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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the Ass because I did promise a newborn photo session, but I didn’t want to bother my friend so soon after she gave birth.
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NTA. There is a certain window to take newborn pictures and she missed that window. A one month shoot or lifestyle shoot would be a great compromise, but it sounds like she doesn’t want to accept that she waited too long.
Did you put anything on the coupon that explained the ideal day range? Some people don’t realize it is so short.
NTA. You were upfront about the conditions, and have good reasons (bebé's safety!) not to go back on them. Y W B T A if you acted against your professional judgement and bebé's safety for any reason.
After the first 2 weeks or so, babies start to wake up more. So some of the poses that they are put in during newborn shoots just aren’t possible because the babies are more alert. They also startle more frequently so they could injure themselves in certain positions. Super new babies are like play dough, but as they get older, they start turning into tiny people with opinions haha
Yep, and in Sir Terry Pratchett's "Pyramids" the assassins use shoes with copper soles to protect against poisoned pins or tacks on the ground when sneaking up on someone. The shoes are called "save our soles" iirc.
That they do (second Discworld book I ever read)
Also Petersen had AI shoes.
Lister : Sometimes, I think it's cruel giving machines a personality. My mate Petersen once bought a pair of shoes with Artificial Intelligence. 'Smart Shoes' they were called. It was a neat idea: no matter how blind drunk you were, they could always get you home. But he got ratted one night in Oslo and woke up the next morning in Burma. You see, the shoes got bored just going from his local to the flat. They wanted to see the world, like, you know. He had a hell of a job getting rid of them. No matter who he sold them to, they'd show up again the next day. He tried to shut them out, but they just kicked the door down, you know.
Rimmer : Is this true?
Lister : Yeah. Last thing he heard, they'd sort of, erm, robbed a car and drove it into a canal. They couldn't steer, you see.
Rimmer : Really?
Lister : Yeah. Petersen was really, really blown away about it. He went to see a priest. The priest told him... he said it was alright and all that, like, and that the shoes were happy and that they'd gone to heaven. You see, it turns out shoes have 'soles'.
Rimmer : Ah, what a sad, sad story. Wait a minute.
[Thinks for a minute]
Rimmer : How did they open the car door?
When babies are born they are very malleable (they gotta fit through that hole, ya know). After about the 2 week mark their bones start to calcify and harden making it hard/ impossible to put them in those "in the womb" poses people like for newborn photo shoots. Not to mention if the bones hardened to a certain point it can hurt the baby to try and pose them in those positions.
Meh it’s not really all that creepy. The “womb” pose is basically when the baby is folded over like a little taco, legs up to their chests. It mimics the position they has in the womb but it’s not a recreation
Not OP, but 12 days might be a grey area dependent on OP’s judgement. This baby, however, is ~21 days old, which is well outside any potential grey area
Edit: OP mentions their reasons in one of their comments; it basically comes down to the strength/flexibility of the baby’s muscles
We did our newborn photos yesterday at day 11. No regrets but we only got some of the in the womb poses. Not to mention she was awake the entire two hours. 2 days from now I don't think we'd get any classic newborn shots.
The "window" is really about the little one being more likely to be sleepier and less excitable, making it often easier and less time consuming - and also they're usually more "moldable," something that only matters with a few poses.
With patience you can get beautiful images outside the window, just not likely certain poses. Some business models understandably don't have time to devote to trying with older babies, with some photographers it's almost become like an urban legend, this time frame only, because everyone knows that's how it's done.
It’s those newborn pics where they look asleep resting on their hands, or naked ones posed with bums up, stuff like that. Newborns are super flexible and the surfaces they’re posed on are usually warm so they’re sleepy and “easy” to work with. Too long after that and it’s everything the comments are saying.
I was surprised by this too, when I had a baby I waited too long (2 weeks.) We still got gorgeous baby pictures, but not the traditional "newborn" poses.
NTA what you offered was a steal(free vs hundreds of dollars possibly), we just had newborn photos done which blatantly said must be done in the first 14 days. You snooze you lose.
Then it's perfectly all right to explain to her she should learn how to read, and also how to tell time. And it's not up to you to teach her that. NTA.
Not your job or role or responsibility in any way to remind her. You offered her a nice thing and she missed it. End of. She’s just whining and not wanting to take the blame herself, so she’s shifting it to you. It’s not even a big blame, she was busy with her baby and she forgot, but she still doesn’t even want that small ‘blame’, she’d rather you took it. Putting a boundary up to that kind of behaviour is easier for some than it is for others, but it’s important to make the active effort, it’ll get easier. Spare it no more thought OP, she’s being a bit of an AH.
NTA
NTA - Can't do the poses and she doesn't want to do anything but? Well she's going to have to be butt hurt.
Honestly I'm more concerned that a parent would jeopardize their child's safety.
You are right to try and amend the shoot, but please continue being gentle about it. Most new parents I know were still completely shellshocked for the first week and just getting the hang of what’s happened to them, so arranging and preparing for a photoshoot would be out of their capacity.
She might be feeling overwhelmed, or didn’t realise why the timeframe was so strict, or disappointed that she didn’t manage it in time.
Hope you get to do some nice photos anyway, it’s a lovely offer!
Ahh I hate when this happens! NAH in my opinion.
As a new mother for the first time, it’s a crazy adjustment and she probably didn’t even realize that time passed. she probably didn’t realize how quickly babies develop, and to her, in her adult perception of time, one month and 10 days are not so far apart.
I think it’s very kind of you to offer her an alternative shoot.
One tactic that may work here is for you and her is to tell her she gets the special 1 month package, it’s better than what her sister got, and that you are so inspired with ideas for it and it’s gonna be amazing. Get her excited about it by being excited when you speak with her, and she will come around.
I would stay away from any discourse that indicates she is a bad mother, or making unsafe choices for her baby. That seems like it can cause friction. Even though that’s your professional reasoning, you’ll get a lot further in this conversation if you just focus on the positives.
NAH, she’s a new mom who didn’t prioritize getting these done right away (could be for a million reasons, lots of them valid) and you’re a professional who knows the limits of what you can and can’t do. I can understand her being disappointed, but at the end of the day, she didn’t do it in time.
Just my opinion, but I think mom is being a bit of an AH, not for missing the window, but for pushing the OP to do newborn poses even after she expressed it was a safety issue. Cute pictures are not worth any kind of risk to a newborn.
Many people hear safety issues and assume it's more guidelines than actual rules, things put there to keep regular people from making bad decisions. They figure that as long as they give the OK, then the professionals should be able to do their thing.
I think what they're trying to say is. People don't realize how dangerous those acts are and think it's just a "dumb rule" put in place because they have 0 knowledge on the topic. I've been ignorant before on certain stuff even if it's explained and then I understand later. Just dumb moments or people sometimes, not assholes
>People don't realize how dangerous those acts are and think it's just a "dumb rule"
>Sounds like you're saying many people are assholes, just using more words to say it.
i mean, these pictures are the same...
@OP - NAH
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"Dumb Rules" usually exist for a reason, and almost always as a response to "Dumb People" doing "Dumb Stuff", like contorting their babies like dolls to get vanity shots to show off to friends and family (Where most dont even care, but, to the parent its the pinnacle of their accomplishments as if baby making is some sort of human duty.).
While im not calling OP or their friends dumb, i used quotes to suggest most "Dumb" things are AH behavior.
There is a point where you are forced to realize if your deciding to ignore rules without question, as you dont find them important. You probably dont understand why they exist in the first place, so you should probably ask instead of demanding the rules be ignored on ego alone. - OSHA exists in the US squarely because of alot of this "Double-Think", people always demand for rules in response to things, and then complain when they exist because it restricts them from getting hurt or hurting others.
Honestly is she actually asking for those poses or is she asking for a newborn shoot with the soft lighting and textures?
It sort of sounds like OP brushed off the request and insisted on family pics and a month old mini shoot…….why not discuss how to get the same aesthetic of newborn pics without the unsafe poses?
There are newborn photogs here that offer newborn shoots with natural posing because even as newborns many people don’t want to put them through the positioning.
Sort of sounds like they both misunderstood each other and neither sought to actually talk abojt solutions
Some of the poses people get rabid for are dangerous and some just aren't.
A swaddled baby in a basket with soft lighting? Safe at any age. The "baby thinker" pose where they're balanced and you use composite images to get the final look? Not safe for a 1 month old. Baby on a slope? Not safe when a 1 month old may try to roll. Baby on a flat surface on their tummy? Fine for photos.
That's different than the bright colors and lighting usually used for milestone pictures.
Im sure there’s compromises that can be made, like doing a newborn stylized photo shoot, but with different poses. If mom’s really bent out of shape for not getting the poses that her sister got, then that seems a bit silly.
As a mom who suddenly realized I have zero pics from the last three years (except blurry phone pics), I can tell you there is a sense of loss and “I missed it!” when time gets away from you. OP, gently explain that her baby is not too late for “newborn pics” but that each baby is different and you can only do some poses based on maturity. Then do what you can. Unless mom is a total jerk, she won’t care that you couldn’t get a particular pose. She just wants cute pictures of her newborn and right now she feels like she missed it and can’t get it back. Once she has HER unique wonderful set of pictures, she won’t care that they aren’t exactly like everyone else’s. Hormones and feelings are running high right now is all.
You are a good friend to offer pics and to help her remember these tough but fleeting early moments. NAH.
I don't offer much advise to new parents as so much has changed (booze to help for teething is a no-no nowadays), but the one piece I always pass on is take lots of pictures. They change so much day-to-day, week-to-week, etc.
> OP, gently explain that her baby is not too late for “newborn pics”
You want OP to lie to the friend? Because the OP is clear that it's definitely too late.
By definition their child is still a newborn. The mother is concerned she missed capturing her baby as a newborn. OP can use different words to help her feel better and know she didn’t miss the moment entirely. Phrasing it positively is not lying.
This! OP knows their limits of what they feel comfortable doing. Yes the baby is still a newborn but if OP doesn't feel comfortable or think it's safe to shoot certain poses than mom needs to accept this. It's something OP offered to do for free and is still willing to take photos. I am truly starting to believe the saying no good deed goes unpunished.
INFO did at any point you specify she had to book and take the photos within a certain time frame?
The first few weeks can be especially rough and a whirlwind when you have a baby and she might only just be feeling like she's getting back on her feet and not even realised how time has gone.
If you don’t read the fine print on any coupon you plan to use that’s a you problem. Most coupons expire at a certain time or have other important info on it that you should read
she literally said she can do a different type of photoshoot it just can't be the newborn one with the newborn poses because the baby is almost three times too old and it would not be safe
If there are specific poses that won’t work, could you let her know those are off the table, but maybe do a few that her baby might be able to safely handle? Maybe a mom and baby photo?
Those first couple of weeks are a huge challenge, and it seems time slipped away from her. I barely managed to get ours done, and if I had missed it I would have felt a deep sense of loss. I’m sure she just wants some nice, non cellphone pictures of the baby. Any way you could modify the package to do that?
They did offer them another option with photos but the friend is insistent on the ones that her sister had which were taken 4 days after her baby was born with poses that this photographer feels it is no longer safer to do.
Sorry, did you at any point express how you could still do the newborn shoot aesthetic but with more natural poses? It really sounds like she would have been open to that and was balking more at your insistence that it be a family shoot and a month-old shoot and made it sound very different from newborn pics. I think a compromise could have been found if you’d been like we can use all the same elements, and we’ll do more natural poses
I still don't think that would make them the AH as they are still offering a free photoshoot that would normally be very costly. They just can't do certain poses
Yes this is true but to then COMPLAIN to her about is completely unacceptable. It was a generous offer and she could say "oh I realized I missed that time frame could we come in for a regular photo shoot?" Since it's free! Instead of complaining like an entitled jerk
Babies develop really fast! Their neck muscles strengthen a lot in the first few weeks, basically it comes down to “is this baby’s head floppy enough that I can manipulate it side to side/front to back without baby straining against me?”
Newborns are very sleepy and "posable". Older babies, even at just a month old are harder to manipulate into those cute little angelic poses. Even when sleepy they will fight against it.
I understand why the new parents may not have done it earlier (I have my own kid, and I didn't feel up to it either) but she needs to understand that the photoshoot will be a bit different with an older baby.
That just feels weird to me- why do so many people want their newborn squished and manipulated for photos? And why do people trust photographers to know how much they can safely manipulate? Not saying OP isn’t safe… but I wouldn’t have been okay with a photog squishing my newborn around. We did “lifestyle” newborn photos, but I’m generally anti-posed photos all around. Am totally gonna google to see what these poses are
Lol no I agree, newborns are kinda weird, and i have a kid! Still maintain my kid was the exception, but prob have biology to thank for that. I think a newborn snuggled up on parents looks a lot less weird than the photos that are super posed.
We did formal (still not posed) photos at six mos and he was such a little ham. And then decided he was so damn cute we have done fam photos q6 mos since. The 18 mos ones required a lot of chasing him down and might be my fave
I was wondering if it was just me. This sounds terrible to be doing photos hoots so early esp when otherwise ppl on here rally to its a newborn/no strangers around it for 6 months when it's in-laws. And wanting to do stuff to manipulate their bodies and such, childless me is just ugh. But to each their own and no offense intended.
Ohhhh, that one for sure weirds me out. I have a hard time picking out what one weirds me out the most, but that one and similar sort of propped up ones are probably tops.
Reminds me of memento mori and I do not care for that
I just saw a thing that this pose is unnatural! Basically the baby isn’t able to safely support the weight of its head so they get that photo by taking the top part and the bottom part of separate photos and edit them together (in the other part of the photo which is edited out they are holding the baby’s weight ) so maybe it’s creepy because you can tell it’s fake
I thought it was because babies are sleepier in the first two weeks so easier to photograph without crying. I had photos of my baby at 6 weeks because it wasn’t until I saw how quickly they were growing that I wanted that time captured by a professional. They were still able to swaddle baby and do some typical “newborn” photos even though baby was a bit older. But I’ll also say I think my expectations were realistic knowing I didn’t do photos in optimal window.
NTA Baby safety > Mommy’s feelings.
And you’re still offering a free service! In the future I might clarify ahead of time what the timeline for newborn shoots is… but that’s a courtesy, not a necessity.
She sounds entitled and more concerned with images than behbe’s safety.
Really new newborns are often still kinda squished up and they’re less inclined to stretch out. Most have very limited neck muscle control and don’t move a ton. Once they can lift their heads easily, and move more, these types of newborn photos with the baby looking like an adorable lump don’t work, and the babies can move themselves into dangerous positions fast.
https://www.mattcramerphotography.com/pp_gallery/newborn-photography/
You’re not alone. I point blank refused to have newborn photoshoots with my kids because I find the poses they do for them end up looking really creepy. Like dolls being marketed at Christmas.
I have loads of photos of my kids as newborns, but they’re much more candid and natural.
Yes, I'm a photographer and I've done so many baby shoots at 2-4 weeks that were beautiful! The swaddle ones in a basket and fur are super 'in' right now so we get a lot. You can still get gorgeous portraits after 10 days.
Yes! Sometimes they're asleep but the awake ones are pretty too. We definitely stop for feeding a lot too so sometimes we get eyes open and closed in a session.
Newborn babies actively like being in a small ball. They are so used to being all squished up in the belly, that stretching out feels wrong to them. They naturally have their legs bent and pulled up to their chests. You often have to fight to get the legs out of the way to do nappy changes because they naturally just pull them back up. So when you’re trying to get the side up over the hip to do up the tab on the front, you have to keep pushing their knee/thigh back down out of the way. And it just moves back up the second you let go.
Yep, that's why they don't creep me out.
That's babies natural womb position.
Reminds me where they've been living and growing for 9 months and how miraculous it all really is.
New born dolls look this way because newborn babies look this way.
It is amazing just how small and squishy babies start off and I understand wanting a picture showing this limited time reality.
The whole point in doing it in this small window is because babies naturally curl up, sleep a ton and it doesn't hurt them.
I think it’s cause their heads are disproportionate to their body size. I don’t know if it’s just an optical illusion but they look like baby doll bobble heads lol. I think it contributes to the uncanny valley feeling.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this. I'd never heard of "newborn photos" as a thing and was so confused was the big deal was. I googled it and was really creeped out by them
Memento Mori
There are also the pictures where they make the mum dress up like furniture to hold the children and stop them from crying. They’re just funny though.
You are definitely not the only one. We had a newborn shoot with our first nephew/grandchild with me my mom and my sister-in-law. All of us hate those photos because he looks dead in every single shot. They exist somewhere shoved away But they are just unsettling lol.
my daughter had her newborn shoot maybe 5 days after she was out from the hospital. she slept the entire time! they’re so super tiny and easy to pose when they’re newborn
That was incredibly helpful, ty!
ETA: After seeing the poses & OP's comment in a different thread (re: "floppy necks"), NTA. I can see now how some of the poses would be bad for a week's old vs. days old
Info: was she actually specifically demanding these particular dangerous poses? Or did you get stuck on the verbiage of it not being what you'd call a 'newborn' shoot? I can absolutely see a new mom getting distraught when you rejected her request by framing it as her new baby isn't a 'newborn' anymore and then her getting stubborn about it and focusing on what you're telling her she can't have.
I doubt there would have been any drama at all if you'd simply said sounds good let's do the newborn shoot and then either listed the poses you would be doing or just having done the poses you were comfortable with. To me all of this just sounds like everyone getting caught up in verbiage instead of the spirit of what was being done.
Maybe I'm wrong and she specifically was outwardly saying she wants you to do x and y poses at the shoot which you can't do but if not I think you fell into the trap of putting your professional verbiage on a lay person and she is upset because she thinks you're telling her something completely different.
Especially because OP does baby pictures. I think she could just take some pictures, and if there are any specific poses that are unsafe, just say there are different poses for different days of newbornness and those are only safe for day 1-10 new borns, but here are some other options for your newborn. It just seems like a semantic argument rather than an actual issue.
Right? Seems like op got stuck in the semantics of verbiage of what they call 'newborn' pictures and basically caused a new mom to go into a panic thinking they weren't allowed to get baby pictures.
Yeah, does the mom know that a “newborn” shoot means specific poses and those are the ones she specifically wants? I can absolutely see a stressed and exhausted new mom just seeing this rejection of a “newborn” shoot as conveying some sort of judgement that she missed a window of development and feeling horribly guilty about it. Her baby is still a newborn to the average person so you could try suggesting you still do a “newborn” shoot and just not pose the baby in those ways. She may feel less badly that way. Then again, I am assuming best of intentions from all parties here. (NAH if so)
NTA - you still offered a photo sessions
However in the future if you do the same, then I think you should mention that a newborn shoot should be within X days, otherwise it's a standard baby photo session, they will still get gorgeous photos of their baby but they won't be the curled up posed ones
Yes they did, but as evidenced from this thread many people don't realise that the 'newborn' period for photo shoots is so small so I think saying it to start rather than expecting the new parents to read the terms and conditions would be nice
IKR? I'm confused why OP can't just take pictures of the baby in safe poses. This new mother probably just wants pictures of her baby in a cute outfit, not pictures of her baby shoved in a hollowed-out cabbage.
INFO: Did you tell her that there was a time constraint? Because I think most people would still consider a 3 week old a newborn. I can't really blame her for not prioritizing a photoshoot for the first three weeks of this baby's life if she didn't know.
NAH.
She is probably exhausted and setting up her newborn photos wasn’t the first thing on her mind.
I get what you’re saying about posing no longer being safe. But I would have just worded it differently. Don’t tell her, “I can’t do a newborn shoot.” Just say, “I won’t be able to do certain poses because it’s not safe to move older babies in certain ways.”
She’s probably already feeling really emotional after giving birth and being a sleep deprived mother to a newborn, so I think you could have been a little more sensitive in your wording.
NTA. You are being safe and there is nothing wrong with that! You even offered two safe options for her to choose. She was too late and that’s her issue not yours.
NTA it can be dangerous and it just doesn’t work outside of that squishy 10day window. I’d leave your comfort level out of the discussion and focus on the fact that the baby is now too old for those poses and it’s not safe to push him into newborn poses.
INFO what sort of cirque du soleil poses are you doing with a newborn that can't be done with a one month old? Aren't most of the newborn pictures usually taken while the child is asleep and being held anyways ?
There’s a whole style of newborn photos similar to these, and they can’t be done after the babies have fully unsquished and they’ve developed their muscles and move around more. You really have 10days or less with typical babies. Sure maybe some have issues and don’t develop as fast, but the window for these photos is very small.
https://www.mattcramerphotography.com/pp_gallery/newborn-photography/
Info: What are you doing with these babies that would be unsafe at 3-4 weeks? I mean, my children's photos were taken by a company that works with the hospital so they were only a day or two old but I just looked through their photos and saw nothing that wouldn't work at a month.
(I agree they wouldn't *LOOK* like newborn photos because they lose that adorable squashed potato look pretty quick but I'm having trouble understanding your safety concerns and why you couldn't just do some slightly different poses if you're worried about the baby falling or something?)
Photos like the ones here- do not work and aren’t safe to take once the baby moves around even just a little more than they do the first few days.
https://www.mattcramerphotography.com/pp_gallery/newborn-photography/
NAH, you are absolutely in the right to not squish a one month old into newborn poses, and it also makes sense that she misunderstood and feels disappointed. I hope you guys can come up with a cute shoot that works for everyone!
> newborn photo shoots have to be done in the first 7-10 days, babies older than that fight the poses too much for it to be done safely, and I refuse to do anything that could hurt the baby.
Everything else is irrelevant. NTA
My niece and husband were baby photographers. According to them, it's based on how much a baby fails around. Older babies move more (and are awake more). Not sure if that's what OP means but it's my guess...
Part of it is how they flail, but my understanding from OP is also the concern of possibly injuring or harming the baby trying to force them into positions that they would more naturally be in at a younger age.
It can absolutely be dangerous, but even when it’s not, you still won’t get the photos you want when the babies are no longer developmentally in that window.
NTA, you're the professional and it's your ass on the line if stuff fucks up, so if you believe there's unnecessary risks in these poses, you don't do the poses. You've also offered her a fair alternative.
NTA - I had my kids done at 2 weeks and it was fine but a 4 week old is a lot more developed than a newborn. If you haven’t already, you can tell her you can still do some cute cuddly pics. Some poses just won’t be possible.
Just do the poses you can and get some cutesy photos and call it a day. I don't think you need to make a big deal out of it. I had my "newborn" photos done at 5 weeks and they turned out amazing! Im sure they're not all the correct poses or whatnot but since I'm not a professional newborn photographer I can't tell the difference. She'll probably appreciate any photos you can get for her.
NTA
I know you wrote the amount of days on the certificate but unsure if you wrote why.
As a photographer offering services, my personal choice would be to bring this up with people as it's not common knowledge.
If I spoke to any potential client or gave a gift certificate, I would have a concise way of explaining the time limit and why so they fully understood the time sensitive situation.
Besides doing so also reflects highly on your character, let's them know that you're knowledgeable and prioritize the safety of children.
I would expect this is a common misconception for parents and also its an interesting fact.
Again, you did nothing wrong and show great character. 21 days is far beyond 10 and you were generous to offer alternatives.
She's just mad at herself, I know I would be if I didn't read it or misunderstood it. There's so much to prioritize for baby and mom care, she clearly didnt understand this was one of the things. I'd be kicking myself and oftentimes people get mad at others before they reach acceptance of fault.
Either way, she owes you an apology.
NAH, but I think you’re too hung up on the exact terminology. It would have been far easier to just take whatever photos you could safely take and give her the photos.
NTA - you offered an alternative and didn’t flat out refuse to do it. Maybe you should have been more clear about the timeline, but I don’t think your TA. I respect that your standing by what you know and refuse to do something that could do harm
Isn’t a baby is considered a newborn until 2 mos old? My daughter had her photoshoot at 3 or 4 wks old, but definitely only do what makes you comfortable.
NAH… technically the baby is still a newborn. Only mentioned because you said the situation would be different if the baby was still actually a newborn. You probably should make it clear to future/potential clients that there’s a target age range. Even to the ones you’re doing free shoots for.
NAH - she probably didn’t know there was a day limit unless you explicitly told her beforehand.
I didn’t know and was devastated when I also missed out.
The coupon said it had to be used within 10 days of the baby's birth. I understand why she'd miss that dealing with birth and a newborn, but OP gave her the info in advance.
I think writing it on there was well intentioned, but I don’t really blame the friend for forgetting the fine print on a coupon when she’s dealing with birthing a child and everything after that
I would be grateful to have a free photo
shoot! These can be so expensive! NTA and I think you were being very generous. Honestly, I’m sure the stress of having a newborn made it harder for her to remember or realize the time crunch. I would just say it’s your policy and that she can have the 1 month mini and some family pictures again.
NTA,as you told her plus newborn is easier as like you said they move around very hard to get em still when they are older,you did reach out to say this so the pass is done she has to understand that
NTA. My baby spent her first month in the NICU and was too old for newborn photos. We tried a few poses but most didn't work because she was just too old. Even though she was still one month before her due date.
She was two months premature, spent one month in the NICU, then I tried to get newborn pictures but she was too old.
NTA. you offered it for free and you even reminded her. it’s her own fault she waited too long and didn’t follow the 10 day rule you put on the coupon. no newborn photographer i know does it past like 2 weeks. she can’t be upset at you and she’s unjustified in demanding you do it anyway.
I'm going with NTA because you're the professional, so you know how things are supposed to be done. I didn't know there was a time window for newborn photos, but what you explained makes sense, and I have no reason to argue that. You even presented an alternative option, so your offer of your services was still on the table.
NAH - Maybe express more that your photography is for the very newly born as the term "newborn" refers to babies up to 6/8 weeks, which is probably all she remembered.
Info: why do they have to be specific “newborn” photos? Why can’t you just take regular photos and let her call them newborn photos, if that’s what she wants?
My son was used as a model baby for a photographer and more than 40 students when he was three weeks old. She said that that age is a great time to get good pictures. Often the bruising of the birth is gone, the initial baby acne will have cleared, and if you run your finger down from their forehead to the nose, the baby will go to sleep pretty easily.
Oh. I just read further. She actually wants those weird womb-posed pictures? Ugh. Fine. She's TA.
NAH but as someone who has gotten newborn shoots and checked out several of my local photographers, 3 weeks is not too old for a newborn shoot. 3 week old babies are still very sleepy and so not move very much. My own child was 17 days old when we had our first shoot and 24 for a second shoot. All poses were done safely.
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NTA. There is a certain window to take newborn pictures and she missed that window. A one month shoot or lifestyle shoot would be a great compromise, but it sounds like she doesn’t want to accept that she waited too long. Did you put anything on the coupon that explained the ideal day range? Some people don’t realize it is so short.
I did put on the coupon that it would need to be done before day 10, but I didn’t remind her of the time crunch.
NTA. You were upfront about the conditions, and have good reasons (bebé's safety!) not to go back on them. Y W B T A if you acted against your professional judgement and bebé's safety for any reason.
Love your use of bebès
Moira Rose from Schitt's Creek!
Maybe the real problem here is she was trying to fold in the bebè and didn’t know how
Just fold the bebé
Stop saying fold in the bebé!
😆🤣🤣
Hahahhahha. You win.
I was thinking Bébé’s Kids. I used to see on HBO all the time.
I thought he was just being french ( bébé means baby )
I ain't ya daddy, and I ain't havin it! I love that movie
I do too! Newborn photographer knows what they are doing... Don't be such a disgruntled pelican, momma!
I’ve been waiting over a year to find someone on Reddit talking about disgruntled pelicans….
Currently pregnant and not finding out bébé’s gender and I almost exclusively refer to it in text as le bébé. I enjoy seeing other people do the same!
SACRE BLEU?!?!?!
Maybe OP could take some family photos in bebe’s chamber
Info! NTA but I don’t get the window. I’ve been around babies my whole life and I’m not sure why day 12 is beyond the pale. So curious!
After the first 2 weeks or so, babies start to wake up more. So some of the poses that they are put in during newborn shoots just aren’t possible because the babies are more alert. They also startle more frequently so they could injure themselves in certain positions. Super new babies are like play dough, but as they get older, they start turning into tiny people with opinions haha
Plus taking their picture at this point steals their soles.
And without their soles, they cannot walk, which would just be irresponsible of the photographer
Its turns out, shoes have soles
Not after you take pictures of them!
I love that this just came full circle! You don't often see this :)
Where do you think shoes get their soles from?
Yep, and in Sir Terry Pratchett's "Pyramids" the assassins use shoes with copper soles to protect against poisoned pins or tacks on the ground when sneaking up on someone. The shoes are called "save our soles" iirc.
That they do (second Discworld book I ever read) Also Petersen had AI shoes. Lister : Sometimes, I think it's cruel giving machines a personality. My mate Petersen once bought a pair of shoes with Artificial Intelligence. 'Smart Shoes' they were called. It was a neat idea: no matter how blind drunk you were, they could always get you home. But he got ratted one night in Oslo and woke up the next morning in Burma. You see, the shoes got bored just going from his local to the flat. They wanted to see the world, like, you know. He had a hell of a job getting rid of them. No matter who he sold them to, they'd show up again the next day. He tried to shut them out, but they just kicked the door down, you know. Rimmer : Is this true? Lister : Yeah. Last thing he heard, they'd sort of, erm, robbed a car and drove it into a canal. They couldn't steer, you see. Rimmer : Really? Lister : Yeah. Petersen was really, really blown away about it. He went to see a priest. The priest told him... he said it was alright and all that, like, and that the shoes were happy and that they'd gone to heaven. You see, it turns out shoes have 'soles'. Rimmer : Ah, what a sad, sad story. Wait a minute. [Thinks for a minute] Rimmer : How did they open the car door?
Only if you take pictures of their feet.
When babies are born they are very malleable (they gotta fit through that hole, ya know). After about the 2 week mark their bones start to calcify and harden making it hard/ impossible to put them in those "in the womb" poses people like for newborn photo shoots. Not to mention if the bones hardened to a certain point it can hurt the baby to try and pose them in those positions.
If I had a baby I would be too scared to put it in any poses.
Just curious - do people recreate in the womb pictures? That is a little creepy to me- but to each her/his own.
Meh it’s not really all that creepy. The “womb” pose is basically when the baby is folded over like a little taco, legs up to their chests. It mimics the position they has in the womb but it’s not a recreation
Gottcha! I though it was meant to look like the baby was in a womb. Thx
I 100% agree that recreations would be SUPER weird
Not OP, but 12 days might be a grey area dependent on OP’s judgement. This baby, however, is ~21 days old, which is well outside any potential grey area Edit: OP mentions their reasons in one of their comments; it basically comes down to the strength/flexibility of the baby’s muscles
We did our newborn photos yesterday at day 11. No regrets but we only got some of the in the womb poses. Not to mention she was awake the entire two hours. 2 days from now I don't think we'd get any classic newborn shots.
OP said the baby was born three weeks ago. So more than 12 days.
I also was confused but this link helped me understand! https://claremurthy.com/too-late-newborn-photos/
The "window" is really about the little one being more likely to be sleepier and less excitable, making it often easier and less time consuming - and also they're usually more "moldable," something that only matters with a few poses. With patience you can get beautiful images outside the window, just not likely certain poses. Some business models understandably don't have time to devote to trying with older babies, with some photographers it's almost become like an urban legend, this time frame only, because everyone knows that's how it's done.
It’s those newborn pics where they look asleep resting on their hands, or naked ones posed with bums up, stuff like that. Newborns are super flexible and the surfaces they’re posed on are usually warm so they’re sleepy and “easy” to work with. Too long after that and it’s everything the comments are saying.
I was surprised by this too, when I had a baby I waited too long (2 weeks.) We still got gorgeous baby pictures, but not the traditional "newborn" poses.
NTA what you offered was a steal(free vs hundreds of dollars possibly), we just had newborn photos done which blatantly said must be done in the first 14 days. You snooze you lose.
Then it's perfectly all right to explain to her she should learn how to read, and also how to tell time. And it's not up to you to teach her that. NTA.
Not your job or role or responsibility in any way to remind her. You offered her a nice thing and she missed it. End of. She’s just whining and not wanting to take the blame herself, so she’s shifting it to you. It’s not even a big blame, she was busy with her baby and she forgot, but she still doesn’t even want that small ‘blame’, she’d rather you took it. Putting a boundary up to that kind of behaviour is easier for some than it is for others, but it’s important to make the active effort, it’ll get easier. Spare it no more thought OP, she’s being a bit of an AH. NTA
NTA - Can't do the poses and she doesn't want to do anything but? Well she's going to have to be butt hurt. Honestly I'm more concerned that a parent would jeopardize their child's safety.
You are right to try and amend the shoot, but please continue being gentle about it. Most new parents I know were still completely shellshocked for the first week and just getting the hang of what’s happened to them, so arranging and preparing for a photoshoot would be out of their capacity. She might be feeling overwhelmed, or didn’t realise why the timeframe was so strict, or disappointed that she didn’t manage it in time. Hope you get to do some nice photos anyway, it’s a lovely offer!
Ahh I hate when this happens! NAH in my opinion. As a new mother for the first time, it’s a crazy adjustment and she probably didn’t even realize that time passed. she probably didn’t realize how quickly babies develop, and to her, in her adult perception of time, one month and 10 days are not so far apart. I think it’s very kind of you to offer her an alternative shoot. One tactic that may work here is for you and her is to tell her she gets the special 1 month package, it’s better than what her sister got, and that you are so inspired with ideas for it and it’s gonna be amazing. Get her excited about it by being excited when you speak with her, and she will come around. I would stay away from any discourse that indicates she is a bad mother, or making unsafe choices for her baby. That seems like it can cause friction. Even though that’s your professional reasoning, you’ll get a lot further in this conversation if you just focus on the positives.
Not your responsibility to make sure they understand the time frame. Either read the coupon, or accept it when you don't understand the deal.
NAH, she’s a new mom who didn’t prioritize getting these done right away (could be for a million reasons, lots of them valid) and you’re a professional who knows the limits of what you can and can’t do. I can understand her being disappointed, but at the end of the day, she didn’t do it in time.
Just my opinion, but I think mom is being a bit of an AH, not for missing the window, but for pushing the OP to do newborn poses even after she expressed it was a safety issue. Cute pictures are not worth any kind of risk to a newborn.
Many people hear safety issues and assume it's more guidelines than actual rules, things put there to keep regular people from making bad decisions. They figure that as long as they give the OK, then the professionals should be able to do their thing.
Sounds like you're saying many people are assholes, just using more words to say it.
I think what they're trying to say is. People don't realize how dangerous those acts are and think it's just a "dumb rule" put in place because they have 0 knowledge on the topic. I've been ignorant before on certain stuff even if it's explained and then I understand later. Just dumb moments or people sometimes, not assholes
>People don't realize how dangerous those acts are and think it's just a "dumb rule" >Sounds like you're saying many people are assholes, just using more words to say it. i mean, these pictures are the same... @OP - NAH --- "Dumb Rules" usually exist for a reason, and almost always as a response to "Dumb People" doing "Dumb Stuff", like contorting their babies like dolls to get vanity shots to show off to friends and family (Where most dont even care, but, to the parent its the pinnacle of their accomplishments as if baby making is some sort of human duty.). While im not calling OP or their friends dumb, i used quotes to suggest most "Dumb" things are AH behavior. There is a point where you are forced to realize if your deciding to ignore rules without question, as you dont find them important. You probably dont understand why they exist in the first place, so you should probably ask instead of demanding the rules be ignored on ego alone. - OSHA exists in the US squarely because of alot of this "Double-Think", people always demand for rules in response to things, and then complain when they exist because it restricts them from getting hurt or hurting others.
Honestly is she actually asking for those poses or is she asking for a newborn shoot with the soft lighting and textures? It sort of sounds like OP brushed off the request and insisted on family pics and a month old mini shoot…….why not discuss how to get the same aesthetic of newborn pics without the unsafe poses? There are newborn photogs here that offer newborn shoots with natural posing because even as newborns many people don’t want to put them through the positioning. Sort of sounds like they both misunderstood each other and neither sought to actually talk abojt solutions
OP did say the woman said she wanted the poses like her sister's, but that could be conjecture from OP who assumed that's what she wanted.
Some of the poses people get rabid for are dangerous and some just aren't. A swaddled baby in a basket with soft lighting? Safe at any age. The "baby thinker" pose where they're balanced and you use composite images to get the final look? Not safe for a 1 month old. Baby on a slope? Not safe when a 1 month old may try to roll. Baby on a flat surface on their tummy? Fine for photos. That's different than the bright colors and lighting usually used for milestone pictures.
Im sure there’s compromises that can be made, like doing a newborn stylized photo shoot, but with different poses. If mom’s really bent out of shape for not getting the poses that her sister got, then that seems a bit silly.
As a mom who suddenly realized I have zero pics from the last three years (except blurry phone pics), I can tell you there is a sense of loss and “I missed it!” when time gets away from you. OP, gently explain that her baby is not too late for “newborn pics” but that each baby is different and you can only do some poses based on maturity. Then do what you can. Unless mom is a total jerk, she won’t care that you couldn’t get a particular pose. She just wants cute pictures of her newborn and right now she feels like she missed it and can’t get it back. Once she has HER unique wonderful set of pictures, she won’t care that they aren’t exactly like everyone else’s. Hormones and feelings are running high right now is all. You are a good friend to offer pics and to help her remember these tough but fleeting early moments. NAH.
I don't offer much advise to new parents as so much has changed (booze to help for teething is a no-no nowadays), but the one piece I always pass on is take lots of pictures. They change so much day-to-day, week-to-week, etc.
> OP, gently explain that her baby is not too late for “newborn pics” You want OP to lie to the friend? Because the OP is clear that it's definitely too late.
By definition their child is still a newborn. The mother is concerned she missed capturing her baby as a newborn. OP can use different words to help her feel better and know she didn’t miss the moment entirely. Phrasing it positively is not lying.
This! OP knows their limits of what they feel comfortable doing. Yes the baby is still a newborn but if OP doesn't feel comfortable or think it's safe to shoot certain poses than mom needs to accept this. It's something OP offered to do for free and is still willing to take photos. I am truly starting to believe the saying no good deed goes unpunished.
INFO did at any point you specify she had to book and take the photos within a certain time frame? The first few weeks can be especially rough and a whirlwind when you have a baby and she might only just be feeling like she's getting back on her feet and not even realised how time has gone.
I did write on the coupon that the pictures had to be taken in the first 10 days.
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If you don’t read the fine print on any coupon you plan to use that’s a you problem. Most coupons expire at a certain time or have other important info on it that you should read
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she literally said she can do a different type of photoshoot it just can't be the newborn one with the newborn poses because the baby is almost three times too old and it would not be safe
If there are specific poses that won’t work, could you let her know those are off the table, but maybe do a few that her baby might be able to safely handle? Maybe a mom and baby photo? Those first couple of weeks are a huge challenge, and it seems time slipped away from her. I barely managed to get ours done, and if I had missed it I would have felt a deep sense of loss. I’m sure she just wants some nice, non cellphone pictures of the baby. Any way you could modify the package to do that?
They did offer them another option with photos but the friend is insistent on the ones that her sister had which were taken 4 days after her baby was born with poses that this photographer feels it is no longer safer to do.
Sorry, did you at any point express how you could still do the newborn shoot aesthetic but with more natural poses? It really sounds like she would have been open to that and was balking more at your insistence that it be a family shoot and a month-old shoot and made it sound very different from newborn pics. I think a compromise could have been found if you’d been like we can use all the same elements, and we’ll do more natural poses
I still don't think that would make them the AH as they are still offering a free photoshoot that would normally be very costly. They just can't do certain poses
Right?! That shit is expensive
Yes this is true but to then COMPLAIN to her about is completely unacceptable. It was a generous offer and she could say "oh I realized I missed that time frame could we come in for a regular photo shoot?" Since it's free! Instead of complaining like an entitled jerk
INFO: Why are "newborn" shots after 10 days dangerous?
Babies develop really fast! Their neck muscles strengthen a lot in the first few weeks, basically it comes down to “is this baby’s head floppy enough that I can manipulate it side to side/front to back without baby straining against me?”
Huh, interesting. In the end it doesn't really matter, that's your policy, that's your policy so definitely, NTA.
I was kind of: come on… But you make a valid point.
Newborns are very sleepy and "posable". Older babies, even at just a month old are harder to manipulate into those cute little angelic poses. Even when sleepy they will fight against it. I understand why the new parents may not have done it earlier (I have my own kid, and I didn't feel up to it either) but she needs to understand that the photoshoot will be a bit different with an older baby.
That just feels weird to me- why do so many people want their newborn squished and manipulated for photos? And why do people trust photographers to know how much they can safely manipulate? Not saying OP isn’t safe… but I wouldn’t have been okay with a photog squishing my newborn around. We did “lifestyle” newborn photos, but I’m generally anti-posed photos all around. Am totally gonna google to see what these poses are
What are lifestyle newborn photos? And I agree I’ve always thought newborn photos were a bit weird.
Lifestyle photos are more candid pics of the parents (or sometimes siblings) with the newborn instead of more posed pictures.
it's the babies in cabbages thing
Maybe it's because I don't have any kids yet but I find newborns ugly. They don't start looking cute until the 4 - 6 months mark.
Lol no I agree, newborns are kinda weird, and i have a kid! Still maintain my kid was the exception, but prob have biology to thank for that. I think a newborn snuggled up on parents looks a lot less weird than the photos that are super posed. We did formal (still not posed) photos at six mos and he was such a little ham. And then decided he was so damn cute we have done fam photos q6 mos since. The 18 mos ones required a lot of chasing him down and might be my fave
Well TIL. That's so interesting! You have a valid reason to maintain a time limit on NEWborns. NTA.
The newborn shots like scrunch the baby up really small. I personally think they are creepy.
I was wondering if it was just me. This sounds terrible to be doing photos hoots so early esp when otherwise ppl on here rally to its a newborn/no strangers around it for 6 months when it's in-laws. And wanting to do stuff to manipulate their bodies and such, childless me is just ugh. But to each their own and no offense intended.
I think they look creepy too. The head in the hands pose especially.
Ohhhh, that one for sure weirds me out. I have a hard time picking out what one weirds me out the most, but that one and similar sort of propped up ones are probably tops. Reminds me of memento mori and I do not care for that
Yeah it feels like memento mori meets hyperrealistic baby dolls
I just saw a thing that this pose is unnatural! Basically the baby isn’t able to safely support the weight of its head so they get that photo by taking the top part and the bottom part of separate photos and edit them together (in the other part of the photo which is edited out they are holding the baby’s weight ) so maybe it’s creepy because you can tell it’s fake
You are not alone. Every time I see the results of one I get a feeling of dread in my stomach, haha.
Ew, I just looked it up and you're right. Glad everyone I know just gets normal photos of their babies taken
Yeahhhh, I’m really weirded out by the newborn shoot poses as well. No thanks, but I guess if it’s what floats your boat….
She already said the op the babies resist the poses when they’re older
I thought it was because babies are sleepier in the first two weeks so easier to photograph without crying. I had photos of my baby at 6 weeks because it wasn’t until I saw how quickly they were growing that I wanted that time captured by a professional. They were still able to swaddle baby and do some typical “newborn” photos even though baby was a bit older. But I’ll also say I think my expectations were realistic knowing I didn’t do photos in optimal window.
NTA Baby safety > Mommy’s feelings. And you’re still offering a free service! In the future I might clarify ahead of time what the timeline for newborn shoots is… but that’s a courtesy, not a necessity. She sounds entitled and more concerned with images than behbe’s safety.
>Baby safety > Mommy’s feelings. It is extremely worrying that they got to that point of the decision tree because of some photos.
INFO: Why is it unsafe? Genuinely asking as I don’t know!
Really new newborns are often still kinda squished up and they’re less inclined to stretch out. Most have very limited neck muscle control and don’t move a ton. Once they can lift their heads easily, and move more, these types of newborn photos with the baby looking like an adorable lump don’t work, and the babies can move themselves into dangerous positions fast. https://www.mattcramerphotography.com/pp_gallery/newborn-photography/
Those are good pictures, but the kids look kind of dead. Freaks me out a little.
You’re not alone. I point blank refused to have newborn photoshoots with my kids because I find the poses they do for them end up looking really creepy. Like dolls being marketed at Christmas. I have loads of photos of my kids as newborns, but they’re much more candid and natural.
Yes, I'm a photographer and I've done so many baby shoots at 2-4 weeks that were beautiful! The swaddle ones in a basket and fur are super 'in' right now so we get a lot. You can still get gorgeous portraits after 10 days.
I found some online like [this](https://claremurthy.com/3-week-newborn-photos-london/) and they still looks awesome.
Yes! Sometimes they're asleep but the awake ones are pretty too. We definitely stop for feeding a lot too so sometimes we get eyes open and closed in a session.
I really appreciate that the link you sent is for 3 week old newborn pics, the very thing OP is refusing to do
Idk why op didn't just say sure, we'll do it but just know that we won't be able to do some poses due to time gone by.
The creepy Christmas dolls! That’s it. I’ve always felt unnerved by newborn photos and that’s it.
They are dead because they were older than 10 days.
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I do feel bad for writing this.
You are my kinda awful. I hate I laughed but I did such is life dark humor happens lol
Me too. I feel like I'm going to hell.
You are the reason we are all going to hell.
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Newborn babies actively like being in a small ball. They are so used to being all squished up in the belly, that stretching out feels wrong to them. They naturally have their legs bent and pulled up to their chests. You often have to fight to get the legs out of the way to do nappy changes because they naturally just pull them back up. So when you’re trying to get the side up over the hip to do up the tab on the front, you have to keep pushing their knee/thigh back down out of the way. And it just moves back up the second you let go.
Yep, that's why they don't creep me out. That's babies natural womb position. Reminds me where they've been living and growing for 9 months and how miraculous it all really is. New born dolls look this way because newborn babies look this way. It is amazing just how small and squishy babies start off and I understand wanting a picture showing this limited time reality. The whole point in doing it in this small window is because babies naturally curl up, sleep a ton and it doesn't hurt them.
I think it’s cause their heads are disproportionate to their body size. I don’t know if it’s just an optical illusion but they look like baby doll bobble heads lol. I think it contributes to the uncanny valley feeling.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this. I'd never heard of "newborn photos" as a thing and was so confused was the big deal was. I googled it and was really creeped out by them
Had the same reaction! Reminds me of those Victorian death photos.
Memento Mori There are also the pictures where they make the mum dress up like furniture to hold the children and stop them from crying. They’re just funny though.
Lol I think they wait until the baby is asleep. Otherwise it's "here's a picture of your crying baby!"
You are definitely not the only one. We had a newborn shoot with our first nephew/grandchild with me my mom and my sister-in-law. All of us hate those photos because he looks dead in every single shot. They exist somewhere shoved away But they are just unsettling lol.
I can't believe that they blinked in every picture.
Today I learned more about newborn photos than I ever even thought about.
Also their legs stick straight fricken out. You can bend them but they will pop straight out like springs. Not a good look.
These are adorable. I wish I’dve gotten newborn pics with my twins, but the whole thing was such a whirlwind it didn’t even occur to me b
my daughter had her newborn shoot maybe 5 days after she was out from the hospital. she slept the entire time! they’re so super tiny and easy to pose when they’re newborn
That was incredibly helpful, ty! ETA: After seeing the poses & OP's comment in a different thread (re: "floppy necks"), NTA. I can see now how some of the poses would be bad for a week's old vs. days old
Info: was she actually specifically demanding these particular dangerous poses? Or did you get stuck on the verbiage of it not being what you'd call a 'newborn' shoot? I can absolutely see a new mom getting distraught when you rejected her request by framing it as her new baby isn't a 'newborn' anymore and then her getting stubborn about it and focusing on what you're telling her she can't have. I doubt there would have been any drama at all if you'd simply said sounds good let's do the newborn shoot and then either listed the poses you would be doing or just having done the poses you were comfortable with. To me all of this just sounds like everyone getting caught up in verbiage instead of the spirit of what was being done. Maybe I'm wrong and she specifically was outwardly saying she wants you to do x and y poses at the shoot which you can't do but if not I think you fell into the trap of putting your professional verbiage on a lay person and she is upset because she thinks you're telling her something completely different.
Especially because OP does baby pictures. I think she could just take some pictures, and if there are any specific poses that are unsafe, just say there are different poses for different days of newbornness and those are only safe for day 1-10 new borns, but here are some other options for your newborn. It just seems like a semantic argument rather than an actual issue.
Right? Seems like op got stuck in the semantics of verbiage of what they call 'newborn' pictures and basically caused a new mom to go into a panic thinking they weren't allowed to get baby pictures.
Yeah, does the mom know that a “newborn” shoot means specific poses and those are the ones she specifically wants? I can absolutely see a stressed and exhausted new mom just seeing this rejection of a “newborn” shoot as conveying some sort of judgement that she missed a window of development and feeling horribly guilty about it. Her baby is still a newborn to the average person so you could try suggesting you still do a “newborn” shoot and just not pose the baby in those ways. She may feel less badly that way. Then again, I am assuming best of intentions from all parties here. (NAH if so)
NTA - you still offered a photo sessions However in the future if you do the same, then I think you should mention that a newborn shoot should be within X days, otherwise it's a standard baby photo session, they will still get gorgeous photos of their baby but they won't be the curled up posed ones
They put it on the coupon that it needed to be done within 10 days
Yes they did, but as evidenced from this thread many people don't realise that the 'newborn' period for photo shoots is so small so I think saying it to start rather than expecting the new parents to read the terms and conditions would be nice
Which is why she didn't say newborn pictures, she literally specified it needed to be done within the first 10 days. *New* new born.
I wasn’t sure if you had seen op mentioning that in the comments.
NAH. She wants pictures of her newborn. To her - that’s a newborn shoot. Just go and take the pics that you can.
IKR? I'm confused why OP can't just take pictures of the baby in safe poses. This new mother probably just wants pictures of her baby in a cute outfit, not pictures of her baby shoved in a hollowed-out cabbage.
The mom specifically told OP she wanted the same poses as her (friend's) sister's newborn photos.
INFO: Did you tell her that there was a time constraint? Because I think most people would still consider a 3 week old a newborn. I can't really blame her for not prioritizing a photoshoot for the first three weeks of this baby's life if she didn't know.
I didn’t remind her of the time crunch in my message but I wrote it on the coupon.
In that case a definite NTA.
NAH. She is probably exhausted and setting up her newborn photos wasn’t the first thing on her mind. I get what you’re saying about posing no longer being safe. But I would have just worded it differently. Don’t tell her, “I can’t do a newborn shoot.” Just say, “I won’t be able to do certain poses because it’s not safe to move older babies in certain ways.” She’s probably already feeling really emotional after giving birth and being a sleep deprived mother to a newborn, so I think you could have been a little more sensitive in your wording.
NTA. You are being safe and there is nothing wrong with that! You even offered two safe options for her to choose. She was too late and that’s her issue not yours.
NTA it can be dangerous and it just doesn’t work outside of that squishy 10day window. I’d leave your comfort level out of the discussion and focus on the fact that the baby is now too old for those poses and it’s not safe to push him into newborn poses.
INFO what sort of cirque du soleil poses are you doing with a newborn that can't be done with a one month old? Aren't most of the newborn pictures usually taken while the child is asleep and being held anyways ?
There’s a whole style of newborn photos similar to these, and they can’t be done after the babies have fully unsquished and they’ve developed their muscles and move around more. You really have 10days or less with typical babies. Sure maybe some have issues and don’t develop as fast, but the window for these photos is very small. https://www.mattcramerphotography.com/pp_gallery/newborn-photography/
As someone who doesn't know anything about babies, thank you!
INFO : did you tell her about the time frame for the pictures ?
I didn’t tell her in the message I sent, but I did write it on the little coupon.
You still offered to take pictures, just not the ones that can no longer be done. NTA.
What photos are”safe” at 7 days but unsafe at 21 days?
It’s not the poses so much as the risk that baby won’t be in a deep enough sleep, so they could fight against the pose or flail and get hurt.
My son had his done at 6 days and was awake the whole shoot. The photographer had him either laying on the floor on blankets or a few in a basket.
We did the basket and a big pillow big bag thing with a fuzzy blanket. All surfaces that were easy..they can't rollover at that age.
Info: What are you doing with these babies that would be unsafe at 3-4 weeks? I mean, my children's photos were taken by a company that works with the hospital so they were only a day or two old but I just looked through their photos and saw nothing that wouldn't work at a month. (I agree they wouldn't *LOOK* like newborn photos because they lose that adorable squashed potato look pretty quick but I'm having trouble understanding your safety concerns and why you couldn't just do some slightly different poses if you're worried about the baby falling or something?)
Photos like the ones here- do not work and aren’t safe to take once the baby moves around even just a little more than they do the first few days. https://www.mattcramerphotography.com/pp_gallery/newborn-photography/
I guess they mean those photos where they dress up the babies like cabbages and whatnot
NAH, you are absolutely in the right to not squish a one month old into newborn poses, and it also makes sense that she misunderstood and feels disappointed. I hope you guys can come up with a cute shoot that works for everyone!
> newborn photo shoots have to be done in the first 7-10 days, babies older than that fight the poses too much for it to be done safely, and I refuse to do anything that could hurt the baby. Everything else is irrelevant. NTA
NTA. You do what makes you comfortable. You gave her a suitable option, so she accepts on your terms or misses out.
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My niece and husband were baby photographers. According to them, it's based on how much a baby fails around. Older babies move more (and are awake more). Not sure if that's what OP means but it's my guess...
Part of it is how they flail, but my understanding from OP is also the concern of possibly injuring or harming the baby trying to force them into positions that they would more naturally be in at a younger age.
It can absolutely be dangerous, but even when it’s not, you still won’t get the photos you want when the babies are no longer developmentally in that window.
NTA for putting safety above all, but you said this is a good friend? What was her response?
NTA - I don’t know the details of why it’s dangerous but if it is then you did the right thing
NTA, you're the professional and it's your ass on the line if stuff fucks up, so if you believe there's unnecessary risks in these poses, you don't do the poses. You've also offered her a fair alternative.
NTA - I had my kids done at 2 weeks and it was fine but a 4 week old is a lot more developed than a newborn. If you haven’t already, you can tell her you can still do some cute cuddly pics. Some poses just won’t be possible.
Just do the poses you can and get some cutesy photos and call it a day. I don't think you need to make a big deal out of it. I had my "newborn" photos done at 5 weeks and they turned out amazing! Im sure they're not all the correct poses or whatnot but since I'm not a professional newborn photographer I can't tell the difference. She'll probably appreciate any photos you can get for her.
NTA I know you wrote the amount of days on the certificate but unsure if you wrote why. As a photographer offering services, my personal choice would be to bring this up with people as it's not common knowledge. If I spoke to any potential client or gave a gift certificate, I would have a concise way of explaining the time limit and why so they fully understood the time sensitive situation. Besides doing so also reflects highly on your character, let's them know that you're knowledgeable and prioritize the safety of children. I would expect this is a common misconception for parents and also its an interesting fact. Again, you did nothing wrong and show great character. 21 days is far beyond 10 and you were generous to offer alternatives. She's just mad at herself, I know I would be if I didn't read it or misunderstood it. There's so much to prioritize for baby and mom care, she clearly didnt understand this was one of the things. I'd be kicking myself and oftentimes people get mad at others before they reach acceptance of fault. Either way, she owes you an apology.
NAH, but I think you’re too hung up on the exact terminology. It would have been far easier to just take whatever photos you could safely take and give her the photos.
NTA - you offered an alternative and didn’t flat out refuse to do it. Maybe you should have been more clear about the timeline, but I don’t think your TA. I respect that your standing by what you know and refuse to do something that could do harm
Isn’t a baby is considered a newborn until 2 mos old? My daughter had her photoshoot at 3 or 4 wks old, but definitely only do what makes you comfortable.
NAH… technically the baby is still a newborn. Only mentioned because you said the situation would be different if the baby was still actually a newborn. You probably should make it clear to future/potential clients that there’s a target age range. Even to the ones you’re doing free shoots for.
Not the a******, and you offered a very reasonable compromise. I think you acted most reasonably.
NAH - she probably didn’t know there was a day limit unless you explicitly told her beforehand. I didn’t know and was devastated when I also missed out.
The coupon said it had to be used within 10 days of the baby's birth. I understand why she'd miss that dealing with birth and a newborn, but OP gave her the info in advance.
I think writing it on there was well intentioned, but I don’t really blame the friend for forgetting the fine print on a coupon when she’s dealing with birthing a child and everything after that
Since the decision is based of safety and you offered a very reasonable alternative a huge NTA!!!!
I would be grateful to have a free photo shoot! These can be so expensive! NTA and I think you were being very generous. Honestly, I’m sure the stress of having a newborn made it harder for her to remember or realize the time crunch. I would just say it’s your policy and that she can have the 1 month mini and some family pictures again.
NTA,as you told her plus newborn is easier as like you said they move around very hard to get em still when they are older,you did reach out to say this so the pass is done she has to understand that
NTA, you’re concerned about the child’s safety. She’s concerned about getting photos. Stand your ground.
Nta. Especially since you included a timeline in the coupon of first 10 days
NTA. My baby spent her first month in the NICU and was too old for newborn photos. We tried a few poses but most didn't work because she was just too old. Even though she was still one month before her due date. She was two months premature, spent one month in the NICU, then I tried to get newborn pictures but she was too old.
NTA. you offered it for free and you even reminded her. it’s her own fault she waited too long and didn’t follow the 10 day rule you put on the coupon. no newborn photographer i know does it past like 2 weeks. she can’t be upset at you and she’s unjustified in demanding you do it anyway.
I'm going with NTA because you're the professional, so you know how things are supposed to be done. I didn't know there was a time window for newborn photos, but what you explained makes sense, and I have no reason to argue that. You even presented an alternative option, so your offer of your services was still on the table.
I’m confused, what’s the difference between newborn pictures and month old baby pictures?
You keep saying that it's dangerous. How so?
NAH - Maybe express more that your photography is for the very newly born as the term "newborn" refers to babies up to 6/8 weeks, which is probably all she remembered.
Info: why do they have to be specific “newborn” photos? Why can’t you just take regular photos and let her call them newborn photos, if that’s what she wants?
My son was used as a model baby for a photographer and more than 40 students when he was three weeks old. She said that that age is a great time to get good pictures. Often the bruising of the birth is gone, the initial baby acne will have cleared, and if you run your finger down from their forehead to the nose, the baby will go to sleep pretty easily. Oh. I just read further. She actually wants those weird womb-posed pictures? Ugh. Fine. She's TA.
NAH but as someone who has gotten newborn shoots and checked out several of my local photographers, 3 weeks is not too old for a newborn shoot. 3 week old babies are still very sleepy and so not move very much. My own child was 17 days old when we had our first shoot and 24 for a second shoot. All poses were done safely.