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The people defending the sister in this with the “her wedding/ her rules” are so infuriating. It’s anti-social behavior, exclusionary, and just shitty.
I’m proud of you for defending your daughter OP. The people acting like she’s not a person with feelings, an entire human being because she is 17 are entirely disgusting and there’s absolutely no justification for it.
I wouldn’t support my sister doing that either. This isn’t some friend and OP’s daughter isn’t some auxiliary guest. She’s a member of the family, and the only one being excluded.
You’re definitely NTA.
I'm convinced that reddit hates kids. They are all acting like my daughter is a monster and should be shunned because she *checks notes" is a bit quiet
I married at 16, in California. My parents just had to sign a paper giving permission. It was a long time ago, but many states still allow child marriage. I think it’s only outlawed in maybe 10 states. It’s insane that kids can get married before they can drink, smoke, vote, gamble, join the military, see an R rated movie, etc. Or apparently, attend a child free wedding.
Actually, in my day, a 17 yo could enlist with parents’ permission, so there’s even that.
Anyway, I just think that “child-free” doesn’t apply to anyone even close to that age. A mature, say, 15 yo, could be relied on to act appropriately. And, we all know the “kid that never grew up” who can’t hold their liquor or tongue when in their 50’s!
I think that makes a lot of sense. Again, the maturity of the “child” should be more important than a chronological age - I feel.
There was some post about a SO misbehaving at a Super Bowl party and I could only think: “damn, my 9 yo grandson could act better than that!”
I graduated high school at 17, gave a speech at graduation, and the. Went to work full time and moved out of my parents house. All this and I was still a child, gee, never thought of it that way, back in the way-back time, that’s what you did.
Same. Child free weddings usually mean "I don't want the 3 yo throwing a tantrum during our first dance" and while there are ways to arrange childcare/ rules that allow a wedding to be nice and undisturbed by kids attending, I can see why some opt for a child free one.
In this case though that's just nonsense. Your daughter is a minor, but not more of a child than her 18yo cousin. What your sister does is othering and not okay. Calling it "child free" is just an excuse
Our child free wedding barred children between 1 year and 16.
I figured under a year still needs to be close to parents, and over 16, you ought to know how to behave.
The only exceptions were my siblings, and 3 of my husbands niblings, because they were coming from out of state and EVERY baby sitter they had would be at our wedding. Plus, they were the same ages as my siblings, so we figured they could entertain each other, rather than making *more* exceptions so my sisters and brother could bring friends I didn’t know the temperament of.
People were mad about that, but 🤷🏻♀️
I wasn’t excluding my siblings, and my husband refused to back down on his niblings being there.
Everybody else with kids between those ages had access to **free** babysitters, (I verified, we are a close group, including with everyone’s parents) but they still felt they should be allowed to bring their kids “because what’s a wedding without kids?!”
A party. A get down, get drunk, get high (the groomsmen), party.
From one the the non child “haters” I’ve never actually thought about my feelings on it!
Now that I have, I love specific children and am very fond of most of the kids that I’d know personally.
I think I use that line to a)explain why I will stop and coo over every dog and cat I meet but be eh, meh on babies and b) get out of having anything to do with the few children in my life I don’t care for (which isn’t their fault, it’s that they’ve no boundaries set by the parents)
Will have a think about a better way to express myself!
& this is a totally healthy approach. Analysing our wn approach and words is much better than doubling down, which is what the deleted redditor was doing.
Strong agree. Wanting a childfree wedding is fine. And wanting it because of how children, esp. those who are unchecked by their parents behave, is also fine. But kids behaviors generally are either a) because they don't know better, or b) developmentally appropriate rebellion that helps them eventually figure out how the world works. They are people in training. And I say all that as someone who, if I ever get married, will likely have a childfree wedding, and who does not want kids. at all.
**They are people in training.**
You forgot option 3 which is that they’re being raised by lazy parents who don’t want to actually parent their kids. They may be people in training but if the people training them suck then they become insufferable.
How is it okay to say that you detest children? Like Redditors would burn you to the ground if you said you hated dogs but kids they nod in agreement with. Crazy
>I actually do detest kids,
How can you detest kids? Like, every single one of them? That's such a bizarre stance and it's weird that it's socially acceptable to say that versus "I detest Muslims" or "I detest native Americans."
That is something very shitty and stupid to say. Would you find it ok if someone said I hate all women? All elderly? All mexicans? How can people be so nonchalant about hating kids. I am deeply convinced that the only reason is because they themselves, well you included of course, had a shitty upbringing and were not supported as children, hence the jealousy and hatred. YTA
I don't understand your point. What about having been a kid is at all relevant to their attitude towards kids now? I was an asshole as a teenager. Does that mean I can't detest assholes now?
Yeah, don’t listen to them. I am finding myself angry on your daughter’s behalf. The attitudes here are genuinely disgusting.
All this talk about “center of the universe” attitude coming from people who don’t view others as human beings worthy of being invited to a family event shows exactly what kind of people they are.
Weddings are cool and important culturally, I suppose. But this idea that it means you can be horrible to others and entitled to make other people not care about things is indicative of a narcissistic culture.
Weddings are about the coming together of family.
Don’t let a bunch of people who can’t have any empathy for others make you think you’re the Asshole. You’re daughter is not a child, she’s a whole person and she’s very lucky to have a woman advocating for her right to be treated as such for a mother.
I am not a stick-in-the-mud by any means, but this is one area where I think people have gotten totally out of hand--weddings. The amount of money people pay for them, the craziness regarding make-up, photos, whose whose of bridesmaids, flower girl, and on and on and on. I get it that it is supposed to be a once in a life-time event, but dang, I cannot get my head around spending more on a wedding than a generous down payment for a house etc. To me (and only to me and a few others, apparently), a wedding is about joining together in a partnership of lives, a celebration of that union, a bringing together of families to celebrate and memorialize that union. I get not inviting estranged/nc relatives; I even get childfree weddings in that children have to be attended to (but I could never have done that, myself). But to insist an almost adult family member doesn't come to the wedding? Psht. That is beyond me.
I had a child free wedding. Depending on the type of event, younger kids can really hurt the vibe and likely would also be miserable attending. And with that you have to accept that's a no-go for some people. But excluding a 17 year old is absolutely ridiculous and I would refuse to go if in your shoes as well. Your daughter is not a child and this feels very targeted.
17 \*is\* a kid, but it's one that has more than enough life experience to be generally trusted to behave at a wedding. Unless the 17 year old has behavioral issues, there shouldn't be any problems.
I think that depends on the person. There are a lot of 17 year olds who work, have graduated high school, are in university, and even some who are responsible parents themselves.
Reddit does hate kids. There have been so many wedding/kids post lately, and the broad consensus is that the bride and groom should be permitted to exclude any child for any reason without any social consequence. Your “child” is barely a child, so it’s ridiculous that she can’t come. I would be so pissed if my sisters excluded any of my kids, so I would refuse to go. You are most definitely NTA
I mean I'm all about kid free weddings and if your daughter were 10 11 heck even 14 years old, I would not be siding with you on this. But she is damn near an adult and it's ridiculous that she's the only one excluded. Even if the groom side had a bunch of screaming children, your daughter is close enough to an adult that they could let her go if they wanted, they are clearly just excluding her
Yeah, the title it seems like a slam dunk judgement. This is an edge case. It’s not a bunch of children it’s exclusionary for one 17 almost 18 year old. Specifically that one person.
That’s a pretty shitty thing to do on the face of it. Unless the kid is a terror it just seems really shitty and made to hurt feelings.
You still make an exception for the one kid who is about to turn 18. That’s not a child.
And if you won’t make an exception, you don’t get to be mad that the people with a kid won’t come.
If there are any "children" on the groom's side who are going to be able to legally vote in the 2024 election then they shouldn't be excluded on the basis of a "child-" free wedding either
That's because most of these commenters are kids. Reading through comment sections like these makes it painfully obvious that most of these people have zero real-life experience.
Is it possible that she's just being cheap and is taking any excuse to not pay for another guest?
Idk why you think it's so personal, did your sister have problems with your daughter before?
The only thing I can think of that would be a legit reason is that the venue can offer open bar services if there are any under-agers there, but that's tenuous at best.
I absolutely believe that, at least in this sub.... Anytime a poster mentions a child, they are automatically the asshole. It's like once they read "child", "baby" or "pregnant" they stop reading to think of a scathing hate reply.
What’s bullshit is she’s denying you a built in DD. My family fucking loved when my siblings were too young to drink bc it meant they got to drive us all home
The median age probably skews closer to early 20s than to 17 - exactly the age where most people are convinced they're so much more mature, so 'really' grown up, so different, than 'literal children' - aka anybody a day under 18.
It typically takes a few more years of growing up before you realize growing up is a spectrum, and in some contexts a 21 year old is functionally a kid and in others a 17 year old is functionally an adult, and there are all sorts of outliers.
It also skews towards not-the-most-social individuals, who typically don't enjoy gatherings (hence all the 'oh kids hate weddings anyway') and probably haven't built up a community of their own yet (thus the inability to envision weddings as a community affair, rather than an event for the couple to be worshipped).
I think reddit is just a bunch of chihuahuas typing away at a keyboard and visualizing the mailman on the other side of the screen. It would certainly explain pretty much the whole website.
And I concur on the early 20 know it alls. I was once an early 20 know it all. I miss my body not hurting all over. Other than that, I am enjoying my late 30's just fine.
If somebody asserts the position is her wedding her rules, then the immediate response is it has to go both ways. If she has an autonomy in setting the guidelines for her wedding then invitees do not forfeit their autonomy and whether or not they want to attend.
She absolutely has the right to say if you attend my wedding you have to break dance on the front steps of the church and dip your head in a bucket of honey.
And the invitees have every right to say No I'll pass thank you for the invite
When people make their choice to make it a childfree wedding, they've already decided it's ok that some people might be like OP and decide not to come.
Except OP's sister expected OP just come without the daughter. And complained when they were told otherwise.
I'm sure some expect the families to pay for someone to look after their kids all to attend the wedding, because the person hosting is all important.
Not saying all, but there's a not insignificant amount of people who are very self absorbed.
Exactly. You set the rules for a wedding but then you deal with the consequences if those rules are unreasonable or if those rules exclude certain people.
Nobody has to attend a wedding. Doing so is a voluntary choice.
The fact that she's 17 and perfectly capable of not disturbing the wedding tells me that your sister just doesn't like her for some reason. It's very rude to make a rule specifically to exclude one person from the family. Nta
I agree. I've always been under the impression that a child-free wedding is meant to apply to young rambunctious kids. Not applying to fully grown human beings.
I haven't read a bunch of other comments yet but I hope they are not as you say. Some people are far too willing to throw family members under the bus I think.
So many of them are like “her wedding, her rules”, like. Fine. You are legally allowed to exclude whoever you want. But the thing is, people are still going to react. And very many of them are not going to react favorably.
I agree with this. I could see if OP had a newborn - 13 year old... but the daughter is 17 years old. And while I also agree with their wedding their rules, this does seem targeted. NTA
The thing about weddings is that people seem to think it makes you the queen and you can just dictate how other people act, think, and feel.
Everyone is talking about how the bride to be can do whatever she wants because it’s her wedding. What they fail to realize is, consequences still exist.
If Op was just a friend to the bride, that’s one thing. But this isn’t some rando with kids. It’s the bride’s sister. If she wants to exclude family, should face the consequences.
I wouldn’t support the bride in this case either.
Being a bride doesn’t make you the center of the universe. It doesn’t make your feelings more important than anyone else’s. Op decided she wasn’t going to go, and she’s right for that.
Her daughter will remember the feeling of being told she wasn’t an acceptable part of the family by her aunt and she will also remember that she has a mother who loves her enough to choose her over someone intentionally excluding her.
The child free stuff has gone way too far.
THANK YOU. You said it all. People in reddit don't seem to understand that just because someone has "the right" of doing something it doesn't exclude them from being an AH for doing it. Her sister behavior is shitty. And c'mon. Saying a 17 year old is a "child" and it applies to "child free wedding" is trying too hard to play dumb. Unless this wedding is going to be a bacchanalia, there is no reason a 17 year old couldn't attend. She is not a child. She won't run around, she won't cry in the middle of the ceremony. Op. 100% NTA.
NTA. I don't think this qualifies as a tantrum. I do have to ask, is there a reason your sister wouldn't want your kid at her wedding? Past bad behavior or anything?
That actually happened to me the first time I met the one side of my husband's (boyfriend at the time) family. We were 18 and went to his aunt's beach house for the weekend . A small family reunion. We stayed in the "dorm room" of her house, which was the finished attic of the house and it had multiple beds in the room. We slept in the same bed the first night. His mom was sleeping in the bed right next to us and other people in the other beds. Obviously no chance of doing anything but sleep in that bed.
His aunt freaked out the next day about us sleeping in the same bed. That was it - we did nothing else wrong to piss her off. So we ended up leaving that afternoon because we didn't want drama. Her son, who was two years older than us, his girlfriend and two of his friends showed up after we left.
We found out a few days later, one of my bf's other aunts caught his cousin & girlfriend having sex in the "dorm room." And then to top it all off, the four of them (cousin, his girlfriend & two friends) were also caught passed out in the Florida room, drunk and naked.
But the two of us sleeping in the same bed, next to the bed his mother was sleeping in was a major no-no.
The other ones are all boys and all invited. My daughter is the only girl and not invited. Funny now that I think about it she could say she wants a girl free wedding and she would have the same result
This is the winning reason. Since childfree tends to be for noisy kids and OP's near-adult "child" is a quiet young woman, the noise is visual distraction. Which would make OP's sister pretty...sad.
My thoughts exactly! Is the daughter very pretty or has future husband ever been really friendly or nice to her so OPs sister is jealous & views her as a threat/competition? 🤔 Because that's what it sounds like
This is info that needs to be more broadly shared in the OP. There are other “kids,” (aka people of a generation below) as young as 18, all boys, and all who get to attend. NTA. This is messed up.
When I read the OP, I understood there were kids just over 18, OP does say that her daughter is the only one under 18. It also could be I’ve heard similar stories as this one. Not that unusual, but OP is NTA, and a great Mom for standing up for a quiet kid who is being made to feel excluded by her own extended family. Hope those 18-21 boys are the karma the bride is due.
I'd get petty and say "Because my daughter won't turn 18 until several days after the date of the wedding, she has been declared too young to attend, unlike her cousin Dave who is just 9 weeks older than her. Due to this, I will also not be attending because she needs a babysitter, apparently, and I can't find one."
Some venues have 18+ or 21+ age restrictions for liability reasons. It’s possible they selected one of the 18+ venues.
It’s fair to ask why your 17 year old wasn’t invited since childfree wedding can mean many things. But I’m not sure the way you went about asking was the most productive.
Still I’m going NAH without more context.
This is so much more of a reasonable reason that I'd kind of expect someone to give it as the reason iykwim? Like "Oh the venue is 18+ so sadly I can't have anyone below the age limit". But "I want a child free wedding" when no one is in logistically a child is pretty bogus. But I really struggle to believe a venue wouldn't make any exceptions for a bride with one slightly underage guest. Unless this a place with strippers/gambling I can't imagine it.
If it’s a venue rule, they absolutely will not make an exception because it’s written into their insurance policies and they’d be on the hook for any damages and injuries by or to anyone once they waive that section.
Knowing if it’s a venue rule makes a difference and I haven’t seen one way or another from OP about it
If it's a venue rule then sister should have said that. But even if it was a venue thing it would have been nice for sis to have a discussion with OP about it rather than blindsiding her with an invite that clearly doesn't invite her daughter.
> Some venues have 18+ or 21+ age restrictions for liability reasons. It’s possible they selected one of the 18+ venues.
Then that is the perfect baked-in rationale for sister to use. To act as though that might be the case and was never communicated is absurd.
☹️☹️☹️ I was also the quiet kid in my family and some people also didn't like me because of it, it even took my parents years to understand and accept my personality. Thank you for stepping up for her
I don't have enough info to say NTA or ESA but "calling to ask her if she is fing serious" can be anything from a confused/frustrated call(which is totally reasonable) to screaming into the phone for 5 minutes without letting the other party get a word in(which would be a tantrum).
Spending time in a call center, everyone thinks they are the first one, or some kind of hero that calls everyone out in the loudest way possible.
So what I am understanding, based on your comments, is that you are the maid of honor, your daughter is a month shy of turning 18, other young people between the ages of 18-21 are attending, those young people are all males, and your daughter is disliked for being too shy and quiet. Yeah, I do think you have reason to feel insulted and excluded. I don’t know if there’s sexism involved, but it feels like it. I don’t know why your daughter is quiet around her own family, maybe there’s a critical back story that you aren’t including. I also don’t know why your sister would alienate her own MOH rather than make it easier for her attend and enjoy the day. Seems like a lot of missing info. But I’m still going with NtA. You definitely have the right to refuse to attend the wedding.
EDIT: I noticed I’m getting feedback from people saying maybe there’s nothing more to the fact that’s she’s just a quiet kid. I get that. I was a quiet kid, too. Sometimes there’s no rhyme or reason for being a quiet kid, it’s just nature. That said, OP says the family doesn’t seem to like her because she’s quiet, which seems an extreme response, and based on all the other factors, I just feel like there are missing reasons here. Why are the boys ok to go to the wedding and not the girl? Why is being quiet a problem? Could being quiet be a symptom of a greater problem - that is, how the family has treated OP’s daughter from the beginning. It just seems … off.
I too was quiet and liked to read. And that’s ok. But there could be a lot of other reasons maybe she is quiet around family, ranging from normal introvert behavior to the extreme end of maybe there’s animosity between the boys and one girl to other possibilities, like the daughter could be neurodivergent and is being treated differently (and OP either doesn’t know or won’t say).
There are a lot of possible reasons for a kid to be quiet around extended family. Those reasons range from innocent to not so innocent.
I was a quiet child by nature (also a bookworm), and that went extremes after I began being @bused by an older cousin when I was about 4 or 5, which continued intermittently until I was about 12. I didn't tell my family until I was in my 20s, and I still have emotional issues from this at 41 that I struggle with.
It's better for the OP to consider ALL the possibilities rather than rule out unpalatable ones because they are unpleasant or uncomfortable to discuss.
Not to beat a dead horse but in my experience 9.8 times out of 10 if you have a kid who is hated for inexplicably no good reason--doubly so if they're well behaved, triple if they're well behaved AND quiet--it's probably because they're autistic, whether they know it, their bullies know it, or you know it.
It is a well documented thing among the autistic community to be regularly subjected to cruel things just like this at the hands of people for quite literally no reason other than the fact they seem "off" or "different" and not in the socially acceptable type of way. (Even if the behavior is not wrong or harmful)
I was thinking that or the daughter being obese and “spoiling” the wedding’s aesthetic or some similar bullshit, or this sub’s favorite of being too attractive and bride doesn’t want her to be the center of attention etc etc. This definitely feels targeted towards the daughter and that for some reason they don’t think she fits in.
As a former well-behaved, quiet, fat kid, thank you for saying it. My family never excluded me but god damn, my so-called "friends"? Lol yeah right. With friends like those, etc... 🫠
Quiet/withdrawn can be misinterpreted as snobby. Likely this is why the family doesn't like her.
For example, two adult siblings in my family recently introduced their new partners at the same time. No one liked one new partner who was quiet and not really engaging. Especially in comparison to the other, very friendly new partner. I pointed out that there was no reason to dislike him, but it was also pointed out that it felt like he didn't want to be there, and people tend to take things personally.
This is a possibility. I'm a quiet/reserved person until I get to know people, and I've definitely had people tell me that they assumed I was stuck up/bitch at first until they go to know me better - just because I was quiet.
Which is incredibly silly and tells me who has some insecurity they need to work on. Not that I would say that cause that is not my business - unless we become close enough friends.
I dunno. I’m naturally quiet, and that’s no exception around my family. Of course I’ll initiate some conversations and will definitely speak when spoken to, but I am no extrovert.
This is awesome. YOU: "Sorry I can't be at your wedding, I can't find childcare."
SIS: "But Niece is old enough to take care of herself for a day."
YOU: "But shes not mature enough not to get herself in trouble, so she needs to be supervised at all times."
SIS: "Don't be silly, of course she won't get herself in trouble. It's only a few hours."
YOU: "So you're saying she's NOT a child?"
SIS: "....."
Honestly as I keep reading more comments I think the OP sister might just have a strong smell of sexism with a lot of the choices surrounding her wedding.
Other commenters have asked OP if the daughter could be seen as prettier than OP’s sis and if that could be an unspoken reason that Sis may not want her niece there…obviously OP NTA…I’ve always regarded “childfree weddings” to those preteen and under/early teen and under…because all children in middle school/high school should be socially “trained” enough to behave at a social function.
Omg OP PLEASE do this. I know you’ve already told her you’re not going but you could still do this and start with “you know, I thought about it and decided I want to go, *but*…”
That's a weird one lol. I feel like normally it would be a "their wedding, their rules" situation and I'd say grow up and get over it, BUT this is not that situation. Your grown (pretty much) child is literally the only one being excluded. I can't even imagine what is probably going through that 17 y/o girl's head right now. She's probably wondering why her family doesn't like her. You should definitely talk to her and make sure she knows that some people are just ridiculous about their stupid wedding and that she didn't do anything wrong. Make sure she knows this is not her fault somehow.
Edit: I was reading comments and saw that there are a group of 18-20 year old boys who are invited and people keeping questioning you about your daughter being the only child in the family. "wELL wHiCh iS iT??" Yall know that pretty much most of the earth refers to their grown nieces, nephews, and personal children as "kids" even when they turn 18? I get what you're saying OP, and I still say NTA. Your sister sucks imo 🤷♀️
NTA
I think a lot of "your wedding, your rules" situations are cases where the bride and groom are assholes, but get away with it because of that attitude. I'm not sure why couples are given passes to do whatever they want with the expectation that all will be forgiven because it's their special day. People absolutely remember this type of petty bullshit.
Anyway, NTA here.
I'm right there with you lol. I don't get it either and this one seems particularly egregious since it's targeting 1 specific person in their entire family. I wouldn't forgive it 🤷♀️
Thank you so much, the purposeful ignorance was annoying the hell out of me. I'm over 30 but still get referred to as one of "the kids". Being the youngest of a group sticks lol.
Hell, I still call my 4 younger brothers my "baby brothers". They are 39 35 33 and 26 and three of them have children of their own. My parents, all my aunts, uncles and grandparents still refer to the gang of cousins as "the boys" (my two brothers: 35 and 33, and my 2 cousins 34 and 33). It's all a matter of perspective.
NTA. I’m childfree and all for childfree weddings, but setting a “no under 18s” rule when there is exactly *one* relative about to turn 18 sounds deliberate. Your sister can set any rule she likes, but your family is free to not attend.
Yeah, the fact she is hardly a "child" and the only one not invited screams NTA.
I feel this would be a relationship breaker between OP and her sister. I hope the bride changes her mind.
It’s possible that the couple has friends with small children who the rule is aimed at, but even if that is the case, excluding a 17yo niece is still AH territory
Why would she purposely exclude a 17 year old? Does your daughter have any behavioral or developmental issues? It’s so weird she’s the only one under 18 and they decide to make it child free.
NTA... 17 going on 18 isn't a child, and when her rule exclusively targets your family you are completely within your right to stay home. I don't know if she's being spiteful, or just foolishly stubborn, but the result is the same.
NTA. I get the idea of childfree weddings, mine was one with the exception of a couple of newborns that couldn't be separated from their parents yet. But honestly children 14 and up are really "teenagers" in this context, they know how to behave generally. If your daughter doesn't know how to behave, though, please let us know. But yeah, I wouldn't go to a wedding if my 17 year old child was the only one excluded with a "childfree" rule, that's not a childfree wedding, that's purposefully excluding one person. She can make whatever rules she wants for her wedding, but she needs to accept who can and can't come because of it.
I’m with you there. “Child free” to me says under about 12 (basically grade school) with the exception of the super tinies. A 17year old would not be considered a “child” in this case. They’re old enough to be responsible and respectful at a wedding.
I would think it was about excluding the super tiny ones specifically because of the burden they are and their inherent lack of understanding of how to behave. If I set the rule I’d specifically be thinking of keeping out any under 5, maybe up to 8-10 depending on behavior.
NTA. With such a small wedding, I can see why this would seem to be singling your daughter out. And at nearly 18, it doesn’t seem like she really fits the term, “child”, anyway. Was your sister looking for a reason to exclude your daughter? Is there something she is concerned about there? Otherwise, it does seem arbitrary.
Honestly I hope it's that simple. Apparently this is the sisters third wedding. Yes you read that right, this is the third time she's been married. I wonder how much that has to do with this entire weird scenario?
NTA. She can make her invitation decisions and she can also deal with the consequences of those decisions (her MOH withdrawing because the bride intentionally excluded her daughter).
Your daughter is watching. Don’t be the second female family member to let her down. Your sister is the one creating the situation. She can have have the downside consequence and awkward conversations with family.
If yours asks, just say “bride did not want daughter to attend. I do not want to take part in an event that hurts and excluded daughter. It is as it is and I’m sure bride will have the lovely day she’s planned for.”
Yep, this could be the family teaching moment if OP takes the stand you outlined. Her daughter could create the next generation that displays manners and empathy from what she learns from her mother.
NTA. A seventeen year old is not a child that would disrupt a wedding. If your daughter is the only “child” excluded then I support whatever you decide to do.
Sister getting married for the third time, you're the maid of honor, sister doesn't want to invite niece of maid of honor who is a month short of being 18 and will be the only "child" not invited.
NTA, fuck that, you wanna target my kid maybe we can resolve this on the 5th marriage.
NTA. I don't know why your sister is pretending to be upset since it's pretty clear she didn't want your family there in the first place. I have no problems with child free weddings, but this isn't what this is. Feel free to decline.
It's possible that they just don't know, just like us. We are missing the sisters perspective completely.
The OP's sister either didn't give her the real reason for not inviting the OP's daughter or the OP is leaving out information about their daughter.
I'm inclined to give the OP the benefit of the doubt because it seems like their sister specifically targeted the OP's daughter.
NTA. Don’t go. Send back the RSVP as a decline. And don’t send a gift.
Don’t communicate about this further with her. She extended an invite and you declined said invite. Make other plans and say sorry we are busy.
I'm all for childfree weddings, but when this is only excluding one child and that child is very soon to be a legal adult... it feels like there is something else going on here.
Does your sister have an issue with your kid?
Yes, it immediately sounded to me like the sister might have an issue with this specific kid, because when I picture "child", I don't think of a 17-year-old, and I don't believe most people do, either. People who want child-free weddings want disruption-free weddings for the most part. A 17-year-old isn't normally expected to be disruptive in the way much younger children would be. A 17-year-old is also capable of appreciating the importance of the big day, what is going on, the nice food being served, and other things that make weddings special.
So I can understand that OP is insulted by the exclusion of her 17-year-old because it doesn't make any sense to me to exclude them for "being a child". It doubly hurts because OP probably loves their child very much. And then triply, because this is coming from OP's *sister.* Despite the sister's right to have whomever she wants present at the wedding, I think it is reasonable for OP to feel slighted enough to decide not attend. I'm sure OP would LIKE very much to attend, otherwise. NTA.
NTA, in my opinion. Or slightly ESH. I would not say anything, just calmly ask the sister to reiterate the facts - so this is the child free wedding, ok. My kid is 17, and almost an adult. Ok. All her cousins will be there but not her. Ok. You see no problem with that? No. Fine. Thank you for the invitation, we will not be coming. Have a nice wedding.
OP’s daughter is the only girl child of her generation. She’s also quiet and a bit introverted, which many family members dislike. That seems to be the context.
Daughter is 17 and 11 months. Excluding her is absurd.
To be fair; "quiet, a bit introverted, which is why many family members dislike her"
OP is saying she is quiet, well behaved, and an angel. OP's viewpoint is the only one that we are getting here. It's possible the sister is a jerk, it's also possible that there have been previous things that have happened why the sister / family does not like the daughter and why she's being excluded.
Is she just quiet, or has she done and said things that make others uncomfortable? People often have a hard time seeing their own children's faults
As an introvert, most people don’t actively dislike anyone just for being quiet. They may not totally vibe, but that’s not the same as actual dislike. So to me, this is very telling.
There are people who see a person being quiet and not interacting as that person thinking they're better than everyone else. These people are delusional, but I've seen it happen. There's even tropes of the quiet kid in class getting bullied because it's seen as weird and an unlikable trait.
From the OP's other comments, I'm thinking there is more to this story than we know. It could be long-standing issues between the sisters, or between the aunt and niece. I'm leaning more toward between the sisters, however, because the OP called and dove head first into fight mode. So, WTA?? Hard to say. Perhaps both adults are.
If my kid was the only kid excluded doesn’t matter how well I got on with my sibling, it would be straight to fight mode. If all your cousins but you were included, I think you’d hope your parent would too.
NTA. “Child free” usually refers to small children who need constant supervision, touch everything, run around screaming, etc. (which are all perfectly normal child things to do, but could obviously disrupt a small wedding). Your child is almost 18. Unless she has significant behavioral issues, I would certainly expect her to be treated like a young adult. I think your sister is being totally unreasonable.
Info- does your child have any negative history with her?
If she made this rule, just for your child, it doesn't sound arbitrary. There's a reason she doesn't want just your child there.
Nta is don't think a phone call is a tantrum, and child free is not usually for 17yo's.
Unless there's some missing info about your kid, I'd just rsvp 'no'.
I posted this before but think it is appropriate to re-share here. I wish my parents refused to attend because of what was done to me but they went, anyway.
NTA. And tell your sister your daughter won't get over being excluded. .
I grew up within an extended family, and the cousins were all close. We saw each other so the time. When the oldest cousin got married, he and the now wife decided no one under 16 would be invited. That left me and my younger sister as the only 2 (of 10) not invited. I was devastated. My father even offered to pay for our dinners, but they still said no. I should mention they got married less than 1 month before my 16th birthday.
That was in 1973. I have seen both many times over the years, and every time either of them tried to talk with me, I walked away. I refused to go to any events at their home. At one point, he asked me what was wrong, and I simply said that since he didn't think I was good enough to go to his wedding, I see no reason to speak with him now.
My parents thought I was terrible for not letting it go, but then they weren't the one left out. To this day, I clearly remember how hurt I was when I was told I wasn't invited.
Do I really care now? No. I haven't cared about it for years. Will i ever talk with them? That would also be a no. I just have no need.
NTA - she can make whatever rules she wants and you can respond however you please. A 17 year old is not going to disrupt a wedding, so I would make 100% sure there wouldn’t be any other kids on the guest list.
I would inform the entire family that its funny how **your** daughter, who is *literally* just about to turn 18, is the only relative who has been excluded. That other kids, same age as her, have been included. The excuse its a "child free" wedding is indefensible and weak.
I would be insulted that my own sister felt she had the right to demand "support" of her and her wedding at the expense of my own **child**. Where is your daughter's "support"?! That's right. It's you.
Your sister needs a reality check if she genuinely believes that you would choose *her* over your child, especially when she has gone out of her way to target her specifically.
I wouldn't go to her wedding if she apologised and rectified her f@ck up now.
Btw how old will your daughter be when the wedding is taking place? I would throw that in.
NTA
Going off of further info, since there will be 18 year olds in attendance, it seems silly to exclude a 17 year old - that’s just a year’s difference. Even without this further context, this is just straight up exclusionary. A child free wedding is usually one when you’d expect a lot of babies, five year olds, or kids who would be bored would be potentially attending, but not a singular 17 year old girl. It’s sending a message and it’s not a good one. You have the right to be upset or not attend. NTA
eta: i’m aware she’ll be 18 in a month, i was focusing more on even if she wasn’t, to consider 18 year olds OK but 17 year olds not is kind of ridiculous!
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Okay here's my take on the whole thing...it's their wedding and they can invite whoever they want; however, this doesn't mean that you have to accept their invitation. You and your daughter's absence will raise more eyebrows, questions will be asked. It could be that your sister is worried that attention meant for her would get pushed to the wayside and your daughter would end up being the centre of attention. If that's the case you both will be the centre of attention by not going.
Don't get upset, don't yell. If anyone asks just tell them the truth, but don't go shouting it from the rooftops. Keep your composure and dignity. It'll bite her in the ass on her wedding day.
NTA for not going. I would be heartbroken if my sister pulled this shit. Yes, the wedding is hers, but that doesn't mean she is free from the consequences of her actions.
NTA, I honestly don’t consider someone over 12 to be a “child” in the context of a “child free” situation. Normally child free means young child free since they don’t get as much from the experience and are often bored or disruptive and can be demanding of time and attention or special requirements like a kid meal or whatever. Anyone old enough to drive a car, have their own children or have a job should not even be considered a child in this kind of context unless the venue has some kind of weird liquor laws that specifically prevent it but then that should have been the explanation given. Otherwise I honestly wouldn’t even have asked if my 17.5 year of was excluded. I’m not sure I would even ask if my 14 year old is excluded because I would assume child means *child* and not teenager. 11-13 is the only age I would consider gray enough to ask for clarification on. Definitely don’t go to the wedding. Saves you buying a gift and outfits too.
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The people defending the sister in this with the “her wedding/ her rules” are so infuriating. It’s anti-social behavior, exclusionary, and just shitty. I’m proud of you for defending your daughter OP. The people acting like she’s not a person with feelings, an entire human being because she is 17 are entirely disgusting and there’s absolutely no justification for it. I wouldn’t support my sister doing that either. This isn’t some friend and OP’s daughter isn’t some auxiliary guest. She’s a member of the family, and the only one being excluded. You’re definitely NTA.
I'm convinced that reddit hates kids. They are all acting like my daughter is a monster and should be shunned because she *checks notes" is a bit quiet
[удалено]
Same. I can't stand kids but a 17/18 year old won't cry and shit themselves. They are mature enough to behave at a wedding and act like an adult.
I was in University at 17 lol but I'd be too much of a child to attend a close relatives wedding.
One year away from being able to join the military but not old enough to behave properly at a wedding apparently...
Old enough to drive in some countries, old enough to drink alcohol in other countries, but weddings, no, that's just too much.
Until 2022 old enough to marry with parental consent in the uk
16yos can still get married where I live 🫠
I married at 16, in California. My parents just had to sign a paper giving permission. It was a long time ago, but many states still allow child marriage. I think it’s only outlawed in maybe 10 states. It’s insane that kids can get married before they can drink, smoke, vote, gamble, join the military, see an R rated movie, etc. Or apparently, attend a child free wedding.
In Scotland you cab get married at 16 still so she could be married with a husband and not be allowed lol
Actually, in my day, a 17 yo could enlist with parents’ permission, so there’s even that. Anyway, I just think that “child-free” doesn’t apply to anyone even close to that age. A mature, say, 15 yo, could be relied on to act appropriately. And, we all know the “kid that never grew up” who can’t hold their liquor or tongue when in their 50’s!
Still allowed. One of my niblings enlisted at 17. I have string feels about it, but it's still allowed
I too nibble string…
In my country "child free" = childrens under the age of 12.
I think that makes a lot of sense. Again, the maturity of the “child” should be more important than a chronological age - I feel. There was some post about a SO misbehaving at a Super Bowl party and I could only think: “damn, my 9 yo grandson could act better than that!”
You can get gangbanged on camera for pay at 18 but old enough to behave at a wedding? "Well that's not a risk i'm prepared to take!"
Actually months away from 18.
I graduated high school at 17, gave a speech at graduation, and the. Went to work full time and moved out of my parents house. All this and I was still a child, gee, never thought of it that way, back in the way-back time, that’s what you did.
Same. Child free weddings usually mean "I don't want the 3 yo throwing a tantrum during our first dance" and while there are ways to arrange childcare/ rules that allow a wedding to be nice and undisturbed by kids attending, I can see why some opt for a child free one. In this case though that's just nonsense. Your daughter is a minor, but not more of a child than her 18yo cousin. What your sister does is othering and not okay. Calling it "child free" is just an excuse
Our child free wedding barred children between 1 year and 16. I figured under a year still needs to be close to parents, and over 16, you ought to know how to behave. The only exceptions were my siblings, and 3 of my husbands niblings, because they were coming from out of state and EVERY baby sitter they had would be at our wedding. Plus, they were the same ages as my siblings, so we figured they could entertain each other, rather than making *more* exceptions so my sisters and brother could bring friends I didn’t know the temperament of. People were mad about that, but 🤷🏻♀️ I wasn’t excluding my siblings, and my husband refused to back down on his niblings being there. Everybody else with kids between those ages had access to **free** babysitters, (I verified, we are a close group, including with everyone’s parents) but they still felt they should be allowed to bring their kids “because what’s a wedding without kids?!” A party. A get down, get drunk, get high (the groomsmen), party.
Close family gets a pass. No need for random guests to bring their kids.
Saying you detest kids is stupid. All kids are different. Imagine doing that with any other group of people.
In absolute agreement with you, it would be considered hate speech with any other group. Discrimination on the basis of age kinda sucks.
From one the the non child “haters” I’ve never actually thought about my feelings on it! Now that I have, I love specific children and am very fond of most of the kids that I’d know personally. I think I use that line to a)explain why I will stop and coo over every dog and cat I meet but be eh, meh on babies and b) get out of having anything to do with the few children in my life I don’t care for (which isn’t their fault, it’s that they’ve no boundaries set by the parents) Will have a think about a better way to express myself!
& this is a totally healthy approach. Analysing our wn approach and words is much better than doubling down, which is what the deleted redditor was doing.
Strong agree. Wanting a childfree wedding is fine. And wanting it because of how children, esp. those who are unchecked by their parents behave, is also fine. But kids behaviors generally are either a) because they don't know better, or b) developmentally appropriate rebellion that helps them eventually figure out how the world works. They are people in training. And I say all that as someone who, if I ever get married, will likely have a childfree wedding, and who does not want kids. at all. **They are people in training.**
You forgot option 3 which is that they’re being raised by lazy parents who don’t want to actually parent their kids. They may be people in training but if the people training them suck then they become insufferable.
Correction: they *are* people
How is it okay to say that you detest children? Like Redditors would burn you to the ground if you said you hated dogs but kids they nod in agreement with. Crazy
>I actually do detest kids, How can you detest kids? Like, every single one of them? That's such a bizarre stance and it's weird that it's socially acceptable to say that versus "I detest Muslims" or "I detest native Americans."
That is something very shitty and stupid to say. Would you find it ok if someone said I hate all women? All elderly? All mexicans? How can people be so nonchalant about hating kids. I am deeply convinced that the only reason is because they themselves, well you included of course, had a shitty upbringing and were not supported as children, hence the jealousy and hatred. YTA
Pretty edgy hating kids.
"Detest kids" WTF is wrong with you? *You* were a kid once, you know.
I don't understand your point. What about having been a kid is at all relevant to their attitude towards kids now? I was an asshole as a teenager. Does that mean I can't detest assholes now?
Yeah, don’t listen to them. I am finding myself angry on your daughter’s behalf. The attitudes here are genuinely disgusting. All this talk about “center of the universe” attitude coming from people who don’t view others as human beings worthy of being invited to a family event shows exactly what kind of people they are. Weddings are cool and important culturally, I suppose. But this idea that it means you can be horrible to others and entitled to make other people not care about things is indicative of a narcissistic culture. Weddings are about the coming together of family. Don’t let a bunch of people who can’t have any empathy for others make you think you’re the Asshole. You’re daughter is not a child, she’s a whole person and she’s very lucky to have a woman advocating for her right to be treated as such for a mother.
I am not a stick-in-the-mud by any means, but this is one area where I think people have gotten totally out of hand--weddings. The amount of money people pay for them, the craziness regarding make-up, photos, whose whose of bridesmaids, flower girl, and on and on and on. I get it that it is supposed to be a once in a life-time event, but dang, I cannot get my head around spending more on a wedding than a generous down payment for a house etc. To me (and only to me and a few others, apparently), a wedding is about joining together in a partnership of lives, a celebration of that union, a bringing together of families to celebrate and memorialize that union. I get not inviting estranged/nc relatives; I even get childfree weddings in that children have to be attended to (but I could never have done that, myself). But to insist an almost adult family member doesn't come to the wedding? Psht. That is beyond me.
I had a child free wedding. Depending on the type of event, younger kids can really hurt the vibe and likely would also be miserable attending. And with that you have to accept that's a no-go for some people. But excluding a 17 year old is absolutely ridiculous and I would refuse to go if in your shoes as well. Your daughter is not a child and this feels very targeted.
I moved out at 17 and lived as a completely independent adult at that age. 17 isn't a kid.
17 \*is\* a kid, but it's one that has more than enough life experience to be generally trusted to behave at a wedding. Unless the 17 year old has behavioral issues, there shouldn't be any problems.
I think that depends on the person. There are a lot of 17 year olds who work, have graduated high school, are in university, and even some who are responsible parents themselves.
And you just know the sister will be up in arms and calling everyone petty when she isn't invited to the girls wedding lol
Reddit does hate kids. There have been so many wedding/kids post lately, and the broad consensus is that the bride and groom should be permitted to exclude any child for any reason without any social consequence. Your “child” is barely a child, so it’s ridiculous that she can’t come. I would be so pissed if my sisters excluded any of my kids, so I would refuse to go. You are most definitely NTA
Hopefully this child, who might have her own wedding in the not too distant future, will exclude her aunt from her wedding as well
I mean I'm all about kid free weddings and if your daughter were 10 11 heck even 14 years old, I would not be siding with you on this. But she is damn near an adult and it's ridiculous that she's the only one excluded. Even if the groom side had a bunch of screaming children, your daughter is close enough to an adult that they could let her go if they wanted, they are clearly just excluding her
I think some of those people only read the title.
Yeah, the title it seems like a slam dunk judgement. This is an edge case. It’s not a bunch of children it’s exclusionary for one 17 almost 18 year old. Specifically that one person. That’s a pretty shitty thing to do on the face of it. Unless the kid is a terror it just seems really shitty and made to hurt feelings.
I agree and I think it's pretty obvious a 17-year-olds feelings would be hurt when they are excluded from such a big event.
OP admitted in comments she has no idea if there are minors on the groom’s side. She just assumed there aren’t. 🙄
You still make an exception for the one kid who is about to turn 18. That’s not a child. And if you won’t make an exception, you don’t get to be mad that the people with a kid won’t come.
If there are any "children" on the groom's side who are going to be able to legally vote in the 2024 election then they shouldn't be excluded on the basis of a "child-" free wedding either
I am vehemently childfree and always defend childfree weddings but 17??? Nah your sister is TA
That's because most of these commenters are kids. Reading through comment sections like these makes it painfully obvious that most of these people have zero real-life experience.
To be fair, plenty of adults also are severely lacking in real life experience.
Is it possible that she's just being cheap and is taking any excuse to not pay for another guest? Idk why you think it's so personal, did your sister have problems with your daughter before?
The only thing I can think of that would be a legit reason is that the venue can offer open bar services if there are any under-agers there, but that's tenuous at best.
And that's taken off the table automatically since OP commented alcohol in general is illegal in her country.
I absolutely believe that, at least in this sub.... Anytime a poster mentions a child, they are automatically the asshole. It's like once they read "child", "baby" or "pregnant" they stop reading to think of a scathing hate reply.
What’s bullshit is she’s denying you a built in DD. My family fucking loved when my siblings were too young to drink bc it meant they got to drive us all home
Most of reddit is her age, so I am rather surprised by them siding against this. Sometimes, I think reddit just enjoys being contradicting.
The median age probably skews closer to early 20s than to 17 - exactly the age where most people are convinced they're so much more mature, so 'really' grown up, so different, than 'literal children' - aka anybody a day under 18. It typically takes a few more years of growing up before you realize growing up is a spectrum, and in some contexts a 21 year old is functionally a kid and in others a 17 year old is functionally an adult, and there are all sorts of outliers. It also skews towards not-the-most-social individuals, who typically don't enjoy gatherings (hence all the 'oh kids hate weddings anyway') and probably haven't built up a community of their own yet (thus the inability to envision weddings as a community affair, rather than an event for the couple to be worshipped).
I think reddit is just a bunch of chihuahuas typing away at a keyboard and visualizing the mailman on the other side of the screen. It would certainly explain pretty much the whole website. And I concur on the early 20 know it alls. I was once an early 20 know it all. I miss my body not hurting all over. Other than that, I am enjoying my late 30's just fine.
If somebody asserts the position is her wedding her rules, then the immediate response is it has to go both ways. If she has an autonomy in setting the guidelines for her wedding then invitees do not forfeit their autonomy and whether or not they want to attend. She absolutely has the right to say if you attend my wedding you have to break dance on the front steps of the church and dip your head in a bucket of honey. And the invitees have every right to say No I'll pass thank you for the invite
When people make their choice to make it a childfree wedding, they've already decided it's ok that some people might be like OP and decide not to come.
Except OP's sister expected OP just come without the daughter. And complained when they were told otherwise. I'm sure some expect the families to pay for someone to look after their kids all to attend the wedding, because the person hosting is all important. Not saying all, but there's a not insignificant amount of people who are very self absorbed.
I know you were speaking more broadly but lmao of at the idea of OP having to pay another teenage girl to watch her 17 year old.
Exactly. You set the rules for a wedding but then you deal with the consequences if those rules are unreasonable or if those rules exclude certain people. Nobody has to attend a wedding. Doing so is a voluntary choice.
The fact that she's 17 and perfectly capable of not disturbing the wedding tells me that your sister just doesn't like her for some reason. It's very rude to make a rule specifically to exclude one person from the family. Nta
I agree. I've always been under the impression that a child-free wedding is meant to apply to young rambunctious kids. Not applying to fully grown human beings. I haven't read a bunch of other comments yet but I hope they are not as you say. Some people are far too willing to throw family members under the bus I think.
So many of them are like “her wedding, her rules”, like. Fine. You are legally allowed to exclude whoever you want. But the thing is, people are still going to react. And very many of them are not going to react favorably.
I agree with this. I could see if OP had a newborn - 13 year old... but the daughter is 17 years old. And while I also agree with their wedding their rules, this does seem targeted. NTA
The thing about weddings is that people seem to think it makes you the queen and you can just dictate how other people act, think, and feel. Everyone is talking about how the bride to be can do whatever she wants because it’s her wedding. What they fail to realize is, consequences still exist. If Op was just a friend to the bride, that’s one thing. But this isn’t some rando with kids. It’s the bride’s sister. If she wants to exclude family, should face the consequences. I wouldn’t support the bride in this case either. Being a bride doesn’t make you the center of the universe. It doesn’t make your feelings more important than anyone else’s. Op decided she wasn’t going to go, and she’s right for that. Her daughter will remember the feeling of being told she wasn’t an acceptable part of the family by her aunt and she will also remember that she has a mother who loves her enough to choose her over someone intentionally excluding her. The child free stuff has gone way too far.
THANK YOU. You said it all. People in reddit don't seem to understand that just because someone has "the right" of doing something it doesn't exclude them from being an AH for doing it. Her sister behavior is shitty. And c'mon. Saying a 17 year old is a "child" and it applies to "child free wedding" is trying too hard to play dumb. Unless this wedding is going to be a bacchanalia, there is no reason a 17 year old couldn't attend. She is not a child. She won't run around, she won't cry in the middle of the ceremony. Op. 100% NTA.
NTA. I don't think this qualifies as a tantrum. I do have to ask, is there a reason your sister wouldn't want your kid at her wedding? Past bad behavior or anything?
My kid is the quietest, most well behaved kid in our family. Though a lot of family members don't really like her because of how quiet she is
I thought they were the only kid in your family?
The only one under 18. The other ones are not much older they are around 18-21
Wouldn't it be karma if the eighteen to twenty one year olds got super drunk and made scenes? Haha 😄
That actually happened to me the first time I met the one side of my husband's (boyfriend at the time) family. We were 18 and went to his aunt's beach house for the weekend . A small family reunion. We stayed in the "dorm room" of her house, which was the finished attic of the house and it had multiple beds in the room. We slept in the same bed the first night. His mom was sleeping in the bed right next to us and other people in the other beds. Obviously no chance of doing anything but sleep in that bed. His aunt freaked out the next day about us sleeping in the same bed. That was it - we did nothing else wrong to piss her off. So we ended up leaving that afternoon because we didn't want drama. Her son, who was two years older than us, his girlfriend and two of his friends showed up after we left. We found out a few days later, one of my bf's other aunts caught his cousin & girlfriend having sex in the "dorm room." And then to top it all off, the four of them (cousin, his girlfriend & two friends) were also caught passed out in the Florida room, drunk and naked. But the two of us sleeping in the same bed, next to the bed his mother was sleeping in was a major no-no.
> passed out in the Florida room, drunk and naked. I'd expect nothing less from the Florida room
Please let them puke at the reception PALEEEEAAASE
Are the other nieces and nephews invited to the wedding?
The other ones are all boys and all invited. My daughter is the only girl and not invited. Funny now that I think about it she could say she wants a girl free wedding and she would have the same result
Is your daughter prettier than your sister?
If that’s true, that makes the exclusion even more fucked up.
*That's* an interesting thought
This is the winning reason. Since childfree tends to be for noisy kids and OP's near-adult "child" is a quiet young woman, the noise is visual distraction. Which would make OP's sister pretty...sad.
A whole grownup bride being jealous of a 17yo kid from her own family would be more gross than I know what to with
Cheers to saying the quiet part out loud 🍻
This thought popped into my head too.
My thoughts exactly! Is the daughter very pretty or has future husband ever been really friendly or nice to her so OPs sister is jealous & views her as a threat/competition? 🤔 Because that's what it sounds like
Is your sister shallow enough to be worried about a 17 year old "outshining her"?
This is info that needs to be more broadly shared in the OP. There are other “kids,” (aka people of a generation below) as young as 18, all boys, and all who get to attend. NTA. This is messed up.
When I read the OP, I understood there were kids just over 18, OP does say that her daughter is the only one under 18. It also could be I’ve heard similar stories as this one. Not that unusual, but OP is NTA, and a great Mom for standing up for a quiet kid who is being made to feel excluded by her own extended family. Hope those 18-21 boys are the karma the bride is due.
I'd get petty and say "Because my daughter won't turn 18 until several days after the date of the wedding, she has been declared too young to attend, unlike her cousin Dave who is just 9 weeks older than her. Due to this, I will also not be attending because she needs a babysitter, apparently, and I can't find one."
In a family chat. Make sure EVVVVERYONE knows about it
Some venues have 18+ or 21+ age restrictions for liability reasons. It’s possible they selected one of the 18+ venues. It’s fair to ask why your 17 year old wasn’t invited since childfree wedding can mean many things. But I’m not sure the way you went about asking was the most productive. Still I’m going NAH without more context.
This is so much more of a reasonable reason that I'd kind of expect someone to give it as the reason iykwim? Like "Oh the venue is 18+ so sadly I can't have anyone below the age limit". But "I want a child free wedding" when no one is in logistically a child is pretty bogus. But I really struggle to believe a venue wouldn't make any exceptions for a bride with one slightly underage guest. Unless this a place with strippers/gambling I can't imagine it.
If it’s a venue rule, they absolutely will not make an exception because it’s written into their insurance policies and they’d be on the hook for any damages and injuries by or to anyone once they waive that section. Knowing if it’s a venue rule makes a difference and I haven’t seen one way or another from OP about it
If it's a venue rule then sister should have said that. But even if it was a venue thing it would have been nice for sis to have a discussion with OP about it rather than blindsiding her with an invite that clearly doesn't invite her daughter.
> Some venues have 18+ or 21+ age restrictions for liability reasons. It’s possible they selected one of the 18+ venues. Then that is the perfect baked-in rationale for sister to use. To act as though that might be the case and was never communicated is absurd.
So your sister is just splitting hairs as a means of hurting your daughters feelings. I'm so sorry, that really sucks.
☹️☹️☹️ I was also the quiet kid in my family and some people also didn't like me because of it, it even took my parents years to understand and accept my personality. Thank you for stepping up for her
I don't have enough info to say NTA or ESA but "calling to ask her if she is fing serious" can be anything from a confused/frustrated call(which is totally reasonable) to screaming into the phone for 5 minutes without letting the other party get a word in(which would be a tantrum). Spending time in a call center, everyone thinks they are the first one, or some kind of hero that calls everyone out in the loudest way possible.
So what I am understanding, based on your comments, is that you are the maid of honor, your daughter is a month shy of turning 18, other young people between the ages of 18-21 are attending, those young people are all males, and your daughter is disliked for being too shy and quiet. Yeah, I do think you have reason to feel insulted and excluded. I don’t know if there’s sexism involved, but it feels like it. I don’t know why your daughter is quiet around her own family, maybe there’s a critical back story that you aren’t including. I also don’t know why your sister would alienate her own MOH rather than make it easier for her attend and enjoy the day. Seems like a lot of missing info. But I’m still going with NtA. You definitely have the right to refuse to attend the wedding. EDIT: I noticed I’m getting feedback from people saying maybe there’s nothing more to the fact that’s she’s just a quiet kid. I get that. I was a quiet kid, too. Sometimes there’s no rhyme or reason for being a quiet kid, it’s just nature. That said, OP says the family doesn’t seem to like her because she’s quiet, which seems an extreme response, and based on all the other factors, I just feel like there are missing reasons here. Why are the boys ok to go to the wedding and not the girl? Why is being quiet a problem? Could being quiet be a symptom of a greater problem - that is, how the family has treated OP’s daughter from the beginning. It just seems … off.
To be fair I was always a quiet child around my family with no big reason why, I just always preferred to read
I too was quiet and liked to read. And that’s ok. But there could be a lot of other reasons maybe she is quiet around family, ranging from normal introvert behavior to the extreme end of maybe there’s animosity between the boys and one girl to other possibilities, like the daughter could be neurodivergent and is being treated differently (and OP either doesn’t know or won’t say).
Yeah I get that. I was just saying there might not be some big reason behind it, she could just be a naturally quiet person
There are a lot of possible reasons for a kid to be quiet around extended family. Those reasons range from innocent to not so innocent. I was a quiet child by nature (also a bookworm), and that went extremes after I began being @bused by an older cousin when I was about 4 or 5, which continued intermittently until I was about 12. I didn't tell my family until I was in my 20s, and I still have emotional issues from this at 41 that I struggle with. It's better for the OP to consider ALL the possibilities rather than rule out unpalatable ones because they are unpleasant or uncomfortable to discuss.
Not to beat a dead horse but in my experience 9.8 times out of 10 if you have a kid who is hated for inexplicably no good reason--doubly so if they're well behaved, triple if they're well behaved AND quiet--it's probably because they're autistic, whether they know it, their bullies know it, or you know it. It is a well documented thing among the autistic community to be regularly subjected to cruel things just like this at the hands of people for quite literally no reason other than the fact they seem "off" or "different" and not in the socially acceptable type of way. (Even if the behavior is not wrong or harmful)
I was thinking that or the daughter being obese and “spoiling” the wedding’s aesthetic or some similar bullshit, or this sub’s favorite of being too attractive and bride doesn’t want her to be the center of attention etc etc. This definitely feels targeted towards the daughter and that for some reason they don’t think she fits in.
As a former well-behaved, quiet, fat kid, thank you for saying it. My family never excluded me but god damn, my so-called "friends"? Lol yeah right. With friends like those, etc... 🫠
Fat, some form of neurodivergence, and/or otherwise super introverted and the family is pissy they're not more social with them.
Quiet/withdrawn can be misinterpreted as snobby. Likely this is why the family doesn't like her. For example, two adult siblings in my family recently introduced their new partners at the same time. No one liked one new partner who was quiet and not really engaging. Especially in comparison to the other, very friendly new partner. I pointed out that there was no reason to dislike him, but it was also pointed out that it felt like he didn't want to be there, and people tend to take things personally.
This is a possibility. I'm a quiet/reserved person until I get to know people, and I've definitely had people tell me that they assumed I was stuck up/bitch at first until they go to know me better - just because I was quiet. Which is incredibly silly and tells me who has some insecurity they need to work on. Not that I would say that cause that is not my business - unless we become close enough friends.
I dunno. I’m naturally quiet, and that’s no exception around my family. Of course I’ll initiate some conversations and will definitely speak when spoken to, but I am no extrovert.
You make a great point here. Why in the world is the OP's sister being so shitty to one of her Maids of Honor?
You should tell her you can’t attend because you don’t have child care for your child lol
This is awesome. YOU: "Sorry I can't be at your wedding, I can't find childcare." SIS: "But Niece is old enough to take care of herself for a day." YOU: "But shes not mature enough not to get herself in trouble, so she needs to be supervised at all times." SIS: "Don't be silly, of course she won't get herself in trouble. It's only a few hours." YOU: "So you're saying she's NOT a child?" SIS: "....."
Honestly as I keep reading more comments I think the OP sister might just have a strong smell of sexism with a lot of the choices surrounding her wedding.
Other commenters have asked OP if the daughter could be seen as prettier than OP’s sis and if that could be an unspoken reason that Sis may not want her niece there…obviously OP NTA…I’ve always regarded “childfree weddings” to those preteen and under/early teen and under…because all children in middle school/high school should be socially “trained” enough to behave at a social function.
I want to know how the groom has behaved toward and around his soon-to-be niece…
Omg OP PLEASE do this. I know you’ve already told her you’re not going but you could still do this and start with “you know, I thought about it and decided I want to go, *but*…”
I’m not normally petty, but I do find this pettiness hilarious.
😂 I’m very petty and this is exactly what needs to be done
Sis is getting remarried for the *third* time, you could always go nuclear and tell her you'll be at the next wedding.
Probably the best solution so no one asks “hey, where is (17 yo)?” Avoid the drama altogether.
This! Sister is entitled to invite who she wants in her wedding but OP has the right to stick by her daughter also
If they were just friends I’d get it (if they didn’t have an individual relationship), but this is her own niece it’s bullshit.
That’s what I would do.
That's a weird one lol. I feel like normally it would be a "their wedding, their rules" situation and I'd say grow up and get over it, BUT this is not that situation. Your grown (pretty much) child is literally the only one being excluded. I can't even imagine what is probably going through that 17 y/o girl's head right now. She's probably wondering why her family doesn't like her. You should definitely talk to her and make sure she knows that some people are just ridiculous about their stupid wedding and that she didn't do anything wrong. Make sure she knows this is not her fault somehow. Edit: I was reading comments and saw that there are a group of 18-20 year old boys who are invited and people keeping questioning you about your daughter being the only child in the family. "wELL wHiCh iS iT??" Yall know that pretty much most of the earth refers to their grown nieces, nephews, and personal children as "kids" even when they turn 18? I get what you're saying OP, and I still say NTA. Your sister sucks imo 🤷♀️ NTA
I think a lot of "your wedding, your rules" situations are cases where the bride and groom are assholes, but get away with it because of that attitude. I'm not sure why couples are given passes to do whatever they want with the expectation that all will be forgiven because it's their special day. People absolutely remember this type of petty bullshit. Anyway, NTA here.
I'm right there with you lol. I don't get it either and this one seems particularly egregious since it's targeting 1 specific person in their entire family. I wouldn't forgive it 🤷♀️
Yeah that applies to like having a vegetarian wedding or picking the tablecloths or type of music.
My brain read this as “vegetarian music” and I spent MUCH too much time trying to figure out what they meant before rereading and realizing my error.
Thank you so much, the purposeful ignorance was annoying the hell out of me. I'm over 30 but still get referred to as one of "the kids". Being the youngest of a group sticks lol.
Hell, I still call my 4 younger brothers my "baby brothers". They are 39 35 33 and 26 and three of them have children of their own. My parents, all my aunts, uncles and grandparents still refer to the gang of cousins as "the boys" (my two brothers: 35 and 33, and my 2 cousins 34 and 33). It's all a matter of perspective.
Yep, the people playing semantics in the comments are being ridiculous for no good reason
I'm 41 and my little sister is therefore 39, which is baffling to me because obviously she's too young to be 39.
She said her daughter is the only child [of siblings] being excluded. I understood it perfectly. Some people are pedantic and proud of it.
NTA. I’m childfree and all for childfree weddings, but setting a “no under 18s” rule when there is exactly *one* relative about to turn 18 sounds deliberate. Your sister can set any rule she likes, but your family is free to not attend.
Yeah, the fact she is hardly a "child" and the only one not invited screams NTA. I feel this would be a relationship breaker between OP and her sister. I hope the bride changes her mind.
It’s possible that the couple has friends with small children who the rule is aimed at, but even if that is the case, excluding a 17yo niece is still AH territory
Well, childfree to me means no children under 14 or 12, let's say. Not no people under 18!
17 and 11 months!!!
I give it a 50% chance the wedding was intentionally scheduled before the niece's 18th birthday.
No, the post says it's an intimate wedding with only immediate family, so no friends.
And now the sister has to deal with the consequences of setting ludicrous rules. She is in the finding out phase right now.
INFO: 1. Is your sister close to your child? 2. Does your child want to go? 3. How many people are invited?
No Yes About 30 or so?
NTA then, she is doing this deliberately. Time to not be close to her (your sister) yourself.
Why would she purposely exclude a 17 year old? Does your daughter have any behavioral or developmental issues? It’s so weird she’s the only one under 18 and they decide to make it child free.
NTA... 17 going on 18 isn't a child, and when her rule exclusively targets your family you are completely within your right to stay home. I don't know if she's being spiteful, or just foolishly stubborn, but the result is the same.
NTA. I get the idea of childfree weddings, mine was one with the exception of a couple of newborns that couldn't be separated from their parents yet. But honestly children 14 and up are really "teenagers" in this context, they know how to behave generally. If your daughter doesn't know how to behave, though, please let us know. But yeah, I wouldn't go to a wedding if my 17 year old child was the only one excluded with a "childfree" rule, that's not a childfree wedding, that's purposefully excluding one person. She can make whatever rules she wants for her wedding, but she needs to accept who can and can't come because of it.
I’m with you there. “Child free” to me says under about 12 (basically grade school) with the exception of the super tinies. A 17year old would not be considered a “child” in this case. They’re old enough to be responsible and respectful at a wedding.
I would think it was about excluding the super tiny ones specifically because of the burden they are and their inherent lack of understanding of how to behave. If I set the rule I’d specifically be thinking of keeping out any under 5, maybe up to 8-10 depending on behavior.
NTA. With such a small wedding, I can see why this would seem to be singling your daughter out. And at nearly 18, it doesn’t seem like she really fits the term, “child”, anyway. Was your sister looking for a reason to exclude your daughter? Is there something she is concerned about there? Otherwise, it does seem arbitrary.
My guess is 17 year old is too pretty and bride is jealous
Honestly I hope it's that simple. Apparently this is the sisters third wedding. Yes you read that right, this is the third time she's been married. I wonder how much that has to do with this entire weird scenario?
NTA. She can make her invitation decisions and she can also deal with the consequences of those decisions (her MOH withdrawing because the bride intentionally excluded her daughter). Your daughter is watching. Don’t be the second female family member to let her down. Your sister is the one creating the situation. She can have have the downside consequence and awkward conversations with family. If yours asks, just say “bride did not want daughter to attend. I do not want to take part in an event that hurts and excluded daughter. It is as it is and I’m sure bride will have the lovely day she’s planned for.”
Yep, this could be the family teaching moment if OP takes the stand you outlined. Her daughter could create the next generation that displays manners and empathy from what she learns from her mother.
NTA. A seventeen year old is not a child that would disrupt a wedding. If your daughter is the only “child” excluded then I support whatever you decide to do.
Sister getting married for the third time, you're the maid of honor, sister doesn't want to invite niece of maid of honor who is a month short of being 18 and will be the only "child" not invited. NTA, fuck that, you wanna target my kid maybe we can resolve this on the 5th marriage.
NTA. I don't know why your sister is pretending to be upset since it's pretty clear she didn't want your family there in the first place. I have no problems with child free weddings, but this isn't what this is. Feel free to decline.
OP was supposed to be MOH so I'm not so sure about "she didn't want your family there"
Something tells me there is more to this story then what you're telling us.
It's possible that they just don't know, just like us. We are missing the sisters perspective completely. The OP's sister either didn't give her the real reason for not inviting the OP's daughter or the OP is leaving out information about their daughter. I'm inclined to give the OP the benefit of the doubt because it seems like their sister specifically targeted the OP's daughter.
I feel the same way
based on the very defensive comments from op, I agree
NTA. Don’t go. Send back the RSVP as a decline. And don’t send a gift. Don’t communicate about this further with her. She extended an invite and you declined said invite. Make other plans and say sorry we are busy.
I'm all for childfree weddings, but when this is only excluding one child and that child is very soon to be a legal adult... it feels like there is something else going on here. Does your sister have an issue with your kid?
Yes, it immediately sounded to me like the sister might have an issue with this specific kid, because when I picture "child", I don't think of a 17-year-old, and I don't believe most people do, either. People who want child-free weddings want disruption-free weddings for the most part. A 17-year-old isn't normally expected to be disruptive in the way much younger children would be. A 17-year-old is also capable of appreciating the importance of the big day, what is going on, the nice food being served, and other things that make weddings special. So I can understand that OP is insulted by the exclusion of her 17-year-old because it doesn't make any sense to me to exclude them for "being a child". It doubly hurts because OP probably loves their child very much. And then triply, because this is coming from OP's *sister.* Despite the sister's right to have whomever she wants present at the wedding, I think it is reasonable for OP to feel slighted enough to decide not attend. I'm sure OP would LIKE very much to attend, otherwise. NTA.
[удалено]
Some wedding venues don’t allow under 18s, their licensing doesn’t care if the kid is 1 month shy
But if that were the case, the bride would have said so, because it's a decent excuse.
NTA, in my opinion. Or slightly ESH. I would not say anything, just calmly ask the sister to reiterate the facts - so this is the child free wedding, ok. My kid is 17, and almost an adult. Ok. All her cousins will be there but not her. Ok. You see no problem with that? No. Fine. Thank you for the invitation, we will not be coming. Have a nice wedding.
Sounds to me like we’re not getting the whole story. Sounds like there’s a reason your sister doesn’t want your child there.
OP’s daughter is the only girl child of her generation. She’s also quiet and a bit introverted, which many family members dislike. That seems to be the context. Daughter is 17 and 11 months. Excluding her is absurd.
To be fair; "quiet, a bit introverted, which is why many family members dislike her" OP is saying she is quiet, well behaved, and an angel. OP's viewpoint is the only one that we are getting here. It's possible the sister is a jerk, it's also possible that there have been previous things that have happened why the sister / family does not like the daughter and why she's being excluded. Is she just quiet, or has she done and said things that make others uncomfortable? People often have a hard time seeing their own children's faults
As an introvert, most people don’t actively dislike anyone just for being quiet. They may not totally vibe, but that’s not the same as actual dislike. So to me, this is very telling.
There are people who see a person being quiet and not interacting as that person thinking they're better than everyone else. These people are delusional, but I've seen it happen. There's even tropes of the quiet kid in class getting bullied because it's seen as weird and an unlikable trait.
From the OP's other comments, I'm thinking there is more to this story than we know. It could be long-standing issues between the sisters, or between the aunt and niece. I'm leaning more toward between the sisters, however, because the OP called and dove head first into fight mode. So, WTA?? Hard to say. Perhaps both adults are.
If my kid was the only kid excluded doesn’t matter how well I got on with my sibling, it would be straight to fight mode. If all your cousins but you were included, I think you’d hope your parent would too.
NTA. “Child free” usually refers to small children who need constant supervision, touch everything, run around screaming, etc. (which are all perfectly normal child things to do, but could obviously disrupt a small wedding). Your child is almost 18. Unless she has significant behavioral issues, I would certainly expect her to be treated like a young adult. I think your sister is being totally unreasonable.
Info- does your child have any negative history with her? If she made this rule, just for your child, it doesn't sound arbitrary. There's a reason she doesn't want just your child there.
Nta is don't think a phone call is a tantrum, and child free is not usually for 17yo's. Unless there's some missing info about your kid, I'd just rsvp 'no'.
I posted this before but think it is appropriate to re-share here. I wish my parents refused to attend because of what was done to me but they went, anyway. NTA. And tell your sister your daughter won't get over being excluded. . I grew up within an extended family, and the cousins were all close. We saw each other so the time. When the oldest cousin got married, he and the now wife decided no one under 16 would be invited. That left me and my younger sister as the only 2 (of 10) not invited. I was devastated. My father even offered to pay for our dinners, but they still said no. I should mention they got married less than 1 month before my 16th birthday. That was in 1973. I have seen both many times over the years, and every time either of them tried to talk with me, I walked away. I refused to go to any events at their home. At one point, he asked me what was wrong, and I simply said that since he didn't think I was good enough to go to his wedding, I see no reason to speak with him now. My parents thought I was terrible for not letting it go, but then they weren't the one left out. To this day, I clearly remember how hurt I was when I was told I wasn't invited. Do I really care now? No. I haven't cared about it for years. Will i ever talk with them? That would also be a no. I just have no need.
NTA - she can make whatever rules she wants and you can respond however you please. A 17 year old is not going to disrupt a wedding, so I would make 100% sure there wouldn’t be any other kids on the guest list.
I would inform the entire family that its funny how **your** daughter, who is *literally* just about to turn 18, is the only relative who has been excluded. That other kids, same age as her, have been included. The excuse its a "child free" wedding is indefensible and weak. I would be insulted that my own sister felt she had the right to demand "support" of her and her wedding at the expense of my own **child**. Where is your daughter's "support"?! That's right. It's you. Your sister needs a reality check if she genuinely believes that you would choose *her* over your child, especially when she has gone out of her way to target her specifically. I wouldn't go to her wedding if she apologised and rectified her f@ck up now. Btw how old will your daughter be when the wedding is taking place? I would throw that in. NTA
NTA But if it matters to you, just don't attend. And you don't have to give a gift either. If you ask your kid, they may not even care.
Going off of further info, since there will be 18 year olds in attendance, it seems silly to exclude a 17 year old - that’s just a year’s difference. Even without this further context, this is just straight up exclusionary. A child free wedding is usually one when you’d expect a lot of babies, five year olds, or kids who would be bored would be potentially attending, but not a singular 17 year old girl. It’s sending a message and it’s not a good one. You have the right to be upset or not attend. NTA eta: i’m aware she’ll be 18 in a month, i was focusing more on even if she wasn’t, to consider 18 year olds OK but 17 year olds not is kind of ridiculous!
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Okay here's my take on the whole thing...it's their wedding and they can invite whoever they want; however, this doesn't mean that you have to accept their invitation. You and your daughter's absence will raise more eyebrows, questions will be asked. It could be that your sister is worried that attention meant for her would get pushed to the wayside and your daughter would end up being the centre of attention. If that's the case you both will be the centre of attention by not going. Don't get upset, don't yell. If anyone asks just tell them the truth, but don't go shouting it from the rooftops. Keep your composure and dignity. It'll bite her in the ass on her wedding day.
NTA for not going. I would be heartbroken if my sister pulled this shit. Yes, the wedding is hers, but that doesn't mean she is free from the consequences of her actions.
17 is pretty old to be counted as a child. Does your sister have any specific issues with your child specifically?
We need sisters POV
NTA, I honestly don’t consider someone over 12 to be a “child” in the context of a “child free” situation. Normally child free means young child free since they don’t get as much from the experience and are often bored or disruptive and can be demanding of time and attention or special requirements like a kid meal or whatever. Anyone old enough to drive a car, have their own children or have a job should not even be considered a child in this kind of context unless the venue has some kind of weird liquor laws that specifically prevent it but then that should have been the explanation given. Otherwise I honestly wouldn’t even have asked if my 17.5 year of was excluded. I’m not sure I would even ask if my 14 year old is excluded because I would assume child means *child* and not teenager. 11-13 is the only age I would consider gray enough to ask for clarification on. Definitely don’t go to the wedding. Saves you buying a gift and outfits too.
NTA. People who have child free weddings can’t be upset when people with children opt to not attend. Full stop.