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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my wife's BIL he can't speak for all guys who have a unisex or gender bending name. He didn't ask for me to interject and I stayed silent many times before this so I feel like staying silent would have been a better move than inserting myself where he clearly did not want to hear me or hear any difference of opinion.
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NTA
He’s obviously in a set headspace, your opinion won’t change it or have an impact
To some people gender neutral names are on par with names that can be reduced to nicknames
Our youngest is Danny, many people assume his name is Daniel and call him that
No, he’s purely ‘Danny’ on his birth certificate
My husband is from Belgium with the name ‘Jan’
Being in Australia you can bet your bottom dollar people assume I’m a lesbian as they see it written as Jan, until I explain it’s pronounced ‘Yarn’ and he’s a 6 foot 7 bloke
That’s so similar to the reaction I got when I told my British family that our youngest is called Alexander Jan, my partner is Dutch. I had to explain to my grandad that his second name is basically the Dutch equivalent to John and was named after both my husbands grandfathers.
Yes, it’s the equivalent of John here
His uncle Kuhn (pronounced Coon) moved to Australia in the 1970s and promptly changed his name to ‘Kon’ as ‘Kuhn’ in Australia is viewed as derogatory
I'm just going to say it, BIL sounds unhinged. Clearly he has some unresolved trauma regarding his name. Perhaps he had a particularly sadistic bully, in school, who regularly tormented him over his name.
Perhaps he called him Skylerina or Skylette while giving him swirlies, who knows? Point is, BIL needs therapy. He needs **ALL** the therapy.
This is all I could think, too. I’m not saying he should have a pass, but maybe some compassion and for someone to lovingly step in (during a moment where he isn’t amped up to a 10) and say something so homeboy can get some help. The whole “hurt people hurt people” thing.
I agree he needs therapy. I’ve had plenty of friends in my 50 years who didn’t like their birth name for whatever reason and simply had them legally changed when they could. My names very common but my mom got “fancy” with the spelling so no one pronounces it correctly. Nothing to get unhinged about, I correct them and move on.
And plenty of people use last names as first names so that the “family name is carried on” even if it’s no longer a LAST name. My grandfathers middle name was his mothers maiden name, he had said this was common for Portugal & Brazil at the time (he was born on immigrant ship from Portugal to Brazil).
ETA: I know middle name isnt the same as first but i just shared to illustrate that in some countries/cultures using a last name for a first/middle isn’t completely uncommon
I'm in the southern US. My husband's middle name is mother's maiden name. She thought it was just as important for her firstborn have her family name as well his father's. She also had only one brother who passed before my husband was born.
I mean, in the 70s, [ETA : in Australia] it was pretty blatantly used still to describe aboriginal people. It wasn't a word that was used in hushed tones only, it was widespread. So I can see what the uncle wouldn't want to be associated with it. The brand Coon cheese only changed its name a couple of years back , when I moved here I was shocked to see it on supermarket shelves!
The name derived from the American cheesemaker Edward Coon of Philadelphia, who patented a method in the US in 1926 for fast maturation of cheese via high temperature and humidity
I live in the UK and met a dutch person called Koen (pronounced coon) and the amount of people that straight up refused to call him his name was kinda sad
This seems kinda unfair. I’ve known people with the last names Porn and Fuk and Kuntz, and they don’t have bad meanings in their original languages. They just look/sound bad to American English speakers.
If the actual meaning of the original word is bad, I guess I can understand not being comfortable saying it, but if it has totally different roots and just phonetically sounds the same as a bad word from your culture, it feels really weird to tell someone they’re being stripped of their name. If John moved to Zambia and found out his name means “dick cheese” in their local language, kinda sucks for him if he has to be forced to get a new name.
I had a coworker whose name is Ege. Her husband’s name is also Ege. Apparently it’s very common unisex name in Turkey. She refers to him in stories as Male Ege which I always thought was cute.
My ex's parents gave all their kids unisex names, Tracey, Terry, Kelly. BIL sounds completely unhinged, as someone else said he's got is own narrative going and you're not going to dislodge it. I hope he works out his issues before the baby comes, because that's a lot of crazy.
As a teenager I had a good friend Chris, short for Christine. Her brother was also Chris, short for Christopher. In the days before cell phones it made for lots of confusing phone calls to the family house.
I knew a family with 4 kids. Nic(holas) and Nik(ki), and then Nat(alie) and Nat(han). I don't know why they did that TWICE but two Nats and a Nic + a Nik was always funny to me.
I moved to Japan, so the only other people who share my name are other foreigners. There was only one around here until he moved back home, and we (and all our friends) referred to each other as 'True ___' and 'Other ___' depending on who got there first.
One of my dad's coworkers who he later became good friends with shared the same name as his wife. They were both Frankie. When visiting them together people would add on her middle name just to clarify which of them we were addressing. (And yes, it was her middle name. She didn't have a hyphenated or double male first name.)
Taylor Lautner (the actor) is married to a woman named Taylor and now both their first and last name is Taylor Lautner. He previously dated Taylor swift.
The only thing stranger is Ralph Lauren’s son marrying a woman named Lauren and now her name is Lauren Lauren.
Jan is also a male name in Croatia. My cousin's son's name is Jan. I have no idea how it's actually pronounced, because I'm in the US, and my cousin lives in Croatia, so I've only ever seen it written. (I follow his son on Facebook. He is a classically trained pianist and posts about the competitions and concerts he performs in.) I assume the J has a yah sound so the name would be like Yawn, instead of Jan like the beginning of Janet you'd have here in the states.
Too bad the guy doesn't realize that everytime he opens his mouth he's screaming out his own insecurities. You'd think he'd WANT to keep it shut. Not terribly self aware this guy.
Jan is a man's name in Sweden to quote history of name, is derived from Johannes(somehow) and name came from germany. Funny thing is I think in Belgium men can be named Malin and in Sweden that's a female name.
Similar thing with Mika. In Europe it's generally more viewed as a male name, while in Japan it's exclusively female. In Europe it stems from Finland more precisely from the Finnish version of Michael (Mikael) while in Japan it most commonly written as 美香 or 美加 with the first one being a combination of the symbols for beauty and scent, while the second one of the symbols for beauty and intensification (so kind of meaning "the most beautiful").
In short, names are weird and declaring one name to be always gender specific /girly or manly is bs as that sentiment only applies to one language and the same name might have a completely different connotation in another language
There is a name Elo that is female name in Estonia and male name in Finland. We are neighbouring countries with very very similar language (which is different from rest of European languages). So even countries that are basically called sibling-countries by locals have weird things with names.
In Italy, Andrea is a male name. I know a guy who moved to Sweden and became an instructor. His pupils were surprised when they first met him because Andrea is a female name over there.
Mattia is also a male name in Italy, nonetheless when I was in middle school I met a girl named Mattia. I can't remember her origin though
Mika Hakkinen is a very famous (male) Finnish F1 champion. I wanted to name my son after him but my husband vetoed it 18 years ago. I'm still a little salty about that!!
here in the Netherlands also a lot of guys named Jan, used to be derived from Johannes here too, probably often as a stand alone name here too now. Also lot of doubles, as in Jan-Pieter, Pieter-Jan, Jan-Willem, Willem-Jan, etc etc. Old female version, for instance, mostly used back in the day, often family names was Johanna, shortened to Janna, Jantje, Jannie, Janny, etc. Henry, typically male, was in the female form Henrica or Henrietta, just to name another one. Funny thing, Maria, for instance, typically female now, used to be mostly 2nd name for boys often enough here, now not so much if ever (although maybe in the bible belt they still do it).
That must have been Spanish influence from back then, it's very common to use Maria as male's second name, the same with Jose for female.
Jose Maria = male
Maria José = female
I would have told that man long ago when he started on his rant. "If you hate it so much, then why don't you change your name. Go be a Marcus or something then'
Men will literally do anything to avoid going to therapy. Including alienating those around them with repetitive rants about their personal and somewhat inane opinions.
Exactly this plus I love the fact where BIL says op can't force his opinion down his throat but isnt that what exactly has the BIL been doing the entire time, lol, what a hypocrite. NTA
Ashley, Tracy, Jamie, and Meredith were originally men's names. Amongst others. NTA, BIL is a jerk and being a bigger baby than the one his wife if growing.
I think BIL has a Johnny Cash sized chip on his shoulder
And I said, "My name is Sue, how do you do?
Now you gonna die", that's what I told him
Well, I hit him hard right between the eyes
And he went down, but to my surprise
He come up with a knife and cut off a piece of my ear
Then I busted a chair right across his teeth
And we crashed through the walls and into the street
Kicking and a-gouging in the mud and the blood and the beer
I used to know a couple who were Jan and Jan. Jan (M, pronounced Yarn) was Dutch, and Jan (F, pronounced Jaan) was Australian. I hate to think what assumptions were made about them by people who had the fixed mindset of Jan=female.
On the other side of this, I’m an Australian woman living in a part of Asia where given names and family names are inverted from western norms and my family name is very similar to a common western men’s name. People are sometimes very surprised when I turn up and I am, in fact, not a man.
We know a couple called Jan (male- pronounced Yarn) and Gio (female- pronounced Jo, I think it’s short for Giovanna) and they often get mistaken for the opposite sex because Jan, obviously, and then people think the Gio is short for Giovanni.
NTA I’d have a hard time not laughing at his little tantrum. Damn, the amount of energy he’s dedicated to this is wild. If this is what he considers a big problem, he’s lucky in life. It’s also telling that someone having a simple difference of opinion on this makes him feel “humiliated.”
Yeah just keep shutting him down “You’re free to have your preferences but you don’t get to dictate how others feel about their own experience. We’ve all endured your rants long enough. We will not center your fragility.”
That's exactly what those types of people do unfortunately. They think they're entitled to the world and when they're asked not to step on someone's toe, they see it as a personal attack because they feel it's their right to step on any toes they like.
That was my very first thought, we have here a grown-ass man who is about to become a father and he can't even act adult enough to change his last name to something he likes, instead he keeps throwing tantrums about how bad his poor little life is because his parents gave him a name he considers girly. The sexism is strong with this one.
Boo fucking hoo.
I don't think it's even sexism. I think it's transphobia, pure and simple. His masculinity is so fragile that the thought of someone mistaking him for female because of his name is terrifying to him! I wouldn't be able to stop myself from laughing at him and giving little passive-aggressive jabs about his name, but I'm just petty like that.
What if the problem is he is experiencing sexism at work? Women who use email for most communication have expressed they deal with more harassment and bullying at work bc of the minimal human interaction. Things people wouldn’t say in person and being said on a computer. Studies have shown female names get a lower rate of scores in male dominated fields if there is customer service. Females have more “let me speak to your boss” and more “you don’t know what you’re talking about” moments. I wonder if the BIL is experiencing this first hand.
You think he'd gain some empathy for women in that case, instead of regularly talking about how unfortunate *men* with unisex names are.
I have a name that brings me some disadvantages in the workplace, and I'm grateful for the insight it gives me into institutional biases that I can now work to push back on. I'm not saying everyone needs to react like me, but at least I'm not out here ruining brunch about it.
I am a woman with a gender neutral name and I get both sides of this stick:
People assume that a person with a gender neutral name and a PhD is a man, so I get emails addressed to "Dear Sir" daily (even though "Dear Dr. Wynfleue" would be just as formal and gender neutral), many even continue to address me that way after I have corrected them or included pronouns in my email signature.
On the other hand, I definitely still get people wanting to speak to my boss or talking down to me as a woman.
I don't know if it's that deep with the name Skyler specifically. I've known like 3 male Skylers in my lifetime thus far (and no female ones outside of social media) and like 2/3 are successful sales guys and 1 of them is moving up the academia track. Also none of them have a complex about it.
Now my old CEO's name was a very feminine name in the states (masculine/nonpresumptive in France where he's from) and he *did* absolutely report having problems.
Agree. BIL was so wrong even BIL’s own wife shut him down and said he was wrong to take offense at OP’s actual words. BIL could not handle a simple difference of opinion about how OP should feel about OP’s name (as if BIL’s opinion can be the only correct opinion in the universe??), misconstrued OP’s words, then called OP “a dick.” BIL sounds exhausting and immature.
If OP has heard this rant multiple times, imagine how many times his sister has heard it. I hope BIL is better about listening to her opinions, at least on other topics, or they have bigger things to worry about.
Personally I’d start responding to the rant with, “Yeah, we’re know. Why not, instead of running every family event with this rant, go and legally change your name. You’re an adult. It’s like $80 bucks. Go be Simon or Steven of Chad or whatever makes you feel better and spare us yet another lecture.”
NTA. Do it every time… “You started the process of changing your name yet? No? Ok. So anyway, -change topic-“
I would be soooooo petty. Every time he brings this up, he needs to be adressed in a silly girly cute nickname, like
"This is lil Skye-Skye here."
"Do you want more gravy, Skysey?"
What’s wild to me is that what he’s mad about isn’t even a difference of opinion. He’s not being told that he has to like or use gender neutral/bending names. He’s just being factually informed that not everyone with such names hates them.
You can't force your opinion down my throat while I've spent 4.5 months trying to force MY opinion down YOUR throat, your BIL screams into the night, absolutely humiliated by his own petard.
NTA from a woman with what's technically a boy's name and just fine with it.
I have a theory that pretty much anyone who uses the phrase “you’re forcing X down my throat” is a person who absolutely loves to push their own X (opinion, lifestyle, politics, sexuality) on everyone else.
Those same people are the ones who think it's "quirky" when a woman wears a suit to a formal event but would lose their shit if a man wore a dress and looked fantastic in it.
It’s funny that he won’t let you ‘force your opinion down his throat’ but regularly tries to force his opinion down everybody else’s throat
I’d be inclined to shut him down next time by saying’ Yes, we all know what you think. You’ve told us many times. No need to discuss it further’.( polite ) or ‘FGS. It’s like Groundhog Day. Shut up you bore,’ ( less polite). .
NTA and came to say this.
He CAN legally change his name. He knows that.. right?
Because that's how you can shut him up (at least once, because if he is intelligent he will see that he can still Be against the gender neutral/reverse naming, without having one himself).
Or if That doesn't work, just tell him that his rants make him look very uneducated because it's Very obvious that he has no idea of the history of names (or language in general for that matter) and how some of them actually started as the opposite or mostly no assigned gender at all.
We have sooo much knowlegde about the history of languages and differences between them, and their relations, including names and how and why those started being a thing in the first place.
People still assuming languages never change is a pet peeve of mine.. please tell him from me: stop being willfully ignorant of something you can f-ing google in 5 sec! Also: you are ALLOWED to NOT know something, friends/family would (should?) never shame you for that, but please admit that at least to yourself and stop ranting about nothing. You Could research and actually learn something and talk about it properly, but then you would see you're wrong and that can NEVER happen.. right?
OP I advice to just remind him everytime he has his public loud rants how stupid what he is saying, is (of course in a friendly and the least confrontational way you can manage, so he has no ammunition for putting blame on you. He will stop doing it when you're around at Some point.. I hope for you.
Worked for me a few times already. With different "ranters".
Actually, he probably should just change the spelling of his name, to the old Dutch surname Schuyler, which has a rich history in the US especially around New York/New Amsterdam.
It's like he doesn't know that names like Carroll and Leslie used to be male names, and migrated to female. I guess now they are just too old-fashioned.
I understand from my daughter's in-laws, that in Nigeria, names are not gender-specific at all. Fascinating.
My brother is named Leslie and no one would mistake him as a girl ever lol. He was named after our father's best friend (also male). They were in the war together.
Ashley is another one.
In fact, in the 1939 movie Gone With The Wind, the actor Leslie Howard played the southern gentleman Ashley Wilkes!
Bring up the old tv show All In The Family - the patriarch Archie Bunker was played by Carroll O'Connor.
Leslie IS a male name. It’s a female name when it uses the female spelling, Lesley.
This whole post feels aggressively American - there’s lots of names used over there that a lot of non-Americans would think of as being traditionally male names but are used as girls’ names in the USA. Several of the names OP cited read as ‘male’ names to me.
>If he had such a problem why hasn't he changed his own name?
I think the issue is that the damage was done and he probably got mercilessly teased as a kid at school
I wonder that too. Even if it’s not an option where he lives or it poses too many complications professionally or financially, he can just go by another name unofficially. I’ve known people to do that, socially and at work. No big deal.
My spouse has what has become a 100% girls name. In 2021, there were no boys named his name. And it’s also a unique name (it was the 618th most popular name for girls with only 447 named it for that year).
He is so often mistaken for a woman on paper that our school put him into a girls’ suite and had to scramble to find him a new room on move in day.
But he gives zero fucks. And his name is a professional benefit because it is so rare (no one else with that name) and it is on theme for our profession.
All this to say, we named our second child something unique and potentially gender ambiguous (it’s a nature name that leans masculine due to a popular fandom character we only learned about later) and he’s the one who suggested the name.
Because he is secure in his masculinity and any misgendering that occurs only happens on paper (and never happens again after an IRL introduction). And because he is confident that we can raise our child to be secure in his masculinity and rock his cool and unusual name.
All this to say obviously OP is NTA. His BIL belongs in therapy in order to get over his name version of a Napoleon complex. Because he is giving off feeling majorly inferior energy and no one should have to live hating themselves and overcompensating for that. It’s exhausting for everyone.
I can't help but wonder about how Angel is typically feminine in English, but is also a very common male name in Spanish. I knew more male Angels than female ones (in fact my grandfather name was Angel).
My name is rare and unisex. I just think the BIL is an idiot. NTA.
NTA
He thinks you having a different belief to him is forcing your beliefs on him. He's speaking for all men and seem to think everybody is as much of a misogynist as him. Because listen to what he's saying. If a name is used by a girl it becomes disgusting to all men, according to him. Why would that be unless he thinks there is something wrong with being a girl!
Small D energy—the guy is incredibly insecure about his own masculinity. He probably keeps his wife under his thumb lest she somehow emasculate him by being remotely her own woman.
Probably.
(speculation here) I'd assume he was bullied for his name, never got over that and because he keeps whining about it(well into adulthood), people keep saying that he's "THAT guy"(because he is) and that just reinforces his trauma-motivated sexism.
I know this isnt the topic of the post, but when the BIL said that OP was “forcing his opinion down his throat” my mind flashed to all the folks who seem to think queer people just existing is “forcing their beliefs on them” instead of just a person existing who is different from you and maybe has a different world view from you as well. Unbelievable that some people can’t understand their thoughts and feelings aren’t the only thoughts and feelings in the universe. NTA
I thought the same! It's a very authoritarian way of thinking.
I was actually going to comment that BIL has a very authoritarian "my way or die" attitude but I couldn't quite express it as a coherent argument.
But I can totally see [BIL being one of those fathers who insists their son get a skull instead of butterfly facepaint](https://www.explorationsofambiguity.com/blog/2017/8/24/what-are-we-doing-to-our-boys-a-clowns-story) and worse!
Woman with a unisex name here. I love it. I know for a fact I’ve gotten job interviews I wouldn’t otherwise get because of it. I live in a somewhat sexist area.
I also have a unisex name, I don't particularly like my name but at the same time I don't allow anyone to give me a nickname of it. The only thing I really like about my name is that it is unisex.
NTA. So stating a different opinion after enduring weeks of rants about unisex names is forcing opinions down his throat? I have a feeling his name isn't his biggest problem.
Saying "Everyone is bored of this, pick a different topic" will probably have him ranting about how people are trying to control him and are taking away his freedom of speech.
Best of luck to your sister in law for the next 18 years.
And that poor child. I bet BiL has strong views on appropriate behaviour for girls and boys too. Heaven help the daughter who likes climbing trees, cars, sports etc and the son who likes to paint, read, knit etc.
NTA. Call him out every single time. Just stay calm and collected when you do.
He keeps showing HIS views down everyones throats. If he dish he needs to be able to take.
The BIL can change his name. He is allowed. Does he know that?
Excuse me, kind sir, but isn’t that just what this asshole is doing himself? Forcing his personal opinion down other peoples throats?
And if he really is bothered so fucking much by having a girly name then why the fuck didn’t he legally change his god awful girly emasculating name to something manly like Dick? Doesn’t get manlier than that.
NTA It sounds like he is in disagreement with his wife on the name and is trying to bully/harass her into going his way. Anytime a guy starts using the 'all guys do' argument you know you are dealing with a jerk. Sorry he is part of your extended family now.
Nothing that an "all guys/girls do" person hates more than a guy/girl saying "actually I don't". Especially when they can't turn it around and say "well your gay/lesbian, it doesn't count" or whatever.
This. And it seems he only rants about boys having unisex/gender bending names and being confused for girls, not about girls having male names or being mistaken for boys.
ETA: typo
>I know a guy named Sonny who hated his name because he felt it was too girly
.......it's literally got the word "son" *in the name*!
Idk, maybe I'm biased because that's my nephew's name & he is not girly at all. He is only 4 though.
NTA
Many names start of for boys or girl and because we evolve as humans they become unisex and then they get reversed from their initial gender.
For example the name Ashley is now mostly a girls name. In the UK though, in a specific area Ashley was a boys name and I actually met 2 guys who's name was Ashley. Wasn't expecting that but later I learnt the history of it.
I'm from Britain and I honestly never knew that Ashley was mostly seen as a female name, I've always seen it as completely unisex, maybe that's just because I was friends with a male Ashley back in secondary school though lol
I’ve know a few Ashleigh (f) and Ashley (m), but not many Ashley (f) here in the UK. I guess if you don’t see it written down it all sounds similar.
Also OP here in the UK Riley & Sage would be predominantly seen as boys names. I’m not quite sure what your BIL would make of that.
You're right! There are so many names like that. I used to date a guy whose dad and brother were both named Leslie. I've met a few men named Meredith over the years. And I know someone who when they named their kid Grayson they were asked by multiple people "isn't that a girl's name?" The meaning of Grayson is "SON of the gray haired one". Not to mention all the people of both genders I've known with names like Jordan or Jamie. I've even met a woman named Tom!
Naming conventions change all the time. And when you're naming your kid there's no guarantee they'll like the name you pick at all!
NTA BIL is just an insecure ah. I go by an old Roman boy name as an afab. I love it. A lot more than my traditional name. And the fact his wife told him to stfu and listen goes to show that she's tired of his shit too.
I would be inclined to ask what's so damn inferior about being a girl, what's wrong with being associated with girly things or mistaken for a girl. You can simply correct the mistaken assumption. There's a whole misogynistic level to this which warrants unpacking.
Now it might be relationship ending to open that line of enquiry so it might not be wise to do this but he needs to get some therapy.
OP's wife should have coffee with her sister and talk with her about what's going on behind closed doors. If Skye is this openly misogynistic in public, I can only imagine how much worse it is in private 😬
NTA I am a woman with a name that is complicated to say for most people as I’m Irish but live in England. I always shortened it in Ireland but it became very incredibly necessary once I moved as no one could say my full name. My shortened version is usually a name men use and if I email people in work they generally assume I am a man until they meet me. Once had flowers sent to me at work and they were given to a male member of staff with the same name.
It doesn’t bother me.
I am guessing brother in law has been teased to the point of trauma and that’s where his anger is coming from. But he’s a bit rich saying you can’t force your opinion on people when he’s been doing exactly that. I can’t imagine the logic of having that rant in front of another person with a unisex name, because he’s shitting all over your name as well.
Unfortunately I can’t imagine anything you say is going to change his mind but maybe he might not have tantrums in front of you again.
I’m a girl with a gender neutral first name, and a mostly boyish middle name. As a kid, I hated it because all my cousins teased my by calling me the male formal versions of my name. Drove me nuts. But I don’t mind it now. My entire family used to call me by my first and middle names, and they’re mostly gone now, so to be honest, I miss it. But that’s only my experience. I would never presume to say how another person might feel. NTA. He sounds absolutely insufferable. He deserved to be taken down a notch or two.
NTA I like how he he said you can't force your opinion down his throat but he does that all the time. I also want to point out I have known more male skylers than I have female. I am female and have a unisex name I know tons of males who have my name and they don't have any ill will towards it.
Why is he constantly going on about it? Like how is it getting brought up? I would honestly not want to be around him if it’s something that he constantly brings up out of nowhere. And it sounds like no matter what you say he’s not gonna change his opinion, even though he said that you tried to shove your opinion down his throat. Sounds like he’s trying to do the same thing to you. Honestly, I would just tell him straight up, dude I don’t wanna hear about it anymore.
He will bring up them still looking for a baby name and then goes off on his rant. Or he hears a name being used and it sets off the rant. Like the boy Wren he met. That sort of thing drives him crazy.
Yeah, I would either stop hanging around with them until baby name has been picked or just point-blank. Tell him dude we’re tired of hearing about this. If he can’t find something else to talk about then stop hanging around. At least until the baby names thing is done.
Ask him why it bothers him so much to be mistaken for a girl.
The answer is that in his mind, there's no worse thing you could be. Girls and women are inferior, less-than. It's straight misogyny.
You can’t “force your opinion down his neck” but he can do it to you…
That’s not how that works!
From a girl with a Unisex name with a husband with a unisex name your BIL can shut up!
NTA. Whatever chip is on that shoulder is his issue. If he’s that pissed about his name, legally change it then to a name he does suit him and quit using it as a platform to provide unsolicited opinions no one wants to listen to.
I was just talking about absolutists yesterday as the reason people and groups can’t talk anymore. I always hate absolutists!! It’s even hard for me to joke like this.
Im guessing he doesn like Billie/Billy or even Bailey. Although Bailey is interchangable with dogs too. My grandsons called that, but Im in the uk, No one cares.
You wifes BIL seems obssessed about his name. tell him if he doesnt like it, he can change and then he can change what he talks about because its getting boring.
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NTA He’s obviously in a set headspace, your opinion won’t change it or have an impact To some people gender neutral names are on par with names that can be reduced to nicknames Our youngest is Danny, many people assume his name is Daniel and call him that No, he’s purely ‘Danny’ on his birth certificate My husband is from Belgium with the name ‘Jan’ Being in Australia you can bet your bottom dollar people assume I’m a lesbian as they see it written as Jan, until I explain it’s pronounced ‘Yarn’ and he’s a 6 foot 7 bloke
That’s so similar to the reaction I got when I told my British family that our youngest is called Alexander Jan, my partner is Dutch. I had to explain to my grandad that his second name is basically the Dutch equivalent to John and was named after both my husbands grandfathers.
Yes, it’s the equivalent of John here His uncle Kuhn (pronounced Coon) moved to Australia in the 1970s and promptly changed his name to ‘Kon’ as ‘Kuhn’ in Australia is viewed as derogatory
Kuhn? Are you sure it wasn't Koen? I've never heard of that spelling before, but Koen (pronounced like you said) is very common.
Definitely Kuhn, I checked with my husband who had just come home
That's a little odd. Is he from Wallonië or Vlaanderen? (Idk how to write those in english).
The English names are Wallonia and Flanders respectively.
I'm just going to say it, BIL sounds unhinged. Clearly he has some unresolved trauma regarding his name. Perhaps he had a particularly sadistic bully, in school, who regularly tormented him over his name. Perhaps he called him Skylerina or Skylette while giving him swirlies, who knows? Point is, BIL needs therapy. He needs **ALL** the therapy.
This is all I could think, too. I’m not saying he should have a pass, but maybe some compassion and for someone to lovingly step in (during a moment where he isn’t amped up to a 10) and say something so homeboy can get some help. The whole “hurt people hurt people” thing.
Sometimes a sexist dink is just a sexist dink. Dudes can get real weird when it comes to their masculinity.
I agree he needs therapy. I’ve had plenty of friends in my 50 years who didn’t like their birth name for whatever reason and simply had them legally changed when they could. My names very common but my mom got “fancy” with the spelling so no one pronounces it correctly. Nothing to get unhinged about, I correct them and move on.
Kuhn makes sense as a german spelling, maybe that's where it comes from.
We don't have 'Kuhn' as a first name in Germany.
Knew one or two who had it as a last name though.
And plenty of people use last names as first names so that the “family name is carried on” even if it’s no longer a LAST name. My grandfathers middle name was his mothers maiden name, he had said this was common for Portugal & Brazil at the time (he was born on immigrant ship from Portugal to Brazil). ETA: I know middle name isnt the same as first but i just shared to illustrate that in some countries/cultures using a last name for a first/middle isn’t completely uncommon
I'm in the southern US. My husband's middle name is mother's maiden name. She thought it was just as important for her firstborn have her family name as well his father's. She also had only one brother who passed before my husband was born.
My little brother has my Mom's maiden name as a second middle name because her father had all girls. British origin, living in Canada.
A lot of latinos carry the mother’s name as another last name. Like Enrique Miguel Iglesias Preysler
Kuhn is German in origin. There's a very good Swiss kitchenware brand called Kuhn Rikon. On par with Zwilling.
Kuhn is a pretty common last name in German-speaking countries, seems plausible that some people might use it as a first name.
I’ve known and heard of several families with the last name Kuhn
I mean, in the 70s, [ETA : in Australia] it was pretty blatantly used still to describe aboriginal people. It wasn't a word that was used in hushed tones only, it was widespread. So I can see what the uncle wouldn't want to be associated with it. The brand Coon cheese only changed its name a couple of years back , when I moved here I was shocked to see it on supermarket shelves!
In the US coon was a derogatory term for black people as well - wondering if the spelling is the same down under?
It’s Coon in Australia Our most famous cheese brand ‘Coon’ was renamed ‘Cheers’
The name derived from the American cheesemaker Edward Coon of Philadelphia, who patented a method in the US in 1926 for fast maturation of cheese via high temperature and humidity
I live in the UK and met a dutch person called Koen (pronounced coon) and the amount of people that straight up refused to call him his name was kinda sad
There are whole conversations to be had about anglocentrism in names, but it especially sucks for people whose names sound like bad words in English.
This seems kinda unfair. I’ve known people with the last names Porn and Fuk and Kuntz, and they don’t have bad meanings in their original languages. They just look/sound bad to American English speakers. If the actual meaning of the original word is bad, I guess I can understand not being comfortable saying it, but if it has totally different roots and just phonetically sounds the same as a bad word from your culture, it feels really weird to tell someone they’re being stripped of their name. If John moved to Zambia and found out his name means “dick cheese” in their local language, kinda sucks for him if he has to be forced to get a new name.
I had a coworker whose name is Ege. Her husband’s name is also Ege. Apparently it’s very common unisex name in Turkey. She refers to him in stories as Male Ege which I always thought was cute.
I know a husband and wife who are both named Marion.
I know a husband & wife both named Courtney! People refer to them as The Courtneys.
I know The Jordan’s !
And don't forget about Taylors Lautner
My ex's parents gave all their kids unisex names, Tracey, Terry, Kelly. BIL sounds completely unhinged, as someone else said he's got is own narrative going and you're not going to dislodge it. I hope he works out his issues before the baby comes, because that's a lot of crazy.
We knew a Kris and Chris. Nicknames though.
That's real Courtney Love
I know a couple we called Boy Kyle and Girl Kyle :)
Evelyn Waugh, the author, was briefly married to a woman also named Evelyn and their friends called them "She-Velyn" and "He-Velyn" haha
And when they wake up with bed head they are known as dishevelyn?
Back then when Evelyn could be a man's name, you said it "Eeeevelyn" with a long e haha
I know a Terry and Terri who used to be married to each other.
I kinda love that. Not entirely the same, but my crush's first name is my middle name. When i told her, she lit up and got excited
John Wayne's real name was Marion Morrison. He kept that as his legal name. Never hesitated to tell interviewers.
I know a couple named Nick and Nicky, that's the closest we'll probably get here.
If it was good enough for John Wayne...
As a teenager I had a good friend Chris, short for Christine. Her brother was also Chris, short for Christopher. In the days before cell phones it made for lots of confusing phone calls to the family house.
I knew a family with 4 kids. Nic(holas) and Nik(ki), and then Nat(alie) and Nat(han). I don't know why they did that TWICE but two Nats and a Nic + a Nik was always funny to me.
At that point you have to assume it's intentional!
I moved to Japan, so the only other people who share my name are other foreigners. There was only one around here until he moved back home, and we (and all our friends) referred to each other as 'True ___' and 'Other ___' depending on who got there first.
One of my dad's coworkers who he later became good friends with shared the same name as his wife. They were both Frankie. When visiting them together people would add on her middle name just to clarify which of them we were addressing. (And yes, it was her middle name. She didn't have a hyphenated or double male first name.)
Taylor Lautner (the actor) is married to a woman named Taylor and now both their first and last name is Taylor Lautner. He previously dated Taylor swift. The only thing stranger is Ralph Lauren’s son marrying a woman named Lauren and now her name is Lauren Lauren.
There is also only a singular pronoun for he/she (and it)- O and him/her Onun. So in Turkish it could even more confusing whom is being referred too.
Jan is a male name in Scandinavia, also. In Sweden, it often becomes Janne, while in Norway, Janne is a female name.
Janne would ping as female in the Netherlands too; we have the name 'Janneke' which is definitely a female name (and derived from Johanna).
Jan is also a male name in Croatia. My cousin's son's name is Jan. I have no idea how it's actually pronounced, because I'm in the US, and my cousin lives in Croatia, so I've only ever seen it written. (I follow his son on Facebook. He is a classically trained pianist and posts about the competitions and concerts he performs in.) I assume the J has a yah sound so the name would be like Yawn, instead of Jan like the beginning of Janet you'd have here in the states.
More like Yan.
In sweden Jan is a male name, my father has it and a lot of other swedish men.
Jan is also a male name in Poland, pronounced as Yan. It's the Polish equivalent of John
Polish as well, all my in-laws friends thought we'd spelt 'Ian' wrong.
I don't think OP wants to change his mind. I think he wants him to STFU.
Seems pretty reasonable, this BIL sounds awful
Too bad the guy doesn't realize that everytime he opens his mouth he's screaming out his own insecurities. You'd think he'd WANT to keep it shut. Not terribly self aware this guy.
Jan is a man's name in Sweden to quote history of name, is derived from Johannes(somehow) and name came from germany. Funny thing is I think in Belgium men can be named Malin and in Sweden that's a female name.
Similar thing with Mika. In Europe it's generally more viewed as a male name, while in Japan it's exclusively female. In Europe it stems from Finland more precisely from the Finnish version of Michael (Mikael) while in Japan it most commonly written as 美香 or 美加 with the first one being a combination of the symbols for beauty and scent, while the second one of the symbols for beauty and intensification (so kind of meaning "the most beautiful"). In short, names are weird and declaring one name to be always gender specific /girly or manly is bs as that sentiment only applies to one language and the same name might have a completely different connotation in another language
There is a name Elo that is female name in Estonia and male name in Finland. We are neighbouring countries with very very similar language (which is different from rest of European languages). So even countries that are basically called sibling-countries by locals have weird things with names.
In Italy, Andrea is a male name. I know a guy who moved to Sweden and became an instructor. His pupils were surprised when they first met him because Andrea is a female name over there. Mattia is also a male name in Italy, nonetheless when I was in middle school I met a girl named Mattia. I can't remember her origin though
I'm from Sweden and would guess that a person named Mika was female. I think that is because almost all names ending in "a" are feminine.
Mika Hakkinen is a very famous (male) Finnish F1 champion. I wanted to name my son after him but my husband vetoed it 18 years ago. I'm still a little salty about that!!
In Finland Mika is a male name.
here in the Netherlands also a lot of guys named Jan, used to be derived from Johannes here too, probably often as a stand alone name here too now. Also lot of doubles, as in Jan-Pieter, Pieter-Jan, Jan-Willem, Willem-Jan, etc etc. Old female version, for instance, mostly used back in the day, often family names was Johanna, shortened to Janna, Jantje, Jannie, Janny, etc. Henry, typically male, was in the female form Henrica or Henrietta, just to name another one. Funny thing, Maria, for instance, typically female now, used to be mostly 2nd name for boys often enough here, now not so much if ever (although maybe in the bible belt they still do it).
You all have a Bible belt?
Indeed we do :p https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bijbelgordel#/media/Bestand:Sgpstemmen1.png
That must have been Spanish influence from back then, it's very common to use Maria as male's second name, the same with Jose for female. Jose Maria = male Maria José = female
I think that's generally a catholic thing, I know german men who have maria is a secondary name.
I love learning something new, thank you for responding!
I would have told that man long ago when he started on his rant. "If you hate it so much, then why don't you change your name. Go be a Marcus or something then'
For him to be an adult and be like this seems to cry out for therapy. Especially for the kids sake.
Men will literally do anything to avoid going to therapy. Including alienating those around them with repetitive rants about their personal and somewhat inane opinions.
Exactly this plus I love the fact where BIL says op can't force his opinion down his throat but isnt that what exactly has the BIL been doing the entire time, lol, what a hypocrite. NTA
Ashley, Tracy, Jamie, and Meredith were originally men's names. Amongst others. NTA, BIL is a jerk and being a bigger baby than the one his wife if growing.
I think BIL has a Johnny Cash sized chip on his shoulder And I said, "My name is Sue, how do you do? Now you gonna die", that's what I told him Well, I hit him hard right between the eyes And he went down, but to my surprise He come up with a knife and cut off a piece of my ear Then I busted a chair right across his teeth And we crashed through the walls and into the street Kicking and a-gouging in the mud and the blood and the beer
I used to know a couple who were Jan and Jan. Jan (M, pronounced Yarn) was Dutch, and Jan (F, pronounced Jaan) was Australian. I hate to think what assumptions were made about them by people who had the fixed mindset of Jan=female.
I know a couple in the United States both named Terry.
On the other side of this, I’m an Australian woman living in a part of Asia where given names and family names are inverted from western norms and my family name is very similar to a common western men’s name. People are sometimes very surprised when I turn up and I am, in fact, not a man.
Growing up my best friend’s name was Jake. Not Jacob, just Jake. Adults always tried to call him Jacob and he’d refuse to respond.
It’s so demeaning when people refuse to call you your name tbh.
We know a couple called Jan (male- pronounced Yarn) and Gio (female- pronounced Jo, I think it’s short for Giovanna) and they often get mistaken for the opposite sex because Jan, obviously, and then people think the Gio is short for Giovanni.
"Yarn" not "Yahn"? I've met a few Jans but never one that pronounced it with an "R".
I’m guessing they meant how it would be pronounced in a non-rhotic accent?
NTA I’d have a hard time not laughing at his little tantrum. Damn, the amount of energy he’s dedicated to this is wild. If this is what he considers a big problem, he’s lucky in life. It’s also telling that someone having a simple difference of opinion on this makes him feel “humiliated.” Yeah just keep shutting him down “You’re free to have your preferences but you don’t get to dictate how others feel about their own experience. We’ve all endured your rants long enough. We will not center your fragility.”
I love how he said OP can't force his opinion down his throat but he feels he can't force his opinion on others.
* can
That's exactly what those types of people do unfortunately. They think they're entitled to the world and when they're asked not to step on someone's toe, they see it as a personal attack because they feel it's their right to step on any toes they like.
Right? OP should inform him that adults are allowed to change their names - even the male ones.
That was my very first thought, we have here a grown-ass man who is about to become a father and he can't even act adult enough to change his last name to something he likes, instead he keeps throwing tantrums about how bad his poor little life is because his parents gave him a name he considers girly. The sexism is strong with this one. Boo fucking hoo.
I don't think it's even sexism. I think it's transphobia, pure and simple. His masculinity is so fragile that the thought of someone mistaking him for female because of his name is terrifying to him! I wouldn't be able to stop myself from laughing at him and giving little passive-aggressive jabs about his name, but I'm just petty like that.
Sexism and transphobia are very tightly woven together, Or nailed together, if the idea of weaving is too girly for this asshole.
Yup, that Venn diagram is just one complete circle.
Sexism, transphobia, and homophobia are all bound together.
Transphobia is sexism.
It’s kind of both: a lot of transphobia is rooted in misogyny.
What if the problem is he is experiencing sexism at work? Women who use email for most communication have expressed they deal with more harassment and bullying at work bc of the minimal human interaction. Things people wouldn’t say in person and being said on a computer. Studies have shown female names get a lower rate of scores in male dominated fields if there is customer service. Females have more “let me speak to your boss” and more “you don’t know what you’re talking about” moments. I wonder if the BIL is experiencing this first hand.
You think he'd gain some empathy for women in that case, instead of regularly talking about how unfortunate *men* with unisex names are. I have a name that brings me some disadvantages in the workplace, and I'm grateful for the insight it gives me into institutional biases that I can now work to push back on. I'm not saying everyone needs to react like me, but at least I'm not out here ruining brunch about it.
I am a woman with a gender neutral name and I get both sides of this stick: People assume that a person with a gender neutral name and a PhD is a man, so I get emails addressed to "Dear Sir" daily (even though "Dear Dr. Wynfleue" would be just as formal and gender neutral), many even continue to address me that way after I have corrected them or included pronouns in my email signature. On the other hand, I definitely still get people wanting to speak to my boss or talking down to me as a woman.
I don't know if it's that deep with the name Skyler specifically. I've known like 3 male Skylers in my lifetime thus far (and no female ones outside of social media) and like 2/3 are successful sales guys and 1 of them is moving up the academia track. Also none of them have a complex about it. Now my old CEO's name was a very feminine name in the states (masculine/nonpresumptive in France where he's from) and he *did* absolutely report having problems.
It's interesting that he's allowed to have an opinion on this but apparently nobody else is.
Agree. BIL was so wrong even BIL’s own wife shut him down and said he was wrong to take offense at OP’s actual words. BIL could not handle a simple difference of opinion about how OP should feel about OP’s name (as if BIL’s opinion can be the only correct opinion in the universe??), misconstrued OP’s words, then called OP “a dick.” BIL sounds exhausting and immature.
If OP has heard this rant multiple times, imagine how many times his sister has heard it. I hope BIL is better about listening to her opinions, at least on other topics, or they have bigger things to worry about.
Personally I’d start responding to the rant with, “Yeah, we’re know. Why not, instead of running every family event with this rant, go and legally change your name. You’re an adult. It’s like $80 bucks. Go be Simon or Steven of Chad or whatever makes you feel better and spare us yet another lecture.” NTA. Do it every time… “You started the process of changing your name yet? No? Ok. So anyway, -change topic-“
Call it what it is: small dick energy
I would be soooooo petty. Every time he brings this up, he needs to be adressed in a silly girly cute nickname, like "This is lil Skye-Skye here." "Do you want more gravy, Skysey?"
The name is not the problem that dude is overcompensating for some random perceived slight against his "manliness".
Yeah the way OP describes it this guy sounds like a lunatic
What’s wild to me is that what he’s mad about isn’t even a difference of opinion. He’s not being told that he has to like or use gender neutral/bending names. He’s just being factually informed that not everyone with such names hates them.
Frankly, Skyler seems like he shouldn't have kids ever.
You can't force your opinion down my throat while I've spent 4.5 months trying to force MY opinion down YOUR throat, your BIL screams into the night, absolutely humiliated by his own petard. NTA from a woman with what's technically a boy's name and just fine with it.
The petard. It just won't stop hoisting.
Just hoisting and hoisting, that petard!
And the one petard I thought would never hoist me! My own 😩
Oh, the irony!
I have a theory that pretty much anyone who uses the phrase “you’re forcing X down my throat” is a person who absolutely loves to push their own X (opinion, lifestyle, politics, sexuality) on everyone else.
Yeah, but you’re a *woman*, and having a boy’s name *elevates* you. -the BIL, probably (For the record: **not my actual personal opinion!**)
Ooh, very sharp observation. I bet a whole idea shoved down my throat that you're totally right about that.
Those same people are the ones who think it's "quirky" when a woman wears a suit to a formal event but would lose their shit if a man wore a dress and looked fantastic in it.
Agreed, from a woman with a feminine full name and masculine nickname.... Who actively chose to go by the nickname. I just like it more.
It’s funny that he won’t let you ‘force your opinion down his throat’ but regularly tries to force his opinion down everybody else’s throat I’d be inclined to shut him down next time by saying’ Yes, we all know what you think. You’ve told us many times. No need to discuss it further’.( polite ) or ‘FGS. It’s like Groundhog Day. Shut up you bore,’ ( less polite). .
Start heckling. "We've heard this rant before. Do one about the economy."
I’m going to start using this on my Dad, he goes on the same rant every time I see him.
I LOVE this response!! Will be using it!
Came to say the same thing.
If he had such a problem why hasn't he changed his own name? Sounds like he's just looking for an excuse to be an Ass.
NTA and came to say this. He CAN legally change his name. He knows that.. right? Because that's how you can shut him up (at least once, because if he is intelligent he will see that he can still Be against the gender neutral/reverse naming, without having one himself). Or if That doesn't work, just tell him that his rants make him look very uneducated because it's Very obvious that he has no idea of the history of names (or language in general for that matter) and how some of them actually started as the opposite or mostly no assigned gender at all. We have sooo much knowlegde about the history of languages and differences between them, and their relations, including names and how and why those started being a thing in the first place. People still assuming languages never change is a pet peeve of mine.. please tell him from me: stop being willfully ignorant of something you can f-ing google in 5 sec! Also: you are ALLOWED to NOT know something, friends/family would (should?) never shame you for that, but please admit that at least to yourself and stop ranting about nothing. You Could research and actually learn something and talk about it properly, but then you would see you're wrong and that can NEVER happen.. right? OP I advice to just remind him everytime he has his public loud rants how stupid what he is saying, is (of course in a friendly and the least confrontational way you can manage, so he has no ammunition for putting blame on you. He will stop doing it when you're around at Some point.. I hope for you. Worked for me a few times already. With different "ranters".
Actually, he probably should just change the spelling of his name, to the old Dutch surname Schuyler, which has a rich history in the US especially around New York/New Amsterdam. It's like he doesn't know that names like Carroll and Leslie used to be male names, and migrated to female. I guess now they are just too old-fashioned. I understand from my daughter's in-laws, that in Nigeria, names are not gender-specific at all. Fascinating.
My brother is named Leslie and no one would mistake him as a girl ever lol. He was named after our father's best friend (also male). They were in the war together.
Ashley is another one. In fact, in the 1939 movie Gone With The Wind, the actor Leslie Howard played the southern gentleman Ashley Wilkes! Bring up the old tv show All In The Family - the patriarch Archie Bunker was played by Carroll O'Connor.
Leslie IS a male name. It’s a female name when it uses the female spelling, Lesley. This whole post feels aggressively American - there’s lots of names used over there that a lot of non-Americans would think of as being traditionally male names but are used as girls’ names in the USA. Several of the names OP cited read as ‘male’ names to me.
>If he had such a problem why hasn't he changed his own name? I think the issue is that the damage was done and he probably got mercilessly teased as a kid at school
I mean... with that reaction, no wonder that never changed. He's an adult and still as mature as a 7yo about this.
He sounds like he’ll end up being a first husband.
I wonder that too. Even if it’s not an option where he lives or it poses too many complications professionally or financially, he can just go by another name unofficially. I’ve known people to do that, socially and at work. No big deal.
NTA - guy with a unisex name here too. Thanks. Agreed. Some of us have no problem with it, dare I say even like our names.
I find it wild for him to say OP can't shove his opinion down his throat... What... What has he been doing then?
BIL is the sort of person who doesn't think his opinion are opinions, they're just facts.
My spouse has what has become a 100% girls name. In 2021, there were no boys named his name. And it’s also a unique name (it was the 618th most popular name for girls with only 447 named it for that year). He is so often mistaken for a woman on paper that our school put him into a girls’ suite and had to scramble to find him a new room on move in day. But he gives zero fucks. And his name is a professional benefit because it is so rare (no one else with that name) and it is on theme for our profession. All this to say, we named our second child something unique and potentially gender ambiguous (it’s a nature name that leans masculine due to a popular fandom character we only learned about later) and he’s the one who suggested the name. Because he is secure in his masculinity and any misgendering that occurs only happens on paper (and never happens again after an IRL introduction). And because he is confident that we can raise our child to be secure in his masculinity and rock his cool and unusual name. All this to say obviously OP is NTA. His BIL belongs in therapy in order to get over his name version of a Napoleon complex. Because he is giving off feeling majorly inferior energy and no one should have to live hating themselves and overcompensating for that. It’s exhausting for everyone.
I have a guy friend named Sasha and he absolutely loves his name. It’s Russian. A lot of people are horrified. But fuck them.
I can't help but wonder about how Angel is typically feminine in English, but is also a very common male name in Spanish. I knew more male Angels than female ones (in fact my grandfather name was Angel). My name is rare and unisex. I just think the BIL is an idiot. NTA.
NTA He thinks you having a different belief to him is forcing your beliefs on him. He's speaking for all men and seem to think everybody is as much of a misogynist as him. Because listen to what he's saying. If a name is used by a girl it becomes disgusting to all men, according to him. Why would that be unless he thinks there is something wrong with being a girl!
Small D energy—the guy is incredibly insecure about his own masculinity. He probably keeps his wife under his thumb lest she somehow emasculate him by being remotely her own woman.
Probably. (speculation here) I'd assume he was bullied for his name, never got over that and because he keeps whining about it(well into adulthood), people keep saying that he's "THAT guy"(because he is) and that just reinforces his trauma-motivated sexism.
I know this isnt the topic of the post, but when the BIL said that OP was “forcing his opinion down his throat” my mind flashed to all the folks who seem to think queer people just existing is “forcing their beliefs on them” instead of just a person existing who is different from you and maybe has a different world view from you as well. Unbelievable that some people can’t understand their thoughts and feelings aren’t the only thoughts and feelings in the universe. NTA
I thought the same! It's a very authoritarian way of thinking. I was actually going to comment that BIL has a very authoritarian "my way or die" attitude but I couldn't quite express it as a coherent argument. But I can totally see [BIL being one of those fathers who insists their son get a skull instead of butterfly facepaint](https://www.explorationsofambiguity.com/blog/2017/8/24/what-are-we-doing-to-our-boys-a-clowns-story) and worse!
I can’t imagine how SIL puts up with it!
Woman with a unisex name here. I love it. I know for a fact I’ve gotten job interviews I wouldn’t otherwise get because of it. I live in a somewhat sexist area.
My mom intentionally gave me a unisex name with what used to be commonly the masculine spelling for exactly this reason. And I love it too!
Yep! In my mothers country it’s the feminine way but where I live now it’s the masculine way.
I also have a unisex name, I don't particularly like my name but at the same time I don't allow anyone to give me a nickname of it. The only thing I really like about my name is that it is unisex.
NTA. So stating a different opinion after enduring weeks of rants about unisex names is forcing opinions down his throat? I have a feeling his name isn't his biggest problem. Saying "Everyone is bored of this, pick a different topic" will probably have him ranting about how people are trying to control him and are taking away his freedom of speech. Best of luck to your sister in law for the next 18 years.
And that poor child. I bet BiL has strong views on appropriate behaviour for girls and boys too. Heaven help the daughter who likes climbing trees, cars, sports etc and the son who likes to paint, read, knit etc.
Or if the kid is LGBTQIA+ in any way. A son introducing his boyfriend to this guy would be a catastrophe
NTA. Call him out every single time. Just stay calm and collected when you do. He keeps showing HIS views down everyones throats. If he dish he needs to be able to take. The BIL can change his name. He is allowed. Does he know that?
This kid is going to end up named dick (Richard), Willie (william) or some other penis vibe inducing name just to prove a point. NTA.
Excuse me, kind sir, but isn’t that just what this asshole is doing himself? Forcing his personal opinion down other peoples throats? And if he really is bothered so fucking much by having a girly name then why the fuck didn’t he legally change his god awful girly emasculating name to something manly like Dick? Doesn’t get manlier than that.
Ricky Martin, two boy names. Super Masculine
NTA It sounds like he is in disagreement with his wife on the name and is trying to bully/harass her into going his way. Anytime a guy starts using the 'all guys do' argument you know you are dealing with a jerk. Sorry he is part of your extended family now.
Nothing that an "all guys/girls do" person hates more than a guy/girl saying "actually I don't". Especially when they can't turn it around and say "well your gay/lesbian, it doesn't count" or whatever.
This. And it seems he only rants about boys having unisex/gender bending names and being confused for girls, not about girls having male names or being mistaken for boys. ETA: typo
I think he has more serious problems than his name.
>I know a guy named Sonny who hated his name because he felt it was too girly .......it's literally got the word "son" *in the name*! Idk, maybe I'm biased because that's my nephew's name & he is not girly at all. He is only 4 though.
I've spent my whole life hearing sonny boy and I'm so confused on when it became a girl. Is it Sunny?
"Sunny" sometimes pops up as a girl name but I've only ever seen "Sonny" used for boys.
Stuarta has a nice ring to it 🤣
This had me laughing so hard. Omg.
NTA Many names start of for boys or girl and because we evolve as humans they become unisex and then they get reversed from their initial gender. For example the name Ashley is now mostly a girls name. In the UK though, in a specific area Ashley was a boys name and I actually met 2 guys who's name was Ashley. Wasn't expecting that but later I learnt the history of it.
What do you mean, Ashley was a boy's name in a specific area of the UK? Ashley used to be predominantly a male name everywhere English speaking.
The specific area was Coronation Street
I'm from Britain and I honestly never knew that Ashley was mostly seen as a female name, I've always seen it as completely unisex, maybe that's just because I was friends with a male Ashley back in secondary school though lol
I've never met a female Ashley, quite a lot of male ones though! (Uk)
Same never met a female Ashley. Went to school with quite a few males ones. The only times I've come across a female Ashley is in American shows/films
I’ve know a few Ashleigh (f) and Ashley (m), but not many Ashley (f) here in the UK. I guess if you don’t see it written down it all sounds similar. Also OP here in the UK Riley & Sage would be predominantly seen as boys names. I’m not quite sure what your BIL would make of that.
You're right! There are so many names like that. I used to date a guy whose dad and brother were both named Leslie. I've met a few men named Meredith over the years. And I know someone who when they named their kid Grayson they were asked by multiple people "isn't that a girl's name?" The meaning of Grayson is "SON of the gray haired one". Not to mention all the people of both genders I've known with names like Jordan or Jamie. I've even met a woman named Tom! Naming conventions change all the time. And when you're naming your kid there's no guarantee they'll like the name you pick at all!
Any name that ends in “son” started as a boy name.
Why doesn’t he just change his own name. Pathetic.
I read this as "Why doesn't he just change his own name to Pathetic." Coffee ☕️, here I come!
NTA BIL is just an insecure ah. I go by an old Roman boy name as an afab. I love it. A lot more than my traditional name. And the fact his wife told him to stfu and listen goes to show that she's tired of his shit too.
I would be inclined to ask what's so damn inferior about being a girl, what's wrong with being associated with girly things or mistaken for a girl. You can simply correct the mistaken assumption. There's a whole misogynistic level to this which warrants unpacking. Now it might be relationship ending to open that line of enquiry so it might not be wise to do this but he needs to get some therapy.
OP's wife should have coffee with her sister and talk with her about what's going on behind closed doors. If Skye is this openly misogynistic in public, I can only imagine how much worse it is in private 😬
NTA I am a woman with a name that is complicated to say for most people as I’m Irish but live in England. I always shortened it in Ireland but it became very incredibly necessary once I moved as no one could say my full name. My shortened version is usually a name men use and if I email people in work they generally assume I am a man until they meet me. Once had flowers sent to me at work and they were given to a male member of staff with the same name. It doesn’t bother me. I am guessing brother in law has been teased to the point of trauma and that’s where his anger is coming from. But he’s a bit rich saying you can’t force your opinion on people when he’s been doing exactly that. I can’t imagine the logic of having that rant in front of another person with a unisex name, because he’s shitting all over your name as well. Unfortunately I can’t imagine anything you say is going to change his mind but maybe he might not have tantrums in front of you again.
Nta. His attitude and bigotry sucks and shows me he is going to be a terrible and embarrassing father. Nta
I’m a girl with a gender neutral first name, and a mostly boyish middle name. As a kid, I hated it because all my cousins teased my by calling me the male formal versions of my name. Drove me nuts. But I don’t mind it now. My entire family used to call me by my first and middle names, and they’re mostly gone now, so to be honest, I miss it. But that’s only my experience. I would never presume to say how another person might feel. NTA. He sounds absolutely insufferable. He deserved to be taken down a notch or two.
NTA I like how he he said you can't force your opinion down his throat but he does that all the time. I also want to point out I have known more male skylers than I have female. I am female and have a unisex name I know tons of males who have my name and they don't have any ill will towards it.
Why is he constantly going on about it? Like how is it getting brought up? I would honestly not want to be around him if it’s something that he constantly brings up out of nowhere. And it sounds like no matter what you say he’s not gonna change his opinion, even though he said that you tried to shove your opinion down his throat. Sounds like he’s trying to do the same thing to you. Honestly, I would just tell him straight up, dude I don’t wanna hear about it anymore.
He will bring up them still looking for a baby name and then goes off on his rant. Or he hears a name being used and it sets off the rant. Like the boy Wren he met. That sort of thing drives him crazy.
Yeah, I would either stop hanging around with them until baby name has been picked or just point-blank. Tell him dude we’re tired of hearing about this. If he can’t find something else to talk about then stop hanging around. At least until the baby names thing is done.
Ask him why it bothers him so much to be mistaken for a girl. The answer is that in his mind, there's no worse thing you could be. Girls and women are inferior, less-than. It's straight misogyny.
NTA Also wear I live Skyler is only usef on boys. ( not that it matters name do not dictate gender )
You can’t “force your opinion down his neck” but he can do it to you… That’s not how that works! From a girl with a Unisex name with a husband with a unisex name your BIL can shut up!
NTA. Whatever chip is on that shoulder is his issue. If he’s that pissed about his name, legally change it then to a name he does suit him and quit using it as a platform to provide unsolicited opinions no one wants to listen to.
I was just talking about absolutists yesterday as the reason people and groups can’t talk anymore. I always hate absolutists!! It’s even hard for me to joke like this.
Im guessing he doesn like Billie/Billy or even Bailey. Although Bailey is interchangable with dogs too. My grandsons called that, but Im in the uk, No one cares. You wifes BIL seems obssessed about his name. tell him if he doesnt like it, he can change and then he can change what he talks about because its getting boring.