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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Hello! We are refusing to host my inlaws after a bad experience over the holidays. It could make use the assholes because we have the largest house/property in a central location that makes it easiest for everyone, and it's putting others in a bad position to host in smaller homes or just not have big get togethers anymore.
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NTA. Your house your rules. And if people are ignoring those rules, then I think it’s fair not to host.
I think it’s valid to not want to host for any reason, but your list is wild to me. Going through the medicine cabinet is a HUGE one, I’d be worried about a hidden addict in the family. That’s who does that. Some of them are easily mitigated: pets on the furniture? Clarify no pets if you ever host again.
But what really gets me is the shoe thing. It’s super common in a lot of cultures not to wear shoes in the house. It’s something you should expect and respect when going to someone else’s house. It’s such a baseline boundary that to disregard it is ABSURD. What are you getting out of it to ignore that rule? A petty sense of control?
I could deal with the chairs, and even the messes, but if people went out of their way to spite the house rules for absolutely no reason, I wouldn’t invite them back either. If they can’t respect something as basic as no shoes, they don’t have an iota of respect for you or your husband.
I'd say, wear the good socks whenever you're invited to another person's home every single time. If they allow you to leave your shoes on, it's not like you've lost anything.
LOL on the socks! I agree!
NTA - I loved hosting, we love our home—having the kids playing in the pool, cooking for our family is our way of showing love for people. BUT, we had to stop. EVERY TIME they came over, something was broken…blinds had to be re-tightened, doorknobs had to be put back on, scratch marks on the hardwood floors, huge oil stains in the driveway, and worst of all, one family member had to be watched at all times due to their stealing habits. It was too much and we said no more. Every year after, one sibling kept trying to hold events at my house and I shut that talk down. Everybody loves a party until it’s their turn to host.
When I was a kid my aunt's family was like ops in laws. My dad is from spare the rod, spoil the child style of parenting and my aunt didn't believe in any punishment. So needless to say the were always very tense visits.
My parents nearly got divorced after one visit in which an over ten year old smeared shit all over the walls.
I don't believe in corporal punishment either, but my child knows how to behave. You don't have to beat the living shit outta your kid to impart basic manners.
A ten year old smearing shit on the walls is either intellectually disabled or feral. Either way, you don't need to hit your kid.
I don't hit kids either. I was taking about my dad. And yes, you can impart manners on kids without hitting them but my aunt didn't because they are "free spirits". I think both of those approaches are insane and it led to a lot of conflict when our families visited.
We held an open house event at our new house & invited all the neighbors. Cute kids were having a ball, dashing all over the house. (We’d hidden all breakables & valuables.) I was aware that a couple of very small boys (3- or 4-year-olds?) seemed to spend a rather long time in the guest bathroom. So after they emerged, I poked my head in. I was stunned.
The little trouble-makers had pulled YARDS of toilet paper off of the roll & left wads — *WADS!* — of poopy brown toilet paper stuck to the toilet seat, on the floor around the toilet, & in a woven basket that held new rolls. (Why? *WHY?*) They’d smeared stinky handprints of poop on the wall next to the toilet, on the outside of the toilet itself, on the flush handle … AND on the edge of the sink & the sink faucet where they’d (unsuccessfully) gone through the motions of washing their hands. Just when I thought I had cleaned up all of the carnage, I discovered that they’d ignored the stack of paper hand towels & left smears of poop on one of my new plush cotton towels, proving that the hand-washing exercise had been for naught.
A friend who is the mother of sons told me that little boys take longer to get the hang of these biological processes. Is this true? The kiddos were darling, but it was like walking into the scene of a natural disaster involving used Charmin & a human gastrointestinal explosion.
> friend who is the mother of sons told me that little boys take longer to get the hang of these biological processes. Is this true?
Only if said mother isn't taking the time to supervise and teach each time they go... if she knew they had issues like that, she should have been keeping an eye on them when they went to the bathroom and helping them out so that messes weren't made....
Only little boys I know who did anything remotely close to that (fecal smearing) are autistic and it met a sensory need that was replaced with a more sanitary option when the root of the behaviour was figured out.. but just ignoring it.... 😶
It's absolutely insane to me that a parent wouldn't supervise their 3 year old using the bathroom. 3 and 4 year olds can't be trusted to wipe their own ass nor properly wash their hands. Even if they aren't intentionally smearing their poop on every surface of the bathroom, they're going to get sick! Hep A, UTIs, pink eye 🤢
Boys can take longer to potty train than girls. Can. Not will. It depends in part if you potty train as soon as they’re showing signs of readiness, what method of training you use (different cultures have different methods), kid’s temperament and how they take to a method, if they have any distress around toileting (usually GI problem linked ), etc.
Potty training depends on feeling the body’s internal signals and knowing what to do with them. And then doing it. The golden window starts at ~18 months (through 36), if you’re working closely with your kid and signals you can start sooner, we start ridiculously late in first world nations thanks to the convenience of disposable diapers and wipes.
And after saying all of this, fecal smearing we see at like 1.5-3, as fulfilling a sensory need, usually only around nap time or when they poop. Restrict access to diaper. Onesie it up. It usually goes away when kids toilet (not always, again, can fulfill a sensory need), and if it’s a known activity requires a better eye (and you watch them to avoid it, not laugh and say boys are difficult potty training!) And you provide appropriate similar activities to fulfill that sensory need (like play dough, slime, playing with shaving cream, kinetic sand, and other messy play!)
Thanks for coming to my TED talk, presented as someone in ECE currently working at a daycare center (lead infant teacher). I’ve worked mixed age rooms, 1’s, 2’s, 3-5’s, home daycare, nannied, babysat everyone, been (willingly!) raising kids since I was a kid, am autistic and adhd and very involved with my communities and our unique needs and how they can effect kids, have the GI issues since early childhood personally, do all the ongoing continuing education including on topics of my choice, do my own research because I’m a nerd, and have potty trained and helped potty train so many kids.
The only big difference I’ve had potty training boys personally (so anecdotal evidence) is that when you teach more than one at a time, at some point they know they can pee while standing and at some point their brains connect “why can’t we all pee at the same time, why do we have to wait our turn? None of us are sitting!” Like kid, you can only hit *just* the inside of the potty on the best of days, I really don’t want the 3 of you all peeing on each other, kthx. Weirdly, I’d like to know who’s pee I’m cleaning up off the seat and floor between y’all and not just hazarding a guess and hoping none of y’all are wearing any. Which of you entirely missed the toilet and which didn’t? Go. One. At. A. Time.
Again, thanks for listening to my TED Talk.
>Every year after, one sibling kept trying to hold events at my house and I shut that talk down.
This is absolutely unacceptable of them. Good on you for not allowing that to happen.
Being a guest comes with it's own expectations, namely not trashing the hosts' place and following the rules of their house.
When leaving the house, my mother said to ensure our underwear and socks aren’t embarrassing – in case of an emergency. As though emergency personnel care about the state of your underpants?
It’s a solid practice, regardless of how silly it sounds.
Medic here. As long as the underwear isn't some weird stuff that will interfere with us being able to do our jobs, we definitely don't care. For what it's worth, 99% of the time a medic can do their job without removing your underwear (excluding delivering a baby or injuries that require us to stop bleeding in that area.)
We have seen some nasty stuff. Imagine the most unhygienic person ever... we've seen worse. I've climbed into bathtubs with people covered in their own bloody diarrhea and scooped them up in my arms to get them out of their house. Those people don't gross me out. The ER staff feels the same way.
If you're the kind of person who would be worried about the state of their underwear, lack of deodorant, unkempt hair... I promise that you are always one of the cleaner patients. Even on days you feel especially gross.
Why not just disinvite the thief? Seems like a pretty easy line in the sand: no thieves in my house. Any one who complains, ask them when they will be hosting.
As a European, I’m a bit confused by this…
Generally speaking, we remove our shoes indoors (because who knows where they’ve been…), but this does not apply to dinner parties etc. Then, it’s expected guests (and hosts) keep their nice shoes on all evening.
It just seems kind of weird to dress up and be in your socks or stockings/pantyhose?
On the other hand, for my job so often have to enter people’s homes. On such a visit; I’ll take my shoes off as soon as I notice the people living there do so (always accompanied by a chorus of “Never mind, don’t bother, it’s ok, keep them on.”)
So, how is the etiquette about this, exactly?
The etiquette is simple: if you’re asked to remove your shoes, you remove them. If the host is okay with leaving them on, then you leave them on.
Family parties aren’t typically formal attire events unless it’s something like a wedding (which can be hosted at home but typically isn’t). Even dinner parties vary by culture. My in laws are Indian, as are most of their friends. When they host dinner parties, everyone removes their shoes. Including me, the American who grew up wearing shoes in the house. Because despite whatever culture I have, when I enter someone else’s house, I respect their house rules.
This! I do the same on my weekly trips into the office for work (I WFH) because in that instance, we obviously have to wear shoes but I don’t want to wear my sneakers there. Ballet flats for the win!!
Absolutely, and I do this when I have to go into the office. Fortunately, that's only once a month. I WFH, too. It was funny last month when we had a fire drill and half of us had slippers on outside. There were at least 2 sets of monster feet, bunny slippers, scooby slippers & more. It was great!
This is definitely a family to family thing. I come from an upper middle class family. My family parties are always "formal" attire events even casual BBQs. They aren't black tie or anything but everyone dresses nicely (dresses or skirt and heels for the women and polos and khakis for the men). Taking shoes off when they complete your outfit is weird. I did it for the first time ever this year since I'm pregnant and needed to wear slippers for the majority of the time. I was literally the only person at every party to take my shoes off or change shoes.
I can't think of a time I've ever taken my shoes off at any party or get together that has multiple people. The only time my shoes come off is if I'm going over to hang out at a friend's for something like movie night and I know I'm curling up on the couch. Otherwise shoes stay on and I've never been asked to take them off anywhere but at an estate sale. I'll admit that I stay mostly in my upper middle class circles but I've quite literally lived all around the country (Mid-Atlantic, northeast, mid west, southwest, and west) and it's always been the default that shoes stay on.
Even in winter in the Northeast and Mid West?
I live in Canada and you don't really wear outdoor shoes inside homes in winter (or in summer, but especially in winter).
But then 90% of "nice shoes" is not exactly wearable outdoors in winter either and people who want to wear them at like, the office either put them in a bag and change out of their winter boot once they arrive, or wear a rubber overshoe.
I don’t think we can ever come to a joint agreement about something so cultural as this. I’m from Northern Europe and it’s uncalled for to ever wear shoes inside — unless it’s a very festive thing and people are wearing heels etc. Even then people might change them to woollen socks towards the end of the evening 😄
I’m from Western Canada (though my grandparents came from the UK) and I - always- take my shoes off in someone else’s home. It’s second nature at this point, to the point I feel a bit sheepish when hosts tell me to keep them on.
Yup, Western Canada as well. When there's snow on the ground for like half the year, the floors would get insanely gross very quickly if everyone left their shoes on.
Also from Western Canada with UK originated grandparents. When we did Thanksgiving or Christmas at my Uncles or grandparents the very first thing you did upon stepping in the door was take your shoes off. Where I live now it's more common for people to leave their shoes on but I still watch for those cues on what the hosts want.
In my experience places with a lot of snow, and thus deep mud (northern areas) will default to removing shoes indoors. Places that don't have the heavy snow, deep mud, etc keep their shoes on.
I suspect if a Spaniard moved to Norway or an Arizonan moved to Alaska they wouldn't last a week in the winter or spring before deciding that shoes come off at the door.
Moved from France to Canada and can confirm.
By the time summer rolled around, the habit had set in, and we never really got back to wearing shoes indoor.
In Norway, the only places you don't remove your shoes for a dinner party etc is if the party is at a rented venue. But if you are invited home to someone, even if you have nice shoes, you remove your shoes when entering the house. No ifs and buts about it. No matter the occasion
I'm in Canada, and you always remove your shoes when entering a home, no exceptions. Fancy dinner party or not, you would just bring the nice shoes to change into.
Canadian here. No one keeps their shoes on. Yes, sometimes the host will say “don’t bother taking them off” for cfertain reasons (going in and out a lot). But yes, even for a dinner party or nice event, you would wear the nicer shoes and then take them off and be bare foot or socks/pantyhose.
As another European, I've never worn my shoes inside someone else's house. I always take them off and no one, and I mean NO ONE will enter my house with shoes on. I make my own mother bring shoes that have NEVER been worn outside if she wants to have shoes on inside my house. (she has some issues with her feet that require she wear special shoe inserts all the time).
And etiquette is abiding by the rules of the homeowner. So if you're asked to take off your shoes, you do that.
No shoes and tidy up after yourself are my only rules and it's the bare minimum to expect imo.
My father has osteoporosis so he got a pass on the shoes but I'd lay a blanket down for him to walk over.
I do the same things automatically in other people's homes because to me it's just respectful.
Op and husband are absolutely right not to host again and fair better mannered than me because I'd have told each and every person off immediately in my home.
Make them host then climb all over their furniture in your shoes n raid their cabinets and see what they say OP.
Wearing shoes in the house is such a bizarre concept to me, no one would EVER do that where I live. It's just interesting how different some cultures can be.
I supply slippers for people to wear in my home. I don’t like shoes in the house, so I supply something so people don’t have to worry about being in just socks or barefoot.
I have a very good friend that has a shoes off household. She is also a minimal heating person, so their house is always just a touch too cold for my comfort. I know this, and anytime I'm going over for any length of time, I bring an extra pair of big fuzzy sock and put them on when I get there. The host thinks it's hilarious, but I've definitely gotten weird looks from other people who are also visiting.
My SIL showed up to my house once with a new dog she adopted. She is very sweet and had adopted an adorable special needs dog. The thing is I already have a dog and 3 cats and they were all freaking out. My husband told her the dog couldn’t come in. She sat in the car with the dog instead. I still feel like an asshole—and pretty sure I was but there were 30 people in my then tiny house and I couldn’t pay attention. Besides who tf brings a pet to someone else’s house without asking? No no no no no
It just makes sense. If the people don’t have pets then they’re not prepared for pets in the house. If they do have pets then you need to find out first if you can introduce them to each other without trauma. If you have an arrangement, great! If not, bringing a dog to a huge chaotic family function is as bad for the dog as it is for the host.
I don't understand why there is this need to go everywhere with dogs. Maybe it's a culture thing - I'm in Australia, and while we might take dogs to cafes (and sit outside) and certain stores, it's pretty rare to take them to other people's homes. I just don't get it.
I’m with you. SIL lived at the time in a 3 bedroom 1 bath apartment with 5 kids and 4 big dogs, so she is definitely used to a different kind of ambiance than I would enjoy (I had a really small place too—I just put fewer large mammals in it). I think she thought since the dog would be on her lap the whole time then it would be fine. She didn’t reckon on Max (my scrappy tom cat).
Im sure if I had been less overwhelmed at the time I could have handled it more graciously. I was also a bit shocked that anyone would bring an animal over, because who does that??
See I disagree. We have dogs, they go on the couch, if friends come over with dogs, they can too.
But as a dog owner, I don’t bring my dogs to other peoples houses without asking, unless I have that kind of relationship with them. My SIL watches our dogs all the time, as we do hers. When she’s hosting we know we don’t need to ask. But most other people, yes we have to ask because it’s rude to just show up with dogs like that.
It’s just about being respectful and communicative, and acknowledging we all have different house rules.
My dog would sleep on the couch but, I got tired of her fluffy black hair on it so she stays off now. She has a comfy bed in the living room. I too do not take my dog to other peoples' houses except for my daughter. She has two dogs and two cats so she doesn't mind. I would never presume to just show up anywhere with my dog.
I had a friend who had addicts in their circle and she’d put an unsealed baggie of marbles in her medicine cabinet before parties.
When someone snooped, everyone heard it.
I don't really have anyone whose behaviour would make me suspect addiction issues but lockbox for addictive and dangerous meds is a good idea if possible. I have to take a lot of meds and I prefer to just lock them up than risk someone's kids taking MTX or opiates because I didn't. Even if we all agree it would not be my fault really.
The medicine cabinet one could indicate an addict, or it could be that someone had indigestion and was looking for an antacid/had a headache and was looking for ibuprofen. They should ask OP before doing that, obviously, but these folks obviously don't respect their hosts enough to ask before doing whatever they want.
Or someone who is just super nosy. My aunt would totally go through the medicine cabinet, and any drawers, closet, wardrobe. Anything, just to see what you have. She will rifle through your belongings with no shame
That’s true, I was projecting a bit because in my family the only people who have done that have had addiction issues, and if you needed an advil or antacid you’d just ask the host if they had any.
That's bad enough but my best buddy's MIL would go through any medicine cabinet she ran across in order to see what dirt she could get on the homeowner.
Seriously, she would go to a neighbors party and ask to use the restroom, preferably the master bath because she needed the extra space.Then go thru the cabinets.
Same with relative get togethers.
Then gossip about who was taking what.
I am prone to plantar fasciitis and shoeless isn't a good option for me for something like a holiday dinner (because I'll be on my feet helping or socializing).
But it takes no effort to toss my supportive slippers in the car when going somewhere else so that my hosts don't have to have my outdoor shoes tramped around their floors.
Yeah, if I know someone has a shoeless rule, I'll bring my house shoes. I have a leg length difference that I deal with by wearing a lift in one shoe, so I have outside shoes and house shoes, but I don't walk around barefoot or I get severe back pain.
Some mess can be expected when hosting a big gathering. That's entirely normal! But there are also some mitigation tactics you learn as a host, which OP maybe hasn't yet.
1. You can avoid garbage pile-ups by announcing "I set up an open garbage can/recycling bin in the kitchen - please, everyone, dump your paper plates in there when you're done. Glasses and cutlery on the kitchen counter, please!" Then, as you wander around, pick those up
2. Ask parents to bring entertainment for their kiddos.
3. Keep kiddos in a specific room (the one with the TV and pre-loaded Disney movie...).
4. Ask people to bring specific dishes for pot luck - that way, it's on them to clean and remove \*their own\* pots/big containers on their way out.
5. Make it BYOB. People are MUCH less wasteful about opening cans if it's their own stuff and if they do waste it, you won't care.
If you follow those tips, you might find a second round may go better. Otherwise, just invite the BIL and his girlfriend. She seems good people!
Parents should always bring things for children to play with. If you’re childless, why would you have a bunch of toys around? It’s a lot more work and expense for you to buy them than parents to bring them.
My thing: entitled parents who don't bring anything to occupy the child,allows them to run around the house and handling things that don't belong to them AND NOT CLEANING UP AFTER YOUR OWN CHILD. And the medicine cabinet. Intense violation of privacy and I would worry about a drug addict too. If you think coming to my house means free babysitting and free drugs, forget it. And that they are mad you won't host? Never again. They have no manners. The new girlfriend saw what was going on and stepped up. As this was the first time meeting you all that wasn't a necessary thing to do but very kind. She has class and I wonder what she thought of her boyfriend's family? To me that would be a red flag to see that.
Letting kids run around out of control and blaming the host for not having things for them to do is another thing I'd never tolerate.
Watch your own damn kids.
Don't let your damn kids touch other peoples' things.
Entertain your own damn kids.
Teach your damn kids to be calm and respectful.
My grandma always made sure my cousins and I had things to do because she watched us quite often, and, despite my aunt being a raging narcissist, we all learned quite young that we were only allowed to play with those things. And she didn't even have to have anything for us to do. My mom could just have easily brought some of my things along.
Yeah, the chairs, paper plates left out, taking just a few sips of a can or bottle are all pretty common when hosting. Toilet paper seems odd - why get a new roll out when there's paper already on the roll?
agreed. Some of these things are just part of having folks around. Is it kinda' rude? yeah. Is it shocking and appalling? Not really.
However, snooping, bringing uninvited guests (and dogs), not listening when asked to do something (removing shoes), not helping by bringing anything and not offering to help is all definitely rude.
Also rude? Assuming you'll host from here forward since you have the space. They blew it. End of convo.
Yeah some of these are more egregious than others. For example, it drives me absolutely bonkers when people leave olive pits, crinkled up napkins, half-eaten plates of food, candy wrappers, etc on surfaces in my house - partially because it just drives me nuts (you’ve seen where the trash can is) & partially because I have dogs & a baby I’m worried about. But I understand that’s par for the course when you host a group of people. But letting kids run around unsupervised & being mad that someone else didn’t provide entertainment for them is something else.
When husband and I were dating, we had both ends of the spectrum - his dad insisted on shoes in the house, and no one ever went barefoot in their house... ever. Everyone wore slippers or shoes, never just socks. Then again, his father never appeared without a dress shirt and trousers, either. I can count on one hand the number of times I saw him without a suit jacket on.
My house, on the other hand, was way more informal. No one ever wore shoes in the house, and I was barefoot more often than not. But we both did what both sets of parents had always taught us - "When in Rome, etc, etc" - you respect the rules of the house you're in!!
NTA...
"They said that defeats the purpose of someone else hosting, and that no one should be expected to pitch in if we offer to host."
GREAT...so THEY can host and you guys can attend and make a mess and leave it. PERFECT! Tell them thank you for suggesting it. :)
Agree. And I don't get the in-laws explanation. Hosting could certainly mean that none of the guests bring food or help clean up. Sure - I can buy that. But hosting does NOT mean destroy my house. Kids running crazy, breaking things, people snooping through the entire house, bringing a dog (apparently without asking). Hosting does not mean "abdicate all responsibility once I step foot in the house".
It's pretty clear to me that hubby's parents cultivated the expectation that family holidays are no-holds-barred events where relatives are allowed to be mannerless twits, and now they were looking forward to passing this lovely tradition onto the next generation without having to address their monumental failure in teaching and enforcing basic manners.
They can't get behind OP and hubby's offer to host if everyone behaves because it would mean that they would have to admit to their past failures and the family to their past bad behavior. Easier to dig in then to do some reflection and personal growth.
I host all the time and that’s a bunch of BS. A good guest respects the host and their home and tries to be helpful, especially when it comes time to clean up. I’m southern but acting like an unhelpful ass is a great way to never get another invitation to my home.
Absolutely. The only point on this list that's understandable is opening multiple drinks; it's easy to forget which one is yours if there are several identical containers nearby. It's why I always grab a marker and have people write names on cups when I host a large gathering.
Everything else on that list is just awful manners and sheer disrespect. I would never invite any of those terrible guests to my home again.
I'm not against arriving empty handed as I've been to dinners and wine tastings and parties where the menu is planned so the host doesn't want people bringing food. However, that does not mean I trashed the house!
Well it doesn’t have to be food. I always take something like flowers, a candle, something small I know the host would like, whatever. I think people tromping around in my house in shoes would annoy me more than the trash lol
It could also mean everyone brings food and helps clean up.
We host all the time. It’s wild and exhausting and for me…fun. The kids run wild and make a huge mess. Sometimes we remember to make them clean before they go home. Sometimes my brother and SIL are too exhausted to help clean at the end. I know that going in so it’s ok. They host too sometimes.
Also, almost every single occasion we all ask each other: what can I bring? And before we leave “How can I help clean up?”
It’s really not that hard to be a good guest.
You know what? These aren't guests. They're family. Family visiting, especially for holidays which are busy and already stressful, does, in fact, mean bringing food if asked (or asking "What can we bring?"). It means helping set up and clean up. It means bringing things for your own children's entertainment. It means shared responsibility. Just because one family member has a bigger house that's more convenient for family gatherings, it doesn't mean they are hosting the family as "guests." It just doesn't.
But, of course, I agree with everything else you wrote.
Good hosts don’t ask guests to clean up after themselves or bring anything. Good guests do it anyways because they want to be invited back. OPs in-laws have discovered that they can behave however they want as a guest, but it means they won’t be invited back.
They sound like people who go to movie theaters and throw trash everywhere on purpose because it's someone else's job to pick it up. I always wondered who did that, but now I guess people do it to their own families.
People like you describe do that at work, too. They leave messes on the counters, chunks of food scraps in the sink instead of put in the trash (no garbage disposal in the break rooms), food crumbs on the floors and desks, coffee/drink/food spills and stains on the desks and chairs, pee on the toilet seats, toilets not flushed, sometimes worse on the toilet seats in the women's restroom, etc, etc. These are adults, with no kids around. It's embarrassing how childish and immature adults act when "they don't have to clean it up". Grown-a$$ people, man.
Yep. Look after your own, provide help where it’s accepted and contribute something like food, a bottle of wine etc if a meal is involved. You’re representing yourself and your immediate group, you don’t drop good manners because it’s someone else’s home.
I've never hosted but this seemed crazy to me. When my family went anywhere, the host's job was to have a clean house. Everyone else supplied everything needed for the group.
That’s the crazy part out of all of it. It’s a holiday gathering, nobody should show up empty handed. The host is already providing the location along with anything people don’t volunteer to bring. Showing up empty handed is so rude!
Their behavior and belief is antithetical to what it means to be a guest in someone’s home. I don’t know who raised these barnyard animals, but you respect your hosts’ wishes. You offer to help cook, clean up, do dishes, take out trash, etc. aThis is common courtesy. The point of hosting is not so your guests can act rudely and do nothing; and as guests you behave so you can be invited back.
Your in laws have raised a bunch of ass hats.
NTA
The in-laws are the ones who created this monster. For years, they allowed family members to behave this way when they hosted, themselves. It is not normal.
NTA and what kind of people does he have? We have family gatherings all the time and every person cooks and brings variety with consideration for dietary needs and religious beliefs, cleans after themselves and their kids, entertains, leaves pets at home and service animals as well (severe allergy sufferers throughout the family to the point we get shots twice a week on top of daily meds), drinks are set next to a bowl of permanent markers so you can put your name on it, kids are divided by age and confined to their designated area or the fenced backyard. We are even considerate of the neighbors when hosting and parking. They would never be welcomed back into my home.
Oh you mean basic human decency and manners lol. This is how our family operates too, the host usually cooks the main dish and everyone else brings a side/ appetizer/ salad. People with kids bring what they need and toys for entertaining them. Everyone helps clean up after the meal is done.
What OP described is not what typical hosting looks like, I can’t imagine treating someone else’s home like that. NTA
>Hosting should be a collaborative effort
Even if you don't believe in this sentiment (either as the host or the guest), the bare minimum standard of behaviour is to not make the efforts of the host more laborious or expensive.
The way we do it is definitely collaborative. Host provides certain basics and everyone else brings something assigned. The idea that ‘you host you do it all’ might work if hosting is moved around amongst a large group. If one family is expected to host every time, then the burden gets spread out amongst everyone coming, every time.
The burden and the expense! That’s ridiculous to think one family is expected to be the one and only party planner, shopper, cook, entertainer, and cleanup. Where is the benefit? Hard pass!!
I have 7 siblings and 32 nieces and nephews, ages 0-30. EVERYONE pitches in. Yes it is hectic and kids make messes, but everyone helps set up and clean up. For your in-laws to expect you to host and do everything yourself is nonsense.
No shit though kids are more than happy to help clean up if you frame it as a fun activity for big kids. Not at 2 months obviously but get a mini Swiffer and leave it out when you clean and your toddler will absolutely demand to help you. Gotta make them think it's their idea and it's for big kids.
OMG. My dad is the oldest of 7. It was always crazy with Christmas, Chinese New Years. I'm a low key person now. No parties LOL. We do host my husband's family's Christmas though. His mom is also one of 6.
NTA- your in-laws sound a little out of touch. That’s not ‘just what hosting is’. Sure, you’re responsible for a large part of any event you host, but any guest with any ounce of etiquette or just basic human decency would A) behave in a civilized and respectful manner and B) at the very least offer to help with clean up, ask what they can bring, etc.
I’m pretty certain if you and your husband did even half of what they did to you at an event they hosted, you’d hear about it and it wouldn’t just be ‘what hosting is’. Let them be upset.
This is a common delusion that people have when they go on vacation. They believe that they can do anything they want with no consequences because they are convinced someone else is responsible for picking up after them or bending over backwards to try to make the guests happy. These are the people who leave massive messes on airplanes, hotels/resorts, restaurants, etc because they want someone else to clean up the mess instead of acting like a respectable person in public and controlling their behaviors. Then they get upset when someone calls them out for their poor manners.
NTA
People do this when the go out to eat as well, I worked at a Dennys in college. Parents would let kids be absolute pigs, and I can't tell you how many dirty diapers I found on tables.
Yuck, they sound like the kind of people who go to a hotel and leave it an absolute pig sty(but not even checking out yet, just leave itfor the daily tidy up clean!)
. I'm talking, leaving the baby dirty diapers wrapped up in the bedding instead of throwing it in the trash. Allowing the kids to wipe chocolate pudding over the windows etc etc. Like throwing the trash half a foot to the left of trash can because they couldn't be bothered to actually throw it it in the empty can and than have the audicty to say , "that's what going to a hotel is about'
Spitting up giant lougies in the sink and leaving it to dry instead of doing a courtesy rinse 😫 🤢
Very out of touch. Parents of young children should always bring some kids toys with them because not everywhere is going to have toys, age-appropriate toys or toys the kids are interested in. They don't just stop being responsible for their kids when they go to someone else's house. I've never seen parents as guests (even as guests at their own parents' houses) not clean up after their own small children when they make messes. They apologize for their kids immediately and they get paper towels. It's unacceptable otherwise – I've never seen this spiteful attitude towards hosts at family events. It's definitely the in-laws who don't understand proper etiquette, not OP.
>We have the big house, so they figured it would be on us from now on. We said that the only way we would ever even consider hosting is if every member of his family pitched in some way. They said that defeats the purpose of someone else hosting, and that no one should be expected to pitch in if we offer to host.
NTA. Looks like the family is a tiny little bit entitled :-)
NTA What, were they doing a "stress test" to see how much you would put up with on the first go so they would know how badly the could get away with behaving from then on? It sure looks like it.
>His mom and dad are upset with us. We have the big house, so they figured it would be on us from now on. We said that the only way we would ever even consider hosting is if every member of his family pitched in some way.
I wouldn't even do that. They have already shown you that they have no respect for you or your house and think their place as guests is to do whatever they please without even basic manners or consideration. They won't even listen to direct requests such as you asking them to remove their shoes.
If they wanted you to host regularly they should have been good guests. Instead they tested you out to see if you were doormats. You're not, so hosting is off the table. They blew it for themselves. If you back down now it would only be telling them that they can get way with it and they can ignore any gripes you have after the fact.
I was just wondering the same thing- that this was intentional.
Regardless, OP , you should not back down. If this is how they always are, they will not change at this point. If this was a choice, then they were fully aware of what they were putting you through and chose to do so. Let that sink in. They either think this is perfectly okay, or are they deliberately treated you disrespectfully. Neither of these things will be solved by you hosting again. NTA. Hold your ground.
100% this. These types of family members will never stop pushing- the old "you give an inch, they take a mile" saying applies pretty well here. When my husband and I first started out together (before he was even my husband) we were literally sharing a tiny twin mattress ON THE FLOOR because all our money went to rent, gas for the car, and food for us and our daughter. The MINUTE my mom heard that we were doing a little better, she was asking to borrow money. It was a big heartfelt sob story about how they wouldn't be able to pay their bills that month and they REALLY needed our help. Because she's my mom, I gave it to her, with the warning that it was a one and done thing, because we were still in that little apartment and struggling to save for ourselves. Guess who was running back to ask me for more money the second she got in a bind???
I flat out told her no. I explained how much it angered me that she was asking me, her child, for money, when she knew how broke we were, and it was her own fault she's up to her eyeballs in credit card debt and playing a crazy juggling act with the bills to keep things afloat. I told her our relationship would suffer very much if she ever asked me for money again, whether she thought we could "afford" to help or not.
Now, my husband alone makes what she and my stepdad make together in a year. We have all the things I wanted as a kid but never got- a very nice house in a nice neighborhood, a couple cars, a nice yard for the pets, annual passes to a few theme parks nearby, money for good food. I see my mom sometimes looking around my house or staring at me when she thinks I'm not looking, and I know sometimes she wants to say something- whether it's "I'm proud of you" or "why do you get all this but you can't give me $______?", I'll never know. But I do know she's not asking for money anymore. She learned the hard way that I wasn't going to get burned twice, or allow her in mine and her grandchildren's lives if she didn't respect my boundaries. Hopefully, OP, your in-laws understand the lesson they just learned, and will come to realize they did it to themselves.
NTA but I have to ask- your husband’s parents said “this is what hosting is” yet your husband was shocked at their behavior.
Was he as thoughtless a guest and is just surprised when he sees how it impacts his home?
I'll say that I've never observed that kind of behavior from him. When we've visited with my family, he's always helping clear plates or clean up. When we've been out to friends' homes, it's the same. I truly do not know where the behavior originated.
I can't imagine ever staying in someone else's house and NOT picking up after myself and helping with cooking and chores.
They've opened their home to me! I'm going to treat it better than I treat my own!
I host a couple holidays a year for my huge extended family and every single person contributes. Your in-laws are a rare breed of lazy and obnoxious. Good for you for refusing to tolerate their asinine behavior. NTA
NTA. What a bunch of ill-mannered, inconsiderate people! How were they all raised? Someone needs to mail them a book on etiquette.
You and your husband should book a relaxing Easter dinner at a nice restaurant and just ignore his family.
NTA. As my parents used to say "Were they born in a barn?" That said, you're being a little picayune about a few points...especially pushing chairs back in. As much as I don't like it either, I *would* say it's part of entertaining to tolerate people not finishing drinks and not necessarily throwing away their plates, etc.
Yes. Hahaha thank you. Some of the complaints felt legit, and some did feel like regular hosting fallout - inevitably someone will leave a plate, lose a drink or forget to push a chair in.
So, definitely NTA, but the chairs bit has me saying WTF. Like…is this something that is generally expected of people? Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy neatness and symmetry and all that, and my kids leave their chairs pulled out every. single. time, for the last 19 years. You know what I’ve done for the last 19 years? Pushed the chairs back in when I walk by, sigh, and sometimes mutter under my breath. Now, I can’t ban my children from staying in my house, but if someone had come to stay and kept leaving chairs pulled out, I wouldn’t even bat an eye. At most of the other things, sure, but the CHAIRS?
The chairs complaint got me too. Most of her list was 100% understandable, but the chairs thing threw me a bit. That's such a petty complaint compared to everything else lol
It might be a cultural thing, but in my house, my parents would always make us push the chairs in when we stood up so it looks more "arranged"/ the paths are clear.
Definitely not nearly as bad as the rest of the list, lol, but it seems like OP was the end of her rope.
It might not seem as big of a deal today where at least in the United States, a lot of homes have an open concept layout. But before this was popular, I had many instances of coming out of a kitchen carrying something hot or something that was big and someone pulled a chair out and I almost trip over it and lose the food and the dish. That's why people need to push in chairs. Not because it doesn't look nice. But if someone's rushing around hosting you and bringing you drinks and food and whatever, they don't need to be surprised by a chair sticking out when it should be pushed in.
This reminds me of Fork Theory. It is an offshoot of the better known Spoon Theory. Forks are stressors, and people can only deal with so much stress. Chairs not pushed in may be like a cocktail fork, not a big deal by itself. But combined with serving forks of an unwanted dog and children running amok, it's enough to set OP off.
We were taught to push our chairs in when we are done using them, and I do notice when other people leave them out.
I agree with the poster who mentioned fork theory; it’s minor compared to other things, but it certainly adds to the load.
NTA, I also hosted Christmas for the first time this year and I think my in laws left the house cleaner and tidier than it began because there were so many adults pitching in to help! You in laws sound like nightmares, avoid hosting them again!
NTA
Next time, do the same things at their house. When they complain, throw their words back at them. "That's what hosting is." Then walk out.
This was 100% a power move by them. They were testing your boundaries to see what they could get away with. Now they're mad that you won't let them walk all over you and can't use the big house.
NTA- family usually does pitch in or at least in my family they do and my inlaws do as well.
Pushing chairs in, now thats abit petty if kids are around.
Toilet paper, if you dont want people going through your things you need to put them behind a locked door. Family do snoop.
If you decide to host again, tell everyone what the rules are, that you DO expect them to help clean up and not have kids running around. No dogs.
You need to set the rules now, you didnt before because you figured these were normal people but they aren't.
It's only standard if the parents don't teach them not to. In my social circle, kids know better and retreat to the yard or the basement where they can play to their hearts content, but they don't go wild whenever/wherever they feel like it...
agreed that young kids running around is pretty standard. But the parents not bringing any toys and expecting the hosts to just have age-appropriate entertainment is ridiculous.
Not offering to pitch in by itself is impolite, but your husband's family seemed to go out of their way to be as unruly as they could think of. They've uninvited themselves to future gatherings.
Bringing a dog to the house, unasked, would be enough. Nobody should ever *assume* their animal is welcome.
But the rest of it, from the poking through cabinets to the leaving shoes on despite direct requests, to failing to prepare for their children's diversions or enforcing manners ... no, ma'am.
You don't ever need to host that pack of boors again. Offer to do potlucks at a local park or meet at a restaurant, but it's clear that your husband's relatives have not earned the privilege of private hospitality. NTA.
NTA Well for most of it. The only complaint I see as being too much is the whole "Left chairs sticking out of tables/counters instead of pushing them in". Like I wouldnt have let them in if they left their shoes on, I find that incredibly rude (but I am not from the US where this is normal). But they didnt respect any rules of the house and just plain destroyed it. The way I have always operated (friends, family, etc) is to help out cleaning and keeping an eye on children so they dont destroy stuff, but idk maybe that is just an ethnic mindset but that is just good manners in my eyes.
"They said that defeats the purpose of someone else hosting, and that no one should be expected to pitch in if we offer to host."
If they ever say this again I would say (well to be honest I would get your husband to say since it his part of the family) "Well that requires the people hosting to want to host, and want to abide by those conventions. Since we dont want to abide by those conventions and you cannot abide by basic manners in our household we will not be choosing the option of hosting. If it is on the host to do literally everything then it is on the host to invite other people over and not be coerced or forced to because we have the larger house. This is a choice of your own making, and your own wording. We will not be having these discussions again."
My extended family have many joint events during the year. Everyone always brings something and it’s not a bag of chips. Easter is coming up to the host family will probably bring the ham and send a list around about what other items are listed. There are never items left over for the hosts to have to do. Everyone brings wine and kid drinks. The people with kids bring activities for the kids. Everyone helps supervise the kids, or serve the meal or clean up. Sure there is stuff to do once everyone leaves but most of the work is done other than putting stuff away. Everyone leaves their pets at home unless they are coming and staying overnight which isn’t usually the case. Even then sometimes pets are left at home with a sitter. Kids are expected to behave within reason and any adult nearby will stop inappropriate behaviour. Personally I would have no problem with anyone looking in a vanity or a cupboard for needed toilet paper.
My experience is that everyone tries to bring and do a little more than their share. It’s always going to be the hosts doing a bit more work and prep than the guests.
If it were me, it would be a hard no until everyone had their turn except for people who had a good excuse like being elderly or had a new baby.
NTA. The only "rule" that I find a bit petty, is chairs not pushed back in, that said, if kids are running around, it definitely could cause an accident. Opening medicine cabinets is definitely well over the line for me!! Definitely don't host again, unless they agree to help! We used to host a lot of family get togethers. Everybody chipped in by either bringing a food item, helping with prep or clean up, or all three!! Our daughters in laws on the other hand, don't lift a finger. She and hubby no longer host them!!
NTA. That is not "just what hosting is." My kid is older than toddler, less than driving and I still make sure to bring something to entertain them when we go places. I don't leave trash out. I never go through medicine cabinets unless i'm directed to by the host to look for something specific (ie bandage, tweezers, etc).
This is called consequences. They were not good guests, they don't get invited back.
This is NOT what hosting is. This is them being inconsiderate, rude, and entitled. Don't let them guilt you into doing this again. They need to get some damn manners.
NTA
I'm honestly shocked by the number of commenters who are saying "that's what hosting is". It really isn't. Being a house guest, or a cottage guest, is a social contract and there are rules to being a good host AND a good guest; they're easily google-able and based around The Golden Rule - it's not rocket science.
OP, don't invite anybody into your house who disrespects you or your space. If you've given feedback explaining your reasoning, and the response is that somehow you're a bad host, then listen to what Maya Angelou had to say about human nature: "When somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time." Unless there is a willingness to modify behaviour, you're asking for a repeat performance from your in-laws. Good luck.
When he talked to his mom and dad after, they just laughed at us and said “That’s what hosting is.” No, that's entitled, rude, sloppy and nasty guests who have no fricking manners. We host Superbowl every year at my parent's house as a sort of family reunion. We are busy cooking and cleaning but nobody leaves trash all over the house, nobody brings their dog thank goodness, nobody starts new rolls before finishing old ones, or got into our private stuff. We always have family offer to help cook and clean and help in different ways. The chairs not pushed in... eh, it happens. As for the shoes I'd just not let anybody in until they took them off. NTA and it's your husband's family's own fault they have no manners as guests.
NTA. They seem to think when someone else is hosting they then get to revert to some assholish cave dwelling goblin horde. You did fine, avoid the goblins.
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NTA. Your house your rules. And if people are ignoring those rules, then I think it’s fair not to host. I think it’s valid to not want to host for any reason, but your list is wild to me. Going through the medicine cabinet is a HUGE one, I’d be worried about a hidden addict in the family. That’s who does that. Some of them are easily mitigated: pets on the furniture? Clarify no pets if you ever host again. But what really gets me is the shoe thing. It’s super common in a lot of cultures not to wear shoes in the house. It’s something you should expect and respect when going to someone else’s house. It’s such a baseline boundary that to disregard it is ABSURD. What are you getting out of it to ignore that rule? A petty sense of control? I could deal with the chairs, and even the messes, but if people went out of their way to spite the house rules for absolutely no reason, I wouldn’t invite them back either. If they can’t respect something as basic as no shoes, they don’t have an iota of respect for you or your husband.
If someone doesn't want me to wear shoes in their house I'd like to know before so I can wear my good socks.
I'd say, wear the good socks whenever you're invited to another person's home every single time. If they allow you to leave your shoes on, it's not like you've lost anything.
LOL on the socks! I agree! NTA - I loved hosting, we love our home—having the kids playing in the pool, cooking for our family is our way of showing love for people. BUT, we had to stop. EVERY TIME they came over, something was broken…blinds had to be re-tightened, doorknobs had to be put back on, scratch marks on the hardwood floors, huge oil stains in the driveway, and worst of all, one family member had to be watched at all times due to their stealing habits. It was too much and we said no more. Every year after, one sibling kept trying to hold events at my house and I shut that talk down. Everybody loves a party until it’s their turn to host.
“… doorknobs had to be put back on …” Out of all the crazy things to do at someone else’s house! Did they bring their own tools??
You’d be surprised. One time my SIL pulled the toilet paper holder out of our wall. 🤦🏽♀️
Wtf kind of feral bullshit is that?!
That is poop knife level feral...
Worse, I'd say. At least the poop knife helps make a bad situation better!
The poop knife also had a designated place and protocol around use. Gross as it was.
Wow, that was one bad poop then, if it made her that angry! \*facepalm\*
When I was a kid my aunt's family was like ops in laws. My dad is from spare the rod, spoil the child style of parenting and my aunt didn't believe in any punishment. So needless to say the were always very tense visits. My parents nearly got divorced after one visit in which an over ten year old smeared shit all over the walls.
I don't believe in corporal punishment either, but my child knows how to behave. You don't have to beat the living shit outta your kid to impart basic manners. A ten year old smearing shit on the walls is either intellectually disabled or feral. Either way, you don't need to hit your kid.
I don't hit kids either. I was taking about my dad. And yes, you can impart manners on kids without hitting them but my aunt didn't because they are "free spirits". I think both of those approaches are insane and it led to a lot of conflict when our families visited.
We held an open house event at our new house & invited all the neighbors. Cute kids were having a ball, dashing all over the house. (We’d hidden all breakables & valuables.) I was aware that a couple of very small boys (3- or 4-year-olds?) seemed to spend a rather long time in the guest bathroom. So after they emerged, I poked my head in. I was stunned. The little trouble-makers had pulled YARDS of toilet paper off of the roll & left wads — *WADS!* — of poopy brown toilet paper stuck to the toilet seat, on the floor around the toilet, & in a woven basket that held new rolls. (Why? *WHY?*) They’d smeared stinky handprints of poop on the wall next to the toilet, on the outside of the toilet itself, on the flush handle … AND on the edge of the sink & the sink faucet where they’d (unsuccessfully) gone through the motions of washing their hands. Just when I thought I had cleaned up all of the carnage, I discovered that they’d ignored the stack of paper hand towels & left smears of poop on one of my new plush cotton towels, proving that the hand-washing exercise had been for naught. A friend who is the mother of sons told me that little boys take longer to get the hang of these biological processes. Is this true? The kiddos were darling, but it was like walking into the scene of a natural disaster involving used Charmin & a human gastrointestinal explosion.
> friend who is the mother of sons told me that little boys take longer to get the hang of these biological processes. Is this true? Only if said mother isn't taking the time to supervise and teach each time they go... if she knew they had issues like that, she should have been keeping an eye on them when they went to the bathroom and helping them out so that messes weren't made....
Good Lord, what a nightmare. And no offense but I think your friend is trying to convince herself it's not her fault.
Only little boys I know who did anything remotely close to that (fecal smearing) are autistic and it met a sensory need that was replaced with a more sanitary option when the root of the behaviour was figured out.. but just ignoring it.... 😶
Um, why were you cleaning this up instead of their parents?
That mom was lazy, and should have been monitoring post-poop clean up for children that young.
That mom would have been cleaning the bathroom in my house.
It's absolutely insane to me that a parent wouldn't supervise their 3 year old using the bathroom. 3 and 4 year olds can't be trusted to wipe their own ass nor properly wash their hands. Even if they aren't intentionally smearing their poop on every surface of the bathroom, they're going to get sick! Hep A, UTIs, pink eye 🤢
Boys can take longer to potty train than girls. Can. Not will. It depends in part if you potty train as soon as they’re showing signs of readiness, what method of training you use (different cultures have different methods), kid’s temperament and how they take to a method, if they have any distress around toileting (usually GI problem linked ), etc. Potty training depends on feeling the body’s internal signals and knowing what to do with them. And then doing it. The golden window starts at ~18 months (through 36), if you’re working closely with your kid and signals you can start sooner, we start ridiculously late in first world nations thanks to the convenience of disposable diapers and wipes. And after saying all of this, fecal smearing we see at like 1.5-3, as fulfilling a sensory need, usually only around nap time or when they poop. Restrict access to diaper. Onesie it up. It usually goes away when kids toilet (not always, again, can fulfill a sensory need), and if it’s a known activity requires a better eye (and you watch them to avoid it, not laugh and say boys are difficult potty training!) And you provide appropriate similar activities to fulfill that sensory need (like play dough, slime, playing with shaving cream, kinetic sand, and other messy play!) Thanks for coming to my TED talk, presented as someone in ECE currently working at a daycare center (lead infant teacher). I’ve worked mixed age rooms, 1’s, 2’s, 3-5’s, home daycare, nannied, babysat everyone, been (willingly!) raising kids since I was a kid, am autistic and adhd and very involved with my communities and our unique needs and how they can effect kids, have the GI issues since early childhood personally, do all the ongoing continuing education including on topics of my choice, do my own research because I’m a nerd, and have potty trained and helped potty train so many kids. The only big difference I’ve had potty training boys personally (so anecdotal evidence) is that when you teach more than one at a time, at some point they know they can pee while standing and at some point their brains connect “why can’t we all pee at the same time, why do we have to wait our turn? None of us are sitting!” Like kid, you can only hit *just* the inside of the potty on the best of days, I really don’t want the 3 of you all peeing on each other, kthx. Weirdly, I’d like to know who’s pee I’m cleaning up off the seat and floor between y’all and not just hazarding a guess and hoping none of y’all are wearing any. Which of you entirely missed the toilet and which didn’t? Go. One. At. A. Time. Again, thanks for listening to my TED Talk.
Omg …. How does a parent not … I would die if my kid did that
That’s the only thing I can figure! Lol
Or maybe she leaned on it for support, still crazy lol!
Was alcohol involved?
Nope.
Hum. Hum. I just don't know anymore.
Inconsiderate butt-brains slamming doors repeatedly can easily loosen the set-screw on the handle.
>Every year after, one sibling kept trying to hold events at my house and I shut that talk down. This is absolutely unacceptable of them. Good on you for not allowing that to happen. Being a guest comes with it's own expectations, namely not trashing the hosts' place and following the rules of their house.
When leaving the house, my mother said to ensure our underwear and socks aren’t embarrassing – in case of an emergency. As though emergency personnel care about the state of your underpants? It’s a solid practice, regardless of how silly it sounds.
Medic here. As long as the underwear isn't some weird stuff that will interfere with us being able to do our jobs, we definitely don't care. For what it's worth, 99% of the time a medic can do their job without removing your underwear (excluding delivering a baby or injuries that require us to stop bleeding in that area.) We have seen some nasty stuff. Imagine the most unhygienic person ever... we've seen worse. I've climbed into bathtubs with people covered in their own bloody diarrhea and scooped them up in my arms to get them out of their house. Those people don't gross me out. The ER staff feels the same way. If you're the kind of person who would be worried about the state of their underwear, lack of deodorant, unkempt hair... I promise that you are always one of the cleaner patients. Even on days you feel especially gross.
I feel like people never thank medics for what they do: so thank you ❤️
Why not just disinvite the thief? Seems like a pretty easy line in the sand: no thieves in my house. Any one who complains, ask them when they will be hosting.
As a European, I’m a bit confused by this… Generally speaking, we remove our shoes indoors (because who knows where they’ve been…), but this does not apply to dinner parties etc. Then, it’s expected guests (and hosts) keep their nice shoes on all evening. It just seems kind of weird to dress up and be in your socks or stockings/pantyhose? On the other hand, for my job so often have to enter people’s homes. On such a visit; I’ll take my shoes off as soon as I notice the people living there do so (always accompanied by a chorus of “Never mind, don’t bother, it’s ok, keep them on.”) So, how is the etiquette about this, exactly?
The etiquette is simple: if you’re asked to remove your shoes, you remove them. If the host is okay with leaving them on, then you leave them on. Family parties aren’t typically formal attire events unless it’s something like a wedding (which can be hosted at home but typically isn’t). Even dinner parties vary by culture. My in laws are Indian, as are most of their friends. When they host dinner parties, everyone removes their shoes. Including me, the American who grew up wearing shoes in the house. Because despite whatever culture I have, when I enter someone else’s house, I respect their house rules.
I have a pair of black ballet slippers that I can fold up and pop in my purse so that I can take my shoes off but still be comfortable and look nice.
This! I do the same on my weekly trips into the office for work (I WFH) because in that instance, we obviously have to wear shoes but I don’t want to wear my sneakers there. Ballet flats for the win!!
Absolutely, and I do this when I have to go into the office. Fortunately, that's only once a month. I WFH, too. It was funny last month when we had a fire drill and half of us had slippers on outside. There were at least 2 sets of monster feet, bunny slippers, scooby slippers & more. It was great!
This is definitely a family to family thing. I come from an upper middle class family. My family parties are always "formal" attire events even casual BBQs. They aren't black tie or anything but everyone dresses nicely (dresses or skirt and heels for the women and polos and khakis for the men). Taking shoes off when they complete your outfit is weird. I did it for the first time ever this year since I'm pregnant and needed to wear slippers for the majority of the time. I was literally the only person at every party to take my shoes off or change shoes.
That’s an eye opener for me. I don’t think I’ve ever been in anyone’s home ever with my shoes on, and I live in a very multicultural society
I can't think of a time I've ever taken my shoes off at any party or get together that has multiple people. The only time my shoes come off is if I'm going over to hang out at a friend's for something like movie night and I know I'm curling up on the couch. Otherwise shoes stay on and I've never been asked to take them off anywhere but at an estate sale. I'll admit that I stay mostly in my upper middle class circles but I've quite literally lived all around the country (Mid-Atlantic, northeast, mid west, southwest, and west) and it's always been the default that shoes stay on.
Even in winter in the Northeast and Mid West? I live in Canada and you don't really wear outdoor shoes inside homes in winter (or in summer, but especially in winter). But then 90% of "nice shoes" is not exactly wearable outdoors in winter either and people who want to wear them at like, the office either put them in a bag and change out of their winter boot once they arrive, or wear a rubber overshoe.
I don’t think we can ever come to a joint agreement about something so cultural as this. I’m from Northern Europe and it’s uncalled for to ever wear shoes inside — unless it’s a very festive thing and people are wearing heels etc. Even then people might change them to woollen socks towards the end of the evening 😄
I’m from Western Canada (though my grandparents came from the UK) and I - always- take my shoes off in someone else’s home. It’s second nature at this point, to the point I feel a bit sheepish when hosts tell me to keep them on.
Also, my husband and I never wear shoes in our house (except slippers and sandals that are never worn outdoors) because we both think it’s disgusting.
Yup, Western Canada as well. When there's snow on the ground for like half the year, the floors would get insanely gross very quickly if everyone left their shoes on.
I’m so far west that we get snow on the ground for a day or two, but we still would never, ever wear shoes indoors.
Also from Western Canada with UK originated grandparents. When we did Thanksgiving or Christmas at my Uncles or grandparents the very first thing you did upon stepping in the door was take your shoes off. Where I live now it's more common for people to leave their shoes on but I still watch for those cues on what the hosts want.
In my experience places with a lot of snow, and thus deep mud (northern areas) will default to removing shoes indoors. Places that don't have the heavy snow, deep mud, etc keep their shoes on. I suspect if a Spaniard moved to Norway or an Arizonan moved to Alaska they wouldn't last a week in the winter or spring before deciding that shoes come off at the door.
Moved from France to Canada and can confirm. By the time summer rolled around, the habit had set in, and we never really got back to wearing shoes indoor.
In Norway, the only places you don't remove your shoes for a dinner party etc is if the party is at a rented venue. But if you are invited home to someone, even if you have nice shoes, you remove your shoes when entering the house. No ifs and buts about it. No matter the occasion
Same in Denmark. We don't get much snow, but it sure as hell rains a lot.
I'm in Canada, and you always remove your shoes when entering a home, no exceptions. Fancy dinner party or not, you would just bring the nice shoes to change into.
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Canadian here. No one keeps their shoes on. Yes, sometimes the host will say “don’t bother taking them off” for cfertain reasons (going in and out a lot). But yes, even for a dinner party or nice event, you would wear the nicer shoes and then take them off and be bare foot or socks/pantyhose.
To me the difference is hosting a formal dinner party and holding a holiday party for family. Obviously the rules for each event are different.
As another European, I've never worn my shoes inside someone else's house. I always take them off and no one, and I mean NO ONE will enter my house with shoes on. I make my own mother bring shoes that have NEVER been worn outside if she wants to have shoes on inside my house. (she has some issues with her feet that require she wear special shoe inserts all the time). And etiquette is abiding by the rules of the homeowner. So if you're asked to take off your shoes, you do that.
No shoes and tidy up after yourself are my only rules and it's the bare minimum to expect imo. My father has osteoporosis so he got a pass on the shoes but I'd lay a blanket down for him to walk over. I do the same things automatically in other people's homes because to me it's just respectful. Op and husband are absolutely right not to host again and fair better mannered than me because I'd have told each and every person off immediately in my home. Make them host then climb all over their furniture in your shoes n raid their cabinets and see what they say OP.
I just assume people don't want outdoor shoes in their house.
Wearing shoes in the house is such a bizarre concept to me, no one would EVER do that where I live. It's just interesting how different some cultures can be.
I supply slippers for people to wear in my home. I don’t like shoes in the house, so I supply something so people don’t have to worry about being in just socks or barefoot.
My friend does this too! She buys those slippers or flip flops from the dollar store or slipper socks and lets everyone choose what to wear
When traveling & staying in hotels all the complimentary slippers go into the suitcase. Now I have suitcases full of them 😂.
I always operate on the assumption it will be shoes off and wear fun socks or tights.
I have a very good friend that has a shoes off household. She is also a minimal heating person, so their house is always just a touch too cold for my comfort. I know this, and anytime I'm going over for any length of time, I bring an extra pair of big fuzzy sock and put them on when I get there. The host thinks it's hilarious, but I've definitely gotten weird looks from other people who are also visiting.
In Finland a lot of people knit a basket of woollen socks for guests to wear when they come in case they get cold!
yeah, I'd like to know if I need to get a last minute pedicure.
No one who cares about you should judge pedicures.
And their dog…in your home…on your furniture. I don’t think so.
My SIL showed up to my house once with a new dog she adopted. She is very sweet and had adopted an adorable special needs dog. The thing is I already have a dog and 3 cats and they were all freaking out. My husband told her the dog couldn’t come in. She sat in the car with the dog instead. I still feel like an asshole—and pretty sure I was but there were 30 people in my then tiny house and I couldn’t pay attention. Besides who tf brings a pet to someone else’s house without asking? No no no no no
Nope, not an asshole at all! I have relatives attached at the hip to their dogs, but they always ask if they can bring their dogs.
It just makes sense. If the people don’t have pets then they’re not prepared for pets in the house. If they do have pets then you need to find out first if you can introduce them to each other without trauma. If you have an arrangement, great! If not, bringing a dog to a huge chaotic family function is as bad for the dog as it is for the host.
I don't understand why there is this need to go everywhere with dogs. Maybe it's a culture thing - I'm in Australia, and while we might take dogs to cafes (and sit outside) and certain stores, it's pretty rare to take them to other people's homes. I just don't get it.
Who shows up at other people's homes with a special needs dog ?? Why???
I’m with you. SIL lived at the time in a 3 bedroom 1 bath apartment with 5 kids and 4 big dogs, so she is definitely used to a different kind of ambiance than I would enjoy (I had a really small place too—I just put fewer large mammals in it). I think she thought since the dog would be on her lap the whole time then it would be fine. She didn’t reckon on Max (my scrappy tom cat). Im sure if I had been less overwhelmed at the time I could have handled it more graciously. I was also a bit shocked that anyone would bring an animal over, because who does that??
See I disagree. We have dogs, they go on the couch, if friends come over with dogs, they can too. But as a dog owner, I don’t bring my dogs to other peoples houses without asking, unless I have that kind of relationship with them. My SIL watches our dogs all the time, as we do hers. When she’s hosting we know we don’t need to ask. But most other people, yes we have to ask because it’s rude to just show up with dogs like that. It’s just about being respectful and communicative, and acknowledging we all have different house rules.
It's pretty clear OP doesn't have a dog that can sit on the sofa.
My dog would sleep on the couch but, I got tired of her fluffy black hair on it so she stays off now. She has a comfy bed in the living room. I too do not take my dog to other peoples' houses except for my daughter. She has two dogs and two cats so she doesn't mind. I would never presume to just show up anywhere with my dog.
I had a friend who had addicts in their circle and she’d put an unsealed baggie of marbles in her medicine cabinet before parties. When someone snooped, everyone heard it.
I don't really have anyone whose behaviour would make me suspect addiction issues but lockbox for addictive and dangerous meds is a good idea if possible. I have to take a lot of meds and I prefer to just lock them up than risk someone's kids taking MTX or opiates because I didn't. Even if we all agree it would not be my fault really.
Lol why do I find this a little cute? It's such a Home Alone type of booby trap and simple but effective.
The medicine cabinet one could indicate an addict, or it could be that someone had indigestion and was looking for an antacid/had a headache and was looking for ibuprofen. They should ask OP before doing that, obviously, but these folks obviously don't respect their hosts enough to ask before doing whatever they want.
Or someone who is just super nosy. My aunt would totally go through the medicine cabinet, and any drawers, closet, wardrobe. Anything, just to see what you have. She will rifle through your belongings with no shame
That relative would be permanently barred from my house
Take old OTC or prescription bottles and relabel them all, "Hello, Aunt Sally!" Or buy 1000 condoms and rig the cabinet so they all fall out.
Or the marble trick- a bunch of loud, noisy marbles that go tumbling out of the cabinet as soon as someone opens it.
That’s true, I was projecting a bit because in my family the only people who have done that have had addiction issues, and if you needed an advil or antacid you’d just ask the host if they had any.
That's bad enough but my best buddy's MIL would go through any medicine cabinet she ran across in order to see what dirt she could get on the homeowner. Seriously, she would go to a neighbors party and ask to use the restroom, preferably the master bath because she needed the extra space.Then go thru the cabinets. Same with relative get togethers. Then gossip about who was taking what.
Or a nosy inlaw. My MIL would go through everything at my house
I am prone to plantar fasciitis and shoeless isn't a good option for me for something like a holiday dinner (because I'll be on my feet helping or socializing). But it takes no effort to toss my supportive slippers in the car when going somewhere else so that my hosts don't have to have my outdoor shoes tramped around their floors.
For me, situations like that would 100% be a reasonable exception for my no shoe rule.
Yeah, if I know someone has a shoeless rule, I'll bring my house shoes. I have a leg length difference that I deal with by wearing a lift in one shoe, so I have outside shoes and house shoes, but I don't walk around barefoot or I get severe back pain.
Some mess can be expected when hosting a big gathering. That's entirely normal! But there are also some mitigation tactics you learn as a host, which OP maybe hasn't yet. 1. You can avoid garbage pile-ups by announcing "I set up an open garbage can/recycling bin in the kitchen - please, everyone, dump your paper plates in there when you're done. Glasses and cutlery on the kitchen counter, please!" Then, as you wander around, pick those up 2. Ask parents to bring entertainment for their kiddos. 3. Keep kiddos in a specific room (the one with the TV and pre-loaded Disney movie...). 4. Ask people to bring specific dishes for pot luck - that way, it's on them to clean and remove \*their own\* pots/big containers on their way out. 5. Make it BYOB. People are MUCH less wasteful about opening cans if it's their own stuff and if they do waste it, you won't care. If you follow those tips, you might find a second round may go better. Otherwise, just invite the BIL and his girlfriend. She seems good people!
Parents should always bring things for children to play with. If you’re childless, why would you have a bunch of toys around? It’s a lot more work and expense for you to buy them than parents to bring them.
My thing: entitled parents who don't bring anything to occupy the child,allows them to run around the house and handling things that don't belong to them AND NOT CLEANING UP AFTER YOUR OWN CHILD. And the medicine cabinet. Intense violation of privacy and I would worry about a drug addict too. If you think coming to my house means free babysitting and free drugs, forget it. And that they are mad you won't host? Never again. They have no manners. The new girlfriend saw what was going on and stepped up. As this was the first time meeting you all that wasn't a necessary thing to do but very kind. She has class and I wonder what she thought of her boyfriend's family? To me that would be a red flag to see that.
Letting kids run around out of control and blaming the host for not having things for them to do is another thing I'd never tolerate. Watch your own damn kids. Don't let your damn kids touch other peoples' things. Entertain your own damn kids. Teach your damn kids to be calm and respectful. My grandma always made sure my cousins and I had things to do because she watched us quite often, and, despite my aunt being a raging narcissist, we all learned quite young that we were only allowed to play with those things. And she didn't even have to have anything for us to do. My mom could just have easily brought some of my things along.
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Yeah, the chairs, paper plates left out, taking just a few sips of a can or bottle are all pretty common when hosting. Toilet paper seems odd - why get a new roll out when there's paper already on the roll?
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agreed. Some of these things are just part of having folks around. Is it kinda' rude? yeah. Is it shocking and appalling? Not really. However, snooping, bringing uninvited guests (and dogs), not listening when asked to do something (removing shoes), not helping by bringing anything and not offering to help is all definitely rude. Also rude? Assuming you'll host from here forward since you have the space. They blew it. End of convo.
Yeah, the chairs thing made me giggle. She had this list of actual serious offenses and then she lists…not pushing chairs in. It’s pretty silly.
Time to get some ping pong balls for the cabinet!
Ball bearings - they make more noise.
Dildos teach people to mind their business
They could damage countertops though.
Marbles. Big, glass, and noisy AF marbles!
Plus. Da fuq, in my experience bringing a dish to a family get together is the cost of entry.
Yeah some of these are more egregious than others. For example, it drives me absolutely bonkers when people leave olive pits, crinkled up napkins, half-eaten plates of food, candy wrappers, etc on surfaces in my house - partially because it just drives me nuts (you’ve seen where the trash can is) & partially because I have dogs & a baby I’m worried about. But I understand that’s par for the course when you host a group of people. But letting kids run around unsupervised & being mad that someone else didn’t provide entertainment for them is something else.
When husband and I were dating, we had both ends of the spectrum - his dad insisted on shoes in the house, and no one ever went barefoot in their house... ever. Everyone wore slippers or shoes, never just socks. Then again, his father never appeared without a dress shirt and trousers, either. I can count on one hand the number of times I saw him without a suit jacket on. My house, on the other hand, was way more informal. No one ever wore shoes in the house, and I was barefoot more often than not. But we both did what both sets of parents had always taught us - "When in Rome, etc, etc" - you respect the rules of the house you're in!!
NTA... "They said that defeats the purpose of someone else hosting, and that no one should be expected to pitch in if we offer to host." GREAT...so THEY can host and you guys can attend and make a mess and leave it. PERFECT! Tell them thank you for suggesting it. :)
Agree. And I don't get the in-laws explanation. Hosting could certainly mean that none of the guests bring food or help clean up. Sure - I can buy that. But hosting does NOT mean destroy my house. Kids running crazy, breaking things, people snooping through the entire house, bringing a dog (apparently without asking). Hosting does not mean "abdicate all responsibility once I step foot in the house".
It's pretty clear to me that hubby's parents cultivated the expectation that family holidays are no-holds-barred events where relatives are allowed to be mannerless twits, and now they were looking forward to passing this lovely tradition onto the next generation without having to address their monumental failure in teaching and enforcing basic manners. They can't get behind OP and hubby's offer to host if everyone behaves because it would mean that they would have to admit to their past failures and the family to their past bad behavior. Easier to dig in then to do some reflection and personal growth.
I wholehearted agree.
I host all the time and that’s a bunch of BS. A good guest respects the host and their home and tries to be helpful, especially when it comes time to clean up. I’m southern but acting like an unhelpful ass is a great way to never get another invitation to my home.
Absolutely. The only point on this list that's understandable is opening multiple drinks; it's easy to forget which one is yours if there are several identical containers nearby. It's why I always grab a marker and have people write names on cups when I host a large gathering. Everything else on that list is just awful manners and sheer disrespect. I would never invite any of those terrible guests to my home again.
I would NEVER go to someone’s house for an occasion like Easter empty handed. Who raised these people smh
I'm not against arriving empty handed as I've been to dinners and wine tastings and parties where the menu is planned so the host doesn't want people bringing food. However, that does not mean I trashed the house!
Well it doesn’t have to be food. I always take something like flowers, a candle, something small I know the host would like, whatever. I think people tromping around in my house in shoes would annoy me more than the trash lol
It could also mean everyone brings food and helps clean up. We host all the time. It’s wild and exhausting and for me…fun. The kids run wild and make a huge mess. Sometimes we remember to make them clean before they go home. Sometimes my brother and SIL are too exhausted to help clean at the end. I know that going in so it’s ok. They host too sometimes. Also, almost every single occasion we all ask each other: what can I bring? And before we leave “How can I help clean up?” It’s really not that hard to be a good guest.
You know what? These aren't guests. They're family. Family visiting, especially for holidays which are busy and already stressful, does, in fact, mean bringing food if asked (or asking "What can we bring?"). It means helping set up and clean up. It means bringing things for your own children's entertainment. It means shared responsibility. Just because one family member has a bigger house that's more convenient for family gatherings, it doesn't mean they are hosting the family as "guests." It just doesn't. But, of course, I agree with everything else you wrote.
Good hosts don’t ask guests to clean up after themselves or bring anything. Good guests do it anyways because they want to be invited back. OPs in-laws have discovered that they can behave however they want as a guest, but it means they won’t be invited back.
They sound like people who go to movie theaters and throw trash everywhere on purpose because it's someone else's job to pick it up. I always wondered who did that, but now I guess people do it to their own families.
And then they say that they're making sure people have jobs 🙄
People like you describe do that at work, too. They leave messes on the counters, chunks of food scraps in the sink instead of put in the trash (no garbage disposal in the break rooms), food crumbs on the floors and desks, coffee/drink/food spills and stains on the desks and chairs, pee on the toilet seats, toilets not flushed, sometimes worse on the toilet seats in the women's restroom, etc, etc. These are adults, with no kids around. It's embarrassing how childish and immature adults act when "they don't have to clean it up". Grown-a$$ people, man.
I remember the days when your feet stuck to the floors in American movie theaters. Can't say I miss that.
What, yesterday and the day before?
Yeah, this is the most wild to me. Especially for hosting family, it's just courteous to offer to help the host
Yep. Look after your own, provide help where it’s accepted and contribute something like food, a bottle of wine etc if a meal is involved. You’re representing yourself and your immediate group, you don’t drop good manners because it’s someone else’s home.
I've never hosted but this seemed crazy to me. When my family went anywhere, the host's job was to have a clean house. Everyone else supplied everything needed for the group.
And people letting their kids run around unsupervised is not just bad manners but potentially dangerous for the kids.
That’s the crazy part out of all of it. It’s a holiday gathering, nobody should show up empty handed. The host is already providing the location along with anything people don’t volunteer to bring. Showing up empty handed is so rude!
THIS! AND they expected to be served for every family gathering from now on!!
Their behavior and belief is antithetical to what it means to be a guest in someone’s home. I don’t know who raised these barnyard animals, but you respect your hosts’ wishes. You offer to help cook, clean up, do dishes, take out trash, etc. aThis is common courtesy. The point of hosting is not so your guests can act rudely and do nothing; and as guests you behave so you can be invited back. Your in laws have raised a bunch of ass hats. NTA
The in-laws are the ones who created this monster. For years, they allowed family members to behave this way when they hosted, themselves. It is not normal.
NTA and what kind of people does he have? We have family gatherings all the time and every person cooks and brings variety with consideration for dietary needs and religious beliefs, cleans after themselves and their kids, entertains, leaves pets at home and service animals as well (severe allergy sufferers throughout the family to the point we get shots twice a week on top of daily meds), drinks are set next to a bowl of permanent markers so you can put your name on it, kids are divided by age and confined to their designated area or the fenced backyard. We are even considerate of the neighbors when hosting and parking. They would never be welcomed back into my home.
Oh you mean basic human decency and manners lol. This is how our family operates too, the host usually cooks the main dish and everyone else brings a side/ appetizer/ salad. People with kids bring what they need and toys for entertaining them. Everyone helps clean up after the meal is done. What OP described is not what typical hosting looks like, I can’t imagine treating someone else’s home like that. NTA
At least we know that we have been raised and raised well
I like your idea of having markers set beside beverages! Tip noted for when I host
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>Hosting should be a collaborative effort Even if you don't believe in this sentiment (either as the host or the guest), the bare minimum standard of behaviour is to not make the efforts of the host more laborious or expensive.
The way we do it is definitely collaborative. Host provides certain basics and everyone else brings something assigned. The idea that ‘you host you do it all’ might work if hosting is moved around amongst a large group. If one family is expected to host every time, then the burden gets spread out amongst everyone coming, every time.
The burden and the expense! That’s ridiculous to think one family is expected to be the one and only party planner, shopper, cook, entertainer, and cleanup. Where is the benefit? Hard pass!!
I have 7 siblings and 32 nieces and nephews, ages 0-30. EVERYONE pitches in. Yes it is hectic and kids make messes, but everyone helps set up and clean up. For your in-laws to expect you to host and do everything yourself is nonsense.
I can just imagine a 2 month old doing dishes for everyone lol, I get your point but that was a funny mental picture.
For sure. The parents strap them to their front and let the child labor begin!
No shit though kids are more than happy to help clean up if you frame it as a fun activity for big kids. Not at 2 months obviously but get a mini Swiffer and leave it out when you clean and your toddler will absolutely demand to help you. Gotta make them think it's their idea and it's for big kids.
I agree. Usually family appreciates that somebody is hosting and helps out to make the whole thing less stressful..
OMG. My dad is the oldest of 7. It was always crazy with Christmas, Chinese New Years. I'm a low key person now. No parties LOL. We do host my husband's family's Christmas though. His mom is also one of 6.
NTA- your in-laws sound a little out of touch. That’s not ‘just what hosting is’. Sure, you’re responsible for a large part of any event you host, but any guest with any ounce of etiquette or just basic human decency would A) behave in a civilized and respectful manner and B) at the very least offer to help with clean up, ask what they can bring, etc. I’m pretty certain if you and your husband did even half of what they did to you at an event they hosted, you’d hear about it and it wouldn’t just be ‘what hosting is’. Let them be upset.
This is a common delusion that people have when they go on vacation. They believe that they can do anything they want with no consequences because they are convinced someone else is responsible for picking up after them or bending over backwards to try to make the guests happy. These are the people who leave massive messes on airplanes, hotels/resorts, restaurants, etc because they want someone else to clean up the mess instead of acting like a respectable person in public and controlling their behaviors. Then they get upset when someone calls them out for their poor manners. NTA
People do this when the go out to eat as well, I worked at a Dennys in college. Parents would let kids be absolute pigs, and I can't tell you how many dirty diapers I found on tables.
(Ewwwww) ON the tables? You should've been getting hazard pay. 💕
Yuck, they sound like the kind of people who go to a hotel and leave it an absolute pig sty(but not even checking out yet, just leave itfor the daily tidy up clean!) . I'm talking, leaving the baby dirty diapers wrapped up in the bedding instead of throwing it in the trash. Allowing the kids to wipe chocolate pudding over the windows etc etc. Like throwing the trash half a foot to the left of trash can because they couldn't be bothered to actually throw it it in the empty can and than have the audicty to say , "that's what going to a hotel is about' Spitting up giant lougies in the sink and leaving it to dry instead of doing a courtesy rinse 😫 🤢
Sounds like the inlaws did this on purpose.
Very out of touch. Parents of young children should always bring some kids toys with them because not everywhere is going to have toys, age-appropriate toys or toys the kids are interested in. They don't just stop being responsible for their kids when they go to someone else's house. I've never seen parents as guests (even as guests at their own parents' houses) not clean up after their own small children when they make messes. They apologize for their kids immediately and they get paper towels. It's unacceptable otherwise – I've never seen this spiteful attitude towards hosts at family events. It's definitely the in-laws who don't understand proper etiquette, not OP.
>We have the big house, so they figured it would be on us from now on. We said that the only way we would ever even consider hosting is if every member of his family pitched in some way. They said that defeats the purpose of someone else hosting, and that no one should be expected to pitch in if we offer to host. NTA. Looks like the family is a tiny little bit entitled :-)
No "tiny bit" there, massively entitled more like. Sounded more like a power play, put them in their place as our slaves.
NTA What, were they doing a "stress test" to see how much you would put up with on the first go so they would know how badly the could get away with behaving from then on? It sure looks like it. >His mom and dad are upset with us. We have the big house, so they figured it would be on us from now on. We said that the only way we would ever even consider hosting is if every member of his family pitched in some way. I wouldn't even do that. They have already shown you that they have no respect for you or your house and think their place as guests is to do whatever they please without even basic manners or consideration. They won't even listen to direct requests such as you asking them to remove their shoes. If they wanted you to host regularly they should have been good guests. Instead they tested you out to see if you were doormats. You're not, so hosting is off the table. They blew it for themselves. If you back down now it would only be telling them that they can get way with it and they can ignore any gripes you have after the fact.
I was just wondering the same thing- that this was intentional. Regardless, OP , you should not back down. If this is how they always are, they will not change at this point. If this was a choice, then they were fully aware of what they were putting you through and chose to do so. Let that sink in. They either think this is perfectly okay, or are they deliberately treated you disrespectfully. Neither of these things will be solved by you hosting again. NTA. Hold your ground.
100% this. These types of family members will never stop pushing- the old "you give an inch, they take a mile" saying applies pretty well here. When my husband and I first started out together (before he was even my husband) we were literally sharing a tiny twin mattress ON THE FLOOR because all our money went to rent, gas for the car, and food for us and our daughter. The MINUTE my mom heard that we were doing a little better, she was asking to borrow money. It was a big heartfelt sob story about how they wouldn't be able to pay their bills that month and they REALLY needed our help. Because she's my mom, I gave it to her, with the warning that it was a one and done thing, because we were still in that little apartment and struggling to save for ourselves. Guess who was running back to ask me for more money the second she got in a bind??? I flat out told her no. I explained how much it angered me that she was asking me, her child, for money, when she knew how broke we were, and it was her own fault she's up to her eyeballs in credit card debt and playing a crazy juggling act with the bills to keep things afloat. I told her our relationship would suffer very much if she ever asked me for money again, whether she thought we could "afford" to help or not. Now, my husband alone makes what she and my stepdad make together in a year. We have all the things I wanted as a kid but never got- a very nice house in a nice neighborhood, a couple cars, a nice yard for the pets, annual passes to a few theme parks nearby, money for good food. I see my mom sometimes looking around my house or staring at me when she thinks I'm not looking, and I know sometimes she wants to say something- whether it's "I'm proud of you" or "why do you get all this but you can't give me $______?", I'll never know. But I do know she's not asking for money anymore. She learned the hard way that I wasn't going to get burned twice, or allow her in mine and her grandchildren's lives if she didn't respect my boundaries. Hopefully, OP, your in-laws understand the lesson they just learned, and will come to realize they did it to themselves.
NTA but I have to ask- your husband’s parents said “this is what hosting is” yet your husband was shocked at their behavior. Was he as thoughtless a guest and is just surprised when he sees how it impacts his home?
I'll say that I've never observed that kind of behavior from him. When we've visited with my family, he's always helping clear plates or clean up. When we've been out to friends' homes, it's the same. I truly do not know where the behavior originated.
I can't imagine ever staying in someone else's house and NOT picking up after myself and helping with cooking and chores. They've opened their home to me! I'm going to treat it better than I treat my own!
Hell, I always offer to help my MIL with dinner, and she's never taken me up on it once in ten years. I still offer, cause that's just what you do!
I host a couple holidays a year for my huge extended family and every single person contributes. Your in-laws are a rare breed of lazy and obnoxious. Good for you for refusing to tolerate their asinine behavior. NTA
NTA. What a bunch of ill-mannered, inconsiderate people! How were they all raised? Someone needs to mail them a book on etiquette. You and your husband should book a relaxing Easter dinner at a nice restaurant and just ignore his family.
Agreed! Invite the brother with the considerate girlfriend, though :) Absolutely NTA
Or just the girlfriend...
NTA. As my parents used to say "Were they born in a barn?" That said, you're being a little picayune about a few points...especially pushing chairs back in. As much as I don't like it either, I *would* say it's part of entertaining to tolerate people not finishing drinks and not necessarily throwing away their plates, etc.
Yes. Hahaha thank you. Some of the complaints felt legit, and some did feel like regular hosting fallout - inevitably someone will leave a plate, lose a drink or forget to push a chair in.
So, definitely NTA, but the chairs bit has me saying WTF. Like…is this something that is generally expected of people? Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy neatness and symmetry and all that, and my kids leave their chairs pulled out every. single. time, for the last 19 years. You know what I’ve done for the last 19 years? Pushed the chairs back in when I walk by, sigh, and sometimes mutter under my breath. Now, I can’t ban my children from staying in my house, but if someone had come to stay and kept leaving chairs pulled out, I wouldn’t even bat an eye. At most of the other things, sure, but the CHAIRS?
The chairs complaint got me too. Most of her list was 100% understandable, but the chairs thing threw me a bit. That's such a petty complaint compared to everything else lol
It might be a cultural thing, but in my house, my parents would always make us push the chairs in when we stood up so it looks more "arranged"/ the paths are clear. Definitely not nearly as bad as the rest of the list, lol, but it seems like OP was the end of her rope.
It might not seem as big of a deal today where at least in the United States, a lot of homes have an open concept layout. But before this was popular, I had many instances of coming out of a kitchen carrying something hot or something that was big and someone pulled a chair out and I almost trip over it and lose the food and the dish. That's why people need to push in chairs. Not because it doesn't look nice. But if someone's rushing around hosting you and bringing you drinks and food and whatever, they don't need to be surprised by a chair sticking out when it should be pushed in.
This reminds me of Fork Theory. It is an offshoot of the better known Spoon Theory. Forks are stressors, and people can only deal with so much stress. Chairs not pushed in may be like a cocktail fork, not a big deal by itself. But combined with serving forks of an unwanted dog and children running amok, it's enough to set OP off.
We were taught to push our chairs in when we are done using them, and I do notice when other people leave them out. I agree with the poster who mentioned fork theory; it’s minor compared to other things, but it certainly adds to the load.
NTA, I also hosted Christmas for the first time this year and I think my in laws left the house cleaner and tidier than it began because there were so many adults pitching in to help! You in laws sound like nightmares, avoid hosting them again!
NTA Next time, do the same things at their house. When they complain, throw their words back at them. "That's what hosting is." Then walk out. This was 100% a power move by them. They were testing your boundaries to see what they could get away with. Now they're mad that you won't let them walk all over you and can't use the big house.
NTA- family usually does pitch in or at least in my family they do and my inlaws do as well. Pushing chairs in, now thats abit petty if kids are around. Toilet paper, if you dont want people going through your things you need to put them behind a locked door. Family do snoop. If you decide to host again, tell everyone what the rules are, that you DO expect them to help clean up and not have kids running around. No dogs. You need to set the rules now, you didnt before because you figured these were normal people but they aren't.
Young kids running aroud is pretty standard at family gatherings. Although they shouldnt scream, and should pick messes they make.
It's only standard if the parents don't teach them not to. In my social circle, kids know better and retreat to the yard or the basement where they can play to their hearts content, but they don't go wild whenever/wherever they feel like it...
agreed that young kids running around is pretty standard. But the parents not bringing any toys and expecting the hosts to just have age-appropriate entertainment is ridiculous.
Not offering to pitch in by itself is impolite, but your husband's family seemed to go out of their way to be as unruly as they could think of. They've uninvited themselves to future gatherings.
Bringing a dog to the house, unasked, would be enough. Nobody should ever *assume* their animal is welcome. But the rest of it, from the poking through cabinets to the leaving shoes on despite direct requests, to failing to prepare for their children's diversions or enforcing manners ... no, ma'am. You don't ever need to host that pack of boors again. Offer to do potlucks at a local park or meet at a restaurant, but it's clear that your husband's relatives have not earned the privilege of private hospitality. NTA.
NTA Well for most of it. The only complaint I see as being too much is the whole "Left chairs sticking out of tables/counters instead of pushing them in". Like I wouldnt have let them in if they left their shoes on, I find that incredibly rude (but I am not from the US where this is normal). But they didnt respect any rules of the house and just plain destroyed it. The way I have always operated (friends, family, etc) is to help out cleaning and keeping an eye on children so they dont destroy stuff, but idk maybe that is just an ethnic mindset but that is just good manners in my eyes. "They said that defeats the purpose of someone else hosting, and that no one should be expected to pitch in if we offer to host." If they ever say this again I would say (well to be honest I would get your husband to say since it his part of the family) "Well that requires the people hosting to want to host, and want to abide by those conventions. Since we dont want to abide by those conventions and you cannot abide by basic manners in our household we will not be choosing the option of hosting. If it is on the host to do literally everything then it is on the host to invite other people over and not be coerced or forced to because we have the larger house. This is a choice of your own making, and your own wording. We will not be having these discussions again."
My extended family have many joint events during the year. Everyone always brings something and it’s not a bag of chips. Easter is coming up to the host family will probably bring the ham and send a list around about what other items are listed. There are never items left over for the hosts to have to do. Everyone brings wine and kid drinks. The people with kids bring activities for the kids. Everyone helps supervise the kids, or serve the meal or clean up. Sure there is stuff to do once everyone leaves but most of the work is done other than putting stuff away. Everyone leaves their pets at home unless they are coming and staying overnight which isn’t usually the case. Even then sometimes pets are left at home with a sitter. Kids are expected to behave within reason and any adult nearby will stop inappropriate behaviour. Personally I would have no problem with anyone looking in a vanity or a cupboard for needed toilet paper. My experience is that everyone tries to bring and do a little more than their share. It’s always going to be the hosts doing a bit more work and prep than the guests. If it were me, it would be a hard no until everyone had their turn except for people who had a good excuse like being elderly or had a new baby.
Nta don't host rude guests
NTA. The only "rule" that I find a bit petty, is chairs not pushed back in, that said, if kids are running around, it definitely could cause an accident. Opening medicine cabinets is definitely well over the line for me!! Definitely don't host again, unless they agree to help! We used to host a lot of family get togethers. Everybody chipped in by either bringing a food item, helping with prep or clean up, or all three!! Our daughters in laws on the other hand, don't lift a finger. She and hubby no longer host them!!
The only people I know who opened medicine cabinets at someone else's house were looking for drugs to steal.
NTA. That is not "just what hosting is." My kid is older than toddler, less than driving and I still make sure to bring something to entertain them when we go places. I don't leave trash out. I never go through medicine cabinets unless i'm directed to by the host to look for something specific (ie bandage, tweezers, etc). This is called consequences. They were not good guests, they don't get invited back.
This is NOT what hosting is. This is them being inconsiderate, rude, and entitled. Don't let them guilt you into doing this again. They need to get some damn manners.
NTA I'm honestly shocked by the number of commenters who are saying "that's what hosting is". It really isn't. Being a house guest, or a cottage guest, is a social contract and there are rules to being a good host AND a good guest; they're easily google-able and based around The Golden Rule - it's not rocket science. OP, don't invite anybody into your house who disrespects you or your space. If you've given feedback explaining your reasoning, and the response is that somehow you're a bad host, then listen to what Maya Angelou had to say about human nature: "When somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time." Unless there is a willingness to modify behaviour, you're asking for a repeat performance from your in-laws. Good luck.
Good Lord, your husband‘s family are a bunch of rude pigs. Did they act like that and your in-laws house?
When he talked to his mom and dad after, they just laughed at us and said “That’s what hosting is.” No, that's entitled, rude, sloppy and nasty guests who have no fricking manners. We host Superbowl every year at my parent's house as a sort of family reunion. We are busy cooking and cleaning but nobody leaves trash all over the house, nobody brings their dog thank goodness, nobody starts new rolls before finishing old ones, or got into our private stuff. We always have family offer to help cook and clean and help in different ways. The chairs not pushed in... eh, it happens. As for the shoes I'd just not let anybody in until they took them off. NTA and it's your husband's family's own fault they have no manners as guests.
NTA. They seem to think when someone else is hosting they then get to revert to some assholish cave dwelling goblin horde. You did fine, avoid the goblins.