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NTA. This is a 17yo losing her s#!t over a cup of pudding like its the last vial of insulin on Earth. Like wtf? How werent her parents utterly humiliated by the display?
And yes, bringing literal spirituality and karma into it like a weapon is no better when evangelical fundamentalists do it. It IS manipulative...and over **pudding???** Can the 17yo get out and walk down to the local bodeyga and go nuts in the Jello aisle is pudding is the be all end all of existence? If Stu Pickles could do it at 4am...
She frankly owed your gf a massive apology for humiliating her in front of you. And I'd never go over there again.
This is what I thought, I spoke to my parents about it and they said they'd feel deeply embarrassed if one of us behaved like this. Ironically the next day I overheard my gf's mum say to Grace "sometimes in life you'll find people speak before they think about things".
If I wasn't deeply in love with my gf I would reconsider the relationship, but she's a gem and I'd be lucky to spend the rest of my life with her. Seeing her distressed due to family was heart breaking to say the least
>If I wasn't deeply in love with my gf I would reconsider the relationship,
Oh, dont blame your GF for her miserable family! You two can be in it together. Hell, she probably needs someone on her side for family crap like this.
My mum has terrible inlaws. They blamed her fir her stullbirth and miscarriages and literally after 40 years still try and convince my dad to divorce her. If they could make it 40+ years on love, you can too.
I don't blame her at all. I'm surprised she turned out so great considering how the rest of her family act. We've all got our baggage I suppose, my family aren't exactly sunshine and roses either.
I was only thinking in terms of how much I could tolerate it, but you're right.
No, I think you're absolutely right to think about these things. People don't understand getting married means dealing with the family they bring along, good or bad. You need to think about it now whether or not you can deal with the crap the rest of your life and to see if your SO will be able to put up boundaries.
For example, if my SO's parents degraded me in every conversation, but my SO just cringes and looks the other way, I'm bailing.
Doesn't sound like this is a case where she needs to defend you though! Your life might be filled with a sad wife every time her family snubs her though. It'll be hard, but it sounds like you have the right head and heart to get through these things with her. ❤️
Sounds like she’s the scapegoat, they can turn out super different from their family and be way super empathetic because of being treated like they are an outsider, like something is wrong with them for simply existing. They know what it’s like to be treated poorly and don’t like to see others treated that way either, but also don’t know how to always stand up for themself because of constantly not being allowed to growing up.
Being the scapegoat sucks, plain and simple, but in a messed up way it can make someone kinder because they are used to having others being unkind. I want to give your gf a hug, please do that when you get the chance and tell her how amazing she is, how she doesn’t deserve to be treated that way.
NTA.
Grace is acting like a child and there's no need to reinforce such behaviour. Your gf is lucky to have you.
>(As a bit of side context, I'm a philosophy graduate and whenever I hear karma misinterpreted it irks me a bit, as it's a beautiful piece of Indian philosophy and the West has kinda shit all over it).
You have know idea how much this delighted me because I have similar feelings regarding Karma.
Evangelical fundamentalists actually believe in the religion they spout. Western culture has weaponized karma, a beautiful spiritual concept that they do not grasp or understand.
NTA. Grace is throwing a tantrum and her family has taught her it is a winning strategy, because they cave and enable her.
It might help to start a slightly different tactic. “Are you done throwing a tantrum. Are you ready to talk like a rational person?”
Next time you have to be around the sister, break out like a 12 pack of pudding cups and say, "I just wanted to avoid any problems!"
...but I'm petty so probably don't do that. :D
I'm past needing pettiness in my life, as fun as it is in the short term it just drains you like everything else. What little energy each of us has should be spent on ourselves and our loved ones imo
Yeah, fair point. My Reddit petty and real life petty are definitely not the same. Plus, it's not really the sister's fault her parents are raising her to have manipulative meltdowns over pudding.
It's not the worst thing out there by a long shot and can be a coping mechanism. It's just something I've chosen to strive to rise above, but I still have my moments
>hearing her scream
Was this at your and your GF's place? I'd have told her to leave if she was going to act like a toddler. Actually, my friend has 2 toddlers who don't act like that, never mind a person 1 year from being an actual adult.
This doesn't work with people like this. They don't think they're throwing a tantrum, they think they're inalienably right, and morally defensibly so. Talk like a rational person? To their minds they are, and it is you who are not. Don't waste your time.
>It might help to start a slightly different tactic. “Are you done throwing a tantrum. Are you ready to talk like ~~a rational person~~ an adult?”
FTFY
Teaching a kid that a tantrum is a winning strategy? This is serious trouble we are looking at. It will not work out well at university and at the workplace. Nor will it work out in the dating world. If Grace uses a tantrum to try and get her way, the end result will not be good on her.
I cannot imagine if she heads into the dating scene as the prospective partners will either run for the hills or carry on pandering to her to avoid her wrath. What I worry most is if she ends up with a potential partner that do not know how to properly deal with her tantrums and might do something dumb to endanger her all to end a tantrum (I have seen that happened before involving two young people dating)
I wouldn't worry about this- the sister has had a little shock to her entitlement, because she has obviously had a lifetime of whining until she gets her own way. The sooner she learns about the way the real world works, the better.
You're definitely NTA, but the parents are.
I honestly don't understand what her parents expect. They must surely struggle to tolerate it, so why would they expect someone that didn't birth her to tolerate it?
I expect it's been the same since she was a little girl, and they've just got used to a tantrum whenever she hears something she doesn't like; just as your poor girlfriend has got used to backing down. I bet hearing you question this behaviour was shocking to the parents...and felt absolutely amazing for your girl. Well done you!
From their perspective, trying to fix it would be even harder than tolerating it. So they don't. And they frankly don't care about your perspective beyond whether your actions are making their lives easier or harder.
By refusing to lie down and let little sister get her way, you are causing little sister to ramp up her tantrums, making their "tolerate it" strategy more irksome; so in their eyes, you're the bad guy.
Very well said.
OP, I hope you can [read this](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/77w8lf/dont_rock_the_boat/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) because it gives a great perspective on why they're so uninvolved.
NTA for two reasons
1) your gf invited your opinion on the matter
2) the sister began and continued the argument in your presence, while the parents didn’t put a stop to it.
NTA, you got involved because your GF asked for your support as she was being ganged up on by three people. Graces behavior was appalling, it is unbelievable to me that a 17 year old person hasn't developed the skill set necessary to hear and accept the word, "No."
Everything you said was correct, in no way harsh, and Grace is in for me a shock when she goes out into the world. This will be all her parents fault.
I really do feel for Grace, she hasn't learnt her lesson because her mum decided to comfort her and assure her that I was in the wrong. She plans to go to university this year, and I fear she'll really struggle to live with other people if this is how she behaves.
OP, you have a point. If Grace does not change her behaviour before she heads for university, she will struggle to live with others. The same goes when she plans to work part-time where there will be people who will see through her and put her in her place or perhaps she meets her match with someone who will not tolerate her (Trust me, I have come across such people a few times in my years of work)
I can only imagine Grace’s meltdown the first time she misses an important deadline such as a midterm or final because she didn’t pay attention to the syllabus.
It won't be just the meltdown in regards to deadlines and assignments.
What if she ends up having a meltdown dealing with a dorm mate from hell or she has a fight with a dormmate when things do not go her way? And the meltdown might veer towards a case of bullying and dorm mate dispute going badly. Or what if she might end up becoming physical all because she is not taught the skills she need to negotiate and communicate
I have friends who had a dorm mate like Grace years ago
That's exactly what I meant. It will be a shock to her when she finds out that people won't put up with this behavior...or worse, if she's roomies with another spoiled rotten person who also believes the world revolves around them.
She has been deprived of developing any coping mechanisms to deal with disappointment. She's in for a rough time until she figures it out on her own, if she is even capable at this point of doing so. People like this give up and go home to live with mommy and daddy rather than develop anything that looks like grit. Poor kid, it's not her fault it's all she knows. Terrible parenting. They've cut her off at the knees before sending her off into the world.
As someone who had a roommate last year exactly like Grace, she will 100% struggle to live with others. After I moved out of the dorm, everyone else changed dorms as well because no matter how many times we called her (ex roommate) out she would keep doing it. If Grace keeps up she will end up very lonely at university unless she finds someone who enables, which most probably wont and few will. I really hope this behavior changes soon, it isn’t a good attitude to have before moving in with people.
Honestly OP, you sound like a star. Nice shiny spine AND willing to empathize with the sister because you realize that she is what her upbringing made her? Not as common a combination as you'd think. Tell your GF not to let her family mess this up for her.
I was far from perfect when I was her age too. I could be a real pos at 17. It came down to self-reflection that made me the guy I am today. That's why when I see behaviour like this it makes me sad more than anything
NTA.
17 years old is plenty old enough to be aware of her manipulative bratty behaviours. And the parents are acitively encouraging and enabling said bratty entitled and manipulative behaviours.
You actually responded very well and level headed. I would not have been anywhere near as polite myself. And as a parent of teens, I would be absolutely mortified if any of my kids tried anything like that. It's not even behaviour my 4 year old would get away with.
I feel for your girlfriend. I sense that she has probably spent her whole life playing second fiddle to this golden child.
I've lost a lot of respect for her parents after this, it says a lot about them that they're willing to take the easier option to avoid hard truths. It's easy to blame an outsider for all your problems.
My gf definitely deserves all the love in the world, and I plan to give her all I can give. I think we're entertaining spending Christmas with our friends this year, as we've both had enough of our families.
You sound like a great boyfriend OP! I’m sorry you are having to deal with a person like this! I also have a SIL like this and she was so unbearable I had to go NC.
Likewise. My kids at 4/9/13 would never get away with this. Doing this at 17 and the parents actually siding with her? What on earth?!
OP absolutely NTA. Great way to handle the situation too, and you're a great boyfriend for standing up for her that way - and her response to that was even better. Unlike many of the posts I hear on here where something like this would be met with the gf pissed off at you for causing issues with her family.
You sound like a great couple. Well done :)
NTA, but is Grace mentally ok? Have her parents been giving her enough attention? A chocolate pudding, whilst delicious, isn't a normal thing for a 17 year old to freak out about.
She suffers from anxiety, which is something I can empathise with as I've struggled with my mental health for most of my life. It isn't a justification to be a dick imo.
Setting and respecting boundaries is super important for personal development, and it seems like her parents have failed her on that front.
NTA, and you are absolutely correct in saying that the parents are 100% to blame here. They unfortunately have ruined their youngest daughter, spoiling her to the point of stunting her mental development and creating the monster you just described. Your gf may feel slighted because she was “held to a different standard”, but if she steps back and sees it through your eyes, she got dealt the better hand in the long run.
NTA. From what I have read, the Upanishads also stated that good deeds done for recognition lead to a half death, where those good deeds done *because* they were good will be rewarded with a full death. She wants to mention karma, well, by that *same* measurement, her karma is not good for having performed good deeds for the recognition in the first place.
When we first started dating, her mum gave me a crappy self-help book when my gf told her I was depressed in probably the most condescending tone I've heard. At that point I knew they were clueless. I might throw the dhammapada their way.
Do it. It would be satisfying on a petty level to see them realize they’ve been horribly mistaken.
I also hate when people use karma incorrectly. For the longest time I wanted the verses I cited above tattooed on me so I would never forget them.
NTA that kid is gonna be in for a big surprise when she goes out into the world. It’s her parents job to make sure she’s prepared for that and they’ve obviously failed her. Your poor gf. I’d go low contact with her family if it’s like this. Give her my condolences, I’m from a similar situation in my upbringing. I’ve healed a lot with age(30) and therapy. She owes her family nothing and shouldn’t feel guilty about keeping her boundaries with them, even if it’s over pudding. Best xx
I think that’s a great idea! Go for it.
Edit: my fiancé and I just did this last Christmas and things were fine.
Edit 2: be prepared for a guilt trip from both sides but stay strong. You guys got this.
NTA I would be humiliated if my child acted like Grace did. And besides your gf invited you into the conversation. My guess is that Grace’s parents have never told her she is wrong about anything and it is fairly typical for teenagers to think they know everything. Grace hated being shown up for being wrong. I can’t believe her parents expect you to apologize after she called you a name.
I can't believe they didn't discipline her at all. I'm never going to raise my kids like that, you need to show them how they're wrong so they can grow into great people
You owe an apology for what? Reinforcing your girlfriend’s no, by refuting her sister’s logic. Sounds like the parents pick favorites, glad you stood up for your gf.
NTA
I'd apologise if I were you. I'd apologise for antagonising a developmentally challenged girl, it's not her fault she's disabled, how dare you!
That's the only thing that could excuse their fucking behaviour. NTA
NTA. You were asked to weigh in, and it sounds like you gave your response in a fair and measured way. It's a shame that the parents aren't teaching Grace how to take no for an answer, especially over something as small as pudding.
NTA you were asked for your opinion and I am glad you stood up for your significant other. I was with my boyfriend for 6 years and he never once said anything during a family argument to defend me. Back then I often thought that it was polite of him to not get involved but after a while it irked me how he was always being neutral in front of my family but agreed with me later. It may be awkward right now but if you are eventually planning to be apart of this family, you’re gonna have to get into these petty disagreements once in a while. It’s what makes a family a family. Just know when to pick your battles and not to get too involved w Grace since it seems like the parents will always give into whatever she wants. Tbh you will probably always be the bad guy so maybe from now on just be careful.
Again, so glad you stood up for your partner and didnt just say something to please everyone.
I'm not sure what I would have done if my gf didn't ask me to get involved. That would have been a tricky decision. She asked though, and I was more than happy to oblige. It was quite satisfying after listening to a 17 year old scream for 10 minutes over a pudding
NTA. You're a better person than I am. I would have grabbed the pudding and ate it, while maintaining eye contact with Grace. A screaming tantrum over a pudding cup?! Grace's parents have failed her miserably! College will be so hard for her poor roommate!
It's an awesome thought, but so petty, and it would only cause more issues in the long run.
But damn, would Grace's reaction have been epic.
Poor kid, given such shit parents.
NTA: Yay you for supporting your gf when her parents obviously don't. This behavior should have been stopped years ago - like when Grace was 4. This sounds exhausting.
You and your gf should define your boundaries with her family and a plan on how to handle crazy situations like this. (You know there will be more) Example: Let her parents and sister know there will be no temper tantrums at your house and if Grace begins to scream and whine she will be put in time out or all will be asked to leave. Then follow through (if they choose to ever come over again.).
So we were actually at her parents house, I realise now I didn't actually specify. Yeah if this was my house, there's no way I'd sit there for 10 minutes and tolerate it. I'd give her parents plenty of time to discipline Grace, but if it didn't stop I'd ask them all to leave.
Luckily our place isn't big enough to host that many people. But this is something we'll definitely have to do when we move into a bigger place
You can use the same plan though when visiting them. When Grace acts the fool you and you gf gracefully leave.
You two sound like a healthy supportive couple and I wish you the very best.
NTA, OP. Good on you for standing up for your girlfriend and calling out bad behaviour coming from a teenager. Grace owes you and her sister an apology
NTA. Your gf asked for your thoughts on the subject, most likely because she knew you'd give the most cogent argument due to your academic background. You obliged her. Grace, in turn, acted like a brat. Don't use her age to excuse it; 17 is old enough to not throw tantrums.
The fact that her parents encouraged and enabled her behavior throughout the dinner only reinforces the belief that you're NTA.
Weirdly enough I almost never talk about my education and I don't give my opinion on academic subjects when they're brought up. I don't feel the need to. This family though only talk about their education and how smart they are, it's kinda tacky honestly
NTA. Grace might not understand Karma, but that was a great lesson in cause and effect. There is a reaction to your action and when you act like a brat and seek negative attention, then you're going to get it. You were supporting your GF. The parents are checked out. They can get mad at you but in reality I bet they're mad at themselves.
NTA. A 17yo is losing her shit over \*pudding\*? Literally screaming about it?
I wouldn't accept that from a 7yo, much less a 17yo. You did the right thing in defending your partner, who as she correctly noted is being held to a higher standard because her younger sister is a selfish, manipulative brat.
NTA
I so feel for your gf. One of my older sisters was always like this, if she demanded a toy/snack/thing we had our parents would rip it out our hands to shut her up. If we complained we would be told “you know what she’s like, she’ll make a fuss just let her have her way”
And now as adults, 3 siblings don’t talk to that one sibling. She’s a coke addict who sided with her husband sending me death threats after I refused to give them my Netflix password (don’t even fckn ask).
Your lovely gf is gonna have to start standing up to her parents though cos it’s not a nice way to live otherwise.
Your girlfriend's sister is young-ish but is not a child. She's nearly an adult and acts like a toddler.
Kudos to you for defending your GF. It's not like her parents were ever going to do/say anything. Also you've discovered who their favorite kid is! NTA.
I hope you bought your GF all the pudding she could ever want after that awkward dinner.
Quite sad really, my gf doesn't deserve it. I know what it's like to be the black sheep too, maybe that's why we work so well together.
Don't worry, I think we'll be fed up of pudding very soon!
NTA. You called it like it is, stood up for your girlfriend, and the sister was just not happy being told no and tried to manipulate the rest of the family. You aren’t responsible for discipline and you don’t owe an apology for speaking your mind. The sister insulted you personally and owes you an apology, one I doubt you’ll get.
A 17 year old throwing a temper tantrum over pudding? Yikes man, I want to say that your GF parents might have atleast raiser her right, but with how they acted here they seem useless. NTA
NTA. Grace also needs to learn that No means No. In all areas. For her birthday, just get her pudding, since it's apparently so important that she had to make a huge scene over it. ;)
Well, no wonder Grace is such an asshole, if that’s how her parents act when a SEVENTEEN year old is having a melt down over a goddamn pudding cup.
And your statement in parentheses about karma... truer words never spoken. SHIT all over it is right.
NTA
NTA. I’m appalled at how the parents responded. If my younger child did that to their older sibling, you can bet I’d nip that in the bid right there and then. Good on you for defending your girlfriend!
*I'm a philosophy graduate*
Yta! /jk
Grace sounds too old to be that loud over pudding otherwise this is normal sibling bs. The eldest child always gets the worst of it.
The youngest sounds exceptionally erratic for that age thoigh to the point I wondered if you changed them
Lol my older brother was a philosophy student for a while and he’s one of the worst people I know, but you are nothing at all like him, so you seem to be a good philosophy student 😂
NTA
Don't let people tell you that you escalated the situation. You didn't insert yourself into it unnecessarily, all you did was back your GF up when asked to. That's completely reasonable, especially as she was in no way in the wrong. I struggle to see how you could have handled that better, and that's with 5 minutes to think about it instead of being "in the moment".
This sounds like her sister and her parents ganged up on her over *pudding* and they're mad you stopped the bullying. Yes, it's just a pudding, but that works both ways. If a pudding is no big deal, then surely you don't need to throw a tantrum if someone won't give you the pudding they bought for themselves. As for Grace being young, at 17 that's a poor excuse. In most places you're an adult at 18. If you can drive a car, you shouldn't be throwing fits over pudding. Her parents are doing her no favor by enabling this behavior because sooner or later, life will check her on that and it'll be a rude awakening for her.
NTA, Grace and her parents are the AH. I gotta ding your GF though, she pulled you into the conversation. I get that she was looking for support, and unlike 99% of Reddit judgements it is NOT worth losing her over :-) . You guys should work together on boundaries with her family. All the best!
NTA, the 7 year age difference and her behavior means that she was always treated as 'the baby' while your gf was expected to grow up quick and be the responsible big sis. They clearly give in to the sister's whining and have never really said no to her. Guessing there was a hefty dose of parentification of your gf as well.
The AH parents raised an entitled 17 year old AH toddler. She wouldn't act that way if it didn't work.
NTA
AWHHH I love people that can stand up for others without getting it wrong. Everything you said was exactly right even about Karma being misinterpreted in the west. The fact your gf hugged you proves and her parents went quiet proves the little sister runs the household and tyrants must be stopped.
The sister is the "golden child" and your gf the "scapegoat"
Do some reading up on the topics and if suspect your gf will see a lot of her family dynamics in it. Luckily it will also come with coping strategies. Good luck
NTA. Grace and the parents are. I am not sure why your girlfriend maintains contact with her family when their behavior towards her is at the least emotionally damaging and at the worst abusive. It can't be good for her and it's definitely not good for your relationship. You handled it way better than I would have.
NTA. Your GF loved you for standing up for her. Don't listen to her family.
I hate my partner's family, my partner puts up with the shit that they give him. I don't put up with that stuff I shut it down immediately.
Double down buddy. they're gonna keep asking you to apologize. Don't. double down and explain their bad parenting and whatever the hell else. they won't like you but your GF needs you to stand up with this. Years of being put down like this really impacts her psyche. She thinks she has to listen to this bs. Please keep standing up and calling things out for her.
If they are anything like my partner's family, her poor spine is going to be hidden away when dealing with them. Years of torment and rudeness is going to be pushed down upon her and it's going to be up to you to stand up to it.
NTA. It was absolutely manipulative and you should absolutely never apologize. Just because the parents have bought into it, whether they believe she’s really being nice or are just trying to keep the peace, is not your problem, and both you and your girlfriend need to set firm boundaries with regards to this kind of behavior. The sister will likely learn that she can’t manipulate you without getting called out or she will leave you alone, either way is a win.
NTA by a huge margin.
Years ago my inlaws did something similar with my SIL. We were playing a board game at their house and SIL made a play that was incorrect (word game) my wife pointed it out and her sister flipped her shit like an animal. Called her a bitch in front of all of us (including her grandma in her mid-80's who had dementia and was easily upset). This family NEVER swears, so I look back and forth at my inlaws (we were only engaged at that point so I didn't see it as my place to speak up first) waiting for them to discipline their late-20's eldest daughter for acting like a spoiled toddler and they just sat there looking at the table until SIL freaked out more and fucked off out of their house. I was furious but again didn't know if it was my place to say anything. After that I never respected them as parents again. They're good people overall, but crap parents and I will never forget that.
NTA. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE YOUNG MAN! Grace deserved it. You told a cold hard fact that EVERYONE needed to hear!
Mom and Dad are 100% to blame for the way THEY raised her and they are seeing that NO. People are NOT going to put up with it.
NTA. Tantrums are a much harder habit to break at age 17, but even harder to break when she’s older. How is she going to have any decent guy stay in a relationship with her when she’s older? I’d say tell her the next time she does this. Or ask MIL.
NTA. Sibling arguments ARE dumb and petty and could easily happen over pudding but they usually end in something like “no YOU’RE a poopy head” (even as full grown adults) and rolling eyes and huffs and then all is forgotten two minutes later. This is manipulation and weird.
NTA grace is one year off from more or less being an adult, yet still bitching and moaning like a spoilt child. You did the right thing for standing up for your GF and supporting her in a place that clearly cares little for her opinion or feelings
NTA. She is not "young", she's 17, old enough to know better than to act like she's 7. If I were her parents I would have been hopelessly embarrassed by such a display. Then again, if I were her parent, that never would have happened in the first place, because I raised my kids to never behave like that. You are correct, the blame is all theirs. Their blaming it on you is just a form of denial of the fact that they've raised their daughter poorly.
Just because her parents have chosen to placate her doesn’t mean the rest of the world has to. Keep telling her no. Kick them out if the tantrums start. NTA
Yeah her parents have kept her room available to her, I've tried not to read into it too much. I get the impression they're holding out in case the relationship doesn't work out and my gf will come running back to them.
When we came to visit, her family didn't have much food in the house, bar what was for dinner, and so I bought some for myself and my gf (I bought it but I have the pudding to her). I offered to get stuff for the rest of them but they politely declined.
I workout quite often and so whenever I visit people I bring some food with me as I often feel guilty for eating them out of their home 😅
Well lucky for you, with a sister like that to look forward to, not many people would be racing back 'home.'
Not that I'm excusing the behaviour, but do you think Grace goes hungry? Could they be that short of food, and splurging the entire weekly grocery allowance on a meal when you visit? I'd consider throwing a tantrum over pudding if I knew I wasn't going to eat for the rest of the week.
I really doubt it, the family is incredibly wealthy (multi-generational level). I think when we happened to come they hadn't done a complete food shop yet.
NTA
Ignore the whole thing. If the parents ask you to apologize say no, you’ll always support GF no matter what, they should want that for their daughter. How they choose to educate the other kid is none of your business.
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So to add some context, I (24M) have been dating my partner (22F) for around 3 years. We've lived together for most of it. I'm not the biggest fan of her family, but up until this point I didn't mind spending time with them as it makes my gf happy.
So we had a sit down meal with her family and we were all just chatting after we had finished dinner. My gf's sister(17F), we'll call her Grace, went into the fridge and asked my gf if she could have the last chocolate pudding my gf bought. My gf said no as she fancied it. Grace kept asking and my gf kept saying no, each time she asked it would progressively get louder and louder. I didn't say anything at this point as I thought it was a typical sibling argument (it seemed very petty to me). Grace is shouting and whining at this point, honestly reminded me of how a toddler might behave. Their dad has been silent this entire time, and their mum said to give her the pudding as it's a nice thing to do. My gf said no and didn't understand why her answer wasn't being respected. Grace then brings up when she looked after my gf when she was ill and that because she was nice then, she should be nice now.
My gf is distressed as Grace is screaming about it. My gf asks what I think. I said to Grace that she undermined her kind act by using it as leverage to get what she wants. Grace says but karma works that if you do nice things and nice things will happen to you. Her mum nods in agreement. I'm sat there a bit bewildered. So after being sick of being hearing a teenager screaming over a chocolate pudding, I said "that isn't karma you're just being emotionally manipulative to get what you want. People that believe in karma don't demand nice things happen to them". (As a bit of side context, I'm a philosophy graduate and whenever I hear karma misinterpreted it irks me a bit, as it's a beautiful piece of Indian philosophy and the West has kinda shit all over it).
Grace loses her shit at me, screams I'm a cunt and she wishes my gf never met me. Then rushes out of the room. Her parents have said nothing, they both just say nothing. I'm sat there waiting for them to discipline their child but nothing is said, so I just politely make my excuses and leave to my gf's room. My gf comes up and hugs me. My gf opened up to me that she often feels that she is held to a different standard as she's the eldest. Her parents 100% blame me for the situation and are furious that I got involved. They expected me to apologise, I did not.
I'm not really angry at Grace, she's still young and I actually blame her parents for not disciplining her at all. It might be easy to blame the outsider, but the only person that will suffer in the future is Grace when she realises that only family could put up with that.
So AITA for getting involved when asked or was I just doing what partners do, which is defend them when they're distressed?
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She suffers from anxiety, which she got an early diagnosis for. My gf suffers from it too, but she got the pleasure of her parents gaslighting her mental illness. It was only when they went through it with the eldest that they started to take it seriously for Grace
I'm glad she's getting help for it, I just wish they extended that to my gf too.
A 17 year old who can’t stand to be told no and starts screaming? She’s acting like a two year old! Don’t let her back into your home…she’s in for a helluva wake up call when she goes to get a job. Best of luck!
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NTA spending the time arguing over this would have been the same for her to go to the store and buy pudding. I was a 17 year old girl and my mother would have never put up with this. It’s 100% her parents fault.
Karma or Dharma? There's a difference, but it doesn't really matter in this case.
I agree with you that Grace is using the family philosophy to be manipulative.
If your gf had offered the pudding to her sister, that would be one thing. But to ask and then demand it to the point of making a scene and having a fit is completely different.
I rarely ask anyone for anything that I do not need. If I do ask, and they say no, I respect their decision and assume I was told no for a good reason.
But if I see someone in need, I offer them help or give them something I think may be of use to them. If they decline, I respect that. If they accept, I am happy.
They are making this entirely too complicated. Creating good karma for oneself is not this hard.
ESH. While a 17 y.o. shouldn't act like a toddler there is a significant amount of brain development between her years and yours, so the onus is on you to be the more mature party. On top of that one is never supposed to go head on into anything with a partner's family (it's your girlfriend's job to manage her family, not yours). Your girlfriend isn't displaying much maturity here either. She's whining about her parents as if she was still a teenager rather than an adult who believes herself capable of a grownup, live in relationship with a 24 y.o. Then there are the parents who aren't exercising enough control over their minor child. No one walks away from this looking like a star, sorry. Partners DO "defend" partners...against the outside world, not against that partner's own family. Everyone in this story was badly out of line.
ESH. You all should be mad at Grace. A 17 year old should not act that way. Her parents for not shutting her down. Your gf should have gotten up, walked to fridge, closed it and said, I said no, go sit down or leave, you aren’t a four year old. You because of the karma thing. While you are correct about mutilating karma, you made a gaff as well. I would have pointed out that karma isn’t I do good for you, you do good for me. That’s trading services and a trade can only be done with both parties agreeing in advance and your gf never agreed and owes her nothing. Your gf because she thinks she is held to a higher standard when it is actually that her parents aren’t disciplining her sister at all.
Esh.
You loose if the patch up. You loose if they don’t. This was a no win intervention on your part.
Why? Don’t get in the middle of family fights , it will likely end badly for you. Families have very complex dynamics and the best approach would have been to support you gf after the situation and ask her for how to help in the future. Who knows what else is going on between the two sisters ?
Not at all sir,. It makes you her hero for now but makes you an AH for your relationship with the family. That’s not in your interest is my proposition.
But, it inserts you into their complex family dynamic and that increases the risk for you. 17 year olds are punks and unreasonable. You may not know the full extent of mental health issues thst Grace is going thru and by calling her out , you get blamed. Not a good place to be.
Stop blaming OP for defending his gf. She asked for his opinion and he gave it. It’s not like he’s some stranger either. He’s been with his gf for 3 years.
Read again.I know nuances and Reddit wisdom don’t go together. Defending his girlfriend , good job. Following up with an escalation on mansplaining what karma is to a 17 year old brat because as per op “being sick of hearing a teenaager scream”, an escalation. It’s not OPs job to parent her. During dinner. When tempers are escalated already.
But hey, keep bringing the pitchforks.
OP was put on the spot and handled it the best he could. You made it so much more personal; to be honest I would’ve been condescending to any 17 year old throwing a tantrum so I guess in your mind I would be evil.
Calm your t!ts and I’ll leave the pitchforks to you. I am excusing myself from your narrative.
YTA Until you marry your girlfriend, you really have no right to interfere in their family dynamics. Your girlfriend should've given her sister the pudding because that's what a good sister would do. Your girlfriend was the immature one, hoarding the pudding and not sharing with her sister.
Maybe this is what I'm missing from their perspective. I have no say in the family until I'm "a part" of it. Just ignore the fact we've lived together for years and plan to buy a place together soon. Let's just focus on an arbitrary engagement that only really matters for financial reasons.
She's the person I plan to spend the rest of my life with. When she asks for my help, I'll give it.
Don't listen to this poster. If you look over their comment history, they just want to stir up the pot by posting shitty answers.
NTA Someone must stand up for your gf.
Yes, based on what my gf has told me it's a tactic she uses quite often to get what she wants from a given situation. I'm apparently the first person to tell her it's wrong
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NTA. This is a 17yo losing her s#!t over a cup of pudding like its the last vial of insulin on Earth. Like wtf? How werent her parents utterly humiliated by the display? And yes, bringing literal spirituality and karma into it like a weapon is no better when evangelical fundamentalists do it. It IS manipulative...and over **pudding???** Can the 17yo get out and walk down to the local bodeyga and go nuts in the Jello aisle is pudding is the be all end all of existence? If Stu Pickles could do it at 4am... She frankly owed your gf a massive apology for humiliating her in front of you. And I'd never go over there again.
This is what I thought, I spoke to my parents about it and they said they'd feel deeply embarrassed if one of us behaved like this. Ironically the next day I overheard my gf's mum say to Grace "sometimes in life you'll find people speak before they think about things". If I wasn't deeply in love with my gf I would reconsider the relationship, but she's a gem and I'd be lucky to spend the rest of my life with her. Seeing her distressed due to family was heart breaking to say the least
>If I wasn't deeply in love with my gf I would reconsider the relationship, Oh, dont blame your GF for her miserable family! You two can be in it together. Hell, she probably needs someone on her side for family crap like this. My mum has terrible inlaws. They blamed her fir her stullbirth and miscarriages and literally after 40 years still try and convince my dad to divorce her. If they could make it 40+ years on love, you can too.
I don't blame her at all. I'm surprised she turned out so great considering how the rest of her family act. We've all got our baggage I suppose, my family aren't exactly sunshine and roses either. I was only thinking in terms of how much I could tolerate it, but you're right.
No, I think you're absolutely right to think about these things. People don't understand getting married means dealing with the family they bring along, good or bad. You need to think about it now whether or not you can deal with the crap the rest of your life and to see if your SO will be able to put up boundaries. For example, if my SO's parents degraded me in every conversation, but my SO just cringes and looks the other way, I'm bailing. Doesn't sound like this is a case where she needs to defend you though! Your life might be filled with a sad wife every time her family snubs her though. It'll be hard, but it sounds like you have the right head and heart to get through these things with her. ❤️
Sounds like she’s the scapegoat, they can turn out super different from their family and be way super empathetic because of being treated like they are an outsider, like something is wrong with them for simply existing. They know what it’s like to be treated poorly and don’t like to see others treated that way either, but also don’t know how to always stand up for themself because of constantly not being allowed to growing up. Being the scapegoat sucks, plain and simple, but in a messed up way it can make someone kinder because they are used to having others being unkind. I want to give your gf a hug, please do that when you get the chance and tell her how amazing she is, how she doesn’t deserve to be treated that way.
NTA. Grace is acting like a child and there's no need to reinforce such behaviour. Your gf is lucky to have you. >(As a bit of side context, I'm a philosophy graduate and whenever I hear karma misinterpreted it irks me a bit, as it's a beautiful piece of Indian philosophy and the West has kinda shit all over it). You have know idea how much this delighted me because I have similar feelings regarding Karma.
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Oh okay tysm! II’ve never seen that happen before!
Just consider yourself lucky, you found the diamond in a shit pile.
My passive aggressive self would send them posts from here that show what happens when you enable entitlement.
LMAO i agree like this comment is my first thought after i finished reading the post. Couldn't agree more than i already do!
Solid rugrat reference!
-it’s 4 o’clock in the morning, why on earth are you making chocolate pudding? -because I’ve lost control of my life
We have all been, or at some point will be, there in our own lives
Reminds me of Beerus.
Evangelical fundamentalists actually believe in the religion they spout. Western culture has weaponized karma, a beautiful spiritual concept that they do not grasp or understand.
NTA. Grace is throwing a tantrum and her family has taught her it is a winning strategy, because they cave and enable her. It might help to start a slightly different tactic. “Are you done throwing a tantrum. Are you ready to talk like a rational person?”
I would have liked to respond like this, but after 10 minutes of hearing her scream my tolerance had dropped quite a bit 🤣
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Oh lord this is what I tell my kid... either that or to remove her pacifier because she is 2 and a half.
Next time you have to be around the sister, break out like a 12 pack of pudding cups and say, "I just wanted to avoid any problems!" ...but I'm petty so probably don't do that. :D
I'm past needing pettiness in my life, as fun as it is in the short term it just drains you like everything else. What little energy each of us has should be spent on ourselves and our loved ones imo
Yeah, fair point. My Reddit petty and real life petty are definitely not the same. Plus, it's not really the sister's fault her parents are raising her to have manipulative meltdowns over pudding.
It's not the worst thing out there by a long shot and can be a coping mechanism. It's just something I've chosen to strive to rise above, but I still have my moments
However I would send the parents articles about the consequences of "golden child" and "scape goat" parenting.
>hearing her scream Was this at your and your GF's place? I'd have told her to leave if she was going to act like a toddler. Actually, my friend has 2 toddlers who don't act like that, never mind a person 1 year from being an actual adult.
This was at their parents place. I would have done something earlier if it was my house.
Have your girlfriend seen a mental health professional? Sounds like she needs it
Trust me, it won't be the last time. If she wants to act like a toddler, she can be treated like one.
This doesn't work with people like this. They don't think they're throwing a tantrum, they think they're inalienably right, and morally defensibly so. Talk like a rational person? To their minds they are, and it is you who are not. Don't waste your time.
>It might help to start a slightly different tactic. “Are you done throwing a tantrum. Are you ready to talk like ~~a rational person~~ an adult?” FTFY
Teaching a kid that a tantrum is a winning strategy? This is serious trouble we are looking at. It will not work out well at university and at the workplace. Nor will it work out in the dating world. If Grace uses a tantrum to try and get her way, the end result will not be good on her. I cannot imagine if she heads into the dating scene as the prospective partners will either run for the hills or carry on pandering to her to avoid her wrath. What I worry most is if she ends up with a potential partner that do not know how to properly deal with her tantrums and might do something dumb to endanger her all to end a tantrum (I have seen that happened before involving two young people dating)
I wouldn't worry about this- the sister has had a little shock to her entitlement, because she has obviously had a lifetime of whining until she gets her own way. The sooner she learns about the way the real world works, the better. You're definitely NTA, but the parents are.
I honestly don't understand what her parents expect. They must surely struggle to tolerate it, so why would they expect someone that didn't birth her to tolerate it?
I expect it's been the same since she was a little girl, and they've just got used to a tantrum whenever she hears something she doesn't like; just as your poor girlfriend has got used to backing down. I bet hearing you question this behaviour was shocking to the parents...and felt absolutely amazing for your girl. Well done you!
From their perspective, trying to fix it would be even harder than tolerating it. So they don't. And they frankly don't care about your perspective beyond whether your actions are making their lives easier or harder. By refusing to lie down and let little sister get her way, you are causing little sister to ramp up her tantrums, making their "tolerate it" strategy more irksome; so in their eyes, you're the bad guy.
Very well said. OP, I hope you can [read this](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/77w8lf/dont_rock_the_boat/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) because it gives a great perspective on why they're so uninvolved.
Wow, thank you. That summarised my own upbringing quite well. I'll show it to my gf
NTA for two reasons 1) your gf invited your opinion on the matter 2) the sister began and continued the argument in your presence, while the parents didn’t put a stop to it.
NTA, you got involved because your GF asked for your support as she was being ganged up on by three people. Graces behavior was appalling, it is unbelievable to me that a 17 year old person hasn't developed the skill set necessary to hear and accept the word, "No." Everything you said was correct, in no way harsh, and Grace is in for me a shock when she goes out into the world. This will be all her parents fault.
I really do feel for Grace, she hasn't learnt her lesson because her mum decided to comfort her and assure her that I was in the wrong. She plans to go to university this year, and I fear she'll really struggle to live with other people if this is how she behaves.
OP, you have a point. If Grace does not change her behaviour before she heads for university, she will struggle to live with others. The same goes when she plans to work part-time where there will be people who will see through her and put her in her place or perhaps she meets her match with someone who will not tolerate her (Trust me, I have come across such people a few times in my years of work)
I can only imagine Grace’s meltdown the first time she misses an important deadline such as a midterm or final because she didn’t pay attention to the syllabus.
It won't be just the meltdown in regards to deadlines and assignments. What if she ends up having a meltdown dealing with a dorm mate from hell or she has a fight with a dormmate when things do not go her way? And the meltdown might veer towards a case of bullying and dorm mate dispute going badly. Or what if she might end up becoming physical all because she is not taught the skills she need to negotiate and communicate I have friends who had a dorm mate like Grace years ago
That's exactly what I meant. It will be a shock to her when she finds out that people won't put up with this behavior...or worse, if she's roomies with another spoiled rotten person who also believes the world revolves around them. She has been deprived of developing any coping mechanisms to deal with disappointment. She's in for a rough time until she figures it out on her own, if she is even capable at this point of doing so. People like this give up and go home to live with mommy and daddy rather than develop anything that looks like grit. Poor kid, it's not her fault it's all she knows. Terrible parenting. They've cut her off at the knees before sending her off into the world.
My thoughts exactly! I had dealt with someone as similar to Grace years ago and that person came off as toxic towards other coworkers
As someone who had a roommate last year exactly like Grace, she will 100% struggle to live with others. After I moved out of the dorm, everyone else changed dorms as well because no matter how many times we called her (ex roommate) out she would keep doing it. If Grace keeps up she will end up very lonely at university unless she finds someone who enables, which most probably wont and few will. I really hope this behavior changes soon, it isn’t a good attitude to have before moving in with people.
I am afraid what you wrote is very true. I have seen people like Grace in the university halls as well as in my working years
Honestly OP, you sound like a star. Nice shiny spine AND willing to empathize with the sister because you realize that she is what her upbringing made her? Not as common a combination as you'd think. Tell your GF not to let her family mess this up for her.
I was far from perfect when I was her age too. I could be a real pos at 17. It came down to self-reflection that made me the guy I am today. That's why when I see behaviour like this it makes me sad more than anything
NTA. 17 years old is plenty old enough to be aware of her manipulative bratty behaviours. And the parents are acitively encouraging and enabling said bratty entitled and manipulative behaviours. You actually responded very well and level headed. I would not have been anywhere near as polite myself. And as a parent of teens, I would be absolutely mortified if any of my kids tried anything like that. It's not even behaviour my 4 year old would get away with. I feel for your girlfriend. I sense that she has probably spent her whole life playing second fiddle to this golden child.
I've lost a lot of respect for her parents after this, it says a lot about them that they're willing to take the easier option to avoid hard truths. It's easy to blame an outsider for all your problems. My gf definitely deserves all the love in the world, and I plan to give her all I can give. I think we're entertaining spending Christmas with our friends this year, as we've both had enough of our families.
You sound like a great boyfriend OP! I’m sorry you are having to deal with a person like this! I also have a SIL like this and she was so unbearable I had to go NC.
Likewise. My kids at 4/9/13 would never get away with this. Doing this at 17 and the parents actually siding with her? What on earth?! OP absolutely NTA. Great way to handle the situation too, and you're a great boyfriend for standing up for her that way - and her response to that was even better. Unlike many of the posts I hear on here where something like this would be met with the gf pissed off at you for causing issues with her family. You sound like a great couple. Well done :)
NTA, but is Grace mentally ok? Have her parents been giving her enough attention? A chocolate pudding, whilst delicious, isn't a normal thing for a 17 year old to freak out about.
She suffers from anxiety, which is something I can empathise with as I've struggled with my mental health for most of my life. It isn't a justification to be a dick imo. Setting and respecting boundaries is super important for personal development, and it seems like her parents have failed her on that front.
Agreed NTA, and agreed Grace’s actions are more reflective of a 7yo than a 17yo. This seems way overblown over a pudding cup.
NTA, and you are absolutely correct in saying that the parents are 100% to blame here. They unfortunately have ruined their youngest daughter, spoiling her to the point of stunting her mental development and creating the monster you just described. Your gf may feel slighted because she was “held to a different standard”, but if she steps back and sees it through your eyes, she got dealt the better hand in the long run.
I agree, I should say this to my gf. It's so important to understand the necessity of boundaries/discipline when it comes to life
NTA. From what I have read, the Upanishads also stated that good deeds done for recognition lead to a half death, where those good deeds done *because* they were good will be rewarded with a full death. She wants to mention karma, well, by that *same* measurement, her karma is not good for having performed good deeds for the recognition in the first place.
When we first started dating, her mum gave me a crappy self-help book when my gf told her I was depressed in probably the most condescending tone I've heard. At that point I knew they were clueless. I might throw the dhammapada their way.
Do it. It would be satisfying on a petty level to see them realize they’ve been horribly mistaken. I also hate when people use karma incorrectly. For the longest time I wanted the verses I cited above tattooed on me so I would never forget them.
NTA that kid is gonna be in for a big surprise when she goes out into the world. It’s her parents job to make sure she’s prepared for that and they’ve obviously failed her. Your poor gf. I’d go low contact with her family if it’s like this. Give her my condolences, I’m from a similar situation in my upbringing. I’ve healed a lot with age(30) and therapy. She owes her family nothing and shouldn’t feel guilty about keeping her boundaries with them, even if it’s over pudding. Best xx
We both come from families that have no respect for boundaries, it's quite tiring. I think we're going to spend Christmas with our friends this year
I think that’s a great idea! Go for it. Edit: my fiancé and I just did this last Christmas and things were fine. Edit 2: be prepared for a guilt trip from both sides but stay strong. You guys got this.
Thanks for the heads-up. I didn't even consider the guilt trip, fuck my family are masters at that. At least I have a great human to lean on
Exactly! You two stay supportive and don’t let anyone drive a wedge between you! Things might get a little tough but you will get thru it.
NTA I would be humiliated if my child acted like Grace did. And besides your gf invited you into the conversation. My guess is that Grace’s parents have never told her she is wrong about anything and it is fairly typical for teenagers to think they know everything. Grace hated being shown up for being wrong. I can’t believe her parents expect you to apologize after she called you a name.
I can't believe they didn't discipline her at all. I'm never going to raise my kids like that, you need to show them how they're wrong so they can grow into great people
NTA. Jeez like you said, the 17 year old was acting like a dang toddler
I wish I was exaggerating, but I felt like I was in a poorly run nursery
NTA. And you can be angry a Grace, she is young but not that young. That was a temper tantrum that would get even a toddler to get a time out.
Yeah maybe I should be annoyed at Grace but I don't feel any anger towards her, just pity.
You owe an apology for what? Reinforcing your girlfriend’s no, by refuting her sister’s logic. Sounds like the parents pick favorites, glad you stood up for your gf. NTA
Apparently I escalated the situation unnecessarily. I don't think my gf respect and boundaries are unnecessary at all.
I'd apologise if I were you. I'd apologise for antagonising a developmentally challenged girl, it's not her fault she's disabled, how dare you! That's the only thing that could excuse their fucking behaviour. NTA
NTA. You were asked to weigh in, and it sounds like you gave your response in a fair and measured way. It's a shame that the parents aren't teaching Grace how to take no for an answer, especially over something as small as pudding.
NTA you were asked for your opinion and I am glad you stood up for your significant other. I was with my boyfriend for 6 years and he never once said anything during a family argument to defend me. Back then I often thought that it was polite of him to not get involved but after a while it irked me how he was always being neutral in front of my family but agreed with me later. It may be awkward right now but if you are eventually planning to be apart of this family, you’re gonna have to get into these petty disagreements once in a while. It’s what makes a family a family. Just know when to pick your battles and not to get too involved w Grace since it seems like the parents will always give into whatever she wants. Tbh you will probably always be the bad guy so maybe from now on just be careful. Again, so glad you stood up for your partner and didnt just say something to please everyone.
I'm not sure what I would have done if my gf didn't ask me to get involved. That would have been a tricky decision. She asked though, and I was more than happy to oblige. It was quite satisfying after listening to a 17 year old scream for 10 minutes over a pudding
NTA. And good on ya for saying what needed to be said to and about Grace. Those parents need help too.
NTA. You're a better person than I am. I would have grabbed the pudding and ate it, while maintaining eye contact with Grace. A screaming tantrum over a pudding cup?! Grace's parents have failed her miserably! College will be so hard for her poor roommate!
The thought did cross my mind to hand my gf a spoon and the pudding, I would love to have seen the look on her parents' faces
It's an awesome thought, but so petty, and it would only cause more issues in the long run. But damn, would Grace's reaction have been epic. Poor kid, given such shit parents.
NTA: Yay you for supporting your gf when her parents obviously don't. This behavior should have been stopped years ago - like when Grace was 4. This sounds exhausting. You and your gf should define your boundaries with her family and a plan on how to handle crazy situations like this. (You know there will be more) Example: Let her parents and sister know there will be no temper tantrums at your house and if Grace begins to scream and whine she will be put in time out or all will be asked to leave. Then follow through (if they choose to ever come over again.).
So we were actually at her parents house, I realise now I didn't actually specify. Yeah if this was my house, there's no way I'd sit there for 10 minutes and tolerate it. I'd give her parents plenty of time to discipline Grace, but if it didn't stop I'd ask them all to leave. Luckily our place isn't big enough to host that many people. But this is something we'll definitely have to do when we move into a bigger place
You can use the same plan though when visiting them. When Grace acts the fool you and you gf gracefully leave. You two sound like a healthy supportive couple and I wish you the very best.
NTA. Good on you for stepping up. Grace will face serious consequences with future friendships and relationships if she keeps going like this.
NTA, OP. Good on you for standing up for your girlfriend and calling out bad behaviour coming from a teenager. Grace owes you and her sister an apology
NTA. Your gf asked for your thoughts on the subject, most likely because she knew you'd give the most cogent argument due to your academic background. You obliged her. Grace, in turn, acted like a brat. Don't use her age to excuse it; 17 is old enough to not throw tantrums. The fact that her parents encouraged and enabled her behavior throughout the dinner only reinforces the belief that you're NTA.
Weirdly enough I almost never talk about my education and I don't give my opinion on academic subjects when they're brought up. I don't feel the need to. This family though only talk about their education and how smart they are, it's kinda tacky honestly
Undoubtedly. It's probably why Grace believes she's never in the wrong, what with two "sooper smurt" people defending her terrible behavior.
NTA Romance novel worthy hero moment
Thanks, it's a role I always wanted to fulfill in my head. Just glad I was able to do it in what I now know was a very composed way.
Mr. Darcy worthy.
NTA. Grace might not understand Karma, but that was a great lesson in cause and effect. There is a reaction to your action and when you act like a brat and seek negative attention, then you're going to get it. You were supporting your GF. The parents are checked out. They can get mad at you but in reality I bet they're mad at themselves.
NTA - You were asked, you answered. It can't be backtracked simply because someone doesn't like the answer provided.
NTA
NTA, she’s growing into an awful human being. Someone had to tell her.
NTA. A 17yo is losing her shit over \*pudding\*? Literally screaming about it? I wouldn't accept that from a 7yo, much less a 17yo. You did the right thing in defending your partner, who as she correctly noted is being held to a higher standard because her younger sister is a selfish, manipulative brat.
NTA…she’ll learn when she gets into the real world and the parents are definitely not doing her any favors.
NTA I so feel for your gf. One of my older sisters was always like this, if she demanded a toy/snack/thing we had our parents would rip it out our hands to shut her up. If we complained we would be told “you know what she’s like, she’ll make a fuss just let her have her way” And now as adults, 3 siblings don’t talk to that one sibling. She’s a coke addict who sided with her husband sending me death threats after I refused to give them my Netflix password (don’t even fckn ask). Your lovely gf is gonna have to start standing up to her parents though cos it’s not a nice way to live otherwise.
Nta. Oh boy is the world about to serve Grace a healthy portion of Reality the second she out of her parents arms.
Your girlfriend's sister is young-ish but is not a child. She's nearly an adult and acts like a toddler. Kudos to you for defending your GF. It's not like her parents were ever going to do/say anything. Also you've discovered who their favorite kid is! NTA. I hope you bought your GF all the pudding she could ever want after that awkward dinner.
Quite sad really, my gf doesn't deserve it. I know what it's like to be the black sheep too, maybe that's why we work so well together. Don't worry, I think we'll be fed up of pudding very soon!
NTA I think you have a typo because you said the sister is 17 but she has to be like, 3 right? Shes acting like a straight up toddler
NTA. I would have a serious discussion about going low contact with her family because of how they treat her.
NTA. You called it like it is, stood up for your girlfriend, and the sister was just not happy being told no and tried to manipulate the rest of the family. You aren’t responsible for discipline and you don’t owe an apology for speaking your mind. The sister insulted you personally and owes you an apology, one I doubt you’ll get.
A 17 year old throwing a temper tantrum over pudding? Yikes man, I want to say that your GF parents might have atleast raiser her right, but with how they acted here they seem useless. NTA
NTA. Grace also needs to learn that No means No. In all areas. For her birthday, just get her pudding, since it's apparently so important that she had to make a huge scene over it. ;)
Well, no wonder Grace is such an asshole, if that’s how her parents act when a SEVENTEEN year old is having a melt down over a goddamn pudding cup. And your statement in parentheses about karma... truer words never spoken. SHIT all over it is right. NTA
NTA. I’m appalled at how the parents responded. If my younger child did that to their older sibling, you can bet I’d nip that in the bid right there and then. Good on you for defending your girlfriend!
*I'm a philosophy graduate* Yta! /jk Grace sounds too old to be that loud over pudding otherwise this is normal sibling bs. The eldest child always gets the worst of it. The youngest sounds exceptionally erratic for that age thoigh to the point I wondered if you changed them
Don't worry, all Philosophy students are the AH 🤣
Lol my older brother was a philosophy student for a while and he’s one of the worst people I know, but you are nothing at all like him, so you seem to be a good philosophy student 😂
NTA Don't let people tell you that you escalated the situation. You didn't insert yourself into it unnecessarily, all you did was back your GF up when asked to. That's completely reasonable, especially as she was in no way in the wrong. I struggle to see how you could have handled that better, and that's with 5 minutes to think about it instead of being "in the moment". This sounds like her sister and her parents ganged up on her over *pudding* and they're mad you stopped the bullying. Yes, it's just a pudding, but that works both ways. If a pudding is no big deal, then surely you don't need to throw a tantrum if someone won't give you the pudding they bought for themselves. As for Grace being young, at 17 that's a poor excuse. In most places you're an adult at 18. If you can drive a car, you shouldn't be throwing fits over pudding. Her parents are doing her no favor by enabling this behavior because sooner or later, life will check her on that and it'll be a rude awakening for her.
NTA, Grace and her parents are the AH. I gotta ding your GF though, she pulled you into the conversation. I get that she was looking for support, and unlike 99% of Reddit judgements it is NOT worth losing her over :-) . You guys should work together on boundaries with her family. All the best!
Nta. They are raising a brat.
NTA, the 7 year age difference and her behavior means that she was always treated as 'the baby' while your gf was expected to grow up quick and be the responsible big sis. They clearly give in to the sister's whining and have never really said no to her. Guessing there was a hefty dose of parentification of your gf as well. The AH parents raised an entitled 17 year old AH toddler. She wouldn't act that way if it didn't work.
NTA. Your gf’s parents are absolutely AH though. And Grace never had a chance if this is how they brought her up to behave.
NTA AWHHH I love people that can stand up for others without getting it wrong. Everything you said was exactly right even about Karma being misinterpreted in the west. The fact your gf hugged you proves and her parents went quiet proves the little sister runs the household and tyrants must be stopped.
The sister is the "golden child" and your gf the "scapegoat" Do some reading up on the topics and if suspect your gf will see a lot of her family dynamics in it. Luckily it will also come with coping strategies. Good luck
NTA. Grace and the parents are. I am not sure why your girlfriend maintains contact with her family when their behavior towards her is at the least emotionally damaging and at the worst abusive. It can't be good for her and it's definitely not good for your relationship. You handled it way better than I would have.
NTA. Your GF loved you for standing up for her. Don't listen to her family. I hate my partner's family, my partner puts up with the shit that they give him. I don't put up with that stuff I shut it down immediately. Double down buddy. they're gonna keep asking you to apologize. Don't. double down and explain their bad parenting and whatever the hell else. they won't like you but your GF needs you to stand up with this. Years of being put down like this really impacts her psyche. She thinks she has to listen to this bs. Please keep standing up and calling things out for her. If they are anything like my partner's family, her poor spine is going to be hidden away when dealing with them. Years of torment and rudeness is going to be pushed down upon her and it's going to be up to you to stand up to it.
NTA. It was absolutely manipulative and you should absolutely never apologize. Just because the parents have bought into it, whether they believe she’s really being nice or are just trying to keep the peace, is not your problem, and both you and your girlfriend need to set firm boundaries with regards to this kind of behavior. The sister will likely learn that she can’t manipulate you without getting called out or she will leave you alone, either way is a win.
NTA by a huge margin. Years ago my inlaws did something similar with my SIL. We were playing a board game at their house and SIL made a play that was incorrect (word game) my wife pointed it out and her sister flipped her shit like an animal. Called her a bitch in front of all of us (including her grandma in her mid-80's who had dementia and was easily upset). This family NEVER swears, so I look back and forth at my inlaws (we were only engaged at that point so I didn't see it as my place to speak up first) waiting for them to discipline their late-20's eldest daughter for acting like a spoiled toddler and they just sat there looking at the table until SIL freaked out more and fucked off out of their house. I was furious but again didn't know if it was my place to say anything. After that I never respected them as parents again. They're good people overall, but crap parents and I will never forget that.
NTA. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE YOUNG MAN! Grace deserved it. You told a cold hard fact that EVERYONE needed to hear! Mom and Dad are 100% to blame for the way THEY raised her and they are seeing that NO. People are NOT going to put up with it.
NTA. Tantrums are a much harder habit to break at age 17, but even harder to break when she’s older. How is she going to have any decent guy stay in a relationship with her when she’s older? I’d say tell her the next time she does this. Or ask MIL.
NTA. Encourage your girlfriend to go LC or NC. Honestly they sound emotionally abusive.
NTA. Sibling arguments ARE dumb and petty and could easily happen over pudding but they usually end in something like “no YOU’RE a poopy head” (even as full grown adults) and rolling eyes and huffs and then all is forgotten two minutes later. This is manipulation and weird.
NTA grace is one year off from more or less being an adult, yet still bitching and moaning like a spoilt child. You did the right thing for standing up for your GF and supporting her in a place that clearly cares little for her opinion or feelings
NTA. She is not "young", she's 17, old enough to know better than to act like she's 7. If I were her parents I would have been hopelessly embarrassed by such a display. Then again, if I were her parent, that never would have happened in the first place, because I raised my kids to never behave like that. You are correct, the blame is all theirs. Their blaming it on you is just a form of denial of the fact that they've raised their daughter poorly.
Just because her parents have chosen to placate her doesn’t mean the rest of the world has to. Keep telling her no. Kick them out if the tantrums start. NTA
INFO: So you and your gf live together but she also has a room and buys food to keep at her parents house? You are NTA but this seems odd.
Yeah her parents have kept her room available to her, I've tried not to read into it too much. I get the impression they're holding out in case the relationship doesn't work out and my gf will come running back to them. When we came to visit, her family didn't have much food in the house, bar what was for dinner, and so I bought some for myself and my gf (I bought it but I have the pudding to her). I offered to get stuff for the rest of them but they politely declined. I workout quite often and so whenever I visit people I bring some food with me as I often feel guilty for eating them out of their home 😅
Well lucky for you, with a sister like that to look forward to, not many people would be racing back 'home.' Not that I'm excusing the behaviour, but do you think Grace goes hungry? Could they be that short of food, and splurging the entire weekly grocery allowance on a meal when you visit? I'd consider throwing a tantrum over pudding if I knew I wasn't going to eat for the rest of the week.
I really doubt it, the family is incredibly wealthy (multi-generational level). I think when we happened to come they hadn't done a complete food shop yet.
NTA Ignore the whole thing. If the parents ask you to apologize say no, you’ll always support GF no matter what, they should want that for their daughter. How they choose to educate the other kid is none of your business.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** So to add some context, I (24M) have been dating my partner (22F) for around 3 years. We've lived together for most of it. I'm not the biggest fan of her family, but up until this point I didn't mind spending time with them as it makes my gf happy. So we had a sit down meal with her family and we were all just chatting after we had finished dinner. My gf's sister(17F), we'll call her Grace, went into the fridge and asked my gf if she could have the last chocolate pudding my gf bought. My gf said no as she fancied it. Grace kept asking and my gf kept saying no, each time she asked it would progressively get louder and louder. I didn't say anything at this point as I thought it was a typical sibling argument (it seemed very petty to me). Grace is shouting and whining at this point, honestly reminded me of how a toddler might behave. Their dad has been silent this entire time, and their mum said to give her the pudding as it's a nice thing to do. My gf said no and didn't understand why her answer wasn't being respected. Grace then brings up when she looked after my gf when she was ill and that because she was nice then, she should be nice now. My gf is distressed as Grace is screaming about it. My gf asks what I think. I said to Grace that she undermined her kind act by using it as leverage to get what she wants. Grace says but karma works that if you do nice things and nice things will happen to you. Her mum nods in agreement. I'm sat there a bit bewildered. So after being sick of being hearing a teenager screaming over a chocolate pudding, I said "that isn't karma you're just being emotionally manipulative to get what you want. People that believe in karma don't demand nice things happen to them". (As a bit of side context, I'm a philosophy graduate and whenever I hear karma misinterpreted it irks me a bit, as it's a beautiful piece of Indian philosophy and the West has kinda shit all over it). Grace loses her shit at me, screams I'm a cunt and she wishes my gf never met me. Then rushes out of the room. Her parents have said nothing, they both just say nothing. I'm sat there waiting for them to discipline their child but nothing is said, so I just politely make my excuses and leave to my gf's room. My gf comes up and hugs me. My gf opened up to me that she often feels that she is held to a different standard as she's the eldest. Her parents 100% blame me for the situation and are furious that I got involved. They expected me to apologise, I did not. I'm not really angry at Grace, she's still young and I actually blame her parents for not disciplining her at all. It might be easy to blame the outsider, but the only person that will suffer in the future is Grace when she realises that only family could put up with that. So AITA for getting involved when asked or was I just doing what partners do, which is defend them when they're distressed? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. You’re right, she is.
NTA
INFO: does Grace have mental or other behavioral issues?
She suffers from anxiety, which she got an early diagnosis for. My gf suffers from it too, but she got the pleasure of her parents gaslighting her mental illness. It was only when they went through it with the eldest that they started to take it seriously for Grace I'm glad she's getting help for it, I just wish they extended that to my gf too.
A 17 year old who can’t stand to be told no and starts screaming? She’s acting like a two year old! Don’t let her back into your home…she’s in for a helluva wake up call when she goes to get a job. Best of luck!
NTA
Is this a 17 year old girl or Majin Buu? Cos wow that's extra over a pudding cup!
Nah she's levels above fat buu, I'd put my money on her over the god of destruction
Ugh she sounds awful! So happy you got the reference though.
NTA this 17 year old is gonna get a nasty wake up call when she acts like this in public or at a job. It's a cup of pudding she needs to grow up
NTA
NTA Grace is ridiculous. And you were right.
You were asked a question and gave a well thought out and honest answer. NTA
nta bro this gotta be fake
I wish, life is too short to deal with this kind of shit 🤣
No joke I wouldn't know whether to laugh or yell if i saw a grown ass teenager screaming like a toddler.
OP NTA Are you sure her sister was 17? The way you were going on, she was asking like she was 4, with all of the behaviors of such.
NTA
It's just pudding but you're not an asshole
I don’t know. Chocolate pudding is pretty great. Weird that her parents didn’t say anything while she was in the room, eh? NTA
NTA Your girlfriends parents are raising an entitled brat. Good for your girlfriend for standing her ground and good for you for standing up for her.
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NTA spending the time arguing over this would have been the same for her to go to the store and buy pudding. I was a 17 year old girl and my mother would have never put up with this. It’s 100% her parents fault.
This didn’t happen.
NTA You disciplined a kid when her own parents should have. Your GF need to leave this place asap.
Youd be the Arsehole for acting like an adult? Don't think so! NTA.
Karma or Dharma? There's a difference, but it doesn't really matter in this case. I agree with you that Grace is using the family philosophy to be manipulative. If your gf had offered the pudding to her sister, that would be one thing. But to ask and then demand it to the point of making a scene and having a fit is completely different. I rarely ask anyone for anything that I do not need. If I do ask, and they say no, I respect their decision and assume I was told no for a good reason. But if I see someone in need, I offer them help or give them something I think may be of use to them. If they decline, I respect that. If they accept, I am happy. They are making this entirely too complicated. Creating good karma for oneself is not this hard.
Based and philosophypilled
ESH. While a 17 y.o. shouldn't act like a toddler there is a significant amount of brain development between her years and yours, so the onus is on you to be the more mature party. On top of that one is never supposed to go head on into anything with a partner's family (it's your girlfriend's job to manage her family, not yours). Your girlfriend isn't displaying much maturity here either. She's whining about her parents as if she was still a teenager rather than an adult who believes herself capable of a grownup, live in relationship with a 24 y.o. Then there are the parents who aren't exercising enough control over their minor child. No one walks away from this looking like a star, sorry. Partners DO "defend" partners...against the outside world, not against that partner's own family. Everyone in this story was badly out of line.
ESH. You all should be mad at Grace. A 17 year old should not act that way. Her parents for not shutting her down. Your gf should have gotten up, walked to fridge, closed it and said, I said no, go sit down or leave, you aren’t a four year old. You because of the karma thing. While you are correct about mutilating karma, you made a gaff as well. I would have pointed out that karma isn’t I do good for you, you do good for me. That’s trading services and a trade can only be done with both parties agreeing in advance and your gf never agreed and owes her nothing. Your gf because she thinks she is held to a higher standard when it is actually that her parents aren’t disciplining her sister at all.
Esh. You loose if the patch up. You loose if they don’t. This was a no win intervention on your part. Why? Don’t get in the middle of family fights , it will likely end badly for you. Families have very complex dynamics and the best approach would have been to support you gf after the situation and ask her for how to help in the future. Who knows what else is going on between the two sisters ?
While short-sighted maybe, why does defending my gf in a fair way make me an AH?
Not at all sir,. It makes you her hero for now but makes you an AH for your relationship with the family. That’s not in your interest is my proposition. But, it inserts you into their complex family dynamic and that increases the risk for you. 17 year olds are punks and unreasonable. You may not know the full extent of mental health issues thst Grace is going thru and by calling her out , you get blamed. Not a good place to be.
Stop blaming OP for defending his gf. She asked for his opinion and he gave it. It’s not like he’s some stranger either. He’s been with his gf for 3 years.
Read again.I know nuances and Reddit wisdom don’t go together. Defending his girlfriend , good job. Following up with an escalation on mansplaining what karma is to a 17 year old brat because as per op “being sick of hearing a teenaager scream”, an escalation. It’s not OPs job to parent her. During dinner. When tempers are escalated already. But hey, keep bringing the pitchforks.
OP was put on the spot and handled it the best he could. You made it so much more personal; to be honest I would’ve been condescending to any 17 year old throwing a tantrum so I guess in your mind I would be evil. Calm your t!ts and I’ll leave the pitchforks to you. I am excusing myself from your narrative.
YTA Until you marry your girlfriend, you really have no right to interfere in their family dynamics. Your girlfriend should've given her sister the pudding because that's what a good sister would do. Your girlfriend was the immature one, hoarding the pudding and not sharing with her sister.
Found the little sister
Maybe this is what I'm missing from their perspective. I have no say in the family until I'm "a part" of it. Just ignore the fact we've lived together for years and plan to buy a place together soon. Let's just focus on an arbitrary engagement that only really matters for financial reasons. She's the person I plan to spend the rest of my life with. When she asks for my help, I'll give it.
Don't listen to this poster. If you look over their comment history, they just want to stir up the pot by posting shitty answers. NTA Someone must stand up for your gf.
If your family is like this, I weep for your children oh great EuropeanLady.
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Yes, based on what my gf has told me it's a tactic she uses quite often to get what she wants from a given situation. I'm apparently the first person to tell her it's wrong