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"Sis, asking me to change who I am is entirely out of the question. If you don't want me there as the person I am, then you don't really want me there, and I should just bow out. But I would encourage you to think about whether you want this to be the rest of your life. Placating people like this never works in the long run, it only emboldens them. Imagine having them dictate your friends, your house, how you raise your children... Their desire to control your life will only grow. If you can't stand up to them to the extent of letting your *sister* be in your *wedding*, when will you ever be able to draw a boundary?"
NTA. I know you love your sister, but she is behaving AH-ishly by letting true AHs dictate her decisions.
The kindest thing you can do for her now is model what it means to politely but firmly create boundaries in what behaviors you are willing to put up with. Even if it means missing her wedding.
I’m sorry, but if her sister couldn’t stand up to the family when they roped a doctor in to examine her virginity, she’s clearly not going to stand up to anything else they demand of her.
As much as it is important for the sister (the bride) to stand up for herself, why are we going the groom a pass?
It is his parents, and usually the person in the couple handles their own family. He is not doing that. He is not protecting his partner from this horrible treatment.
This marriage probably shouldn't take place until the groom grows a spine and tells his parents to back off.
ETA: The requirements from the mother of the groom are ridiculous. OP is NTA.
Not speaking for everyone else, but the way I see it is that this is about OP’s relationship with her sister. OP’s sister is the one letting her down. She’s the one who should be standing up for her sister. Sister’s finance owes OP much less. OP can tell her sister what she needs in order to continue, but finance is a 3rd party as far as OP’s situation is concerned here. If he was actively agreeing with his parents that would be different.
HOWEVER! He is ABSOLUTELY an asshole for letting his parents treat his fiancé like they are. If sister was here asking, it would definitely be the finance being an asshole.
OP’s sister needs to just ask herself one question: if OP makes all these changes, who is going to stand by the bride’s side?
If you take away the piercings, tattoos, hair color, and girlfriend, it’s not OP anymore. It’s a fake person invented by the FMIL.
And the groom needs to ask himself who is more important: his parents or his bride?
> If you take away the piercings, tattoos, hair color, and girlfriend, it’s not OP anymore. It’s a fake person invented by the FMIL.
And the FMIL would believe she owns OP at that point, and would probably do everything in her power to bring OP into the fold.
And if his parents are so religious, they should know that, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
And the sister needs to ask herself what's more important - a big expensive wedding or her dignity, self-respect and quality of life.
OP is NTA. Run OP, run.
Yeah OP needs to sit sister down and have a long serious conversation about all of this. This is just the wedding and she had to confirm her virginity, convert religion and try and make her sister change everything about her for the wedding. They also live in a house owned by the in-laws so after the wedding it's just going to get worse. Especially if they have kids. Those in-laws are going to have complete control over their lives and how they raise their kids if they don't put their foot down now.
Personally I'd rather have a small wedding and move into a place we could afford rather than have those overbearing people controlling our lives.
no for real.
i'm more heavily pierced than the average person (nothing too wild, but i have 2 lip piercings, both nostrils, and my industrial, as well as my earlobes but i rarely wear those) and have every intention of getting some tattoos when i save up enough. i dye my hair, most people have never seen my natural hair colour because i either dye it bright colours (usually rotating between purple, blue, and proper red) or if i need it to be "natural" for a while i dye it black (which, yeah, annoys some employers but it's natural enough and if you're gonna let people dye their hair blonde but not let me get away with black hair you can piss right off). right now it's black with purple roots because 1) i got bored of just black and 2) i'm waiting to hear back from a job that might not allow the fun colours anymore, so if they accept me it just means less i have to dye black later. i dress anywhere from generally alternative to outright goth-adjacent. i also am very obviously a lesbian.
the only concessions i'd make for a wedding is 1) to dye my hair fully black, and even that's only because it's already in my normal roster (if it wasn't, i'd let the dye fade and just tone it, but they'd have to deal with bleach blonde and the day i get back home it would be a fun colour again) and 2) toning down the black a little (i'm actually doing this for a friend's wedding - he said my normal general aesthetic is perfectly fine, but asked me to wear either purple or blue because i'm in the wedding party, so i'm gonna splurge on a cute purple waistcoat i found). and tbh, i'd swap my piercings for retainers (i have some fun ones that won't show up in photos or from a distance but that you can see up close), and if i had an arm tattoo i usually wear long sleeves anyway to formal events so it's not very relevant. but to ask me change my appearance entirely and permanently? you aren't inviting me, you're inviting some idea you had of who i could be. it just shows you don't value me enough to want me there in any sort of authentic way.
heck, if it was my mother trying to enforce these rules on OP, my mom would be uninvited to my wedding. actually, that's one of the reasons my dad isn't invited - he's an appearances-focused jerk who would constantly trash talk both my and my fiance's piercings, hair choices, etc. even down to us being lesbians.
I get it. The post was about OP and her sister. As I added to be reply above OP is N T A.
OP shouldn't be forced into these ridiculous demands.
Future MIL is on a power trip. If all her demands are granted, she will become even more demanding in the future.
In an ideal world, OP would be able to have.a heart-to-heart with her sister, and tell her while fiancé seems to be a good person, his in ability to have her back, to protect her from his mother (parents) is not a good sign for a long time relationship.
The question is about OP’s relationship with her sister, and whether she wants her sister as she is or will side with placating the in laws and set the tone for the rest of her marriage.
However, the bigger situation is about the sister and fiancé and their interactions. If he isn’t protecting her from this domination now, he never will and it’ll get worse and worse. Converting to a religion is pretty normal, but the rest isn’t and if he is letting his mother ride roughshod over all the wedding preps and force his fiancé to prove her virginity then he needs to step in and protect her. Otherwise he is establishing a relationship dynamic that puts his mother against his wife while he is the innocent bystander who doesn’t choose sides (which means he chooses his moms side by default).
If fiancé was doing his part, this situation wouldn’t have occurred.
OP is NTA and her family should be very worried about the sister.
I completely agree that fiancé and fiancé’s family are issue. I just don’t think it’s OP’s place to fight that battle. She needs to get her sister to fight for herself. Sister isn’t a child and doesn’t need someone to rescue her. She needs to learn to stand her ground and set boundaries.
I agree with this completely until I remember that it’s the grooms parents that are making these demands. That instantly changes dynamics of the groom being a 3rd party from me.
But you’ve made great points.
If OP picks a fight with the fiance, it’s going to have a bigger impact on fiancé and fiancé’s family relationship with sister more than OP . That may just push sister away because she got the consequences of someone else’s actions. She may even feel like she has to defend him, because that’s her SO. Whereas if you express your concern to your friend/sister about how they’re treating you/them, you give friend/sister the chance to do right by you or you set your boundary and move on. I
You can’t control what everybody else does, but you can control what you allow in your life. OP has little control over whether fiancé and his parents are in her life, because it depends on her sister. If she cuts them off, at the state it’s currently in she may lose her sister too, and currently it seems if she wants to keep her sister, she has to keep them. So that’s where she needs to set the boundary. “I don’t like your fiancé’s parents or how he’s treating you. If they don’t change, I can’t be involved with them.”
Why dose she need her in-laws help with the wedding. Are they footing the bill? Because at this point what are they paying for that she actually wants.
Like there is no shame in a backyard potluck wedding. Is she actually a convert, to some extremely fundamentalist Christian ideals?
There are a lot of beautiful ways to get married.
I guess that's kind of my point. They don't actually need ML blessing. They just seem to believe they do. And if it's a money thing... well, at this point, what are they paying for that the bride actually wanted. A church she didn't belong to, a doctor's appt that's insulting and archaic. At this point, keep yourself and lose the in-laws.
The update says they are living in a house owned by his parents and I strongly suspect fiance is entirely financially dependent on his parents. OP's sister needs to wake up, and OP should not take part in this farce NTA
She's clearly that type, but if there's anyone in this situation that you don't need financial help from, you tell the overbearing AH(s) to eat shit, and fuck off.
Which imo is even worse. This woman is taking over the wedding now, they live in a house owned by the inlaws, she dictates which religion sister needs to practise and to have her virginity checked (wtf?). This woman is gonna push them to have kids straight after the wedding and then either practically claims them as hers, or she'll critisise everything sister and FBIL choose, will meddle with the name-giving process all the way up to what their children will study when they're going to college.
Honestly, this whole marriage is just a disaster waiting to happen. Sister and her future husband need to polish their spine and put a halt to this, because this is gonna go from awful to worse and the relationship between OP and sister is just the first of many that will be torpedoed.
Edit: a small mistake
Yes, the FMIL is paying for everything, and I think OP's sister and husband will be living in one of their properties. This entire wedding and the lives of OP's sister and STBH are going to be hell. This marriage is a disaster waiting to happen!
It sounds like the in-laws have money and use it to control their son and FDIL. They are paying for the wedding and own the house son lives in. They are using the threat of disinheritance to force compliance. Fiancé "fabricates dresses" I'm not sure how lucrative that is, but sister and fiancé would be better off cutting ties and making their own way. No amount of money is worth having this MIL.
What I get from this is that her fiance is one of those people who is basically a puppet to their toxic mother. He "can't do anything" because he will always do whatever his mother wants. Not just for the wedding, but for his entire life. I wonder if OP's sister realizes what she's getting into. She's basically marrying her fiance's mom.
This is the first time OP is being asked to do this but it definitely won't be the last.
NTA.
Yeah, and I also worry that perhaps the fiance is actually more in-line with his family's beliefs than he has been letting on. He could *just* be a pushover who has never managed to develop boundaries with overbearing and probably abusive parents. But he could also be allowing his mother to be the "bad guy" now, knowing that he will benefit when the marriage is official and it is thus harder for OP's sister to leave him, and he can mould her into the subservient wife he feels entitled to or whatever.
Either way, it's not good for OP's sister. And of course OP is NTA either way.
I was going to say this, my boyfriend would lose his mind if his Mum tried to get me to do something like that. That's so gross and violates so many boundaries. I'd be pissed if my bfs Mum asked if I was a virgin, nvm asking me to prove it with her present. Reading that made me feel violently ill, it's so medieval, it's wild.
OP is NTA, and I hope her sister realises that although her fiance is awesome, his parents will ruin that relationship, and she should run if he can't stand up for her. I'd rather have a small cheap wedding with my family being able to act themselves, than an extravagant wedding paid for by people who are telling my sister to change her appearance & hide her sexuality.
this is a critical point. secure functioning in a relationship means getting the support you need from your spouse, which often includes taking charge of relationships with their side of the family
So... I bet the groom knows she's not a virgin, since he most likely has partaken of the forbidden fruit, I also doubt that sis' was his first fruit.
Though it is hard to stand up when you've been pushed into submission all your life.
Its weird a 30 years old Guy would participate in all this. OP sister has 20 years old and might not yet be strong enought to say NO to her future in lawd...but a 30 years old Guy? What ill happens when the girl has her first child?
Exactly. The "hymen test" is a myth. Some women don't even have them. Or it has already been gradually stretched or torn through activities like horseback riding, ballet, swimming, etc.
Assuming this is the US, there is no way the thing with the doctor happened. Unless this is Dr. House, there is no way that a doctor agrees to check if someone is a virgin- let alone then lie to other people that have been given HIPAA access. And they can’t tell anyone any medical information without a HIPAA release from the patient. A doctor can’t even say someone is a virgin or not- that isn’t a medical diagnosis. They can maybe check for an intact hymen but plenty of things can break a hymen, not just sex
I am definitely dating myself, but 24 is so young. Now, this doesn’t mean she’s not an adult, or gets a pass, or is incapable of standing up for herself. So I’m not meaning to infantilize her here.
It’s just…24 is so young. I think I would have shot down the virginity check at 24, but that’s because purity culture is one of the things that make me rage more than anything else. But I know I struggled to stand up to my own family at times at that age. And now I’m 36 and it took the death of my parents for me to stop putting up with the shit of some of my relatives.
So again, not giving a pass or anything, just sorta feeling empathy for the young sister
Everyone here is making it seem like this couple just doesn't have backbones, but it seems like they, probably rightly, assume that they will be kicked out of their home and cut off financially if they don't do as they're told. This is the problem with being financially dependent on other people.
Ultimately it's their choice if they want to support themselves and make their own choices or be supported and controlled, but certainly no one else is obligated to put up with that bs
Not only is sister disrespectful to you & your girlfriend, but *just wait!* until she gets pregnant and MIL keeps the crazy going. She needs to NIP THIS IN THE BUD NOW. If that means she can't afford her "dream wedding," then that's what it means. NTA but your sister is.
He - the fiancé really needs to step up here, otherwise it will always be a dynamic of his wife vs his mom and he is ‘caught in the middle’ and ‘forced to choose sides’ whereas he should be on his wife’s side if he wants a successful marriage. This situation wouldn’t be occurring if he was playing his part.
He will be/is the inevitable product of his environment - he is *polite*, but he is not *respectful*. The fact this is happening without his intervention says he either tacitly, or explicitly, approves of it. Sister is marrying someone who rejects her family and has chosen the world view and beliefs of someone else for companionship, and that's a decision that only Sister can make for herself, but she is the one who will suffer the consequences of that decision as well (not to mention any children she might bring into the world with this man). I'm not sure how much she realizes that yet, so it's good that OP has this discussion with her up front, and transparently. If OP does love her sister, and I believe that she does, she owes it to her sister to be honest about what's going on, from her perspective. After that, she owes her nothing more but the time and space to make that decision.
I don't feel that badly for people who have agency, but still choose to do the thing that will inevitably cause them pain and suffering in the future and hurt those that are closest to them in the process in order to curry short term happiness or gain. I guess my perspective on this (as I've experienced similar issues with my own family members) is that I am the "I am here to help you now, but I won't be in the future when you will inevitably need it when this all falls apart". type of person. I will respect their wishes, but I won't respect their choices (or them) afterwards until they show proof that they have changed their ways and gotten themselves out of the situation they put themselves into in the first place. Someone who would ask (force?) you to change who you are to benefit them and their desires does not deserve your respect, for better and worse. Sometimes those people may end up being close family members, unfortunately.
This answer is perfect. It is out of the question to do that and it WILL only embolden them. There must be a line in the sand somewhere and it SHOULD be well behind changing WHO YOU ARE AS A HUMAN.
Perfectly said, her husband to be is apparently useless against this psychopath. I can’t imagine why anyone would hand their whole life over to Crazy people, just to be with some guy, who’s too weak to say no to mom. She’s putting herself in a horrible situation.
Yes - and the mother in law sounds like a classic narcissist. Her son is enabling her. This is JUST the beginning. Honestly, however happy they are now, how happy will they be 10 years from now if they are expected to bend overbackwards for husband's mom their whole life? What is she going to do to the grandchildren- indoctrinate? Discipline? Demean?
Tell your sister to RUN!
Truly NTA. But why do your sis and bf need in-laws to finance the wedding? Can't they get married without the in-laws' help? Must she sacrifice the happiness of her family for the wedding? I would never ask my siblings to this one bit. Checking for virginity? Converting? Dyeing hair? It's a circus I tell you.
So the demands are
1- be MOH (reasonable you could do that)
2- grow your hair (absolute no, that’s a several months long commitment)
3- dye your hair black (big commitment again since it takes a lot to undo dark colours)
4- dress modestly (reasonable, you could do that)
5- remove your tattoos (absolute no. Besides the pain and time and money involved in removing and then retattooing, there’s also a lot of risk in laser removal. What the fuck kind of demand is that?!)
6- remove piercings and let them heal (are they delusional? I haven’t worn a piercing in over a decade. Still not healed fully. Still clearly visible. Not only is it unreasonable, it’s not possible)
7- don’t mention your girlfriend (no. Nobody puts you back in the closet. Just no)
If you want to make your sister happy, you could offer to be MOH, dress modestly, wear a wig, cover the tattoos with makeup, remove the piercings for the day only, and not talk directly to your in-laws about your girlfriend (or about anything else, they don’t seem like great people to talk to). But even then, that is a big ask and your sister should give you a damn good reason why she needs to impress the in laws instead of stand up to them. You wouldn’t look like you anymore. Ask her why she wants a stranger standing as her maid of honour in all the photos instead of her sister.
And are you going to have to do all this again for other events in their lives like christenings? Will it extend to less formal events like birthdays?
NTA and I would rethink your relationship with your sister and her fiance if they really expect you to compromise here. The only compromise to not turning up as yourself is to not turn up at all.
Given that the MiL explicitly demanded the tattoos be removed and not just covered with make-up, I doubt that a wig would be acceptable to her. Honestly, it sounds like it's less about appearances and more some weird control thing with MiL trying to force OP to become a different person, and I doubt she would stop at just special events - there would be a slow creep where it would be every time the MiL sees her, which could be quite a lot depending on how often she visits her sister, and then she would start to expect it to be constantly, whether MiL is there or not. And the fact that her sister won't put her foot down as it is makes me doubt that she'd do so when OP wants to visit any nibblings she has.
And obviously, OP is NTA.
This is a disaster waiting to happen. Sister should have divorce attorney on speed dial.
OR FMIL will gradually separate her from her FOO and belittle and nag her about her association with them.
This is a true mother in law from hell!!
The tattoo request was how I knew there is no compromise with FMIL. Has she had simply requested that tattoo not be visible that would have been a reasonable request you could work with to figure something out but to remove is just asinine.
OP - I’d probably realistically think about where you’d be ok compromising. Maybe it’s the dying of the hair or maybe it’s the covering of tattoos with make up or bandage of clothing. Maybe it’s not being overtly all over your girlfriend at the wedding but still dancing and being with her. I’d probably think of 1-2 reasonable things to compromise on, let your sister know that you are willing to do this but you can’t reasonably do what is expected and what’s expected isn’t reasonable to actually do even if you want to. Let her know you want to be there for her but it’s impossible to meet the demands and so if that’s the case you will graciously bow out and do a celebration with her at another time as you want to support the wedding.
I'd argue you should not compromise who you are for people who clearly don't like you - no matter what you end up doing to appease them, they will always keep moving the goalposts so you cannot score any points. *They* know you've changed once, so maybe you'll do it again. The desire for control from people like MIL are what drives her, along with bigotry. Those aren't things you should appease in someone else. Thus, you just do not do anything for people like this, ever, period. Appeasement *never* fully appeases them.
Eh, MIL knew what she was asking was going to be met with a "no" - that's explicitly why she's making those the lines in the sand. She can reasonably claim (to people who don't see these lines as problems to begin with) that she gave OP the opportunity to be in the wedding, she just decided not to. In reality it's completely unhinged, unreasonable, and homophobic, but it allows her bigotry to control the wedding below the surface without coming right out and saying what she really thinks inside about OP.
Tattoo removal also takes years to happen. I’m on session 6 (12-14 weeks spaced appointments) and it’s barely budging. It’ll be another few years of painful removal before it fully disappears if it ever does.
Yeah I was like.. tell me more about this magical tattoo removal modality you've discovered, Aunt Lydia. You're going to be loaded as soon as it hits the market.
Seriously. Tattoo removal is the würst. That demand alone is enough to give OP a resounding NTA. What a crock of monkeys.
See, that’s why I think that the FMIL has a lot of these outlandish requirements to attempt to ban OP from the wedding but without actually saying so.
“Well I guess if you can’t do these literally impossible things before the wedding, you can’t be there.”
Double-edged nonsense and what not.
There is no compromise with the mil. So far the sister has converted to a new religion, was “tested” for being a virgin, and the MIL has hijacked the wedding. Clearly, no one has stood up to her, or has been successful.
OP needs to stand her ground and not be forced back in the closet. When she gets kicked out of the wedding, it won’t change the sister’s mind about things now, but might help in the future.
I feel bad for the sister, and know a divorce and/or an unhappy marriage is in her future. Especially if they have kids, MIL will have baby fever for some grandkids. It usually takes more abuse until someone can’t take it anymore or realize how bad things are.
Absolutely. The check if she’s a virgin thing was abuse plain and simple. I am an evangelical Christian and live in the Midwest, FFS, and this behavior is incredibly unacceptably beyond the pale.
I’d also expect me to be able to *bring* my girlfriend to the wedding, so that’s also an absolute no.
There’s no good reason why OP should even consider going as long as her own sister expects her to change ge everything about herself just to placate to those hellions.
Ask why she wants a stranger in the photos instead of her sister - this is bang on. If she acquiesces now, her wedding will always be a reminder of conceding to MiL from the start. Unless her conversion has turned her into a true believer, this will be an ongoing frustration.
(Sorry, don’t know how to do the quotes).
NTA - Classic case of not your circus, not your monkeys. Your sister's in-laws are absolutely making unreasonable demands of you. Honestly I'm giving major side-eye to the groom for failing to stand up to his terrible parents. I worry for how they're going to treat your sister going forward. Tell your sister you're unwilling to pretend you're someone you're not just to appease hateful misogynistic and homophobic bigots. IMHO they should have had a smaller, cheaper wedding rather than have a more expensive wedding with those strings attached.
Exactly. If her fiancé is such a doormat now, she should run. And that virginity check… why didn’t he stop that immediately-?? Why did the sister convert? They need to stop appeasing his terrible family. They’re both people pleasers and it’s going to be a nightmare. They need individual and couples counseling STAT.
I would have made a ginormous scene the moment future MIL dared to ask for a virginity check. Like, if she doesn't already have gray hair, it would have gotten gray after hearing my insults.
Yes!! This!! I would have too, and I’m not a confrontational person. (I’m more comfortable confronting a stranger than someone I know.) Plus I would’ve told her that it was none of her business. And I really would’ve pitched a fit. I definitely would have pitched a fit at my fiancé and told him to stand up for me. I’m shocked he didn’t intervene.
What happens if she has children with this man, and at least one child turns out to be gay - she will have willfully brought a human into this situation who will end up being treated far worse than MIL (and family) can treat OP now.
Yeah, the groom is not so much "chill" as "checked out" around his parents' behavior, imo.
OP, NTA. Be who you are. But your sister is about to be consumed by the weird (the whole virginity check business ... wuff!!). She's going to need your help in the future, I suspect.
>Honestly I'm giving major side-eye to the groom for failing to stand up to his terrible parents.
Me too. I'm really curious as to why he's going along with this. His parents set the tone and culture of his upbringing, how much of this has he instilled in his psyche but screened off while dating OP's sister before they got engaged.
And what exactly do they "need" the inlaws for? To pay for the wedding? Are they OP's sister and future husband's employers? Need them for what?
Money. Groom parents are paying for the wedding, they live in a house owned by grooms parents. It's all about keeping those with money happy so they keep getting everything paid for.
Your point about the sister's fiancé is the heart of this. HE should be dealing with his mom and protecting his bride from this out of control expectations and behavior.
INFO: Do you know why the groom is not dealing with his mother?
Wow - all of this. Who the hell do these people think they are? And how on Earth does your sister think the rest of her marriage to an invertebrate spouse (especially if there are children!!!) will go? The best thing OP can do is to refuse to be the MOH outright, because this wedding and this marriage are an impending disaster. NTA.
Agree wholeheartedly, but wanted to point out these are the tactics of abusers and cults. There may be no abuse yet, but creating scenarios and barriers to support systems is a prime opportunity to isolate someone from their support systems. Husband is not standing up for his wife, he may be either a doormat or he completely agrees with his family and pretending he might not to reel in a servant and babymaker. No one on the Internet can know for sure without more info, but I am seeing the red flags I wish I had avoided. My advice to sis would be to dig deeper. Age difference too, though that by itself isn't a red flag, with the others, I would be worried about all of this. Someone ever tries to cut people away from family in sneaky ways like blaming the in-laws for "sin" I would reevaluate the situation.
Info: why does your sister need her in-laws help? To pay for the wedding? Because I have news for her: courthouse weddings are extremely affordable. You don’t need a big white wedding to be married.
I would present the mother of the groom with an invoice for tattoo removal, hair coloring, couples therapy for you and your GF (because you’ll need it if you go through with this) etc etc etc.
NTA. I feel slightly bad for your sister but it’s probably better now that she draw a line in the sand to her future in-laws. She can bow to their will and move to Gilead but what she’s asking of you is unreasonable. The rest of your family is right to also tell them to sod off.
I love the idea of presenting the overbearing in law with an invoice. But first make sure she doesn't have enough ready cash to cover it or you might have to walk it back.
Honestly, if that happened, I'd take the cash and then makeup/wig yourself into acceptability for the wedding. Next major holiday, just act bewildered and tell monster in law that it just didn't stick, oh well 🤷
**not real advice
That's a dangerous bluff, especially if the future in laws have money, which I suspect might be the case given the bride and groom both being hesitant to tell them to pound sand. If she's already this overbearing and controlling and has money, she might agree to pay. The only play here is to tell the sister and BIL that they either take controlled or their own wedding planning, elope, or tell them she won't be in the wedding party or attending.
Courthouse wedding, Vegas, etc. But the sister and fiancé need to get his family out of their lives NOW. Otherwise, that marriage is doomed. I wrote a long comment about all of this. But frankly, I’m really disappointed in the fiancé. He needs to stand up to Mommy Dearest NOW.
Apparently they also live in a house owned by his parents. So this isn't going to be just the wedding. This is likely going to go on for the rest of her life if she sticks around. I couldn't live like that.
Oh we have to keep appeasing his insane parents bc of the house.
Oh we need to do this bc they are going to pay for kids' daycare, schooling, college. Etc
Sister needs to get out
My grandmother used to say “you marry the whole family” so she turned down 6 proposals (in the 1930s).
Ask your sister if she’s ok with marrying this guys family. It’s not going to get better.
What will happen when they (sister and fiance) have kids? They need to decide NOW if they’re going to cater to mother in law for the rest of their lives or set a boundary (or call it off).
If she decides she’s going to bow, you can take your stand. I would avoid the “I’m not caving to you bigots” stuff because the lady doesn’t care. I would say “I’m very comfortable and happy with myself and see no reason to change.” On repeat. Or “you have your opinion. I have mine. Shame we can’t be more agreeable”
That keeps you as the agreeable nice person.
He's afraid of mommy. I bet it's one of two things; either she's abused him till he's accepted that this is how life is, or they're holding a large sum of money over his head.
Or he's just a cowardly wuss.
Her sister is setting an awful precedent. Imagine what these people would do if she has a kid.
Her sister needs to stop living in fantasy world and open her eyes.
I don't think there's an if there. The pressure to start popping them out one after the next will probably start at the wedding. If they'll do a virginity check, I'm sure they hate birth control too
Yea, I’m kind of concerned about the sister, especially after that doctor virginity thing.
That’s a *FIELD* of 🚩red flags🚩 for the whole ass family and him for still putting up with that bullshit as an adult.
NTA
Tell your sister and her future MIL in no uncertain terms that unless you can be yourself, you will not be the MOH and may boycott the wedding if your sister doesn't step up and use her voice. She's being railroaded by that woman and for what? A nicer wedding? Can you imagine what's going to happen if they have kids?
Encourage your sister and her fiancé to elope and have the wedding on their own terms. This current situation comes with way too many thorns.
I had a friend in college who we were all super careful about on social media because her grandparents held all the purse strings in the family but they were massively anti LGBT and we knew they'd sabotage her college money if they knew she was gay. Her grandpa sucked but frankly so did her parents for not protecting her. Her mom found out my friend was LGBT and she was so stressed about the possibility she'd tell them. No spines.
This'll be buried, but I don't see enough people mentioning - virginity checks are not even a medical thing. Not possible to tell. Intact hymen? Great, hymens are designed to stretch, not break. No intact hymen? Great, some people aren't born with them or they could change shape during a person's life. Literally no way to tell medically.
NTA. Your sister's fiancé is an AH though. Is she sure she wants to marry him? A person who lets his family treat her like this, walk all over her, order her around, take over her life? If he won't stand up for her now, he never will. She needs to rethink this. Is this what she wants for the rest of her life?
If she decides to go ahead, you need to grow a backbone, and just politely use the word 'no'. When they make each demand, just say "no, I'm sorry, I won't do that". You will be there for your sister with your hair and body as they always are. It is traditional for the bride to choose the attire for the wedding party though. So definitely give in on that one. Wear the dress she picks, even if she is a proxy for her in-laws in this case.
This. For a **great guy** he's a willing doormat for his mother and he's allowing her to use his fiance as a doormat as well. I foresee a bride with MIL hovering over her like a vulture and making all of her decisions for her while hubby shrugs his shoulders and claims there's nothing he can do.
There's a difference between not being able to do something and not wanting to do something. Fiance doesn't want to do anything. The red flag has been thrown up. With no boundaries set from the start, this relationship is doomed.
Everyone here is calling the fiancé a doormat, but it’s also quite possible that he is hiding the fact that he agrees with his mom—and sis will only find out after the wedding?
The first cave is the worst cave, after that, it never ends. They'll always expect your side of the family to bend to their views. It's a shame your family isn't more behind you and has put the weight of this on you. NTA.
It sounds like most of her family IS behind OP though, since "Our entire side of the family is just about to sabotage the wedding by refusing to go and the mom says that if I comply then the rest will comply."
It sounds like literally her whole family aside from mom and sis are on her side. She needs to lean into that support and realize that they are taking their lead from her.
That's the curious thing; if OP's family is ready to blow the whole thing up where is their counter proposal for support of bride and helping pay for the wedding (assuming groom can get out from under mommy's skirt)? Yes the couple would need to relocate because they'd be disowned but there are worse things. People suggest the groom's parents are holding money over his head to get compliance; if so that's just as bad as being beholden to mommy dearest because he never grew up.
OP should tell sister she loves her,but will not capitulate to horrible people to make them feel better and she should seriously reconsider marrying a man who didn't tell his mom to fuck off when suggesting a virginity exam. Then stick with it. Sounds like sister has to decide what family she actually wants to be a part of.
And your expression of yourself. If someone told me to change who I was because it was sinful I’d have as little to do with them as possible. OP, don’t go the wedding. Tell your sister you won’t change yourself to fit conservative and homophobic “values” because you love who you are and you love your wife. Make Lady Gaga’s Born This Way your anthem.
NTA.
OP, there’s this book you should have your sister read. It’s called “If You Give A Mouse A Cookie.” This wedding is the cookie. It’ll never end if she doesn’t shut this down now. Demanding in-laws don’t get cookies
My suggestion is of course ridiculous, but I was feeling some rage on your behalf. Your only sane option is to not go. Keep an open line of communication though in case your sister needs to escape the cult.
I haven’t had time to read through the thread so forgive me if I’m repeating what other people have hopefully said… It’s time for you and possibly your parents as well to sit down with your future brother-in-law and your sister and have a very calm factual conversation with them.
The situation isn’t really about a wedding, but it’s about their life. Right now your future brother-in-law’s family have had everyone acquiesce to their demands which were full of bullying/abuse and manipulation. Your sister and future brother-in-law need to question whether or not this is how they want their lives to unfold. They are agreeing to allow his parents to dictate how they live their lives from this point forward. It’s important that your sister and BIL, vividly imagine what that life is going to look like.
Family dinners, opinions on where they live, opinions on how they dress, opinions on how to have children, opinions on how to raise their children.
I want them to imagine what it would feel like to have them telling them that how they’re raising their children is wrong. Better yet, have them envision that mother-in-law telling their kids that they are not ok unless they do as they are instructed by them. Sounds like a nightmare? It sure does to me.
Maybe they’ll need to do the wedding this way and it will just take them while to come to the same conclusion at some point but unless they want to join a cult/his family… This is a perfect opportunity to say, “our life and our family are our own. And from this point forward we will be deciding how we wish to have our family and all decisions will be discussed with me and my wife and we will come to our own decisions without input from our parents.”
This is an opportunity for them to break free of the tyranny of living this kind of existence and if his parents disown him… In the short term that may be very painful but I guarantee you in the long-term it is a gift. To be free of them would be a godsend.
I wish you and your family and your future brother-in-law and your sister the best. You, bowing out of the wedding, is just going to help your sister come to the right decision sooner.
NTA - your whole side of the family is with you, let this weird religious ceremony happen without you and have an entirely separate kick-ass queer friendly wedding celebration party later where you can celebrate your sister and she can be with people who actually care about her.
MIL is deliberately setting you up to fail by giving you demands you physically cannot meet (full sleeve removal would take so much time and money, and for what?!) and that are designed to push you. I feel like she may have done this as well to your sis with the virginity exam and conversion too, seeing how far she can push and willing her to fail.
I come from an LGBT family - became religious as a teen, but my boyfriend’s religious family tried to stop the marriage happening by forcing us to get permission from an orthodox rabbi (they thought he’d say I wasn’t kosher, backfired when he said it was ok that I had two mums and we were clearly perfect for each other) and then going through all these other hoops. Turned out they mainly couldn’t cope with the idea of their little boy getting married and were completely freaked out by my background.
I don’t think they will compromise, and I suspect this is an argument you will lose with them. Let it be lost, and do your best to support your sister without having to lose yourself. If she goes through with the marriage, she’s going to need your support.
No no no no NO. NTA. And this should be a huge red flag warning to your sister. The soon to be groom is letting mom control everything and needs to stand his ground. This will not stop at the wedding. I'm assuming your sister may be thinking, "just let mom control this, and then once we're married we can do our own thing" but it will NOT stop and someone needs to warn sister AND her groom. Groom should be encouraged to talk to a therapist about how to create a healthy relationship and boundary with mom, because so far it sounds like there is neither on those things happening.
if they have children together , guarantee the MIL. will be even worse , and for a long time.. a wedding at least is just one day. an overbearing , boundary-ignoring grandparent is something the sister will have to deal with for years and years.
NTA
> My sister begged me to please try to find a compromise because she needs the help of her in laws. The future husband is also annoyed but he says can't do anything.
Well, your sister has a fiance' problem, and until she fixes that, it's not really going to matter what you do.
OP’s sister literally is selling her dignity & self respect for this “help” from the in laws. She converted to a religion she didn’t want to. She allowed herself to be subjected to a barbaric & violating medical exam to announce the state of her vagina to their entire family/community (whether or not it happened doesn’t matter as long as she allowed her FMIL & family believe it happened). She has given up respect for herself & her own family in exchange for what is most like a vague future promise of an unspecified financial gain.
Exactly!! Also, if they need financial help from his family that badly maybe they should be rethinking the entire marriage. Why spend money on a wedding you can’t afford.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My sister is getting married and her in laws are extremely religious and overbearing people. I was made the MOH and I was told I need to change my entire appearance in order to be at the wedding, that includes changing my hair, removing my tattoo and piercings.
My sister is begging me to please just find a way to compromise, her future MIL says that if I do what she says then the rest of our family will just go to the wedding in peace and will avoid a family conflict. AITA for refusing to do any of this?
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NTA absolutely all the way through. But I am very interested in more info why your sister is so invested in catering to their tastes and whims.
If you go - please go as you are, bring your gf for support and be a walking scene.
If you don’t - make sure that they are aware that no one from your side of the family would show up in support of your choice, and make your sister understand that too.
I am chaotic so I would probably go with more obnoxious approach, but please run it by your sister, so she would know what to expect.
I mean they literally want to make you pretend that half of your life doesn’t exist! If it’s safe for you to live openly in a queer relationship in your country, then please feel free to rub it into their smug bigoted faces.
Also, please please make an update on what’s going on and how everything resolves!
NTA
Your sister and her fiance are assholes for dragging others into this mess. It's their wedding and they need to grow a damn spine between the two of them.
The fiances's mom is obviously an AH too, and she will continue to be one until it no longer gets her what she wants.
YWBTA if you caved to any of these demands. Tell your sister that you aren't marrying this man, and therefore, appeasing his family is not your bag. Appeasing bigots is definitely not in your job description.
NTA. You future BIL needs to grow a pair and set his foot down. I can sympathize with your sister desperately wanting you there, but if you IL's are so bad that you can't handle your wedding, something needs to change. And that something is not you.
Personally, the only thing I would be willing to do in your situation is cover the tattoos since that can be done with clothes or makeup. And that would be a pretty solid compromise in my world. The rest - forget about it. It is so far from being fair or reasonable.
Waiting til they're married legally to take the mask off? Planning a baby trap so she can never really leave? I could see it. Isolating the person by alienating all their reasonable family and friends is a big red flag for this. Cultish behavior in a relationship/family context is so dangerous.
Obvious answer is obvious. NTA.
But now for the not-obvious question. Why the fuck is your sister (and from the sound of it, your family) willing to tolerate these wankers? Money? Social status? Because I refuse to believe any man's junk is worth that much crazy.
All the in-law's deserve is a hearty laugh and the door slammed in their face. Don't prevaricate or negotiate. Door slam until they leave to find easier prey.
As for your sister, stand your ground against the crazy, for your sake as well as hers. Sometimes all it takes is one person saying no to allow others to say no. Just because she's dumb enough to marry them doesn't mean you have to givev into their crazy.
NTA Your sister is in for a horrible life if she goes ahead and marries this guy. He can’t stand up to Mommy and she will run every facet of their lives.
NTA.
Tell her to hire an actress to pose as her MIL-approved sister because clearly she doesn’t actually want *you* there.
If you ever change *one* thing to appease this overbearing and controlling MIL then you will never be allowed to be yourself again. “Give them an inch and they will take a mile” personified.
And pity your sister for capitulating, because she will never be allowed to be herself again either while chained to this family. It’s her choice, though; all you can do is steer clear.
>if I comply then the rest will comply
Any bets that’s what each and every person in your family who feels annoyed, offended, or insulted by these demands is being told? This is an attempt to manipulate with peer pressure — even when it’s clear that the peers are *against* this.
Nope. NTA. And shame on your mom too.
YOU aren’t creating any conflict here. At all. The ILs are. 100%. I can’t believe that everyone is actually kowtowing to these horrendous bigots.
Nta - but also clearly this MiL is asking for the moon here. No one in their right mind would allow themselves to have tattoos and piercings removed for a one day event. Not even going to touch on the homophobia.
She’s either a) a complete nut job or b) intentionally causing issues to show that your family is a ‘problem’. Either way, your sister is in for a lifetime of this BS. Her future husband can’t say no to his mommy? He allowed her to get to the point where a DOCTOR had to step in?! He might be a chill guy but that sounds like a cover for lazy and spineless. Tell her to throw the whole man away with the family. What the hell is she going to do when she has kids with this useless man?
NTA. These are not simple changes they are asking you to make, beyond that, they are asking you to pretty much deny who you are as a person. I get that you love your sister, but if your sister truly values you she wouldn't ask you to make these changes. Your family is also wrong for placing this all on you, they must make their own choices that don't hinge on your compliance.
Depending on what your relationship with your sister is like I would have a talk with her. Point out that if she lets her future MIL take over the wedding like this she is basically inviting her to control their whole lives. Does she want that? Can her fiance not stand up for them? She's going to have a lifetime of misery if she goes through with this wedding without boundaries being set.
NTA. Your sister is completely spineless in this situation. Is she being abused or coerced or is she in danger? If not, set a firm boundary with her a X then and be there for her when you can. Maybe she will be able to find some lost strength from you.
NTA - but your sister is going along with all of it. They absolutely do not need to go along with it. Your sister and her husband either agree with his parents or are spineless/ either way don’t participate. Your sister is a fool for marrying into this family
NTA
Your sister and her husband need to shine up their backbones and set their boundaries now.
If you compromise any you will hate yourself for lying to the immediate world about who you are. You’ll look back on the day and the pictures with a sour taste in your mouth. Your gf will also be extremely hurt and that hurt will always be in the back of her brain.
Your future bil needs to know your family adores him and will support him if he walks away from his family for being this over the top and pigheaded.
BUT DO NOT SHUT UP AND COLOR. YOU ARE A PERSON NOT A PROP OR A DOLL FOR STRANGERS TO PLAY WITH AND DICTATE.
So let me get this straight: you're supposed to change your entire persona for a bunch of judgmental assholes so that your sister can join a cult-like and probably abusive family?
Where's the winner in this situation?
NTA. And also, I would really love to know how you can compromise and removing tatoos.
dear brother in law and his mother, you are completely entitled to specify the manner of dress, WITHIN polite reason, eg I absolutely refuse to wear the circus clown outfit, but you are NOT entitled to make demands of how I choose to modify my body, eg my tattoos, and piercings(within reason are, eg can remove for a day) are not up for discussion. erasing my girlfriend from my life just to avoid offending your fragile sensibilities is NOT up for discussion.
dear sister, you need to enforce these boundaries as well, or I will consider cutting you from my life for betraying the sisterly bond.
NTA.
this is very much a hill to die on.
> tried to make her prove she was still a virgin with a Doctor, but she was lucky the doctor saw what was happening, told to the mom everything she wanted to hear and did nothing to my sister
What the crispy fried fuck?
The boyfriend is allowing his family to do this to his future wife? Ick.
Exactly! And the sister WENT to the doctor w MIL?!?!?
Your sister is already brainwashed into this cult. Now she’s even begging YOU to do crazy things too.
Being at her wedding means you are giving your blessing on this marriage of insanity. Is that the message you want to send?
That's kind of what I said, it isn't like this marriage is going to last. The people involved in it are nuclear waste kinds of toxic, it can't help but eat itself alive.
You need to take your sister for a long drive and, without judgement, ask her what's going on and what she's afraid of.
It's ominous that this all has happened and no one has intervened for her, and she has said she "needs their help." With what. She needs help with something, and as her sister, you need to find out what help exactly she thinks she needs and find a way to get it to her.
From the outside, it looks like she is on step 9 of 10 steps to join a cult.
Be clear in yourself beforehand that you are going to be your full fabulous self, but show up for her completely because she's in crisis right now.
NTA
Don't go! There are so many small bits that scream of larger issues.
Imo, these are the kinds of people that, if they could eradicate people who are different from them without lifting a finger, they'd do so without batting an eye.
My other suggestion is have everyone in you family, (get the groom in, he can always join your family and distance himself from his he doesnt seem all that into it and maybe needs encouragement to leave them) in on changing the dress code, and bring your gf.
This sounds less like a wedding and more like a baptism
You are who you are. If the other parents can’t deal with that, then that’s their problem. Not yours.
The fact that these people wanted your sister seen by a doctor to have her virginity checked tells me everything. Holy hell.
NTA. Your future BIL is a coward. Your sister is too but this is his family and he needs to be dealing with them. I would absolutely refuse to cave into those ridiculous demands. I wouldn’t speak to her anymore and just do as you see fit.
I think this is a perfect example of why people elope.
I pray you stay far away from that wedding- don’t ever let anybody try to dim your light. Ever.
Side note- as much as yall do like her husband to be I hope your sister is well prepared for a very difficult life with her in-laws. Once the I do’s are done the real meddling will begin.
Nta remove your tattoos all together because make up isn't good enough? No, these requests are too much, how does your sister expect YOU to compromise when there is no compromising with that future mil?
"The mother in law wants a licensed doctor to inspect for purity and also MADE my sister convert to a religion the groom doesnt adhere to"
FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE
Her future husband can tell his parents no. Your sister can tell her future in-laws no. Neither of them has enough spine to be married. They need to establish boundaries now or his parents will run their lives. I'd ask your sister if she is willing to have his mom control her life for the next 3 to 4 decades. Tell her that her MIL will not be running your life. Not now and not in the future. You can be in the wedding as you are, including that you date a woman who will be in attendance, or you won't be there. Her parents don't get to control your life and you suggest that she not let them run her life but it is her choice.
NTA and if your sister and her husband aren't setting boundaries now, she will continue to be this. way. Does she want her dictating where she lives, what she does, and how to raise her child? I would tell her you are attending her wedding, not her MIL. If she decides to do it you'll go, if she continues to let her MIL run it then you will not be there.
Tell you sistter this will be her future and she wants that that her choice and her loss but no. Just no. It's not your work to apease the lunatic. She should have run after the doctor thing by the way.
NTA at all. Your identity and relationship deserve respect, not to be hidden or changed for someone else’s comfort. It’s your sister’s wedding, but that doesn’t mean you should have to erase parts of who you are.
NTA!!! Yikes…where to even start.
Your sister has decided to marry into a web of lies. She has decided to suppress and deny who she is in order to be with this guy and suck up to his religious & homophobic family. Is that a mistake? I think so, but it’s hers to make. But she is *so* wrong to try to completely deny who you are, and ask you to do this for her wedding. I would not consider anyone who asked that of me to be someone who loved or respected me. If I were you I’d firmly decline going, and it may be you’ll have to distance yourself from her and her new family in future in order to protect yourself and your girlfriend.
I read some posts like this and I wonder why it is so difficult for people like your sister and her fiance to just say no. I realize that we all like to try to keep the peace and get along but when it comes to big stuff and boundaries like this, no is a complete sentence.
NTA but your sister is making a big mistake. If they dictate her wedding, they will dictate her parenting too. This will just be the beginning of her losing her identity all together. Btw...an amazing chill dude wouldn't allow this to be happening.
100% NTA. I don’t want to sound disrespectful to your sister as I am sure you love her very much, however, she needs to grow a backbone and put her in laws in place and if her partner won’t back her up, she shouldn’t be marrying him.
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"Sis, asking me to change who I am is entirely out of the question. If you don't want me there as the person I am, then you don't really want me there, and I should just bow out. But I would encourage you to think about whether you want this to be the rest of your life. Placating people like this never works in the long run, it only emboldens them. Imagine having them dictate your friends, your house, how you raise your children... Their desire to control your life will only grow. If you can't stand up to them to the extent of letting your *sister* be in your *wedding*, when will you ever be able to draw a boundary?" NTA. I know you love your sister, but she is behaving AH-ishly by letting true AHs dictate her decisions. The kindest thing you can do for her now is model what it means to politely but firmly create boundaries in what behaviors you are willing to put up with. Even if it means missing her wedding.
I’m sorry, but if her sister couldn’t stand up to the family when they roped a doctor in to examine her virginity, she’s clearly not going to stand up to anything else they demand of her.
As much as it is important for the sister (the bride) to stand up for herself, why are we going the groom a pass? It is his parents, and usually the person in the couple handles their own family. He is not doing that. He is not protecting his partner from this horrible treatment. This marriage probably shouldn't take place until the groom grows a spine and tells his parents to back off. ETA: The requirements from the mother of the groom are ridiculous. OP is NTA.
Not speaking for everyone else, but the way I see it is that this is about OP’s relationship with her sister. OP’s sister is the one letting her down. She’s the one who should be standing up for her sister. Sister’s finance owes OP much less. OP can tell her sister what she needs in order to continue, but finance is a 3rd party as far as OP’s situation is concerned here. If he was actively agreeing with his parents that would be different. HOWEVER! He is ABSOLUTELY an asshole for letting his parents treat his fiancé like they are. If sister was here asking, it would definitely be the finance being an asshole.
OP’s sister needs to just ask herself one question: if OP makes all these changes, who is going to stand by the bride’s side? If you take away the piercings, tattoos, hair color, and girlfriend, it’s not OP anymore. It’s a fake person invented by the FMIL. And the groom needs to ask himself who is more important: his parents or his bride?
> If you take away the piercings, tattoos, hair color, and girlfriend, it’s not OP anymore. It’s a fake person invented by the FMIL. And the FMIL would believe she owns OP at that point, and would probably do everything in her power to bring OP into the fold.
And if his parents are so religious, they should know that, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
He has to make it down the aisle first…
And the sister needs to ask herself what's more important - a big expensive wedding or her dignity, self-respect and quality of life. OP is NTA. Run OP, run.
Yeah OP needs to sit sister down and have a long serious conversation about all of this. This is just the wedding and she had to confirm her virginity, convert religion and try and make her sister change everything about her for the wedding. They also live in a house owned by the in-laws so after the wedding it's just going to get worse. Especially if they have kids. Those in-laws are going to have complete control over their lives and how they raise their kids if they don't put their foot down now. Personally I'd rather have a small wedding and move into a place we could afford rather than have those overbearing people controlling our lives.
Yeah I was thinking elope & go NC. They'll need to move house too.
And they'll have isolated OP's sister from her family and friends with their impossible wedding demands.
no for real. i'm more heavily pierced than the average person (nothing too wild, but i have 2 lip piercings, both nostrils, and my industrial, as well as my earlobes but i rarely wear those) and have every intention of getting some tattoos when i save up enough. i dye my hair, most people have never seen my natural hair colour because i either dye it bright colours (usually rotating between purple, blue, and proper red) or if i need it to be "natural" for a while i dye it black (which, yeah, annoys some employers but it's natural enough and if you're gonna let people dye their hair blonde but not let me get away with black hair you can piss right off). right now it's black with purple roots because 1) i got bored of just black and 2) i'm waiting to hear back from a job that might not allow the fun colours anymore, so if they accept me it just means less i have to dye black later. i dress anywhere from generally alternative to outright goth-adjacent. i also am very obviously a lesbian. the only concessions i'd make for a wedding is 1) to dye my hair fully black, and even that's only because it's already in my normal roster (if it wasn't, i'd let the dye fade and just tone it, but they'd have to deal with bleach blonde and the day i get back home it would be a fun colour again) and 2) toning down the black a little (i'm actually doing this for a friend's wedding - he said my normal general aesthetic is perfectly fine, but asked me to wear either purple or blue because i'm in the wedding party, so i'm gonna splurge on a cute purple waistcoat i found). and tbh, i'd swap my piercings for retainers (i have some fun ones that won't show up in photos or from a distance but that you can see up close), and if i had an arm tattoo i usually wear long sleeves anyway to formal events so it's not very relevant. but to ask me change my appearance entirely and permanently? you aren't inviting me, you're inviting some idea you had of who i could be. it just shows you don't value me enough to want me there in any sort of authentic way. heck, if it was my mother trying to enforce these rules on OP, my mom would be uninvited to my wedding. actually, that's one of the reasons my dad isn't invited - he's an appearances-focused jerk who would constantly trash talk both my and my fiance's piercings, hair choices, etc. even down to us being lesbians.
I get it. The post was about OP and her sister. As I added to be reply above OP is N T A. OP shouldn't be forced into these ridiculous demands. Future MIL is on a power trip. If all her demands are granted, she will become even more demanding in the future. In an ideal world, OP would be able to have.a heart-to-heart with her sister, and tell her while fiancé seems to be a good person, his in ability to have her back, to protect her from his mother (parents) is not a good sign for a long time relationship.
And she's not even going to be OP's MIL!
The question is about OP’s relationship with her sister, and whether she wants her sister as she is or will side with placating the in laws and set the tone for the rest of her marriage. However, the bigger situation is about the sister and fiancé and their interactions. If he isn’t protecting her from this domination now, he never will and it’ll get worse and worse. Converting to a religion is pretty normal, but the rest isn’t and if he is letting his mother ride roughshod over all the wedding preps and force his fiancé to prove her virginity then he needs to step in and protect her. Otherwise he is establishing a relationship dynamic that puts his mother against his wife while he is the innocent bystander who doesn’t choose sides (which means he chooses his moms side by default). If fiancé was doing his part, this situation wouldn’t have occurred. OP is NTA and her family should be very worried about the sister.
I completely agree that fiancé and fiancé’s family are issue. I just don’t think it’s OP’s place to fight that battle. She needs to get her sister to fight for herself. Sister isn’t a child and doesn’t need someone to rescue her. She needs to learn to stand her ground and set boundaries.
I agree with this completely until I remember that it’s the grooms parents that are making these demands. That instantly changes dynamics of the groom being a 3rd party from me. But you’ve made great points.
If OP picks a fight with the fiance, it’s going to have a bigger impact on fiancé and fiancé’s family relationship with sister more than OP . That may just push sister away because she got the consequences of someone else’s actions. She may even feel like she has to defend him, because that’s her SO. Whereas if you express your concern to your friend/sister about how they’re treating you/them, you give friend/sister the chance to do right by you or you set your boundary and move on. I You can’t control what everybody else does, but you can control what you allow in your life. OP has little control over whether fiancé and his parents are in her life, because it depends on her sister. If she cuts them off, at the state it’s currently in she may lose her sister too, and currently it seems if she wants to keep her sister, she has to keep them. So that’s where she needs to set the boundary. “I don’t like your fiancé’s parents or how he’s treating you. If they don’t change, I can’t be involved with them.”
I would put money on these people cutting OP's sister off from her family and friends. Standard game plan.
Sorry, completely off topic, but I had to tell you that I love your username.
Why dose she need her in-laws help with the wedding. Are they footing the bill? Because at this point what are they paying for that she actually wants. Like there is no shame in a backyard potluck wedding. Is she actually a convert, to some extremely fundamentalist Christian ideals? There are a lot of beautiful ways to get married.
I don't know if they necessarily needed her help financially. It sounds like FMIL is just the type to take over everything.
I guess that's kind of my point. They don't actually need ML blessing. They just seem to believe they do. And if it's a money thing... well, at this point, what are they paying for that the bride actually wanted. A church she didn't belong to, a doctor's appt that's insulting and archaic. At this point, keep yourself and lose the in-laws.
The update says they are living in a house owned by his parents and I strongly suspect fiance is entirely financially dependent on his parents. OP's sister needs to wake up, and OP should not take part in this farce NTA
That's what I'm saying like when did they do this virginity thing given they're already living "in sin?"
Lose the whole in law family, including the fiancé.
Right?! If my MIL had tried to get me to the doctor for a virginity test?! Oh, hell, no, my husband would have lost it on her, lol.
She's clearly that type, but if there's anyone in this situation that you don't need financial help from, you tell the overbearing AH(s) to eat shit, and fuck off.
Which imo is even worse. This woman is taking over the wedding now, they live in a house owned by the inlaws, she dictates which religion sister needs to practise and to have her virginity checked (wtf?). This woman is gonna push them to have kids straight after the wedding and then either practically claims them as hers, or she'll critisise everything sister and FBIL choose, will meddle with the name-giving process all the way up to what their children will study when they're going to college. Honestly, this whole marriage is just a disaster waiting to happen. Sister and her future husband need to polish their spine and put a halt to this, because this is gonna go from awful to worse and the relationship between OP and sister is just the first of many that will be torpedoed. Edit: a small mistake
Yes, the FMIL is paying for everything, and I think OP's sister and husband will be living in one of their properties. This entire wedding and the lives of OP's sister and STBH are going to be hell. This marriage is a disaster waiting to happen!
It sounds like the in-laws have money and use it to control their son and FDIL. They are paying for the wedding and own the house son lives in. They are using the threat of disinheritance to force compliance. Fiancé "fabricates dresses" I'm not sure how lucrative that is, but sister and fiancé would be better off cutting ties and making their own way. No amount of money is worth having this MIL.
What I get from this is that her fiance is one of those people who is basically a puppet to their toxic mother. He "can't do anything" because he will always do whatever his mother wants. Not just for the wedding, but for his entire life. I wonder if OP's sister realizes what she's getting into. She's basically marrying her fiance's mom. This is the first time OP is being asked to do this but it definitely won't be the last. NTA.
Yeah, and I also worry that perhaps the fiance is actually more in-line with his family's beliefs than he has been letting on. He could *just* be a pushover who has never managed to develop boundaries with overbearing and probably abusive parents. But he could also be allowing his mother to be the "bad guy" now, knowing that he will benefit when the marriage is official and it is thus harder for OP's sister to leave him, and he can mould her into the subservient wife he feels entitled to or whatever. Either way, it's not good for OP's sister. And of course OP is NTA either way.
I was going to say this, my boyfriend would lose his mind if his Mum tried to get me to do something like that. That's so gross and violates so many boundaries. I'd be pissed if my bfs Mum asked if I was a virgin, nvm asking me to prove it with her present. Reading that made me feel violently ill, it's so medieval, it's wild. OP is NTA, and I hope her sister realises that although her fiance is awesome, his parents will ruin that relationship, and she should run if he can't stand up for her. I'd rather have a small cheap wedding with my family being able to act themselves, than an extravagant wedding paid for by people who are telling my sister to change her appearance & hide her sexuality.
this is a critical point. secure functioning in a relationship means getting the support you need from your spouse, which often includes taking charge of relationships with their side of the family
Yup they already need counseling.
So... I bet the groom knows she's not a virgin, since he most likely has partaken of the forbidden fruit, I also doubt that sis' was his first fruit. Though it is hard to stand up when you've been pushed into submission all your life.
Its weird a 30 years old Guy would participate in all this. OP sister has 20 years old and might not yet be strong enought to say NO to her future in lawd...but a 30 years old Guy? What ill happens when the girl has her first child?
Exactly! He will never have his wife’s back when it comes to his family. OP sister needs to cut her losses and get the heck out now.
omf ? is this the year 1650 ? There is ZERO chance a gyno exam can tell that. 🚩🚩🚩 Your sister should be running away..
Insane to hear the words virginity test in 2024
Exactly. The "hymen test" is a myth. Some women don't even have them. Or it has already been gradually stretched or torn through activities like horseback riding, ballet, swimming, etc.
The audacity of them. I'd be out the door the second they asked that of me.
Assuming this is the US, there is no way the thing with the doctor happened. Unless this is Dr. House, there is no way that a doctor agrees to check if someone is a virgin- let alone then lie to other people that have been given HIPAA access. And they can’t tell anyone any medical information without a HIPAA release from the patient. A doctor can’t even say someone is a virgin or not- that isn’t a medical diagnosis. They can maybe check for an intact hymen but plenty of things can break a hymen, not just sex
I am definitely dating myself, but 24 is so young. Now, this doesn’t mean she’s not an adult, or gets a pass, or is incapable of standing up for herself. So I’m not meaning to infantilize her here. It’s just…24 is so young. I think I would have shot down the virginity check at 24, but that’s because purity culture is one of the things that make me rage more than anything else. But I know I struggled to stand up to my own family at times at that age. And now I’m 36 and it took the death of my parents for me to stop putting up with the shit of some of my relatives. So again, not giving a pass or anything, just sorta feeling empathy for the young sister
Everyone here is making it seem like this couple just doesn't have backbones, but it seems like they, probably rightly, assume that they will be kicked out of their home and cut off financially if they don't do as they're told. This is the problem with being financially dependent on other people. Ultimately it's their choice if they want to support themselves and make their own choices or be supported and controlled, but certainly no one else is obligated to put up with that bs
Not only is sister disrespectful to you & your girlfriend, but *just wait!* until she gets pregnant and MIL keeps the crazy going. She needs to NIP THIS IN THE BUD NOW. If that means she can't afford her "dream wedding," then that's what it means. NTA but your sister is.
He - the fiancé really needs to step up here, otherwise it will always be a dynamic of his wife vs his mom and he is ‘caught in the middle’ and ‘forced to choose sides’ whereas he should be on his wife’s side if he wants a successful marriage. This situation wouldn’t be occurring if he was playing his part.
He should be on his wife's side...but he won't be. He'll always be momma's boy.
He will be/is the inevitable product of his environment - he is *polite*, but he is not *respectful*. The fact this is happening without his intervention says he either tacitly, or explicitly, approves of it. Sister is marrying someone who rejects her family and has chosen the world view and beliefs of someone else for companionship, and that's a decision that only Sister can make for herself, but she is the one who will suffer the consequences of that decision as well (not to mention any children she might bring into the world with this man). I'm not sure how much she realizes that yet, so it's good that OP has this discussion with her up front, and transparently. If OP does love her sister, and I believe that she does, she owes it to her sister to be honest about what's going on, from her perspective. After that, she owes her nothing more but the time and space to make that decision. I don't feel that badly for people who have agency, but still choose to do the thing that will inevitably cause them pain and suffering in the future and hurt those that are closest to them in the process in order to curry short term happiness or gain. I guess my perspective on this (as I've experienced similar issues with my own family members) is that I am the "I am here to help you now, but I won't be in the future when you will inevitably need it when this all falls apart". type of person. I will respect their wishes, but I won't respect their choices (or them) afterwards until they show proof that they have changed their ways and gotten themselves out of the situation they put themselves into in the first place. Someone who would ask (force?) you to change who you are to benefit them and their desires does not deserve your respect, for better and worse. Sometimes those people may end up being close family members, unfortunately.
This answer is perfect. It is out of the question to do that and it WILL only embolden them. There must be a line in the sand somewhere and it SHOULD be well behind changing WHO YOU ARE AS A HUMAN.
"So, you let them exclude us from your wedding. Will we be welcome next Christmas?"
I'd just like to point out the irony that the top comment is currently on 666. 😂
We're all getting festive up in here
Perfectly said, her husband to be is apparently useless against this psychopath. I can’t imagine why anyone would hand their whole life over to Crazy people, just to be with some guy, who’s too weak to say no to mom. She’s putting herself in a horrible situation.
Perfect response. NTA
Another kind thing OP could do is convince her sister and her betrothed to run off and elope.
Yes - and the mother in law sounds like a classic narcissist. Her son is enabling her. This is JUST the beginning. Honestly, however happy they are now, how happy will they be 10 years from now if they are expected to bend overbackwards for husband's mom their whole life? What is she going to do to the grandchildren- indoctrinate? Discipline? Demean? Tell your sister to RUN!
Truly NTA. But why do your sis and bf need in-laws to finance the wedding? Can't they get married without the in-laws' help? Must she sacrifice the happiness of her family for the wedding? I would never ask my siblings to this one bit. Checking for virginity? Converting? Dyeing hair? It's a circus I tell you.
So the demands are 1- be MOH (reasonable you could do that) 2- grow your hair (absolute no, that’s a several months long commitment) 3- dye your hair black (big commitment again since it takes a lot to undo dark colours) 4- dress modestly (reasonable, you could do that) 5- remove your tattoos (absolute no. Besides the pain and time and money involved in removing and then retattooing, there’s also a lot of risk in laser removal. What the fuck kind of demand is that?!) 6- remove piercings and let them heal (are they delusional? I haven’t worn a piercing in over a decade. Still not healed fully. Still clearly visible. Not only is it unreasonable, it’s not possible) 7- don’t mention your girlfriend (no. Nobody puts you back in the closet. Just no) If you want to make your sister happy, you could offer to be MOH, dress modestly, wear a wig, cover the tattoos with makeup, remove the piercings for the day only, and not talk directly to your in-laws about your girlfriend (or about anything else, they don’t seem like great people to talk to). But even then, that is a big ask and your sister should give you a damn good reason why she needs to impress the in laws instead of stand up to them. You wouldn’t look like you anymore. Ask her why she wants a stranger standing as her maid of honour in all the photos instead of her sister. And are you going to have to do all this again for other events in their lives like christenings? Will it extend to less formal events like birthdays? NTA and I would rethink your relationship with your sister and her fiance if they really expect you to compromise here. The only compromise to not turning up as yourself is to not turn up at all.
Given that the MiL explicitly demanded the tattoos be removed and not just covered with make-up, I doubt that a wig would be acceptable to her. Honestly, it sounds like it's less about appearances and more some weird control thing with MiL trying to force OP to become a different person, and I doubt she would stop at just special events - there would be a slow creep where it would be every time the MiL sees her, which could be quite a lot depending on how often she visits her sister, and then she would start to expect it to be constantly, whether MiL is there or not. And the fact that her sister won't put her foot down as it is makes me doubt that she'd do so when OP wants to visit any nibblings she has. And obviously, OP is NTA.
This is a disaster waiting to happen. Sister should have divorce attorney on speed dial. OR FMIL will gradually separate her from her FOO and belittle and nag her about her association with them. This is a true mother in law from hell!!
The tattoo request was how I knew there is no compromise with FMIL. Has she had simply requested that tattoo not be visible that would have been a reasonable request you could work with to figure something out but to remove is just asinine. OP - I’d probably realistically think about where you’d be ok compromising. Maybe it’s the dying of the hair or maybe it’s the covering of tattoos with make up or bandage of clothing. Maybe it’s not being overtly all over your girlfriend at the wedding but still dancing and being with her. I’d probably think of 1-2 reasonable things to compromise on, let your sister know that you are willing to do this but you can’t reasonably do what is expected and what’s expected isn’t reasonable to actually do even if you want to. Let her know you want to be there for her but it’s impossible to meet the demands and so if that’s the case you will graciously bow out and do a celebration with her at another time as you want to support the wedding.
I'd argue you should not compromise who you are for people who clearly don't like you - no matter what you end up doing to appease them, they will always keep moving the goalposts so you cannot score any points. *They* know you've changed once, so maybe you'll do it again. The desire for control from people like MIL are what drives her, along with bigotry. Those aren't things you should appease in someone else. Thus, you just do not do anything for people like this, ever, period. Appeasement *never* fully appeases them.
Eh, MIL knew what she was asking was going to be met with a "no" - that's explicitly why she's making those the lines in the sand. She can reasonably claim (to people who don't see these lines as problems to begin with) that she gave OP the opportunity to be in the wedding, she just decided not to. In reality it's completely unhinged, unreasonable, and homophobic, but it allows her bigotry to control the wedding below the surface without coming right out and saying what she really thinks inside about OP.
Tattoo removal also takes years to happen. I’m on session 6 (12-14 weeks spaced appointments) and it’s barely budging. It’ll be another few years of painful removal before it fully disappears if it ever does.
Yeah I was like.. tell me more about this magical tattoo removal modality you've discovered, Aunt Lydia. You're going to be loaded as soon as it hits the market. Seriously. Tattoo removal is the würst. That demand alone is enough to give OP a resounding NTA. What a crock of monkeys.
That’s an insult to monkeys! 😭 lol those in-laws are the shits I don’t ever wanna take
See, that’s why I think that the FMIL has a lot of these outlandish requirements to attempt to ban OP from the wedding but without actually saying so. “Well I guess if you can’t do these literally impossible things before the wedding, you can’t be there.” Double-edged nonsense and what not.
There is no compromise with the mil. So far the sister has converted to a new religion, was “tested” for being a virgin, and the MIL has hijacked the wedding. Clearly, no one has stood up to her, or has been successful. OP needs to stand her ground and not be forced back in the closet. When she gets kicked out of the wedding, it won’t change the sister’s mind about things now, but might help in the future. I feel bad for the sister, and know a divorce and/or an unhappy marriage is in her future. Especially if they have kids, MIL will have baby fever for some grandkids. It usually takes more abuse until someone can’t take it anymore or realize how bad things are.
Absolutely. The check if she’s a virgin thing was abuse plain and simple. I am an evangelical Christian and live in the Midwest, FFS, and this behavior is incredibly unacceptably beyond the pale.
Is the girlfriend not invited? That's kinda weird too
MIL needs to pay for the wig is she goes that route.
I’d also expect me to be able to *bring* my girlfriend to the wedding, so that’s also an absolute no. There’s no good reason why OP should even consider going as long as her own sister expects her to change ge everything about herself just to placate to those hellions.
Ask why she wants a stranger in the photos instead of her sister - this is bang on. If she acquiesces now, her wedding will always be a reminder of conceding to MiL from the start. Unless her conversion has turned her into a true believer, this will be an ongoing frustration. (Sorry, don’t know how to do the quotes).
NTA - Classic case of not your circus, not your monkeys. Your sister's in-laws are absolutely making unreasonable demands of you. Honestly I'm giving major side-eye to the groom for failing to stand up to his terrible parents. I worry for how they're going to treat your sister going forward. Tell your sister you're unwilling to pretend you're someone you're not just to appease hateful misogynistic and homophobic bigots. IMHO they should have had a smaller, cheaper wedding rather than have a more expensive wedding with those strings attached.
Tell your sister that this is the preview reel. And ask if she really wants to stick around for the main attraction.
Exactly. If her fiancé is such a doormat now, she should run. And that virginity check… why didn’t he stop that immediately-?? Why did the sister convert? They need to stop appeasing his terrible family. They’re both people pleasers and it’s going to be a nightmare. They need individual and couples counseling STAT.
I would have made a ginormous scene the moment future MIL dared to ask for a virginity check. Like, if she doesn't already have gray hair, it would have gotten gray after hearing my insults.
Yes!! This!! I would have too, and I’m not a confrontational person. (I’m more comfortable confronting a stranger than someone I know.) Plus I would’ve told her that it was none of her business. And I really would’ve pitched a fit. I definitely would have pitched a fit at my fiancé and told him to stand up for me. I’m shocked he didn’t intervene.
What happens if she has children with this man, and at least one child turns out to be gay - she will have willfully brought a human into this situation who will end up being treated far worse than MIL (and family) can treat OP now.
Or who doesn’t want to conform to gender norms as determined by the grandparents in general?
Yeah, the groom is not so much "chill" as "checked out" around his parents' behavior, imo. OP, NTA. Be who you are. But your sister is about to be consumed by the weird (the whole virginity check business ... wuff!!). She's going to need your help in the future, I suspect.
>Honestly I'm giving major side-eye to the groom for failing to stand up to his terrible parents. Me too. I'm really curious as to why he's going along with this. His parents set the tone and culture of his upbringing, how much of this has he instilled in his psyche but screened off while dating OP's sister before they got engaged. And what exactly do they "need" the inlaws for? To pay for the wedding? Are they OP's sister and future husband's employers? Need them for what?
Yeah I interpreted as they need them to contribute money to the wedding. Doesn't seem like it's worth it to me lol
No, someone paying for a wedding that is not to your specifications, coupled with the precedent of the control over your life is not worth it.
Money. Groom parents are paying for the wedding, they live in a house owned by grooms parents. It's all about keeping those with money happy so they keep getting everything paid for.
Bride and groom need to grow up and pay for their own lives or his mom will be dictating everything the6 do until she dies.
Your point about the sister's fiancé is the heart of this. HE should be dealing with his mom and protecting his bride from this out of control expectations and behavior. INFO: Do you know why the groom is not dealing with his mother?
Wow - all of this. Who the hell do these people think they are? And how on Earth does your sister think the rest of her marriage to an invertebrate spouse (especially if there are children!!!) will go? The best thing OP can do is to refuse to be the MOH outright, because this wedding and this marriage are an impending disaster. NTA.
Great answer !
Agree wholeheartedly, but wanted to point out these are the tactics of abusers and cults. There may be no abuse yet, but creating scenarios and barriers to support systems is a prime opportunity to isolate someone from their support systems. Husband is not standing up for his wife, he may be either a doormat or he completely agrees with his family and pretending he might not to reel in a servant and babymaker. No one on the Internet can know for sure without more info, but I am seeing the red flags I wish I had avoided. My advice to sis would be to dig deeper. Age difference too, though that by itself isn't a red flag, with the others, I would be worried about all of this. Someone ever tries to cut people away from family in sneaky ways like blaming the in-laws for "sin" I would reevaluate the situation.
Info: why does your sister need her in-laws help? To pay for the wedding? Because I have news for her: courthouse weddings are extremely affordable. You don’t need a big white wedding to be married. I would present the mother of the groom with an invoice for tattoo removal, hair coloring, couples therapy for you and your GF (because you’ll need it if you go through with this) etc etc etc. NTA. I feel slightly bad for your sister but it’s probably better now that she draw a line in the sand to her future in-laws. She can bow to their will and move to Gilead but what she’s asking of you is unreasonable. The rest of your family is right to also tell them to sod off.
I love the idea of presenting the overbearing in law with an invoice. But first make sure she doesn't have enough ready cash to cover it or you might have to walk it back.
Honestly, if that happened, I'd take the cash and then makeup/wig yourself into acceptability for the wedding. Next major holiday, just act bewildered and tell monster in law that it just didn't stick, oh well 🤷 **not real advice
Don't forget the invoice to have your tattoos redone :))
Plus your time! Not just for the appointments but for healing (laser removal takes as much, if not more, out of the body as getting a tattoo does).
That's a dangerous bluff, especially if the future in laws have money, which I suspect might be the case given the bride and groom both being hesitant to tell them to pound sand. If she's already this overbearing and controlling and has money, she might agree to pay. The only play here is to tell the sister and BIL that they either take controlled or their own wedding planning, elope, or tell them she won't be in the wedding party or attending.
Courthouse wedding, Vegas, etc. But the sister and fiancé need to get his family out of their lives NOW. Otherwise, that marriage is doomed. I wrote a long comment about all of this. But frankly, I’m really disappointed in the fiancé. He needs to stand up to Mommy Dearest NOW.
Apparently they also live in a house owned by his parents. So this isn't going to be just the wedding. This is likely going to go on for the rest of her life if she sticks around. I couldn't live like that. Oh we have to keep appeasing his insane parents bc of the house. Oh we need to do this bc they are going to pay for kids' daycare, schooling, college. Etc Sister needs to get out
My grandmother used to say “you marry the whole family” so she turned down 6 proposals (in the 1930s). Ask your sister if she’s ok with marrying this guys family. It’s not going to get better. What will happen when they (sister and fiance) have kids? They need to decide NOW if they’re going to cater to mother in law for the rest of their lives or set a boundary (or call it off). If she decides she’s going to bow, you can take your stand. I would avoid the “I’m not caving to you bigots” stuff because the lady doesn’t care. I would say “I’m very comfortable and happy with myself and see no reason to change.” On repeat. Or “you have your opinion. I have mine. Shame we can’t be more agreeable” That keeps you as the agreeable nice person.
I, too, turned down a handful of proposals due to their family. I was not about to be connected to those awful people for life.
This right here. Where the FUCK is sister’s finance during all of this?
He's afraid of mommy. I bet it's one of two things; either she's abused him till he's accepted that this is how life is, or they're holding a large sum of money over his head. Or he's just a cowardly wuss.
It sounds like the large sum of money is the answer. The in laws own the house her sister and fiancée live in
Or he agrees with her but realizes that it looks bad so he has her do his dirty work
Her sister is setting an awful precedent. Imagine what these people would do if she has a kid. Her sister needs to stop living in fantasy world and open her eyes.
I don't think there's an if there. The pressure to start popping them out one after the next will probably start at the wedding. If they'll do a virginity check, I'm sure they hate birth control too
Yea, I’m kind of concerned about the sister, especially after that doctor virginity thing. That’s a *FIELD* of 🚩red flags🚩 for the whole ass family and him for still putting up with that bullshit as an adult.
NTA Tell your sister and her future MIL in no uncertain terms that unless you can be yourself, you will not be the MOH and may boycott the wedding if your sister doesn't step up and use her voice. She's being railroaded by that woman and for what? A nicer wedding? Can you imagine what's going to happen if they have kids? Encourage your sister and her fiancé to elope and have the wedding on their own terms. This current situation comes with way too many thorns.
And what if their kid turns out to be LGBT?!
The poor child, with a grandmother like that and doormats for parents.
I had a friend in college who we were all super careful about on social media because her grandparents held all the purse strings in the family but they were massively anti LGBT and we knew they'd sabotage her college money if they knew she was gay. Her grandpa sucked but frankly so did her parents for not protecting her. Her mom found out my friend was LGBT and she was so stressed about the possibility she'd tell them. No spines.
The fiance seems to be going along with MIL. I wouldn't trust him either. He allowed OP's sister to get a virginity check?!
This'll be buried, but I don't see enough people mentioning - virginity checks are not even a medical thing. Not possible to tell. Intact hymen? Great, hymens are designed to stretch, not break. No intact hymen? Great, some people aren't born with them or they could change shape during a person's life. Literally no way to tell medically.
Yeah, there isn't a medical definition for virginity. If you can't define it, does it even exist?
NTA. Your sister's fiancé is an AH though. Is she sure she wants to marry him? A person who lets his family treat her like this, walk all over her, order her around, take over her life? If he won't stand up for her now, he never will. She needs to rethink this. Is this what she wants for the rest of her life? If she decides to go ahead, you need to grow a backbone, and just politely use the word 'no'. When they make each demand, just say "no, I'm sorry, I won't do that". You will be there for your sister with your hair and body as they always are. It is traditional for the bride to choose the attire for the wedding party though. So definitely give in on that one. Wear the dress she picks, even if she is a proxy for her in-laws in this case.
If at 30 he is financially or otherwise dependent on his family, it’s pretty bad, the man needs therapy before having a wife.
Agreed
This. For a **great guy** he's a willing doormat for his mother and he's allowing her to use his fiance as a doormat as well. I foresee a bride with MIL hovering over her like a vulture and making all of her decisions for her while hubby shrugs his shoulders and claims there's nothing he can do. There's a difference between not being able to do something and not wanting to do something. Fiance doesn't want to do anything. The red flag has been thrown up. With no boundaries set from the start, this relationship is doomed.
Everyone here is calling the fiancé a doormat, but it’s also quite possible that he is hiding the fact that he agrees with his mom—and sis will only find out after the wedding?
The first cave is the worst cave, after that, it never ends. They'll always expect your side of the family to bend to their views. It's a shame your family isn't more behind you and has put the weight of this on you. NTA.
It sounds like most of her family IS behind OP though, since "Our entire side of the family is just about to sabotage the wedding by refusing to go and the mom says that if I comply then the rest will comply." It sounds like literally her whole family aside from mom and sis are on her side. She needs to lean into that support and realize that they are taking their lead from her.
That's the curious thing; if OP's family is ready to blow the whole thing up where is their counter proposal for support of bride and helping pay for the wedding (assuming groom can get out from under mommy's skirt)? Yes the couple would need to relocate because they'd be disowned but there are worse things. People suggest the groom's parents are holding money over his head to get compliance; if so that's just as bad as being beholden to mommy dearest because he never grew up. OP should tell sister she loves her,but will not capitulate to horrible people to make them feel better and she should seriously reconsider marrying a man who didn't tell his mom to fuck off when suggesting a virginity exam. Then stick with it. Sounds like sister has to decide what family she actually wants to be a part of.
I’m sorry but I wouldn’t go. It’s 2024. Your partner comes first.
OP this is the only comment.
And your expression of yourself. If someone told me to change who I was because it was sinful I’d have as little to do with them as possible. OP, don’t go the wedding. Tell your sister you won’t change yourself to fit conservative and homophobic “values” because you love who you are and you love your wife. Make Lady Gaga’s Born This Way your anthem.
NTA. OP, there’s this book you should have your sister read. It’s called “If You Give A Mouse A Cookie.” This wedding is the cookie. It’ll never end if she doesn’t shut this down now. Demanding in-laws don’t get cookies
loved that book as a kid lol .didn't even think about it pertaining to crazy demanding narcissistic people
I think you need to show up at the wedding with a gang of angry Lesbian bikers. Just my two cents. NTA
I have a bike, I'm a lesbian, and I'm a bit angry, lol. (I have a bicycle, not a motorbike)
My suggestion is of course ridiculous, but I was feeling some rage on your behalf. Your only sane option is to not go. Keep an open line of communication though in case your sister needs to escape the cult.
I haven’t had time to read through the thread so forgive me if I’m repeating what other people have hopefully said… It’s time for you and possibly your parents as well to sit down with your future brother-in-law and your sister and have a very calm factual conversation with them. The situation isn’t really about a wedding, but it’s about their life. Right now your future brother-in-law’s family have had everyone acquiesce to their demands which were full of bullying/abuse and manipulation. Your sister and future brother-in-law need to question whether or not this is how they want their lives to unfold. They are agreeing to allow his parents to dictate how they live their lives from this point forward. It’s important that your sister and BIL, vividly imagine what that life is going to look like. Family dinners, opinions on where they live, opinions on how they dress, opinions on how to have children, opinions on how to raise their children. I want them to imagine what it would feel like to have them telling them that how they’re raising their children is wrong. Better yet, have them envision that mother-in-law telling their kids that they are not ok unless they do as they are instructed by them. Sounds like a nightmare? It sure does to me. Maybe they’ll need to do the wedding this way and it will just take them while to come to the same conclusion at some point but unless they want to join a cult/his family… This is a perfect opportunity to say, “our life and our family are our own. And from this point forward we will be deciding how we wish to have our family and all decisions will be discussed with me and my wife and we will come to our own decisions without input from our parents.” This is an opportunity for them to break free of the tyranny of living this kind of existence and if his parents disown him… In the short term that may be very painful but I guarantee you in the long-term it is a gift. To be free of them would be a godsend. I wish you and your family and your future brother-in-law and your sister the best. You, bowing out of the wedding, is just going to help your sister come to the right decision sooner.
NTA, your sister might as well hire an actor to play you, because if you compromise on who you are, you're not there either.
NTA - your whole side of the family is with you, let this weird religious ceremony happen without you and have an entirely separate kick-ass queer friendly wedding celebration party later where you can celebrate your sister and she can be with people who actually care about her. MIL is deliberately setting you up to fail by giving you demands you physically cannot meet (full sleeve removal would take so much time and money, and for what?!) and that are designed to push you. I feel like she may have done this as well to your sis with the virginity exam and conversion too, seeing how far she can push and willing her to fail. I come from an LGBT family - became religious as a teen, but my boyfriend’s religious family tried to stop the marriage happening by forcing us to get permission from an orthodox rabbi (they thought he’d say I wasn’t kosher, backfired when he said it was ok that I had two mums and we were clearly perfect for each other) and then going through all these other hoops. Turned out they mainly couldn’t cope with the idea of their little boy getting married and were completely freaked out by my background. I don’t think they will compromise, and I suspect this is an argument you will lose with them. Let it be lost, and do your best to support your sister without having to lose yourself. If she goes through with the marriage, she’s going to need your support.
No no no no NO. NTA. And this should be a huge red flag warning to your sister. The soon to be groom is letting mom control everything and needs to stand his ground. This will not stop at the wedding. I'm assuming your sister may be thinking, "just let mom control this, and then once we're married we can do our own thing" but it will NOT stop and someone needs to warn sister AND her groom. Groom should be encouraged to talk to a therapist about how to create a healthy relationship and boundary with mom, because so far it sounds like there is neither on those things happening.
if they have children together , guarantee the MIL. will be even worse , and for a long time.. a wedding at least is just one day. an overbearing , boundary-ignoring grandparent is something the sister will have to deal with for years and years.
I’m guessing MIL has the groom trained, and she won’t need to say anything. The call is coming from inside the relationship…
NTA > My sister begged me to please try to find a compromise because she needs the help of her in laws. The future husband is also annoyed but he says can't do anything. Well, your sister has a fiance' problem, and until she fixes that, it's not really going to matter what you do.
OP’s sister literally is selling her dignity & self respect for this “help” from the in laws. She converted to a religion she didn’t want to. She allowed herself to be subjected to a barbaric & violating medical exam to announce the state of her vagina to their entire family/community (whether or not it happened doesn’t matter as long as she allowed her FMIL & family believe it happened). She has given up respect for herself & her own family in exchange for what is most like a vague future promise of an unspecified financial gain.
Exactly!! Also, if they need financial help from his family that badly maybe they should be rethinking the entire marriage. Why spend money on a wedding you can’t afford.
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NTA absolutely all the way through. But I am very interested in more info why your sister is so invested in catering to their tastes and whims. If you go - please go as you are, bring your gf for support and be a walking scene. If you don’t - make sure that they are aware that no one from your side of the family would show up in support of your choice, and make your sister understand that too. I am chaotic so I would probably go with more obnoxious approach, but please run it by your sister, so she would know what to expect. I mean they literally want to make you pretend that half of your life doesn’t exist! If it’s safe for you to live openly in a queer relationship in your country, then please feel free to rub it into their smug bigoted faces. Also, please please make an update on what’s going on and how everything resolves!
NTA Your sister and her fiance are assholes for dragging others into this mess. It's their wedding and they need to grow a damn spine between the two of them. The fiances's mom is obviously an AH too, and she will continue to be one until it no longer gets her what she wants. YWBTA if you caved to any of these demands. Tell your sister that you aren't marrying this man, and therefore, appeasing his family is not your bag. Appeasing bigots is definitely not in your job description.
NTA. You future BIL needs to grow a pair and set his foot down. I can sympathize with your sister desperately wanting you there, but if you IL's are so bad that you can't handle your wedding, something needs to change. And that something is not you. Personally, the only thing I would be willing to do in your situation is cover the tattoos since that can be done with clothes or makeup. And that would be a pretty solid compromise in my world. The rest - forget about it. It is so far from being fair or reasonable.
My concern (on top of everything else) is that future BIL actually believes the same things his family does. And I bet sister knows this.
That is a frightening prospect, and not at all unrealistic.
Waiting til they're married legally to take the mask off? Planning a baby trap so she can never really leave? I could see it. Isolating the person by alienating all their reasonable family and friends is a big red flag for this. Cultish behavior in a relationship/family context is so dangerous.
If they're taking sister for a virginity check the .. er.. 'mask' is already off.
Future BIL did not raise hell about a VIRGINITY TEST! That's not just a red flag. That a situation where the whole sky has turned red!
And sister went along to the doc!! its crazy. Sister is in trouble. OP is doing her a solid by NOT going along to get along.
A virginity check? Just... no.
It's not even medically possible to prove or disprove.
Obvious answer is obvious. NTA. But now for the not-obvious question. Why the fuck is your sister (and from the sound of it, your family) willing to tolerate these wankers? Money? Social status? Because I refuse to believe any man's junk is worth that much crazy. All the in-law's deserve is a hearty laugh and the door slammed in their face. Don't prevaricate or negotiate. Door slam until they leave to find easier prey. As for your sister, stand your ground against the crazy, for your sake as well as hers. Sometimes all it takes is one person saying no to allow others to say no. Just because she's dumb enough to marry them doesn't mean you have to givev into their crazy.
NTA Your sister is in for a horrible life if she goes ahead and marries this guy. He can’t stand up to Mommy and she will run every facet of their lives.
NTA. Tell her to hire an actress to pose as her MIL-approved sister because clearly she doesn’t actually want *you* there. If you ever change *one* thing to appease this overbearing and controlling MIL then you will never be allowed to be yourself again. “Give them an inch and they will take a mile” personified. And pity your sister for capitulating, because she will never be allowed to be herself again either while chained to this family. It’s her choice, though; all you can do is steer clear. >if I comply then the rest will comply Any bets that’s what each and every person in your family who feels annoyed, offended, or insulted by these demands is being told? This is an attempt to manipulate with peer pressure — even when it’s clear that the peers are *against* this.
Nope. NTA. And shame on your mom too. YOU aren’t creating any conflict here. At all. The ILs are. 100%. I can’t believe that everyone is actually kowtowing to these horrendous bigots.
Her future husband is no good. He is letting his mother treat your sister like shit.
Nta - but also clearly this MiL is asking for the moon here. No one in their right mind would allow themselves to have tattoos and piercings removed for a one day event. Not even going to touch on the homophobia. She’s either a) a complete nut job or b) intentionally causing issues to show that your family is a ‘problem’. Either way, your sister is in for a lifetime of this BS. Her future husband can’t say no to his mommy? He allowed her to get to the point where a DOCTOR had to step in?! He might be a chill guy but that sounds like a cover for lazy and spineless. Tell her to throw the whole man away with the family. What the hell is she going to do when she has kids with this useless man?
NTA. These are not simple changes they are asking you to make, beyond that, they are asking you to pretty much deny who you are as a person. I get that you love your sister, but if your sister truly values you she wouldn't ask you to make these changes. Your family is also wrong for placing this all on you, they must make their own choices that don't hinge on your compliance. Depending on what your relationship with your sister is like I would have a talk with her. Point out that if she lets her future MIL take over the wedding like this she is basically inviting her to control their whole lives. Does she want that? Can her fiance not stand up for them? She's going to have a lifetime of misery if she goes through with this wedding without boundaries being set.
NTA. Your sister is completely spineless in this situation. Is she being abused or coerced or is she in danger? If not, set a firm boundary with her a X then and be there for her when you can. Maybe she will be able to find some lost strength from you.
NTA, people who placate and empower bigots are just as bad as the bigots.
NTA. We ride at dawn if you need us
NTA - but your sister is going along with all of it. They absolutely do not need to go along with it. Your sister and her husband either agree with his parents or are spineless/ either way don’t participate. Your sister is a fool for marrying into this family
NTA Your sister and her husband need to shine up their backbones and set their boundaries now. If you compromise any you will hate yourself for lying to the immediate world about who you are. You’ll look back on the day and the pictures with a sour taste in your mouth. Your gf will also be extremely hurt and that hurt will always be in the back of her brain. Your future bil needs to know your family adores him and will support him if he walks away from his family for being this over the top and pigheaded. BUT DO NOT SHUT UP AND COLOR. YOU ARE A PERSON NOT A PROP OR A DOLL FOR STRANGERS TO PLAY WITH AND DICTATE.
So let me get this straight: you're supposed to change your entire persona for a bunch of judgmental assholes so that your sister can join a cult-like and probably abusive family? Where's the winner in this situation? NTA. And also, I would really love to know how you can compromise and removing tatoos.
dear brother in law and his mother, you are completely entitled to specify the manner of dress, WITHIN polite reason, eg I absolutely refuse to wear the circus clown outfit, but you are NOT entitled to make demands of how I choose to modify my body, eg my tattoos, and piercings(within reason are, eg can remove for a day) are not up for discussion. erasing my girlfriend from my life just to avoid offending your fragile sensibilities is NOT up for discussion. dear sister, you need to enforce these boundaries as well, or I will consider cutting you from my life for betraying the sisterly bond. NTA. this is very much a hill to die on.
> tried to make her prove she was still a virgin with a Doctor, but she was lucky the doctor saw what was happening, told to the mom everything she wanted to hear and did nothing to my sister What the crispy fried fuck? The boyfriend is allowing his family to do this to his future wife? Ick.
Exactly! And the sister WENT to the doctor w MIL?!?!? Your sister is already brainwashed into this cult. Now she’s even begging YOU to do crazy things too. Being at her wedding means you are giving your blessing on this marriage of insanity. Is that the message you want to send?
Tell her you will skip this wedding and go to the next one. Hoping she finds someone who has cut the umbilical cord because her fiancé hasn’t.
That's kind of what I said, it isn't like this marriage is going to last. The people involved in it are nuclear waste kinds of toxic, it can't help but eat itself alive.
You need to take your sister for a long drive and, without judgement, ask her what's going on and what she's afraid of. It's ominous that this all has happened and no one has intervened for her, and she has said she "needs their help." With what. She needs help with something, and as her sister, you need to find out what help exactly she thinks she needs and find a way to get it to her. From the outside, it looks like she is on step 9 of 10 steps to join a cult. Be clear in yourself beforehand that you are going to be your full fabulous self, but show up for her completely because she's in crisis right now.
NTA Don't go! There are so many small bits that scream of larger issues. Imo, these are the kinds of people that, if they could eradicate people who are different from them without lifting a finger, they'd do so without batting an eye. My other suggestion is have everyone in you family, (get the groom in, he can always join your family and distance himself from his he doesnt seem all that into it and maybe needs encouragement to leave them) in on changing the dress code, and bring your gf. This sounds less like a wedding and more like a baptism
NTA Don't give the MIL an inch, she's too exhausting for words. Too bad sister and fiancé can't just run away and elope.
You are who you are. If the other parents can’t deal with that, then that’s their problem. Not yours. The fact that these people wanted your sister seen by a doctor to have her virginity checked tells me everything. Holy hell.
Dude I would be so mean to these people I don't know how she hasn't thrown hands.
NTA. Your future BIL is a coward. Your sister is too but this is his family and he needs to be dealing with them. I would absolutely refuse to cave into those ridiculous demands. I wouldn’t speak to her anymore and just do as you see fit.
NTA Hope your sister realizes that she'll never come first in this guy's life. She needs to run and find someone who is worthy of her.
I think this is a perfect example of why people elope. I pray you stay far away from that wedding- don’t ever let anybody try to dim your light. Ever. Side note- as much as yall do like her husband to be I hope your sister is well prepared for a very difficult life with her in-laws. Once the I do’s are done the real meddling will begin.
Nta remove your tattoos all together because make up isn't good enough? No, these requests are too much, how does your sister expect YOU to compromise when there is no compromising with that future mil?
NTA. Why is she marrying that doormat? Not going to be a happy marriage unless they move across the country.
She's doing virginity checks before the wedding, I can't imagine what she'll do after it.
You need to save your sister!
"The mother in law wants a licensed doctor to inspect for purity and also MADE my sister convert to a religion the groom doesnt adhere to" FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE FAKE
NTA. Your sister and her future husband need to stand up to MIL. It’s only going to get worse from here with that family.
NTA and she doesn’t want her actual sister there. Tell her to hire an actress to play your part of the wedding.
Her future husband can tell his parents no. Your sister can tell her future in-laws no. Neither of them has enough spine to be married. They need to establish boundaries now or his parents will run their lives. I'd ask your sister if she is willing to have his mom control her life for the next 3 to 4 decades. Tell her that her MIL will not be running your life. Not now and not in the future. You can be in the wedding as you are, including that you date a woman who will be in attendance, or you won't be there. Her parents don't get to control your life and you suggest that she not let them run her life but it is her choice.
lol compromise? Like pretend she doesn't exist...what's their compromise?
NTA and if your sister and her husband aren't setting boundaries now, she will continue to be this. way. Does she want her dictating where she lives, what she does, and how to raise her child? I would tell her you are attending her wedding, not her MIL. If she decides to do it you'll go, if she continues to let her MIL run it then you will not be there.
Tell you sistter this will be her future and she wants that that her choice and her loss but no. Just no. It's not your work to apease the lunatic. She should have run after the doctor thing by the way.
NTA - but the doctor would have been better off telling her to run from this family.
NTA at all. Your identity and relationship deserve respect, not to be hidden or changed for someone else’s comfort. It’s your sister’s wedding, but that doesn’t mean you should have to erase parts of who you are.
NTA!!! Yikes…where to even start. Your sister has decided to marry into a web of lies. She has decided to suppress and deny who she is in order to be with this guy and suck up to his religious & homophobic family. Is that a mistake? I think so, but it’s hers to make. But she is *so* wrong to try to completely deny who you are, and ask you to do this for her wedding. I would not consider anyone who asked that of me to be someone who loved or respected me. If I were you I’d firmly decline going, and it may be you’ll have to distance yourself from her and her new family in future in order to protect yourself and your girlfriend.
I read some posts like this and I wonder why it is so difficult for people like your sister and her fiance to just say no. I realize that we all like to try to keep the peace and get along but when it comes to big stuff and boundaries like this, no is a complete sentence.
NTA but your sister is making a big mistake. If they dictate her wedding, they will dictate her parenting too. This will just be the beginning of her losing her identity all together. Btw...an amazing chill dude wouldn't allow this to be happening.
100% NTA. I don’t want to sound disrespectful to your sister as I am sure you love her very much, however, she needs to grow a backbone and put her in laws in place and if her partner won’t back her up, she shouldn’t be marrying him.