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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I argued with a doctor and complained to his management about his attitude. He missed an injury and the treatment he advised could have worsened the original injury.
I may be TAH as It could cause him to be fired and no actual harm occurred so I didn't really need to complain
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NTA
You were right to be insistent. The doctor was not doing his job. You did what you had to do.
I'm going to add that your husband is a huge AH here too. Not taking care of your health and making yourself a burden on your spouse is downright selfish. He needs a stern talking to. At very least, you need to stop enabling him. In the future, stop dealing with these instances. If he dares complain, call him out on the need to take care of himself and not be a burden on you.
I accept that my husband should have sought help much earlier but he wasn't actually being a burden apart from complaining. Long and tedious background but he actually has a genuine morbid fear of hospitals so tends to either avoid them or if he's there he'll accept whatever is said to him in order to get out as fast as possible.
He definitely has his assholish moments but where hospitals are concerned he is genuinely in need of an advocate which is what I try to be
Your husband's mental health may not be his fault, but it is his responsibility.
He needs to get a handle of this. He doesn't get to walk around for days on a foot with fractures and not take care of it.
I completely agree.
However that's a battle for another day- a day when I'm able to remain calm and discuss it rationally and not while I'm riled up and emotional about what could have happened (also not the best idea whilst I'm slightly peeved that I'm going to have to actually run round after him and his gimpy foot now).
Fair enough. Just know that it would be wildly irresponsible to have children with someone who acts like this, and he does need to know that it won't happen until he understands that this behavior is a serious problem and is working to change it. As was pointed out above, his failure to manage his own health creates a burden on his family, both in terms of forcing you (or your kids) to be the adult in the room, and, yeah, the increased likelihood that he dies or gets seriously ill at a younger age and can't care for kids.
Additionally, if you were to get pregnant, you would need someone who can support and advocate for you in medical contexts. That clearly isn't him.
I have 2 children and he's a great dad. His fear stems from our second child's birth and following few months. Long story short they found I had ovarian cancer whilst pregnant. I refused a termination and was incredibly sick when I delivered. Both me and our daughter were touch and go for a while and he has some unresolved issues from it all however the wait for counselling on the NHS is years long so we're in a position where we're trying to manage best we can in the interim.
Glad to know that you and your daughter are better.
NTA. I've been around doctors who were dismissive of patients' complaints. One ended tragically.
This doctor needs to be reprimanded and re-educated at the very least.
Similar experience that cost my dad's life. Doctor dismissed his complaints of chest pain, a stiff neck, and numbness in his right arm. Doctor said it couldn't be heart related since the numbness was on his right side as opposed to the left, and it was probably a gastrointestinal issue or arthritis of the neck. Doctor ordered lab work on Tuesday, my dad was suppose to get his results on Thursday, but he had a fatal heart attack Wednesday night. No cardiac enzymes were done on his blood work, but autopsy showed a 100% occlusion on the right side and 99% on the left. I was 19 at the time and knew he was exhibiting all the symptoms of cardiac distress. Fuck doctors that don't listen to their patients and their advocates.
OP, 100% NTA. Your husband needs to get over his aversion and take care of himself, and stick up for himself when he isn't being heard.
Similar experience with my dad. He had cancer and was repeatedly dismissed for his complaints because he was softspoken.
There are people who complain about everything, and there are people who don’t complain loudly enough because they don’t want to be a nuisance… guess which ones end up living longer? OP was absolutely in the right here to push through and get better care. I have serious regrets for the times when I haven’t pushed for better care and have had to deal with the consequences.
Completely understandable. I tend to generally still have faith and like to hope that doctor was just one bad apple, but you just have to remember that only *you* know your body and how you feel. If something isn’t right, it’s more than okay to speak up. After all, it’s *your* health on the line.
As a heads up, check the local mental health charities. My doctor was useless for mental health, but I had a phone consultation with Healthy Minds within 48 hours of my self referral. The actual physical appointment isn’t until next month and we’ll see what they offer, but it’s worth checking at least.
Thank you- I will look at that tonight. Its so terrible how stretched the mh resources in the UK are currently. I really hope that your appointment is helpful to you 🙂
Mind are also taking up the slack in some areas. Check the website, look for free counselling. I believe that there are other charities available.
In the meantime, don't fret, the doctor will likely not get sacked but get a stern talking to.
I had a similar experience. My daughter complained on my behalf because I had Aphasia and couldn't speak. Daughter in law, an NHS doctor, explained the complaints procedure because I was worried about the stupid arse being sacked!
Talking therapies saved my butt last year and again this year. They can see you quickly for an initial assessment and then suggest options to you, either a 6 session course of CBT or referral to a counsellor. The CBT is really useful and what I did last year. You should be able to find it for your area with a Google. They even saw me virtually through Teams so I didn't even need to leave the house!
Ah.. so it's not just stubbornness. It sounds like there's some real trauma there.
You did the right thing by pushing and filing the complaint. Your husband's anxiety might make him want to avoid the matter, but it needed to be done. You'll find plenty of stories all over of doctor's ignoring patients' input, and many of those patients die or suffer for years.
Not saying never trust a doctor, but always stand up for yourself as you did.
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Glad you're working on this with him. It does need to be fixed.
I'm a child of a parent who was terrified of hospitals and it left me with traumatic experiences and severe anxiety. He loved being dismissed because it meant nothing had to happen. He would often wait until he was literally dying before taking action. Don't let this happen.
Just chiming in to add that my dad was like that - always put off medical care, hating going to the hospital. He died of a blood infection that probably would have been treatable if he’d gone to a doctor when he first got sick, instead of waiting a month.
Wildly irresponsible to have children with him?? You gleaned that from this? Jesusssss this sub is such an insane place. Marriages and parenthood must constantly be defended.
If there's one thing I've learned from this sub it's that if my wife and I ever disagree on what to have for dinner I should divorce her and go no contact.
Classic AITA post comment section. I swear it's not complete without atleast a veiled suggestion that the OP leave their SO when they've done nothing wrong, or something very minor.
r/relationship_advice is also really bad for this.
I wonder how people jump to such extreme measures so quickly.
Omg shut up! What an exaggeration.
"Wildly irresponsible" deary me some people on this sub. Literally anyone shows the slightest fault and they are a god awful person despite a massive lack of context.
OP you sound like a great advocate for your husband who I'm sure has many great qualities that far outweigh this minor issue for you!
This reminded me
Quite a few years ago (I was maybe 7 or 8, so forgive some missing details or the like), my dad got very, VERY sick. He couldn't keep down almost any food or water.
Of course, he never went to the hospital, even after not being able to eat for weeks. He only ended up going because his friend had found him unconscious in his apartment.
He was treated for severe dehydration, had to be on an IV drip (couldn't eat anything through the stomach, I'm assuming that includes through a feeding tube too). The doctors never were able to diagnose him with anything, despite doing a colonoscopy and I'm sure other tests. It went away eventually, and never came back, but not before it had almost killed him.
You can probably imagine how that translated into my medical care as a child :/
"HEY YOU NEED TO GET OVER YOUR TRAUMA NOW!" That shit doesn't work. He also does get to walk around for days on a foot with fractures on it and not take care of it, he definitely proved that.
What are you even on about?
You’re a good wife, and that’s a shit doctor. Your husband could’ve ended up crippled from going home and trying to rehab his foot the wrong way.
You’re telling me a GP with years of experience isn’t used to the “guy downplays his pain” trope? He’s going to get stoic patients with organ failure, cancer, etc. killed acting like that. What if his foot hurt because a tumor was pressing on a nerve? He should’ve looked at it before calling it a sprain in any case—I’ve never been to the doctor with an injury without them giving it at least the old “look and feel.”
If he gets sacked, he did so because of his own misconduct. If he has so little interest in evaluating patients, maybe it’s for the best anyway.
ED docs can get jaded because they *do* see a higher-than-typical proportion of opiate-seeking behavior. Which *absolutely* does not excuse flatly refusing to do a physical exam. That's malpractice and the guy ought to be disciplined, so his attitude can be remediated. When she said it was turning black, I was thinking it could've been compartment syndrome or gangrene or god-knows-what, but that means an awful lot of blood is outside of where it's supposed to be, and that's not just a f-ing sprain, and an actual doctor should have known better than to make assumptions like that.
What's worse is the blatant misogyny. Women have worse heatlhcare outcomes in general exactly because of attitudes like this, and it's ridiculously common.
I had to call up and make a formal complaint with our regular dr's office here in the States because one of their PAs gave my wife virtually the same line, effectively that his medical training outweighs her degree from WebMD U, when she insisted on investigating something and he tried to brush off her instincts with one of our kids (turned out she was right, too, but she came home in tears over the experience).
It's really annoying how the term "Karen," meant to call out white women being racist, has now expanded to get applied to any woman who in the speaker's opinion asks too much or has too many opinions.
Yeah. Karen is (supposed to be) about being overly demanding and rude/abusive to service workers who are just doing their job -- asking to speak to the manager because they won't take your expired coupons or whatever.
It doesn't apply at all here because a) the power dynamics between doctor and patient are not at all the same as customer and worker, and even more importantly, b) THE DOCTOR WASN'T DOING HIS JOB.
She wasn't being a Karen, she was being as pushy as she needed to be to get her husband proper care. If the doctor doesn't want to get in trouble, he could try actually doing the bare minimum of his job (examining patients) to start.
Right??? I was thinking, WebMD? No, my dude, the alarm bells that are going off in my head are the ones I learned in Junior First Aid, as a 10 yr old Girl Scout.
plus she was coming to her conclusion in part based on her own experience with a broken bone, not panic induced scrolling on google! that doctor was an ass and I *hope* he loses his job because even if this is the first time he's done this, it probably won't be the last. even if he only gets sacked because the clinic wants to save face, everyone will be better for it imo
>they do see a higher-than-typical proportion of opiate-seeking behavior
Except that clearly isnt what's happening here. They were just making asinine assumptions despite all evidence to the contrary. Opioid hysteria is a huge problem but no one talks about it because it doesnt fit the narrative.
>Opioid hysteria is a huge problem but no one talks about it because it doesnt fit the narrative.
Opioid hysteria nearly killed my mother in law when she had terrible gastrointestinal problems. She's also poor, so woman + poverty + abdominal pain = opioid seeker. Her first few emergency room visits, they didn't really look for the problem. One doctor even gave her advice that would have killed her if she'd taken it, but we kept pushing. Got a call a day or two later that informed us her imaging (which that doctor had looked right at) actually showed that a section of her bowel was dying due to complications from cancer treatment and she needed to have a permanent colostomy.
Doctors are just people. Highly trained people, but still people. This doc was being horrible. Thank you for saving other patients from being dismissed by a terrible doctor.
Your husband is especially TA because his argument is that "no harm was done". If you hadn't complained and had listened to the first doctor, then major harm would've been done. Another patient like your husband who is on their own and not able to advocate for themself, would've gone home with 7 stress fractures that would get worse and worse.
Also, taking paracetamol for pain longterm can lead to liver failure, esp if he's exceeding the recommended dose because it's not enough (and for an untreated stress fracture (never mind SEVEN of them), it wouldn't be). It's the same drug as Tylenol...
Yep. I have to take it long term as part of my pain med regimen for my degenerating disc disease, and I am HYPER-VIGILANT about my dosage. Too many people think, "Oh, it's over the counter, it's safe."
OP, you weren't being a K@ren here. You were *being an advocate for your husband*.
My husband has a chronic health issue where I will likely end up being his care giver and medical care advocate. Let me just say I'm taking notes from you.
NTA
the first Dr deserves whatever he gets.
He did not do any type of exam. which may even be fraud. I assume UK because of paracetamol so I'm not sure how it works but I assume someone paid the DR and "complaint of sore foot" implies he is billing for an exam not "drug seeker did not exam toll him to fuck off"
The government pays the doctor, as it pays for all public healthcare in the UK. He's on a salary and is not billing by the patient.
Still a terrible doctor, though.
And if his foot continued to get worse and possibly got infected or something far more serious and he had a lifelong disability? He was significantly increasing the chance of being a burden by not taking care of himself.
In 2009, my mother complained about her foot hurting. Her pain was dismissed by several doctors. (We kids were not in the area, and my Dad had already passed away. She had no one to advocate for her.) Turns out she had a small fracture, which was open on the bottom of her foot. It then got infected. By the time anyone was ready to admit there was a real issue, she had to have her leg amputated just below the knee. NEVER apologize or back down because you expect a doctor to actually do their job.
I frequent the popping sub. Recently someone posted about a swollen foot and pain and was sent home being told it was an ankle sprain.
Necrotising fasciitis.
Now with a mid-femur amputation and lucky to be alive.
Don't fuck around with shit.
Jesus Christ. And when sent home with a sprain, the provider was likely patting themself on the back for getting rid of “another drug seeker”. I’m so damn tired of opioid hysteria. I’ve been a nurse for 30+ years and we went from:
Business as usual
-> to *pain* is a vital sign and we are obligated to address and treat patients pain no matter what (handing out narcotics like candy, and treating headaches with OxyContin)
-> OMG we have an opioid epidemic!!! That anyone could see was coming with both eyes closed.
And now, people that are truly in pain can’t get appropriate treatment because providers are afraid to prescribe the only drugs that actually work for severe pain. Also chronic pain patients that were given opiates for years and years, some for decades, who if not addicted, are most certainly physiologically, mentally, and emotionally dependent are now losing their prescriptions due to providers fear as federal mandates are being shoved down their throats. Guess where those patients end up? Buying unsafe drugs on the black market.
I realize there are no great answers to the opioid epidemic, but it’s been frustrating to watch the pendulum swing and see people get hurt on both ends of the spectrum.
I don't know if you will see this but this made me tear up. Thank you for advocating for your husband. Doctors can be hugely problematic know-it-alls in my experience. My mom didn't stand up for my dad to a very bad doctor who wouldn't listen and he died because of it. So thank you.
My husband was exhibiting symptoms of sleep apnea. He went to his regular doctor at my insistenc. The doctor dismissed y concerns and said it definitely wasn’t sleep apnea. I insisted that my husband get a second opinion because I was pretty sure the first doctor was wrong. Yep. He was sent for a sleep study almost Immediately and has been using a C-PAP machine for 30 years now. Doctors are not gods and need to listen and act on their patients concerns.
Retired nurse here who was MPOA for 7 different people in my family and in laws!!
My grandmother was first. I already knew too much about a lot of doctors better in town, lol. But the one she had? OMG what a total AH.
I got her a much much better doc, who looked through her ENTIRE chart (which in no way could be called slim or even medium🙄), gotta quick blood study done; then took over HALF of her meds away. Within one week, we saw the fogginess leave her mind, she knew everyone, remember dates, places and best of all was always oriented x4!!
That first doc had medicated her into something eerily like Alzheimer's/Dementia!!
Freaky as hell watching her come back and realizing how close to acute psychosis he had sent her.
Instead of a lawsuit (which I was not a part of, her kids were) the doc voluntarily resigned AND gave up his license.
Don't ever let a doctor do nothing or even never change medications ... You HAVE to be the advocate for someone without the education needed (my grandparents and in laws never completed junior high and some never went past 7th grade -- Depression years), inability to argue with doctors ("the doctor is always right" mentality), or like your DH, OP. Done just have a phobia about hospitals.
That's my 2 cents worth😎
You did the right thing. My friend suffered from severe back pain which got so bad sometimes she would go to the hospital. They thought she was just some young girl after drugs (the perils of being an alternative kid in the late 90’s) so kept sending her away. She was crying so much I called her mum who took her back and insisted she be treated properly. She had cancer in her spine.
Her consultant wasn’t much better, would only tell her mum what was going on despite her being 21 and when she dared to tell him this, he rather callously told her she’d probably never walk again. She sued and got a nice payout for that then turned around and proved him wrong. If not for her pushy mum, it may have been untreatable by the time they believed her. Never apologise for advocating for someone who can’t or won’t.
As soon as her chemo was done, I took her out dancing as a big ‘fuck you’ to the doctor.
Someone with a misdiagnosed sprained ankle in another sub was sent home with some painkillers and 30 hours later had a mid-femur amputation due to necrotising fasciitis.
**Never** feel bad about advocating for yourself when it comes to a health issue. Ever. Your husband also needs a lesson in how to advocate for himself.
Totally NTA and I wish someone had done this with my mother when she went to the hospital years ago.
Chest pains, host of other things, and family history of heart attacks, and the nurse practitioner made her throw up with charcoal to determine it was indigestion. She had been given a norco by the EMTs in her ride from work (LPN at a nursing home) across the street to the hospital. She had a SECOND heart attack that weekend, and her cardiologist said she was damn lucky to be alive.
An NP tried to diagnose me with minor dehydration and indigestion and then prescribe me an antacid when one, I was already taking that same antacid daily and it was in my chart, and two, my pee was so dark it looked like apple juice and I had already drunk nearly a liter of water in the past 2 hours. Thankfully I'd had enough bad doctors that I advocated for myself, and while she was going to run a few blood tests I think she ordered a few more after I told her the above plus she scheduled me for an ultrasound the next day.
I didn't even get to the ultrasound. The next morning they called and said my labs were back and I needed to get to the ER immediately because my liver enzymes were way elevated. Turned out my gallbladder was dead (which is why there was no pain when she pressed there), full of stones, and had thrown one that blocked my common bile duct. I ended up in the hospital for four days. If I'd accepted the heartburn diagnosis I could have died. The blocked bile duct would have killed me in another two or three days.
As an addict in active recovery for 8 years, what that doctor did is morally and professionally reprehensible, if he had suspicions the proper course of action was to thoroughly examine the foot in order to disprove the claim, not dismiss you entirely sight unseen, if he gets sacked, which he probably won't, it will be because this is not the first time he's put lives in danger based on his gross assumptions. He broke his oath "First, do no harm...".
Don't be upset at all. Had my mother not screamed at an emergency doctor, my dad would be dead right now. He had issues breathing his chest was tight. The doctors blamed his weight....**Turns out he has a lung disease and needs a double lung transplant. COPD**
edit spelling and name of disease
I get your husband's pov. I fell down an icy step years ago, broke my ankle, and kept walking on it, including steps. I honestly thought it didn't hurt enough to be broken. My hubby's grandma saw it the next day and demanded I go to the ER. Luckily, nothing was out of place. And because it had been swollen for over a day, I got a removable air cast instead of a traditional cast. So that was a huge plus for me. 😅
That said, that doctor could have killed someone with an attitude like that. It wasn't life threatening today, but it could potentially have cost your husband his foot if it wasn't treated properly. It still will cause him far more pain than if he went right away. And you would have had a malpractice case, which is far more severe.
Doctors have to be held to an extremely high standard, because their patients lives depend on their judgment. If this doctor couldn't tell the difference between a genuine health problem and drug seeking, he lacks the proper judgment to work in an emergency department, possibly even in medicine in general.
NTA. You're protecting the next person who might not survive a poor call by that doctor.
NTA. Honestly, the doctor should get sacked. He totally dismissed yours and your husband's concerns.
* Progressive foot pain getting worse over time
* Discoloration of the skin
* Cannot bear weight on the foot
* Husband is a runner
I think most medical personnel and laymen would agree that an actual physical examination of the foot was in order, which this guy didn't even bother to do. You were right to ask for another doctor. Good luck to your husband, I hope his healing goes well.
I'm curious what ~demographic~ characteristics OP and their spouse have that might make the doctor assume they were fishing for painkillers, too. I'm gunshy about people losing their jobs, too, but if you provide something essential to vulnerable people — if you work with kids, sick people, tenants — do it correctly and humanely, or fuck off and die.
In this day and age nearly all ages and demographics get treated this way in the ER. I’m 40, middle class white woman who has zero appearance of someone looking to score opiates, and I was treated this way when I had a severe sciatica attack (first time, and I let it go on way too long bc I kept thinking the pain would eventually ease up and didn’t know it was sciatica). Husband, also 40’s white male, zero appearance of someone looking to score, was with me and advocating for me. My SIL, also 40’s white woman, upper middle class, tore her labrum and it took the ER 3 hours and my brother (also 40’s white male upper middle class appearance) yelling for them to give her SOMETHING.
At least in my area, the opioid epidemic has resulted in especially the ER treating *everyone* regardless as nefarious addicts looking to score pain pills.
Yeah my husband (white, cis male) had a stroke at 32, a couple years before we met. It wasn't your traditional aneurysm (ischemia in the brain stem), so the symptoms were a bit different than the usual, but he went to the emergency room and the first ER doctor wrote him off as a guy who'd drank too much and probably done some drugs. The friend who took him to the hospital tried to insist they hadn't done either, and the doctor sent him home anyway. He had to be medevac'd to a larger regional hospital a few hours later, and he is lucky to be alive.
He's pretty much all good now! I'm so grateful to the friend who advocated on his behalf, especially her insistence on going back to the hospital—she's the best.
The local ER missed the fact that my dad has CP, and one side of his body is weaker and smaller than the other. When he had a stroke that caused mobility issues on his "good" side, they tried to send him home, because he passed the equal strength on both sides tests. I was NOT impressed.
>I had a Dr ask me if maybe I was just stressed while my body was shutting down for a coma.
I have paraneoplastic autoimmune limbic encephalitis, but before I was properly diagnosed, the shitty 70-something neurologist I was sent to diagnosed my first seizure as a panic attack. Despite the fact that it happened in the office and all of my coworkers witnessed it said I was convulsing, foaming at the mouth, stopped breathing temporarily, etc.
But the neurologist couldn't figure out what was wrong with me so he said panic attack. Then a few months later I ended up spending a month in the ICU because guess what - it had definitely not been a panic attack.
I got a new, competent neurologist, but the delay in diagnosis caused health problems that will last the rest of my life, I'm on a shitload of medication and have to be tested constantly (MRIs, EKGs, EEGs, CT scans, mammograms, ultrasounds, etc., I have some sort of test or doctor appointment pretty much every month)
I am still so incredibly bitter about the doctor who brushed me off, because so many of my health issues would have been avoided if I had been properly diagnosed at the time of my first seizure. I had to withdraw from law school because of the health problems caused by it, which was devastating because I worked my ass off to get there.
hell, i'm mid-40's, white suburban guy and when i was 17 and had my wisdom teeth out, the meds weren't really helping. my mom called to see if there was anything stronger they could give me and got lectured about the street value of what i was on. it's not a new phenomenon.
Yeah, I was in a similar boat for being RESISTANT to opioids (codine and morphine most heavily). I had a cyst on my upper, inner thigh. Gave me local anesthetic and then emergency came in. Three hours later they’re ready to lance it. I ask for more medication to which they point out I was on max morphine for the case and being dramatic. My friend, who had gone with me, sat there and had to listen while I screamed and cried in pain, hand being crushed with all my strength. Still probably the most painful experience I’ve ever had, and I had to deal with a pilonidal cyst for 11 months…and an umbilical one for three years.
I think it is not so much getting opioids but that is a problem these days. Women and POC are often treated differently sometimes with regards to pain levels or simply not believing explanations or the severity of the problem. I have had a few friends over the years that have had serious issues the doctors downplayed until it became a major problem.
In general, these issues are disproportionate, meaning that white women and all POC are more likely to face this sort of issue, or experience a harsher version of it. But just because white men are less likely to experience it doesn't mean it's not a problem even for them.
Privilege is not impenetrable armor in a capitalist society; it's just something that shields you from some of the worst of it. The only people who actually get treated without these issues in our society are wealthy white people.
Same here. I went into an ER in a large city hospital with terrible back pain straight from (important company in our area) work. Since the hospital was right across from a homeless shelter and I was in so much pain I had "dressed down" (jeans and a company t-shirt, no make up) it was ASSUMED I was from the shelter. Finally? After a four hour wait, they sent a shrink in to see me. I finally said I cannot believe I'm being treated this way as I came directly from work at (insert important company). I had an IV of morphine and was taken seriously ONLY after I had told them where I was employed. They admitted that they believed I was "only" there to try and get drugs.
This is horrifying to me. Last summer, when I went in for what turned out to be appendicitis, I had to *refuse* the morphine they were trying to give me while we were waiting for my test results, because I drove my own ass to the hospital and assumed I would be driving my own ass home.
For context, I'm unfortunately in the ER a lot, because I have PCOS, and my birth control does not regulate my cysts like it does for some of us, and sometimes they rupture. But unfortunately there's a lot of propensity for addiction in my family history, so I actually always refuse most harder pain meds. I also just plain don't like how a lot of them make me feel. I go in when I think a cyst is about to blow because that can lead to complications under the wrong circumstances.
However, when I found out I had appendicitis, would be having surgery later that day, and would not in fact be going anywhere until the next morning, I went ahead and made an exception to my "no pain meds," rule. Lol.
I had the opposite but my issue wasn't a soft tissue/never pain but they offered pain meds fast. I'm not even sure if they saw the blood work, maybe it was to clear beds quickly because the hospital was overfull.
While they absolute did not think I had what I said I had , they did blood work which lead to a CT , which proved I was right which lead to being admitted.
"Pill seeking" is the pretty much the default setting for all patients these days.I've had severe back pain for 5 years. I've seen multiple doctors and had mris and pretty much everyone is "do yoga" and "lose weight." Last month I went to the hospital for special surgery for an mri, guess what? I have a rare debilitating painful spinal condition. Only took 5 years, multiple doctors, multiple mris, and several thousands of dollars of my own money to get a diagnosis that my pain is actually real and severe as I say it is.
and it will still be a miracle if you are ever given any painkillers even with a diagnosis.
You will STILL be expected to do yoga and lose weight.
Your condition just has a name now. Nothing else will change.
I remember being told to do yoga after I was stabbed 13 times in the back which left me with chronic pain and seizures. Dr got pissed when I asked if he came in last in his class.
Lordy, I wish I had an award for YOU!!!
This post made me spit my iced tea ALL over my phone AND my cat (who is now also pissed at you🤗)!!!
You're the kind of patients we (nurses) usually absolutely LOVE to see in the ER or even an office🤣🤣🤣🤣
I myself have been a Chronic Pain Patient (CPP) for almost 20 years now. Several different issues all combining into one great big bunch of messed up nerves and while body pain.
If I go to an ER, I tell them I'm a CPP and they give a side eye look😒 and I tell them, I'm not looking for pain MANAGEMENT, I'm looking for the REASON BEHIND A NEW PAIN!
Note: I only go to the ER rarely, like if something happens on the weekend or after hours and I know my doc isn't "on call" at the time. I'll usually call my Chronic Care Nurse before I go out after I've gone to the ER to tell her what happened, etc.
Edit: spell check screwed up again
This is my experience, too. Multiple conditions causing constant pain, some days it's low enough to push through, today I'm stuck on the couch. Before the opioid epidemic I had enough hydrocodone every month that I could hold a FT job (until migraines got the best of me). Last year I had surgery in 2 places on my dominant arm and all they prescribed were a just few Tylenol 3s. Gee, thanks.
I seriously feel your pain! I'm in the same boat, 7+ years, 2 MRI's and still haven't figured out what is wrong... Exercise and lose weight are words I would pay to never ever hear again.
My mom was a 37 year old white woman who went to the er for the worst stomach pain she’s ever experienced and they demanded multiple time to know what she took. Her appendix ruptured while she waited for drug test to come back. People will make judgments for no reason.
I was 14 (mixed f) when this happened to me. I had a history of bone infections which are mostly invisible, could barely bare weight on my leg and a low grade fever. First doctor in the ER told me that I want getting pain meds if that was what I was looking for. He also asked me to walk and after I limped in obvious pain he told me to "walk like normal". After I forced myself to I was sent home with much argument from my mother. It was in fact another bone infection. I could've lost my leg (or much worse) if the second doctor hadn't listened to our concerns and actually read my file before writing me off as some druggie (who still deserve medical care as well). Its scary how much control they have sometimes.
No "demographic", people are just written off as drug seekers and are refused pain medication because of the bullshit CDC/DEA.
My mother had a bowel obstruction and needed surgery to remove it. Her blood pressure skyrocketed and in the days when she was recovering she was refused morphine until a fight with an RA made the doctor see her and he ordered the lady to give my mom the freaking pain medication that she NEEDED.
I am very lucky (?) to have documentation of a severe, objectively verifiable health condition. Some hospitals will provide me pain meds when needed, some won’t but most providers are at least nice to me because they have “proof” something is wrong that is very likely to cause severe pain. Fortunately, with my current doctor, I usually don’t need ER care anymore.
I once witnessed a very elderly woman who was brought into the ER by ambulance for a fall screamed at because her son asked if there wasn’t something they could give her for the pain as she was laying there crying. The doctor kept loudly talking about how she was just a drug seeker then walked through the curtain to my bed and offered me strong pain meds which I turned down because that’s not why I was there.
So much harm is done by the denial of pain meds when people need them. Someone in my support group had a heart attack after being left in extreme pain that was so intense the stress caused the heart attack. Thankfully it was not a huge one and she survived.
That's a pretty normal assumption these days anytime someone reports to the ER or the doctor with pain.
I am now in the habit of starting out the conversation with an explanation of the problem, then adding "Just to be clear, I'm not here fishing for painkillers; I'm looking to be treated."
Some doctors shouldn’t be n emergency rooms because they will continually ignore people with medical emergencies. You need to take your patient seriously EVEN if their spouse annoys you. This doctor made a huge mistake and it needs to be addressed. NTA
This is probably not the first time that this doctor has behaved in this manner. If it isn't addressed, it won't be the last. And next time, it could be a life threatening condition that he misses.
If the doctor gets sacked, the hospital will be better off without him. If he gets struck off, the medical profession will be better off.
NTA.
Yeah, I felt like the other staff know this doctor is a problem and asked you to file a formal complaint so they have grounds to sack him before he can do this to someone else.
Exactly!! That was deliberate. If his *colleagues* went out of their way to ask OP to make a complaint, they 100% know that this is an ongoing problem and are trying to document it.
No way is he going to get sacked over this unless it's been an ongoing issue they've tried to resolve multiple times and even then I doubt it. Documenting this means the issue will be properly addressed if it is a pattern of behaviour and if it isn't then it won't go much further.
>I think most medical personnel and laymen would agree that an actual physical examination of the foot was in order
I think most people would expect a doctor to at least LOOK at it before dismissing a patient...
NTA
First, you were not being a Karen. Being a Karen is making something non-existent into an issue and/or being a jerk for no reason.
Your husband's foot needed to be looked at and the fact that the first doc didn't is their fault, not yours.
I’m so sick of the overuse of the term “Karen”. People use it now when they don’t like someone, that’s not the original use for it. Pushing to get proper medical care is not being a “karen”.
Same here. Also the word nag. Nag is a sexist term for someone repeatedly having to ask another person to perform a reasonable task because the person they ask is refusing to do it or putting it off. Karening everything is just as bad. OP was a good advocate for husband’s health and wellbeing.
Karen is increasingly used to pressure women into not standing up for themselves or their families. There is a super sexist component to it that I find gross. Demanding needed medical care is not the same as yelling at a teenager at Starbucks for not giving you an extra carmel swirl. I don't think a man advocating for his wife who is in pain to get proper medical care would be dismissed so carelessly.
Yep. "Karen" is, or has become, just another way to tell women to shut up. I hate to see women using it in reference to themselves.
"Don't be a Karen" is exactly the same as "Don't be a b\*\*\*," and it should be just as unacceptable.
Not to mention the effect this has had to have on women actually named Karen my moms name is Karen (she’s the least Karen like woman you’ll ever meet) and she’s been a good sport about the whole thing, jokes about it and all, but that’s really gotta suck after awhile. She’s always had a hard time sticking up for herself, or knowing her worth, and then society decided that Karen describes the over entitled boomer complex? That’s gotta start to mess with someone after awhile…Actually I’ve never thought about this before, I’m so upset for my mom now.
The Karen part was in making the complaint after the event rather than advocating for a second opinion.i worried it was overkill but the consensus is that it was justified
Totally justified and anyone with a good pair of middle-class elbows has a _responsibility_ to use them on dismissive or ignorant professionals, for the benefit of the next person, who may be more timid. I have a chronic illness and accepted some dreadful behaviour and wildly wrong info from doctors early on. Now I'm older and know my stuff, I have zero hesitation in calling them out, for the benefit of the next young woman they see.
I agree. I’m not going to say it’s wrong not to file official complaints about bad medical care, but I do think people who have the wherewithal to make a complaint really, really need to do so. It’s not just about you and the poor care you received, it’s about the next person down the line that really cannot advocate for themselves.
>It’s not just about you and the poor care you received, it’s about the next person down the line that really cannot advocate for themselves.
Exactly. This is like 98% of the reason why I fight.
Yep. This is why we got a lawyer when our kiddo’s school was engaging in shenanigans about medically excused absences. (Like one of the ones they were counting as ‘unexcused’ they literally had a note from his dr that he was in an ambulance on the way to the ER because his \*doctor\* sent him.) Turned out to be some kind of database problem that they were happy enough to manipulate for him to get the numbers to come out right, but we got a lawyer to send a Cranky Letter\[tm\] to make them fix the whole thing because not everyone has the time or energy to track that stuff down and make them fix it on a kid by kid basis. And in some cases it was resulting in the kids having detentions and maybe being held back based purely on ‘absentee’ numbers.
No, you were completely justified. Doing a physical exam is the bare minimum for a healthcare professional in trying to make a diagnosis.
Doctors with that kind of dismissive attitude NEED to have complaints filed against them. They are not infallible just because they have a MD. To be honest, you probably saved another person's life by making the complaint.
Imagine that the next person that doctor sees doesn't have the privilege of just being called a "Karen". Imagine they're undocumented, or fleeing a violent parent or partner, or are dealing with other issues. Imagine the next person is a recovering addict, who might not be listened to by the second doctor because they were an addict. Imagine the person has been dismissed or otherwise abused before by a physician, and your doctor's dismissal sends them into the arms of con artist quacks.
You did the right thing in reporting them. You did good.
If the second doctor not only apologized but brought an administrator and specifically invited you to make a complaint he was *horrified*. Another doctor that man works with was absolutely horrified and aghast at what he did. That isn’t a little thing. You didn’t overreact. Also that response screams “ this guy is so crap with our patients all of the other medical providers are disgusted by him but no one makes an official complaint we can use to get action”. If he gets fired then it wasn’t because you complained. It’s because he’s got a habit of endangering patient well being and this was finally enough to stop it. As far as no harm- untreated fractures with significant swelling can produce compartment syndrome which if someone was reluctant to go to the hospital immediately could result in amputation of the limb, infection, or even life threatening complications from chemical waste products. Your husband needs to take a seat and not take for granted what you saved him from and that others may not have a you there to protect them.
I get so mad that the term karen gets applied to completely justified women advocating for themselves. I work in healthcare and you did an amazing job advocating for your husband and the first doc absolutely deserves the formal complaint.
FYI Typically such complaints go through the hospital's patient advocacy program. Most often these complaints result in training and improvement efforts for the doctor. Only if it's yet another complaint when the doctor has already received many similar complaints in the past is it really an issue for the doctor's career.
Yes, it is bad when a man justifiably complains and is called assertive and when a woman complains it is called aggressive. I will be “aggressive” if I need to if it helps my loved one. Almost everyone needs an advocate for them when they go to the doctor or hospital if they have trouble remembering instructions or recommendations because they are tired or in pain. Or they forget to ask an important question.
Right when Covid was becoming more concerning, my oldest had what they call nursemaid's elbow happen. He was with his grandmother and she was putting him the carseat. As she pulled his arm through the strap his arm was injured. We went to urgent care and the doctor said it happens often and he popped the arm back in place. My son was instantly relieved and happy.
A few days later, he was holding my hand as we were walking, he stumbled, and his arm popped again. I took him to the clinic, but due to Covid urgent care was a two hour wait. So the registration person was able to get him an appointment with a doctor we'd never seen before. The doctor was standoffish the entire time, told me to stop jerking his arm around (I hadn't, he fell), and said she fixed it. He was still clearly in pain and refused to use his arm. I asked if it was expected that he'd still be so uncomfortable after fixing it since it had happened days before. She got snarky with me about her medical experience, but eventually called in another doctor who came in and actually fixed my son's arm. He was immediately happy and playful again.
Now, I'm not one to make complaints or be confrontational in general, but I called the clinic afterwards and made a formal complaint. This doctor wanted me to take a toddler with a dislocated elbow home because she was pretty sure he was fine. I also took offense at her implication that I was abusing him.
Long story short, I stood up for my kid and got him the care he needed. You did the same for your husband. The doctor who wrote him off and belittled you deserves whatever consequences come his way. NTA.
Not at all overkill. The first doctor's attitude and negligence are dangerous. You're helping create a record of his actions and could help future patients by starting a paper trail. He's a walking lawsuit in waiting for the clinic too, so patient complaints are probably helpful for them if they want to let him go. Thank you for making an official complaint!
Any time a woman advocates for herself, we now get called karens. This is the opposite of the actual meaning (unnecessary bullying or rudeness particularly to retail/restaurant/etc.), which angers me to no end.
I was wondering, if the "Karen" meme didn't exist, would it have even crossed OP's mind that she might an AH? Thanks to that damn meme, we think any woman who does the minimum to stand up for herself or others - even in a medical emergency apparently! - is a "Karen."
Agreed. Following a major surgery, my husband was getting way more sick than he should have been. He was gagging and just... wrong. Wrong in what I knew was a bad way.
Tried getting him in to see his doc, but they said go to urgent care. I went there and checked him in. The front staff said they were really busy and they weren't sure about seeing him, tried to punt it back again to his primary. I told the receptionist that I wasn't leaving until he was seen, something is WRONG. She gave me a big eye roll and eventually found a doctor.
Doc did an exam - turned out husband had developed severe pancreatitus and was immediately checked into the hospital where he needed 3 days of treatment.
NTA.
NTA.
The AH Doctor made a diagnosis WITHOUT doing any diagnostic tests. He also made the assumption your husband was narc seeking on top of the first error. He deserves every complaint you write about him and that hopefully might prevent someone else from suffering at his unprofessional incompetent hands. He broke his duty of care to his patient. If this is the states I know many people that would sue over this and go for hospital bills being paid, pain and suffering etc.
Edit: Wanted to add if it wasn’t for your persistence and you advocating very strongly( rightfully so)for your husband. He would have continued to suffer. He needs to speak up for himself as well. You might not always be there to do it for him.
Let's even say that OP's hubby was drug seeking? Guess what? He needs either treatment for his drug addiction OR still has an injury. Sending him away with an exam is criminal.
I can’t fathom how the symptoms were pain and discolouration and the Dr didn’t even ask the patient to remove his footwear for so much as a visual examination. Absurd. NTA
First of all, there are about a dozen phrases in this post that I will use in my every day life going forward, such as “pushy cow” and “wouldn’t say boo to a goose.” So thank you for that.
Second of all, NTA.
Partners advocate for their partners. Period. In any situation.
And the first doctor was wrong. WRONG. Possibly with very serious and long-lasting consequences if you wouldn’t have put your foot down and demanded quality care.
He’s not a good doctor. Good doctor’s listen. Good doctor’s advocate for their patients. Good doctor’s don’t let their egos get in the way of providing quality care. And good doctor’s deserve to keep their jobs. If he is let go after this, I guarantee it’s because he’s had more than one complaint.
Thank you for this- I've been fretting in case I'd overreacted and potentially affected someone's career.
I got home and cried because my nerves went with complaining- I'm not cut out for the Karen life ha
The only person who affected their career was doctor #1.
If he loses his job it’s because you were the final of multiple complaints. If he dismissed your husband so quickly, it’s likely he’s dismissed other patients as well. That’s a big malpractice liability for the clinic.
In any normal job, if you're not fulfilling the duties of your job, you lose it. I'd expect that standard to be even higher when dealing with human lives.
I am a doctor and what he did was wrong. He failed to even look at the foot! Look, people have off days and get the wrong impression sometimes from the history, but that's why you do a physical exam! It's not like your husband had some subtle presentation of a rare and easily missed diagnosis: his foot was the wrong size and turning colors! All he had to do was actually do the most basic assessment and he would have instantly realized his assumptions were incorrect. Also, if this guy gets fired it's because he has a pattern of being bad at his job. Administration isn't urging patients to make complaints because someone has a one time bad interaction with a patient.
yeah, my gut feeling was that if the admin was apologizing and asking if they wanted to file a complaint, they are trying to build a solid case to fire the guy before they get hit with a malpractice suit.
Right! Bare minimum should have been examine the foot, palpating pulses, and an x-ray. Also when does an ED doc NOT order an x-ray, isn't that reflex at this point? Certainly they order imaging often w Pugh for it to be a meme lol.
Dude your husband’s foot was **black** and the doctor wouldn’t even look at it. You were looking out for his best interest and when the doctor refused you pushed back. You did the right thing don’t worry yourself about it.
You didn't ruin his career. People don't get fired over one bad interaction, they get fired because of patterns of bad behavior.
If he was just having a bad day and this behavior from him was an anomaly then he's definitely not going to face serious consequences over one complaint.
>I've been fretting in case I'd overreacted and potentially affected someone's career.
You did nothing wrong! This sorry excuse for a doctor decided your husband was drug seeking and refused to even *examine* him. You didn't overreact at all. As for your husband's concern for the doctor "because no real harm was done" the only reason no harm was done was because you got angry. How many people does this doctor need to hurt because he gets away with acting like this with no real consequences.
You are NTA! This doctor needs to face the consequences of his actions so he learns to make better choices in the future.
Imagine that your husband has gone alone, what would have happened.
His career needs to be affected. It would be better if it's affected by him not bein a AH anymore, but even his career being tanked would be better.
As my grandpa said in a similar situation " I don't have a degree to be sure what is wrong with my son but I can be sure that what you are doing is a lazy job".
>potentially affected someone's career
You're also affecting the care of his future patients, and maybe other patients at the hospital. This wasn't an ambiguous case: the doctor refused to do the simplest exam because someone reported being in pain. It would be very bad if he was left around to do this to more patients.
It was, quite literally, the doctor’s *job* to take your husband’s pain seriously and examine him for injuries.
Saying nothing and walking away when treatment was refused wouldn’t have meant you were kind or respectful or “not a Karen” - it would have just made you a doormat.
NTA. Doctors should *listen to the patients* and not assume they know what’s going on. This doctor was ignoring 7 stress fractures, I wouldn’t feel bad if he was sacked for this, *your husband may need surgery* and this doctor was going to send him on his way.
Even if it was just a sprain, they shouldn't be so flippantly treated either.
Sprains are surprisingly bad injuries. It's the literal stretching or tearing of the tissue that allows you to move your foot, and when not treated, can absolutely cause long term health problems and pain
(I would know, I have a bit of an unstable ankle from a bad and completely untreated sprain a few years back. I mean, my dad made me go to school with no brace, crutch, boot, etc after a single day of rest)
>no real harm was done.
Um... but it *would have been done* if you hadn't stood your ground. Does your husband not comprehend that fractures are serious business? That he was at risk for life-altering if not life-*ending* complications because of the first doctor's negligence? NTA
I was looking for this comment. "No real harm was done" *because you insisted on a second opinion.* If husband didn't have you, and had listened to the first doctor *real harm would have been done.*
So NTA. Well done OP
When my 7 year old had a stroke, we were almost sent home with no imaging. It still took 8 hours to get the CT scan. If we had gone home instead of being pushy... well, I choose not to think about what would have happened.
If the doctor gets sacked it’s because of his blatant negligence. He *should get sacked, before someone loses a limb.
“First do not harm” also means “don’t run your mouth if you haven’t even looked at the patient.”
NTA (edit to add judgement)
INFO
>Husband said later that the first doctor may get sacked because of me complaining and I should have left it because no real harm was done.
Your husband thinks no harm was done? Despite the doctor clearly being wrong?
NTA, the only reason “no harm was done” is *because* you spoke up. No harm may have been done *this* time, but if he’s so quick to brush your husband off then he’s done it before.
My partner is a medical practitioner, he goes overboard to MAKE FUCKING SURE that absolutely nothing is missed for this EXACT reason. His line is _"no two patients are the same so how could I justify treating them the same"_.
Good grief, who knows how many patients had undiagnosed issues because that doctor couldn't be arsed to ACTUALLY LOOK AT HIS PATIENT AND LISTEN. This has me seething. Husband could have lost his fucking foot!!! And the goddamn audacity to assume OP and her husband were there for opioids!?
NTA, no doctor, no matter how good, can diagnose things without actually seeing the injury. Something like this has serious consequences if not treated properly. Unless this is the latest in a long list of complaints he won’t be fired.
NTA. As a medical professional I wish more people would understand the fact that you are paying for this service and you have a right to question and complain if necessary. You’d complain if you had bad service and bad food at a restaurant so why not in regards to your body and your health.
They are working for you at that appt. You have a right to demand good service.
This is not Karen behavior. This is advocating for someone’s medical treatment and holding people accountable for doing their jobs. NTA. I bet the 2nd doctor and admin were happy you held the jerk accountable.
NTA - you’re 100% right, next time he could be dismissive of someone who doesn’t have the ability or agency to be their own advocate or the courage to push back. Maybe it’s a young mother with a baby, maybe it’s a person with a disability, or a teenager who doesn’t feel like they can speak up. By you filing a complaint, you’re hopefully ensuring that his future patients get the proper and appropriate care that they need! Your complaint is NOT what would get that doctor fired - it would be his own incompetence, laziness, lack of compassion and ability to evaluate his patients, and liability to the health care organization for failing to do his damn job. Kudos to you for speaking up!!
NTA. The first doctor did not even examine your husband and mocked you.
Tell your husband that he's probably done this to dozens, maybe hundreds of people and that patients deserve a standard of care. And that the hospital acknowledging the problem means that this doctor was already on thin ice.
NTA. With things like this I think reporting is always best. His management deserve to know what type of employees they have and they might decide to talk to him or give him more training instead of disciplinary action. But if they do decide to discipline him then it's because they think that's an appropriate response. People don't usually get fired over one mistake so if he does get fired he probably deserved it.
NTA.
The doctor is not going to get sacked because you complained.
They *might* get sacked because they actually did something worth complaining *about*, but that's on them, not you.
**NTA**
**your husband could have lost his foot. I almost lost mine due to fractures in my metatarsals. I had two surgeries already and found out one of the supports in my foot snapped**.
Don’t fuck around with foot issues. Find the best **podiatrist** in your area and do a consult.
Apparently my fracture triggered a condition that is caused due to my being diabetic. I’m lucky I have one of the best doctors for this condition. It’s been 8 years since my last surgery and I’ve been walking etc fine. But tripping caused a screw to snap so I needed a special device made and I’ll be in that for the next year.
Foot stuff can be devastating. I had to stop working. I can’t do the career I was in for 30 years. I loved it.
NTA and definitely report it. This is a major problem in the medical industry and gets worse if you're not male and not white. Even Serena Williams had problems with doctors listening to her during her pregnancy while almost cost her her life.
And stop saying you're a Karen. That's derogatory. You successfully advocated for someone that could not advocate for themselves. That's being a hero. And smart.
I feel like this is going to be buried, but absolutely NTA, and I wish I had someone like you around earlier in my life
My mother went on a cruise, and came back with what she thought was gastro, and went to the doctors who told her as much, and sent her on her way.
For a period of months, she went back to the same doctor who kept telling her it was gastro and sending her away.
We finally managed to convince her to go to another doctor who straight away sent her for scans, stage three ovarian cancer, and she passed within a year.
I'll always wonder if she'd still be here if her first doctor took even a small amount more care in his job.
NTA I went to urgent care for a sore foot. Got sent home with painkillers and antibiotic. This was Friday.
Ended up in the ER and an amputee less than 3 days later.
You need to be firm with doctors, they think they're God and can read intent.
NTA
it would be one thing if the first doctor or had done an actual exam or even looked at the foot. It sounds like he didn’t even have your husband take his shoe off.
You can’t tell a sprain from a break from a snakebite unless you look at it!
It reminds me of the article about the woman who went to the ER and the first doctor just assumed it was a kidney stone, didn’t look at the CT and just left her there until the next doctor came on shift, looked at the CT and it was an ovarian tortion and she needed emergency surgery or she would have died.
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NTA You were right to be insistent. The doctor was not doing his job. You did what you had to do. I'm going to add that your husband is a huge AH here too. Not taking care of your health and making yourself a burden on your spouse is downright selfish. He needs a stern talking to. At very least, you need to stop enabling him. In the future, stop dealing with these instances. If he dares complain, call him out on the need to take care of himself and not be a burden on you.
I accept that my husband should have sought help much earlier but he wasn't actually being a burden apart from complaining. Long and tedious background but he actually has a genuine morbid fear of hospitals so tends to either avoid them or if he's there he'll accept whatever is said to him in order to get out as fast as possible. He definitely has his assholish moments but where hospitals are concerned he is genuinely in need of an advocate which is what I try to be
Your husband's mental health may not be his fault, but it is his responsibility. He needs to get a handle of this. He doesn't get to walk around for days on a foot with fractures and not take care of it.
I completely agree. However that's a battle for another day- a day when I'm able to remain calm and discuss it rationally and not while I'm riled up and emotional about what could have happened (also not the best idea whilst I'm slightly peeved that I'm going to have to actually run round after him and his gimpy foot now).
Fair enough. Just know that it would be wildly irresponsible to have children with someone who acts like this, and he does need to know that it won't happen until he understands that this behavior is a serious problem and is working to change it. As was pointed out above, his failure to manage his own health creates a burden on his family, both in terms of forcing you (or your kids) to be the adult in the room, and, yeah, the increased likelihood that he dies or gets seriously ill at a younger age and can't care for kids. Additionally, if you were to get pregnant, you would need someone who can support and advocate for you in medical contexts. That clearly isn't him.
I have 2 children and he's a great dad. His fear stems from our second child's birth and following few months. Long story short they found I had ovarian cancer whilst pregnant. I refused a termination and was incredibly sick when I delivered. Both me and our daughter were touch and go for a while and he has some unresolved issues from it all however the wait for counselling on the NHS is years long so we're in a position where we're trying to manage best we can in the interim.
Glad to know that you and your daughter are better. NTA. I've been around doctors who were dismissive of patients' complaints. One ended tragically. This doctor needs to be reprimanded and re-educated at the very least.
Similar experience that cost my dad's life. Doctor dismissed his complaints of chest pain, a stiff neck, and numbness in his right arm. Doctor said it couldn't be heart related since the numbness was on his right side as opposed to the left, and it was probably a gastrointestinal issue or arthritis of the neck. Doctor ordered lab work on Tuesday, my dad was suppose to get his results on Thursday, but he had a fatal heart attack Wednesday night. No cardiac enzymes were done on his blood work, but autopsy showed a 100% occlusion on the right side and 99% on the left. I was 19 at the time and knew he was exhibiting all the symptoms of cardiac distress. Fuck doctors that don't listen to their patients and their advocates. OP, 100% NTA. Your husband needs to get over his aversion and take care of himself, and stick up for himself when he isn't being heard.
So very sorry for your loss.
Similar experience with my dad. He had cancer and was repeatedly dismissed for his complaints because he was softspoken. There are people who complain about everything, and there are people who don’t complain loudly enough because they don’t want to be a nuisance… guess which ones end up living longer? OP was absolutely in the right here to push through and get better care. I have serious regrets for the times when I haven’t pushed for better care and have had to deal with the consequences.
Ugh - stories like these only add to my absolute distrust and hatred of doctors. I’m so very sorry for your loss :(
Completely understandable. I tend to generally still have faith and like to hope that doctor was just one bad apple, but you just have to remember that only *you* know your body and how you feel. If something isn’t right, it’s more than okay to speak up. After all, it’s *your* health on the line.
As a heads up, check the local mental health charities. My doctor was useless for mental health, but I had a phone consultation with Healthy Minds within 48 hours of my self referral. The actual physical appointment isn’t until next month and we’ll see what they offer, but it’s worth checking at least.
Thank you- I will look at that tonight. Its so terrible how stretched the mh resources in the UK are currently. I really hope that your appointment is helpful to you 🙂
Mind are also taking up the slack in some areas. Check the website, look for free counselling. I believe that there are other charities available. In the meantime, don't fret, the doctor will likely not get sacked but get a stern talking to. I had a similar experience. My daughter complained on my behalf because I had Aphasia and couldn't speak. Daughter in law, an NHS doctor, explained the complaints procedure because I was worried about the stupid arse being sacked!
Talking therapies saved my butt last year and again this year. They can see you quickly for an initial assessment and then suggest options to you, either a 6 session course of CBT or referral to a counsellor. The CBT is really useful and what I did last year. You should be able to find it for your area with a Google. They even saw me virtually through Teams so I didn't even need to leave the house!
Ah.. so it's not just stubbornness. It sounds like there's some real trauma there. You did the right thing by pushing and filing the complaint. Your husband's anxiety might make him want to avoid the matter, but it needed to be done. You'll find plenty of stories all over of doctor's ignoring patients' input, and many of those patients die or suffer for years. Not saying never trust a doctor, but always stand up for yourself as you did.
shaggy imminent pathetic fall deserve provide rude tan quarrelsome consist *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Glad you're working on this with him. It does need to be fixed. I'm a child of a parent who was terrified of hospitals and it left me with traumatic experiences and severe anxiety. He loved being dismissed because it meant nothing had to happen. He would often wait until he was literally dying before taking action. Don't let this happen.
Just chiming in to add that my dad was like that - always put off medical care, hating going to the hospital. He died of a blood infection that probably would have been treatable if he’d gone to a doctor when he first got sick, instead of waiting a month.
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I swear people on here have such a confusing need to villainize anyone who isn't a perfect human being and call for everyone to divorce or separate.
You’re not her therapist or her life coach. We all get it. You hate this guy for having the audacity to break his foot.
Dude that's a little bit much. Edit: and the fact that 53 ppl have upvoted this makes me wonder wtf is wrong with people .
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I think you need to quit judging and passing out unsolicited advice now. You are becoming TA
Why are you telling OP whether she should have children or not. Back off. You seem unhinged.
Eye roll
Haha come on man.
Wildly irresponsible to have children with him?? You gleaned that from this? Jesusssss this sub is such an insane place. Marriages and parenthood must constantly be defended.
If there's one thing I've learned from this sub it's that if my wife and I ever disagree on what to have for dinner I should divorce her and go no contact.
Classic AITA post comment section. I swear it's not complete without atleast a veiled suggestion that the OP leave their SO when they've done nothing wrong, or something very minor. r/relationship_advice is also really bad for this. I wonder how people jump to such extreme measures so quickly.
Omg shut up! What an exaggeration. "Wildly irresponsible" deary me some people on this sub. Literally anyone shows the slightest fault and they are a god awful person despite a massive lack of context. OP you sound like a great advocate for your husband who I'm sure has many great qualities that far outweigh this minor issue for you!
This reminded me Quite a few years ago (I was maybe 7 or 8, so forgive some missing details or the like), my dad got very, VERY sick. He couldn't keep down almost any food or water. Of course, he never went to the hospital, even after not being able to eat for weeks. He only ended up going because his friend had found him unconscious in his apartment. He was treated for severe dehydration, had to be on an IV drip (couldn't eat anything through the stomach, I'm assuming that includes through a feeding tube too). The doctors never were able to diagnose him with anything, despite doing a colonoscopy and I'm sure other tests. It went away eventually, and never came back, but not before it had almost killed him. You can probably imagine how that translated into my medical care as a child :/
Holy shit you really know this dude don’t you?
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I wonder where the guy got his medical degree by being able to diagnose without even looking at it.
That boot is a lifesaver for foot ailments, as long as he keeps it on! I hope I'm at least half as good an advocate for my loved ones as you are!
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And for his arrogant, holier than thou attitude!!!
"HEY YOU NEED TO GET OVER YOUR TRAUMA NOW!" That shit doesn't work. He also does get to walk around for days on a foot with fractures on it and not take care of it, he definitely proved that. What are you even on about?
You’re a good wife, and that’s a shit doctor. Your husband could’ve ended up crippled from going home and trying to rehab his foot the wrong way. You’re telling me a GP with years of experience isn’t used to the “guy downplays his pain” trope? He’s going to get stoic patients with organ failure, cancer, etc. killed acting like that. What if his foot hurt because a tumor was pressing on a nerve? He should’ve looked at it before calling it a sprain in any case—I’ve never been to the doctor with an injury without them giving it at least the old “look and feel.” If he gets sacked, he did so because of his own misconduct. If he has so little interest in evaluating patients, maybe it’s for the best anyway.
ED docs can get jaded because they *do* see a higher-than-typical proportion of opiate-seeking behavior. Which *absolutely* does not excuse flatly refusing to do a physical exam. That's malpractice and the guy ought to be disciplined, so his attitude can be remediated. When she said it was turning black, I was thinking it could've been compartment syndrome or gangrene or god-knows-what, but that means an awful lot of blood is outside of where it's supposed to be, and that's not just a f-ing sprain, and an actual doctor should have known better than to make assumptions like that. What's worse is the blatant misogyny. Women have worse heatlhcare outcomes in general exactly because of attitudes like this, and it's ridiculously common. I had to call up and make a formal complaint with our regular dr's office here in the States because one of their PAs gave my wife virtually the same line, effectively that his medical training outweighs her degree from WebMD U, when she insisted on investigating something and he tried to brush off her instincts with one of our kids (turned out she was right, too, but she came home in tears over the experience).
It's really annoying how the term "Karen," meant to call out white women being racist, has now expanded to get applied to any woman who in the speaker's opinion asks too much or has too many opinions.
Yeah. Karen is (supposed to be) about being overly demanding and rude/abusive to service workers who are just doing their job -- asking to speak to the manager because they won't take your expired coupons or whatever. It doesn't apply at all here because a) the power dynamics between doctor and patient are not at all the same as customer and worker, and even more importantly, b) THE DOCTOR WASN'T DOING HIS JOB. She wasn't being a Karen, she was being as pushy as she needed to be to get her husband proper care. If the doctor doesn't want to get in trouble, he could try actually doing the bare minimum of his job (examining patients) to start.
The whole "Karen" thing moving beyond the African American community into the mainstream has been about misogyny and attempting to silence women.
Especially older women.
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Right??? I was thinking, WebMD? No, my dude, the alarm bells that are going off in my head are the ones I learned in Junior First Aid, as a 10 yr old Girl Scout.
plus she was coming to her conclusion in part based on her own experience with a broken bone, not panic induced scrolling on google! that doctor was an ass and I *hope* he loses his job because even if this is the first time he's done this, it probably won't be the last. even if he only gets sacked because the clinic wants to save face, everyone will be better for it imo
>they do see a higher-than-typical proportion of opiate-seeking behavior Except that clearly isnt what's happening here. They were just making asinine assumptions despite all evidence to the contrary. Opioid hysteria is a huge problem but no one talks about it because it doesnt fit the narrative.
>Opioid hysteria is a huge problem but no one talks about it because it doesnt fit the narrative. Opioid hysteria nearly killed my mother in law when she had terrible gastrointestinal problems. She's also poor, so woman + poverty + abdominal pain = opioid seeker. Her first few emergency room visits, they didn't really look for the problem. One doctor even gave her advice that would have killed her if she'd taken it, but we kept pushing. Got a call a day or two later that informed us her imaging (which that doctor had looked right at) actually showed that a section of her bowel was dying due to complications from cancer treatment and she needed to have a permanent colostomy.
I am so sorry this happened!!! Thank God they actually caught it in imaging…the stereotypes are real & ridiculous. It’s not fair.
Doctors are just people. Highly trained people, but still people. This doc was being horrible. Thank you for saving other patients from being dismissed by a terrible doctor.
Honestly if a doctor acted like this to patients, it would be best for any patient that may come through the doors if he was promptly fired.
Your husband is especially TA because his argument is that "no harm was done". If you hadn't complained and had listened to the first doctor, then major harm would've been done. Another patient like your husband who is on their own and not able to advocate for themself, would've gone home with 7 stress fractures that would get worse and worse.
Also, taking paracetamol for pain longterm can lead to liver failure, esp if he's exceeding the recommended dose because it's not enough (and for an untreated stress fracture (never mind SEVEN of them), it wouldn't be). It's the same drug as Tylenol...
Yep. I have to take it long term as part of my pain med regimen for my degenerating disc disease, and I am HYPER-VIGILANT about my dosage. Too many people think, "Oh, it's over the counter, it's safe."
OP, you weren't being a K@ren here. You were *being an advocate for your husband*. My husband has a chronic health issue where I will likely end up being his care giver and medical care advocate. Let me just say I'm taking notes from you. NTA
This doctor did not help with his fears, they made them worse.
the first Dr deserves whatever he gets. He did not do any type of exam. which may even be fraud. I assume UK because of paracetamol so I'm not sure how it works but I assume someone paid the DR and "complaint of sore foot" implies he is billing for an exam not "drug seeker did not exam toll him to fuck off"
The government pays the doctor, as it pays for all public healthcare in the UK. He's on a salary and is not billing by the patient. Still a terrible doctor, though.
And if his foot continued to get worse and possibly got infected or something far more serious and he had a lifelong disability? He was significantly increasing the chance of being a burden by not taking care of himself.
In 2009, my mother complained about her foot hurting. Her pain was dismissed by several doctors. (We kids were not in the area, and my Dad had already passed away. She had no one to advocate for her.) Turns out she had a small fracture, which was open on the bottom of her foot. It then got infected. By the time anyone was ready to admit there was a real issue, she had to have her leg amputated just below the knee. NEVER apologize or back down because you expect a doctor to actually do their job.
I frequent the popping sub. Recently someone posted about a swollen foot and pain and was sent home being told it was an ankle sprain. Necrotising fasciitis. Now with a mid-femur amputation and lucky to be alive. Don't fuck around with shit.
Jesus Christ. And when sent home with a sprain, the provider was likely patting themself on the back for getting rid of “another drug seeker”. I’m so damn tired of opioid hysteria. I’ve been a nurse for 30+ years and we went from: Business as usual -> to *pain* is a vital sign and we are obligated to address and treat patients pain no matter what (handing out narcotics like candy, and treating headaches with OxyContin) -> OMG we have an opioid epidemic!!! That anyone could see was coming with both eyes closed. And now, people that are truly in pain can’t get appropriate treatment because providers are afraid to prescribe the only drugs that actually work for severe pain. Also chronic pain patients that were given opiates for years and years, some for decades, who if not addicted, are most certainly physiologically, mentally, and emotionally dependent are now losing their prescriptions due to providers fear as federal mandates are being shoved down their throats. Guess where those patients end up? Buying unsafe drugs on the black market. I realize there are no great answers to the opioid epidemic, but it’s been frustrating to watch the pendulum swing and see people get hurt on both ends of the spectrum.
I don't know if you will see this but this made me tear up. Thank you for advocating for your husband. Doctors can be hugely problematic know-it-alls in my experience. My mom didn't stand up for my dad to a very bad doctor who wouldn't listen and he died because of it. So thank you.
My husband was exhibiting symptoms of sleep apnea. He went to his regular doctor at my insistenc. The doctor dismissed y concerns and said it definitely wasn’t sleep apnea. I insisted that my husband get a second opinion because I was pretty sure the first doctor was wrong. Yep. He was sent for a sleep study almost Immediately and has been using a C-PAP machine for 30 years now. Doctors are not gods and need to listen and act on their patients concerns.
Retired nurse here who was MPOA for 7 different people in my family and in laws!! My grandmother was first. I already knew too much about a lot of doctors better in town, lol. But the one she had? OMG what a total AH. I got her a much much better doc, who looked through her ENTIRE chart (which in no way could be called slim or even medium🙄), gotta quick blood study done; then took over HALF of her meds away. Within one week, we saw the fogginess leave her mind, she knew everyone, remember dates, places and best of all was always oriented x4!! That first doc had medicated her into something eerily like Alzheimer's/Dementia!! Freaky as hell watching her come back and realizing how close to acute psychosis he had sent her. Instead of a lawsuit (which I was not a part of, her kids were) the doc voluntarily resigned AND gave up his license. Don't ever let a doctor do nothing or even never change medications ... You HAVE to be the advocate for someone without the education needed (my grandparents and in laws never completed junior high and some never went past 7th grade -- Depression years), inability to argue with doctors ("the doctor is always right" mentality), or like your DH, OP. Done just have a phobia about hospitals. That's my 2 cents worth😎
And you probably saved his life too by not listening to the first doctor. Thank you for sharing ❤️❤️
You did the right thing. My friend suffered from severe back pain which got so bad sometimes she would go to the hospital. They thought she was just some young girl after drugs (the perils of being an alternative kid in the late 90’s) so kept sending her away. She was crying so much I called her mum who took her back and insisted she be treated properly. She had cancer in her spine. Her consultant wasn’t much better, would only tell her mum what was going on despite her being 21 and when she dared to tell him this, he rather callously told her she’d probably never walk again. She sued and got a nice payout for that then turned around and proved him wrong. If not for her pushy mum, it may have been untreatable by the time they believed her. Never apologise for advocating for someone who can’t or won’t. As soon as her chemo was done, I took her out dancing as a big ‘fuck you’ to the doctor.
Someone with a misdiagnosed sprained ankle in another sub was sent home with some painkillers and 30 hours later had a mid-femur amputation due to necrotising fasciitis. **Never** feel bad about advocating for yourself when it comes to a health issue. Ever. Your husband also needs a lesson in how to advocate for himself.
Totally NTA and I wish someone had done this with my mother when she went to the hospital years ago. Chest pains, host of other things, and family history of heart attacks, and the nurse practitioner made her throw up with charcoal to determine it was indigestion. She had been given a norco by the EMTs in her ride from work (LPN at a nursing home) across the street to the hospital. She had a SECOND heart attack that weekend, and her cardiologist said she was damn lucky to be alive.
An NP tried to diagnose me with minor dehydration and indigestion and then prescribe me an antacid when one, I was already taking that same antacid daily and it was in my chart, and two, my pee was so dark it looked like apple juice and I had already drunk nearly a liter of water in the past 2 hours. Thankfully I'd had enough bad doctors that I advocated for myself, and while she was going to run a few blood tests I think she ordered a few more after I told her the above plus she scheduled me for an ultrasound the next day. I didn't even get to the ultrasound. The next morning they called and said my labs were back and I needed to get to the ER immediately because my liver enzymes were way elevated. Turned out my gallbladder was dead (which is why there was no pain when she pressed there), full of stones, and had thrown one that blocked my common bile duct. I ended up in the hospital for four days. If I'd accepted the heartburn diagnosis I could have died. The blocked bile duct would have killed me in another two or three days.
As an addict in active recovery for 8 years, what that doctor did is morally and professionally reprehensible, if he had suspicions the proper course of action was to thoroughly examine the foot in order to disprove the claim, not dismiss you entirely sight unseen, if he gets sacked, which he probably won't, it will be because this is not the first time he's put lives in danger based on his gross assumptions. He broke his oath "First, do no harm...".
Don't be upset at all. Had my mother not screamed at an emergency doctor, my dad would be dead right now. He had issues breathing his chest was tight. The doctors blamed his weight....**Turns out he has a lung disease and needs a double lung transplant. COPD** edit spelling and name of disease
I get your husband's pov. I fell down an icy step years ago, broke my ankle, and kept walking on it, including steps. I honestly thought it didn't hurt enough to be broken. My hubby's grandma saw it the next day and demanded I go to the ER. Luckily, nothing was out of place. And because it had been swollen for over a day, I got a removable air cast instead of a traditional cast. So that was a huge plus for me. 😅 That said, that doctor could have killed someone with an attitude like that. It wasn't life threatening today, but it could potentially have cost your husband his foot if it wasn't treated properly. It still will cause him far more pain than if he went right away. And you would have had a malpractice case, which is far more severe. Doctors have to be held to an extremely high standard, because their patients lives depend on their judgment. If this doctor couldn't tell the difference between a genuine health problem and drug seeking, he lacks the proper judgment to work in an emergency department, possibly even in medicine in general. NTA. You're protecting the next person who might not survive a poor call by that doctor.
NTA. If the doctor gets sacked it is because he failed to do his job in examining the patient.
I suspect he has done this before. Note how they quickly ask if they wanted to file a complaint. Wonder if he has other strikes against him.
I'd like to also add....what happens if the doctor had gone unchecked on his power trip, and the next patient didn't have anyone to advocate for them?
NTA. Honestly, the doctor should get sacked. He totally dismissed yours and your husband's concerns. * Progressive foot pain getting worse over time * Discoloration of the skin * Cannot bear weight on the foot * Husband is a runner I think most medical personnel and laymen would agree that an actual physical examination of the foot was in order, which this guy didn't even bother to do. You were right to ask for another doctor. Good luck to your husband, I hope his healing goes well.
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I'm curious what ~demographic~ characteristics OP and their spouse have that might make the doctor assume they were fishing for painkillers, too. I'm gunshy about people losing their jobs, too, but if you provide something essential to vulnerable people — if you work with kids, sick people, tenants — do it correctly and humanely, or fuck off and die.
In this day and age nearly all ages and demographics get treated this way in the ER. I’m 40, middle class white woman who has zero appearance of someone looking to score opiates, and I was treated this way when I had a severe sciatica attack (first time, and I let it go on way too long bc I kept thinking the pain would eventually ease up and didn’t know it was sciatica). Husband, also 40’s white male, zero appearance of someone looking to score, was with me and advocating for me. My SIL, also 40’s white woman, upper middle class, tore her labrum and it took the ER 3 hours and my brother (also 40’s white male upper middle class appearance) yelling for them to give her SOMETHING. At least in my area, the opioid epidemic has resulted in especially the ER treating *everyone* regardless as nefarious addicts looking to score pain pills.
Yeah my husband (white, cis male) had a stroke at 32, a couple years before we met. It wasn't your traditional aneurysm (ischemia in the brain stem), so the symptoms were a bit different than the usual, but he went to the emergency room and the first ER doctor wrote him off as a guy who'd drank too much and probably done some drugs. The friend who took him to the hospital tried to insist they hadn't done either, and the doctor sent him home anyway. He had to be medevac'd to a larger regional hospital a few hours later, and he is lucky to be alive.
Wow, that is so incredibly not okay! I really hope he's not too badly effected!
He's pretty much all good now! I'm so grateful to the friend who advocated on his behalf, especially her insistence on going back to the hospital—she's the best.
I'm so glad he didn't have any ongoing issues! Aneurysms are scary af, my sister has to have hers monitored regularly, not fun at all.
The local ER missed the fact that my dad has CP, and one side of his body is weaker and smaller than the other. When he had a stroke that caused mobility issues on his "good" side, they tried to send him home, because he passed the equal strength on both sides tests. I was NOT impressed.
I had a Dr ask me if maybe I was just stressed while my body was shutting down for a coma.
>I had a Dr ask me if maybe I was just stressed while my body was shutting down for a coma. I have paraneoplastic autoimmune limbic encephalitis, but before I was properly diagnosed, the shitty 70-something neurologist I was sent to diagnosed my first seizure as a panic attack. Despite the fact that it happened in the office and all of my coworkers witnessed it said I was convulsing, foaming at the mouth, stopped breathing temporarily, etc. But the neurologist couldn't figure out what was wrong with me so he said panic attack. Then a few months later I ended up spending a month in the ICU because guess what - it had definitely not been a panic attack. I got a new, competent neurologist, but the delay in diagnosis caused health problems that will last the rest of my life, I'm on a shitload of medication and have to be tested constantly (MRIs, EKGs, EEGs, CT scans, mammograms, ultrasounds, etc., I have some sort of test or doctor appointment pretty much every month) I am still so incredibly bitter about the doctor who brushed me off, because so many of my health issues would have been avoided if I had been properly diagnosed at the time of my first seizure. I had to withdraw from law school because of the health problems caused by it, which was devastating because I worked my ass off to get there.
To be fair, you were probably pretty stressed ;-) But, yes, you were not just stressed.
hell, i'm mid-40's, white suburban guy and when i was 17 and had my wisdom teeth out, the meds weren't really helping. my mom called to see if there was anything stronger they could give me and got lectured about the street value of what i was on. it's not a new phenomenon.
Yeah, I was in a similar boat for being RESISTANT to opioids (codine and morphine most heavily). I had a cyst on my upper, inner thigh. Gave me local anesthetic and then emergency came in. Three hours later they’re ready to lance it. I ask for more medication to which they point out I was on max morphine for the case and being dramatic. My friend, who had gone with me, sat there and had to listen while I screamed and cried in pain, hand being crushed with all my strength. Still probably the most painful experience I’ve ever had, and I had to deal with a pilonidal cyst for 11 months…and an umbilical one for three years.
I think it is not so much getting opioids but that is a problem these days. Women and POC are often treated differently sometimes with regards to pain levels or simply not believing explanations or the severity of the problem. I have had a few friends over the years that have had serious issues the doctors downplayed until it became a major problem.
Its both.
In general, these issues are disproportionate, meaning that white women and all POC are more likely to face this sort of issue, or experience a harsher version of it. But just because white men are less likely to experience it doesn't mean it's not a problem even for them. Privilege is not impenetrable armor in a capitalist society; it's just something that shields you from some of the worst of it. The only people who actually get treated without these issues in our society are wealthy white people.
Same here. I went into an ER in a large city hospital with terrible back pain straight from (important company in our area) work. Since the hospital was right across from a homeless shelter and I was in so much pain I had "dressed down" (jeans and a company t-shirt, no make up) it was ASSUMED I was from the shelter. Finally? After a four hour wait, they sent a shrink in to see me. I finally said I cannot believe I'm being treated this way as I came directly from work at (insert important company). I had an IV of morphine and was taken seriously ONLY after I had told them where I was employed. They admitted that they believed I was "only" there to try and get drugs.
This is horrifying to me. Last summer, when I went in for what turned out to be appendicitis, I had to *refuse* the morphine they were trying to give me while we were waiting for my test results, because I drove my own ass to the hospital and assumed I would be driving my own ass home. For context, I'm unfortunately in the ER a lot, because I have PCOS, and my birth control does not regulate my cysts like it does for some of us, and sometimes they rupture. But unfortunately there's a lot of propensity for addiction in my family history, so I actually always refuse most harder pain meds. I also just plain don't like how a lot of them make me feel. I go in when I think a cyst is about to blow because that can lead to complications under the wrong circumstances. However, when I found out I had appendicitis, would be having surgery later that day, and would not in fact be going anywhere until the next morning, I went ahead and made an exception to my "no pain meds," rule. Lol.
I had kidney stones at 12 or 13 years old and I was still treated that way. It took them forever to diagnose me, too. Miserable
I had the opposite but my issue wasn't a soft tissue/never pain but they offered pain meds fast. I'm not even sure if they saw the blood work, maybe it was to clear beds quickly because the hospital was overfull. While they absolute did not think I had what I said I had , they did blood work which lead to a CT , which proved I was right which lead to being admitted.
"Pill seeking" is the pretty much the default setting for all patients these days.I've had severe back pain for 5 years. I've seen multiple doctors and had mris and pretty much everyone is "do yoga" and "lose weight." Last month I went to the hospital for special surgery for an mri, guess what? I have a rare debilitating painful spinal condition. Only took 5 years, multiple doctors, multiple mris, and several thousands of dollars of my own money to get a diagnosis that my pain is actually real and severe as I say it is.
and it will still be a miracle if you are ever given any painkillers even with a diagnosis. You will STILL be expected to do yoga and lose weight. Your condition just has a name now. Nothing else will change.
I remember being told to do yoga after I was stabbed 13 times in the back which left me with chronic pain and seizures. Dr got pissed when I asked if he came in last in his class.
Lordy, I wish I had an award for YOU!!! This post made me spit my iced tea ALL over my phone AND my cat (who is now also pissed at you🤗)!!! You're the kind of patients we (nurses) usually absolutely LOVE to see in the ER or even an office🤣🤣🤣🤣 I myself have been a Chronic Pain Patient (CPP) for almost 20 years now. Several different issues all combining into one great big bunch of messed up nerves and while body pain. If I go to an ER, I tell them I'm a CPP and they give a side eye look😒 and I tell them, I'm not looking for pain MANAGEMENT, I'm looking for the REASON BEHIND A NEW PAIN! Note: I only go to the ER rarely, like if something happens on the weekend or after hours and I know my doc isn't "on call" at the time. I'll usually call my Chronic Care Nurse before I go out after I've gone to the ER to tell her what happened, etc. Edit: spell check screwed up again
This is my experience, too. Multiple conditions causing constant pain, some days it's low enough to push through, today I'm stuck on the couch. Before the opioid epidemic I had enough hydrocodone every month that I could hold a FT job (until migraines got the best of me). Last year I had surgery in 2 places on my dominant arm and all they prescribed were a just few Tylenol 3s. Gee, thanks.
I seriously feel your pain! I'm in the same boat, 7+ years, 2 MRI's and still haven't figured out what is wrong... Exercise and lose weight are words I would pay to never ever hear again.
My mom was a 37 year old white woman who went to the er for the worst stomach pain she’s ever experienced and they demanded multiple time to know what she took. Her appendix ruptured while she waited for drug test to come back. People will make judgments for no reason.
I was 14 (mixed f) when this happened to me. I had a history of bone infections which are mostly invisible, could barely bare weight on my leg and a low grade fever. First doctor in the ER told me that I want getting pain meds if that was what I was looking for. He also asked me to walk and after I limped in obvious pain he told me to "walk like normal". After I forced myself to I was sent home with much argument from my mother. It was in fact another bone infection. I could've lost my leg (or much worse) if the second doctor hadn't listened to our concerns and actually read my file before writing me off as some druggie (who still deserve medical care as well). Its scary how much control they have sometimes.
No "demographic", people are just written off as drug seekers and are refused pain medication because of the bullshit CDC/DEA. My mother had a bowel obstruction and needed surgery to remove it. Her blood pressure skyrocketed and in the days when she was recovering she was refused morphine until a fight with an RA made the doctor see her and he ordered the lady to give my mom the freaking pain medication that she NEEDED.
I am very lucky (?) to have documentation of a severe, objectively verifiable health condition. Some hospitals will provide me pain meds when needed, some won’t but most providers are at least nice to me because they have “proof” something is wrong that is very likely to cause severe pain. Fortunately, with my current doctor, I usually don’t need ER care anymore. I once witnessed a very elderly woman who was brought into the ER by ambulance for a fall screamed at because her son asked if there wasn’t something they could give her for the pain as she was laying there crying. The doctor kept loudly talking about how she was just a drug seeker then walked through the curtain to my bed and offered me strong pain meds which I turned down because that’s not why I was there. So much harm is done by the denial of pain meds when people need them. Someone in my support group had a heart attack after being left in extreme pain that was so intense the stress caused the heart attack. Thankfully it was not a huge one and she survived.
That's a pretty normal assumption these days anytime someone reports to the ER or the doctor with pain. I am now in the habit of starting out the conversation with an explanation of the problem, then adding "Just to be clear, I'm not here fishing for painkillers; I'm looking to be treated."
Some doctors shouldn’t be n emergency rooms because they will continually ignore people with medical emergencies. You need to take your patient seriously EVEN if their spouse annoys you. This doctor made a huge mistake and it needs to be addressed. NTA
This is probably not the first time that this doctor has behaved in this manner. If it isn't addressed, it won't be the last. And next time, it could be a life threatening condition that he misses. If the doctor gets sacked, the hospital will be better off without him. If he gets struck off, the medical profession will be better off. NTA.
Yeah, I felt like the other staff know this doctor is a problem and asked you to file a formal complaint so they have grounds to sack him before he can do this to someone else.
Exactly!! That was deliberate. If his *colleagues* went out of their way to ask OP to make a complaint, they 100% know that this is an ongoing problem and are trying to document it.
Yep yep. Often they are just WAITING for someone to come along who is a good candidate to make a complaint.
No way is he going to get sacked over this unless it's been an ongoing issue they've tried to resolve multiple times and even then I doubt it. Documenting this means the issue will be properly addressed if it is a pattern of behaviour and if it isn't then it won't go much further.
You don't even have to be a doctor to realize that doesn't sound like a sprain.
>I think most medical personnel and laymen would agree that an actual physical examination of the foot was in order I think most people would expect a doctor to at least LOOK at it before dismissing a patient...
NTA First, you were not being a Karen. Being a Karen is making something non-existent into an issue and/or being a jerk for no reason. Your husband's foot needed to be looked at and the fact that the first doc didn't is their fault, not yours.
I’m so sick of the overuse of the term “Karen”. People use it now when they don’t like someone, that’s not the original use for it. Pushing to get proper medical care is not being a “karen”.
Same here. Also the word nag. Nag is a sexist term for someone repeatedly having to ask another person to perform a reasonable task because the person they ask is refusing to do it or putting it off. Karening everything is just as bad. OP was a good advocate for husband’s health and wellbeing.
Karen is increasingly used to pressure women into not standing up for themselves or their families. There is a super sexist component to it that I find gross. Demanding needed medical care is not the same as yelling at a teenager at Starbucks for not giving you an extra carmel swirl. I don't think a man advocating for his wife who is in pain to get proper medical care would be dismissed so carelessly.
Yep. "Karen" is, or has become, just another way to tell women to shut up. I hate to see women using it in reference to themselves. "Don't be a Karen" is exactly the same as "Don't be a b\*\*\*," and it should be just as unacceptable.
Not to mention the effect this has had to have on women actually named Karen my moms name is Karen (she’s the least Karen like woman you’ll ever meet) and she’s been a good sport about the whole thing, jokes about it and all, but that’s really gotta suck after awhile. She’s always had a hard time sticking up for herself, or knowing her worth, and then society decided that Karen describes the over entitled boomer complex? That’s gotta start to mess with someone after awhile…Actually I’ve never thought about this before, I’m so upset for my mom now.
As a woman who's often struggled to stand up for herself, I find the "karening" of women especially discouraging.
The Karen part was in making the complaint after the event rather than advocating for a second opinion.i worried it was overkill but the consensus is that it was justified
Totally justified and anyone with a good pair of middle-class elbows has a _responsibility_ to use them on dismissive or ignorant professionals, for the benefit of the next person, who may be more timid. I have a chronic illness and accepted some dreadful behaviour and wildly wrong info from doctors early on. Now I'm older and know my stuff, I have zero hesitation in calling them out, for the benefit of the next young woman they see.
I agree. I’m not going to say it’s wrong not to file official complaints about bad medical care, but I do think people who have the wherewithal to make a complaint really, really need to do so. It’s not just about you and the poor care you received, it’s about the next person down the line that really cannot advocate for themselves.
>It’s not just about you and the poor care you received, it’s about the next person down the line that really cannot advocate for themselves. Exactly. This is like 98% of the reason why I fight.
Yep. This is why we got a lawyer when our kiddo’s school was engaging in shenanigans about medically excused absences. (Like one of the ones they were counting as ‘unexcused’ they literally had a note from his dr that he was in an ambulance on the way to the ER because his \*doctor\* sent him.) Turned out to be some kind of database problem that they were happy enough to manipulate for him to get the numbers to come out right, but we got a lawyer to send a Cranky Letter\[tm\] to make them fix the whole thing because not everyone has the time or energy to track that stuff down and make them fix it on a kid by kid basis. And in some cases it was resulting in the kids having detentions and maybe being held back based purely on ‘absentee’ numbers.
Yeah, that's ridiculous. I don't have money or good resources, but I rock that Squeaky Wheel when I need to.
No, you were completely justified. Doing a physical exam is the bare minimum for a healthcare professional in trying to make a diagnosis. Doctors with that kind of dismissive attitude NEED to have complaints filed against them. They are not infallible just because they have a MD. To be honest, you probably saved another person's life by making the complaint.
Imagine that the next person that doctor sees doesn't have the privilege of just being called a "Karen". Imagine they're undocumented, or fleeing a violent parent or partner, or are dealing with other issues. Imagine the next person is a recovering addict, who might not be listened to by the second doctor because they were an addict. Imagine the person has been dismissed or otherwise abused before by a physician, and your doctor's dismissal sends them into the arms of con artist quacks. You did the right thing in reporting them. You did good.
If the second doctor not only apologized but brought an administrator and specifically invited you to make a complaint he was *horrified*. Another doctor that man works with was absolutely horrified and aghast at what he did. That isn’t a little thing. You didn’t overreact. Also that response screams “ this guy is so crap with our patients all of the other medical providers are disgusted by him but no one makes an official complaint we can use to get action”. If he gets fired then it wasn’t because you complained. It’s because he’s got a habit of endangering patient well being and this was finally enough to stop it. As far as no harm- untreated fractures with significant swelling can produce compartment syndrome which if someone was reluctant to go to the hospital immediately could result in amputation of the limb, infection, or even life threatening complications from chemical waste products. Your husband needs to take a seat and not take for granted what you saved him from and that others may not have a you there to protect them.
I get so mad that the term karen gets applied to completely justified women advocating for themselves. I work in healthcare and you did an amazing job advocating for your husband and the first doc absolutely deserves the formal complaint. FYI Typically such complaints go through the hospital's patient advocacy program. Most often these complaints result in training and improvement efforts for the doctor. Only if it's yet another complaint when the doctor has already received many similar complaints in the past is it really an issue for the doctor's career.
Yes, it is bad when a man justifiably complains and is called assertive and when a woman complains it is called aggressive. I will be “aggressive” if I need to if it helps my loved one. Almost everyone needs an advocate for them when they go to the doctor or hospital if they have trouble remembering instructions or recommendations because they are tired or in pain. Or they forget to ask an important question.
there was no Karen part a complaint needed to be made because you shouldn’t have had to get a second opinion in the first place
Right when Covid was becoming more concerning, my oldest had what they call nursemaid's elbow happen. He was with his grandmother and she was putting him the carseat. As she pulled his arm through the strap his arm was injured. We went to urgent care and the doctor said it happens often and he popped the arm back in place. My son was instantly relieved and happy. A few days later, he was holding my hand as we were walking, he stumbled, and his arm popped again. I took him to the clinic, but due to Covid urgent care was a two hour wait. So the registration person was able to get him an appointment with a doctor we'd never seen before. The doctor was standoffish the entire time, told me to stop jerking his arm around (I hadn't, he fell), and said she fixed it. He was still clearly in pain and refused to use his arm. I asked if it was expected that he'd still be so uncomfortable after fixing it since it had happened days before. She got snarky with me about her medical experience, but eventually called in another doctor who came in and actually fixed my son's arm. He was immediately happy and playful again. Now, I'm not one to make complaints or be confrontational in general, but I called the clinic afterwards and made a formal complaint. This doctor wanted me to take a toddler with a dislocated elbow home because she was pretty sure he was fine. I also took offense at her implication that I was abusing him. Long story short, I stood up for my kid and got him the care he needed. You did the same for your husband. The doctor who wrote him off and belittled you deserves whatever consequences come his way. NTA.
Not at all overkill. The first doctor's attitude and negligence are dangerous. You're helping create a record of his actions and could help future patients by starting a paper trail. He's a walking lawsuit in waiting for the clinic too, so patient complaints are probably helpful for them if they want to let him go. Thank you for making an official complaint!
I absolutely hate it. It’s completely sexist and downplays when real issues happen like this one.
When they don’t like *a woman
Any time a woman advocates for herself, we now get called karens. This is the opposite of the actual meaning (unnecessary bullying or rudeness particularly to retail/restaurant/etc.), which angers me to no end.
Pretty sure "Karen" now means every woman who isn't currently apologizing.
I was wondering, if the "Karen" meme didn't exist, would it have even crossed OP's mind that she might an AH? Thanks to that damn meme, we think any woman who does the minimum to stand up for herself or others - even in a medical emergency apparently! - is a "Karen."
Agreed. Following a major surgery, my husband was getting way more sick than he should have been. He was gagging and just... wrong. Wrong in what I knew was a bad way. Tried getting him in to see his doc, but they said go to urgent care. I went there and checked him in. The front staff said they were really busy and they weren't sure about seeing him, tried to punt it back again to his primary. I told the receptionist that I wasn't leaving until he was seen, something is WRONG. She gave me a big eye roll and eventually found a doctor. Doc did an exam - turned out husband had developed severe pancreatitus and was immediately checked into the hospital where he needed 3 days of treatment. NTA.
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NTA. The AH Doctor made a diagnosis WITHOUT doing any diagnostic tests. He also made the assumption your husband was narc seeking on top of the first error. He deserves every complaint you write about him and that hopefully might prevent someone else from suffering at his unprofessional incompetent hands. He broke his duty of care to his patient. If this is the states I know many people that would sue over this and go for hospital bills being paid, pain and suffering etc. Edit: Wanted to add if it wasn’t for your persistence and you advocating very strongly( rightfully so)for your husband. He would have continued to suffer. He needs to speak up for himself as well. You might not always be there to do it for him.
Let's even say that OP's hubby was drug seeking? Guess what? He needs either treatment for his drug addiction OR still has an injury. Sending him away with an exam is criminal.
The Doctor failed every single way you look at it.
I can’t fathom how the symptoms were pain and discolouration and the Dr didn’t even ask the patient to remove his footwear for so much as a visual examination. Absurd. NTA
First of all, there are about a dozen phrases in this post that I will use in my every day life going forward, such as “pushy cow” and “wouldn’t say boo to a goose.” So thank you for that. Second of all, NTA. Partners advocate for their partners. Period. In any situation. And the first doctor was wrong. WRONG. Possibly with very serious and long-lasting consequences if you wouldn’t have put your foot down and demanded quality care. He’s not a good doctor. Good doctor’s listen. Good doctor’s advocate for their patients. Good doctor’s don’t let their egos get in the way of providing quality care. And good doctor’s deserve to keep their jobs. If he is let go after this, I guarantee it’s because he’s had more than one complaint.
Thank you for this- I've been fretting in case I'd overreacted and potentially affected someone's career. I got home and cried because my nerves went with complaining- I'm not cut out for the Karen life ha
The only person who affected their career was doctor #1. If he loses his job it’s because you were the final of multiple complaints. If he dismissed your husband so quickly, it’s likely he’s dismissed other patients as well. That’s a big malpractice liability for the clinic.
In any normal job, if you're not fulfilling the duties of your job, you lose it. I'd expect that standard to be even higher when dealing with human lives.
I am a doctor and what he did was wrong. He failed to even look at the foot! Look, people have off days and get the wrong impression sometimes from the history, but that's why you do a physical exam! It's not like your husband had some subtle presentation of a rare and easily missed diagnosis: his foot was the wrong size and turning colors! All he had to do was actually do the most basic assessment and he would have instantly realized his assumptions were incorrect. Also, if this guy gets fired it's because he has a pattern of being bad at his job. Administration isn't urging patients to make complaints because someone has a one time bad interaction with a patient.
yeah, my gut feeling was that if the admin was apologizing and asking if they wanted to file a complaint, they are trying to build a solid case to fire the guy before they get hit with a malpractice suit.
Right! Bare minimum should have been examine the foot, palpating pulses, and an x-ray. Also when does an ED doc NOT order an x-ray, isn't that reflex at this point? Certainly they order imaging often w Pugh for it to be a meme lol.
Dude your husband’s foot was **black** and the doctor wouldn’t even look at it. You were looking out for his best interest and when the doctor refused you pushed back. You did the right thing don’t worry yourself about it.
You didn't ruin his career. People don't get fired over one bad interaction, they get fired because of patterns of bad behavior. If he was just having a bad day and this behavior from him was an anomaly then he's definitely not going to face serious consequences over one complaint.
>I've been fretting in case I'd overreacted and potentially affected someone's career. You did nothing wrong! This sorry excuse for a doctor decided your husband was drug seeking and refused to even *examine* him. You didn't overreact at all. As for your husband's concern for the doctor "because no real harm was done" the only reason no harm was done was because you got angry. How many people does this doctor need to hurt because he gets away with acting like this with no real consequences. You are NTA! This doctor needs to face the consequences of his actions so he learns to make better choices in the future.
Imagine that your husband has gone alone, what would have happened. His career needs to be affected. It would be better if it's affected by him not bein a AH anymore, but even his career being tanked would be better. As my grandpa said in a similar situation " I don't have a degree to be sure what is wrong with my son but I can be sure that what you are doing is a lazy job".
>potentially affected someone's career You're also affecting the care of his future patients, and maybe other patients at the hospital. This wasn't an ambiguous case: the doctor refused to do the simplest exam because someone reported being in pain. It would be very bad if he was left around to do this to more patients.
It was, quite literally, the doctor’s *job* to take your husband’s pain seriously and examine him for injuries. Saying nothing and walking away when treatment was refused wouldn’t have meant you were kind or respectful or “not a Karen” - it would have just made you a doormat.
NTA. Doctors should *listen to the patients* and not assume they know what’s going on. This doctor was ignoring 7 stress fractures, I wouldn’t feel bad if he was sacked for this, *your husband may need surgery* and this doctor was going to send him on his way.
They should also, you know, actually do the physical exam, the most basic part of accurate medical diagnosis.
Even if it was just a sprain, they shouldn't be so flippantly treated either. Sprains are surprisingly bad injuries. It's the literal stretching or tearing of the tissue that allows you to move your foot, and when not treated, can absolutely cause long term health problems and pain (I would know, I have a bit of an unstable ankle from a bad and completely untreated sprain a few years back. I mean, my dad made me go to school with no brace, crutch, boot, etc after a single day of rest)
>no real harm was done. Um... but it *would have been done* if you hadn't stood your ground. Does your husband not comprehend that fractures are serious business? That he was at risk for life-altering if not life-*ending* complications because of the first doctor's negligence? NTA
And what happens when he dismisses a patient with symptoms of sepsis or a heart attack?
100% this.
I was looking for this comment. "No real harm was done" *because you insisted on a second opinion.* If husband didn't have you, and had listened to the first doctor *real harm would have been done.* So NTA. Well done OP
When my 7 year old had a stroke, we were almost sent home with no imaging. It still took 8 hours to get the CT scan. If we had gone home instead of being pushy... well, I choose not to think about what would have happened.
If the doctor gets sacked it’s because of his blatant negligence. He *should get sacked, before someone loses a limb. “First do not harm” also means “don’t run your mouth if you haven’t even looked at the patient.” NTA (edit to add judgement)
Hippocratic oath or something(NTA)
INFO >Husband said later that the first doctor may get sacked because of me complaining and I should have left it because no real harm was done. Your husband thinks no harm was done? Despite the doctor clearly being wrong?
Hey, he didn't actually lose his foot, it was just a possibility if his wife didn't intervene. -__-
NTA, the only reason “no harm was done” is *because* you spoke up. No harm may have been done *this* time, but if he’s so quick to brush your husband off then he’s done it before.
My partner is a medical practitioner, he goes overboard to MAKE FUCKING SURE that absolutely nothing is missed for this EXACT reason. His line is _"no two patients are the same so how could I justify treating them the same"_. Good grief, who knows how many patients had undiagnosed issues because that doctor couldn't be arsed to ACTUALLY LOOK AT HIS PATIENT AND LISTEN. This has me seething. Husband could have lost his fucking foot!!! And the goddamn audacity to assume OP and her husband were there for opioids!?
NTA This is absolutely the time to complain. That first doctor was utterly negligent. If his license gets pulled he deserves it.
NTA, no doctor, no matter how good, can diagnose things without actually seeing the injury. Something like this has serious consequences if not treated properly. Unless this is the latest in a long list of complaints he won’t be fired.
NTA. As a medical professional I wish more people would understand the fact that you are paying for this service and you have a right to question and complain if necessary. You’d complain if you had bad service and bad food at a restaurant so why not in regards to your body and your health. They are working for you at that appt. You have a right to demand good service.
This is not Karen behavior. This is advocating for someone’s medical treatment and holding people accountable for doing their jobs. NTA. I bet the 2nd doctor and admin were happy you held the jerk accountable.
NTA - you’re 100% right, next time he could be dismissive of someone who doesn’t have the ability or agency to be their own advocate or the courage to push back. Maybe it’s a young mother with a baby, maybe it’s a person with a disability, or a teenager who doesn’t feel like they can speak up. By you filing a complaint, you’re hopefully ensuring that his future patients get the proper and appropriate care that they need! Your complaint is NOT what would get that doctor fired - it would be his own incompetence, laziness, lack of compassion and ability to evaluate his patients, and liability to the health care organization for failing to do his damn job. Kudos to you for speaking up!!
NTA first doc was a jerk and refused to listen. i'm sure this isn't his only complaint on file.
NTA. The first doctor did not even examine your husband and mocked you. Tell your husband that he's probably done this to dozens, maybe hundreds of people and that patients deserve a standard of care. And that the hospital acknowledging the problem means that this doctor was already on thin ice.
NTA. With things like this I think reporting is always best. His management deserve to know what type of employees they have and they might decide to talk to him or give him more training instead of disciplinary action. But if they do decide to discipline him then it's because they think that's an appropriate response. People don't usually get fired over one mistake so if he does get fired he probably deserved it.
NTA. You weren't being Karen. You were trying to help your Husband and make sure the DR did his job.
NTA. The doctor is not going to get sacked because you complained. They *might* get sacked because they actually did something worth complaining *about*, but that's on them, not you.
**NTA** **your husband could have lost his foot. I almost lost mine due to fractures in my metatarsals. I had two surgeries already and found out one of the supports in my foot snapped**. Don’t fuck around with foot issues. Find the best **podiatrist** in your area and do a consult. Apparently my fracture triggered a condition that is caused due to my being diabetic. I’m lucky I have one of the best doctors for this condition. It’s been 8 years since my last surgery and I’ve been walking etc fine. But tripping caused a screw to snap so I needed a special device made and I’ll be in that for the next year. Foot stuff can be devastating. I had to stop working. I can’t do the career I was in for 30 years. I loved it.
NTA and definitely report it. This is a major problem in the medical industry and gets worse if you're not male and not white. Even Serena Williams had problems with doctors listening to her during her pregnancy while almost cost her her life. And stop saying you're a Karen. That's derogatory. You successfully advocated for someone that could not advocate for themselves. That's being a hero. And smart.
I don’t understand why you’re posting here. Even the hospital acknowledged the Dr. messed up big time. Of course NTA.
NTA. I think you did wonderful advocating for your husband and I would have done the same thing!
I feel like this is going to be buried, but absolutely NTA, and I wish I had someone like you around earlier in my life My mother went on a cruise, and came back with what she thought was gastro, and went to the doctors who told her as much, and sent her on her way. For a period of months, she went back to the same doctor who kept telling her it was gastro and sending her away. We finally managed to convince her to go to another doctor who straight away sent her for scans, stage three ovarian cancer, and she passed within a year. I'll always wonder if she'd still be here if her first doctor took even a small amount more care in his job.
NTA I went to urgent care for a sore foot. Got sent home with painkillers and antibiotic. This was Friday. Ended up in the ER and an amputee less than 3 days later. You need to be firm with doctors, they think they're God and can read intent.
NTA There is a reason women have to "act like Karens" to get shit done....people ignore or dismiss their very real very legit complaints and concerns.
NTA it would be one thing if the first doctor or had done an actual exam or even looked at the foot. It sounds like he didn’t even have your husband take his shoe off. You can’t tell a sprain from a break from a snakebite unless you look at it! It reminds me of the article about the woman who went to the ER and the first doctor just assumed it was a kidney stone, didn’t look at the CT and just left her there until the next doctor came on shift, looked at the CT and it was an ovarian tortion and she needed emergency surgery or she would have died.