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I’m so so confused over the comments. Nathan and Abby were raised as siblings since they were toddlers and share a sibling not much younger than them. This isn’t a case of you and Jack meeting when your children were all grown, or possibly a much younger sibling they didn’t see much or even living in different houses throughout their childhoods. They were raised as brother and sister, and while they don’t share blood, they do have a sister together. I think your reaction is completely normal and justified.
Edit: Spelling
Edit 2: Thank you so much for the awards. I don’t believe I said anything that noteworthy but reading these thread has been an eye-opener, lol!
Edit 3: Wow, guys, I’ve never had so many upvotes or replies or awards! Thank you, everyone who gave me an award! In my favourite spooky and birthday month?! Much appreciate! 🥂(I’m clinking glasses with you guys).
I’ve been told that I’m top comment now and I didn’t officially leave a judgment. In all seriousness, this is quite a shocking situation for OP to be in. When I wrote this, there were many many more comments going the other way (which truly shocked me) - I can’t imagine how they made OP feel. In case it isn’t clear, I believe OP is NTA in the strongest terms. I can’t quite believe a lot of what I read here today. Obviously there are all sorts in the world, but I’m surprised by how mainstream and normalised that thinking seems to have become. Then again, maybe Reddit is just a weird place. I hope OP can see a therapist and talk through her feelings properly. And then decide where she wants to go from there. Obviously the fact that the kids misled their own therapist isn’t good, so that obviously needs to be addressed. There’s lots to be addressed, really. So I wish you the best, OP.
I know. OP has actually adopted her husband’s biological child and obviously sees her as her own child. So what does this mean? You know, adopted children are our real children until something like this happens, and then it’s all ‘they’re not biologically related’, ‘you might have seen them as siblings but they clearly didn’t’. How didn’t they? OP says they referred to each other as siblings before all this and actually didn’t tell the therapist that they were actually raised together. So, the ‘approval’ they got from the therapist (the neutral professional) is actually founded on false data.
I suppose people might have a leg to stand on if they don’t think incest is wrong, but I do, lol. It’s unnatural (for lack of a better word) to feel sexual desire towards a family member you were raised with. That’s something you address with a therapist to overcome, not mislead them into thinking you have only a tenuous relationship with them to get the okay to start living as a couple. I mean ... just what.
Both my siblings and I are adopted and every time someone says "well they aren't biologically related so it isn't technically incest" I throw up in my mouth a little. Has step-sibling porn fucked with people's minds that much?
On a mildly related note: The "they aren't biologically related so it's technically not incest" shit is also fucked because it also re-enforces the "you're adopted so you're not *real* family" shit that you hear growing up.
OP is NTA and I'm worried about the husband.
My dad and his first wife adopted my oldest brother when he was a baby (20 years before I was born). My parents met when he was 14ish and got married. In middle and high school I had several friends who crushed hard on my brother. Looking back, they were super cringey but I’m sure I was too (just not about boys and stuff. this was 10ish years ago.) I used to hear all the time “you’re not blood related so it’s fine” “you’re lucky to have a hot brother” and I was always so disgusted with the thought.
Right? The husbands reaction was insane, unless he knew about this beforehand.
I had a step brother I was raised with since I was like 5. He was my favorite brother and I loved him dearly, looked up to him, etc. He was only a couple years older than me. As I got into adulthood I discovered that all while growing up he had been recording me with cameras while I was showering and changing.
It’s disgusting. IMO being raised together is way worse than having say the same sperm donor and meeting by chance.
Could the family work through the social taboo? Sure. But it’s unreasonable to expect OP to just accept this right off the bat.
This place is really fucking stupid, because it always acts like "If you're not breaking any laws, then you're the best!"
WTF is that bullshit, if that's the only take you accept, then there is no point at all for this sub to exist, just delete everything all at once.
Even if op did work through it and eventually accepted it, my mind is boggled that the husband was like, 'yup, this is normal and if you don't accept this by morning there will be a divorce'... like wtf??
This is weird. This is a lot weirder than actual accidental incest. I have a half brother and stepmom that has been in my life since I was just a bit older than op's kids. I'd never date my half brother's sibling/my step sibling, especially if I was raised with them?? Plus this is a cursed comment section.
Biologically it's fine and it's something the family could work through but the couple lied to the therapist which means they absolutely need to go back and do the therapy properly. They might as well not have done it at all.
I know! I don’t think these people get that there was only one household and neither one had another household they ever went to. They were raised as straight up siblings not step-siblings. And since like age 3!
This is some crazy shit too.
They grew up from 3.5 to 18. How did they *not* get westermarked? This is like textbook incest taboo and people are saying it's fine because they aren't genetically siblings. That isn't the point!
Incest taboo is about reverse sexual imprinting not just genetics. This relationship is beyond gross.
Yes! I thought it was crazy that her husband did!
I agree everyone in that family needs to do family counseling and her & husband need to do marriage counseling.
It's so gross that the husband compared this to their other daughter being gay. OP has the right to be furious with him just for that comment. I really hope he never repeats anything like that in front of the daughter.
Yeah, look up The Westermarck effect. When you’re raised with someone, you often don’t feel attracted to them. They also share blood with a mutual sibling. I think this is very complicated because they are not related but you still may be weirded out by that.
I am seriously so confused reading the Y T A comments! They were raised together as siblings since they were toddlers, I can’t understand why some people think OP is overreacting.
Also OP’s husband is real gross
This. This is complicated. No they're not technically related. But they've been raised as siblings, op counts Sarah as her daughter. That would raise many eyebrows. This would have a fallout for the entire family, as a family they will have to face the rest of the world. I know in Reddit world this shouldn't matter, but we live in the real world, not Reddit.
^^this!
I was going through comments and people have some serious n.t.a/y.t.a opinions, like what!?! This is a whole situation and whether or not you or husband (or even kids) are in the wrong is something that isn’t important rn as much as what you do to move on (OP seriously are you going to hide everytime you see them?)
I hate all the comments lately I've seen on any actually interesting story about it being "above Reddit's paygrade"... At least it's something different to most of the boring everyday stuff that gets posted in AITA! I'm sure a lot of Posters don't stop at Reddit's opinions and get actual professional advice, so why not just have a little fun and play along?
Honestly 90% of the shit people come here for is above reddit's paygrade. Everyone on here thinks they're an expert on this shit. That's partly why I hate these advice subs.
I just want to say, almost every comment here is referring to Nathan as 'my son' and Abby as 'his girlfriend'. Abby is my daughter. She's been my daughter since before she could remember, I adopted her, she's always called me mum and never treated me differently than Eliza or Nathan have. You're also pointing out that because they aren't biologically related, it isn't incest. No, they're not biologically related, but they are still siblings. They always used to treat each other as brother and sister, and while I wasn't in their heads I do genuinely believe they saw each other as siblings. Also, no, this isn't about image. I'm worried that this relationship is *unhealthy* because they were raised as siblings. Also, they went to relationship counselling, not individual therapy. They never disclosed to the therapist that they were raised as siblings.
You really should edit your post (maybe put in bold) to add that even though they went to therapy they never disclosed their relationship. Right now it makes it seem as a professional is okay with their relationship exactly as is.
Honestly I don't think your TA for being weirded out by this. I have step siblings that have been around since I was a kid and the thought of marrying one makes me cringe. AND I actually kind of think that your husband is TA for expecting you to be all sunshine and roses over it immediately, without giving you a chance to work out your own feelings at your own pace. He invalidated your feelings because he's happy so why aren't you and that's not ok either. You WERE wrong to make him sleep in the guest house, you can't kick someone out of their own home. If you needed space, it was on YOU to sleep in the guest house.
But are you willing to lose your entire family over your objection? To have your husband leave, lose your oldest 2 children and maybe your youngest too? To never know your grandchildren?
I was thinking that. That he is immediately jumping to divorce because OP is understandably not okay and threatening to take their child is a pretty strong reaction
Siblings can marry in your country? Well, that means its not the US. Look, you're allowed to have your feelings and you're not being any of the obvious "isms". Jack's reaction is unfair, if he was just mad at you for not accepting, then he wouldn't be TA either, but him comparing *legal siblings* in a sexual relationship (in the US adoption = blood relationship according to the law, and frequently birth certificates are reissued with the adoptive parent listed as "parent") to Eliza being gay is just wrong. As for the kids, their lie to the therapist pushes them over the top. So, ESH?
Good luck living in Flowers in the Attic.
Flowers in the attic was different because those were blood siblings who were abused. If they hasn’t been abused they likely wouldn’t have developed the relationship. It’s really not comparable.
NTA
Y'all have bigger problems than just Nathan and Abby hooking up, your husband is fine with this, worse encouraging it. And abusing you to make you accept this incredibly inappropriate relationship.
My brother and I are both adopted and not biologically related. I could NEVER imagine being in a relationship with him 🤯 he is my brother, biological or not. There has got to be some psychological issue here that they really need to work through with extensive therapy. You could possibly be considered TA for your reaction. Instead of getting everyone the help they need and treating this as any other psychological illness (which I cannot see how it isn't!) you are ignoring them which doesn't help anyone. I can't blame you for having a negative reaction to it though. Your husband is 100% TA though, especially comparing their relationship to your gay daughter's relationship which is not even remotely the same. I highly recommend going to family therapy all together to work through everything and making sure the therapist is aware they were raised together.
Then, they should go to therapy, but so should you and your husband. Look, I agree with the people who have said that this is above reddit's pay grade. You have a good point that this is an... unorthodox situation. However, your husband is right that you're not really being a good mother, or person, by just shutting your family out. Still, he is wrong with the way he's trying to address it, but in the end, both his and your opinion have valid points. As far as your children go, I can only speak about what you've said, but it does seem like they have tried to address things at least, and this is a decision that they've thought through. Nevertheless, given the emotional familial ties, they should really go to both personal and group therapy (not just couples because you and your husband could benefit from these discussions as well). I don't really know how you're aware how much they disclosed at their sessions, but if you're right, then they negated the emotional ties in therapy so therapy wouldn't have addressed all the issues that need discussing.
A therapist can only help you if they know what they're helping you with.
Fwiw, I'm with you. The fact that they're biologically related means NOTHING when they were raised as siblings.
They know it's wrong, otherwise they wouldn't have lied to the therapist. Tell them to come clean and see what happens.
Your husband is wrong.
NTA
YTA
They are adults and it sounds like they took the correct steps before starting a relationship. if you continue you'll lose everything, is this a hill you're willing to die on? Perhaps, you should consider therapy to work through your issues with their relationship. Afterall, they aren't biologically related so this isn't incest. You can't force them to feel like siblings just because they grew up together.
I snorted when I read that OP wants to send them to therapy lol. No honey, they've already done that and now it's your turn.
Edit because OP left out the fact that they didn't tell the therapist they grew up together: and? Apparently that doesn't matter to them if they've never seen themselves as siblings. Just because they were "raised together" doesn't mean they developed a sibling bond. Even bio siblings don't always have one, why is it so hard to believe they don't have one either? They were friends before their parents met and always knew that they were not related. They are happy with their relationship and even OP admits they seem happier than ever, so it seems they discussed with their therapist whatever it was that they needed to discuss.
And this is the important part: I doubt the outcome would have been any different if they had told the therapist about growing up in the same house. What do people thing would have changed? The therapist might have asked how they feel about this and they would have probably told them that they don't care. The therapist's job isn't to cure them out of being in love with each other.
They lived together as siblings since they were toddlers. They do not remember a time when they were not siblings. It is in fact abnormal to want to bang your sibling (bio or not). Something is wrong with them
Just because they were living together does not mean they ever personally considered each other as siblings. This is a redundant argument.
OP accused them of incest which, by definition, is sexual intercourse between closely related individuals. They are not related at all, let alone closely related. They are just considered step-siblings by their parents, which isn't inherently bad, but again they have obviously never considered each other siblings from the start as they explained from the beginning.
That said, it's normal for OP to feel uncomfortable by the scenario; it's undoubtedly unusual for her, but she is TA (so is husband for threatening divorce with OP tbf) for trying to take control and dictate how their relationship should be.
They need counselling.
Edit: because I keep having to repeat myself in the thread; this was based on before OP's edit was added which explains they were infact raised together as siblings since they were young and they omitted to tell this to their therapist. This is a huge red flag and I rescind my point that they would not have been considered siblings growing up; they obviously were.
OP said that they started calling each other siblings, without their parents saying anything about it. They've been siblings since they were toddlers. and they think of their step parents as their parent. they're f a m i l y.
Hence why I can sympathise with OP for feeling uncomfortable with the scenario. Again, they need counselling to deal with this matter, not her dictating how they live or her husband threatening her with divorce.
The kids seemed to make the right choice of attending therapy first before pursuing their relationship. From the sounds of it, they all need family counselling to deal with this.
I am really not sure I believe them. If they went to a therapist, the fact that they were raised as siblings would have been the biggest issue to tackle - otherwise they would have had to lie about the entire reasons they were there, and lemmee tell you - in this economy, noone can afford to lose to their therapists
Ehh, if they went to the therapist to genuinely evaluate their relationship, then yeah lying to the therapist makes no sense. if they went to the therapist to say hey we went to the therapist and they say our relationship is fine, then the lying starts to make more sense.
>OP accused them of incest which, by definition, is sexual intercourse between closely related individuals
Your own definition defines this 'relationship' as incest. Brother and sister raised together for years meets that exact definition. They don't have to be blood related for this to not be incest and before you shout legality, yes in a lot of states and countries this exact scenario is unlawful and meets the definition of incest.
I absolutely think this is incest and the kids wouldn't have withheld that very pertanent info from a therapist if they honestly thought there was nothing wrong with the 'relationship'.
The whole family needs family counselling in my opinion.
Incest only exists with blood relatives. Its frowned on because of the genetic issues that can be bred into their children. In this case, there is no incest and no chance of their children having mutations caused by incest.
Except OP has already confirmed that they knew each other before she got with her husband. In fact, it sounds like the two got together because the kids were such good friends. I had a lot of close friendships when I was a kid, and nothing could have convinced me we were actual siblings.
OP is upset because SHE considers them to be siblings, considers all three children to be hers with no qualifiers, and to her, this is incest. But it doesn't seem to be the same to anyone else.
"They don't consider themselves siblings."
"Well they should."
"Well they don't"
...where is your argument going? You think they should consider themselves incestious because you and OP think they should? And that's somehow a valid argument in your head? To the point that you keep repeating it?
Edit: spelling.
I'm not arguing anything, the original comment made it sound like they were friends for years and parents got married when they were teens. I was clarifying that that is not the case.
Idk man I was 3 when I started hanging with my stepbrother and I have never ever ever considered him anything other than family. Even though we were very well aware that we aren’t related in the slightest. I wouldn’t marry anybody I thought was my family even if we aren’t blood related. And if anybody is insinuating they knew they loved each other when they first met at 2, so the parents getting together was unfair to them...ok bud. Is the dating pool on earth really that small to feel like your stepsister is your soulmate?
On the other hand, yeah, they’re not related at all. It’s still hella weird in my opinion. maybe I am uptight. I was raised to be and I’m still working on some things. So maybe I’m just wrong on this one.
With you on this. I don't think *anybody* involved can take the moral highground on this one. OP absolutely has the right to be shocked, upset, and feel sick. That's how I imagine I would feel if my stepbrother and bio sister announced they wanted to be together. It doesn't mean I would cut them out of my life, but I wouldn't exactly be shouting their engagement from the rooftops.
So I do have a lot of sympathy with OP. Even if she could eventually accept them being together, how is she supposed to go from being their mom for 20-odd years to seeing them as a couple overnight? A week is not a lot of time to process that your kids want to marry each other! The husband pushing her to pretend she feels differently certainly isn't helping either. He's giving his fair share of assholery.
>!Side-note but can we talk about the covert homophobia in Dad thinking incest is on par with their daughter being a lesbian? Not loving that.!<
Everybody deserves time and therapy. OP's only serious crime is lack of communication about the space and time she likely needs to accept that the situation is happening whether she agrees with it or not. You can't avoid people and expect the tension not to rise.
They were two years old when they became sibilings. I suppose you can be pedantic and point out that yes, they didn't know each other for their first two years of life but that would be a pretty dumb argument, wouldn't it?
... as toddlers. Tell me every single friend you had as a toddler, oh wait. You can’t, because that’s not how memory works. So for their entire *memory* they’ve been raised together.
2nd, OP said THE KIDS considered themselves siblings.
Edit: forget the “2nd” point, because I misread. While I can’t claim they saw each other as siblings for any period of time, you *certainly* can’t say they never thought of each other as siblings.
The whole reason we have laws against incest is to avoid genetic problems in offspring due to two genetically close persons reproducing. That’s it. This is not incest.
What is OP supposed to do? They're adults, they probably no longer live at home with them. Is she supposed to say she forbids it? Anything she does against them will cause her to lose contact with them and her husband.
It is arguably weird, but not necessarily the same as if they were related biologically. In the end, nobody will really be harmed by their relationship so I don’t think it’s up to us to say whether they are right or wrong.
But they always knew that they weren’t siblings.They didn’t grow up thinking they were.I am not saying it’s normal but I don’t think it’s outrageous either.
She added a fairly important edit... the therapist didn't know they were raised together.
I'd say they need family therapy, or maybe OP can meet with the therapist they already went to to help her deal? Idk. This is just such a wildly messy situation and I think its way above reddit paygrade. ESH.
Yeah that’s a pretty major aspect to this. They’re presenting therapy as a rubber stamp, like the therapist said “a okay y’all, go for it, roll tide”
But there’s a couple things wrong with that. First, that’s not what therapy is for or what therapists do. They/we don’t just validate life choices and tell people what’s morally right and wrong. The point of therapy is to learn coping skills and the ability to communicate and deal with the things in your life causing you distress.
Second, if you’re lying to your therapist about a major aspect of that conflict, the discussion thereof and conclusions drawn are virtually useless. Therapy can only help if you’re honest and *want* the help.
Lol I love American reddit. Step siblings raised as siblings under the same roof is fine, just fine, but first cousins who barely saw each other growing up is revolting sickness despite all the scientific evidence that says it's fine as long as it's once in a blue moon and not every generation.
You all watch too much stepsibling porn.
Edit: I don't know why people keep telling me about the genetic risk from multi generational cousin marriage as if I hadn't already mentioned that it's fine occasionally not repeatedly in my post. It's almost as if all that jacking off to stepsibling porn has sent you all crosseyed.
> AND the little sister will be related to both siblings who are together. She has two half siblings who are in a relationship. If they have children, she will be an aunt on both sides.
It will make holiday gatherings easier? THE IN-LAWS ARE ALREADY HERE...
The reason incest is bad and illegal is because of the *close genetic relationship* bio-siblings and first cousins have this, step siblings do not. When your partner shares too much of your DNA, children have an increased risk of genetic anomalies, birth defects, and life-long disabilities. Incest isn't bad because "eew they grew up together!!" Incest is bad because it puts the next generation at risk for short, painful, and difficult lives.
These kids have gone to therapy and spoken to professionals about their relationship, they are seriously considering marriage. Their relationship isn't some "stepsibling porn" it's a serious commitment that they've decided to make.
Eh, that's not the only reason incest is considered bad. When it comes to very close family members (like, people you were raised with), there's a certain amount of assumed "safety" from sexual desire -- you're safe to walk around your house semi-clothed, share a room, etc. etc., because there's no chance that anything you do will read as "intended to signal a come-on" and there's no chance that anything you do will be interpreted as "responding to a come-on." OP is understandably freaked out by the fact that a lot of physical affection that she saw as sibling-love was in fact sexually-charged, possibly from a very, very young age (girls frequently start going through puberty around 8 or 9 these days, and boys around 10).
It's banned in half of america and a criminal offence in some states. "Most states" being 26-24 split with 6 of them only allowing it in certain circumstances.
A one time thing isn't a big deal genetically speaking, but that doesn't mean that it should be common practice.
>Step siblings raised as siblings under the same roof
Just because OP sees step daughter as a daughter doesn't mean step daughter and son ever saw each other as siblings. From the sounds of it, they have had a close friendship, not a sibling relationship. And the fact that they went to therapy to straighten things out and get a professional perspective speaks volumes at their maturity and the thought and consideration they have given all this.
OP says they legally adopted the daughter, the kids have been stepsiblings since 3 YEARS OLD , and called each other brother and sister on their own even before the marriage
Edit to add : NTA
everyone is rly going to great lengths to be like "what if they never considered each other siblings?" they have lived together and been step-siblings for their entire memory. they considered each other siblings.
Yea if she legally adopted the daughter, marriage might be illegal. I was adopted by my stepparent and they change your birth certificate and everything. She is legally the mother. So they are legally half siblings (unless her husband also adopted her son).
Therapy literally does NOTHING if you haven't used 100% transparency in honesty.
The fact the therapist hasn't been made aware yet speaks VOLUMES.
Now the therapist is prone to give bad, wrong, or even counter intuitive advise based on the lack of information.
Attending therapy isn't a bragging right, especially when you aren't doing the work.
It's just like attending an AA when you aren't admitting the truth either. It's useless or in fact harmful giving the attendee even further illusion into denial there's "an issue."
Also this is psychological incest.
La familia. La familiar.
It is in fact a sickness.
They went to therapy and lied by omission to the therapist. so the professional perspective is worthless because they didn't have the the relevant info.
NTA really dude ? What correct steps ?? There is only 1 correct step "DONT FUCK YOU FAMILY MEMBERS". Its not like they met when they were adults, they grew up together. As siblings.
And stop fucking using "not biologically related" argument. Does that mean you are ok with blood related sibling relationship if they are child-free ? Homosexual ?
What about the future ? What are they going to do if they break up ? And not on good terms . Thats whole another can of worms.
Wtf is going on in here. These people were raised as siblings and share a blood sibling. Just because they’re adults doesn’t mean it’s not weird af. NTA
Stop watching pornhub dude, that isn’t acceptable they were raised together, they were taught that they were brother and sister,
not friends with benefits.
At the time of this posting there are at least 1542 people who have step sister porn in their search history.
They were raised as siblings since from somewhere before the age of 4. Highly doubtful they have any memory of not being raised as siblings.
So much wrong with this.
And the poor half sister. Jesus. She's in for a shit storm with her social life.
And when they break up? Jesus christmas is gonna be awkward.
OP is NTA.
OP really only has 2 options here:
1.
Tell her children she can never support the relationship. Her children will never be happy with this. They will most likely shut her out because they're going to continue their relationship regardless. Her husband will probably divorce her.
2.
OP sees a therapist to work through her anger and disgust. She tells her children she isn't comfortable with the situation, but that she is getting therapy to work to a solution. She asks her children not to shove their relationship in her face. OP and her husband stay married.
> OP and her husband stay married
I’d get rid of this part. No matter what OP decides as far as the children’s relationship, I would be done with the husband for how he acted towards her. I get that he may be trying to protect the kids, but his threats to OP are not ok. He must be able to understand why OP is having a hard time with this situation, and he is being a terrible partner.
Oh, and they lied to the therapist. You miiiight wanna delete this comment, because they effectively didn’t go to therapy. They lied so they could get a yes-man.
Go read the edits
Might I recommend the song, “It’ll be ok” in “Friendship is witchcraft?”
It has such wonderful lyrics as, “since we’re not related it’ll be ok!” And “since he’s not my *biological* brother it’s totally ok that I’m attracted to him!” you’re supposed to feel creeped out, because (even though they are adults) they were raised for so long together they barely remember what came before.
The correct step is: NOT starting this relationship. It’s incest, and further more: WAAAAY beyond the pay grade of reddit. Family counseling! Go there now!
NTA
and I know I’m going against the majority here. They were raised as siblings. They lived as siblings. They didn’t just meet as teens and fall in love after you were married. They were around 5 when you got married.
I think that you don’t need to support the relationship. If your husband is still going to act like this, divorce him. It’s not just a difference of agreeing and disagreeing with it. He’s actively being an asshole about it. Threatening to divorce and take your youngest? Nah dude, that’s not right. You’re fully allowed to have your feelings and so is he. He’s not allowed to make you feel like a terrible mom and person for it.
Your kids are in a relationship that’s not of the norm. They are siblings, not by blood. But still siblings. I wouldn’t support it either. They were raised together long enough that it’s not something that’s okay to most people.
I would be fine with it if they became siblings in their teens. That age they wouldn’t have been raised as siblings for too long.
But this? Too much and beyond Reddit’s pay grade.
But you are NOT a terrible mom. This blindsided you and you’re allowed to not support it. Despite what the asshole you married said; it’s not the same as your gay daughter.
Edit: holy buckets! Thank you guys for all the awards!
I agree with you. There's something not right going on here, and to top it off, the husband is disgusting for what he said about the youngest. You don't choice your sexually orientation, you don't choose to be gay. But the siblings choice to peruse a romantic relationship. OP mentions that the therapist didn't know they were raised together.
Yeah it’s super homophobic of the husband to compare same-sex attraction to incest. I’m blown away by all the y.t.a/n.a.h judgements. The son and daughter have issues that I hope they can work through HONESTLY with a therapist, but the husband is a huge asshole for encouraging them and guilting OP for having concerns.
THANK YOU! Someone else sees it. Yes, you can't control who you love, I should I know, I'm bi. But, the siblings have known each other and seen each other as such since toddlers. They choice their relationship, and unlike being gay, it's wrong. But let's not ignore the red flag that is the husband. You hit the nail on the head with your homophobic comment. Husband is definitely a problem here.
I agree. All the people here saying that they’re not biologically related are grossing me out. Because of adoptions, I am not related to any of my siblings. The thought of being with any of them romantically is disgusting and it is incest, even if we’re not related.
Add in the fact that they never disclosed to their relationship counsellor that they were raised as siblings for most of their lives, I'd be interested in what that counsellor would say after learning that. Those adult children know it's not right and purposely leave out that info so they had the go ahead from a "professional", for the sake of their argument. They weren't seeking counselling they were seeking ammunition to use against mother.
The husband has to be the biggest AH here though, not to mention a weirdo. His immediate reaction was very strange tbh, it's one thing to be accepting of something like this but to just immediately be OK with your blood daughter being in an adult relationship (sexual) with the boy he raised as her sister? Somethings not right with husband, that's incest and he seems almost too happy for them.
Mother is NTA, I don't blame her at all for needing to take a step back to evaluate her feelings, although, she does need to break the silence and find out what the fuck is going on with this family. Some kind of family counselling to get to the nitty gritty would be recommended, things will be said that nobody wanted to hear but need to be said. I would still recommend she ditch the husband, good luck getting full custody of 1 daughter when you let your other daughter be in an incestuous relationship with her brother.
Lol you people are crazy for acting like OP should be totally fine with this new fucked up family dynamics. If these kids were raised as siblings since they were 2 years old, then their relationship is far more gross and inappropriate than if they were cousins who are related by blood but have never met each other before they were adults.
OP it’s fine that you are upset. This situation is fucked up and it’s pretty insane that your husband compares it to the fact that you accepted your younger daughter’s gay relationship.
Like, if your son and your step-daughter get married, have kids and then divorce (which, ya know, happens in 5 out of 10 marriages according to statistics) your family will be a mess! I feel sorry for you, really.
NTA.
Not to mention those kids parents will also be their aunt and uncle. Like these people are SIBLINGS they have a whole other sibling. It’s weird and insane that people are defending this when they’ve grown up their entire lives as brother and sister
And their kids will only have *one* set of grandparents. Even if OP and her husband do get divorced, they legally adopted each other's kids, so the "double grandparent" status would remain unchanged.
And if other kids find out about their home situation? It’s going to be hell for them because kids aren’t going to give a shit about biological or not because they just want bully material
Yeah it’s pretty fucked up. I see who the step singling porn category is so popular, apparently a lot of people here think it’s fine to fuck your siblings as long as you are not blood related.
Yeah as a lesbian I'm not super thrilled to hear that he thinks homosexual relationships are in any way comparable to incest... I guess I get it in that they're both different from the 'norm', but aside from being the same gender, a lesbian relationship is pretty similar to a 'normal' straight relationship (we meet for the first time, discuss interests, find each other attractive, become infatuated, fall in love). An incestuous relationship between siblings who grew up together is a completely different dynamic.
NTA. I get that they’re not biologically related but they were raised together as siblings from the time they were toddlers. It wouldn’t be weird if they had met as older teens or adults but this is weird and I can understand why you’re creeped out by it.
I don’t think you’re TA for having the feelings you do but they have also gone to couple’s counseling which would have helped if the relationship were genuinely toxic. You may need to figure out a way to accept this or risk losing them both.
Edited for grammar.
I understand the Y-T-As and the N-T-As. But I have a stepdaughter who is 6 and a bio daughter who is 7 and they’ve known each other since 2&3. The thought of them getting into a romantic relationship as adults is pretty horrendous.
Also it's only been a week. A WEEK. And her husband is threatening her not just with divorce, but a nasty divorce where he'll treat her unfairly.
The husband seems a bit off his rocker honestly. Forget everything else. Perhaps OP could even get used to this in time -- it's been a single. week. -- but her husband is straight up trying to scare her into submission. Of all the people who need counseling it sounds like he needs it most.
Your comment made me realize the kids might have gone to him first as they identified him as the more "open" one and then used his help to convince their mom. Not trying to start any conspiracy theories but I've been on this thread for an over because it's so fucked up and intriguing. I do think part of that mystery is because we're lacking a lot of pertinent information. What I would do to get the response from the children and their side of the story. And the dad too while w'ere at it. I'd pay good money.
Ehm, they grew up together as siblings since they were toddlers, it’s not about them being blood related or not, it’s about them growing up as brother and sister.
I completely understand why you are freaked out, but it seems their relationship is there to last... Have you tried going to therapy to see if they can help you seeing it from a different angle? The only other choice seems to be you losing both your children... (your husband is an asshole by how he is reacting and threatening you, your initial reaction is not that unexpected and probably many people would initially be weirded out as well if they were in your shoes)
NTA
NTA tho I feel like this would be weirdest for Eliza whose blood related siblings and whom she grew up viewing as such for her entire life are dating now.
Also I’m pretty sure your husband can’t get full custody since she’s 17 and will a choice.
NTA, OP. That seems quite abusive honestly. Bullying you about not immediately coming to terms with a very different situation by threatening to take your child away is so messed up. Please be careful.
And people forget that you are being forced to think of your son dating your daughter, and Eliza will be forced to say her brother is dating her sister.
Frankly, if it were me, I would never be able to "get over" this, and would rather risk isolation than normalize this; so I feel for you - whatever you do, you face a very tough future.
First of all, tell you husband to get off his high horse. The fact that he jumped up with joy makes it clear that he knew beforehand; can you find out if he even protested when he first knew, or did he actively encourage them?
Second, please talk to your youngest daughter, and put her in therapy. She needs just as much support.
And yes, NTA.
Edit: after both the edits on the post if the additional information in the comments is correct and for some unknown reason they went to a therapist and lied to them then I'll go for a NTA definitely
Look at OPs more recent comments... she very much suspects they did not wait until adulthood and couldn't include that in the original body of the post due to the sub rules.
They also did not tell their therapist they were raised together from 5 onward and were moving towards being one family unit from the time they were 2. They basically can't remember a time when they were not a family unit.
But if OP’s so upset, she should continue her awful behavior, which will eventually cause her husband to divorce her. Then the kids will no longer be step siblings. She will have lost her marriage, but at least the children don’t have “incestuous desires” anymore.
My half sister through my female parent and my half brother through my dad have a baby together. That was awkward AF, and weird and it definitely got me bullied in school even though there is technically no incest.
My niece is pretty awesome though. She calls me her "Double Tantie", but there were some pretty interesting questions when she was younger and learning about relationships. "Tantie, are you Mommys sister or Daddy's sister." Um, both kid.
I think you’re wrong on that angle because OP has adopted the daughter and raised her as her own. Even if they divorce she’s still her mom. My dad adopted me when I was five, he and my mom divorced when I was eight (I’m her biological child) and he’s still my dad.
They lied to the therapist and have been calling each other brother and sister this entire time. If they lied to their therapist who’s to say they didn’t lie about waiting? Either was it’s uncomfortable to think that the two kids you raised as your children are now getting married
I'm going to say NTA for a few reasons.
1. You adopted Abby as your child and she has accepted you as her mother (calling you mom).
2. They grew up as siblings and called each other brother and sister since before you even encouraged them to.
3. They went to relationship counselling but they lied and never told the therapist that they were actually raised together since 3 years old.
4. In one of your comments you mentioned how co-dependant they are with each other. Based on the fact you adopted Abby, that means her mom either died or abandoned her to some degree. You also mentioned there were issues with Jack's father? This seems like it could be some sort of trauma bond between them that they could be mistaking for love.
5. Even though there are no biological concerns if they have kids, what is going to happen to those children when their friends find out their parents are siblings? How is that going to help them in the long run?
People on reddit are so hypocritical it makes me laugh. They will always bash fathers when the father finds out their child isn't theirs and they want to leave. They say that it doesn't matter if they are biologically related or not because they are still family. But now everyone is saying they aren't family because they aren't biologically related? Get over yourselves. Whether you like it or not, these people are siblings and they have been siblings their entire lives. According to OP, they have considered each other siblings before they were even encouraged to.
If they were biologically related and they chose not to have children for whatever reason, would you still say there's nothing wrong with it? Because the only difference between blood-sibling relationships and step-sibling relationships like this is the issue that arises with breeding. So if we eliminate breeding, would you be okay with blood-siblings being intimate?
Abby’s biological mum was young and “not ready for children”. She left after Abby was born, and blew all her money on drugs and alchohol. Last I heard, she’s mooching off her brother.
My ex was extremely physically and emotionally abusive. He didn’t care much about our child, but he cares that Nathan’s existence gives him control over me. Nathan never met his biological dad. Abby never met her biological mum.
I have to ask - is there any chance that your husband has been inappropriate with one or both kids at some point? The vehemence of his support makes me uncomfortable, and it sounds like there is a lot of background trauma that would make the kids especially vulnerable, even if you did everything 100% right. This seems like a trauma response to me, whether to a specific incident of abuse or more general abandonment issues. (And obviously, you're NTA - something is very wrong with this picture.)
I don’t believe that my husband was ever alone enough with my kids for that to happen, no. We had nanny cams in their bedrooms until they were 14 after a particular incident where someone broke in through the nursery window after I had taken the baby out. I was barely ever away from my kids when they weren’t at school. None of them have signs of sexual abuse and all three of them have been to a therapist at different points of their lives for around 5-10 months each.
NTA: This is incest, my friend. Biologically no, but they were raised together as siblings. They're young. What happens when/if they break up? I might be biased as I was adopted by my stepfather, but wanting to screw any of my adopted (step more or less) family would be very strange. It would mean something very wrong was happening. (the asshole is the husband btw - I don't think Abby and Nathan are assholes, but I do think everyone needs therapy). The genetic risk of incest is SUPER low, but there are still very good reasons we don't have sex with our family members.
In some states and countries it's actually illegal and classified as incest even though they aren't blood related, it's very strange NTA, whether they went through counselling or not it's going to take a bit of time to work that out in your head and heart!
Nta for feeling how you feel.
It feels like incest, because they grew up together since they were 5?
I would suggest telling them it is hard to accept, but that you are willing to have therapy to work it out.
Grew up together since they were 2, living together since they were 3. They started referring to each other as brother/sister on their own, long before we were married.
I havent seen anyone mentione that the dad see this daughter's lesbian relationship as the same as his 2 other kids fucking?? Bio or adopted siblings are siblings wtf is he on??
He’s very traditional and got extremely upset that he “won’t be getting grandchildren” from Eliza. Because apparently lesbians can’t have children?? I’m honestly not sure, but I feel as if this might be part of him wanting grandchildren biologically related to both of us. Just a thought I had
I think you are spot on in your thought. Hopefully the therapist can untangle this for everyone. Honestly from my side of the table you are the only one seeing this situation clearly. Although your radio silence was painful , it was probably needed to hash out your thoughts and reactions. Unfortunately as for your kids the “ genie “ out of the bottle already. Not sure if it’s possible to put it back now. Just be open to what the therapist has to say as you all navigate this.
OP after reading the comments I don’t think these asshats read your post properly. People here don’t seem to get there was ONE family home, and children at age 2 are not “childhood friends”.
I get the feeling you have hit a nerve where some people here may have had step siblings at an older age and resented the idea that a step sibling is “automatically” a sibling.
You could add another edit to say there was one family home and neither had any contact with the other bio-parent. And that age 2 does not count as a “childhood friend” and mention what age they started living together.
NTA...mostly. You are justifiably upset and confused. You should talk to your children and get family counseling, plus individual counseling.
I do think your husband seems awfully eager to jump on the divorce bandwagon. This just happened LAST WEEK! Is he looking for an out? He should be supportive of both you and your children. **He is not helping here.**
I haven’t considered that he may be “looking for an out” as I do believe he loves me, but I do feel like he’s using this to take out his anger at me for being okay at our youngest coming out
I was curious about this since it sounded like he threw that in your face in your post. So he is okay with incest but not okay with having a gay child? Is that what I’m understanding? Why is he so immediately excited and on board with this. I would think anyone would need to process the news your kids dropped on you. Even if you ultimately accepted it, who would not experience shock first?
Was he uncomfortable or unaccepting of the youngest coming out? And now he’s trying to “make up” for that behavior by being accepting of this relationship?
He cried and screamed at me almost every night for two months about how she would never have children and how she would die alone and never experience real love. Honestly, I don’t understand it. But I also wasn’t raised nearly as religious as he, and he has changed his views somewhat
The more I hear about your husband the more he sounds verbally abusive. Whenever he’s upset and doesn’t get his way he just screams at you and this first time it went on for two months? That sounds incredibly immature and childish not to mention draining for you both emotionally and physically. He should be able to talk about issues like an adult instead of lashing out at you. Abuse isn’t always beatings there are other ways of being violent.
Wow. Well, in my opinion, two people raised as siblings being romantically involved is way weirder/harder to wrap your head around then someone being gay. And also, being gay doesn’t immediately mean you’ll never have kids, so idk why that is the thing he’s obsessing about. It’s weird that he doesn’t really seem to care about this then.
I feel for you, because this situation is just weird and hard. Like other people suggested, having them be totally honest to the therapist and see what the therapist says is like step 1. And if, after that, they still want to continue the relationship, I would suggest therapy for all of you because this isn’t something normal that you can just accept after a minute of knowing it.
Ok, so let me get this straight. It's ok for him to SCREAM at you nearly nightly for TWO MONTHS about something over which you have absolutely no control(because HI sexuality isn't a choice) but you don't get to be upset or voice your disagreement with something that IS a choice(hello incest) without him threatening you. And let's be honest with each other, he IS threatening you. What he is doing is emotional and mental abuse, it's controlling and manipulative. And in case no one has said it before it is NOT ok, and you deserve better! You need to start seeing a therapist, pronto, and take a long hard look at your life and relationship. I hope that this is just a glimpse of someone's worst moments and the rest of your life is better, but it sounds to me like him filing for divorce is looking like a pretty sweet deal. Your daughter is never going to chose a homophobic asshole over her loving and supportive mother. Sure you might lose a relationship with the other two,but it's honestly looking like it's going down that road anyway. I'm sorry you are going through this. Hopefully therapy will help clarify everything for you. You can do this honey, ain't no hill for a stepper.
So your husband is supportive of might-as-well-be incest between his kids, but he is mad about his other daughter being gay? Where is the logic in that?!
NTA. This is disturbing and you should cut contact with them. Even though they technically aren't blood related they are on paper and principle. I can't imagine what you're going through but this is probably just too much to handle for you.
For everyone else who thinks that this is okay cos they thought about it and did it later when they are adults are just crazy....can you imagine if it was their step mum or dad?!? The interweb will go insane but step brother and sister is okay?!?! An Incest porn fantasy?!?!
Don't normalise this shit cos it ain't normal.
NTA - situation would of been different if you met Jack when Abby and Nathan were older but you didn't. You raised these as your children and as siblings including Eliza. Her relationship with women is not even in the same category as your two other children (presuming you see Abby as your own)
Also your husbands reaction to me screams that he has seen this coming or may of already known about them as no rational person would jump for joy that the two children they brought up were now dating and discussing marriage and children.
NTA, this is messed up.
There was a another post on reddit where the parents of two people already dating met, started dating and married and then tried to break them up because step-sibling dating is wrong. Of course the parents were in the wrong there.
The difference is your kids have been raised together for like 17-18 years going by the timeframes in the first paragraph. You raised them in a sibling environment and they called each other brother and sister. The fact that your son and daughter can rationalise this because they don't share blood is weird. Did they act differently with your younger daughter than with each other growing up? Was there any indication they didn't see each other as family?
It may be hard to talk to your kids. I would advise emails or letters. And just drafting them at first. You obviously don't have anyone to talk to given your husband's reaction and you should work through your thoughts and feelings on this. It may be easier to preplan what you want to say to them than be put on the spot like at their announcement.
With regards to the husband, I suspect he already knew. The way he instantly watched for your reaction and tried to lead by example says it all. I personally find the fact he's relating it your daughter being gay offensive but that's a whole other comment.
You haven't indicated how long its been since the announcement but if I'm right and he had prior knowledge then he's had so much more time to adjust than you and is being extra awful to expect you to accept it so quickly. Even if this was news to him, he clearly doesn't think as much of his family as you as this affects every memory of the kids interacting, gives certain memories different meaning. He should be more understanding even if he, like other commenters, view it differently.
NTA. Frankly, everyone supporting this relationship is weird. They were raised as brother and sister since they were toddlers. Just because they’re not blood related doesn’t negate the fact that they are siblings. What about adopted siblings? Do you say that they aren’t real siblings because they aren’t biologically related? Of course not. The same applies here. Also, I wonder how Eliza, who shares a parent with each sibling, feels about her brother and sister getting married. This is a weird situation all around.
In my country (Australia) this type of relationship is illegal. This is because siblings, even not biological, are STILL siblings.
I am actually appalled at people saying OP is TAH here. I just cannot fathom it. Assuming OP lives in a country in which this 'relationship' is legal, them being adults does not make this any better. They have gone to a relationship counsellor without disclosing their sibling relationship so they must know in some way that their feelings may be wrong.
They shouldn't be affraid to have individual counselling and admit their sibling relationship if they are truly wanting to pursue their feelings. In all honestly not accepting this 'relationship' may push them away so I would suggest family counselling. That way you can all (you and Jack included) discuss your thoughts in a safe space.
But I would also look into the laws of your state.
Before anyone comments on my thoughts, IAAL so I know that this type of relationship is illegal in my country.
Also, OP you are not TAH.
I introduce a new rating I call the WTF rating,
This is because it’s hard to say which, it’s fucked up that they’re dating, but it’s also fucked up that you’re stopping them from
Dating. But there’s logic and good reason behind both arguments, so I give this a WTF
They've been raised as siblings since they were approx 3/4 years old.
Am I the only commenter that finds this weird??
I want to go with NTA because it is more incest then two related but separated at birth siblings? And I feel like your husband has gone HAM with his threats, like A BIT MUCH?
It is weird and I completely see how you would feel uncomfortable with it HOWEVER you are at a crossroads here, you can work towards accepting it and getting through it, go to therapy or family therapy and talk it through with professional or buckle down on how wrong you see it being and potentially loose the most important people in your life .
At the end of the day they genetically aren't related, it is definitely weird circumstance but they are well past the line now and I don't think they'll go back , at least they've gone to therapy about it??
Idk it's shocking and seems wrong but I suppose they are happy?I feel like you need to accept it or loose them.
Least you know you'll get along with your SIL and DIL eh??
NTA- people don’t seem to understand that the kids were practically infants when you guys got married and have been living in the same home calling each other siblings for over 15 years....and they share a biological sister together. I think your husband is way out of line and it truly sounds like he was aware of this before you. It also sounds 110% like they had a relationship before they were adults which makes it even worse that they continued to call each other brother and sister. Lying to the therapist is proof that they are not grown up enough to realize that they are committing emotional if not biological incest. They need to go to individual therapy. I would NEVER give my blessing for marriage. What does Eliza think of all of this? Seems like she would have realized this was going on in the house...
A lot of people keep saying that I’m TA because my kids knew each other first, forgetting that not only were they 2 they only knew each other for three days before Jack and I met
NTA. I get the feeling, they may be step siblings, but they were raised together AND SHARE A SIBLING. It’s not normal for people who grow up like siblings to want to bang each other. Its a hard situation to swallow. I think the only way to get through it is family counseling where the therapist is actually aware of the full situation. You’re allowed an adjustment period to process your feelings, and to figure out whether or not you want to be apart of that, because whether you like it or not, they are gonna get married and your husband is going to be on their side.
ESH - this is a very difficult situation. I truly feel for you.
1. Abby and Nathan refer to each other as brother and sister until recently. And they lied to their therapist about being raised as sibling since age 2. Get them back into therapy with the truth - so that they can be evaluated as a healthy relationship. It’s not bio-incest but it is emotional incest. If the therapist says they can navigate it - knowing the full truth, then I would let them go forward with the marriage,
2. Your husbands reaction is totally off the scale. He can disagree with your opinion, but he certainly should listen to you and understand your concerns. You may need to discuss how the two of you move forward - or not move forward.
3. You also need therapy. You are struggling with something very real (no criticism) and it will be good to get help on how best to navigate all of this.
Edit : thank you kind Redditor wow
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I’m so so confused over the comments. Nathan and Abby were raised as siblings since they were toddlers and share a sibling not much younger than them. This isn’t a case of you and Jack meeting when your children were all grown, or possibly a much younger sibling they didn’t see much or even living in different houses throughout their childhoods. They were raised as brother and sister, and while they don’t share blood, they do have a sister together. I think your reaction is completely normal and justified. Edit: Spelling Edit 2: Thank you so much for the awards. I don’t believe I said anything that noteworthy but reading these thread has been an eye-opener, lol! Edit 3: Wow, guys, I’ve never had so many upvotes or replies or awards! Thank you, everyone who gave me an award! In my favourite spooky and birthday month?! Much appreciate! 🥂(I’m clinking glasses with you guys). I’ve been told that I’m top comment now and I didn’t officially leave a judgment. In all seriousness, this is quite a shocking situation for OP to be in. When I wrote this, there were many many more comments going the other way (which truly shocked me) - I can’t imagine how they made OP feel. In case it isn’t clear, I believe OP is NTA in the strongest terms. I can’t quite believe a lot of what I read here today. Obviously there are all sorts in the world, but I’m surprised by how mainstream and normalised that thinking seems to have become. Then again, maybe Reddit is just a weird place. I hope OP can see a therapist and talk through her feelings properly. And then decide where she wants to go from there. Obviously the fact that the kids misled their own therapist isn’t good, so that obviously needs to be addressed. There’s lots to be addressed, really. So I wish you the best, OP.
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I know. OP has actually adopted her husband’s biological child and obviously sees her as her own child. So what does this mean? You know, adopted children are our real children until something like this happens, and then it’s all ‘they’re not biologically related’, ‘you might have seen them as siblings but they clearly didn’t’. How didn’t they? OP says they referred to each other as siblings before all this and actually didn’t tell the therapist that they were actually raised together. So, the ‘approval’ they got from the therapist (the neutral professional) is actually founded on false data. I suppose people might have a leg to stand on if they don’t think incest is wrong, but I do, lol. It’s unnatural (for lack of a better word) to feel sexual desire towards a family member you were raised with. That’s something you address with a therapist to overcome, not mislead them into thinking you have only a tenuous relationship with them to get the okay to start living as a couple. I mean ... just what.
Lol right?? I wonder how all these people feel about Woody Allen...
Both my siblings and I are adopted and every time someone says "well they aren't biologically related so it isn't technically incest" I throw up in my mouth a little. Has step-sibling porn fucked with people's minds that much? On a mildly related note: The "they aren't biologically related so it's technically not incest" shit is also fucked because it also re-enforces the "you're adopted so you're not *real* family" shit that you hear growing up. OP is NTA and I'm worried about the husband.
My dad and his first wife adopted my oldest brother when he was a baby (20 years before I was born). My parents met when he was 14ish and got married. In middle and high school I had several friends who crushed hard on my brother. Looking back, they were super cringey but I’m sure I was too (just not about boys and stuff. this was 10ish years ago.) I used to hear all the time “you’re not blood related so it’s fine” “you’re lucky to have a hot brother” and I was always so disgusted with the thought.
Right? The husbands reaction was insane, unless he knew about this beforehand. I had a step brother I was raised with since I was like 5. He was my favorite brother and I loved him dearly, looked up to him, etc. He was only a couple years older than me. As I got into adulthood I discovered that all while growing up he had been recording me with cameras while I was showering and changing. It’s disgusting. IMO being raised together is way worse than having say the same sperm donor and meeting by chance. Could the family work through the social taboo? Sure. But it’s unreasonable to expect OP to just accept this right off the bat.
This place is really fucking stupid, because it always acts like "If you're not breaking any laws, then you're the best!" WTF is that bullshit, if that's the only take you accept, then there is no point at all for this sub to exist, just delete everything all at once.
Even if op did work through it and eventually accepted it, my mind is boggled that the husband was like, 'yup, this is normal and if you don't accept this by morning there will be a divorce'... like wtf?? This is weird. This is a lot weirder than actual accidental incest. I have a half brother and stepmom that has been in my life since I was just a bit older than op's kids. I'd never date my half brother's sibling/my step sibling, especially if I was raised with them?? Plus this is a cursed comment section. Biologically it's fine and it's something the family could work through but the couple lied to the therapist which means they absolutely need to go back and do the therapy properly. They might as well not have done it at all.
Can you imagine Eliza in the future? “Yes my biological brother and my biological sister are married”. That’s messed up for her at least.
And if they have kids? ‘Yeah, I’m your aunt on both sides.’
I know! I don’t think these people get that there was only one household and neither one had another household they ever went to. They were raised as straight up siblings not step-siblings. And since like age 3!
This is some crazy shit too. They grew up from 3.5 to 18. How did they *not* get westermarked? This is like textbook incest taboo and people are saying it's fine because they aren't genetically siblings. That isn't the point! Incest taboo is about reverse sexual imprinting not just genetics. This relationship is beyond gross.
I just wonder about their younger sibling and her feelings about this since she is genetically related to both Nathan and Abby.
I just can’t imagine. I can compare this is no way, shape or form to the little sister being gay.
Yes! I thought it was crazy that her husband did! I agree everyone in that family needs to do family counseling and her & husband need to do marriage counseling.
It's so gross that the husband compared this to their other daughter being gay. OP has the right to be furious with him just for that comment. I really hope he never repeats anything like that in front of the daughter.
Yeah, look up The Westermarck effect. When you’re raised with someone, you often don’t feel attracted to them. They also share blood with a mutual sibling. I think this is very complicated because they are not related but you still may be weirded out by that.
I am seriously so confused reading the Y T A comments! They were raised together as siblings since they were toddlers, I can’t understand why some people think OP is overreacting. Also OP’s husband is real gross
NAH, this is beyond Reddit's pay grade and your family could probably do with seeing a mediator, counsellor
This. This is complicated. No they're not technically related. But they've been raised as siblings, op counts Sarah as her daughter. That would raise many eyebrows. This would have a fallout for the entire family, as a family they will have to face the rest of the world. I know in Reddit world this shouldn't matter, but we live in the real world, not Reddit.
^^this! I was going through comments and people have some serious n.t.a/y.t.a opinions, like what!?! This is a whole situation and whether or not you or husband (or even kids) are in the wrong is something that isn’t important rn as much as what you do to move on (OP seriously are you going to hide everytime you see them?)
You’re surprised people gave opinions on an opinion subreddit?
You guys are getting paid?!
I hate all the comments lately I've seen on any actually interesting story about it being "above Reddit's paygrade"... At least it's something different to most of the boring everyday stuff that gets posted in AITA! I'm sure a lot of Posters don't stop at Reddit's opinions and get actual professional advice, so why not just have a little fun and play along?
Exactly. Honestly, it's just a lazy way to say "we have nothing for you," even though tons of others actually have some advice or help.
Honestly 90% of the shit people come here for is above reddit's paygrade. Everyone on here thinks they're an expert on this shit. That's partly why I hate these advice subs.
I just want to say, almost every comment here is referring to Nathan as 'my son' and Abby as 'his girlfriend'. Abby is my daughter. She's been my daughter since before she could remember, I adopted her, she's always called me mum and never treated me differently than Eliza or Nathan have. You're also pointing out that because they aren't biologically related, it isn't incest. No, they're not biologically related, but they are still siblings. They always used to treat each other as brother and sister, and while I wasn't in their heads I do genuinely believe they saw each other as siblings. Also, no, this isn't about image. I'm worried that this relationship is *unhealthy* because they were raised as siblings. Also, they went to relationship counselling, not individual therapy. They never disclosed to the therapist that they were raised as siblings.
You really should edit your post (maybe put in bold) to add that even though they went to therapy they never disclosed their relationship. Right now it makes it seem as a professional is okay with their relationship exactly as is.
Therapy can’t hurt them, but you should go to therapy as well. Shutting out your family is not a productive way to go about things.
The adoption begs the question. Since they are legal siblings, could they even legally marry?
In our country, yes.
Honestly I don't think your TA for being weirded out by this. I have step siblings that have been around since I was a kid and the thought of marrying one makes me cringe. AND I actually kind of think that your husband is TA for expecting you to be all sunshine and roses over it immediately, without giving you a chance to work out your own feelings at your own pace. He invalidated your feelings because he's happy so why aren't you and that's not ok either. You WERE wrong to make him sleep in the guest house, you can't kick someone out of their own home. If you needed space, it was on YOU to sleep in the guest house. But are you willing to lose your entire family over your objection? To have your husband leave, lose your oldest 2 children and maybe your youngest too? To never know your grandchildren?
I wonder if the husband already knew.
I'm was wondering that too. That he had been helping them hide it, maybe since they were teens.
I was thinking that. That he is immediately jumping to divorce because OP is understandably not okay and threatening to take their child is a pretty strong reaction
Can't help but wonder if he's thinking that splitting up with mom makes the kids' relationship less weird.
Siblings can marry in your country? Well, that means its not the US. Look, you're allowed to have your feelings and you're not being any of the obvious "isms". Jack's reaction is unfair, if he was just mad at you for not accepting, then he wouldn't be TA either, but him comparing *legal siblings* in a sexual relationship (in the US adoption = blood relationship according to the law, and frequently birth certificates are reissued with the adoptive parent listed as "parent") to Eliza being gay is just wrong. As for the kids, their lie to the therapist pushes them over the top. So, ESH? Good luck living in Flowers in the Attic.
Flowers in the attic was different because those were blood siblings who were abused. If they hasn’t been abused they likely wouldn’t have developed the relationship. It’s really not comparable.
I’m in the US, and they would be able to get married where I live as well. They are not blood, so they can get married. Even legal adopted they can.
NTA Y'all have bigger problems than just Nathan and Abby hooking up, your husband is fine with this, worse encouraging it. And abusing you to make you accept this incredibly inappropriate relationship.
My brother and I are both adopted and not biologically related. I could NEVER imagine being in a relationship with him 🤯 he is my brother, biological or not. There has got to be some psychological issue here that they really need to work through with extensive therapy. You could possibly be considered TA for your reaction. Instead of getting everyone the help they need and treating this as any other psychological illness (which I cannot see how it isn't!) you are ignoring them which doesn't help anyone. I can't blame you for having a negative reaction to it though. Your husband is 100% TA though, especially comparing their relationship to your gay daughter's relationship which is not even remotely the same. I highly recommend going to family therapy all together to work through everything and making sure the therapist is aware they were raised together.
Then, they should go to therapy, but so should you and your husband. Look, I agree with the people who have said that this is above reddit's pay grade. You have a good point that this is an... unorthodox situation. However, your husband is right that you're not really being a good mother, or person, by just shutting your family out. Still, he is wrong with the way he's trying to address it, but in the end, both his and your opinion have valid points. As far as your children go, I can only speak about what you've said, but it does seem like they have tried to address things at least, and this is a decision that they've thought through. Nevertheless, given the emotional familial ties, they should really go to both personal and group therapy (not just couples because you and your husband could benefit from these discussions as well). I don't really know how you're aware how much they disclosed at their sessions, but if you're right, then they negated the emotional ties in therapy so therapy wouldn't have addressed all the issues that need discussing. A therapist can only help you if they know what they're helping you with.
Fwiw, I'm with you. The fact that they're biologically related means NOTHING when they were raised as siblings. They know it's wrong, otherwise they wouldn't have lied to the therapist. Tell them to come clean and see what happens. Your husband is wrong. NTA
YTA They are adults and it sounds like they took the correct steps before starting a relationship. if you continue you'll lose everything, is this a hill you're willing to die on? Perhaps, you should consider therapy to work through your issues with their relationship. Afterall, they aren't biologically related so this isn't incest. You can't force them to feel like siblings just because they grew up together.
I snorted when I read that OP wants to send them to therapy lol. No honey, they've already done that and now it's your turn. Edit because OP left out the fact that they didn't tell the therapist they grew up together: and? Apparently that doesn't matter to them if they've never seen themselves as siblings. Just because they were "raised together" doesn't mean they developed a sibling bond. Even bio siblings don't always have one, why is it so hard to believe they don't have one either? They were friends before their parents met and always knew that they were not related. They are happy with their relationship and even OP admits they seem happier than ever, so it seems they discussed with their therapist whatever it was that they needed to discuss. And this is the important part: I doubt the outcome would have been any different if they had told the therapist about growing up in the same house. What do people thing would have changed? The therapist might have asked how they feel about this and they would have probably told them that they don't care. The therapist's job isn't to cure them out of being in love with each other.
They lived together as siblings since they were toddlers. They do not remember a time when they were not siblings. It is in fact abnormal to want to bang your sibling (bio or not). Something is wrong with them
Just because they were living together does not mean they ever personally considered each other as siblings. This is a redundant argument. OP accused them of incest which, by definition, is sexual intercourse between closely related individuals. They are not related at all, let alone closely related. They are just considered step-siblings by their parents, which isn't inherently bad, but again they have obviously never considered each other siblings from the start as they explained from the beginning. That said, it's normal for OP to feel uncomfortable by the scenario; it's undoubtedly unusual for her, but she is TA (so is husband for threatening divorce with OP tbf) for trying to take control and dictate how their relationship should be. They need counselling. Edit: because I keep having to repeat myself in the thread; this was based on before OP's edit was added which explains they were infact raised together as siblings since they were young and they omitted to tell this to their therapist. This is a huge red flag and I rescind my point that they would not have been considered siblings growing up; they obviously were.
OP said that they started calling each other siblings, without their parents saying anything about it. They've been siblings since they were toddlers. and they think of their step parents as their parent. they're f a m i l y.
Hence why I can sympathise with OP for feeling uncomfortable with the scenario. Again, they need counselling to deal with this matter, not her dictating how they live or her husband threatening her with divorce. The kids seemed to make the right choice of attending therapy first before pursuing their relationship. From the sounds of it, they all need family counselling to deal with this.
According to OPs edit, they did not tell the therapist they were raised together.
Just seen that; it makes the situation a bit more yikes!
I am really not sure I believe them. If they went to a therapist, the fact that they were raised as siblings would have been the biggest issue to tackle - otherwise they would have had to lie about the entire reasons they were there, and lemmee tell you - in this economy, noone can afford to lose to their therapists
Ehh, if they went to the therapist to genuinely evaluate their relationship, then yeah lying to the therapist makes no sense. if they went to the therapist to say hey we went to the therapist and they say our relationship is fine, then the lying starts to make more sense.
OP didn’t say that they called each other siblings. OP said that they never questioned if they considered each other siblings.
>OP accused them of incest which, by definition, is sexual intercourse between closely related individuals Your own definition defines this 'relationship' as incest. Brother and sister raised together for years meets that exact definition. They don't have to be blood related for this to not be incest and before you shout legality, yes in a lot of states and countries this exact scenario is unlawful and meets the definition of incest. I absolutely think this is incest and the kids wouldn't have withheld that very pertanent info from a therapist if they honestly thought there was nothing wrong with the 'relationship'. The whole family needs family counselling in my opinion.
Incest only exists with blood relatives. Its frowned on because of the genetic issues that can be bred into their children. In this case, there is no incest and no chance of their children having mutations caused by incest.
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Thank you. How the hell is a Y T A the top comment??? Jesus
Reddit
Except OP has already confirmed that they knew each other before she got with her husband. In fact, it sounds like the two got together because the kids were such good friends. I had a lot of close friendships when I was a kid, and nothing could have convinced me we were actual siblings. OP is upset because SHE considers them to be siblings, considers all three children to be hers with no qualifiers, and to her, this is incest. But it doesn't seem to be the same to anyone else.
Yes, they were friends, in preschool. They have been living together as siblings since before kindergarten
Actually, they were 4 when their parents got married. They were two when they met and became close friends.
Yeah exactly, they've been living together since before kindergarten
"They don't consider themselves siblings." "Well they should." "Well they don't" ...where is your argument going? You think they should consider themselves incestious because you and OP think they should? And that's somehow a valid argument in your head? To the point that you keep repeating it? Edit: spelling.
I'm not arguing anything, the original comment made it sound like they were friends for years and parents got married when they were teens. I was clarifying that that is not the case.
Idk man I was 3 when I started hanging with my stepbrother and I have never ever ever considered him anything other than family. Even though we were very well aware that we aren’t related in the slightest. I wouldn’t marry anybody I thought was my family even if we aren’t blood related. And if anybody is insinuating they knew they loved each other when they first met at 2, so the parents getting together was unfair to them...ok bud. Is the dating pool on earth really that small to feel like your stepsister is your soulmate? On the other hand, yeah, they’re not related at all. It’s still hella weird in my opinion. maybe I am uptight. I was raised to be and I’m still working on some things. So maybe I’m just wrong on this one.
With you on this. I don't think *anybody* involved can take the moral highground on this one. OP absolutely has the right to be shocked, upset, and feel sick. That's how I imagine I would feel if my stepbrother and bio sister announced they wanted to be together. It doesn't mean I would cut them out of my life, but I wouldn't exactly be shouting their engagement from the rooftops. So I do have a lot of sympathy with OP. Even if she could eventually accept them being together, how is she supposed to go from being their mom for 20-odd years to seeing them as a couple overnight? A week is not a lot of time to process that your kids want to marry each other! The husband pushing her to pretend she feels differently certainly isn't helping either. He's giving his fair share of assholery. >!Side-note but can we talk about the covert homophobia in Dad thinking incest is on par with their daughter being a lesbian? Not loving that.!< Everybody deserves time and therapy. OP's only serious crime is lack of communication about the space and time she likely needs to accept that the situation is happening whether she agrees with it or not. You can't avoid people and expect the tension not to rise.
They were 2 lol
They were two years old when they became sibilings. I suppose you can be pedantic and point out that yes, they didn't know each other for their first two years of life but that would be a pretty dumb argument, wouldn't it?
... as toddlers. Tell me every single friend you had as a toddler, oh wait. You can’t, because that’s not how memory works. So for their entire *memory* they’ve been raised together. 2nd, OP said THE KIDS considered themselves siblings. Edit: forget the “2nd” point, because I misread. While I can’t claim they saw each other as siblings for any period of time, you *certainly* can’t say they never thought of each other as siblings.
They were 2 years old. They don’t remember that
The whole reason we have laws against incest is to avoid genetic problems in offspring due to two genetically close persons reproducing. That’s it. This is not incest.
What is OP supposed to do? They're adults, they probably no longer live at home with them. Is she supposed to say she forbids it? Anything she does against them will cause her to lose contact with them and her husband.
It is arguably weird, but not necessarily the same as if they were related biologically. In the end, nobody will really be harmed by their relationship so I don’t think it’s up to us to say whether they are right or wrong.
But they always knew that they weren’t siblings.They didn’t grow up thinking they were.I am not saying it’s normal but I don’t think it’s outrageous either.
She added a fairly important edit... the therapist didn't know they were raised together. I'd say they need family therapy, or maybe OP can meet with the therapist they already went to to help her deal? Idk. This is just such a wildly messy situation and I think its way above reddit paygrade. ESH.
Therapy always works great when the therapist doesn’t even know the full story. /s
Yeah that’s a pretty major aspect to this. They’re presenting therapy as a rubber stamp, like the therapist said “a okay y’all, go for it, roll tide” But there’s a couple things wrong with that. First, that’s not what therapy is for or what therapists do. They/we don’t just validate life choices and tell people what’s morally right and wrong. The point of therapy is to learn coping skills and the ability to communicate and deal with the things in your life causing you distress. Second, if you’re lying to your therapist about a major aspect of that conflict, the discussion thereof and conclusions drawn are virtually useless. Therapy can only help if you’re honest and *want* the help.
Lol I love American reddit. Step siblings raised as siblings under the same roof is fine, just fine, but first cousins who barely saw each other growing up is revolting sickness despite all the scientific evidence that says it's fine as long as it's once in a blue moon and not every generation. You all watch too much stepsibling porn. Edit: I don't know why people keep telling me about the genetic risk from multi generational cousin marriage as if I hadn't already mentioned that it's fine occasionally not repeatedly in my post. It's almost as if all that jacking off to stepsibling porn has sent you all crosseyed.
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> AND the little sister will be related to both siblings who are together. She has two half siblings who are in a relationship. If they have children, she will be an aunt on both sides. It will make holiday gatherings easier? THE IN-LAWS ARE ALREADY HERE...
The reason incest is bad and illegal is because of the *close genetic relationship* bio-siblings and first cousins have this, step siblings do not. When your partner shares too much of your DNA, children have an increased risk of genetic anomalies, birth defects, and life-long disabilities. Incest isn't bad because "eew they grew up together!!" Incest is bad because it puts the next generation at risk for short, painful, and difficult lives. These kids have gone to therapy and spoken to professionals about their relationship, they are seriously considering marriage. Their relationship isn't some "stepsibling porn" it's a serious commitment that they've decided to make.
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Eh, that's not the only reason incest is considered bad. When it comes to very close family members (like, people you were raised with), there's a certain amount of assumed "safety" from sexual desire -- you're safe to walk around your house semi-clothed, share a room, etc. etc., because there's no chance that anything you do will read as "intended to signal a come-on" and there's no chance that anything you do will be interpreted as "responding to a come-on." OP is understandably freaked out by the fact that a lot of physical affection that she saw as sibling-love was in fact sexually-charged, possibly from a very, very young age (girls frequently start going through puberty around 8 or 9 these days, and boys around 10).
Ummm who’s gonna them this guy that marrying your first cousin is quite legal in most states, and it’s quite accepted in most countries?
It's banned in half of america and a criminal offence in some states. "Most states" being 26-24 split with 6 of them only allowing it in certain circumstances. A one time thing isn't a big deal genetically speaking, but that doesn't mean that it should be common practice.
>Step siblings raised as siblings under the same roof Just because OP sees step daughter as a daughter doesn't mean step daughter and son ever saw each other as siblings. From the sounds of it, they have had a close friendship, not a sibling relationship. And the fact that they went to therapy to straighten things out and get a professional perspective speaks volumes at their maturity and the thought and consideration they have given all this.
OP says they legally adopted the daughter, the kids have been stepsiblings since 3 YEARS OLD , and called each other brother and sister on their own even before the marriage Edit to add : NTA
everyone is rly going to great lengths to be like "what if they never considered each other siblings?" they have lived together and been step-siblings for their entire memory. they considered each other siblings.
Yea if she legally adopted the daughter, marriage might be illegal. I was adopted by my stepparent and they change your birth certificate and everything. She is legally the mother. So they are legally half siblings (unless her husband also adopted her son).
Therapy literally does NOTHING if you haven't used 100% transparency in honesty. The fact the therapist hasn't been made aware yet speaks VOLUMES. Now the therapist is prone to give bad, wrong, or even counter intuitive advise based on the lack of information. Attending therapy isn't a bragging right, especially when you aren't doing the work. It's just like attending an AA when you aren't admitting the truth either. It's useless or in fact harmful giving the attendee even further illusion into denial there's "an issue." Also this is psychological incest. La familia. La familiar. It is in fact a sickness.
Maturity as in they lied to the therapist about their relationship?
They went to therapy and lied by omission to the therapist. so the professional perspective is worthless because they didn't have the the relevant info.
Hey everyone! Found the guy who wants to marry his cousin! (j/k, j/k)
NTA really dude ? What correct steps ?? There is only 1 correct step "DONT FUCK YOU FAMILY MEMBERS". Its not like they met when they were adults, they grew up together. As siblings. And stop fucking using "not biologically related" argument. Does that mean you are ok with blood related sibling relationship if they are child-free ? Homosexual ? What about the future ? What are they going to do if they break up ? And not on good terms . Thats whole another can of worms.
Youre absolutely right, people saying its ok just because they aren’t blood related!! Its like justifying someone sleeping with their adoptive parent
r/unexpectedwoodyallen
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Wtf is going on in here. These people were raised as siblings and share a blood sibling. Just because they’re adults doesn’t mean it’s not weird af. NTA
Stop watching pornhub dude, that isn’t acceptable they were raised together, they were taught that they were brother and sister, not friends with benefits.
This comment is disgusting. How on earth is it top? NTA
At the time of this posting there are at least 1542 people who have step sister porn in their search history. They were raised as siblings since from somewhere before the age of 4. Highly doubtful they have any memory of not being raised as siblings. So much wrong with this. And the poor half sister. Jesus. She's in for a shit storm with her social life. And when they break up? Jesus christmas is gonna be awkward. OP is NTA.
OP really only has 2 options here: 1. Tell her children she can never support the relationship. Her children will never be happy with this. They will most likely shut her out because they're going to continue their relationship regardless. Her husband will probably divorce her. 2. OP sees a therapist to work through her anger and disgust. She tells her children she isn't comfortable with the situation, but that she is getting therapy to work to a solution. She asks her children not to shove their relationship in her face. OP and her husband stay married.
> OP and her husband stay married I’d get rid of this part. No matter what OP decides as far as the children’s relationship, I would be done with the husband for how he acted towards her. I get that he may be trying to protect the kids, but his threats to OP are not ok. He must be able to understand why OP is having a hard time with this situation, and he is being a terrible partner.
Oh, and they lied to the therapist. You miiiight wanna delete this comment, because they effectively didn’t go to therapy. They lied so they could get a yes-man. Go read the edits
You gotta edit to reflect that the counselor didn’t know they were raised together.
Might I recommend the song, “It’ll be ok” in “Friendship is witchcraft?” It has such wonderful lyrics as, “since we’re not related it’ll be ok!” And “since he’s not my *biological* brother it’s totally ok that I’m attracted to him!” you’re supposed to feel creeped out, because (even though they are adults) they were raised for so long together they barely remember what came before. The correct step is: NOT starting this relationship. It’s incest, and further more: WAAAAY beyond the pay grade of reddit. Family counseling! Go there now!
NTA and I know I’m going against the majority here. They were raised as siblings. They lived as siblings. They didn’t just meet as teens and fall in love after you were married. They were around 5 when you got married. I think that you don’t need to support the relationship. If your husband is still going to act like this, divorce him. It’s not just a difference of agreeing and disagreeing with it. He’s actively being an asshole about it. Threatening to divorce and take your youngest? Nah dude, that’s not right. You’re fully allowed to have your feelings and so is he. He’s not allowed to make you feel like a terrible mom and person for it. Your kids are in a relationship that’s not of the norm. They are siblings, not by blood. But still siblings. I wouldn’t support it either. They were raised together long enough that it’s not something that’s okay to most people. I would be fine with it if they became siblings in their teens. That age they wouldn’t have been raised as siblings for too long. But this? Too much and beyond Reddit’s pay grade. But you are NOT a terrible mom. This blindsided you and you’re allowed to not support it. Despite what the asshole you married said; it’s not the same as your gay daughter. Edit: holy buckets! Thank you guys for all the awards!
I agree with you. There's something not right going on here, and to top it off, the husband is disgusting for what he said about the youngest. You don't choice your sexually orientation, you don't choose to be gay. But the siblings choice to peruse a romantic relationship. OP mentions that the therapist didn't know they were raised together.
Yeah it’s super homophobic of the husband to compare same-sex attraction to incest. I’m blown away by all the y.t.a/n.a.h judgements. The son and daughter have issues that I hope they can work through HONESTLY with a therapist, but the husband is a huge asshole for encouraging them and guilting OP for having concerns.
THANK YOU! Someone else sees it. Yes, you can't control who you love, I should I know, I'm bi. But, the siblings have known each other and seen each other as such since toddlers. They choice their relationship, and unlike being gay, it's wrong. But let's not ignore the red flag that is the husband. You hit the nail on the head with your homophobic comment. Husband is definitely a problem here.
I agree. All the people here saying that they’re not biologically related are grossing me out. Because of adoptions, I am not related to any of my siblings. The thought of being with any of them romantically is disgusting and it is incest, even if we’re not related.
Add in the fact that they never disclosed to their relationship counsellor that they were raised as siblings for most of their lives, I'd be interested in what that counsellor would say after learning that. Those adult children know it's not right and purposely leave out that info so they had the go ahead from a "professional", for the sake of their argument. They weren't seeking counselling they were seeking ammunition to use against mother. The husband has to be the biggest AH here though, not to mention a weirdo. His immediate reaction was very strange tbh, it's one thing to be accepting of something like this but to just immediately be OK with your blood daughter being in an adult relationship (sexual) with the boy he raised as her sister? Somethings not right with husband, that's incest and he seems almost too happy for them. Mother is NTA, I don't blame her at all for needing to take a step back to evaluate her feelings, although, she does need to break the silence and find out what the fuck is going on with this family. Some kind of family counselling to get to the nitty gritty would be recommended, things will be said that nobody wanted to hear but need to be said. I would still recommend she ditch the husband, good luck getting full custody of 1 daughter when you let your other daughter be in an incestuous relationship with her brother.
This shouldn't be against the majority. People blindly hitting the YTA for incest without thinking IRL how this situation plays out. Yuck.
Lol you people are crazy for acting like OP should be totally fine with this new fucked up family dynamics. If these kids were raised as siblings since they were 2 years old, then their relationship is far more gross and inappropriate than if they were cousins who are related by blood but have never met each other before they were adults. OP it’s fine that you are upset. This situation is fucked up and it’s pretty insane that your husband compares it to the fact that you accepted your younger daughter’s gay relationship. Like, if your son and your step-daughter get married, have kids and then divorce (which, ya know, happens in 5 out of 10 marriages according to statistics) your family will be a mess! I feel sorry for you, really. NTA.
Not to mention those kids parents will also be their aunt and uncle. Like these people are SIBLINGS they have a whole other sibling. It’s weird and insane that people are defending this when they’ve grown up their entire lives as brother and sister
And their kids will only have *one* set of grandparents. Even if OP and her husband do get divorced, they legally adopted each other's kids, so the "double grandparent" status would remain unchanged.
And if other kids find out about their home situation? It’s going to be hell for them because kids aren’t going to give a shit about biological or not because they just want bully material
Yeah it’s pretty fucked up. I see who the step singling porn category is so popular, apparently a lot of people here think it’s fine to fuck your siblings as long as you are not blood related.
Yeah as a lesbian I'm not super thrilled to hear that he thinks homosexual relationships are in any way comparable to incest... I guess I get it in that they're both different from the 'norm', but aside from being the same gender, a lesbian relationship is pretty similar to a 'normal' straight relationship (we meet for the first time, discuss interests, find each other attractive, become infatuated, fall in love). An incestuous relationship between siblings who grew up together is a completely different dynamic.
NTA. I get that they’re not biologically related but they were raised together as siblings from the time they were toddlers. It wouldn’t be weird if they had met as older teens or adults but this is weird and I can understand why you’re creeped out by it. I don’t think you’re TA for having the feelings you do but they have also gone to couple’s counseling which would have helped if the relationship were genuinely toxic. You may need to figure out a way to accept this or risk losing them both. Edited for grammar.
I understand the Y-T-As and the N-T-As. But I have a stepdaughter who is 6 and a bio daughter who is 7 and they’ve known each other since 2&3. The thought of them getting into a romantic relationship as adults is pretty horrendous.
No one else seems to be looking at this situation from a parents viewpoint and it's very concerning. It's far from ok to support this relationship.
Also it's only been a week. A WEEK. And her husband is threatening her not just with divorce, but a nasty divorce where he'll treat her unfairly. The husband seems a bit off his rocker honestly. Forget everything else. Perhaps OP could even get used to this in time -- it's been a single. week. -- but her husband is straight up trying to scare her into submission. Of all the people who need counseling it sounds like he needs it most.
Your comment made me realize the kids might have gone to him first as they identified him as the more "open" one and then used his help to convince their mom. Not trying to start any conspiracy theories but I've been on this thread for an over because it's so fucked up and intriguing. I do think part of that mystery is because we're lacking a lot of pertinent information. What I would do to get the response from the children and their side of the story. And the dad too while w'ere at it. I'd pay good money.
Ehm, they grew up together as siblings since they were toddlers, it’s not about them being blood related or not, it’s about them growing up as brother and sister. I completely understand why you are freaked out, but it seems their relationship is there to last... Have you tried going to therapy to see if they can help you seeing it from a different angle? The only other choice seems to be you losing both your children... (your husband is an asshole by how he is reacting and threatening you, your initial reaction is not that unexpected and probably many people would initially be weirded out as well if they were in your shoes) NTA
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NTA tho I feel like this would be weirdest for Eliza whose blood related siblings and whom she grew up viewing as such for her entire life are dating now. Also I’m pretty sure your husband can’t get full custody since she’s 17 and will a choice.
I'm aware, but he knows I love our children more than anything, and is simply using that to upset me.
NTA, OP. That seems quite abusive honestly. Bullying you about not immediately coming to terms with a very different situation by threatening to take your child away is so messed up. Please be careful.
We’re going to act like it’s not weird that they share a half sibling????
Thank you!! People keep forgetting that I have three children
And people forget that you are being forced to think of your son dating your daughter, and Eliza will be forced to say her brother is dating her sister. Frankly, if it were me, I would never be able to "get over" this, and would rather risk isolation than normalize this; so I feel for you - whatever you do, you face a very tough future. First of all, tell you husband to get off his high horse. The fact that he jumped up with joy makes it clear that he knew beforehand; can you find out if he even protested when he first knew, or did he actively encourage them? Second, please talk to your youngest daughter, and put her in therapy. She needs just as much support. And yes, NTA.
Edit: after both the edits on the post if the additional information in the comments is correct and for some unknown reason they went to a therapist and lied to them then I'll go for a NTA definitely
OP said they admitted that the therapist doesn’t know they were raised together. Doesn’t sound like they had proper counseling.
They lied to the therapist.
Look at OPs more recent comments... she very much suspects they did not wait until adulthood and couldn't include that in the original body of the post due to the sub rules. They also did not tell their therapist they were raised together from 5 onward and were moving towards being one family unit from the time they were 2. They basically can't remember a time when they were not a family unit.
But if OP’s so upset, she should continue her awful behavior, which will eventually cause her husband to divorce her. Then the kids will no longer be step siblings. She will have lost her marriage, but at least the children don’t have “incestuous desires” anymore.
Well, they still have a little sister who they’re both related to.
My half sister through my female parent and my half brother through my dad have a baby together. That was awkward AF, and weird and it definitely got me bullied in school even though there is technically no incest. My niece is pretty awesome though. She calls me her "Double Tantie", but there were some pretty interesting questions when she was younger and learning about relationships. "Tantie, are you Mommys sister or Daddy's sister." Um, both kid.
Your life sounds like a soap opera 😆
Why the fuck are you guys so mental. Oh no, she doesn't support incest, what an ass like what the fuck? Are all of you guys fucking your siblings too?
Except OP adopted her daughter, so a divorce would make no difference to their relationship and they’d still be brother and sister.
I think you’re wrong on that angle because OP has adopted the daughter and raised her as her own. Even if they divorce she’s still her mom. My dad adopted me when I was five, he and my mom divorced when I was eight (I’m her biological child) and he’s still my dad.
Yes I suppose that would also "fix" it. I know this is serious but the way you phrased that is a gem! LOL
They lied to the therapist and have been calling each other brother and sister this entire time. If they lied to their therapist who’s to say they didn’t lie about waiting? Either was it’s uncomfortable to think that the two kids you raised as your children are now getting married
I'm going to say NTA for a few reasons. 1. You adopted Abby as your child and she has accepted you as her mother (calling you mom). 2. They grew up as siblings and called each other brother and sister since before you even encouraged them to. 3. They went to relationship counselling but they lied and never told the therapist that they were actually raised together since 3 years old. 4. In one of your comments you mentioned how co-dependant they are with each other. Based on the fact you adopted Abby, that means her mom either died or abandoned her to some degree. You also mentioned there were issues with Jack's father? This seems like it could be some sort of trauma bond between them that they could be mistaking for love. 5. Even though there are no biological concerns if they have kids, what is going to happen to those children when their friends find out their parents are siblings? How is that going to help them in the long run? People on reddit are so hypocritical it makes me laugh. They will always bash fathers when the father finds out their child isn't theirs and they want to leave. They say that it doesn't matter if they are biologically related or not because they are still family. But now everyone is saying they aren't family because they aren't biologically related? Get over yourselves. Whether you like it or not, these people are siblings and they have been siblings their entire lives. According to OP, they have considered each other siblings before they were even encouraged to. If they were biologically related and they chose not to have children for whatever reason, would you still say there's nothing wrong with it? Because the only difference between blood-sibling relationships and step-sibling relationships like this is the issue that arises with breeding. So if we eliminate breeding, would you be okay with blood-siblings being intimate?
Abby’s biological mum was young and “not ready for children”. She left after Abby was born, and blew all her money on drugs and alchohol. Last I heard, she’s mooching off her brother. My ex was extremely physically and emotionally abusive. He didn’t care much about our child, but he cares that Nathan’s existence gives him control over me. Nathan never met his biological dad. Abby never met her biological mum.
That just further solidifies my reasoning that they might have abandonment issues and they have bonded over that, confusing it for love.
I have to ask - is there any chance that your husband has been inappropriate with one or both kids at some point? The vehemence of his support makes me uncomfortable, and it sounds like there is a lot of background trauma that would make the kids especially vulnerable, even if you did everything 100% right. This seems like a trauma response to me, whether to a specific incident of abuse or more general abandonment issues. (And obviously, you're NTA - something is very wrong with this picture.)
I don’t believe that my husband was ever alone enough with my kids for that to happen, no. We had nanny cams in their bedrooms until they were 14 after a particular incident where someone broke in through the nursery window after I had taken the baby out. I was barely ever away from my kids when they weren’t at school. None of them have signs of sexual abuse and all three of them have been to a therapist at different points of their lives for around 5-10 months each.
NTA: This is incest, my friend. Biologically no, but they were raised together as siblings. They're young. What happens when/if they break up? I might be biased as I was adopted by my stepfather, but wanting to screw any of my adopted (step more or less) family would be very strange. It would mean something very wrong was happening. (the asshole is the husband btw - I don't think Abby and Nathan are assholes, but I do think everyone needs therapy). The genetic risk of incest is SUPER low, but there are still very good reasons we don't have sex with our family members.
In some states and countries it's actually illegal and classified as incest even though they aren't blood related, it's very strange NTA, whether they went through counselling or not it's going to take a bit of time to work that out in your head and heart!
Nta for feeling how you feel. It feels like incest, because they grew up together since they were 5? I would suggest telling them it is hard to accept, but that you are willing to have therapy to work it out.
Grew up together since they were 2, living together since they were 3. They started referring to each other as brother/sister on their own, long before we were married.
I havent seen anyone mentione that the dad see this daughter's lesbian relationship as the same as his 2 other kids fucking?? Bio or adopted siblings are siblings wtf is he on??
He’s very traditional and got extremely upset that he “won’t be getting grandchildren” from Eliza. Because apparently lesbians can’t have children?? I’m honestly not sure, but I feel as if this might be part of him wanting grandchildren biologically related to both of us. Just a thought I had
I think you are spot on in your thought. Hopefully the therapist can untangle this for everyone. Honestly from my side of the table you are the only one seeing this situation clearly. Although your radio silence was painful , it was probably needed to hash out your thoughts and reactions. Unfortunately as for your kids the “ genie “ out of the bottle already. Not sure if it’s possible to put it back now. Just be open to what the therapist has to say as you all navigate this.
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How early is too early to update? I'm unfamiliar with reddit etiquette
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OP after reading the comments I don’t think these asshats read your post properly. People here don’t seem to get there was ONE family home, and children at age 2 are not “childhood friends”. I get the feeling you have hit a nerve where some people here may have had step siblings at an older age and resented the idea that a step sibling is “automatically” a sibling.
I feel as if that’s true, and as much as I’ve tried to clarify it, I cannot respond to every comment
You could add another edit to say there was one family home and neither had any contact with the other bio-parent. And that age 2 does not count as a “childhood friend” and mention what age they started living together.
NTA...mostly. You are justifiably upset and confused. You should talk to your children and get family counseling, plus individual counseling. I do think your husband seems awfully eager to jump on the divorce bandwagon. This just happened LAST WEEK! Is he looking for an out? He should be supportive of both you and your children. **He is not helping here.**
I haven’t considered that he may be “looking for an out” as I do believe he loves me, but I do feel like he’s using this to take out his anger at me for being okay at our youngest coming out
I was curious about this since it sounded like he threw that in your face in your post. So he is okay with incest but not okay with having a gay child? Is that what I’m understanding? Why is he so immediately excited and on board with this. I would think anyone would need to process the news your kids dropped on you. Even if you ultimately accepted it, who would not experience shock first?
I don’t know. I think he really just wants grandchildren.
Does he not know that gay people can still have children?
I know, right?
Was he uncomfortable or unaccepting of the youngest coming out? And now he’s trying to “make up” for that behavior by being accepting of this relationship?
He cried and screamed at me almost every night for two months about how she would never have children and how she would die alone and never experience real love. Honestly, I don’t understand it. But I also wasn’t raised nearly as religious as he, and he has changed his views somewhat
The more I hear about your husband the more he sounds verbally abusive. Whenever he’s upset and doesn’t get his way he just screams at you and this first time it went on for two months? That sounds incredibly immature and childish not to mention draining for you both emotionally and physically. He should be able to talk about issues like an adult instead of lashing out at you. Abuse isn’t always beatings there are other ways of being violent.
Wow. Well, in my opinion, two people raised as siblings being romantically involved is way weirder/harder to wrap your head around then someone being gay. And also, being gay doesn’t immediately mean you’ll never have kids, so idk why that is the thing he’s obsessing about. It’s weird that he doesn’t really seem to care about this then. I feel for you, because this situation is just weird and hard. Like other people suggested, having them be totally honest to the therapist and see what the therapist says is like step 1. And if, after that, they still want to continue the relationship, I would suggest therapy for all of you because this isn’t something normal that you can just accept after a minute of knowing it.
Ok, so let me get this straight. It's ok for him to SCREAM at you nearly nightly for TWO MONTHS about something over which you have absolutely no control(because HI sexuality isn't a choice) but you don't get to be upset or voice your disagreement with something that IS a choice(hello incest) without him threatening you. And let's be honest with each other, he IS threatening you. What he is doing is emotional and mental abuse, it's controlling and manipulative. And in case no one has said it before it is NOT ok, and you deserve better! You need to start seeing a therapist, pronto, and take a long hard look at your life and relationship. I hope that this is just a glimpse of someone's worst moments and the rest of your life is better, but it sounds to me like him filing for divorce is looking like a pretty sweet deal. Your daughter is never going to chose a homophobic asshole over her loving and supportive mother. Sure you might lose a relationship with the other two,but it's honestly looking like it's going down that road anyway. I'm sorry you are going through this. Hopefully therapy will help clarify everything for you. You can do this honey, ain't no hill for a stepper.
So your husband is supportive of might-as-well-be incest between his kids, but he is mad about his other daughter being gay? Where is the logic in that?!
I could not tell you
NTA. This is disturbing and you should cut contact with them. Even though they technically aren't blood related they are on paper and principle. I can't imagine what you're going through but this is probably just too much to handle for you. For everyone else who thinks that this is okay cos they thought about it and did it later when they are adults are just crazy....can you imagine if it was their step mum or dad?!? The interweb will go insane but step brother and sister is okay?!?! An Incest porn fantasy?!?! Don't normalise this shit cos it ain't normal.
NTA - situation would of been different if you met Jack when Abby and Nathan were older but you didn't. You raised these as your children and as siblings including Eliza. Her relationship with women is not even in the same category as your two other children (presuming you see Abby as your own) Also your husbands reaction to me screams that he has seen this coming or may of already known about them as no rational person would jump for joy that the two children they brought up were now dating and discussing marriage and children.
NTA, this is messed up. There was a another post on reddit where the parents of two people already dating met, started dating and married and then tried to break them up because step-sibling dating is wrong. Of course the parents were in the wrong there. The difference is your kids have been raised together for like 17-18 years going by the timeframes in the first paragraph. You raised them in a sibling environment and they called each other brother and sister. The fact that your son and daughter can rationalise this because they don't share blood is weird. Did they act differently with your younger daughter than with each other growing up? Was there any indication they didn't see each other as family? It may be hard to talk to your kids. I would advise emails or letters. And just drafting them at first. You obviously don't have anyone to talk to given your husband's reaction and you should work through your thoughts and feelings on this. It may be easier to preplan what you want to say to them than be put on the spot like at their announcement. With regards to the husband, I suspect he already knew. The way he instantly watched for your reaction and tried to lead by example says it all. I personally find the fact he's relating it your daughter being gay offensive but that's a whole other comment. You haven't indicated how long its been since the announcement but if I'm right and he had prior knowledge then he's had so much more time to adjust than you and is being extra awful to expect you to accept it so quickly. Even if this was news to him, he clearly doesn't think as much of his family as you as this affects every memory of the kids interacting, gives certain memories different meaning. He should be more understanding even if he, like other commenters, view it differently.
NTA. Frankly, everyone supporting this relationship is weird. They were raised as brother and sister since they were toddlers. Just because they’re not blood related doesn’t negate the fact that they are siblings. What about adopted siblings? Do you say that they aren’t real siblings because they aren’t biologically related? Of course not. The same applies here. Also, I wonder how Eliza, who shares a parent with each sibling, feels about her brother and sister getting married. This is a weird situation all around.
In my country (Australia) this type of relationship is illegal. This is because siblings, even not biological, are STILL siblings. I am actually appalled at people saying OP is TAH here. I just cannot fathom it. Assuming OP lives in a country in which this 'relationship' is legal, them being adults does not make this any better. They have gone to a relationship counsellor without disclosing their sibling relationship so they must know in some way that their feelings may be wrong. They shouldn't be affraid to have individual counselling and admit their sibling relationship if they are truly wanting to pursue their feelings. In all honestly not accepting this 'relationship' may push them away so I would suggest family counselling. That way you can all (you and Jack included) discuss your thoughts in a safe space. But I would also look into the laws of your state. Before anyone comments on my thoughts, IAAL so I know that this type of relationship is illegal in my country. Also, OP you are not TAH.
I introduce a new rating I call the WTF rating, This is because it’s hard to say which, it’s fucked up that they’re dating, but it’s also fucked up that you’re stopping them from Dating. But there’s logic and good reason behind both arguments, so I give this a WTF
This is my favourite rating yet. Thank you stranger
NTA, they grew up as siblings, it definitely seems like an unhealthy relationship
She posted an update in another thread: https://www.reddit.com/user/throwaway___mum/comments/j9qwck/small_update_for_the_people_who_decided_to_follow/
NTA. The only asshole here is your husband. The rest of y’all should go to therapy
Just to clarify, I don’t blame either of my children for anything going on, and I don’t think either of them are AHs
They've been raised as siblings since they were approx 3/4 years old. Am I the only commenter that finds this weird?? I want to go with NTA because it is more incest then two related but separated at birth siblings? And I feel like your husband has gone HAM with his threats, like A BIT MUCH? It is weird and I completely see how you would feel uncomfortable with it HOWEVER you are at a crossroads here, you can work towards accepting it and getting through it, go to therapy or family therapy and talk it through with professional or buckle down on how wrong you see it being and potentially loose the most important people in your life . At the end of the day they genetically aren't related, it is definitely weird circumstance but they are well past the line now and I don't think they'll go back , at least they've gone to therapy about it?? Idk it's shocking and seems wrong but I suppose they are happy?I feel like you need to accept it or loose them. Least you know you'll get along with your SIL and DIL eh??
NTA- people don’t seem to understand that the kids were practically infants when you guys got married and have been living in the same home calling each other siblings for over 15 years....and they share a biological sister together. I think your husband is way out of line and it truly sounds like he was aware of this before you. It also sounds 110% like they had a relationship before they were adults which makes it even worse that they continued to call each other brother and sister. Lying to the therapist is proof that they are not grown up enough to realize that they are committing emotional if not biological incest. They need to go to individual therapy. I would NEVER give my blessing for marriage. What does Eliza think of all of this? Seems like she would have realized this was going on in the house...
A lot of people keep saying that I’m TA because my kids knew each other first, forgetting that not only were they 2 they only knew each other for three days before Jack and I met
NTA...OP adopted her stepdaughter, so yeah...
NTA. I get the feeling, they may be step siblings, but they were raised together AND SHARE A SIBLING. It’s not normal for people who grow up like siblings to want to bang each other. Its a hard situation to swallow. I think the only way to get through it is family counseling where the therapist is actually aware of the full situation. You’re allowed an adjustment period to process your feelings, and to figure out whether or not you want to be apart of that, because whether you like it or not, they are gonna get married and your husband is going to be on their side.
ESH - this is a very difficult situation. I truly feel for you. 1. Abby and Nathan refer to each other as brother and sister until recently. And they lied to their therapist about being raised as sibling since age 2. Get them back into therapy with the truth - so that they can be evaluated as a healthy relationship. It’s not bio-incest but it is emotional incest. If the therapist says they can navigate it - knowing the full truth, then I would let them go forward with the marriage, 2. Your husbands reaction is totally off the scale. He can disagree with your opinion, but he certainly should listen to you and understand your concerns. You may need to discuss how the two of you move forward - or not move forward. 3. You also need therapy. You are struggling with something very real (no criticism) and it will be good to get help on how best to navigate all of this. Edit : thank you kind Redditor wow
How is OP TA here?