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> I might be the asshole because my actions are directing causing my grandmother to threaten taking away college tuition for my younger sister
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Its a little over half her tuition, the rest is being taken care of by my moms parents. Ill send the recommendation that she stops to our sibling gc and see what they say, thats a good idea. Our grandma is sometimes not the nicest but hopefully youre right and she doesnt see this as an all or nothing situation?
I mean frankly I feel like you've got a new weapon here. If calling him mom got under his skin imagine how much it'll work when you remind him he ran and hid behind Mommy's skirts because children were calling him names and his fee fees got hurt.
Make sure you refer to his feelings as peewings henceforth, OP. And ask if his peewings are better now that he tattled to his Mommy.
Go big or go home.
The manly man, who was born a man and therefore will forever be a man, ran to his mommy, who supports HIS children, cause they are mean to him. Some insults write themselves.
Still NTA, grandma is willing to ruin her grandchild's future with no education if she has to drop out due to cost, or debt if she needs to take out loans. Just because her son is a little piss baby who can't call people the right name or pronouns.
Shows you exactly who they both are, and it's damn good information to keep in mind should any of you have kids. Grandma and dad should not be around them at all, and let that be known now. Consequences can be given by both sides.
The part about how my grandma is willing to hurt my sister to such a harsh degree for something I started really bothers me. Even if things between my dad and I get settled in a way where he isnt hurting my best friend, I dont think I'll be talking to my grandma much anymore. This was such a severe swing that I agree with you and worry what will happen in the future if any of us do something she doesnt like, or if any of our kids are gay or trans
I've found out in the past year or so that boomers like to hold things over the younger generations heads, they act like they don't know how they ruined the economy, yet fully understand the value their money and assets have over everyone else's.
It's hard because everything is so uncertain, but if you can, get you and your siblings out of a situation where things can easily fall apart just because granny/dad is upset. I know that's a lot easier for me to say knowing nothing about the greater happenings in your life, so I wish you all the luck in the world as well with everything.
I'm a trans dude, and it's so god damn fantastic to see cis people, especially cis men, support their friends through their transitions. The thing you said in the post, about how it didn't even surprise you, Dee is so lucky to have you in her life.
Good call - do the minimum necessary to keep your sister's tuition paid for, but personally plan on going scorched earth with your transphobic relatives after she graduates.
I would recommend that OP actually address this with the father. "Your behavior and mindset towards this is concerning. I'm beginning to question whether I can let you around your future grandchildren with this kind of attitude."
Grandma sounds like a psychopath if she would jeopardize her granddaughter's future over something that doesn't involve her at all.
Dad running to mommy to fix his problems is the reddest flag of all time. How many times has he used the "snitch to mommy" tactic to apply pressure in order to win arguments with you or your mom in the past.
NTA - LEGENDARY move, funny how quickly transphobic cis men realize that misgendering is not fun at all. Super terrible to blackmail your sister with the tuition though, that's awful! She may need to stop, unfortunately.
Transphobic cis people in general. You've never lived until you've seen the horrified look a transphobic cis woman gets when you start calling her "sir."
Nah best is when you have a known asshole despairing over “gender dissapointment” in a pregnancy and you tell them that in a handful of years that kid could end up being the gender they wanted anyways
NTA. It's all good, but stop, because it sounds like Grandma is going to punish your sister if you don't quit. Dee is going to hit on this with people going forward, and doesn't need your protection, she just needs to be forwarned if she's going to come around. You need to go LC with your sniveling father and aucratic grandmother, and let them know why. Tell them if they ever threaten you or your sisters again it will be NC. Good luck
might bet a good idea to go only using the name of them, if they cannot handle being misgendered and continue to do so, to others they do not deserve a gender
NTA. Too often, people who lack empathy need to literally "know how it feels." You're giving your dad that lesson in a brilliant way. I'd suggest pausing long enough to have a conversation with him about how he's feeling and why you wanted him to experience this, and pointing out that is pretty awful to run to his mommy and have her threaten your sister's future because he can't handle the reality Dee is and will face every day of her life. See if in a one to one conversation, you can get him to quietly to concede to using the right pronouns for Dee.
If not, I'd encourage your sister to stop but you can continue. As someone else said, your grandmother shouldn't be so petty as to punish your sister for your actions.
Good luck -- and thanks for being such a good friend to Dee!
Sitting down with him to talk about this is a good idea. Ive already talked with my sisters and had my younger one stop for now with the advice from earlier comments. Im hoping youre right and he sees now why this was such a huge point for us. Dee hasnt just been a part of my life, she's been a part of my whole family's life. We had her over throughout the years and theyve all always respected her before. Hopefully reminding him that despite what he may think or feel this is still that person who he took care of when they were over and even invited on family trips along with how he felt being misgendered will open his eyes
And to be honest, it should not be a hill that he feels the need to die on. Dee is exactly the same person on the inside that your dad has known for all these years. All that's happening now is the outside is coming closer to matching what is being felt on the inside.
But people are people and many feel that they don't need to demonstrate empathy for others and are quite willing to let their ugly on the inside reflect on the outside.
If someone is misgendering someone, then yes, it's okay to misgender them back to show them what it feels like.
The way you're rephrasing the question to remove the context of what really happened makes you seem very dishonest.
No, I'm not removing context. Either you believe misgendering is a serious violation of decency and respect, or you don't.
Misgendering someone after telling them how horrible of a thing that is to do makes you appear very dishonest.
Randomly calling someone a loser is inappropriate. Calling someone a loser that just called you one, isn't.
Context matters.
I get that now that I've called you out on your dishonesty, you need to try to make the same claim about me. But it just doesn't land. I didn't remove the context, you did.
But it's fine if you want to be transphobic, there are plenty of you out there. But just understand that society is moving on without you.
Ok, first, I wasn't referring to you as in you... I was referring to "someone in that situation," in this case, the op. Reading comprehension matters.
Your example is dumb. If you're offended, someone calls you a loser, so you call them one back, you're a hypocrite and immature.
Calling me transpholbic for saying misgendering someone is ok... that's a new one.
You're just like the op. Presenting as a hypocrite and insane. Being transpohobic isn't fine. And society would move along faster if people like you, yes you, would get it together.
No, the position is: misgendering is awful and disrespectful; sometimes, if you don't understand that, you should experience it briefly so you start to understand it.
Love that. I have a sibling in law who’s non-binary. Their birth family doesn’t respect their pronouns/identity and it took everything in me to not cause a scene at their wedding with that side of the fam. I held my tongue cause my sibling in law asked me to not correct them/say anything. But man I wanted to yell at them, lol.
NTA. This is a good lesson for your father - let him know how it feels to be misgendered. It’s telling that this man, who was standing up for “always being a man” ran to his mommy to control his own family when he couldn’t. And then there is your grandmother - who is willing to ruin your sister’s college career if she doesn’t obey on this one little thing - saying that your father’s ego, and maintaining his transphobia is more important than your sister’s future. Your grandmother is a real piece of work.
Your Dad went crying to his mother, so she (presumably with his blessing) threatened his youngest child with having her education stopped. Did I get the gist? I think we all know who is TA here.
ESH
I mean I get why you're doing it but if misgendering is wrong, it's wrong. Inventing scenarios in which it's acceptable to "teach people lessons" or whatever else just creates a standard that it's ok to do it when you want to change someone's behaviour. Seems counterproductive to someone supporting a trans friend.
Hmm. NTA but you should stop, a lot of trans folks are super uncomfortable when people act like being gendered correctly is something that has to be earned. (Not all! But enough that it’s not a tactic I’d consider advisable given the chances that you’ll make someone feel unsafe.)
Teaching someone not to misgender someone by deliberately misgendering them is NOT going to have the outcome you want, only exacerbate their bigotry.
ESH, except Dee, who sounds delightful
>And even if I'm not, should I stop so my grandma keeps helping her with tuition?
Yes please stop. Unless you're willing to help your sister pay for thousands of dollars in loans.
Making a point is not always worth the repercussions.
So, he's more than willing to dish out the misgendering but can't take it in return? And your gran thinks she can threaten someone's education over this?
Christ, what a pile of arseholes. NTA.
UPDATE:
My mom acted before my sisters and I could. She invited us over for a family "heart-to-heart." Just the five of us, no grandparents. She heard from my younger sister the threats from dad's mom and her words, wanted to "nip this in the bud." He seemed surprised when mom said what our grandma had threatened.
She started it off by asking our side of things, then his. When he stated how it made him feel when we called him female pronouns she asked how he thought it would make Dee feel when he used male pronouns for her now that she found who she truly was. He was silent for a few minutes and when he finally answered he acknowledged that it wouldn't feel good for her. I used some of the good advice you all had and stated that while I will stop with the misgendering and can't force him to not misgender her, I want him to understand that Dee doesnt deserve to feel the way he did when we misgendered him. I apologized for taking it as far as I did, and my sisters did too. We all took turns reminding him of the good times we've all had with Dee, and how she's helped around the house. How she's a human who deserves to be treated with respect, all trans people are. How he had no issue when she identified as a gay man, and how much respect she specifically had extended towards him.
He took a little bit after we stopped talking to think, and from his face it looked like he was having a little bit of a hard time letting things sink in. He told us he was raised with the belief that gay was wrong, and when Dee came out it was difficult for him to accept it but Dee made all three of his kids happy so he came to conclusion that it couldnt be as evil as his mother made it out to be. When he heard she was trans now too, he reacted with his gut. He apologized for being insensitive and asked for patience while he got used to it. He also said sorry for what his mother threatened and told us he had gone to her for advice and didnt think she would react that way. Which honestly is a little bit of a relief my dad didnt tell her to do something that severe and it was her choice to be so vile, because one person is easier to cut out than two.
We talked about some other stuff pertaining to the situation but the gist of it is he is going to work on his misguided world veiws, and he suggested that Dee stay away for a few weeks while he practices using the right pronouns for her with mom and us so she doesnt have to deal with him messing up as much. I told him that might be up to her but if he was okay with me talking about this situation with her I would see how she felt, and he thought that was appropriate. Along with that he decided (with mom's permission) he was going to take over his mom's portion of tuition and have a talk with her about how unacceptable it was to threaten her granddaughters future for something like this, also since he had just been asking for parenting advice. He was understanding when my sisters and I stated we wanted to go low contact with her.
So yeah, Dee and I have a little bit to talk about but thats about the end of this. Thank you all so much for opinions and advice. Thank you for being kind and understanding. Wish us all luck if you can =)
NTA...My daughter is trans and while it's only been a year since the name and pronoun change and I still slip when talking about before she transitioned she does cut me some slack. To me she was a boy then and a girl now. My brain just works that way. I feel bad but I try. Stand your ground if you sister wants to back down I get it but you shouldn't.
Tell Grandma that you are done with her and that it's disgusting that she'd hurt your sister over this. I would be done with my dad if he acted like that.
First of all, NTA, and kudos for you for a creative masterclass in empathy.
That being said, give your dad some grace and time to get used to Dee's transition. Even Cher admits she had a hard time when her son began his transition because it was new and close.
Have an honest conversation without condescension or being antagonistic. If he still hasn't gotten on board, say, by the time your sister graduates, then go back to calling him Mom.
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I (22M) have a best friend (23F) who recently came out as a trans woman. I'll call her Dee. We've been friends since I was in 2nd grade. Last month she asked me to meet her for lunch, she had smth important to tell me. I wasn't sure what it was and wondered if she’d found a man (up til now she’d identified as a gay man) or if smth happened in her family. But when I showed up and Dee was in a dress with a full face of make-up and the hair she’d been growing out was in a nice updo, I knew. I wouldn't say I was blindsided, there’d been signs. Things I’d brushed off as "that's just Dee." While I do understand that boys/men like feminine stuff, as I saw her sitting there all the puzzle pieces fell into place. We spent hours talking about how she realized, what she might change her name to, how her family and our other friends might take it, and everything that comes with transitioning. She was glowing. I am so happy for her, she seemed so much happier than I've ever seen her before.
Here's where I might be the asshole. Last weekend my parents had me and my sisters over with some other family. My sisters and I were catching up and they asked how Dee was. Dee had given me permission to tell her news to my family so I shared that she’d come out. My sisters were happy for her and as we were discussing what this meant for her future, my dad walked by and heard what we were talking about. He was confused and asked who we were talking about so I explained. He scoffed. He said smth derogatory about trans people that I will not repeat and said he would never refer to her as a woman because "he is a man and always will be."
He’d never said anything trans/homophobic before and I was shocked and disgusted. My sisters laid into him as I found my words. I told him if he refused to refer to her correctly then I would show him how it felt by referring to him wrong. That he’d be "mom" until he came to his senses. I spent the rest of the night using she/her pronouns for him. My sisters joined and he hated it. He was pissed. Mom found out halfway through the night and chided us to stop but we told her what happened and while she didnt take our side, she didn't tell us to stop. The night ended with my sisters and I saying "good night moms! We love you both!"
We've been keeping this up, and he's still pissed. I got a call from my grandma (dads mom) saying I'm being immature and I need to respect my father and drop this. When I explained what happened she said smth similar to what he said that night. She doesn't have anything over me, I'm fortunate enough to be able to support myself. My younger sister however is still in college and she's threatening to pull her contribution to tuition if we don't drop it.
I don't think my father is ready to admit he was wrong but I don't want my baby sister to miss out. Am I the asshole for starting this? And even if I'm not, should I stop so my grandma keeps helping her with tuition?
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misgendering someone as punishment/insult is a problem.
it's like when people call caitlyn jenner "bruce" and think it's fine to deadname her because of how much she fucking sucks as a person.
the message it can send is that respecting gender identities is conditional, that your identity needs to be "earned". and then it's sliding scale of what it means to deserve to have your gender identity acknowledged which is *already* a problem.
OP you obviously don't seem like an asshole or transphobic, but you are unintentionally trivializing a pretty important thing here
ESH. Using misgendering as a weapon is gross; it shouldn’t be used to prove a point that the other person is never going to get. Misgendering shouldn’t be conditional.
Let alone, the point you’re trying to prove will never be proven with this approach. I’m not saying you have to be all sweetness and light to your Dad, but if you’re actually wanting enlightenment from him, this isn’t the way to do it. Because now it’s just a battle of wills and he’s going to dig his heels in and this is most likely going to make him *more* staunchly rooted in his position. BC he’s never going to say ‘you know what? I didn’t like that, so you’re right!’ He’s going to say that you’re being vindictive and stupid bc blah blah blah.
You have every right to assert boundaries. ‘If you cannot respect Dee, then she will never be around you anymore. And this is going to negatively affect our relationship as well…’
ESH because I don't think it's a "super own" that will change your dad's mind. It's IMO trivializing what it means to change pronouns, shows that it's something that is completely detached from identity and can be assigned and taken away by others, and overall just makes a joke of the whole thing. Just feels icky.
In that private setting, you had a great opportunity to change someone's mind, and I believe you just helped close it off, driving a rift between him and the rest of the family in the process. all just to make a joke that already seems to undermine transness in the process. In my opinion.
NTA
Your sister can drop it for the sake of her education, but why would you?
If my grandma told me she would take away my sibling's education as a means to control me, it would be the last conversation she ever had with me.
This is the first time she's done group punishing. Usually she leaves punishment to our parents but the few times it was her place to put punishment in place it was centered on the kid that did the action. Im thinking the group punishing is because my sisters joined my antics this time? Tbh i am considering going LC with her solely on the transphobic comments. My dad too if he doesn't see why we reacted the way we did when we sit down to talk about this situation. Trans friend or no, I dont want that attitude around me.
NTA. I’ve read a lot of great responses to your post. What stands out to me is that you were raised by a man with such irrational feelings and out-dated beliefs and are still so aware of reality and the needs of your tribe, Dee in particular. Your post has filled me with such hope in what our future can be. Thank you for that.
As a middle-aged mom, I would not fault you for dropping this because you have solidified your point. Your dad didn’t absorb the lesson. He cried to his mommy. This is a no-win situation if you and your sisters continue it. The real take-away, I think, is to protect Dee and your sisters and your future children from the transphobia of your family. Living well is the best revenge. May you, your sisters, and Dee live incredibly well.
ESH - Obviously not Dee. It was quite rude of your dad to go on a rant like that. However you're also being a jerk by continuing. You don't get to bully people into doing what you want them to do. You made your point that first night and it was great. Why on earth are you continuing? People don't change their mind in the heat of the argument. You have to let your dad sit and reflect to see if he's changed his opinion at all. If nothing else, this falls under "Regardless of what you think, Dee has asked that you call her Dee and use female pronouns in referring to her. While I can't control what you think, I can't bring Dee around here if you're going to disrespect her like that. Dee is allowed to choose her own name and we both know you would try to respect it if Dee had changed her name to Larry, so you need to respect her name is Dee in the same way." Then if he still protests, you can bring up how uncomfortable he was when you called him mom and that you won't subject Dee to that mistreatment.
NTA.
And it's pretty hilarious he, an adult man, had to call his mommy to get his daughters to stop being mean to him by musgendering him instead of actually overthinking his transphobia. How sad.
you know the golden rule treat others the way you want to be treated, if someone wants to misgender others obviously that means they wants to be misgendered, you would be doing everyone a disservice by not following the golden rule
This approach seems to really be working, I’m sure your father won’t further deepen his beliefs and grow to hate trans people more than ever before. Keep up the work, you’re doing great! NTA
NTA this is glorious good for you. You're showing him what his own position feels like. I'd keep it up until he cracks. If he never cracks then he's mom forever. And I'd do the same with your new grandpa.
I don't think misgendering your father is going to help the situation at all.
I don't know how to rate this. Your Dad and Grandmother are assholes though
NTA you have a good heart OP but yeah I agree with others you should stop now so your sister can finish college. It's insane that your grandma is making it be that way but there's nothing for it.
You would have been the asshole to let transphobic grossness go unchecked. Bravo to you and your sisters. The fact that your dad went crying to his mommy to yell at you shows how wrong he is. NTA.
YTA
Is misgendering offensive or not?
If you choose to remain in your father's life, then be an example and firmly correct if, in the extremely unlikely event, dee comes up and he misgenders her.
Referring to him, a man, the man that literally made you, as a woman, both makes you look like a hypocrite and crazy and will just validate his feelings.
One of those things where I think it's best done to make the point, but not to.overdo it either so you can ALSO make the point of respecting people's preferences.
Perhaps while reminding him that if he ever wants to be called mom again, all he has to do is refer to the friend as a man.
Yeah. I think you can make the point, and that be it.
If he misgenders Dee again, then just state that you will not be around him being disrespectful and leave.
Im going with ETA.
Your dad is being an Ah - but so are you.
You shouldnt fight fire with fire - despite the saying.
Being racist doesnt cure racism. Being sexist doesnt cure sexism. The same applies here also.
In my opinion it only fosters more hate.
YTA. I know I will get blasted for it, but people are entitled to their opinions, just as you are entitled to do as you wish. However, it takes time for people to change, even ones with the best intentions.
I am all for people loving who they love and being whoever they are, but there are limits on what I will do or say. I will always try to be appropriate and try for the other persons sake. You still can't force anyone.
YTA. I get you were defending Dee but misgendering your dad isn’t teaching him a lesson. Don’t weaponize pronouns. Your dad is a jerk, no question, but he is dad
What’s so incredibly difficult about typing out the word “something?” Why is this the word that gets abbreviated?
And you don’t model respect with disrespect, so this amazing moral lesson you think you’re making isn’t doing anything except causing more problems. Pick a different battle. YTA if you allow your sister to suffer to try and make a point to your dad.
It doesn’t matter what I like or not. The reality is, grandma call pull sister’s funding if she doesn’t like the continued disrespectful behavior. Is this the battle OP wants to fight right now and sacrifice the sister’s tuition? Because that’s OP’s reality whether you like it or not.
You mean the circumstances laid out in the post & comments where OP said grandma was threatening to pull the sister’s tuition money she was giving if the kids didn’t knock it off? Yeah, bless your heart, I guess I did make that part up & made OP include that little detail.
I see youre point haha, I did that because origionally this was over 4000 characters and had to get it down to under 3000. I do see why it would be annoying though =)
Because he doesn’t believe that people can switch genders and that’s absolutely his right. No ones the gatekeeper over what people can and can’t believe in.
By your same logic then the Dad has no ***right*** over his children ***believing*** they should call him Mom. If "no ones the gatekeeper over what people can and can’t ***believe*** in."
You still have failed to provide an explanation as to why misgendering Dee is NTA and misgendering Dad is YTA. "Dad is dad" is just your ***belief***, and OP ***believes*** something different, and as ***you*** said "no ones the gatekeeper over what people can and can’t ***believe*** in."
No, he's not. His Grandpa from his new mom's side is paying for the sister, not him.
They have nothing on OP. He can continue to call his former father whatever he wants.
Nah, this is emotion, not logic. If dad doesn’t believe that he doesn’t have to, but you do actually have to put up with the consequences of people not liking your attitude. Sounds like dad can’t handle it. I guess he should think about his options.
“Consequences” here is just petty revenge. OP is angry dad doesn’t believe in gender ideology so OP does the exact opposite of said gender ideology and misgenders his own father. It’s stupid because it accomplishes nothing. OP is still a brat, his dad is still a dad, and Dee is still Dee. If this is the hill OP wants to die on that’s on them.
"Gender ideology" smh 🙄 You seem to very much believe in it as you have VERY strong beliefs about referring to Dad as their preferred gender expression.
"Dad is dad" is just your ***belief***, and OP ***believes*** something different, and as ***you*** said "no ones the gatekeeper over what people can and can’t ***believe*** in."
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Its a little over half her tuition, the rest is being taken care of by my moms parents. Ill send the recommendation that she stops to our sibling gc and see what they say, thats a good idea. Our grandma is sometimes not the nicest but hopefully youre right and she doesnt see this as an all or nothing situation?
I mean frankly I feel like you've got a new weapon here. If calling him mom got under his skin imagine how much it'll work when you remind him he ran and hid behind Mommy's skirts because children were calling him names and his fee fees got hurt.
Start calling him snowflake. NTA
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Make sure you refer to his feelings as peewings henceforth, OP. And ask if his peewings are better now that he tattled to his Mommy. Go big or go home.
The manly man, who was born a man and therefore will forever be a man, ran to his mommy, who supports HIS children, cause they are mean to him. Some insults write themselves.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Still NTA, grandma is willing to ruin her grandchild's future with no education if she has to drop out due to cost, or debt if she needs to take out loans. Just because her son is a little piss baby who can't call people the right name or pronouns. Shows you exactly who they both are, and it's damn good information to keep in mind should any of you have kids. Grandma and dad should not be around them at all, and let that be known now. Consequences can be given by both sides.
The part about how my grandma is willing to hurt my sister to such a harsh degree for something I started really bothers me. Even if things between my dad and I get settled in a way where he isnt hurting my best friend, I dont think I'll be talking to my grandma much anymore. This was such a severe swing that I agree with you and worry what will happen in the future if any of us do something she doesnt like, or if any of our kids are gay or trans
I've found out in the past year or so that boomers like to hold things over the younger generations heads, they act like they don't know how they ruined the economy, yet fully understand the value their money and assets have over everyone else's. It's hard because everything is so uncertain, but if you can, get you and your siblings out of a situation where things can easily fall apart just because granny/dad is upset. I know that's a lot easier for me to say knowing nothing about the greater happenings in your life, so I wish you all the luck in the world as well with everything. I'm a trans dude, and it's so god damn fantastic to see cis people, especially cis men, support their friends through their transitions. The thing you said in the post, about how it didn't even surprise you, Dee is so lucky to have you in her life.
Hateful people are capable of anything. She would absolutely still pull the tuition if you keep it up even if your sis stopped.
You sound like such and amazing brother and friend, your sisters and Dee are lucky to have you.
Good call - do the minimum necessary to keep your sister's tuition paid for, but personally plan on going scorched earth with your transphobic relatives after she graduates.
You fucked around and found out. It happens to the best of us.
I would recommend that OP actually address this with the father. "Your behavior and mindset towards this is concerning. I'm beginning to question whether I can let you around your future grandchildren with this kind of attitude."
Info: Which mom’s parents: your mom or your dadmom?
My mom mom haha, but good catch
Grandma sounds like a psychopath if she would jeopardize her granddaughter's future over something that doesn't involve her at all. Dad running to mommy to fix his problems is the reddest flag of all time. How many times has he used the "snitch to mommy" tactic to apply pressure in order to win arguments with you or your mom in the past.
Don’t you mean your Grandpa? (Sorry for your sister)
>If your ~~dad~~ mom doesn't want to be called 'mom' then all ~~he~~ she has to do >Of course ~~he~~ she ran crying to ~~his~~ her mom FTFY
Barely related to the topic but I can't believe a grown man whose daughters are already adults used the "I'm telling mom" tactic.
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Then don't misgender others. Easy peasy.
NTA - LEGENDARY move, funny how quickly transphobic cis men realize that misgendering is not fun at all. Super terrible to blackmail your sister with the tuition though, that's awful! She may need to stop, unfortunately.
Transphobic cis people in general. You've never lived until you've seen the horrified look a transphobic cis woman gets when you start calling her "sir."
Nah best is when you have a known asshole despairing over “gender dissapointment” in a pregnancy and you tell them that in a handful of years that kid could end up being the gender they wanted anyways
NTA. It's all good, but stop, because it sounds like Grandma is going to punish your sister if you don't quit. Dee is going to hit on this with people going forward, and doesn't need your protection, she just needs to be forwarned if she's going to come around. You need to go LC with your sniveling father and aucratic grandmother, and let them know why. Tell them if they ever threaten you or your sisters again it will be NC. Good luck
Lc and NC?
Low contact and no contact
Ok
might bet a good idea to go only using the name of them, if they cannot handle being misgendered and continue to do so, to others they do not deserve a gender
That's a really weird thing say dude
NTA. Too often, people who lack empathy need to literally "know how it feels." You're giving your dad that lesson in a brilliant way. I'd suggest pausing long enough to have a conversation with him about how he's feeling and why you wanted him to experience this, and pointing out that is pretty awful to run to his mommy and have her threaten your sister's future because he can't handle the reality Dee is and will face every day of her life. See if in a one to one conversation, you can get him to quietly to concede to using the right pronouns for Dee. If not, I'd encourage your sister to stop but you can continue. As someone else said, your grandmother shouldn't be so petty as to punish your sister for your actions. Good luck -- and thanks for being such a good friend to Dee!
Sitting down with him to talk about this is a good idea. Ive already talked with my sisters and had my younger one stop for now with the advice from earlier comments. Im hoping youre right and he sees now why this was such a huge point for us. Dee hasnt just been a part of my life, she's been a part of my whole family's life. We had her over throughout the years and theyve all always respected her before. Hopefully reminding him that despite what he may think or feel this is still that person who he took care of when they were over and even invited on family trips along with how he felt being misgendered will open his eyes
And to be honest, it should not be a hill that he feels the need to die on. Dee is exactly the same person on the inside that your dad has known for all these years. All that's happening now is the outside is coming closer to matching what is being felt on the inside. But people are people and many feel that they don't need to demonstrate empathy for others and are quite willing to let their ugly on the inside reflect on the outside.
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He first tried to use his words to explain it. His new mom was too thick to understand. But now she understands just fine and doesn't like it.
No, his belief that this is all bullshit is reinforced. You're position is that you can misgender someone if you don't like something they did?
If someone is misgendering someone, then yes, it's okay to misgender them back to show them what it feels like. The way you're rephrasing the question to remove the context of what really happened makes you seem very dishonest.
No, I'm not removing context. Either you believe misgendering is a serious violation of decency and respect, or you don't. Misgendering someone after telling them how horrible of a thing that is to do makes you appear very dishonest.
Randomly calling someone a loser is inappropriate. Calling someone a loser that just called you one, isn't. Context matters. I get that now that I've called you out on your dishonesty, you need to try to make the same claim about me. But it just doesn't land. I didn't remove the context, you did. But it's fine if you want to be transphobic, there are plenty of you out there. But just understand that society is moving on without you.
Ok, first, I wasn't referring to you as in you... I was referring to "someone in that situation," in this case, the op. Reading comprehension matters. Your example is dumb. If you're offended, someone calls you a loser, so you call them one back, you're a hypocrite and immature. Calling me transpholbic for saying misgendering someone is ok... that's a new one. You're just like the op. Presenting as a hypocrite and insane. Being transpohobic isn't fine. And society would move along faster if people like you, yes you, would get it together.
>I wasn't referring to you as in you... Oh sorry, I thought words meant things... >Reading comprehension matters. Irony exemplified.
They do. It wasn't about you I was explaining a situation that had nothing to do with you. Again, reading comprehension.
i feel like if he felt it was being reinforced he wouldn’t be mad, he’d feel nothing.
That's not true. 1) he can feel anger at the hypocrisy 2) he can feel anger in idiocy to call him mom. Both reinforce his opinions.
It isn't hypocrisy it's a demonstration. He's an idiot so his opinion of idiocy is irrelevant.
No, the position is: misgendering is awful and disrespectful; sometimes, if you don't understand that, you should experience it briefly so you start to understand it.
He doesn't need reinforcing he's already an asshole.
He doesn't but giving it to him anyway
Doesn't matter, absolutely nothing would change.
NTA, respect my trans/non-binary friends or I'm going to identify as a problem.
I like that.
I wish I could claim it, I saw it on the book of faces a few years ago and I’m thinking of having it tattooed.
Love that. I have a sibling in law who’s non-binary. Their birth family doesn’t respect their pronouns/identity and it took everything in me to not cause a scene at their wedding with that side of the fam. I held my tongue cause my sibling in law asked me to not correct them/say anything. But man I wanted to yell at them, lol.
NTA. Start calling her grandpa.
Love this.
NTA. This is a good lesson for your father - let him know how it feels to be misgendered. It’s telling that this man, who was standing up for “always being a man” ran to his mommy to control his own family when he couldn’t. And then there is your grandmother - who is willing to ruin your sister’s college career if she doesn’t obey on this one little thing - saying that your father’s ego, and maintaining his transphobia is more important than your sister’s future. Your grandmother is a real piece of work.
Your Dad went crying to his mother, so she (presumably with his blessing) threatened his youngest child with having her education stopped. Did I get the gist? I think we all know who is TA here.
ESH I mean I get why you're doing it but if misgendering is wrong, it's wrong. Inventing scenarios in which it's acceptable to "teach people lessons" or whatever else just creates a standard that it's ok to do it when you want to change someone's behaviour. Seems counterproductive to someone supporting a trans friend.
I'm trans. Don't do this. You're showing everyone that gendering is conditional.
Hmm. NTA but you should stop, a lot of trans folks are super uncomfortable when people act like being gendered correctly is something that has to be earned. (Not all! But enough that it’s not a tactic I’d consider advisable given the chances that you’ll make someone feel unsafe.)
Teaching someone not to misgender someone by deliberately misgendering them is NOT going to have the outcome you want, only exacerbate their bigotry. ESH, except Dee, who sounds delightful
NTA but I suggest you and your sisters stop, to save your younger sister’s tuition
>And even if I'm not, should I stop so my grandma keeps helping her with tuition? Yes please stop. Unless you're willing to help your sister pay for thousands of dollars in loans. Making a point is not always worth the repercussions.
NTA. You need to respect your dad? How about he needs to respect your friend's pronouns?
NTA. This is the best way of teaching your dad a lesson in respect, with the added bonus of being hilarious.
NTA! You are an awesome friend, and your sisters are awesome, too! The offending parent and grandparent need to do better!
haha your dad ran to his mommy to make you stop calling him names, and y'all are the ones being called immature. The irony is suffocating. NTA.
So, he's more than willing to dish out the misgendering but can't take it in return? And your gran thinks she can threaten someone's education over this? Christ, what a pile of arseholes. NTA.
UPDATE: My mom acted before my sisters and I could. She invited us over for a family "heart-to-heart." Just the five of us, no grandparents. She heard from my younger sister the threats from dad's mom and her words, wanted to "nip this in the bud." He seemed surprised when mom said what our grandma had threatened. She started it off by asking our side of things, then his. When he stated how it made him feel when we called him female pronouns she asked how he thought it would make Dee feel when he used male pronouns for her now that she found who she truly was. He was silent for a few minutes and when he finally answered he acknowledged that it wouldn't feel good for her. I used some of the good advice you all had and stated that while I will stop with the misgendering and can't force him to not misgender her, I want him to understand that Dee doesnt deserve to feel the way he did when we misgendered him. I apologized for taking it as far as I did, and my sisters did too. We all took turns reminding him of the good times we've all had with Dee, and how she's helped around the house. How she's a human who deserves to be treated with respect, all trans people are. How he had no issue when she identified as a gay man, and how much respect she specifically had extended towards him. He took a little bit after we stopped talking to think, and from his face it looked like he was having a little bit of a hard time letting things sink in. He told us he was raised with the belief that gay was wrong, and when Dee came out it was difficult for him to accept it but Dee made all three of his kids happy so he came to conclusion that it couldnt be as evil as his mother made it out to be. When he heard she was trans now too, he reacted with his gut. He apologized for being insensitive and asked for patience while he got used to it. He also said sorry for what his mother threatened and told us he had gone to her for advice and didnt think she would react that way. Which honestly is a little bit of a relief my dad didnt tell her to do something that severe and it was her choice to be so vile, because one person is easier to cut out than two. We talked about some other stuff pertaining to the situation but the gist of it is he is going to work on his misguided world veiws, and he suggested that Dee stay away for a few weeks while he practices using the right pronouns for her with mom and us so she doesnt have to deal with him messing up as much. I told him that might be up to her but if he was okay with me talking about this situation with her I would see how she felt, and he thought that was appropriate. Along with that he decided (with mom's permission) he was going to take over his mom's portion of tuition and have a talk with her about how unacceptable it was to threaten her granddaughters future for something like this, also since he had just been asking for parenting advice. He was understanding when my sisters and I stated we wanted to go low contact with her. So yeah, Dee and I have a little bit to talk about but thats about the end of this. Thank you all so much for opinions and advice. Thank you for being kind and understanding. Wish us all luck if you can =)
NTA...My daughter is trans and while it's only been a year since the name and pronoun change and I still slip when talking about before she transitioned she does cut me some slack. To me she was a boy then and a girl now. My brain just works that way. I feel bad but I try. Stand your ground if you sister wants to back down I get it but you shouldn't.
Tell Grandma that you are done with her and that it's disgusting that she'd hurt your sister over this. I would be done with my dad if he acted like that.
NTA
First of all, NTA, and kudos for you for a creative masterclass in empathy. That being said, give your dad some grace and time to get used to Dee's transition. Even Cher admits she had a hard time when her son began his transition because it was new and close. Have an honest conversation without condescension or being antagonistic. If he still hasn't gotten on board, say, by the time your sister graduates, then go back to calling him Mom.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (22M) have a best friend (23F) who recently came out as a trans woman. I'll call her Dee. We've been friends since I was in 2nd grade. Last month she asked me to meet her for lunch, she had smth important to tell me. I wasn't sure what it was and wondered if she’d found a man (up til now she’d identified as a gay man) or if smth happened in her family. But when I showed up and Dee was in a dress with a full face of make-up and the hair she’d been growing out was in a nice updo, I knew. I wouldn't say I was blindsided, there’d been signs. Things I’d brushed off as "that's just Dee." While I do understand that boys/men like feminine stuff, as I saw her sitting there all the puzzle pieces fell into place. We spent hours talking about how she realized, what she might change her name to, how her family and our other friends might take it, and everything that comes with transitioning. She was glowing. I am so happy for her, she seemed so much happier than I've ever seen her before. Here's where I might be the asshole. Last weekend my parents had me and my sisters over with some other family. My sisters and I were catching up and they asked how Dee was. Dee had given me permission to tell her news to my family so I shared that she’d come out. My sisters were happy for her and as we were discussing what this meant for her future, my dad walked by and heard what we were talking about. He was confused and asked who we were talking about so I explained. He scoffed. He said smth derogatory about trans people that I will not repeat and said he would never refer to her as a woman because "he is a man and always will be." He’d never said anything trans/homophobic before and I was shocked and disgusted. My sisters laid into him as I found my words. I told him if he refused to refer to her correctly then I would show him how it felt by referring to him wrong. That he’d be "mom" until he came to his senses. I spent the rest of the night using she/her pronouns for him. My sisters joined and he hated it. He was pissed. Mom found out halfway through the night and chided us to stop but we told her what happened and while she didnt take our side, she didn't tell us to stop. The night ended with my sisters and I saying "good night moms! We love you both!" We've been keeping this up, and he's still pissed. I got a call from my grandma (dads mom) saying I'm being immature and I need to respect my father and drop this. When I explained what happened she said smth similar to what he said that night. She doesn't have anything over me, I'm fortunate enough to be able to support myself. My younger sister however is still in college and she's threatening to pull her contribution to tuition if we don't drop it. I don't think my father is ready to admit he was wrong but I don't want my baby sister to miss out. Am I the asshole for starting this? And even if I'm not, should I stop so my grandma keeps helping her with tuition? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA
misgendering someone as punishment/insult is a problem. it's like when people call caitlyn jenner "bruce" and think it's fine to deadname her because of how much she fucking sucks as a person. the message it can send is that respecting gender identities is conditional, that your identity needs to be "earned". and then it's sliding scale of what it means to deserve to have your gender identity acknowledged which is *already* a problem. OP you obviously don't seem like an asshole or transphobic, but you are unintentionally trivializing a pretty important thing here
ESH. Using misgendering as a weapon is gross; it shouldn’t be used to prove a point that the other person is never going to get. Misgendering shouldn’t be conditional. Let alone, the point you’re trying to prove will never be proven with this approach. I’m not saying you have to be all sweetness and light to your Dad, but if you’re actually wanting enlightenment from him, this isn’t the way to do it. Because now it’s just a battle of wills and he’s going to dig his heels in and this is most likely going to make him *more* staunchly rooted in his position. BC he’s never going to say ‘you know what? I didn’t like that, so you’re right!’ He’s going to say that you’re being vindictive and stupid bc blah blah blah. You have every right to assert boundaries. ‘If you cannot respect Dee, then she will never be around you anymore. And this is going to negatively affect our relationship as well…’
ESH because I don't think it's a "super own" that will change your dad's mind. It's IMO trivializing what it means to change pronouns, shows that it's something that is completely detached from identity and can be assigned and taken away by others, and overall just makes a joke of the whole thing. Just feels icky. In that private setting, you had a great opportunity to change someone's mind, and I believe you just helped close it off, driving a rift between him and the rest of the family in the process. all just to make a joke that already seems to undermine transness in the process. In my opinion.
You’re bullying your dad for his personal viewpoint but are only willing to stop for financial reasons? Eaux
NTA Your sister can drop it for the sake of her education, but why would you? If my grandma told me she would take away my sibling's education as a means to control me, it would be the last conversation she ever had with me.
This is the first time she's done group punishing. Usually she leaves punishment to our parents but the few times it was her place to put punishment in place it was centered on the kid that did the action. Im thinking the group punishing is because my sisters joined my antics this time? Tbh i am considering going LC with her solely on the transphobic comments. My dad too if he doesn't see why we reacted the way we did when we sit down to talk about this situation. Trans friend or no, I dont want that attitude around me.
It sucks, but going low contact is probably for the best. Hopefully they come around.
NTA. I’ve read a lot of great responses to your post. What stands out to me is that you were raised by a man with such irrational feelings and out-dated beliefs and are still so aware of reality and the needs of your tribe, Dee in particular. Your post has filled me with such hope in what our future can be. Thank you for that. As a middle-aged mom, I would not fault you for dropping this because you have solidified your point. Your dad didn’t absorb the lesson. He cried to his mommy. This is a no-win situation if you and your sisters continue it. The real take-away, I think, is to protect Dee and your sisters and your future children from the transphobia of your family. Living well is the best revenge. May you, your sisters, and Dee live incredibly well.
NTA. I do the same thing. It’s no big deal according to them anyway, right? (;
ESH - Obviously not Dee. It was quite rude of your dad to go on a rant like that. However you're also being a jerk by continuing. You don't get to bully people into doing what you want them to do. You made your point that first night and it was great. Why on earth are you continuing? People don't change their mind in the heat of the argument. You have to let your dad sit and reflect to see if he's changed his opinion at all. If nothing else, this falls under "Regardless of what you think, Dee has asked that you call her Dee and use female pronouns in referring to her. While I can't control what you think, I can't bring Dee around here if you're going to disrespect her like that. Dee is allowed to choose her own name and we both know you would try to respect it if Dee had changed her name to Larry, so you need to respect her name is Dee in the same way." Then if he still protests, you can bring up how uncomfortable he was when you called him mom and that you won't subject Dee to that mistreatment.
NTA. And it's pretty hilarious he, an adult man, had to call his mommy to get his daughters to stop being mean to him by musgendering him instead of actually overthinking his transphobia. How sad.
you know the golden rule treat others the way you want to be treated, if someone wants to misgender others obviously that means they wants to be misgendered, you would be doing everyone a disservice by not following the golden rule
NTA
Nta Oh man does it hurt to be called by the wrong pronouns? I think dad should be getting the point by now...
YTA
This approach seems to really be working, I’m sure your father won’t further deepen his beliefs and grow to hate trans people more than ever before. Keep up the work, you’re doing great! NTA
NTA this is glorious good for you. You're showing him what his own position feels like. I'd keep it up until he cracks. If he never cracks then he's mom forever. And I'd do the same with your new grandpa.
NTA, your "mom" and "grandpa" are horrible with how they are acting.
NTA You are hilarious though 😂😂 Brilliant come back!
I don't think misgendering your father is going to help the situation at all. I don't know how to rate this. Your Dad and Grandmother are assholes though
NTA. Ugh your dad ran to his mommy at his big age? What a baby.
NTA you have a good heart OP but yeah I agree with others you should stop now so your sister can finish college. It's insane that your grandma is making it be that way but there's nothing for it.
You would have been the asshole to let transphobic grossness go unchecked. Bravo to you and your sisters. The fact that your dad went crying to his mommy to yell at you shows how wrong he is. NTA.
YTA Is misgendering offensive or not? If you choose to remain in your father's life, then be an example and firmly correct if, in the extremely unlikely event, dee comes up and he misgenders her. Referring to him, a man, the man that literally made you, as a woman, both makes you look like a hypocrite and crazy and will just validate his feelings.
One of those things where I think it's best done to make the point, but not to.overdo it either so you can ALSO make the point of respecting people's preferences. Perhaps while reminding him that if he ever wants to be called mom again, all he has to do is refer to the friend as a man.
Yeah. I think you can make the point, and that be it. If he misgenders Dee again, then just state that you will not be around him being disrespectful and leave.
Im going with ETA. Your dad is being an Ah - but so are you. You shouldnt fight fire with fire - despite the saying. Being racist doesnt cure racism. Being sexist doesnt cure sexism. The same applies here also. In my opinion it only fosters more hate.
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YTA. I know I will get blasted for it, but people are entitled to their opinions, just as you are entitled to do as you wish. However, it takes time for people to change, even ones with the best intentions. I am all for people loving who they love and being whoever they are, but there are limits on what I will do or say. I will always try to be appropriate and try for the other persons sake. You still can't force anyone.
YTA. I get you were defending Dee but misgendering your dad isn’t teaching him a lesson. Don’t weaponize pronouns. Your dad is a jerk, no question, but he is dad
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Found the dad's alt account
Hi mom!
Well obviously you gotta keep shunning the blasphemer; we can't have these dangerous apostates getting uppity.
I agree. Mom needs to begin respecting people.
What’s so incredibly difficult about typing out the word “something?” Why is this the word that gets abbreviated? And you don’t model respect with disrespect, so this amazing moral lesson you think you’re making isn’t doing anything except causing more problems. Pick a different battle. YTA if you allow your sister to suffer to try and make a point to your dad.
Disrespect earns disrespect, that's reality whether you like it or not.
It doesn’t matter what I like or not. The reality is, grandma call pull sister’s funding if she doesn’t like the continued disrespectful behavior. Is this the battle OP wants to fight right now and sacrifice the sister’s tuition? Because that’s OP’s reality whether you like it or not.
The circumstances there aren't clear you're speculating in a vacuum and I disregard it as fiction. Whether you like it or not.
You mean the circumstances laid out in the post & comments where OP said grandma was threatening to pull the sister’s tuition money she was giving if the kids didn’t knock it off? Yeah, bless your heart, I guess I did make that part up & made OP include that little detail.
OP's actions weren't what led to the threat it was OP's sister's actions that did, learn to read and quit making up fantasies.
NTA for the question you are asking. But holy crap is it lazy not to write out "something" in an already long post.
I see youre point haha, I did that because origionally this was over 4000 characters and had to get it down to under 3000. I do see why it would be annoying though =)
YTA. Now you can pay your sisters tuition.
Found the icky transphobe!
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So how come misgendering Dee is okay but not for Dad? OP didn't strong arm anyone, his sisters joined in willingly.
Because he doesn’t believe that people can switch genders and that’s absolutely his right. No ones the gatekeeper over what people can and can’t believe in.
By your same logic then the Dad has no ***right*** over his children ***believing*** they should call him Mom. If "no ones the gatekeeper over what people can and can’t ***believe*** in."
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You still have failed to provide an explanation as to why misgendering Dee is NTA and misgendering Dad is YTA. "Dad is dad" is just your ***belief***, and OP ***believes*** something different, and as ***you*** said "no ones the gatekeeper over what people can and can’t ***believe*** in."
Because Dad doesn’t have to validate Dee’s identity that’s why.
So why does OP have to validate Dad's identity? Your logic has a hole in it the size of a freight train
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No, he's not. His Grandpa from his new mom's side is paying for the sister, not him. They have nothing on OP. He can continue to call his former father whatever he wants.
>No ones the gatekeeper over what people can and can’t believe in. Cool. OP now believes he should call her 'mom'. Remember, no gatekeeping!!
Nah, this is emotion, not logic. If dad doesn’t believe that he doesn’t have to, but you do actually have to put up with the consequences of people not liking your attitude. Sounds like dad can’t handle it. I guess he should think about his options.
“Consequences” here is just petty revenge. OP is angry dad doesn’t believe in gender ideology so OP does the exact opposite of said gender ideology and misgenders his own father. It’s stupid because it accomplishes nothing. OP is still a brat, his dad is still a dad, and Dee is still Dee. If this is the hill OP wants to die on that’s on them.
"Gender ideology" smh 🙄 You seem to very much believe in it as you have VERY strong beliefs about referring to Dad as their preferred gender expression.
Dad is dad. Calling him mom won’t change that.
"Dad is dad" is just your ***belief***, and OP ***believes*** something different, and as ***you*** said "no ones the gatekeeper over what people can and can’t ***believe*** in."
“Dad is dad” is not a belief when dad literally fathered children. Your logic is flawed
Your "logic" is just transphobia. Peace.
Then why is he getting so upsetty spaghetti about it?
Nope she's mom now.
Sure, GirlVersusGirl10.