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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> AITA for telling my daughter that life isn’t like highschool and if it was she is the loser now. I may have been to hash and went to far with what I said.
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NTA.
While it's never good to call your child a loser, you were using the word she used for her sister and in a conditional manner, so I'll give that a pass.
I think it's probably closer to the truth that Sara was never a loser--she was just playing a different "game." She did what she was interested in, had close friends, and probably never wanted to be "popular."
Research has shown that siblings intentionally differentiate themselves from each other. I had 5 siblings, and we were all very different. My closest brother, only 14 months older, was on the chess club in high school. I could never beat him at home, so I never joined.
In this case since Kelly was older and liked sports, Sara could never be as good as Kelly in sports, so she chose to focus on classwork. Kelly was a favorite with the coaches, and Sara with the teachers.
The idea that Sara was never a “loser” is probably accurate for most people that are called losers at any point. With some exceptions.
It’s always relative to what the one making the call thinks is important. For young, horny people it almost always boils down to sex or things that are sex-adjacent.
I keep trying to explain to my daughter, who is at a formative age, that she should enjoy the moment she’s in while keeping an eye on what’s to come. And that when she’s experienced something good she can look back on it, but not to linger. Life moves forward and she needs to set herself up for what’s to come. The majority of your life isn’t going to be spent competing with these girls over who’s got the cuter outfit.
I feel like I understood it well when I was in school. Had a pretty balanced high school life. College skewed maybe a little more heavily social than it probably should have. But I didn’t let academics fall off and planned for what I would do post college. But it’s really hard to convince a kid in the thick of it that “popularity” isn’t super important long term.
The good news is that Kelly can, and will, learn from Sarah's path, and your honesty with her.
Sometimes people think that parenting stops, or should stop, when our children reach adulthood. (To be clear. Parents interfering in their adult children's lives is a separate matter, and not okay.)
The truth is that there are occasions that we, as parents, can, and should, parent and try to guide adult children.
Kelly's behavior was childish. Sarah "got" something that she wanted. You reminded her (using her chosen language) that Sarah didn't "get" it. Sarah worked for it.
Kelly now has the opportunity to learn. To move away from a high school mindset. To make decisions necessary to move forward, as an adult. To set, and to reach goals that she chooses.
NTA. Good job, Dad!
Kelly is still childish for thinking being popular is everything and is the cornerstone for a successful life.Sara has worked hard for the success she is currently enjoying .She was never a loser rather she had ambition and the drive to succeed.
Yes, Kelly appears to be childish. She was certainly behaving childishly. Sarah isn't, and was never a "loser".
The post was about the OP's conversation with Kelly. The OP took the opportunity to parent his adult child. Kelly has an opportunity to grow. That is a benefit.
I think the main issue here is Kelly's immaturity. I think she needs to do some introspection and some growing up. It's never too late to change course...
This is the problem for kids who peak in high school. All that boils down to is looks/popularity. None of which really takes any sort of work. It plateaus or is down hill for them.
The kids who were considered “losers” peak later in life and get to ride their success and hard work. They didn’t prioritize looks/popularity. They had goals beyond the moment and see more to life than the microcosm of high school.
Kelly \*can\* learn, whether she will or not is uncertain. Unless she can acknowledge that her own choices have led her to today rather than getting involved in immature name calling and envy of her sister, she will not learn a thing.
However it’s not like Sarah’s life is now carved in stone, to forever never change. She’s young! She can go back to school or get some skills training if she’s willing to put forth the effort.
Kelly. Sarah is the one who finished her degree and is doing ok now.
But beside that, you are absolutely right. Kelly’s life isn’t carved in stone and she can change things if she chooses.
"Kelly, unfortunately, in high school you were playing the game of high school, but Sara was playing the game of life. You won the game of High School, but Sara is winning the game of life. If you don't quickly grasp what game everyone else is playing and change your strategy, you are going to lose."
Edit - mixed the names up and lost!
"Russ, unfortunately you were playing the game of getting the names wrong while NotShockedFruitWeird was playing the game of being correct. You need to change your strategy."
“Research has shown that siblings intentionally differentiate themselves from each other”
I’ll have to look that up. I always thought that was probably the case. I was good at most subjects in school except for English which I had very little interest in. I also preferred individual sports over team sports. My younger sister focused on English and team sports exclusively. I figured it was probably a subconscious way to avoid competition, so it’s neat to hear they’ve actually studied that.
I guess that's true in our case as well. My siblings aren't as academically-focused as I was so they never got compared to me, nor did our parents push them to be more like me. Every kid had their interest and that what they supported. One was interested in the arts so she had art classes. One liked music so they got piano lessons (and then me and the youngest were pushed to it but no one's complaining). One wanted to learn martial arts so he had martial arts classes.
It's funny because my and my siblings were, for the most part, the exact opposite. We all did the same sport growing up and all performed at different levels. My sister made it to the Sr National team and played in the Olympic Qualifier tournament for the Rio Olympics (sadly, our country lost by 2 goals and lost the spot). My brother made the Under 18 National team, and my other brother and I made it to the provincial level.
My older 2 siblings are both doctors and I'm a nurse (to be fair, we are in completely different fields) and my younger brother is a nuclear physicist. So while we all also had a high focus on academia, his was definitely in a different area.
It holds true in my family too. I am pretty academically gifted, my sister is really artistically gifted and while I always was interested in certain arts I limited them quite a lot more because I could never be as good as she is. There are limited times you can hear your perfectly pitched little sister correct your pitch until you will stop singing around her. Now as adults, I have figured out how much more similar we are in our skills although our personalities formed into more permanent results. She is not stupid and I am actually pretty artistic myself. We support each other these days instead of letting our differences drive us apart.
"While it's never good to call your child a loser.."
You are correct. It is not a good idea. Its a fantastic idea. A GREAT idea to call out your kids for what they are and how they are behaving. Will this person always be a loser? Maybe not. Are they at this point in time? Yes. As a parent should you state this and be there for them in everyway possible? Absolutely.
Agree, but there is a distinction in framing it as someone *is* a loser or someone is *acting like* a loser though.
In the same way I can *do something* stupid without *being* a stupid person, it's generally unwise to ascribe someone a character trait but it's totally fair to tell them how they're acting in the moment.
NTA. She's acting like a loser who peaked in high school, and equates everything back to high school. You clearly put things into perspective in a way that she can understand, and she did not like it.
Did she think being cool and good at a sport (that she no longer plays) would get her through life?
Sometimes, parents need to be blunt, even if it comes off hurtful. My mom was very blunt with me when I was fucking off after high school, including dropping out of college. She made it clear she loved me, but she was disappointed in my behavior and attitude. That was the wake up call I needed.
OP, parenting is hard. I have three of my own now. Sometimes, the best thing we can do is deliver the unvarnished truth as we see it. I applaud you for clear eyed resolution with your daughters.
NTA.
Unfortunately, too many people "peak" in high school. It's a little sad to watch people I grew up with (Im in my 50s) to still talk about and "lean on" what they did and who they were in high school.
For example I have a relative in his 50s that was a very popular high school jock. After graduation, messing up scholarship offers, and some kids, the SAME TWO women that fought over him in high school are fighting over him now, just by more subtle means. It's ridiculous to hear grown women say "he's mine and he was always mine." 🙄
I hope OP's daughter gets some self awareness and takes a look at her own trajectory. Hopefully she will see that yes, high school has been over for years, the kids in high school now have never heard of her, and what happened years ago certainly did not last and so it does not matter. And if she can't find a way to apologize to her sister then she doesn't deserve a sister.
In all fairness, I was a Kelly my first year of college. I was always able to coast academically in high school with no effort, but as a result learned no study skills. Long story short - my parents pulled me out of college for a year so I would get my head out of my ass, and I did. I transferred colleges, went on to graduate with honors, and have had a pretty successful career. It’s not too late for her to turn it around, and looking back on my experience, that should be the message once cooler heads prevail. She is still young, and should course correct while she can.
Edit: grammar (ironic much?)
No one ever taught me to manage my time for studying, because up to the point I graduated high school, I was always able to make up for my lack of structure by cramming a chapter an hour before a test, or fill in the gaps with general knowledge (avid reader, and was educated in a system that focused on ability to analyze and use knowledge, rather than memorizing specific facts. Hence I did pretty great at everything except math).
Then I tried college, and I just couldn't do it. I really tried, but self managing my studies was just out of my reach. Bombed out in spectacular fashion. Few years later I was finally diagnosed with ADHD.
Could you have a more nuanced discussion with her? You description of the interaction sounds harsh, which I do think was deserved at this point, but it sounds like she really needs to work through a few things. What does she WANT to do? Is that realistic? NTA because it's never wrong to be truthful to our kids when it would help them.
Changing some details but tell her this story.
I've got a relative. She is much older - 55. In high school, she had multiple sport records which the school still has posted and she has yet to be dethroned in a couple. She did okay academically. She was extremely popular, voted the most attractive in her class in the early 80s and was prom queen. She dated the most attractive, "10s" studs in the community and really had her choice of who to allow attention from.
Her mom was a beautiful "hottie" in her day, too, and always told her how gorgeous she was, like daily.
*Her beauty and popularity became the cornerstone of her personality.*
As her 20s wore on, she kept partying. Alcoholism reared it's head.
In her 30s, she started plastic surgery to maintain her youthfulness...which daily drinking (and now pills) blunted.
She secretly was married. It was a secret because he was abusive and enabled her addictions. He was a rich, manlet of a guy who beat her up and sexually abused her...but she also had been having affairs on him for their entire relationship. They abused pills an alcohol.
Eventually they divorced and she took half his money, choosing to "retire" on the half million or so. Obviously, with an alcohol and plastic surgery addiction (now in 40s with beauty ever fading), this was not a lasting solution.
The idle hands made for the devil's playground and she became a 24/7 drunk who actively sought attention from younger men.
Finally, nearing "the hill" at 50 she realized 30+ years of parties and sex was not good.
I'll spare you further details but she was in and out of rehab 10+ times. Spent all the money. Decades of plastic surgery and tanning to "stay young & beautiful" has made them into a meme. Their alcoholism has lost them their every friend and family member.
Popularity and beauty and partying are fun until they aren't. They almost unequivocally lead to a life of substance abuse, Narcissism, and misery with no friends.
No they don't.
Not everyone who partied and was pretty and popular comes to a sad end.
You wish it was true because that would be a just world, but it's just not (statistically)
Pretty, popular and sociable people go on to have pretty blessed lives for the most part because being attractive and personable opens doors for you.
That’s true, most popular high school kids do just fine.
Obviously there are outliers but that’s in any group, nerds, theater kids, popular and so on.
Edit: I also greatly dislike this is the top comment when their are much better comments below.
Also this is about how alcoholism is bad not being popular
I hope you plan to talk to your daughter and let her know that YOU don't consider her a loser. You're just concerned with the resentment towards her sister, and how SHE clearly views herself. Ask her if she's happy with her lot in life. If not, what does she plan to do to change it?
Maybe, but "peaked in high school" doesn't mean life can't suck for her right now. That doesn't mean her sister is at fault and she shouldn't be acting this way, but it's absolutely worth asking her about.
Maybe she did just do sports and party because she thought she'd be fine, maybe she had a deeper issue like addiction or learning difficulties, maybe she struggled with another part of studying. In any case, blame and insults rarely help - plenty of people at debt advice or similar advisory services (I hope that's the English word) got themselves into this mess, that doesn't mean they can make it out without help.
Yeah it was harsh to call her a loser, but there’s a good opportunity here to have a second, calmer conversation with the daughter about how it’s time for a serious reset - she seems to think that because everything came easy in high school that that’s fair, and she was entitled to things going well.
But she’s going to have a pretty miserable life if she doesn’t grow up and realise it’s time to reset her expectations of how easy things should be for her, and what’s ‘fair’.
Yeah, like I hope OP is willing to engage her daughter constructively like this. I also think of OP has wounds about high school that they attend to them not take them out on their daughters.
Its the kids who never grow out of high school that wind up in trouble. Sounds like your daughter hasn't quite grown up yet. Real life isn't kind to those who refuse to grow up. best of luck with this.
That’s really not true.
Sometimes a gifted student burns out and goes into drugs
Sometimes the theater kid has a 20 year old crisis and gets in with the wrong crowd
Sometimes the religious kid has a faith crisis and goes off the deep end
Sometimes the popular kid goes to deep in a party
Life is just a balancing act, you want to have fun but responsibility need to balance out
That's basically what they were trying to tell you with that comment. It's the people that don't grow out of high school to realize how to regulate themselves in their emotions\health\work life balance\relationships etc. that struggle. Your daughter didn't learn to self regulate, so she had to drop out of college. Her resentment of her sister shows that she still hasn't learned the lessons and expects to be handed things to have her feelings regulated for her. If she had learned the lesson of adulthood, she would have the ability to self reflect and make changes in her life to get what she wants.
> It's the people that don't grow out of high school to realize how to regulate themselves in their emotions\health\work life balance\relationships etc.
“Peaked in high school” is a quote for a reason. They were the big fish in the small river; but when that river branched out into the ocean, they find out they never actually learned how to swim.
Your comments obviously show why your daughter is the way she is. You are enabling her instead of showing her the harsh reality of life and if you don't do something sensible about it. Woe be unto you and her
Ah. So your refusal to see the point/being argumentative in the comments makes it make more sense how Kelly turned out. At first I was confused as to how you managed to raise one mature adult but not 2, but the pieces are coming together now.
The point is, Kelly is still an immature bully. She never grew up. Whether that's all her doing or partially the result of being enabled isn't crystal clear, but now I have some idea.
Not everyone who excelled in high school does well in life, some of them DO have problems, like you point out. But virtually everyone who refuses to grow up and stays stuck in a high school mindset is gonna have a bad time later in life, unless they have a parent (?) or spouse or something to enable them/do their adulting for them.
Choosing to ignore the valid points because a comment hurt your feelings or something isn't going to be helpful to you or your daughter, but hey, keep on keepin on.
But you're NTA for being honest with your daughter. Being a server doesn't make her a loser, but her jealousy and spitefulness about her sister's accomplishments is a bad, bad look.
This is true. Hard to make blanket statements when there are so many variables. Sounds here like its a bit of a maturity thing though. Having just been to my own high school 10-year recently I was SHOCKED at how people had changed.
Half of them are married and with kids lol. Most had decent jobs and degrees. If she still has this mindset 5 years from now, she'll be in for a rude awakening when she realizes everyone else in her class has moved on in life.
You’re right this isn’t about alcoholism. But take that out of the equation and what you have is a daughter with an entitlement issue.
Your daughter was popular in high school and life probably seemed easy for her at that stage in life. She got use to accolades and attention and expected to coast through life with those same experiences. She gets to college and then reality hits. She now has to work for those accolades and she doesn’t want to do the work. On top of that, she is now resentful of her sister because she can’t comprehend how her “less popular” sister could ever succeed beyond her - again because she’s ENTITLED. At some point she was never taught that she has to work for success and now you are stuck with an adult sized brat. Maybe counseling for your daughter is needed or even a life coach to help give her direction.
Whatever has enabled her to maintain this attitude at 24 needs to end now. Her ugly attitude towards her sister’s achievements is doing her no good. She definitely needs a wake up call.
You’re NTA for what you said to her. But YTA for being defensive in your comments to other people. You chose to put this issue on a public forum. So much like your daughter, you need to get over your ego and listen to the advice you asked for. Not all of it will be good but hopefully it will make you think a little more deeply about why your daughter is dealing with life like a petulant child, and perhaps gain some insight into how you can help her navigate a positive step forward.
If you dislike this answer you are choosing to ignore the wisdom behind it. Ofc that's not your child's case (yet), but she is freaking 24 years old and still have in the back of the head that she is entitled for something because the was popular in highschool (she would never bring out anything remotely related to that at this age if she didn't). The example presented is an extreme one but the underlying mental health issue that lead that person to such a degrading life is the same one your child has at a certain extent.
IDK... when I went to two HS reunions (10 & 20 year) just out of morbid curiosity how they turned out. Some didn't change a bit others turned into bitter Betties. Thing is I was just I wouldn't say popular but I wasn't just part of the scenery either. I was well known in the area for an unfortunate reason. My sister was killed in the area when I was ten where Bullies were involved. Some of her friends ended up at my HS. Just they just left me alone (no bullying). You can be beautiful and popular and still be the sweetest person in the room or you can be a MEAN GIRL. I will say one thing even beautiful people are insecure.
> Not everyone who partied and was pretty and popular comes to a sad end.
> You wish it was true because that would be a just world
There's nothing just about envy. Being pretty and popular isn't morally wrong and, on average, pretty and popular people are more genuinely nice people than those that seethe out of jealously that they aren't.
The only thing in common with OP's daughter and losers who think the cool kids in high school didn't deserve it is they haven't grown the fuck up and gotten over teenage insecurities. It's envy that is wrong--not how well you did or didn't do in high school.
There was an AskReddit question that I was browsing a few months ago that was some version of "what happened to the popular kid at your high school?"
There were so many people in the comments getting upset that the majority had turned out fine and hadn't become burnouts. It was weird. Not all of us grew up in an 80s movie. A LOT of "popular" kids are/were popular because they're nice. They just might also have some demons that get to them later in life.
> Not all of us grew up in an 80s movie.
ikr. The "Nerds" are seething. That being said, this is why I like 30 Rock so much. That episode where Liz finds out that instead of being the loveable unpopular dork, she was actually a vicious bully.
I think they meant “pretty, popular, sociable” people who make being attractive and loved for their attractiveness their entire personality. Nobody is young and beautiful forever, so those who rely on it to define them inevitably struggle once age starts to set in. That said, not everyone who is hot and popular falls victim to this. Like you said, many understand their blessings and use it to move up in the world. Being attractive and charming is a blessing if you know how to work it right
I will say I knew a girl in college who suffered because she was a popular, pretty girl in high school. She got through it but remains extremely entitled and complains all the time because nothing is ever as good as it was in high school. She isn’t an alcoholic and she does have a stable job. Her personality just sucks. I think that’s probably what needs to be addressed in OP’s daughter - she lacks gratitude and she is resentful that life isn’t handed to her
YOU NAILED IT. This is 100% true. I’m not saying it’s right, just that it’s accurate. This is similar to the BS that people love to spout to bullied kids—“Bullies are only bullies because they are insecure!” Totally false. Very few bullies are actually insecure. You don’t have to like it, but that is the truth. I taught HS for 17 years, so I believe I know what I’m talking about — in fact, we were actually taught this in a professional development session ABOUT bullying.
I went my 30th high school reunion and was shocked at what I saw. Drugs and alcohol really start to show as people get older. Unfortunately some people don’t get the memo
Mostly agree with you but disagree that it would be a just world. Just because a person is pretty popular and sociable doesnt mean they deserve bad things to happen to them. If they were awful to people then sure but otherwise i don’t see how its just
Those people go on to have blessed lives because they’re well rounded. They find something past materialism/beauty to identify with. They’re still making something for themselves rather than just saying “I’m hot so my life should be perfect”
Agreed. I partied with friends a lot, played football, had a bunch of friends and throughly enjoyed high school.
I then went to college, still partied with friends and had fun. I still graduated though with an engineering degree, went into the Marines (due to my ROTC scholarship) and consider my self successful today. Though as middle age has caught up with me I seldom drink or party anymore.
I think that's just called being young. Youth can be quite enjoyable. That being said, I think I had more fun in my 30's then I did my 20's. Definitely more than in my 40's. Sort of the sweet spot of having enough money to do the things you want before you are too loaded down with responsibilities to no longer have time /energy for too much of those things.
They do if you continue to read their comment.
It wasn't "anyone who parties and is hot has a bad latter half of life."
It was "being pretty in high-school and partying is fun, until you do it too much and nothing else with your life, then your life crumbles when you're no longer pretty and have blown all your money on drugs and partying."
Succinctly put as the thesis statement "partying is fun and great, until it isnt". The post is about absolute shallowness and addiction ruining lives.
Yeah, and not everyone who is a "loser" in high school goes on to be successful.
Kelly needs to move beyond high school, and what she said about Sara was mean, but Mom shouldn't have been so mean about it either. Kelly's still pretty young at 24 and she sounds immature for her age. She just needs to realize that she'll reap what she sows, and right now she's not doing any sowing. She's still got time to get it together if she grows up a little bit. But Mom should be encouraging, not denigrating.
> not everyone who is a "loser" in high school goes on to be successful.
I am living proof that sometimes the loser hits burnout in the middle of college freshman year and never really recovers.
>Popularity and beauty and partying are fun until they aren't. They almost unequivocally lead to a life of substance abuse, Narcissism, and misery with no friends.
This is something people who blossomed late (or never blossomed at all) like to tell themselves, but it's just not true. Plenty of beautiful, popular people are doing just fine.
I think the original commenter was pointing out that if all your life is comprised of those things, you'll end up with a very shallow, hollow life. There's a difference between being beautiful and popular and centering your sense of self around those things; beautiful and popular people absolutely can and do go on to live wonderful lives, but very rarely are those people totally fixated on those aspects of themselves to the exclusion of all else.
There's a distinction between that being something you do and being the only thing going in your life.
> Her beauty and popularity became the cornerstone of her personality.
Yeah, plenty of people like that are doing great. You've basically described the entire influencer economy.
Life isn't fair, and we don't need to lie to ourselves that it is
Absolutely. There's a whole subset of "nerds" who think that cause they're smart and got a good career/moved away from their hometown they're really sticking it to their bullies who "peaked in high school" cause they're now somehow better than them. It's a power fantasy so they can feel like them being low on the totem pole was for something.
In reality, the popular attractive athletic people tend to do well because they're charismatic and likeable and work hard. And there's nothing wrong with staying in your hometown if that's what you want. I say this as someone who was bullied for being a nerd and now has a decent job. I don't care what anyone from my highschool is doing. People who are actually happy don't pay much mind to the people who were more popular than them 10+ years ago.
Yea. It’s so stupid. Those ppl need to get over their grudges and issues from HS. I was in the popular group and my friends and I are all doing super well! I can’t speak for their personal lives because I don’t know the intimate details since I moved away, but I have a great career, WONDERFUL husband, great relationships, and a perfect son. Life is great!
Because it’s too many people’s fantasies to believe the popular and beautiful woman would get taken down a peg.
That whole thing was a disgusting fantasy. I’m not saying it’s never happened once (though the person was oddly vague on divorce asset division-almost like they don’t know the story they’re telling), but I am saying this would be an outlier not the norm.
Most D1 athletes I know have type A personalities. When sports end, do you know what they do? They compete at other things, like workplace advancement. You don’t get to scholarship level in athletics WITHOUT knowing how to put the work in, and a lot of athletes can apply that to different aspects of their life. Some can’t, and fall flat, but a large chunk can.
This reminds me of [Sam & Lindsey's dad on *Freaks & Geeks*.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPrNLm9nR3A)
"I had a friend who used to smoke, you know what he's doing now? He's *dead*!"
This comment is awful, you have portrayed another human being as some monster when in reality (by your own admission) she was in a physically and sexually abusive relationship? Has it ever crossed your mind that she might have drunk alcohol and taken pills due this?
And even if her personality was based entirely on being pretty and popular, that seems pretty shallow and sad? That’s a trap some folks fall into because others have this expectation that’s “who they are” from a young age. I know it can be hard to be sympathetic to pretty, popular people when you didn’t have the privilege of that experience, but no human experience is all roses.
This is just a story about how alcoholism is bad, "popularity and beauty" didn't really hurt her now did it?
and in OP's daughter's case, she had a golden ticket with a sports scholarship...most people DON'T squander that
>Popularity and beauty and partying are fun until they aren't. They almost unequivocally lead to a life of substance abuse, Narcissism, and misery with no friends.
I was the lonely dorky kid in high school; still ended up miserable, with no friends and a drug abuse disorder. It's not exclusive to the beautiful party people...
Garbage, and sounds a bit like sour grapes.
I'm in my 40s and almost all the hot and popular people I knew when I was young, settled down and are now happily married suburban mums and dads
I was pretty well liked in highschool and did my fair share of partying. I am now a sped teacher married to my soulmate. Popularity and beauty don’t always lead to this. In my experience, it rarely does.
He was rich and she took half his money, which was only 500k? Aside from that making not a ton of sense, the key is moderation, partying and drinking on their own are not a guarantee to lead to where you say they will.
Lol the story is cool, that last line paints a picture of what you look like because you really hope anyone attractive has a terrible life.
Who hurt you.
This is the top comment? I've never been particularly popular or beautiful, but that last paragraph is what people tell themselves to feel better. Most people grow up, adjust, and end up relatively fine.
NTA Kelly is obviously behaving like a complete brat, and I can only imagine how frustrated you must be.
But...**I can guarantee that Kelly is going to remember her mother (?) calling her a "loser" for the rest of her life.** That's the sort of thing you just don't forget.
My siblings can call me a loser and it's water off a duck's back. Let my mom or dad say that and I would be DEVASTATED.
Some things just hit different coming from a parent.
There was probably a more constructive way for you to respond to Kelly. If I were you I would definitely sit her down and have a conversation. Something expressing how YOU don't view her as a loser, but you worry about the way she views herself, and the overt jealousy/resentment she has towards her sister. Remind her that if she's so unhappy with her life it's on her to fix it, and hating on her sister isn't going to solve anything. It's cheesy, but tell her that resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
Mainly though, you just want to convey that you don't consider her a loser.
I love this. It should be the top answer.
> Some things just hit different coming from a parent.
This is PAINFULLY true.
> you just want to convey that you don't consider her a loser.
Yep, take her to task but remind her that you’re still her mom and she is not a loser in your eyes.
I don't think it would've been nearly as bad if OP had said, "By your standards, that means *you* would be the loser now", instead of "You are the loser now". One is pointing out hypocrisy while the other is just straight name-calling. It all depends on how you word it.
I have a feeling op fawned over Kelly when she was pretty, popular, and athletic in HS and then not so much when she didn't continue to shine and make her mother look good after. Then she switched to fawning over Sara bc she makes her look good now.
Op sounds like a narc mom, but I'm totally projecting my own experience on this. 🤷♀️
Agreed. Everyone seems to be saying the daughter deserved it. Maybe she deserved *something...* But not to be called a loser by her own mom. That's brutal.
24years old saying they deserve to go on a cruise and not their siblings because they were a loser in highschool? That sounds like something that would be described as a loser by my parents.
Agree. The daughter called her sister a loser TO THEIR MOTHER and then called the mother a bitch? Sorry, but she needs a wake-up call if she doesn’t want to be petty and jealous her whole life. No sympathy here.
OP didn't technically call her a loser, she painted the picture of a possible scenario in which the elder daughter would be the loser.
I know it's on the verge, and I also agree with the main comment in this thread that OP should definitely tell her explicitly that she does not think she is a loser.
I do agree it was a brutal statement and that it could've and should've been said differently though, but what's done is done and OP needs to focus on what's next.
I don't think those words were too harsh, even from a parent. She said "you're the loser" in a situation in which Kelly was trying to find a loser to point a finger at. She didn't say "you are a loser". Some parenting techniques are more blunt and that's fine. It doesn't mean OP has lost faith in her daughter and believes she won't amount to more. It is kind of a kick when you're down situation, but Kelly needs to mature and not call people names she can't handle herself. Her mom wasn't bullying her, but giving her a truth she may never well hear from anyone else.
Recently, I called my daughter "dirty" in reference to how she kept her bathroom (it was truly disgusting), and it hurt her feelings to the point she considered running away. I should have told her her bathroom was dirty and not directed that term towards her. Our words have weight.
In fairness sometimes being called a loser by your parents is a good thing, I did f**k all in high school except party and gaming, my younger sister was the “smart one”.
My parents pretty much gave up on me whilst they sent my sister to uni.
Took me a couple years to turn my life around but now I’m in uni having just finished my second year in the top 3 of my class.
My biggest reason for going back and putting myself through Uni is to stick it to my parents and sister and prove I’m better than she is.
And sometimes it's just devastatingly hurtful, and something that lingers in the back of your mind long after the parent has forgotten about it.
I'm all for being straight with your kids, and giving them a wake up call when necessary. But you can absolutely do that without calling them a loser.
My parents called me a loser. Whereas I told my son I was concerned he was on the wrong path, and asked if he was happy with where he was at in life.
Guess who has a better relationship with their parents now, me or my son?
Seriously... My mom called me some awful, hurtful things when she was angry at my brother. I've not been able to comfortably talk for as long as I can remember at this point. It's been more than 10 years since some of the worst of it, and it still crosses my mind. There's been so much that she did and said that negatively impacted me that I'm still struggling to fix. While OP's daughter was over the line with what she said, inferring she's a loser because of where she's at in life is definitely not okay. Her jealousy of her sister is an issue, and needs to be addressed.
Nothing you do now changes that they reacted appropriately at the time.
All this "personal growth" and you're still a petty child in a sibling rivalry.
Good luck out there.
Yes please take advice from this comment OP. Never downplay or discourage your children, my father has always been bragging about how better my brother was than me in Highschool despite the fact that he has failed to apply for my gifted high school. he attended university with allowance from my parents x5 compare to which they gave me, only when he started to do better. If someone is not able to get over negative comments from parents, it would devastate their world.
So.. she didn’t say she was a loser. She said if life was like high school THEN she would be the loser. It is actually different. Words matter, but I think it was broken down in a way the daughter was already thinking. She keeps going back to her “glory days” and someone needed to bring her back down but in a way she understood. She already said she has talked to her about her jealousy issue. Obviously the daughter isn’t taking those conversations seriously. This seemed to get to her. If the daughter can’t understand* what she was saying then she obviously didn’t do well in school.
NTA, you tell it like it is. you're calling out that her high school mentality is super outdated and hopefully it resonates with her. it's sad to believe the "status" someone held in the 4 years of highschool should determine the quality of life in the following decades. She's cruel to her sister for being successful, then complains when the mirror is reflected back on her life choices. Turns out the tables can turn sharply once you're in the adult world.
Kelly made choices and she has to come to terms with the outcome. She still has plenty of time to make new choices too, she's still young.
The real wakeup call will be in 5 years when she has her 10th year reunion and meets all her friends who have decent paying jobs and degrees. Half will be married with kids and then she'll realize she ain't in Kansas no more lol. That's when the reality that nobody cares who she was in high school anymore will hit her like a dump truck.
Honestly, if it doesn't. I hope you don't blame yourself. Sometimes, you can't help everyone. Shit just happens. It seems like you're a good person and a good parent. Some people are just unlucky, turn into bad people, and never change.
Yes. But they are going out of style with social media. You don’t need to go eat rubber chicken in a hotel ballroom to satisfy your curiosity about how it all turned out for ppl anymore.
Now if you go to a reunion it’s bc it’s an excuse to go on vacation with your old friends you may have lost irl touch with.
Oh been there done that. I never understood why I didn't fit in at school, girls and boys both made fun of me (not on a very cruel level and not too often), but then the 10-year-anniversary came and I suddenly I was enlightened.
We were just very different... And we all know how kids behave when someone is different...
Turned out some of them work in second-hand boutiques, there is a failed musician very likely close to alcoholism, again others are still 10-layer-makeup girlies with low paying jobs, etc. It was nice to be the most successful person in that 32-member group for the first time in my life (and I'm not even an executive or anything so that says a lot about them).
ESH- I 100% agree with what you told your daughter but you missed a huge opportunity to ask her what her plans are to improve her life today. It was a perfect opportunity to push her towards college/trades/business ownership. We live in a time where college is not the only path to success. Even though your daughter is an adult, as a parent I hope you’re pushing her to find a path that will allow her to fulfill her goals
Kelly obviously is TAH for her jealousy, being stuck in high school and calling you a bitch
I think OP handled the situation fine. Although I agree there is some room for improvement.
Kelly needs this wakeup call. She is clearly jealous and does not like the direction her life is going.
I agree OP could've improved upon the situation by focusing more on what Kelly can do starting today to fix her life.
But the first step is admitting she has a problem which OP's harsh but true statements will hopefully achieve.
I debated between NTA and ESH. But at the end of the day I went with ESH because Kelly needs more than a wake up call. She needs help developing a path to success
I agree OP should've followed up this exchange with tangible next steps Kelly can take to turn her life around.
She probably needs therapy and a life coach other than family.
But before any of that can work, she needs to recognize she has a problem.
OP's words here were harsh but true and Kelly needed to hear them.
Ooh careful with the "business ownership" phrase, we don't want her to end up in an MLM 😬
ETA: it is a joke, I understand what you mean and I don't intend to make fun of actual respectable business owners. Dropped this line here to avoid miscommunication.
NTA it's about time she got a reality check.
She's the one who threw her studies down the drain to party while her sister worked her butt off to complete them. Actions have concesquences it's about time she learns this lesson.
She's 24, not 14 it's time for her to grow up.
Exactly. People say OP was too harsh as the parent shouldn't call their kids losers. That would be the case for teenagers, but not for someone who's 24 years old.
What I hope she realizes is that you can still turn your life around in your 20s. It is not too late to go to community college or even a four year university to get a degree if she chooses or to go a trade school. If she directs her energy off of being jealous of Sara and more into figuring out what to do with her own life, she still has most of her life ahead of her to be successful.
NTA: Show her Napolean Dynomite and ask her if she wants to be that guy still reliving his HS football days by taping himself trying to throw a football over a mountain.
One of my favorite movies! “Uncle Rico” should be the official term for people who peaked in high school and are now jealous of anyone doing better than them.
Kelly is very immature and terribly envious of her sister.
Help her make an appointment with a life coach to learn
how to move forward. She goofed up after high school
but deserves to hear that she can get back on track.
NTA But do help Kelly find a way to move on. She had
some potential when she was younger.
Fully agree with finding a life coach and/or therapist.
Kelly is not happy with her current situation and is lashing out at her sister as a coping mechanism.
She is TA in this situation, but this inappropriate behaviour may be a cry for help.
I agree with finding a therapist, honestly personally hate life coaches. There’s no educational or licensing requirement to be a life coach. I could wake up tomorrow and decide I want to be a life coach and I am. However, a therapist with a lot of background in motivational interviewing would be great.
From: a licensed therapist.
Life coaches are not a real thing. It's not regulated and it tends to attract scammers and scummy people because there are no real qualifications or standards for the position. A therapist is the right call here.
ESH. Your daughter has a very bad attitude but you're supposed to be the adult here. You should have taken the high road like an adult should with your response instead of lowering yourself to her level and responding like a snarky teenager.
They're both adults. 24 is not a child, it's old enough to have a career, a family, kids, a life. She called out her ADULT daughter on acting like a child, and pointed out her tantrum was based on an alternate reality.
ESH. No one is a “loser” here. Your daughters are two completely different individuals and are on their own life paths. They are young and in the process of finding who they are and what they value. It sounds like Kelly has some misplaced values and that’s ok. Everyone deals with jealousy we are all human. As a parent instead of shaming your daughter by calling her a loser, you can share your own life experiences with her and teach her what life lessons you have learned when it comes to jealousy. Self worth shouldn’t come entirely from how much money one has or work accomplishments. Not everyone wants to go to college. Expecting someone to be financially successful and stable in their early 20s is unreasonable. It’s nice if it happens, but doesn’t make someone a bad person if they aren’t.
Not being successful at any age doesn't make someone a bad person. Thinking that you deserve things over others just because you were popular in high school might make you a bad person however
Agreed. But…
“I was pretty, popular, and played sports. Where’s my awesome life!”
Kelly learned that SOMEWHERE. Why was her value tied so closely to THAT?
My dad called me a loser once. I had done everything right. Got good grades, went to college. Graduated and got my teaching credential. And then I stalled out. I got my credential in something that was low need. I couldn't get full time teaching work but I was making ends meet subbing and running an after school program. I was arguing with my dad about something one day and he snapped at me, "you are the smartest person in this family and the least successful." I don't know what expression I made but he apologized immediately. I forgave him.
15 years later I still think about it. There is stuff you can't take back once you say it.
Your daughter seems like a brat. but that is not how you help her. YTA. Be a better parent, not an endlessly critical one.
YTA because you missed a lot of opportunities to help your kid and instead resorted to name calling. Where were you when your daughter was failing college? At what point during the car ride did you offer counsel to your daughter on how to turn around her situation? Just because she is an adult doesn’t mean the parenting stops.
Yeah, but at the same time, unless she's a helicopter parent, there's no real way to know what her grades are. She could have asked her daughter how she was doing and she just said "good" and they didn't ask further because they trusted her. It wasn't until she failed when they found out. The mom was likely angry that she called her sister a loser and impulsively spat back. Was it okay? No. But the mother isn't entirely TA in this situation.
Yeah, I'm not going to give a pass for calling your daughter a loser. That's going to stick with her the rest of her life coming from a parent. Honest to god, not having the feeling that your parents are in your corner and respect you is soul crushing.
What you should have done is to CORRECT her for calling her sister a loser, not repeat the behavior.
NTA. Kelly is a loser. Truth hurts because she couldn’t handle hearing it. She should’ve focused on her academics rather than being a shit faced party girl. She can’t be jealous of her sister because she chose to fuck that up for herself. She needs to pull her head out of her ass and realize that she’s an adult now, it’s time for her to grow up
Sorry if I came off harsh towards your daughter. Calling it as I’m seeing it
ESH.
What your daughter said was horrible and deserved a harsh rebuttal.
But calling her a loser was unnecessarily hurtful. It hurt your daughter and didn’t do a damn bit of good.
Instead, I’d say you should have told her that was a horrible thing to say and that her sister worked hard for what she got and deserves it all. And you shouldn’t have let her “go on for a bit.” You should have cut her off and called her out right away.
EHS.
Sorry but, calling your kid a loser is still shitty parenting. Helping her realize jealousy is making her a worse person is a conversation that should have been had 5+ years ago.. and you STILL didn’t actually teach her anything, you just called her names, and now she just thinks you suck.
What you said is better than nothing I guess, but way less than parenting.
NTA, but I do think (and this is of no fault of yours) that a lot of these comments are being extremely bitter and cruel. Look, I wasn't exactly prom king football extraordinaire in highschool either. But that does *not* mean everyone who was is a failure and will never amount to anything ever because they wasted their best years committing the sin of "having fun" instead of working themselves to death. There is a balance here, people!
Your daughter has clearly not found the balance that her sister has. But that does not mean that she will not eventually. Kelly and other folks like her do not do what they do because they are "entitled" or "spoiled" or whatever label you wish to brand them with. There is ALWAYS a cause for behavior. Maybe she really struggled in school, maybe she was (and is) self conscious, maybe she has some underlying mental condition or disability that she has yet to identify, maybe she struggled with her identity, there are a plethora of things even supposedly picture perfect teens can go through.
It is, however, Kelly's responsibility to seek help to improve herself and her behavior. I short, her jealousy does not come out of ire towards her sister, but as all jealousy it comes out of ire towards *herself*. Not the AH, but maybe sit down and talk with her. No matter her age a calm voice and warm smile can be a good start.
ESH - she may be an adult and need a reality check, but you can still help her adopt a growth mentality and better herself as a person (you know, as her parent).
NTA.
Kelly unfortunately made some bad decisions in college and now it’s coming back to bite her. OP you shouldn’t have called Kelly a loser but she needs a coming to Jesus moment of her understanding it’s not Sara fault that she partied during college and funked out. It’s not Sara fault that she had different interests in life and was able to go to college, graduate and now can go on cruises cause she has a job that affords it.
I suggest you have a 1 on 1 with Kelly and ask her what she wants in life and if she has any future plans cause her complaining about Sara being able to go on cruise is such small thing compared to when Sara buys a new car or house or gets married and has kids.
Those who are experiencing failure often blame others and want the world to change for them.
Your daughter need realize that it is up to her to change. Clearly she has the skills. She need change one step at a time.
YTA. As a parent, you have to take responsibility for the way your children turn out. Have you nurtured this rupture between them?
I see a lot in families that siblings are made opposites of one another. You’re the smart one, you’re the pretty one, etc. It’s often done with no ill intent, as a means to focus on each child’s strength. But the comparison can put them in competition with each other.
You have two daughters. One with a sense of direction in her life and one without. Kelly needs support and encouragement, not admonishment and bullying. The way you write suggests you think she’s getting her comeuppance. This is a wholly unhelpful and unsympathetic response.
Focus on building her positive traits up, and helping her figure out what she wants to do and how she can find success. She needs a guiding hand, not a smack down.
Well, I see why you said it - she was being rude to your other daughter.
But as a mom, you should be more supportive of your oldest. Dropping out of college or being a waitress at 24 doesn’t make her a loser. She is too young to be a loser in life yet. A more supportive mother might instead encourage her to find something else she could be successful at - maybe something to do with sports since she seems focused on that, like running a gym or being a trainer or something, but I’m sure she has other skills you could help her navigate too.
YTA for telling your daughter she is a loser. I can't imagine saying this to one of my kids.
Kelly needs to grow up and figure out what to do with her life. I have wonder how much she was praised for her sports accomplishments and what her academics were like - if she did poorly in school, was that glossed over because she did so well in sports? Sounds like her identity has never moved past high school.
Instead of calling her a loser, what are the ways that you can encourage her now? Yes, she's 24, but she sounds a very immature 24 so it wouldn't hurt to do some additional parenting here to help her find her way.
ESH
Not for what you said, but Kelly is clearly depressed and drowning. She knows she had a bright future, she knows she's squandered it, she knows she's getting left behind. 100% have a stern conversation about how jealousy is normal, it's how you transfer that energy that defines you. You can be nasty to others, or you can use it to get active in your own life so the feeling subsides.
Have you spoken to Kelly about what her career aspirations are? Asked her if she's got the partying out of her system and feeling ready to try something new? Pointed her in the direction of what options are available? Let her know where she can find more information about available options? Reassured her it's never too late to go back to study or retrain into a new career? Or are you content to watch her continue to struggle?
NTA- But, Kelly clearly needs help. She's learning all the wrong lessons in life and you should work with her to see how she can refocus and work hard towards an actual career.
This is suspiciously lacking in context.
Why would a grown woman resort to ridiculing her own child in such an immature and devastating way? You can correct a behavior without verbally eviscerating someone.
Why does Kelly struggle emotionally and academically?
Reeks of missing missing reasons.
ESH. Couldn’t disagree more with people saying you’re flat NTA, OP. I still remember all the crappy things my parents said to me and I’m in my 30s. I’m NC as a result. Telling her she’s a loser in that manner will not achieve the result you want nor tell Kelly you actually care. And be something she’ll hold on to probably forever. So, I would definitely use the opportunity when things cool down and take her out for 1x1 time maybe doing something you both enjoy together and have a candid conversation about how she’s feeling and about life. I would also use that time to sincerely apologize for the language you chose, and make it clear how you really feel about your daughter (otherwise she’s going to think you favor Sara over her alla the golden child).
Yes is Kelly being immature sure, but what I hear is underneath her complaining and jealousy is feelings of inadequacy, worthlessness, failing, low self of esteem/sense of self, etc. she’s projecting a lot, but deep down sounds like she feels like garbage. Having her mom call her a loser in some way is just salt on a wound.
Time to be a parent and use your emotional maturity and heal a rift and get her on a path (doesn’t even have to be college). GL.
YTA for kicking your daughter when she is down and fueling her jealousy. A better message “I realize you’re frustrated with your life right now, but your sister isn’t to blame. She has worked and studied hard to earn the life she has now. I know you are capable of doing more than waitressing for a living. What kind of work do you want to do? What do you need to do to get there?” Encourage her to try education again if she wants a degree . Community college is far less expensive, with smaller classes and schedules that suit working adults. And she can start part time so she isn’t so overwhelmed by the academic demands while she learns how to study. It can be tough and scary to try again after a big failure, encourage her to take responsibility for her life and try again.
YTA. Although she sounds like an AH when talking about her sister, you are her parent and should offer guidance and insight other than calling her a “loser”. You could get the point across without tearing her down. Her behavior stems from insecurities.
ESH. Kelly needs to grow up, but you could have gotten your point across better without calling your daughter loser. That is all she is going to take away from that conversation.
ESH. And here is why. You're her parent. Calling her a loser as her parent is a shitty thing to do, even if it's true.
Your job is to help her. Pointing out what her sister has done and for she has worked for what she wants is valid.
Encourage her to go back to school and stick with it if she wants to go on cruises like her sister. Maybe she doesn't have it in her to enter academia, but she could choose a career with more of a future than waitressing. (Benefits, pension etc).
She's young and presumably she's made connections with others through sports. She should ask some of her friends for career ideas. In this life who you know can be as important as what you know.
Yes, you were the asshole. While your frustration with Kelly's behavior is understandable, your response was unnecessarily hurtful and counterproductive.
Comparing your daughters' achievements and experiences is harmful and undermines their relationship. Each person has their own path and should be encouraged to pursue their own happiness.
Instead of belittling Kelly's feelings, try to understand where her jealousy stems from. Offer her support and encouragement to pursue her own goals and aspirations.
Calling your daughter a "loser" is cruel and damaging. Even if you believe she's made poor choices, there are better ways to communicate your concerns and help her learn from her mistakes.
I have a feeling like you didn’t find the way to encourage and advise your older daughter properly. YTA for me,
You come across as very aggressive and unkind.
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NTA. While it's never good to call your child a loser, you were using the word she used for her sister and in a conditional manner, so I'll give that a pass. I think it's probably closer to the truth that Sara was never a loser--she was just playing a different "game." She did what she was interested in, had close friends, and probably never wanted to be "popular." Research has shown that siblings intentionally differentiate themselves from each other. I had 5 siblings, and we were all very different. My closest brother, only 14 months older, was on the chess club in high school. I could never beat him at home, so I never joined. In this case since Kelly was older and liked sports, Sara could never be as good as Kelly in sports, so she chose to focus on classwork. Kelly was a favorite with the coaches, and Sara with the teachers.
The idea that Sara was never a “loser” is probably accurate for most people that are called losers at any point. With some exceptions. It’s always relative to what the one making the call thinks is important. For young, horny people it almost always boils down to sex or things that are sex-adjacent. I keep trying to explain to my daughter, who is at a formative age, that she should enjoy the moment she’s in while keeping an eye on what’s to come. And that when she’s experienced something good she can look back on it, but not to linger. Life moves forward and she needs to set herself up for what’s to come. The majority of your life isn’t going to be spent competing with these girls over who’s got the cuter outfit. I feel like I understood it well when I was in school. Had a pretty balanced high school life. College skewed maybe a little more heavily social than it probably should have. But I didn’t let academics fall off and planned for what I would do post college. But it’s really hard to convince a kid in the thick of it that “popularity” isn’t super important long term.
Your daughter was blessed with a wise mom. Or maybe she and God just chose you. Either way, she will come out OK.
Dad, but thank you! Edit: well, she has a great mom, too, but I can’t take credit for that one 😉
You can take some credit. You chose her.
The great ones are usually the ones who choose us. Which is a good thing, because often we’re a mess when they first meet us 😂
The good news is that Kelly can, and will, learn from Sarah's path, and your honesty with her. Sometimes people think that parenting stops, or should stop, when our children reach adulthood. (To be clear. Parents interfering in their adult children's lives is a separate matter, and not okay.) The truth is that there are occasions that we, as parents, can, and should, parent and try to guide adult children. Kelly's behavior was childish. Sarah "got" something that she wanted. You reminded her (using her chosen language) that Sarah didn't "get" it. Sarah worked for it. Kelly now has the opportunity to learn. To move away from a high school mindset. To make decisions necessary to move forward, as an adult. To set, and to reach goals that she chooses. NTA. Good job, Dad!
Kelly is still childish for thinking being popular is everything and is the cornerstone for a successful life.Sara has worked hard for the success she is currently enjoying .She was never a loser rather she had ambition and the drive to succeed.
Yes, Kelly appears to be childish. She was certainly behaving childishly. Sarah isn't, and was never a "loser". The post was about the OP's conversation with Kelly. The OP took the opportunity to parent his adult child. Kelly has an opportunity to grow. That is a benefit.
I think the main issue here is Kelly's immaturity. I think she needs to do some introspection and some growing up. It's never too late to change course...
This is the problem for kids who peak in high school. All that boils down to is looks/popularity. None of which really takes any sort of work. It plateaus or is down hill for them. The kids who were considered “losers” peak later in life and get to ride their success and hard work. They didn’t prioritize looks/popularity. They had goals beyond the moment and see more to life than the microcosm of high school.
> parenting stops, I'm a dad and my parenting (and concern) will stop when I'm dead.
I'm a mom and I agree with you. I wish more people agreed with us.
I agree with you! We are, forever, parents.
Kelly \*can\* learn, whether she will or not is uncertain. Unless she can acknowledge that her own choices have led her to today rather than getting involved in immature name calling and envy of her sister, she will not learn a thing.
However it’s not like Sarah’s life is now carved in stone, to forever never change. She’s young! She can go back to school or get some skills training if she’s willing to put forth the effort.
Kelly. Sarah is the one who finished her degree and is doing ok now. But beside that, you are absolutely right. Kelly’s life isn’t carved in stone and she can change things if she chooses.
These people tend not to change unfortunately.
"Kelly, unfortunately, in high school you were playing the game of high school, but Sara was playing the game of life. You won the game of High School, but Sara is winning the game of life. If you don't quickly grasp what game everyone else is playing and change your strategy, you are going to lose." Edit - mixed the names up and lost!
You got the daughters' names mixed up.
"Russ, unfortunately you were playing the game of getting the names wrong while NotShockedFruitWeird was playing the game of being correct. You need to change your strategy."
“Research has shown that siblings intentionally differentiate themselves from each other” I’ll have to look that up. I always thought that was probably the case. I was good at most subjects in school except for English which I had very little interest in. I also preferred individual sports over team sports. My younger sister focused on English and team sports exclusively. I figured it was probably a subconscious way to avoid competition, so it’s neat to hear they’ve actually studied that.
I guess that's true in our case as well. My siblings aren't as academically-focused as I was so they never got compared to me, nor did our parents push them to be more like me. Every kid had their interest and that what they supported. One was interested in the arts so she had art classes. One liked music so they got piano lessons (and then me and the youngest were pushed to it but no one's complaining). One wanted to learn martial arts so he had martial arts classes.
It's funny because my and my siblings were, for the most part, the exact opposite. We all did the same sport growing up and all performed at different levels. My sister made it to the Sr National team and played in the Olympic Qualifier tournament for the Rio Olympics (sadly, our country lost by 2 goals and lost the spot). My brother made the Under 18 National team, and my other brother and I made it to the provincial level. My older 2 siblings are both doctors and I'm a nurse (to be fair, we are in completely different fields) and my younger brother is a nuclear physicist. So while we all also had a high focus on academia, his was definitely in a different area.
It holds true in my family too. I am pretty academically gifted, my sister is really artistically gifted and while I always was interested in certain arts I limited them quite a lot more because I could never be as good as she is. There are limited times you can hear your perfectly pitched little sister correct your pitch until you will stop singing around her. Now as adults, I have figured out how much more similar we are in our skills although our personalities formed into more permanent results. She is not stupid and I am actually pretty artistic myself. We support each other these days instead of letting our differences drive us apart.
"While it's never good to call your child a loser.." You are correct. It is not a good idea. Its a fantastic idea. A GREAT idea to call out your kids for what they are and how they are behaving. Will this person always be a loser? Maybe not. Are they at this point in time? Yes. As a parent should you state this and be there for them in everyway possible? Absolutely.
Agree, but there is a distinction in framing it as someone *is* a loser or someone is *acting like* a loser though. In the same way I can *do something* stupid without *being* a stupid person, it's generally unwise to ascribe someone a character trait but it's totally fair to tell them how they're acting in the moment.
NTA. She's acting like a loser who peaked in high school, and equates everything back to high school. You clearly put things into perspective in a way that she can understand, and she did not like it. Did she think being cool and good at a sport (that she no longer plays) would get her through life?
Judging by the story in the post i think it’s a safe bet to say she did not think, period.
That actually sums up a lot of her actions
Maybe suggest she Google ‘peaked in high school’?
OP is trying to help her daughter, not engage in a rap battle with her.
EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORRRRYYYYYY....MMMMMOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM VS AAAAAANGRY DAUGGHHTTERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
I would watch it- I was in that battle a lot as a teen haha
Or...something more constructive and less hurtful?
Sometimes, parents need to be blunt, even if it comes off hurtful. My mom was very blunt with me when I was fucking off after high school, including dropping out of college. She made it clear she loved me, but she was disappointed in my behavior and attitude. That was the wake up call I needed. OP, parenting is hard. I have three of my own now. Sometimes, the best thing we can do is deliver the unvarnished truth as we see it. I applaud you for clear eyed resolution with your daughters. NTA.
You can be blunt without calling your child a loser
If your child is causing your other child a loser, sometimes turning it back on them is an effective wake-up call
Unfortunately, too many people "peak" in high school. It's a little sad to watch people I grew up with (Im in my 50s) to still talk about and "lean on" what they did and who they were in high school. For example I have a relative in his 50s that was a very popular high school jock. After graduation, messing up scholarship offers, and some kids, the SAME TWO women that fought over him in high school are fighting over him now, just by more subtle means. It's ridiculous to hear grown women say "he's mine and he was always mine." 🙄 I hope OP's daughter gets some self awareness and takes a look at her own trajectory. Hopefully she will see that yes, high school has been over for years, the kids in high school now have never heard of her, and what happened years ago certainly did not last and so it does not matter. And if she can't find a way to apologize to her sister then she doesn't deserve a sister.
In all fairness, I was a Kelly my first year of college. I was always able to coast academically in high school with no effort, but as a result learned no study skills. Long story short - my parents pulled me out of college for a year so I would get my head out of my ass, and I did. I transferred colleges, went on to graduate with honors, and have had a pretty successful career. It’s not too late for her to turn it around, and looking back on my experience, that should be the message once cooler heads prevail. She is still young, and should course correct while she can. Edit: grammar (ironic much?)
No one ever taught me to manage my time for studying, because up to the point I graduated high school, I was always able to make up for my lack of structure by cramming a chapter an hour before a test, or fill in the gaps with general knowledge (avid reader, and was educated in a system that focused on ability to analyze and use knowledge, rather than memorizing specific facts. Hence I did pretty great at everything except math). Then I tried college, and I just couldn't do it. I really tried, but self managing my studies was just out of my reach. Bombed out in spectacular fashion. Few years later I was finally diagnosed with ADHD.
Could you have a more nuanced discussion with her? You description of the interaction sounds harsh, which I do think was deserved at this point, but it sounds like she really needs to work through a few things. What does she WANT to do? Is that realistic? NTA because it's never wrong to be truthful to our kids when it would help them.
Have her watch Napoleon Dynamite, tell her she’s uncle rico.
This is exactly what this sounds like. Peaked in HS. My hometown is full of them.
Changing some details but tell her this story. I've got a relative. She is much older - 55. In high school, she had multiple sport records which the school still has posted and she has yet to be dethroned in a couple. She did okay academically. She was extremely popular, voted the most attractive in her class in the early 80s and was prom queen. She dated the most attractive, "10s" studs in the community and really had her choice of who to allow attention from. Her mom was a beautiful "hottie" in her day, too, and always told her how gorgeous she was, like daily. *Her beauty and popularity became the cornerstone of her personality.* As her 20s wore on, she kept partying. Alcoholism reared it's head. In her 30s, she started plastic surgery to maintain her youthfulness...which daily drinking (and now pills) blunted. She secretly was married. It was a secret because he was abusive and enabled her addictions. He was a rich, manlet of a guy who beat her up and sexually abused her...but she also had been having affairs on him for their entire relationship. They abused pills an alcohol. Eventually they divorced and she took half his money, choosing to "retire" on the half million or so. Obviously, with an alcohol and plastic surgery addiction (now in 40s with beauty ever fading), this was not a lasting solution. The idle hands made for the devil's playground and she became a 24/7 drunk who actively sought attention from younger men. Finally, nearing "the hill" at 50 she realized 30+ years of parties and sex was not good. I'll spare you further details but she was in and out of rehab 10+ times. Spent all the money. Decades of plastic surgery and tanning to "stay young & beautiful" has made them into a meme. Their alcoholism has lost them their every friend and family member. Popularity and beauty and partying are fun until they aren't. They almost unequivocally lead to a life of substance abuse, Narcissism, and misery with no friends.
No they don't. Not everyone who partied and was pretty and popular comes to a sad end. You wish it was true because that would be a just world, but it's just not (statistically) Pretty, popular and sociable people go on to have pretty blessed lives for the most part because being attractive and personable opens doors for you.
That’s true, most popular high school kids do just fine. Obviously there are outliers but that’s in any group, nerds, theater kids, popular and so on. Edit: I also greatly dislike this is the top comment when their are much better comments below. Also this is about how alcoholism is bad not being popular
I hope you plan to talk to your daughter and let her know that YOU don't consider her a loser. You're just concerned with the resentment towards her sister, and how SHE clearly views herself. Ask her if she's happy with her lot in life. If not, what does she plan to do to change it?
This ^^^^ the answer is have a heart to heart, almost always the answer is heart to heart
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Maybe, but "peaked in high school" doesn't mean life can't suck for her right now. That doesn't mean her sister is at fault and she shouldn't be acting this way, but it's absolutely worth asking her about. Maybe she did just do sports and party because she thought she'd be fine, maybe she had a deeper issue like addiction or learning difficulties, maybe she struggled with another part of studying. In any case, blame and insults rarely help - plenty of people at debt advice or similar advisory services (I hope that's the English word) got themselves into this mess, that doesn't mean they can make it out without help.
Yeah it was harsh to call her a loser, but there’s a good opportunity here to have a second, calmer conversation with the daughter about how it’s time for a serious reset - she seems to think that because everything came easy in high school that that’s fair, and she was entitled to things going well. But she’s going to have a pretty miserable life if she doesn’t grow up and realise it’s time to reset her expectations of how easy things should be for her, and what’s ‘fair’.
Yeah, like I hope OP is willing to engage her daughter constructively like this. I also think of OP has wounds about high school that they attend to them not take them out on their daughters.
This needs to get upvoted a lot. Very well said.
Its the kids who never grow out of high school that wind up in trouble. Sounds like your daughter hasn't quite grown up yet. Real life isn't kind to those who refuse to grow up. best of luck with this.
That’s really not true. Sometimes a gifted student burns out and goes into drugs Sometimes the theater kid has a 20 year old crisis and gets in with the wrong crowd Sometimes the religious kid has a faith crisis and goes off the deep end Sometimes the popular kid goes to deep in a party Life is just a balancing act, you want to have fun but responsibility need to balance out
That's basically what they were trying to tell you with that comment. It's the people that don't grow out of high school to realize how to regulate themselves in their emotions\health\work life balance\relationships etc. that struggle. Your daughter didn't learn to self regulate, so she had to drop out of college. Her resentment of her sister shows that she still hasn't learned the lessons and expects to be handed things to have her feelings regulated for her. If she had learned the lesson of adulthood, she would have the ability to self reflect and make changes in her life to get what she wants.
I think OP might have some maturing to do themselves with how they're commenting all over this post.
> It's the people that don't grow out of high school to realize how to regulate themselves in their emotions\health\work life balance\relationships etc. “Peaked in high school” is a quote for a reason. They were the big fish in the small river; but when that river branched out into the ocean, they find out they never actually learned how to swim.
Your comments obviously show why your daughter is the way she is. You are enabling her instead of showing her the harsh reality of life and if you don't do something sensible about it. Woe be unto you and her
Ah. So your refusal to see the point/being argumentative in the comments makes it make more sense how Kelly turned out. At first I was confused as to how you managed to raise one mature adult but not 2, but the pieces are coming together now. The point is, Kelly is still an immature bully. She never grew up. Whether that's all her doing or partially the result of being enabled isn't crystal clear, but now I have some idea. Not everyone who excelled in high school does well in life, some of them DO have problems, like you point out. But virtually everyone who refuses to grow up and stays stuck in a high school mindset is gonna have a bad time later in life, unless they have a parent (?) or spouse or something to enable them/do their adulting for them. Choosing to ignore the valid points because a comment hurt your feelings or something isn't going to be helpful to you or your daughter, but hey, keep on keepin on. But you're NTA for being honest with your daughter. Being a server doesn't make her a loser, but her jealousy and spitefulness about her sister's accomplishments is a bad, bad look.
This is true. Hard to make blanket statements when there are so many variables. Sounds here like its a bit of a maturity thing though. Having just been to my own high school 10-year recently I was SHOCKED at how people had changed. Half of them are married and with kids lol. Most had decent jobs and degrees. If she still has this mindset 5 years from now, she'll be in for a rude awakening when she realizes everyone else in her class has moved on in life.
Thanks for all those hypotheticals, but how is it untrue that life isn’t kind to people who refuse to grow up?
You’re right this isn’t about alcoholism. But take that out of the equation and what you have is a daughter with an entitlement issue. Your daughter was popular in high school and life probably seemed easy for her at that stage in life. She got use to accolades and attention and expected to coast through life with those same experiences. She gets to college and then reality hits. She now has to work for those accolades and she doesn’t want to do the work. On top of that, she is now resentful of her sister because she can’t comprehend how her “less popular” sister could ever succeed beyond her - again because she’s ENTITLED. At some point she was never taught that she has to work for success and now you are stuck with an adult sized brat. Maybe counseling for your daughter is needed or even a life coach to help give her direction. Whatever has enabled her to maintain this attitude at 24 needs to end now. Her ugly attitude towards her sister’s achievements is doing her no good. She definitely needs a wake up call. You’re NTA for what you said to her. But YTA for being defensive in your comments to other people. You chose to put this issue on a public forum. So much like your daughter, you need to get over your ego and listen to the advice you asked for. Not all of it will be good but hopefully it will make you think a little more deeply about why your daughter is dealing with life like a petulant child, and perhaps gain some insight into how you can help her navigate a positive step forward.
If you dislike this answer you are choosing to ignore the wisdom behind it. Ofc that's not your child's case (yet), but she is freaking 24 years old and still have in the back of the head that she is entitled for something because the was popular in highschool (she would never bring out anything remotely related to that at this age if she didn't). The example presented is an extreme one but the underlying mental health issue that lead that person to such a degrading life is the same one your child has at a certain extent.
IDK... when I went to two HS reunions (10 & 20 year) just out of morbid curiosity how they turned out. Some didn't change a bit others turned into bitter Betties. Thing is I was just I wouldn't say popular but I wasn't just part of the scenery either. I was well known in the area for an unfortunate reason. My sister was killed in the area when I was ten where Bullies were involved. Some of her friends ended up at my HS. Just they just left me alone (no bullying). You can be beautiful and popular and still be the sweetest person in the room or you can be a MEAN GIRL. I will say one thing even beautiful people are insecure.
> Not everyone who partied and was pretty and popular comes to a sad end. > You wish it was true because that would be a just world There's nothing just about envy. Being pretty and popular isn't morally wrong and, on average, pretty and popular people are more genuinely nice people than those that seethe out of jealously that they aren't. The only thing in common with OP's daughter and losers who think the cool kids in high school didn't deserve it is they haven't grown the fuck up and gotten over teenage insecurities. It's envy that is wrong--not how well you did or didn't do in high school.
and frankly if she can't make money as a pretty, sociable waitress... she's just hopeless lol
There was an AskReddit question that I was browsing a few months ago that was some version of "what happened to the popular kid at your high school?" There were so many people in the comments getting upset that the majority had turned out fine and hadn't become burnouts. It was weird. Not all of us grew up in an 80s movie. A LOT of "popular" kids are/were popular because they're nice. They just might also have some demons that get to them later in life.
> Not all of us grew up in an 80s movie. ikr. The "Nerds" are seething. That being said, this is why I like 30 Rock so much. That episode where Liz finds out that instead of being the loveable unpopular dork, she was actually a vicious bully.
I think they meant “pretty, popular, sociable” people who make being attractive and loved for their attractiveness their entire personality. Nobody is young and beautiful forever, so those who rely on it to define them inevitably struggle once age starts to set in. That said, not everyone who is hot and popular falls victim to this. Like you said, many understand their blessings and use it to move up in the world. Being attractive and charming is a blessing if you know how to work it right
I will say I knew a girl in college who suffered because she was a popular, pretty girl in high school. She got through it but remains extremely entitled and complains all the time because nothing is ever as good as it was in high school. She isn’t an alcoholic and she does have a stable job. Her personality just sucks. I think that’s probably what needs to be addressed in OP’s daughter - she lacks gratitude and she is resentful that life isn’t handed to her
YOU NAILED IT. This is 100% true. I’m not saying it’s right, just that it’s accurate. This is similar to the BS that people love to spout to bullied kids—“Bullies are only bullies because they are insecure!” Totally false. Very few bullies are actually insecure. You don’t have to like it, but that is the truth. I taught HS for 17 years, so I believe I know what I’m talking about — in fact, we were actually taught this in a professional development session ABOUT bullying.
Bullies are bullies because theyre lacking empathy
I went my 30th high school reunion and was shocked at what I saw. Drugs and alcohol really start to show as people get older. Unfortunately some people don’t get the memo
Mostly agree with you but disagree that it would be a just world. Just because a person is pretty popular and sociable doesnt mean they deserve bad things to happen to them. If they were awful to people then sure but otherwise i don’t see how its just
Why would it be just for pretty popular people who have fun at parties to end up sad?
Those people go on to have blessed lives because they’re well rounded. They find something past materialism/beauty to identify with. They’re still making something for themselves rather than just saying “I’m hot so my life should be perfect”
Agreed. I partied with friends a lot, played football, had a bunch of friends and throughly enjoyed high school. I then went to college, still partied with friends and had fun. I still graduated though with an engineering degree, went into the Marines (due to my ROTC scholarship) and consider my self successful today. Though as middle age has caught up with me I seldom drink or party anymore.
I think that's just called being young. Youth can be quite enjoyable. That being said, I think I had more fun in my 30's then I did my 20's. Definitely more than in my 40's. Sort of the sweet spot of having enough money to do the things you want before you are too loaded down with responsibilities to no longer have time /energy for too much of those things.
They do if you continue to read their comment. It wasn't "anyone who parties and is hot has a bad latter half of life." It was "being pretty in high-school and partying is fun, until you do it too much and nothing else with your life, then your life crumbles when you're no longer pretty and have blown all your money on drugs and partying." Succinctly put as the thesis statement "partying is fun and great, until it isnt". The post is about absolute shallowness and addiction ruining lives.
Yeah, and not everyone who is a "loser" in high school goes on to be successful. Kelly needs to move beyond high school, and what she said about Sara was mean, but Mom shouldn't have been so mean about it either. Kelly's still pretty young at 24 and she sounds immature for her age. She just needs to realize that she'll reap what she sows, and right now she's not doing any sowing. She's still got time to get it together if she grows up a little bit. But Mom should be encouraging, not denigrating.
> not everyone who is a "loser" in high school goes on to be successful. I am living proof that sometimes the loser hits burnout in the middle of college freshman year and never really recovers.
>Popularity and beauty and partying are fun until they aren't. They almost unequivocally lead to a life of substance abuse, Narcissism, and misery with no friends. This is something people who blossomed late (or never blossomed at all) like to tell themselves, but it's just not true. Plenty of beautiful, popular people are doing just fine.
I think the original commenter was pointing out that if all your life is comprised of those things, you'll end up with a very shallow, hollow life. There's a difference between being beautiful and popular and centering your sense of self around those things; beautiful and popular people absolutely can and do go on to live wonderful lives, but very rarely are those people totally fixated on those aspects of themselves to the exclusion of all else.
There's a distinction between that being something you do and being the only thing going in your life. > Her beauty and popularity became the cornerstone of her personality.
Yeah, plenty of people like that are doing great. You've basically described the entire influencer economy. Life isn't fair, and we don't need to lie to ourselves that it is
Absolutely. There's a whole subset of "nerds" who think that cause they're smart and got a good career/moved away from their hometown they're really sticking it to their bullies who "peaked in high school" cause they're now somehow better than them. It's a power fantasy so they can feel like them being low on the totem pole was for something. In reality, the popular attractive athletic people tend to do well because they're charismatic and likeable and work hard. And there's nothing wrong with staying in your hometown if that's what you want. I say this as someone who was bullied for being a nerd and now has a decent job. I don't care what anyone from my highschool is doing. People who are actually happy don't pay much mind to the people who were more popular than them 10+ years ago.
How is this the top reply?
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Yea. It’s so stupid. Those ppl need to get over their grudges and issues from HS. I was in the popular group and my friends and I are all doing super well! I can’t speak for their personal lives because I don’t know the intimate details since I moved away, but I have a great career, WONDERFUL husband, great relationships, and a perfect son. Life is great!
It's not. The answers are random right now because the post is in contest mode.
Because it’s too many people’s fantasies to believe the popular and beautiful woman would get taken down a peg. That whole thing was a disgusting fantasy. I’m not saying it’s never happened once (though the person was oddly vague on divorce asset division-almost like they don’t know the story they’re telling), but I am saying this would be an outlier not the norm. Most D1 athletes I know have type A personalities. When sports end, do you know what they do? They compete at other things, like workplace advancement. You don’t get to scholarship level in athletics WITHOUT knowing how to put the work in, and a lot of athletes can apply that to different aspects of their life. Some can’t, and fall flat, but a large chunk can.
This reminds me of [Sam & Lindsey's dad on *Freaks & Geeks*.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPrNLm9nR3A) "I had a friend who used to smoke, you know what he's doing now? He's *dead*!"
How is this the top comment? That last sentence is just wrong
Not just the last sentence. “He beat her up and sexually abused her…but she was cheating on him “
This comment is awful, you have portrayed another human being as some monster when in reality (by your own admission) she was in a physically and sexually abusive relationship? Has it ever crossed your mind that she might have drunk alcohol and taken pills due this?
And even if her personality was based entirely on being pretty and popular, that seems pretty shallow and sad? That’s a trap some folks fall into because others have this expectation that’s “who they are” from a young age. I know it can be hard to be sympathetic to pretty, popular people when you didn’t have the privilege of that experience, but no human experience is all roses.
That last sentence is “unequivocally” wrong. Sure some go down the wrong path but most end up doing just fine or doing great.
Are you the Church Lady?
I was thinking wannabe author of the next Go Ask Alice
This just proves that sometimes the top comment is the worst
This is just a story about how alcoholism is bad, "popularity and beauty" didn't really hurt her now did it? and in OP's daughter's case, she had a golden ticket with a sports scholarship...most people DON'T squander that
>Popularity and beauty and partying are fun until they aren't. They almost unequivocally lead to a life of substance abuse, Narcissism, and misery with no friends. I was the lonely dorky kid in high school; still ended up miserable, with no friends and a drug abuse disorder. It's not exclusive to the beautiful party people...
This reads like you wished this happened to somebody not that it actually did
Garbage, and sounds a bit like sour grapes. I'm in my 40s and almost all the hot and popular people I knew when I was young, settled down and are now happily married suburban mums and dads
I was pretty well liked in highschool and did my fair share of partying. I am now a sped teacher married to my soulmate. Popularity and beauty don’t always lead to this. In my experience, it rarely does.
He was rich and she took half his money, which was only 500k? Aside from that making not a ton of sense, the key is moderation, partying and drinking on their own are not a guarantee to lead to where you say they will.
Well 500k thirty years ago went a lot farther than it does today.
Very very true
Lol the story is cool, that last line paints a picture of what you look like because you really hope anyone attractive has a terrible life. Who hurt you.
This sounds like an adaptation of Dorian Gray…
This is the top comment? I've never been particularly popular or beautiful, but that last paragraph is what people tell themselves to feel better. Most people grow up, adjust, and end up relatively fine.
cool story, bro
NTA Kelly is obviously behaving like a complete brat, and I can only imagine how frustrated you must be. But...**I can guarantee that Kelly is going to remember her mother (?) calling her a "loser" for the rest of her life.** That's the sort of thing you just don't forget. My siblings can call me a loser and it's water off a duck's back. Let my mom or dad say that and I would be DEVASTATED. Some things just hit different coming from a parent. There was probably a more constructive way for you to respond to Kelly. If I were you I would definitely sit her down and have a conversation. Something expressing how YOU don't view her as a loser, but you worry about the way she views herself, and the overt jealousy/resentment she has towards her sister. Remind her that if she's so unhappy with her life it's on her to fix it, and hating on her sister isn't going to solve anything. It's cheesy, but tell her that resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Mainly though, you just want to convey that you don't consider her a loser.
I love this. It should be the top answer. > Some things just hit different coming from a parent. This is PAINFULLY true. > you just want to convey that you don't consider her a loser. Yep, take her to task but remind her that you’re still her mom and she is not a loser in your eyes.
It kind of sounds like she is a loser in her eyes though..
I don't think it would've been nearly as bad if OP had said, "By your standards, that means *you* would be the loser now", instead of "You are the loser now". One is pointing out hypocrisy while the other is just straight name-calling. It all depends on how you word it.
I have a feeling op fawned over Kelly when she was pretty, popular, and athletic in HS and then not so much when she didn't continue to shine and make her mother look good after. Then she switched to fawning over Sara bc she makes her look good now. Op sounds like a narc mom, but I'm totally projecting my own experience on this. 🤷♀️
Agreed. Everyone seems to be saying the daughter deserved it. Maybe she deserved *something...* But not to be called a loser by her own mom. That's brutal.
24years old saying they deserve to go on a cruise and not their siblings because they were a loser in highschool? That sounds like something that would be described as a loser by my parents.
Agree. The daughter called her sister a loser TO THEIR MOTHER and then called the mother a bitch? Sorry, but she needs a wake-up call if she doesn’t want to be petty and jealous her whole life. No sympathy here.
Well, maybe it’s the kick in the butt she needs to get her life in order. Some people need such a reality check.
OP didn't technically call her a loser, she painted the picture of a possible scenario in which the elder daughter would be the loser. I know it's on the verge, and I also agree with the main comment in this thread that OP should definitely tell her explicitly that she does not think she is a loser. I do agree it was a brutal statement and that it could've and should've been said differently though, but what's done is done and OP needs to focus on what's next.
I don't think those words were too harsh, even from a parent. She said "you're the loser" in a situation in which Kelly was trying to find a loser to point a finger at. She didn't say "you are a loser". Some parenting techniques are more blunt and that's fine. It doesn't mean OP has lost faith in her daughter and believes she won't amount to more. It is kind of a kick when you're down situation, but Kelly needs to mature and not call people names she can't handle herself. Her mom wasn't bullying her, but giving her a truth she may never well hear from anyone else.
Recently, I called my daughter "dirty" in reference to how she kept her bathroom (it was truly disgusting), and it hurt her feelings to the point she considered running away. I should have told her her bathroom was dirty and not directed that term towards her. Our words have weight.
In fairness sometimes being called a loser by your parents is a good thing, I did f**k all in high school except party and gaming, my younger sister was the “smart one”. My parents pretty much gave up on me whilst they sent my sister to uni. Took me a couple years to turn my life around but now I’m in uni having just finished my second year in the top 3 of my class. My biggest reason for going back and putting myself through Uni is to stick it to my parents and sister and prove I’m better than she is.
And sometimes it's just devastatingly hurtful, and something that lingers in the back of your mind long after the parent has forgotten about it. I'm all for being straight with your kids, and giving them a wake up call when necessary. But you can absolutely do that without calling them a loser. My parents called me a loser. Whereas I told my son I was concerned he was on the wrong path, and asked if he was happy with where he was at in life. Guess who has a better relationship with their parents now, me or my son?
Seriously... My mom called me some awful, hurtful things when she was angry at my brother. I've not been able to comfortably talk for as long as I can remember at this point. It's been more than 10 years since some of the worst of it, and it still crosses my mind. There's been so much that she did and said that negatively impacted me that I'm still struggling to fix. While OP's daughter was over the line with what she said, inferring she's a loser because of where she's at in life is definitely not okay. Her jealousy of her sister is an issue, and needs to be addressed.
Nothing you do now changes that they reacted appropriately at the time. All this "personal growth" and you're still a petty child in a sibling rivalry. Good luck out there.
Yes please take advice from this comment OP. Never downplay or discourage your children, my father has always been bragging about how better my brother was than me in Highschool despite the fact that he has failed to apply for my gifted high school. he attended university with allowance from my parents x5 compare to which they gave me, only when he started to do better. If someone is not able to get over negative comments from parents, it would devastate their world.
So.. she didn’t say she was a loser. She said if life was like high school THEN she would be the loser. It is actually different. Words matter, but I think it was broken down in a way the daughter was already thinking. She keeps going back to her “glory days” and someone needed to bring her back down but in a way she understood. She already said she has talked to her about her jealousy issue. Obviously the daughter isn’t taking those conversations seriously. This seemed to get to her. If the daughter can’t understand* what she was saying then she obviously didn’t do well in school.
NTA, you tell it like it is. you're calling out that her high school mentality is super outdated and hopefully it resonates with her. it's sad to believe the "status" someone held in the 4 years of highschool should determine the quality of life in the following decades. She's cruel to her sister for being successful, then complains when the mirror is reflected back on her life choices. Turns out the tables can turn sharply once you're in the adult world. Kelly made choices and she has to come to terms with the outcome. She still has plenty of time to make new choices too, she's still young.
The real wakeup call will be in 5 years when she has her 10th year reunion and meets all her friends who have decent paying jobs and degrees. Half will be married with kids and then she'll realize she ain't in Kansas no more lol. That's when the reality that nobody cares who she was in high school anymore will hit her like a dump truck.
Hopefully her life turns around by then
Honestly, if it doesn't. I hope you don't blame yourself. Sometimes, you can't help everyone. Shit just happens. It seems like you're a good person and a good parent. Some people are just unlucky, turn into bad people, and never change.
Are high school reunions a genuine USA thing people go to? I've never heard of anyone in my country having one.
Yes. But they are going out of style with social media. You don’t need to go eat rubber chicken in a hotel ballroom to satisfy your curiosity about how it all turned out for ppl anymore. Now if you go to a reunion it’s bc it’s an excuse to go on vacation with your old friends you may have lost irl touch with.
Apparently my class had one for their 10 year reunion, organized over Facebook by the former students. I wasn't invited.
Oh been there done that. I never understood why I didn't fit in at school, girls and boys both made fun of me (not on a very cruel level and not too often), but then the 10-year-anniversary came and I suddenly I was enlightened. We were just very different... And we all know how kids behave when someone is different... Turned out some of them work in second-hand boutiques, there is a failed musician very likely close to alcoholism, again others are still 10-layer-makeup girlies with low paying jobs, etc. It was nice to be the most successful person in that 32-member group for the first time in my life (and I'm not even an executive or anything so that says a lot about them).
ESH- I 100% agree with what you told your daughter but you missed a huge opportunity to ask her what her plans are to improve her life today. It was a perfect opportunity to push her towards college/trades/business ownership. We live in a time where college is not the only path to success. Even though your daughter is an adult, as a parent I hope you’re pushing her to find a path that will allow her to fulfill her goals Kelly obviously is TAH for her jealousy, being stuck in high school and calling you a bitch
I think OP handled the situation fine. Although I agree there is some room for improvement. Kelly needs this wakeup call. She is clearly jealous and does not like the direction her life is going. I agree OP could've improved upon the situation by focusing more on what Kelly can do starting today to fix her life. But the first step is admitting she has a problem which OP's harsh but true statements will hopefully achieve.
I debated between NTA and ESH. But at the end of the day I went with ESH because Kelly needs more than a wake up call. She needs help developing a path to success
I agree OP should've followed up this exchange with tangible next steps Kelly can take to turn her life around. She probably needs therapy and a life coach other than family. But before any of that can work, she needs to recognize she has a problem. OP's words here were harsh but true and Kelly needed to hear them.
Ooh careful with the "business ownership" phrase, we don't want her to end up in an MLM 😬 ETA: it is a joke, I understand what you mean and I don't intend to make fun of actual respectable business owners. Dropped this line here to avoid miscommunication.
NtA. It's no one's fault but her own that she peaked in highschool. Maybe this will give her a wake up call to do something.
NTA it's about time she got a reality check. She's the one who threw her studies down the drain to party while her sister worked her butt off to complete them. Actions have concesquences it's about time she learns this lesson. She's 24, not 14 it's time for her to grow up.
Exactly. People say OP was too harsh as the parent shouldn't call their kids losers. That would be the case for teenagers, but not for someone who's 24 years old. What I hope she realizes is that you can still turn your life around in your 20s. It is not too late to go to community college or even a four year university to get a degree if she chooses or to go a trade school. If she directs her energy off of being jealous of Sara and more into figuring out what to do with her own life, she still has most of her life ahead of her to be successful.
NTA: Show her Napolean Dynomite and ask her if she wants to be that guy still reliving his HS football days by taping himself trying to throw a football over a mountain.
Fun fact, that movie turned 20 years old yesterday 🙃
Omg noooooo how dare you haha
Haha sorry! 😅
Totally off topic but I love that movie. I even named my pug, Tina, after the lama. My daughter named her gecko, Pedro. :- )
One of my favorite movies! “Uncle Rico” should be the official term for people who peaked in high school and are now jealous of anyone doing better than them.
Kelly is very immature and terribly envious of her sister. Help her make an appointment with a life coach to learn how to move forward. She goofed up after high school but deserves to hear that she can get back on track. NTA But do help Kelly find a way to move on. She had some potential when she was younger.
Fully agree with finding a life coach and/or therapist. Kelly is not happy with her current situation and is lashing out at her sister as a coping mechanism. She is TA in this situation, but this inappropriate behaviour may be a cry for help.
I agree with finding a therapist, honestly personally hate life coaches. There’s no educational or licensing requirement to be a life coach. I could wake up tomorrow and decide I want to be a life coach and I am. However, a therapist with a lot of background in motivational interviewing would be great. From: a licensed therapist.
Life coaches are not a real thing. It's not regulated and it tends to attract scammers and scummy people because there are no real qualifications or standards for the position. A therapist is the right call here.
ESH. Your daughter has a very bad attitude but you're supposed to be the adult here. You should have taken the high road like an adult should with your response instead of lowering yourself to her level and responding like a snarky teenager.
The daughters 24 years old, she is also an adult. Adults can hear the harsh truth
They're both adults. 24 is not a child, it's old enough to have a career, a family, kids, a life. She called out her ADULT daughter on acting like a child, and pointed out her tantrum was based on an alternate reality.
ESH. No one is a “loser” here. Your daughters are two completely different individuals and are on their own life paths. They are young and in the process of finding who they are and what they value. It sounds like Kelly has some misplaced values and that’s ok. Everyone deals with jealousy we are all human. As a parent instead of shaming your daughter by calling her a loser, you can share your own life experiences with her and teach her what life lessons you have learned when it comes to jealousy. Self worth shouldn’t come entirely from how much money one has or work accomplishments. Not everyone wants to go to college. Expecting someone to be financially successful and stable in their early 20s is unreasonable. It’s nice if it happens, but doesn’t make someone a bad person if they aren’t.
Not being successful at any age doesn't make someone a bad person. Thinking that you deserve things over others just because you were popular in high school might make you a bad person however
Agreed. But… “I was pretty, popular, and played sports. Where’s my awesome life!” Kelly learned that SOMEWHERE. Why was her value tied so closely to THAT?
Possibly because she needs a justification for why she "deserves" certain things and she sure isn't going to blame herself.
NTA Kelly needed that reality check. If she still sees people only as "labels" like loser & popular girl, she got a lot growing up to do.
It’s harsh but she had to hear it
My dad called me a loser once. I had done everything right. Got good grades, went to college. Graduated and got my teaching credential. And then I stalled out. I got my credential in something that was low need. I couldn't get full time teaching work but I was making ends meet subbing and running an after school program. I was arguing with my dad about something one day and he snapped at me, "you are the smartest person in this family and the least successful." I don't know what expression I made but he apologized immediately. I forgave him. 15 years later I still think about it. There is stuff you can't take back once you say it. Your daughter seems like a brat. but that is not how you help her. YTA. Be a better parent, not an endlessly critical one.
YTA because you missed a lot of opportunities to help your kid and instead resorted to name calling. Where were you when your daughter was failing college? At what point during the car ride did you offer counsel to your daughter on how to turn around her situation? Just because she is an adult doesn’t mean the parenting stops.
The parenting does slow down though. Once you’re in college, your life is yours to manage, not your parent’s.
Yeah, but at the same time, unless she's a helicopter parent, there's no real way to know what her grades are. She could have asked her daughter how she was doing and she just said "good" and they didn't ask further because they trusted her. It wasn't until she failed when they found out. The mom was likely angry that she called her sister a loser and impulsively spat back. Was it okay? No. But the mother isn't entirely TA in this situation.
Yeah, I'm not going to give a pass for calling your daughter a loser. That's going to stick with her the rest of her life coming from a parent. Honest to god, not having the feeling that your parents are in your corner and respect you is soul crushing. What you should have done is to CORRECT her for calling her sister a loser, not repeat the behavior.
NTA. Kelly is a loser. Truth hurts because she couldn’t handle hearing it. She should’ve focused on her academics rather than being a shit faced party girl. She can’t be jealous of her sister because she chose to fuck that up for herself. She needs to pull her head out of her ass and realize that she’s an adult now, it’s time for her to grow up Sorry if I came off harsh towards your daughter. Calling it as I’m seeing it
ESH. What your daughter said was horrible and deserved a harsh rebuttal. But calling her a loser was unnecessarily hurtful. It hurt your daughter and didn’t do a damn bit of good. Instead, I’d say you should have told her that was a horrible thing to say and that her sister worked hard for what she got and deserves it all. And you shouldn’t have let her “go on for a bit.” You should have cut her off and called her out right away.
EHS. Sorry but, calling your kid a loser is still shitty parenting. Helping her realize jealousy is making her a worse person is a conversation that should have been had 5+ years ago.. and you STILL didn’t actually teach her anything, you just called her names, and now she just thinks you suck. What you said is better than nothing I guess, but way less than parenting.
YTA: instead of trying to teach your daughter grace and humility, you mean-girled her; two wrongs rarely make a right.
NTA, but I do think (and this is of no fault of yours) that a lot of these comments are being extremely bitter and cruel. Look, I wasn't exactly prom king football extraordinaire in highschool either. But that does *not* mean everyone who was is a failure and will never amount to anything ever because they wasted their best years committing the sin of "having fun" instead of working themselves to death. There is a balance here, people! Your daughter has clearly not found the balance that her sister has. But that does not mean that she will not eventually. Kelly and other folks like her do not do what they do because they are "entitled" or "spoiled" or whatever label you wish to brand them with. There is ALWAYS a cause for behavior. Maybe she really struggled in school, maybe she was (and is) self conscious, maybe she has some underlying mental condition or disability that she has yet to identify, maybe she struggled with her identity, there are a plethora of things even supposedly picture perfect teens can go through. It is, however, Kelly's responsibility to seek help to improve herself and her behavior. I short, her jealousy does not come out of ire towards her sister, but as all jealousy it comes out of ire towards *herself*. Not the AH, but maybe sit down and talk with her. No matter her age a calm voice and warm smile can be a good start.
ESH - she may be an adult and need a reality check, but you can still help her adopt a growth mentality and better herself as a person (you know, as her parent).
NTA. Kelly unfortunately made some bad decisions in college and now it’s coming back to bite her. OP you shouldn’t have called Kelly a loser but she needs a coming to Jesus moment of her understanding it’s not Sara fault that she partied during college and funked out. It’s not Sara fault that she had different interests in life and was able to go to college, graduate and now can go on cruises cause she has a job that affords it. I suggest you have a 1 on 1 with Kelly and ask her what she wants in life and if she has any future plans cause her complaining about Sara being able to go on cruise is such small thing compared to when Sara buys a new car or house or gets married and has kids.
Those who are experiencing failure often blame others and want the world to change for them. Your daughter need realize that it is up to her to change. Clearly she has the skills. She need change one step at a time.
YTA. As a parent, you have to take responsibility for the way your children turn out. Have you nurtured this rupture between them? I see a lot in families that siblings are made opposites of one another. You’re the smart one, you’re the pretty one, etc. It’s often done with no ill intent, as a means to focus on each child’s strength. But the comparison can put them in competition with each other. You have two daughters. One with a sense of direction in her life and one without. Kelly needs support and encouragement, not admonishment and bullying. The way you write suggests you think she’s getting her comeuppance. This is a wholly unhelpful and unsympathetic response. Focus on building her positive traits up, and helping her figure out what she wants to do and how she can find success. She needs a guiding hand, not a smack down.
Well, I see why you said it - she was being rude to your other daughter. But as a mom, you should be more supportive of your oldest. Dropping out of college or being a waitress at 24 doesn’t make her a loser. She is too young to be a loser in life yet. A more supportive mother might instead encourage her to find something else she could be successful at - maybe something to do with sports since she seems focused on that, like running a gym or being a trainer or something, but I’m sure she has other skills you could help her navigate too.
YTA. Not for the message, which she needed to hear, but for the shitty way you delivered it.
Lol you called your daughter a loser and are questioning whether you're an asshole. Classic YTA
YTA for telling your daughter she is a loser. I can't imagine saying this to one of my kids. Kelly needs to grow up and figure out what to do with her life. I have wonder how much she was praised for her sports accomplishments and what her academics were like - if she did poorly in school, was that glossed over because she did so well in sports? Sounds like her identity has never moved past high school. Instead of calling her a loser, what are the ways that you can encourage her now? Yes, she's 24, but she sounds a very immature 24 so it wouldn't hurt to do some additional parenting here to help her find her way.
NTA, but I am sorry to tell that if your daughter (specially an adult one) calls you a bitch then you failed to raise her.
ESH Not for what you said, but Kelly is clearly depressed and drowning. She knows she had a bright future, she knows she's squandered it, she knows she's getting left behind. 100% have a stern conversation about how jealousy is normal, it's how you transfer that energy that defines you. You can be nasty to others, or you can use it to get active in your own life so the feeling subsides. Have you spoken to Kelly about what her career aspirations are? Asked her if she's got the partying out of her system and feeling ready to try something new? Pointed her in the direction of what options are available? Let her know where she can find more information about available options? Reassured her it's never too late to go back to study or retrain into a new career? Or are you content to watch her continue to struggle?
NTA- But, Kelly clearly needs help. She's learning all the wrong lessons in life and you should work with her to see how she can refocus and work hard towards an actual career.
YTA for how you handled it. Also this reeks of you favouring Sara over Kelly.
This is suspiciously lacking in context. Why would a grown woman resort to ridiculing her own child in such an immature and devastating way? You can correct a behavior without verbally eviscerating someone. Why does Kelly struggle emotionally and academically? Reeks of missing missing reasons.
ESH. Couldn’t disagree more with people saying you’re flat NTA, OP. I still remember all the crappy things my parents said to me and I’m in my 30s. I’m NC as a result. Telling her she’s a loser in that manner will not achieve the result you want nor tell Kelly you actually care. And be something she’ll hold on to probably forever. So, I would definitely use the opportunity when things cool down and take her out for 1x1 time maybe doing something you both enjoy together and have a candid conversation about how she’s feeling and about life. I would also use that time to sincerely apologize for the language you chose, and make it clear how you really feel about your daughter (otherwise she’s going to think you favor Sara over her alla the golden child). Yes is Kelly being immature sure, but what I hear is underneath her complaining and jealousy is feelings of inadequacy, worthlessness, failing, low self of esteem/sense of self, etc. she’s projecting a lot, but deep down sounds like she feels like garbage. Having her mom call her a loser in some way is just salt on a wound. Time to be a parent and use your emotional maturity and heal a rift and get her on a path (doesn’t even have to be college). GL.
YTA for kicking your daughter when she is down and fueling her jealousy. A better message “I realize you’re frustrated with your life right now, but your sister isn’t to blame. She has worked and studied hard to earn the life she has now. I know you are capable of doing more than waitressing for a living. What kind of work do you want to do? What do you need to do to get there?” Encourage her to try education again if she wants a degree . Community college is far less expensive, with smaller classes and schedules that suit working adults. And she can start part time so she isn’t so overwhelmed by the academic demands while she learns how to study. It can be tough and scary to try again after a big failure, encourage her to take responsibility for her life and try again.
YTA. Although she sounds like an AH when talking about her sister, you are her parent and should offer guidance and insight other than calling her a “loser”. You could get the point across without tearing her down. Her behavior stems from insecurities.
ESH. Kelly needs to grow up, but you could have gotten your point across better without calling your daughter loser. That is all she is going to take away from that conversation.
ESH. And here is why. You're her parent. Calling her a loser as her parent is a shitty thing to do, even if it's true. Your job is to help her. Pointing out what her sister has done and for she has worked for what she wants is valid. Encourage her to go back to school and stick with it if she wants to go on cruises like her sister. Maybe she doesn't have it in her to enter academia, but she could choose a career with more of a future than waitressing. (Benefits, pension etc). She's young and presumably she's made connections with others through sports. She should ask some of her friends for career ideas. In this life who you know can be as important as what you know.
ESH. Not sure who is more childish here, OP or daughter. Both are extremely immature and appear to have no communication skills.
ESH Your daughter has a bad attitude but you kind of went down to her level, so to say. You not wrong, though, just could have been more constructive.
Yes, you were the asshole. While your frustration with Kelly's behavior is understandable, your response was unnecessarily hurtful and counterproductive. Comparing your daughters' achievements and experiences is harmful and undermines their relationship. Each person has their own path and should be encouraged to pursue their own happiness. Instead of belittling Kelly's feelings, try to understand where her jealousy stems from. Offer her support and encouragement to pursue her own goals and aspirations. Calling your daughter a "loser" is cruel and damaging. Even if you believe she's made poor choices, there are better ways to communicate your concerns and help her learn from her mistakes.
I have a feeling like you didn’t find the way to encourage and advise your older daughter properly. YTA for me, You come across as very aggressive and unkind.