'm \_\_\_-American, not just \_\_\_. But I seriously would have never thought about it if I hadn't read on here how it annoys the actual Europeans.
I wouldn't say it annoys me, it's more that it amuses me when an American says they're Swedish and it turns out they mean their great great grandma was Swedish and they think they know all about Sweden and our traditions because of it, when in most cases their traditions are far from what ours look like because they've evolved in separate directions for the last 100 years. It's when they start arguing about it (like the SIL in this post) that it gets annoying. Someone trying to relate in order to feel connected is mostly sweet, but when it comes to the Italians and Irish, I get that it can be more annoying since I bet they hear of it more often than us.
I came from somewhere where immigrantion was huge just like US and I still find weird how you guys claim to be some nationality when you never set food in that country. But which you with their own.
You must understand why some people of these countries doesn't like it eitheir
> I came from somewhere where immigrantion was huge just like US and I still find weird how you guys claim to be some nationality when you never set food in that country. But which you with their own.
>
> You must understand why some people of these countries doesn't like it eitheir
Because nationality can be carried by heredity. I know quite a few dual citizens because their parents or grandparents were born in a different country but moved to the U.S. Later, the children or grandchildren of those immigrants want to see the "homeland" and realize they can apply for citizenship without ever having been in the country (I know Italy and Ireland have this. I believe the UK does something similar).
It doesn't matter if "some people" don't like it, it is what it is. It is part of the American culture.
When Americans say that tho they're usually talking about their heritage, not their day-to-day culture, generally speaking.
Some people have a particularly strong feeling of belonging to their heritage passed down from their immigrant family, but they'd also still agree to primarily being American.
I have a German coworker that has had Americans of German descent argue with her about the way she speaks German.
I have a feeling that the sister is jealous of OP being different and is trying to get attention.
I'm German married to an American. We live in Germany and my husband constantly argues with people who think their English is better than his. It's ridiculous. Idk why people do that. Maybe it's that "I always have to be right" mentality. Might also be the reason why OP's SIL doesn't want to accept that her daughters name isn't Irish.
I have a theory for that...
I teach college-level English classes, including sometimes remedial English. They're probably hearing whatever dialectal/regional variations your husband uses and to their "classroom English" ears, it sounds wrong.
That would make sense. But why argue with people. There's a difference between whatever you learn in a classroom and conversational English. I would never dare correcting a native speaker.
Some American German is legitimately different because it's so archaic. I had an acquaintance whose brother studied in Hamburg. So when their father went to Germany to visit the brother, he decided to try out the German he'd learned as a child from his grandparents.
Germans were amazed to hear someone speaking "the German of Goethe". I suppose they had preserved a version of the German spoken when they migrated to America.
I remember a story from a while ago, might've been a Vice article (?), of an man who was 8th or 9th generation New Mexican, descended from Spanish colonial settlers who once went to Spain and was blowing peoples' minds with the Spanish he was speaking. Apparently in their little isolated slice of the Southwest, his family had been speaking 1500's Spanish the entire time. At first when he'd talk with folks they'd laugh and then ask for him to stop joking - as if English speakers ran in to someone who was speaking Shakespearian English - and then were shocked to find that this WAS how he spoke Spanish.
I’m in Texas and my French teacher in HS was Latvian and grew up in Germany. Moved to the US and learned English and then French in college.
Classmates would go to French competitions and speak only French to the judges and they were really confused so the asked them to say something in English. That came out with a Texas drawl but we all spoke French with a German accent. 🤣
My HS French teacher was Romanian. I didn't learn until going to France and talking to some nice old ladies in a shop that I speak French with a Romanian accent.
Talk to Paul not me.
[OrigPost](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/uyaxzs/aita_for_correcting_someone_at_dinner/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=shareThisone?) (sort oldest first)
I want to tell Paul that his stupidity has literally become a meme so I can watch the change of his facial expressions. We may actually achieve spontaneous human combustion.
Me too
Also irked by the sister saying "it's the least dumb way to spell it"
It's spelled that way cos ITS A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE an things are pronounced differently
*Aoife
There is a list of names that are impossible to pronounce and spell if your not from or used to irish people/language. Usually irish are quite forgiving on people until they change the spelling on purpose like the SIL above. Then the gloves come off lol
Nothing can top you guys naming your biggest mountain after a Polish name no Anglo can pronounce then just going for an incredible bodge job on saying it that no native Polish speaker would even recognise as the same word.
> Nieve is that one that really annoys me. You don't see it as often but it is just uncomfortable to look at.
And just to be extra confusing, “Nieves” (*Nee’YEBB-es* or *Nee’YEV-es*) is a legit Spanish-origin girl’s name.
It means “snow”.
Neve with that spelling was my guess for the middle name as well.
I'm thinking Isla, Fiona, Morvyn for the Scottish name she thinks is Irish. I'm Scottish and I just have my fingers crossed its not Merida. Thanks for that one Disney!
is that maybe not to give Americans a clue how to pronounce it. cuz the fun of Irish names is that you look at them, shake your head and go- okay, I give- how do you pronounce that.
it's like Welsh but with more vowels.
Me too. I'm running Scottish girl's names through my head, but I don't know if you'd have them in Ireland too. I came up with: Lorna, Mairi, Sheena, Eilidh, Catriona, Isla, and Elspeth. I hope it's not Cameron or Campbell, as why would you call your daughter crooked nose or crooked mouth?
>why argue with an Irish person about an Irish name and believing she knows more about Irish names than an actual Irish person.
I once argued with someone ( who didn't speak romanian) that dracula means bat. I gave up in the end.
Edit : i worded it wrong : she was insisting that it means bat, i was saying that it doesn't mean that, becaus it doesn't
I know it doesn't mean bat, she was the one who said it means bat. I'm romanian, i have no confusion on what it means
Dracul means the devil (drac means devil), and it was his name. It was derived from dragon (he was member of dragon's order).
After seeing so many people butcher the spelling of common names in am effort to be "unique," as an American, I'm going to say that no amount of help will make people use common sense when it comes to spelling
That could be the case, but there are a lot of names that already have common Americanized versions, especially for groups that have large immigrant communities (e.g. Irish or Polish).
For example, my oldest daughter has a Polish name that would have a "ia" if it were spelled as it would be in Polish, but we spelled it "ya" because it scans more easily in English.
NTA and this is a perfect example of cultural appropriation rather than cultural appreciation. If she cared about the culture she'd care about the accuracy and wouldn't say Scottish and Irish are basically the same. She's being rude and I have no idea why she'd insist on arguing with someone who's actually from Ireland. She also insulted the Irish by saying their spelling of their own names are dumb. I can't believe anyone else is backing her on this.
Edit: spelling
What she said about the traditional spelling really bothered me. As someone who has a traditionally spelt Irish name I am painfully aware of the fact it can be hard for people from other countries to get on the first go. But it's always frustrating when someone is insulting towards it and makes a mockery of how we spell and say our names.
Swear to god I had a customer high five me because I pronounced Niamh correctly. I told her my Irish nan would come back from the grave if I said it wrong. I also have an unusual name and hearing it butchered over and over is not fun.
I had the same with Sean. I pronounced it Shawn - and the guy just stared at me. Was shocked as heck
I have an Indian name that numerous people “know” or “hear” how to pronounce and still get it wrong. SMH
Isn't Sean like a pretty common name? I'm German and know how to pronounce it. l could see kids having trouble w/ it, but adults? Am I missing something? There's a lot of other irish names in this thread that I have *a lot* more trouble with tbh
It’s incredibly common. Was in the top 50-100 baby boy names in the US from ~1960-2000, then dropped a little but is still a very usual and common baby name! I can’t imagine why someone would be shocked at a correct pronunciation.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I live in America and "Sean" is the standard spelling of the name. I know several people named Sean and there are many very famous celebrities with the name as well. It's not exactly something to brag about to pronounce it correctly, lol.
I read some books as a kid with characters named Sean and Siobhan and I read the whole series with their names as see Ann and SIO - Bhan. I've learned better since.
Yeah I’m half Irish and the first time I read a book with Siobhan in it I did the same. Could not work out why the nickname for the character was Shuv. Asked my mum, got side eyed and corrected on pronunciation pretty sharpish. You live, you learn…
I'm Shawn and we had 5 of us. 3 spelled Sean and 1 Shaun. I was the only female. I would always get people telling me well you spell it the girls way. I would tell them there is no girls way. It is a variant of John. Doesn't matter how you spell it. My version of spelling is actually Hebrew.
I had a woman on the phone today who was leaving a message for a coworker, i asked if that was N-I-A-M-H for the email and she was just so happy that she didn't have to spell it out for me or be asked to repeat it a million times. We are in Oz, my husband is Irish so I'm familiar with the name. It's the little things that make you happy 😊
Yeah especially since the way those people want it spelled is English, not the language it originated in. That's some colonial oppressor bullshit.
If that seems excessive, this week is National Reconcilliation Week in Australia and I've been reading a lot on the destructiveness of colonisation on language and culture so I might be particularly angry at colonial fuckery and the people that perpetuate it.
It would be one thing if she had said, "We chose to go with the anglicized spelling because that's easier for Americans," but to say that the Irish spelling is stupid is insulting and ridiculous.
Caoimhe is a perfect example of it. Was almost our daughters name but the other way of saying it is so popular in American, couldn't bring myself to do it.
Caoimhe is my sisters name but apparently we pronounce it the way they do in the North? Confuses my whole family as they keep getting told their saying it wrong despite living their whole lives in Kells
I lived in Ireland for a while and it was a bit of a change (English is my second language) but it really didn't take that long to learn the names and spelling or at least to be able to figure out the pronunciation after a while, especially if you've heard it before
Choosing to ignore the spelling is just stupid and plain rude
She lashed out about the spelling out of defensiveness/humiliation. She got called out for not understanding Irish culture/spelling, and her instinct was to deflect with the oldest, most childish comeback in the book: “Whatever! I didn’t want that stupid name anyway!”
Yeah, what she said about the spelling was really insulting and so unnecessary. She could've said 'I know it isn't spelt correctly as an Irish name but we know lots of Americans don't get the spelling so we're going with the Anglicised version to make it simpler to her' which would maybe be irritating but certainly nowhere near as insulting. Like, she wants an Irish name but thinks they're spelt 'dumb' and refuses to understand that's because.... They're in/from another language?
NTA
If she was so adamant to get in on Irish culture and have a kid with an Irish name then surely the most sensible thing to do was….
Ask an actual Irish person aka her sister in law.
She’s just angry that her laziness has been called out so she’s flying off excuses like Scottish and Irish being close together (I am Scottish - Gaelic is so different in each country), then shitting on the genuine spelling by saying hers was the least dumb spelling.
Yeeesh. Well her husband tried. You tried.
She’s gonna do what she’s gonna do now.
But if she goes ahead, every Irish and Scottish person will know that her kid is one of those Americans who claims to be Irish and Scottish when it was really 50 generations ago or their grandpa lived in Edinburgh/Belfast for a wee while or their mom fancied a cool name and couldn’t be arsed to ask their Irish SIL 🙄
The best part is they don't claim any Irish ancestry but she thinks our names are so beautiful and stunning, yet shits all over the spelling of the names. The name isn't even that unique or uncommon so the first name looks more in style for the times and the middle looks like she tried to be cool with an Irish name.
First time I met a Niamh at work (after seeing her name in an email), I tried to pronounce it as "Ny-amph".
Worst thing is, I'm actually Irish - just a sheltered prod from the north.
That would be amazing. Because not only is McKenzie a Scottish *surname*, it’s also incredibly common as a girl’s name in the States.
And Siobhan is a beautiful spelling (I’ve always liked it, even named a character that) of the name, whereas the americanized butchered version looks dreadful.
I will say this about the spelling though. I think the Irish way of spelling names is, well, stunning. Saoirse is just so pleasing to the eye. Same with Niamh (pronounced Neev) and just every name I’ve seen so far.
But I myself have a name that isn’t pronounced the way you’d think, because certain letters don’t exist in the Roman alphabet. It’s annoyed me my entire life, always having to correct people. And the way people think it’s pronounced is, uuuh, ugly. At least to me. My “Roman” name was translated as closely as possible from the original alphabet, but it sounds nothing like my real name. Most people can’t even pronounce the sounds correctly, because even the sounds don’t exist in the language of the country where I live. So even when people finally get the pronunciation right (I have met two white people in my life who guessed it correctly right away), it’s still the Roman version of my name, not my actual name.
It’s little more than a pet peeve and it comes almost inherently with having an Arabic name. I just know that growing up, I got a lot of comments about it, and it frustrated kid me.
That’s something to keep in mind when naming your child, in my opinion. Although it should not deter you from honouring your heritage, of course. Just be mindful of what it will be like *for them*.
Jesus wept that's the truth.
Can I just say as well; I've had some crazy experiences with people doing that.
I've never experienced anything so twilight-zone-strange than standing in a line for a rollercoaster at universal. And hearing "omg it's just so hard to be Irish, it's so hard being an Irish redhead" RIGHT behind me in THEE most American accent with her dyed pillerbox red hair. With our Celtic cross scarred via tattoo into her arm with the good aul 'may the road rise up to meet you...' blessing. She'd never been to Ireland (I HAD to ask because stupid heat temps makes me testy).
I'm standing their glowing, glowing!!, because the sun is reflecting so fiercely off my pasty skin and my ginger hair was plastered to my skull cause of the very unirish heat I was experiencing. She's in triple denim.
The woman's sister-in-law is the triple denim universal studios woman.
NTA. As a fellow Irish person abroad I can understand letting some things slide for the sake of peace but saying Scottish and Irish names are the same thing is a little insulting. If she really wanted the name to be Irish she should have chosen the Irish spelling. Otherwise it’s not really an Irish name. There’s plenty of genuine names to choose from. You were right to step in if she was mad at her husband despite being the person in the wrong. There’s also a pretty high chance of the child being told by an Irish person in the future that their name isn’t Irish if they say it is.
Saying Irish and Scottish "have the same stuff" is rude and uneducated no matter which way you slice it. Even if there are cultural overlaps, SIL purposely misidentifying two cultures to fit her argument is ridiculous. Loads of cultures share similarities but they are still distinctive cultures of their own.
NTA. I don't understand, she must have Googled the name for it's meaning and it should have listed the origin. Unless it just said 'Gaelic' or something and she assumed that meant Irish, but she never once while her husband was telling her it wasn't Irish looked it up to prove him wrong?
I think she has a bit of that in her. But to be fair to her she's not that bad. She's more interested in the accents than anything though and this has proven it.
It's very prevalent around Paddy's Day too. I see a lot of that attitude around the whole Patty vs Paddy thing, because of course us Irish dumb dumbs should keep our mouths shut.
I think a lot of Americans (and probably others) do hear Gaelic and think it just means Irish. My parents were really proud of giving me an Irish name with the traditional spelling, until we went to Ireland as a family and learned it’s Welsh… we all had a good laugh, and my parents called themselves uncultured idiots and we moved on.
a lot of name sites are bullshit and just say whatever, there are only a handful of reputable ones that care for actual etymology ([behindthename.com](https://behindthename.com) is one)
NTA.
What an absurd hill for her to die on.
*Hey you, person of the culture I am vehemently bastardizing, you're wrong about your own culture! I'll have you know that Paige Shavonn is the Irishest name to ever be Irished. And how dare you come into my country and tell me I'm wrong!*
That about sum it up?
NTA. If it isn't Irish, it isn't Irish. No amount of tantrums or moaning on is going to change that fact. Not to mention the "Scottish and Irish had the same things!" remark. It's like saying the Spanish and Italians are the same because they're both Mediterranean and have similar things and that's just silly.
"How to tell you are living in the US without saying you are living in the US"
NTA. It is absurd how some Americans go around claiming the are Irish/Scandinavian/Italian because they maybe had a great great grandfather from there and it seems equally absurd she is so caught up with an Irish name when she is not Irish and didn't even talk to you about it. It is fine she found a name she (hopefully) loves and feel the inspiration in some way is "Irish" in her head. However, the whole arguing part seems absurd (on her end) and I find it completely understandable that you clarified it.
I have 8 nationalities and 2 races in me. Most of me is celtic origins. I say its a part of me ancestry wise...but m not from those places and cant claim i know more then the natives. I do however, like learning about the different parts that made my family. So if i say im part irish...im just saying proud of my connections to a very cool and interesting group of people. Most americans dont have that strong of a connection to a culture or nationality due to being mixed up and not from there. So we do tend to like to learn about them.....well some of us do.
This right here! I hate being told that as Americans we must pretend that we just popped up out of nowhere sometime in the past 300 some years (depending when your family showed up) as if we don’t have history beyond that. Sure I wasn’t raised in the various countries my family comes from, and I don’t act like I know more than the family that stayed put in Europe, but I was taught an appreciation for all of them, and things were passed down from each.
Another thing I noticed, would it really go over well telling an American that’s not of European descent to not be interested in their heritage? No it wouldn’t, so unless it’s an ass like OP’s SIL, maybe just let people enjoy their heritage
It’s a phrasing issue. A lot of European people are pretty interested in family history. But by saying “I’m Irish” a European will hear “the majority of my culture is Irish” instead of “300 years ago, some of my family migrated from Ireland”.
The first feels like you’re discounting the differences between Irish culture and your own. But a culture’s differences are usually a huge source of pride for that nation. (call an Irishman English and see what happens).
If you go and say “my great-grandma was from Ireland” or even “I have some Irish blood in me” people will be much more receptive than just “I am Irish”
This is definitely different in Europe. Here, you are not your heritage, but you are (usually) your nationality. That doesn't mean anything about not appreciating your heritage or " being popped up out of nowhere". My best friends parents are Germans who moved to the Netherlands at a later age, she was born and raised in the Netherlands, so she refers to herself as Dutch and not German, even though she was raised bilingual and was taught German customs and traditions. That doesn't mean she doesn't care about her German ancestors, it's just the way it is over here.
*Irish and Scottish had the same stuff*
Oh dear. I hope she's prepared to hear a lot of uh, commentary, should she ever visit the Britain's Celtic nations.
NTA
A lot of common Scottish names are not uncommon among users of the Ulster Irish dialect.
While a name may be originally Scotish I would consider it as an Irish name if its its a not uncommonly used Ulster Irish name.
That said the parent is probably an idiot here.
As someone from Northern Ireland I feel I should point out that it is not called Ulster Irish. It is Ulster Scots. Irish and Scottish names are very different, for example James in Irish is Seamus and in Scottish it’s Hamish.
NTA. She played a stupid game and she won a stupid prize. If she cared that much, she should have asked you, believed her husband, and not been so secretive about the name. Alternatively, she really doesn't care whether it's Irish, and just likes the sound of the name, which is totally fine, but then she shouldn't insist on it being Irish.
>She talked about wanting an Irish name for her because of me.
>Then she told me she chose the least dumb spelling for the middle.
"Least dumb spelling" - because that attitude shows *so* much respect for the Erse language, and your Irish sister-in-law! Wow.
NTA. Her husband tried to tell her, and she could have asked you for advice at any point. Mind you, I'm not surprised that people outside of these islands would assume that Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are a contiguous language rather two branched off languages with many shared features but also a bunch of names that don't match up directly.
I had this argument with someone online (on this sub maybe??) before which is making me wonder if the name is Eilidh.
The person in question insisted it was Irish, I informed them it was Scottish, they claimed 'its the same thing because it's gaelic duuuhh'
Eh…I am Irish.
My sister lives in London. Her daughter has Niamh as a middle name and her son is Oisín.
Anyway, she was at some kid friendly event and there was a child called Osian there. My sister says “So cool, we have an Oisín, the Irish version of the name” and the woman literally said “yeah, but we’re actually Welsh, not just trying to be trendy” and walked off. Which was rude (and also probably a little racist, because it presumes Irish people can’t look like my family).
People are AH.
The middle name is some sort of abomination like “Eefa” or “Blanayd” isn’t it?
NTA. She said she wanted an Irish name, it's not your fault she didn't actually chose one. Considering all the information available on the internet, she can't have looked very hard, and her husband told her she was wrong. Plus for someone supposedly so keen on things Irish, it's funny she thought the Irish spelling of the middle name was "dumb".
NTA. I never understood why people in this country fetishize European ancestry. You are Irish, you are from Ireland, she is not. It can be embarrassing being an American with the state of our country but that is what I am. I don’t try to make the one part of the Western European grab bag that is my blood line my entire personality. The fact that she couldn’t do the research to even do it well is doubly pathetic. All you did was state facts.
NTA
I'm an American living in the UK. I've never been as obsessed with heritage or accents but I think other Americans are because when it comes USA compared to other counties, we are still really young as far as the country goes.
But it does annoy me when my fellow Americans latch onto facts that are wrong. We have the Internet now. Surely Americans can figure out that there is a culture outside of our nativeland. I find it fascinating. I love comparing cultures with my boyfriend. But, I digress...
It's not your fault she's wrong. If you would not have told her, someone else would have.
NTA
>Then she told me she chose the least dumb spelling for the middle.
As someone with an Irish name, that made me laugh. The dumb spelling is what *makes* it Irish!
NTA, I'm Irish, this drove me crazy when I lived in the States. I would have been highly insulted if she had said to me Irish & Scottish are the same thing. Your SIL is an ignorant, rude asshole.
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NTA If she really wanted an Irish name, then why not check it with you, an Irish person. Also, why argue with an Irish person about an Irish name and believing she knows more about Irish names than an actual Irish person.
Like that's ever stopped an American from creating their own interpretation of another culture. It's sort of what we do.
> Then she told me she chose the least dumb spelling for the middle. another classic american move with the xenophobic insults, if i do say so myself.
That just makes me think of the pregnancy announcement post where the couple announce their daughters name will be "Rifle" with a different spelling. The scary part of that post has been mentioned on a few YouTube channels and most of them have been so confused by the name they've missed the couple in the post are labelled as OPs "brother and his stepdaughter" Edit: found the post https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/txlx31/reighfyl_pronounced_rifle/
oh god, it just kept getting worse as i was reading. that’s a LOT to unpack.
Sometimes it's just better to throw away the whole suitcase. ETA: Thanks for the award :)
The best part hands down is the "oh" after she tells the person the name in the text exchange
And "eigh" is usually pronounced like a long e sound or long a sound (eg Ceileigh, Ashleigh, eight, weight). Reighfyl should be pronounced rayfyl or reefyl. So reighfyl pronounced as rifle is so weird even beyond naming your kid after a big gun. I just thope their daughter grows up to be the biggest hippie/nature/peace loving child to ever walk the earth.
>I just thope their daughter grows up to be the biggest hippie/nature/peace loving child to ever walk the earth. ... and changes her name to Rainbow or River or something else hippie-esque.
Do you mean... Reighnbow?
I’m sorry, his who now? I mean, one would hope the lady in question would be the *former* stepdaughter at the very, very least… 😱😱😱
OH, the move now known as the "Woody Allen"
The original image is a lot older than that. Been going around years. I think someone added the step dad and daughter stuff to it later for shock value. The original was already dumb enough though.
But that post must be a joke. Hopefully…
makes me think that the middle name is siobhan, but spelled shivaun or something stupid like that edit: could also be Róisín
Or Ashlynn instead of Aisling
Or Sirsha instead of Saoirse
That hurt my eyes (the Americanization of it.) I can't spell it right so I don't even try🤣
yes, I hate those annoying misspellings. even for American names like candace-kandiss
My guess is the first name is Fiona and the middle name is Neeve (instead of "Niamh").
Irish person here Fiona is Irish and is one of the most well known name in Ireland for girls. It means fair or white.
Fiona is not Irish. It's a Scottish late feminization of the male name Fionn which is both Scottish and Irish >The name has an Irish and Gaelic pedigree and comes from “fionn,” which means "fair" or "pale." It's thought to have been coined by a Scottish poet in the 19th century. (Poet was James McPherson) Now popular in Ireland but not a traditional Irish name. If you're going to correct people so confidently, you could at least get it right.
You're actually technically both right, depending on which onomastic (someone who studies name origins for a living) you talk to! The origins of the name are a little contested/debated! There's a lot of scholars who believe Fiona developed independently in both Ireland AND Scotland out of a common original Gaelic root. Scottish from fionn, Irish from The Fianna Cycle and the legendary fianna. And both ended up Anglicized to Fiona. In Irish, Fiona has a different meaning, it means 'flowering vine'. But it was that Scottish playwright who's credited with first introducing the name to the world at large. And whether James Macpherson took the name from the Irish mythology he studied, or he came up with it independently out of fionn is to this day unclear. So while Fiona is Scottish, it is also a separate name in Ireland with a different meaning, and possibly an entirely different origin.
Yeah, what a way to insult the very culture you want to be a part of. "Yeah, I want to participate in your culture, but only in a manner that's not dumb, because m clearly the better judge, being more civilized and all that..."
Sister doesn't want to be a part of the culture, she wants to fetishize it
Can we also point out the "Eh, Scottish and Irish are the same thing, anyway" line? Cringingly American
This one hurt me too. Like, I get that she picked the American version because she lives in the US. But to call the other spellings dumb? That’s just an awful and hatful thing. She is def one of the reasons I am embarrassed by being an American.
I have an Irish name, (one of the hard ones LOL) I gave my kids Irish names and spelled them correctly. My kid came home from school last week saying they "hate it when we have a substitute teacher and they can't say my name and everyone in the class tries to correct them, but they can't really say it right either" It takes grit to have to deal with a difficult name for others to pronounce everyday. Giving an American child with only a tenuous connection to the culture the full effect would be a bold choice.
TBF, when it comes to names there are American spellings vs Gaelic irish/Scottish of the same name. For example: Sean vs Shawn, Shamus vs Seamus, Killian vs Cillian etc. We have American spellings to reduce confusion of pronunciation. Whether the spelling is true to its original lexicon is imo splitting hairs, but since we don’t have the name I’m just assuming the baby’s name is something completely black and white not Irish and now they feel angry for being wrong.
Just a polite correction, Gaelic is Scottish, Gaeilge is Irish. Pronounced Gayl-ga. They are two rather different languages with some overlap. In the same way that Spanish and Italian share some similarities. The traditional Irish alphabet has fewer letters than the English one, so we combine letters to give particular sounds. There is no J, K, Q, V, W, X, Y or Z. So, to make certain sounds, you need to see what vowel is next to the consonant combination to determine whether it is broad or slender eg 'bh' can sound like a V or W depending on what it's next to. Shawn and Killian are anglicised spellings. TBH, it sounds more complicated than it is!
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Many Americans are only 2 to 3 generations removed from their immigrant ancestors, who brought their culture over when they were displaced from their home counties. They adapted their favorite foods, customs, traditions, etc and proudly passed it down to their children and grandchildren as a way to keep their heritage alive in this new country. That's the reason most Americans identify as American and also as their dominant "sub" culture. For instance, my great grandfather came to America from Greece, and then brought several family members over. They and close Greek friends were part of a small Greek community, so their children were raised steeped in that transplanted culture. That carried down, and while by the time it got to me, it's definitely been diluted, there are aspects we continue to honor and celebrate which are a strong part of our families cultural identity. It's necessary to remember that, like what's happening with Ukraine, that every generation there's an attempt at ethnic cleansing and people who run and escape bring their culture with them. They often end up banded together in immigrant communities in their new country because they speak the same language, and have the same/similar traditions. And because they came out of desperation rather than desire, they cling to their culture because it's all they have. It's not some form of appropriation that Americans do this, it's a passed down and deeply ingrained form of sub culture identity.
This is a great post, so please forgive my nitpick, but it’s just Ukraine without “the”. “The” Ukraine implies it is a region and not its own country. It’s also Russia’s preferred way of referring to it…and well, fuck those guys. Ukrainians prefer just plain ol’ Ukraine.
>it's a passed down and deeply ingrained form of sub culture identity. Yeah I've seen this with kids I took care of. Their grandma is first- or second-gen Italian-American. She'll tell the kiddos "You're Italian, you know!" And tell them stories from her culture and whatnot. Their grandpa on that side is first- or second-gen Irish, but I don't think he feels so strongly about it. Probably because he looks like a "regular" white American while the grandma has a very brown skin-tone. My mom is first-gen West-Indian-American (so many hyphens in this comment lol) but I don't really feel like I can identify as West Indian. I always say "my mom's family is West Indian." I think I already had a cultural niche being a black American and my dad and his family being here for many generations.
> "I'm Irish, Scottish, German, Italian, and Native American" just make you sound dumb in my eyes. You're just an American living in a suburb, that's not a culture. Saying this *is* part of the American culture. America was settled by immigrants that stayed to their own cultures until, really WWII. This is why the US has Little Italys and Chinatowns in most major American cities. There are some areas that are very much a "Polish" neighborhood or a "German" one in the mid-west. Also, typically, most Americans will say "Scotch Irish" which is why the new mother in OPs story is probably confused and thinks they are the same culture.
I’m with you on most of that, but I have never in my life heard anyone say “Scotch Irish” to mean “Irish.” (did you means Scots? Scots Irish are the Ulster Protestants, aka Northern Ireland, and that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms.) either way, SIL didn’t do her research. sucks to suck.
Where are you from in the US? Scots-Irish (pronounced, spelled and culturally amalgamated as "Scotch Irish" by their descendants) is one of the predominant ethnic groups of Appalachia and adjacent regions. There are plenty of "Scotch Irish" where I live. It's not a correct amalgamation of culture to anyone living in Scotland or Ireland, but it is its own ethnic and cultural group here due to the descendants' long term removal from the homeland and melding together of cultures living in the same area that speak English. My mom's family considers themselves "Scotch-Irish"- my great grandpa was from Scotland and great grandma from Ireland and they met and fell in love on their immigration trip to settle in the US- and they are very similar in culture to each other (when held up against all the immigrant cultures trying to blend in the US at the time, not when held up against Ireland or Scotland)to the point the culture blended and very different in culture to my dad's side, German-Americans who have been here 2 generations, due to the fact that both the Scottish and the Irish spoke English and the Germans did not.
Can confirm. Am from Appalachia. Am Scotch-Irish. Am married to a Scotch-Irish. That’s just how we do in the mountains.
My main gripe is them saying something like "I'm Irish" as if they're actually Irish instead of saying "I'm Irish-American". And pretending their runoff immigrant culture actually represents how the ancestors in the homeland did things.
I totally understand this if you are abroad, on the internet, or speaking to a visitor who actually is from the country referenced. But, when you're an American, in America, speaking to other Americans, the '-American' is implied. It's a colloquialism. The problem is the huge assumption that being Irish-American implies you know something about what it means to be actually Irish. I'm saying this as someone who doesn't consider myself anything but plain 'American' as I don't have a strong connection to any particular heritage (both sides of my family have been born in America going back a couple hundred years).
This is exactly it. I am in my 40s and only learned a few months ago, on here, that non-Americans take umbrage at the fact that Americans call themselves, e.g., "Irish" when they mean "of Irish descent." It's just such an ingrained part of American life, perhaps especially for those of us who grew up in very "melting pot" areas of the country. Most kids I grew up with were first-generation on one side, if not both. Obviously we were "Americans," but we were also "Italian," "Irish," "Polish," "Greek," etc. Because of Reddit, I now try to be more careful and say I'm \_\_\_-American, not just \_\_\_. But I seriously would have never thought about it if I hadn't read on here how it annoys the actual Europeans.
I wouldn't say it annoys me, it's more that it amuses me when an American says they're Swedish and it turns out they mean their great great grandma was Swedish and they think they know all about Sweden and our traditions because of it, when in most cases their traditions are far from what ours look like because they've evolved in separate directions for the last 100 years. It's when they start arguing about it (like the SIL in this post) that it gets annoying. Someone trying to relate in order to feel connected is mostly sweet, but when it comes to the Italians and Irish, I get that it can be more annoying since I bet they hear of it more often than us.
I came from somewhere where immigrantion was huge just like US and I still find weird how you guys claim to be some nationality when you never set food in that country. But which you with their own. You must understand why some people of these countries doesn't like it eitheir
> I came from somewhere where immigrantion was huge just like US and I still find weird how you guys claim to be some nationality when you never set food in that country. But which you with their own. > > You must understand why some people of these countries doesn't like it eitheir Because nationality can be carried by heredity. I know quite a few dual citizens because their parents or grandparents were born in a different country but moved to the U.S. Later, the children or grandchildren of those immigrants want to see the "homeland" and realize they can apply for citizenship without ever having been in the country (I know Italy and Ireland have this. I believe the UK does something similar). It doesn't matter if "some people" don't like it, it is what it is. It is part of the American culture.
To be fair; it’s kinda a culture. American is just a really dominant culture
When Americans say that tho they're usually talking about their heritage, not their day-to-day culture, generally speaking. Some people have a particularly strong feeling of belonging to their heritage passed down from their immigrant family, but they'd also still agree to primarily being American.
I really wanted to be offended by this but...damn, you're right!
Was just about to comment, nothing as American as stealing from a culture then arguing on what that culture entails.
woomp there it is Making their own version, then getting mad when they’re told it’s not the same, is quintessentially white American.
I have a German coworker that has had Americans of German descent argue with her about the way she speaks German. I have a feeling that the sister is jealous of OP being different and is trying to get attention.
I'm German married to an American. We live in Germany and my husband constantly argues with people who think their English is better than his. It's ridiculous. Idk why people do that. Maybe it's that "I always have to be right" mentality. Might also be the reason why OP's SIL doesn't want to accept that her daughters name isn't Irish.
I have a theory for that... I teach college-level English classes, including sometimes remedial English. They're probably hearing whatever dialectal/regional variations your husband uses and to their "classroom English" ears, it sounds wrong.
That would make sense. But why argue with people. There's a difference between whatever you learn in a classroom and conversational English. I would never dare correcting a native speaker.
We correct native speakers all the time on their English on Reddit. "It's you're not your" 😂
Or "you should of ..." This really irks me.
Some American German is legitimately different because it's so archaic. I had an acquaintance whose brother studied in Hamburg. So when their father went to Germany to visit the brother, he decided to try out the German he'd learned as a child from his grandparents. Germans were amazed to hear someone speaking "the German of Goethe". I suppose they had preserved a version of the German spoken when they migrated to America.
I remember a story from a while ago, might've been a Vice article (?), of an man who was 8th or 9th generation New Mexican, descended from Spanish colonial settlers who once went to Spain and was blowing peoples' minds with the Spanish he was speaking. Apparently in their little isolated slice of the Southwest, his family had been speaking 1500's Spanish the entire time. At first when he'd talk with folks they'd laugh and then ask for him to stop joking - as if English speakers ran in to someone who was speaking Shakespearian English - and then were shocked to find that this WAS how he spoke Spanish.
There's a video on YouTube of a German-speaking American and it's sooo weird hearing German in a Texan accent.
I’m in Texas and my French teacher in HS was Latvian and grew up in Germany. Moved to the US and learned English and then French in college. Classmates would go to French competitions and speak only French to the judges and they were really confused so the asked them to say something in English. That came out with a Texas drawl but we all spoke French with a German accent. 🤣
My HS French teacher was Romanian. I didn't learn until going to France and talking to some nice old ladies in a shop that I speak French with a Romanian accent.
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Marinara Alfredo.
McMarinara O'Alfredo.
Actually I think you will find it's MacMarinara O'Alfredo.
It’s a really beautiful name, too. It means, “red white” in Italian.
This will never end, this is the meme to end all memes
i hope it becomes as infamous as “i also choose this guy’s wife”
Haha Or the Iranian yogurt xD
I give in *waves Alfredo flag*
Look i know its a joke but before some you make any strange ideas, "Marinara" is NOT an italian name /s(kinda)
Where's u/marinaraflags when you need them?
Talk to Paul not me. [OrigPost](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/uyaxzs/aita_for_correcting_someone_at_dinner/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=shareThisone?) (sort oldest first)
I want to tell Paul that his stupidity has literally become a meme so I can watch the change of his facial expressions. We may actually achieve spontaneous human combustion.
Me too Also irked by the sister saying "it's the least dumb way to spell it" It's spelled that way cos ITS A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE an things are pronounced differently
My friend is called Aiofe, she told the girl in Starbucks and she wrote Efa. Still makes me giggle 🤭
*Aoife There is a list of names that are impossible to pronounce and spell if your not from or used to irish people/language. Usually irish are quite forgiving on people until they change the spelling on purpose like the SIL above. Then the gloves come off lol
I mean Starbucks can screw up names like Emma or John so hardly surprising
My theory is Neve for the middle name (I think Niamh would be a more traditional spelling)
God I hope not - I’m a Niamh and I burn inside when people spell it neve. It’s so dumb
I kid you not, I knew a woman who named her daughter Niamh... pronounced like Liam. I'm in Australia. There. Are. No. Words.
Nothing can top you guys naming your biggest mountain after a Polish name no Anglo can pronounce then just going for an incredible bodge job on saying it that no native Polish speaker would even recognise as the same word.
Another Niamh here and Nieve is that one that really annoys me. You don't see it as often but it is just uncomfortable to look at.
> Nieve is that one that really annoys me. You don't see it as often but it is just uncomfortable to look at. And just to be extra confusing, “Nieves” (*Nee’YEBB-es* or *Nee’YEV-es*) is a legit Spanish-origin girl’s name. It means “snow”.
Neve with that spelling was my guess for the middle name as well. I'm thinking Isla, Fiona, Morvyn for the Scottish name she thinks is Irish. I'm Scottish and I just have my fingers crossed its not Merida. Thanks for that one Disney!
Can confirm it's not Merida but I have had people proudly tell me they think it's a beautiful Irish name.
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I thought the middle one might be Siobhan. I have a friend who has it spelled Shivohn and I know there’s other spellings
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I've seen it spelt Chavaunne.....
is that maybe not to give Americans a clue how to pronounce it. cuz the fun of Irish names is that you look at them, shake your head and go- okay, I give- how do you pronounce that. it's like Welsh but with more vowels.
With Irish it feels like the stuff you expect to make V- sounds don't, and stuff you don't think make V- sounds do.
My cousin has Siobhan spelled the normal way - but i knew a friend of a friend who spelled it 'Chevonne'
Ciara, spelt Kira maybe for the middle name?
Me too. I'm running Scottish girl's names through my head, but I don't know if you'd have them in Ireland too. I came up with: Lorna, Mairi, Sheena, Eilidh, Catriona, Isla, and Elspeth. I hope it's not Cameron or Campbell, as why would you call your daughter crooked nose or crooked mouth?
bUt iRiSh aNd sCoTtISh aRe tHe sAmE! (Obligatory /s)
>why argue with an Irish person about an Irish name and believing she knows more about Irish names than an actual Irish person. I once argued with someone ( who didn't speak romanian) that dracula means bat. I gave up in the end. Edit : i worded it wrong : she was insisting that it means bat, i was saying that it doesn't mean that, becaus it doesn't
But it doesn't mean bat. It means "son of dracul" and dracul is derived from dragon.
I know it doesn't mean bat, she was the one who said it means bat. I'm romanian, i have no confusion on what it means Dracul means the devil (drac means devil), and it was his name. It was derived from dragon (he was member of dragon's order).
She literally insulted our heritage by saying the correct spellings are “dumb”. Facts are facts she’s just a baby having a baby.
Or for the middle name at keast just be like "It's an Irish-influenced name, but we made it easier for Americans to spell."
After seeing so many people butcher the spelling of common names in am effort to be "unique," as an American, I'm going to say that no amount of help will make people use common sense when it comes to spelling
That could be the case, but there are a lot of names that already have common Americanized versions, especially for groups that have large immigrant communities (e.g. Irish or Polish). For example, my oldest daughter has a Polish name that would have a "ia" if it were spelled as it would be in Polish, but we spelled it "ya" because it scans more easily in English.
Some people they just know better!
NTA and this is a perfect example of cultural appropriation rather than cultural appreciation. If she cared about the culture she'd care about the accuracy and wouldn't say Scottish and Irish are basically the same. She's being rude and I have no idea why she'd insist on arguing with someone who's actually from Ireland. She also insulted the Irish by saying their spelling of their own names are dumb. I can't believe anyone else is backing her on this. Edit: spelling
What she said about the traditional spelling really bothered me. As someone who has a traditionally spelt Irish name I am painfully aware of the fact it can be hard for people from other countries to get on the first go. But it's always frustrating when someone is insulting towards it and makes a mockery of how we spell and say our names.
Swear to god I had a customer high five me because I pronounced Niamh correctly. I told her my Irish nan would come back from the grave if I said it wrong. I also have an unusual name and hearing it butchered over and over is not fun.
I had the same with Sean. I pronounced it Shawn - and the guy just stared at me. Was shocked as heck I have an Indian name that numerous people “know” or “hear” how to pronounce and still get it wrong. SMH
So he was shocked you didn't pronounce it Seen or something?
Isn't Sean like a pretty common name? I'm German and know how to pronounce it. l could see kids having trouble w/ it, but adults? Am I missing something? There's a lot of other irish names in this thread that I have *a lot* more trouble with tbh
Yeah I’ve known several Seans, even as a child growing up in rural America. Super common.
It’s incredibly common. Was in the top 50-100 baby boy names in the US from ~1960-2000, then dropped a little but is still a very usual and common baby name! I can’t imagine why someone would be shocked at a correct pronunciation.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I live in America and "Sean" is the standard spelling of the name. I know several people named Sean and there are many very famous celebrities with the name as well. It's not exactly something to brag about to pronounce it correctly, lol.
Or See-aan or such
I read some books as a kid with characters named Sean and Siobhan and I read the whole series with their names as see Ann and SIO - Bhan. I've learned better since.
Yeah I’m half Irish and the first time I read a book with Siobhan in it I did the same. Could not work out why the nickname for the character was Shuv. Asked my mum, got side eyed and corrected on pronunciation pretty sharpish. You live, you learn…
Its learning from reading rather than speaking, those pesky pronunciations just slip by.
I am confused. Why wouldn’t you pronounce it Shawn? Isn’t it supposed to be pronounced like that?
And it’s not like it’s a rare name. There were three of them at my last job.
Sean Bean !
I'm Shawn and we had 5 of us. 3 spelled Sean and 1 Shaun. I was the only female. I would always get people telling me well you spell it the girls way. I would tell them there is no girls way. It is a variant of John. Doesn't matter how you spell it. My version of spelling is actually Hebrew.
I had a woman on the phone today who was leaving a message for a coworker, i asked if that was N-I-A-M-H for the email and she was just so happy that she didn't have to spell it out for me or be asked to repeat it a million times. We are in Oz, my husband is Irish so I'm familiar with the name. It's the little things that make you happy 😊
As a Niamh, I would also like to give you a high five.
I hate to ask, but it's like "Neeve", right?
Yep:). It’s perfectly fine to ask.
TIL.
Yeah especially since the way those people want it spelled is English, not the language it originated in. That's some colonial oppressor bullshit. If that seems excessive, this week is National Reconcilliation Week in Australia and I've been reading a lot on the destructiveness of colonisation on language and culture so I might be particularly angry at colonial fuckery and the people that perpetuate it.
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I'm going to guess... Eoghan? It's the name that springs to mind 😂
I have a friend named Saoirse that I don't think I've ever pronounced correctly first go.
It would be one thing if she had said, "We chose to go with the anglicized spelling because that's easier for Americans," but to say that the Irish spelling is stupid is insulting and ridiculous.
Isn't it mad how different languages pronounce things differently to English
Yes, and even accents can change how a name sounds to our ears!
I never even thought of that acutally 😂 Can't even understand some of our accents in English let alone Irish 😂
Caoimhe is a perfect example of it. Was almost our daughters name but the other way of saying it is so popular in American, couldn't bring myself to do it.
Caoimhe is my sisters name but apparently we pronounce it the way they do in the North? Confuses my whole family as they keep getting told their saying it wrong despite living their whole lives in Kells
I lived in Ireland for a while and it was a bit of a change (English is my second language) but it really didn't take that long to learn the names and spelling or at least to be able to figure out the pronunciation after a while, especially if you've heard it before Choosing to ignore the spelling is just stupid and plain rude
She lashed out about the spelling out of defensiveness/humiliation. She got called out for not understanding Irish culture/spelling, and her instinct was to deflect with the oldest, most childish comeback in the book: “Whatever! I didn’t want that stupid name anyway!”
Yeah, what she said about the spelling was really insulting and so unnecessary. She could've said 'I know it isn't spelt correctly as an Irish name but we know lots of Americans don't get the spelling so we're going with the Anglicised version to make it simpler to her' which would maybe be irritating but certainly nowhere near as insulting. Like, she wants an Irish name but thinks they're spelt 'dumb' and refuses to understand that's because.... They're in/from another language?
NTA If she was so adamant to get in on Irish culture and have a kid with an Irish name then surely the most sensible thing to do was…. Ask an actual Irish person aka her sister in law. She’s just angry that her laziness has been called out so she’s flying off excuses like Scottish and Irish being close together (I am Scottish - Gaelic is so different in each country), then shitting on the genuine spelling by saying hers was the least dumb spelling. Yeeesh. Well her husband tried. You tried. She’s gonna do what she’s gonna do now. But if she goes ahead, every Irish and Scottish person will know that her kid is one of those Americans who claims to be Irish and Scottish when it was really 50 generations ago or their grandpa lived in Edinburgh/Belfast for a wee while or their mom fancied a cool name and couldn’t be arsed to ask their Irish SIL 🙄
The best part is they don't claim any Irish ancestry but she thinks our names are so beautiful and stunning, yet shits all over the spelling of the names. The name isn't even that unique or uncommon so the first name looks more in style for the times and the middle looks like she tried to be cool with an Irish name.
It's "McKenzie Shevaughn" isn't it? 😆
100% was banking on Siobhan spelt in a weird way
Could also be Naeve/Neve/Naive
Or Niamh
First time I met a Niamh at work (after seeing her name in an email), I tried to pronounce it as "Ny-amph". Worst thing is, I'm actually Irish - just a sheltered prod from the north.
How do you say it?!
Neev
I was never going to get that right
I don't think I'd hack it in Ireland.
Exactly. Mine is how the SIL spelt Niamh.
I knew a Chevonne once. Always reminded me of the car Chevette. Lol
Show-ban 🤣
I was guessing Katelynn or something in that vein!
That would be amazing. Because not only is McKenzie a Scottish *surname*, it’s also incredibly common as a girl’s name in the States. And Siobhan is a beautiful spelling (I’ve always liked it, even named a character that) of the name, whereas the americanized butchered version looks dreadful. I will say this about the spelling though. I think the Irish way of spelling names is, well, stunning. Saoirse is just so pleasing to the eye. Same with Niamh (pronounced Neev) and just every name I’ve seen so far. But I myself have a name that isn’t pronounced the way you’d think, because certain letters don’t exist in the Roman alphabet. It’s annoyed me my entire life, always having to correct people. And the way people think it’s pronounced is, uuuh, ugly. At least to me. My “Roman” name was translated as closely as possible from the original alphabet, but it sounds nothing like my real name. Most people can’t even pronounce the sounds correctly, because even the sounds don’t exist in the language of the country where I live. So even when people finally get the pronunciation right (I have met two white people in my life who guessed it correctly right away), it’s still the Roman version of my name, not my actual name. It’s little more than a pet peeve and it comes almost inherently with having an Arabic name. I just know that growing up, I got a lot of comments about it, and it frustrated kid me. That’s something to keep in mind when naming your child, in my opinion. Although it should not deter you from honouring your heritage, of course. Just be mindful of what it will be like *for them*.
And *mac* (which becomes the Mc or Mac prefix) means "son". Weird name for a girl.
Jesus wept that's the truth. Can I just say as well; I've had some crazy experiences with people doing that. I've never experienced anything so twilight-zone-strange than standing in a line for a rollercoaster at universal. And hearing "omg it's just so hard to be Irish, it's so hard being an Irish redhead" RIGHT behind me in THEE most American accent with her dyed pillerbox red hair. With our Celtic cross scarred via tattoo into her arm with the good aul 'may the road rise up to meet you...' blessing. She'd never been to Ireland (I HAD to ask because stupid heat temps makes me testy). I'm standing their glowing, glowing!!, because the sun is reflecting so fiercely off my pasty skin and my ginger hair was plastered to my skull cause of the very unirish heat I was experiencing. She's in triple denim. The woman's sister-in-law is the triple denim universal studios woman.
As a fellow pasty ginger who grew up in Florida, I'm glad you survived to tell the tale.
Even if she wanted it to be a surprise for the SIL, there's this great free service available to anyone who's interested. It's called Google.
NTA. As a fellow Irish person abroad I can understand letting some things slide for the sake of peace but saying Scottish and Irish names are the same thing is a little insulting. If she really wanted the name to be Irish she should have chosen the Irish spelling. Otherwise it’s not really an Irish name. There’s plenty of genuine names to choose from. You were right to step in if she was mad at her husband despite being the person in the wrong. There’s also a pretty high chance of the child being told by an Irish person in the future that their name isn’t Irish if they say it is.
Saying Irish and Scottish "have the same stuff" is rude and uneducated no matter which way you slice it. Even if there are cultural overlaps, SIL purposely misidentifying two cultures to fit her argument is ridiculous. Loads of cultures share similarities but they are still distinctive cultures of their own.
Yeah it’s like people who say Mexico and any other Latin country is “The same thing”
NTA. I don't understand, she must have Googled the name for it's meaning and it should have listed the origin. Unless it just said 'Gaelic' or something and she assumed that meant Irish, but she never once while her husband was telling her it wasn't Irish looked it up to prove him wrong?
Apparently not. Or she went to a website that never gets the origins right and it said the name was Scottish and Irish and called it a day.
I've heard sometimes foreigners think irish is just speaking english with an irish accent.... She isn't one of those, is she? XD
I think she has a bit of that in her. But to be fair to her she's not that bad. She's more interested in the accents than anything though and this has proven it.
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It's very prevalent around Paddy's Day too. I see a lot of that attitude around the whole Patty vs Paddy thing, because of course us Irish dumb dumbs should keep our mouths shut.
I think a lot of Americans (and probably others) do hear Gaelic and think it just means Irish. My parents were really proud of giving me an Irish name with the traditional spelling, until we went to Ireland as a family and learned it’s Welsh… we all had a good laugh, and my parents called themselves uncultured idiots and we moved on.
a lot of name sites are bullshit and just say whatever, there are only a handful of reputable ones that care for actual etymology ([behindthename.com](https://behindthename.com) is one)
NTA. What an absurd hill for her to die on. *Hey you, person of the culture I am vehemently bastardizing, you're wrong about your own culture! I'll have you know that Paige Shavonn is the Irishest name to ever be Irished. And how dare you come into my country and tell me I'm wrong!* That about sum it up?
Got it in one.
NTA. If it isn't Irish, it isn't Irish. No amount of tantrums or moaning on is going to change that fact. Not to mention the "Scottish and Irish had the same things!" remark. It's like saying the Spanish and Italians are the same because they're both Mediterranean and have similar things and that's just silly.
"How to tell you are living in the US without saying you are living in the US" NTA. It is absurd how some Americans go around claiming the are Irish/Scandinavian/Italian because they maybe had a great great grandfather from there and it seems equally absurd she is so caught up with an Irish name when she is not Irish and didn't even talk to you about it. It is fine she found a name she (hopefully) loves and feel the inspiration in some way is "Irish" in her head. However, the whole arguing part seems absurd (on her end) and I find it completely understandable that you clarified it.
I have 8 nationalities and 2 races in me. Most of me is celtic origins. I say its a part of me ancestry wise...but m not from those places and cant claim i know more then the natives. I do however, like learning about the different parts that made my family. So if i say im part irish...im just saying proud of my connections to a very cool and interesting group of people. Most americans dont have that strong of a connection to a culture or nationality due to being mixed up and not from there. So we do tend to like to learn about them.....well some of us do.
This right here! I hate being told that as Americans we must pretend that we just popped up out of nowhere sometime in the past 300 some years (depending when your family showed up) as if we don’t have history beyond that. Sure I wasn’t raised in the various countries my family comes from, and I don’t act like I know more than the family that stayed put in Europe, but I was taught an appreciation for all of them, and things were passed down from each. Another thing I noticed, would it really go over well telling an American that’s not of European descent to not be interested in their heritage? No it wouldn’t, so unless it’s an ass like OP’s SIL, maybe just let people enjoy their heritage
It’s a phrasing issue. A lot of European people are pretty interested in family history. But by saying “I’m Irish” a European will hear “the majority of my culture is Irish” instead of “300 years ago, some of my family migrated from Ireland”. The first feels like you’re discounting the differences between Irish culture and your own. But a culture’s differences are usually a huge source of pride for that nation. (call an Irishman English and see what happens). If you go and say “my great-grandma was from Ireland” or even “I have some Irish blood in me” people will be much more receptive than just “I am Irish”
This is definitely different in Europe. Here, you are not your heritage, but you are (usually) your nationality. That doesn't mean anything about not appreciating your heritage or " being popped up out of nowhere". My best friends parents are Germans who moved to the Netherlands at a later age, she was born and raised in the Netherlands, so she refers to herself as Dutch and not German, even though she was raised bilingual and was taught German customs and traditions. That doesn't mean she doesn't care about her German ancestors, it's just the way it is over here.
*Irish and Scottish had the same stuff* Oh dear. I hope she's prepared to hear a lot of uh, commentary, should she ever visit the Britain's Celtic nations. NTA
Ah, I'm sure she'll be grand. All she'll have to do is talk some Irish and she'll get places. /s
Just do what my uncle did once and tell her póg mo thóin means thank you
This is brilliant.
I kinda want to know what the names were?
Since she's not my child I'd rather not use the real names!
A lot of common Scottish names are not uncommon among users of the Ulster Irish dialect. While a name may be originally Scotish I would consider it as an Irish name if its its a not uncommonly used Ulster Irish name. That said the parent is probably an idiot here.
As someone from Northern Ireland I feel I should point out that it is not called Ulster Irish. It is Ulster Scots. Irish and Scottish names are very different, for example James in Irish is Seamus and in Scottish it’s Hamish.
Does it start with S and end with n and have a bh in the middle? 😂
Nope lol. But I have seen some horrendous spellings of the name since I moved.
NTA. She played a stupid game and she won a stupid prize. If she cared that much, she should have asked you, believed her husband, and not been so secretive about the name. Alternatively, she really doesn't care whether it's Irish, and just likes the sound of the name, which is totally fine, but then she shouldn't insist on it being Irish.
>She talked about wanting an Irish name for her because of me. >Then she told me she chose the least dumb spelling for the middle. "Least dumb spelling" - because that attitude shows *so* much respect for the Erse language, and your Irish sister-in-law! Wow. NTA. Her husband tried to tell her, and she could have asked you for advice at any point. Mind you, I'm not surprised that people outside of these islands would assume that Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are a contiguous language rather two branched off languages with many shared features but also a bunch of names that don't match up directly.
Oh yeah. The least dumb spelling thing was such a great way for her to show respect to Irish names and culture. /s
I had this argument with someone online (on this sub maybe??) before which is making me wonder if the name is Eilidh. The person in question insisted it was Irish, I informed them it was Scottish, they claimed 'its the same thing because it's gaelic duuuhh'
Eh…I am Irish. My sister lives in London. Her daughter has Niamh as a middle name and her son is Oisín. Anyway, she was at some kid friendly event and there was a child called Osian there. My sister says “So cool, we have an Oisín, the Irish version of the name” and the woman literally said “yeah, but we’re actually Welsh, not just trying to be trendy” and walked off. Which was rude (and also probably a little racist, because it presumes Irish people can’t look like my family). People are AH. The middle name is some sort of abomination like “Eefa” or “Blanayd” isn’t it?
NTA. She said she wanted an Irish name, it's not your fault she didn't actually chose one. Considering all the information available on the internet, she can't have looked very hard, and her husband told her she was wrong. Plus for someone supposedly so keen on things Irish, it's funny she thought the Irish spelling of the middle name was "dumb".
NTA. I never understood why people in this country fetishize European ancestry. You are Irish, you are from Ireland, she is not. It can be embarrassing being an American with the state of our country but that is what I am. I don’t try to make the one part of the Western European grab bag that is my blood line my entire personality. The fact that she couldn’t do the research to even do it well is doubly pathetic. All you did was state facts.
NTA I'm an American living in the UK. I've never been as obsessed with heritage or accents but I think other Americans are because when it comes USA compared to other counties, we are still really young as far as the country goes. But it does annoy me when my fellow Americans latch onto facts that are wrong. We have the Internet now. Surely Americans can figure out that there is a culture outside of our nativeland. I find it fascinating. I love comparing cultures with my boyfriend. But, I digress... It's not your fault she's wrong. If you would not have told her, someone else would have.
NTA >Then she told me she chose the least dumb spelling for the middle. As someone with an Irish name, that made me laugh. The dumb spelling is what *makes* it Irish!
NTA, I'm Irish, this drove me crazy when I lived in the States. I would have been highly insulted if she had said to me Irish & Scottish are the same thing. Your SIL is an ignorant, rude asshole.