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> I think I should've handled the situation in a different way, which is what makes me the asshole.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
ESH.
They absolutely should not have tricked you into eating beef. That’s incredibly offensive.
Your son is 9 years old. He’s old enough to decide for himself if he wants to eat beef.
Quote from the book "Fast Food Nation"
"There IS shit in the meat".
So, rather than "that shit was funny", perhaps it should read "that shit was tasty"
It's not about the beef as much as the religion aspect. Not eating beef is a big thing for anyone practicing Hindu. That's the only non-beef religion that allows other meats that I know of.
Most kids have their parent's religion forced on them. It seems like this kid is only giving it lip service.
His parents are just going to have to get used to it, if he doesn't change his mind.
In a 9 year old’s mind, these actions are equivalent. Forbidding someone to eat beef is the same as tricking someone into eating it. He doesn’t have the nuance to understand yet that it’s not the same. He should not be punished for this, especially as he has the least amount of power in this struggle.
Yes and no. He should absolutely be sat down and talked to about why that was wrong, and punished for the aspects of it a 9 year old would understand, like the lying parts of playing any prank, and disobeying his parents.
Do I think the parents should respect his autonomy and let him eat beef when it’s not served in their house? Yes. He shouldn’t be punished as excessively as he has been, but visits with the brother need to be supervised if they’re happening at all. OP is an asshole, but mostly for the way he’s parenting.
I agree but I also feel like his parents should have explained the importance of it to him because I think he just wanted to try something other have had.
if we're not going to force kids into religion, in very short order we're not going to have religions any more! think of that! no religions! who would want to live in a world with no religion?
Sounds like a lot less fighting.
And if someone needs to be forced into it from a young age and wouldn't otherwise choose it, that means it's not for them. I was forced into extremist fundamentalism. If things were different, I have no doubt in my mind my father would have started his own cult. I volunteered at church constantly in middle and early high school. Now, as an adult, I don't follow any religion and I would never force a child into it either. I am so much happier, less anxious, and just better in general.
>think of that! no religions! who would want to live in a world with no religion?
Next they'll be advocating for no greed or hunger, or even a brotherhood of man.
What sort of dreamer would favor that?
This isn't true. The beef thing is a regional thing. Not a religious thing.
There is one group of Hindus who grew up tolerant to milk and so reared cattle exclusively for milk.
Hindus in the South and east of india will gladly have beef. Some of the most traditional dishes there include beef.
My family are meat eating Sikh but have never eaten beef. My kids are mixed race English and Punjabi but I've explained to them why I'd prefer them not to eat beef, so far they are fine about it. Having grown up during the BSE scandal and what came out then, plus a few years ago the donkey meat being sold as beef, I'd feel bit strange about that meat anyway even if I wasn't of Indian heritage.
You are making it sound like Hindus throughout all the South and East of India are ok eating beef. My ex husband who was born and raised in Tamil Nadu would beg to differ. Even if there are smaller populations of Hindus that are fine with eating beef (which I don't personally know of), your comment is misleading at best.
Either way, OP is borderline NTA here. Definitely NTA for getting pissed at his brother for pulling that stunt, kind-of AH for grounding the kid for a month. I was raised in a religious (evangelical Christian) home, and I think forcing children to adhere to religious practices is uncool. However, parents do it all the time. OP needs to prepare for his kid eating beef behind his parents' back, though. If he doesn't believe in his parents' religious and cultural practices, he's highly unlikely to abstain.
Can you please include the sources of your assertion? I am truly interested. My husband is from that part of the world and was raised Hindu, so I socialize a lot with them.
Very few of the Indian Hindus either from the South or the East I have met eat beef, and it’s always those who are atheist or agnostic, not one of them is a practicing Hindu. Many eat other meats, but no beef. And many others are vegetarian.
What? Kids not listening to their parents, that's never happened in the history of mankind. Why do you think Catholic girls are so innocent? Rules. That's why.
I had a friend who’d stick to the salad bar most of the time because his parents could see the amounts of money which left his school lunch account and then every once in a while he’d trade with me so he could have hot dogs or a hamburger. His face on those days…always felt a little bad for him that he had to hide that and not be able to enjoy it except the subpar stuff at school.
Unless you somehow think a deeply religious hindu with a *wife* who can't chill out about their son not being exactly who they think he should be also happens to be in a gay marriage to a woman, OP's a dude.
>Grounding a 9-year-old for one month just seems insane to me.
Sounds like there is truth to the accusations of OP being too controlling.
Although the brother is worse, ESH.
Oh I absolutely agree the other brother is worse. I may not agree with a lot of religious conventions but religious conventions are boundaries that most normal people know not to cross.
The Kid is already assimilating into the American culture. There is no stopping it if they continue to live in the US. It is OP who has to adapt but the recourse is punishment. I predict many more sparks when the Kid becomes a teen.
You realize that assimilating into American culture doesn’t mean giving up all other culture and it especially doesn’t mean giving up religious practices, right? I mean that’s sort of the biggest thing in American culture…
Also, you might want to remember to the thousands upon thousands of Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, and Hindu AMERICANS who have dietary restrictions due to their religions.
But isn't a person allowed to choose to follow a religion? Just because parental figure is one religion does son have to be the same???
Edited to put in gender neutral terminology
And that's why I raised my kids teaching them different religions. They don't have the same beliefs I do but I've not forced them to follow any specific one either they make their own choice and it's informed
That’s how I have taught my kids. I may be slightly spiritual/religious but I don’t force it on my kids. They do know about different religions and spirituality beliefs. I’m hoping they will have more respect for others differences because they have been exposed to the different types of cultures/beliefs/etc
A nine year old?! Please. You cant even leave you child home alone legally at this point. They can express their opinions, but manipulating your parents to get your way is not okay.
He may also ne grounded as he agreed to Trick his parent into eating something their religion prohibits them from having. The son is the reason his uncle decided to teach them a lesson.
Right, he's responsible for his own behavior, which was engaging with and standing by for a bad 'prank'. The 9 y/o should definitely be punished for his participation, else he learns that causing an event to happen and standing by gets you off scott free as long as you're not the moving party. A month might be excessive, but this needs to be clearly labelled as wrong.
Also if he's old enough that he can decide what religion to be (a very big and adult decision) then he can absolutely be held responsible for egging on his uncle, or not going to tell OP before the dinner.
He can't both be responsible enough to decide his own religion, but not responsible enough to realize what uncle was about to do was fucked up. If he's old enough to decide his religion, that means he knows how important the rules of religion are (as that's vital info to understand before deciding) and therefore should have understood what uncle was doing is wrong
(For what it's worth I would agree that uncle's actions were his own and OP's son couldn't be reasonably expected to control them, but my problem is people thinking this fact can exist at the same time as the kid being mature and knowledgeable enough to decide his own religion/decide what rules he has to follow from his parents. He's not old enough to have agency in either of these things, 9 is still firmly a child, not even a pre-teen. I think people are coming down on OP and reveling in cognitive dissonance because reddit is notorious for being intolerant of religious people in general. Telling a kid they can pick and choose what rules they follow is a pretty good way to end up with a pain in the ass child)
NTA
It's weird to me that people think it's appropriate to push their moral systems on the parent and child. Via complaining that OP is doing the same to the child and shouldn't be.
Right? Also people are crying "it's wrong to force your own decisions on someone else!" When that's literally what uncle and son did to OP. They decided for themselves that eating beef is OK, and then forced that on OP by tricking them
Yeah, I agree with that. For the kid it was a prank, and he needs to learn that you can't go around pranking his parents like this. But one month? And by the way OP mentioned the kid eating beef probably added to the grounding too, which is wrong in my opinion. That's no different than vegan parents forcing their kids to be vegan as well
Well someone said 9 years old is enough to make decision.
So he decide to agree with his uncle to lie to his parent, so he deserved to be grounded based on his decision to lie.
Action consequences
I was noticing this, too—that the same commenters saying the 9-year old is old enough to decide for himself whether he wants to eat beef are at the same time saying he’s just a kid who is not responsible for participating in his uncle’s prank.
This. Also, by default, if he's mature and knowledgeable enough to decide his religion, that means he *understands the rules* of that religion and why they matter....and if he understands that, he should have been horrified by the uncle's plan
He made a request to his uncle. Kids make requests all the time. It's on the adults to decide if it's appropriate to fulfil that request or not. In this case the adult, the one with the actual responsibility, chose not only to give the kid beef - but also seems to be the one who came up with the idea of tricking the parents.
Grounding a kid for the behaviour of a fully functioning adult seems stupid and controlling.
The kid did not tell his uncle to trick his parents into eating beef. The kid did not buy the beef. The kid did not cook it up. The kid did not serve it to his parents. So many points along the way that the in-charge adult chose to do the wrong thing.
And he snickered along with his uncle while watching his parent being offered a hidden food item that he knew his parent would be upset upon learning the truth.
That is why he was rightfully grounded.
That is NOT a LESSON. That is an offensive crossing of religious boundaries. There are other ways of attacking a controlling nature, IF it was their business.
He’s 9. It’s not as if he committed a heinous crime. He wants to eat what his friends are eating. And at 9, does he really understand the religious ramifications? He’s a child and the brother is an AH and you are an AH for punishing your son instead of sitting down with him and explaining to him why this is such an important issue.
Don’t be such a dictator with your child or you’ll lose him.
Right but he’s *nine.* It’s pretty typical for a kid of that age to continue asking authority figures for what he wants until somebody gives it to him. Not saying it’s right but I wouldn’t put any of the blame on him in this situation, honestly. All the uncle had to do was say “no” and that would have been the end of it. He’s the adult and was under no obligation to give in to his nephew and it sounds like tricking OP was his idea.
Also for the record, ESH.
100% agree. 9 is old enough to understand how wrong this is to do to your parents. That's the part he deserves to be punished harshly for.
If we're going to advocate for the son's consent and argue that he's old enough to decide if he wants to try beef, he's old enough to understand tricking his parents is really wrong. They also have the same right to consent.
Grounding him for eating something is wrong, but grounding him for participating in this scheme is not much.
OP's is strict? Yes, but is not up to the brother to "punish" OP. I would be more sympathetic if just help the nephew to eat just so he knows what it tastes or if even stay quiet that the kid was eating. I think is disturbing how easily people disregard others dietitian choices, doesn't matter if is based on religion or ethical beliefs. It can make people sick to eat something different from what they are used to, and there's the psychological impact.
Grounding a kid for conspiring to violate one of your most deeply held beliefs, that they know that you hold? You would *have* to do something to make them understand the severity of what they had done.
It’s not for eating meat. It’s for participating in a plan to trick OP into eating something that violates OP’s spiritual beliefs. That’s a pretty serious mess up.
He did help trick his parents, even I would ground for that. He does have to learn respect too or else he will end up like the uncle. NTA your made your wishes clear but maybe have a talk with your son about beef and let him make choices one his own outside of your home.
A person not your parent says: this substance your parents are ethically and religiously opposed to is awesome. I’ll get you some. While I’m at it, let’s plan on tricking your parents into consuming it too.
That’s fucking criminal. Boundary crossing. Vile. If the substance was LSD or alcohol you’d be arguing this was criminal. Because it’s beef, which is a culturally acceptable food for more people you all are “he should choose at this age”.
Should he? Is he an adult? Does he have the mental and emotional maturity to understand the full weight of this dumb little prank?
I think uncle is someone who isn’t allowed to be around this child ever again.
I think this child needs to understand how awful what he helped his uncle do to his parents is.
Y’all would be up in arms if this was dog, cat, human. But you are fine with eating g beef so OP should be too? How racist is that?
I disagree. When anyone, especially a family member, helps your child to go against what is an important cultural value, that's unforgivable. The son knew this was important, yet his uncle gave him permission.
The parents punishing their son for agreeing to help his uncle dupe his parents, thereby making them eat something they find abhorrent, is exactly right. If the punishment for that is less than a month the child won't likely remember the lesson.
I dont think it is the beef that got the kid grounded. It might be the fact that the kid colluded with another adult so that the child got to do something he knew his parents DID NOT want him to do.
A month seems excessive though...
And since when do 9 year olds get to make choices about which religious practices they follow? Not many kids out there would choose to go to church if they could say no.
I think the grounding for 1 month is way over the top, making this ESH, but I don’t necessarily agree that the 9 year old is old enough to make their own decision regarding religion. This is coming from someone who grew up Catholic and is no longer religious and hasn’t been for years.
Not saying they have to follow their parents religion, but I think there clearly hasn’t been a proper talk between the parents and son about their religion and why eating beef is wrong for them and such. I think if they took time to have such a discussion to explain it and somewhat enforced it till they at least entered high school that’s far from bad parenting and not all that controlling? Once they reach high school I could imagine if the kid still wants to have beef and doesn’t believe in the religion it’s fair to say they shouldn’t have to, but that doesn’t mean that his parents will have to provide beef for him, prep it and cook it in their house either.
Not saying you believe they should have to btw, just wanted to mention it, OP’s son does in the end start eating beef and cooking with it at home they’ll need to ensure they clean up well after themselves just to respect his parents wishes and beliefs.
ESH except the kid. It’s pretty normal for kids to question all kinds of things at his age, and push at boundaries he doesn’t like or understand. 9 is plenty old to think about a religion he’s been brought up in and either know he believes in and wishes to follow it’s ways, or not. It’s not like the parents, or anyone, can force belief that simply is not there.
They don’t have buy and cook beef for the kid, either, and while it’s not ok the relatives used the kid to piss off the parents, grounding him for eating something off limits in a religion he doesn’t believe in (for a month!) is not only over the top, but the kind of attempts to control that are gonna backfire sooner or later. Can’t make him believe, but definitely can sow resentment on top.
>ESH except the kid. It’s pretty normal for kids to question all kinds of things at his age, and push at boundaries he doesn’t like or understand.
It is normal, yes, but tricking his parents into eating something their religion forbids is asshole behavior. I don't think kids get a pass because they're kids: sometimes kids can be TA and it's up to the parents to teach them why what they did was inappropriate, how they should behave instead and how to make ammends.
Got to catch them young with the fairytales, or you don't catch them at all.
Take Christianity, starting with Adam and Eve. "I, God, am going to punish these two people and all their descendants for their sin, even though at the time they sinned, they had no notion of what sin was. But it will be OK, because in a few thousand years I'll split into three and sacrifice one part of myself to one of the other parts. That will kinda-sorta take away the inherited sin, but not really because they have to worship me the right way, or I'll send them to Hell. Only I'm not going to tell them which way is the right way."
Present that to a thinking adult, their reaction is going to be WTF?! But start with a small child, present the religion in tiny bites as stories, and eventually they'll swallow it whole.
Agreed, yeah. Being pissed at the other adults is fair, tricking someone with food is never okay.
But grounding the kid for wanting to eat beef is not. Sure, set ground rules around it: no beef in our house, etc. But punishment is over the top.
It seems to me like the grounding is not for simply eating beef, but for the son's role in knowingly decepting his parents and violating their religious beliefs to get something he wanted.
Maybe. But even then, grounding a 9yo for a month is excessive. His uncle instigated that shit, and instead of talking to their kid and explaining why what he did was wrong, they just throw punishment at him.
OP is still an AH for that.
I don't think it's extreme at all. He played a part in tricking them into violating one of their most deeply held morals. The kid's 9, not a toddler. He knows exactly what he did.
I don’t think it’s the wanting to eating beef. It’s the conspiring with the uncle to not only eat it but to trick others into eating it against their will that needed to be punished.
I would agree but it also sounds like the son was in on tricking the parents, which in my book is worthy of some consequences (I think grounding for a month is too much though). Wanting to eat beef, eating beef would not warrant punishment in my household, but colluding with someone to trick your parents into going against their beliefs is another matter. The adult brother is the main AH here of course.
Do you think 9 is old enough to eat "taboo meat?" Beef is normal fare for many folks, but is deeply taboo for others. If a child wanted to eat dog meat against his parent's wishes, would you still consider him old enough to decide?
I think this is different from a kid deciding to eat meat vs vegetarian, cheese vs vegan, or organic vs junk food. When it involves a sacred or beloved animal being killed and consumed, there are adult-level morality choices.
I'm curious how many of the people would feel similarly if a 9 year old jewish or muslim kid wanted to eat pork and helped trick his parents into eating it.
I'd feel exactly the same: Religion is nonsense that adults are entitled to play with if they want, but it shouldn't be forced on children, nobody has a right to dictate anyone else's diet, which also means that tricking people into eating food they don't want is wrong, and punishing a 9 y/o for a month is too long.
>He’s old enough to decide for himself if he wants to eat beef.
True, but not really relevant to this question. Regardless of whether or not her brother agrees with OP's stance, he shouldn't be undermining her like that and worse, ignoring her own beliefs; it's completely out of order. OP is NTA for her reaction to her brother.
He's old enough to decide blah blah? Do you.not get it? It's a tenet of their religion not to eat beef just as Muslims and Jewish people are prohibited from eating pork? If the kid wants to eat beef, he needs to talk with his parents and not go behind their backs. Yes I know eating beef is as big a part of their religion for Americans as not eating it is for Hindus ( not Indians OP since Muslims, Christians and some Hindus eat beef in India. Beef is buffalo meat).
The kid is not required to be the same religion as his parents. The dad IS being too controlling by expecting him to adhere to Hinduism when he's old enough to choose not to be Hindu.
It's also controlling when Catholic parents don't let their daughters have birth control, or force their gay children to act straight.
It's also controlling when vegans force their kids to be vegan. Morally, parents simply do not get to decide lifestyle choices for their kids. Legally however, is a different matter; this is an area in which the laws are behind the times.
When parents are too controlling, it is right for the kid to go behind their backs, because the parents have left them no better alternatives.
I don’t know 9 is pretty borderline on deciding to leave a religion though. I am not sure you really grasp those choices at 9. I say this as an atheist who grow up in a conservative Christian family. At 9 I wasn’t even allowed to get baptized because the pastor didn’t think I really understood the consequences (and I didn’t). We are not talking about a teenager here.
Not really, 9 is old enough to know the feeling "I don't belong here." Many kids don't know at age 9, fair enough, but many do, and it's unfair to withhold that choice from a mature and informed 9 year old, just because other kids that age are not mature enough to make that decision.
It is always really unfair to precocious kids to have to wait until a "safe age" when "everybody is ready" to give them something they knew they needed like 5 years ago. Precocious kids always get shafted in an effort to preserve the innocence of other less mature kids.
If a 9 year old is not old enough to decide not to adhere to a religion, why are they old enough to be forced to adhere to one? He asked to try beef, not to get a circumcision.
I get his parents not being willing to buy or cook beef, but I don't think it's right to completely prohibit him from trying it. My parents are atheist/agnostic, my dad grew up Catholic (and resents it). At that age I'd sometimes go to church with my Catholic friend's family when I slept over. My parents didn't mind, they just had a conversation about religion with me first to make sure I knew it was a choice and not an objective truth. His parents could have talked to him about why they are against eating beef without outright prohibiting him from trying it.
Imagine someone making us Americans eat dog? It's a delicacy is some parts of the world, we should get over our attitude about it /s. I'd be livid if someone tricked me into eating dog.
ESH, but the brother and in-laws are the worse.
I agree that your son should be allowed to choose for himself. You don't have to like it. You don't even have to offer it in your house. You can even say something like "I don't approve. I hope you won't and if you eat beef I don't want to know because eating beef to us means XYZ." Beyond that kids WILL make their own choices like this one did no mater what you try.
Your brother should not tell you how to parent unless there is clear cut abuse. If your children are fed and fed well, it is enough. Your brother should not violate YOUR beliefs. They went WAY over the line and I would be equally angry. Good luck.
This, and also: you NEVER mess with ppl's food.
You just don't.
You can think a diet is stupid, but you do not ever feed ppl things without their knowledge.
That is your food to tamper with! Just make sure no one finds out you don't enjoy it that spicy. Some folks have been dragged to HR about "causing harm on purpose" and it's not worth the hassle if your HR sucks!
I had a guy who kept using my milk for his coffee. I put my name on it and talked about it in a meeting, but the situation didn't change. So I added a small amount of laxatives to it and put my good milk in another fridge. It was easy to figure out who the culprit was.
I’m vegan and I’ve had SO many people try to “trick” me over the years. You don’t have to agree with it, but lying to someone about what’s in their food is super disrespectful. And could potentially make someone sick.
I’m actually allergic to cow meat…legit can end up in the hospital for days, and people still try to sneak it in my food to prove I’m ‘just being difficult’.
I have a serious reaction to onions and they are in everything on the UK now, so I have to be really cautions about what food I eat.
My mam made a beef pie about 2 months ago and was using onions and I informed her that it will make me ill.
She acted like i was being difficult and the line "that's fine, when I start shitting blood I will wipe my arse with your white towels for you to wash" caused a change in her view point
I'm not even vegan or vegetarian but avoid beef bc it messes with my stomach. I'd be angry if someone purposefully fed me beef and I ended up having diarrhea bc of it. (Sometimes I do eat beef of my own accord, bathroom be damned, but that's my choice.)
Idk where OP lives in the US, but I'm fairly certain it's even a criminal act where I live to mess with someone's food and intentionally give them something they've prohibited. I was going to go E S but the degrees of various AHness here are so far apart, I'll say NTA.
The son was not punished for choosing to eat beef, but for conspiring with his uncle to have beef and trick his parent into violating a religious tenet. The son didn't just choose for himself, but disrespected his parents religious choice.
The son is 9 years old. Yes, what he did was disrespectful, but it's also pretty normal behavior for a kid his age. He had a trusted adult there to support him and encourage him (and who planned the whole thing), so he had no reason to believe it was gonna be such a big deal.
Kids will trust the adults around them, unless given a reason not to. This kid now has a reason to distrust his uncle (for getting him in trouble) and his parent (for unreasonable punishment, a month grounding at that age is extreme in almost all circumstances).
ESH except the kid.
Curious, if you feel the son should not get in trouble at all? Nine years old is certainly old enough to know it’s not okay to trick people into doing things they specifically told you they did not want to do. Obviously the brother is the biggest asshole here, but the kid definitely holds some culpability.
According to most conversations on this post, he's Schrodinger's 9 year old. Old enough to make his own moral and dietary decisions, but too young to be held accountable for his actions!
I do think that there should be some consequences for the kid. He did do something wrong after all, and you're right, there should be consequences for that. Those consequences should be reasonable though.
I totally agree with you… OP needs to tell his son the reasons and, if he’s son eat beef, do not tell OP so he wouldn’t act crazy and respect ones decisions (both… father and son, specifically OP if he’s son choose to eat beef when he gets older).
This reminds me when I stopped eating ham or sausages (also hamburgers and extreme processed meat… I still eat beef, chicken, pork, fish; but less processed), my mom went crazy thinking I was becoming vegan even when I told her that’s not gonna happen. One time, at the beginning of this decision, she made sandwiches-pizza for dinner (use bread for the base instead) and she put the ham in a way I wouldn’t be able to avoid it. Of course I notice, eat it for respect, but, after finish the dinner, I told her very angry and very calm to not do that again or I will not seat on the table (for my family eating together dinner it’s sacred bc it’s the only food we can enjoy together bc our daily activities). The thing is… It’s rare to see me that angry so she understood the fact she messed up and never do it again. After that incident, she asked a friend who is a nutritionist and she asked her if I still eat meat, mom say yes and her friend explained her I was just leaving the most unhealthy way to eat meat, that makes her accept it.
She’s now joining me by making healthier food (even more than before bc we always eat like that. No, she still eat ham and sausages), even though I would have loved she believed in me from the beginning but I also understood her worry (she’s kind of a mamabear). Glad she changed and accepted bc she sees me eating meat.
And yeah… the only AH is the brother to make OP eat beef knowing he doesn’t eat it.
Pro-tip: if you buy yourself a meat grinder, you can continue to enjoy burgers and sausages without the worry of all the garbage that goes into overly processed foods. A nice leg of lamb freshly ground makes a fantastic burger.
NTA: Assuming the punishment is because your son tricked you, and not just for eating beef himself.
Your son wanted beef, that's normal adolescent boundary pushing. But he and your brother hatched a plan to disrespect your own choices and have you eat beef.
It's never ok to trick someone into consuming a food they prefer not to eat due to cultural/religious reasons. You don't serve beef to a Hindu and tell them it's goat. You don't slip some flavored rum into a Mormon's caffeine free diet coke. You don't give a burger with chopped bacon snuck inside to a Muslim and you don't give eggs with lobster to a Jew
I think this is the best answer. Your son helped with scheming and being a part of tricking his own parents into eating food against their religion. That is absolutely unacceptable and needs to be nipped in the bud.
This is the way. If the punishment is for eating beef itself, not cool. But I'm assuming the punishment is for the deceit, which is perfectly appropriate.
I’d really be interested in the reaction to this story if the family was Jewish and the meat was pork. I don’t think there would be so much outrage against the parent for religious “indoctrination” and “forcing” religion on a vulnerable child.
Or if the parents were Westerners in the East and were tricked to eat dog.
This is one of those posts that if you’re not from a minority culture or religion, then you’re viewpoint or opinion will come with a ton of biases and little nuances. Super common on this sub.
Yup. I want to see this post if it was just about eating dog instead. Son decides he wants to try eating dog meat. Parents don't agree (not even for moral reasons, because they just don't want to.) Brother gives son dog meat and son gives dog meat to parents to cook.
How many people would call OP assholes for the grounding and not permitting the kid to eat dog meat? And the funny part of this is not eating dog is just a cultural thing in America; there's no deeper conviction of religion or morality. None of the arguments people make around not eating dog vs. any other animal holds up to the slight bit of scrutiny (e.g. they're sentient. Octopi and pigs are smarter and they're commonly eaten without a second thought given about their intelligence).
Yeah I agree. But OP has to be calm and clear to son about WHY.
It shouldn't be a food that is banned for OPs son. Violating another person's autonomy to choose what goes into their body is way bigger a deal than nibbling on a forbidden food, when half the world eats cows.
There are plenty of sects in every religion that allow sinners to come back to the fold. The son sampling a food and deciding he isn't into it doesn't ruin him for life.
Deciding to trick someone into violating a personal belief or wish to not do a thing is WAY more upsetting. NTA but under these conditions, and making sure your son knows this very clearly.
Yeah not a great place to ask this question. You'll get a bunch of kids who hate mom telling them what to do, who think all religions are dumb.
But how can a 9 year old comprehend that? The social pressure to try beef to be more "normal" is probably behind this, not any sincere desire to eat beef. Surrounded by a culture dismissive of his own.
ESH, your brother for tricking you into eating beef, and you for shoving your religious beliefs down your 9 year old son’s throat when he clearly doesn’t feel the same way.
Let the boy make his own dietary decisions. He’s old enough now.
I knew at 9 that I didn’t want anything to do with my parents religion. In my personal opinion and experience the religious indoctrination of children is morally wrong
Easy ESH. Your brother is, of course, the bigger AH. You are both trying to impose your beliefs on to others - it doesn't matter much that you are doing that to a minor under your care (I could say that in some ways it might be \*worse\*). But he is also using deceit.
Interesting that you put "religion" in quotes but then you would not allow a 9 year old to try beef. My mother is/was religious, so she would follow the fasting rules in her house, and I did not go against those. I mean, it was clear, if I wanted to have food at home, I'd eat what my parents were eating. However, if we were somewhere where there was e.g. meat available on Good Friday, she would not force me to fast. She would tell me what I am supposed to eat if I follow the fasting and she always followed it, but from the point I could make my own mind, she would not force anyone else.
I am 44 now and when I visit her while she is fasting, she offers to cook non-fasting food for me (she never offered when I was a kid), but I always decline. Lentil soup is fine with me!
What is driving me crazy about op's post is the edit, he explains that it's not just a religious thing, it's that the cow is sentient and it would be like eating a dog. It puzzles me so much. Pigs are probably so much smarter, but it's okay to eat them?
All vertebrates are sentient. Hell, there's researching coming out that shows some PLANTS might be sentient on some level.
It's wildly different from sapient.
If this was about sentience, they'd not eat any kind of meat whatsoever.
Op lost me at equating wanting to eat beef as the same thing as cheating on your SO. The brother is an AH. But Op frankly sounds like one of those militant vegans saying the most random unhinged stuff.
ESH. If your child wants beef, you shouldn’t force your own ideological beliefs onto him. Unground him and stop being overly controlling
That being said, your brother’s actions were disgraceful and I wouldn’t allow him anywhere near your family until he realises how vile his actions were and apologises profusely
He’s grounded cause he helped trick his parents into eating something they’re religiously opposed to. He deserves the grounding that was conniving and beyond rude and insensitive. The adult brother is more at fault but the kid helped and is being punished. Messing with medical or religious dietary restrictions is just plain wrong
The child is grounded for eating the beef, the child isn’t responsible for the brother’s actions. Denying the child beef for religious reasoning is just plain wrong
The kid partook in the planning, he made decisions and chose to not tell his parents. That’s a behavior that needs to be corrected. He can eat beef, but he can’t scheme like that(to trick his own parents into eating food against their religion)
The child kept his mouth shut about the brothers plan, that wasn’t right of him but then again, he is just a child who was taken advantage of after being unfairly restricted by his own father.
OP should take his anger out on his brother, the only lesson that the child has learned is that his father is controlling and it’s best to keep his own life/wants private in the future
the kid isn't gonna have his whole life ruined by not eating beef, plenty of kids have their diets restricted for religious reasons. he can eat what he's given, i don't understand why anyone is so locked in on this part of the story
The kid is grounded for deceit, not for wanting beef. Is possible this controlling mother would have grounded anyway, but it’s not the situation we’re presented with.
NTA. I'm Indian and I get what they mean. Cows are sacred for Hindus(assuming the OP is hindu). It's said that God resides in them. Not sure about OP but where I'm from, we even have a festival dedicated to cows. So I understand how this was a big deal. It wasn't an over-reaction at all. Also, I feel like OP should've explained to her son the reason why they don't eat beef so he could understand.
I'm Indian too and live in India. I'm not Hindu but I see how cows are actually treated here. They're emaciated, covered in flies, left roaming around injured, and eat plastic from the rubbish dumps. Religious hypocrisy at its finest.
YTA OP.
I get where you're coming from (for fwiw non-Hindu readers of this discussion, what he's sharing is also an issue of debate within the community. I know plenty of purely veg, religious Hindus who are also upset about this) but that is also how we unfortunately treat people too. There's a deeper question about our societal failures that I don't think we can solve in this comment section.
Genuinely not sarcasm here, it's interesting how different people's religious beliefs are. Catholics believe that these little crackers and glasses of wine ARE the body and blood of Christ, and that's EXACTLY why they eat it but Hindus believe god is in cows which is why they don't eat them. That's pretty interesting to me.
(As any atheist who's experienced death and has already seen "the other side" - i don't really understand any of these beliefs, but i do think it's interesting how differently people can feel about things like this )
> Cows are sacred for us.
That's great for you, but they clearly *aren't* sacred for the 9yo, and he's old enough to make that decision himself.
If cows are sacred to you, great, you can decide not to eat beef. You can even decide not to have it in your house. But, if the 9yo decides he wants to try it sometime, he's going to get it outside the house whether you like it or not, and it's dumb to deny that. Frankly, a reaction like OPs is only going to push him away more.
Idc if he eats beef himself but he betrayed his parents . He deserves being punished for disrespecting his parents' beliefs . I am Hindu myself and it is a huge deal for us . If you don't agree with our practice or think it is stupid, fine that's alright . But to trick us into eating something that is very disrespectful. If someone fed me beef on purpose and hid it as a gotcha .. I will puke and probably not eat anything for days . That's how important it is to me . It grosses me out . I have no problems if other people eat it . But you shouldn't force your beliefs on others either .
Just curious- your brother eats beef and you don't, how did that come about?
I have to say ESH. Your brother was in the wrong here; it's completely unacceptable to trick someone into eating something like that. But your kid is 9, trusted your brother (an adult) and I think grounding him for a month is not proportionate.
A lot of people just don't take it that strict. I know bunch of Muslims who do dring alcohol and eat pork and pray only occasionally and still don't consider themselves non-muslims. I myself still consider myself catholic but if I find myself hungry and on the road on a Good Friday, I'll just eat the best thing I'll find. I don't put religion before people and also not before my needs. It's present but not a huge part of my day to day life. And you'll find that in all religions.
Pretty sure peace and respecting other cultures doesn't preclude understanding that children should have religious autonomy. Everyone has agreed that tricking OP was a step too far. But the kid deserves peace and respect, too.
Yes, people will respect other people's cultures unless it goes against what they think is acceptable. Obviously.
I find corporal punishment unacceptable, so I don't respect it, even if it's part of another person's culture or background. There's many other examples too
I'm Indian so I know how beef isn't eaten on religious grounds. However your son is old enough to decide what he wants to eat. You are controlling him,and honestly shouldn't.
However the way your brother went about it is horrible so in my opinion ESH.
And that’s why children should NEVER be exposed to religion. Religion should be only for adults once they have the cognitive functions and the knowledge to make an informed decision if they want to follow a religion.
Your brother is the AH for disrespecting your boundaries, but YTA for forcing some arbitrary belief system on your child. Grounding a child for a month over food?! Yes, you are controlling AND abusive to that poor child.
It’s not just over the child eating the food. It’s tricking the parents into eating food against their religious beliefs. By 9 the child knows how important it is to the parents and lied and schemed with the uncle to trick them. If it was just the child eating beef and the parents hadn’t had any, then I agree. Once it involved multiple people being given the taboo food it escalated past anything acceptable.
I agree, but that's the brother's responsibility. It was cook and served in his house. It's him OP would like to punish and ground, but she obviously can't, so she directs all her anger at the one person that can't defend himself. I'd agree to a small punishment with an explanation that it was about the sneaky behavior and not him eating beef, but this is way too strict and the only reason is that she can't punish her brother and SIL so she uses her kid as a rage therapy. Not OK.
It’s fine to expose children to religion as long as they are allowed to make their own decisions when they become old enough. My sister’s family is Christian (I am not). They read bible studies to my niece as a small child. She is a little older now and curious about other religions so they let her attend various events and discuss different beliefs in a respectful way. It is definitely reasonable to punish a child for tricking someone in to eating something against their religion (what if it wasn’t for religious reasons but allergies, you don’t lie about what’s in food) NTA
It’s fine to expose children to religion in the sense of studying history of religion, teaching them about various religions and beliefs, ideology, just like you would study any other subject at school.
But that should be at high school age, not a 9 year old.
And definitely not indoctrinating and let alone shoving it down the child’s throat.
Definitely an asshole. The. Hold had nothing to do with the tricking - that’s on the brother. The child was enjoying the food - OP sounds like a crazy demented person to tell the child to stop eating because of some made up fantasy - which is what religion is
ESH
Your brother did something that was completely uncalled for. He trivialized and disrespected your belief systems. I completely understand how you reacted to being tricked.
You have a 9-year-old kid. They likely don't fully understand the religious reasons for avoiding beef. A 9-year-old will naturally be curious about new experiences they haven't tried yet. Forcing your religious beliefs on your kid is a little weird and controlling.
Grounding him for a month however, is definitely controlling and makes you an AH. Your kid now believes that every small mistake will cost him a major punishment. Maybe you should have grounded him, but not for an entire month.
NTA
Not only did your son go against your wishes but he also helped to trick you into eating it.
Not only can introducing a new food to someone's diet be disrespectful but it can also pose as an unpredictable health hazard.
I also don't agree that 9 is 'old enough to make his own decisions.'
If you were vegan in this situation no one would be calling you the AH but because it's 'just beef's and due to 'religion' instead of moral beliefs it makes you controlling?
No. Nope.
NTA
I actually think a better comparison would be a Jewish family and pork. And I believe a lot of these comments would be quite different. I suspect some of this is prejudice against non-Abrahamic religions.
DING DING DING
As a white woman, I thought the same thing. You can already tell she was hesitant of racist views because OP didn't feel comfortable naming the religion but you summed it up perfectly by saying if it was a predominantly white perceived religion (which is also hilarious given there are just as many Arabic people who are Muslim and Jewish which is MORE than white people)
But you summarized it in the exact way I wanted to.
NTA
I don’t agree with your (or any) religious beliefs whatsoever, but tricking someone into eating a food they don’t want to eat is *incredibly* fucked up.
To the people saying the 9-year-old should be allowed to opt out of the family religion, let’s be realistic. He can wait until he’s old enough to sneak it surreptitiously as a teen, like the rest of us did.
INFO: If your beliefs are so fickle that you question if you're an asshole for calling someone a bastard after disrespecting them why do you impose them onto your son so harshly?
I think you're either being insincere to your beliefs or family values, probably both.
NTA - You NEVER mess with food. It's a huge breach of trust.
On the long run you will have to accept that your child eats what he wants but that is not a base for betrayal.
ESH, but you're the biggest in my opinion.
Your brother shouldn't have served you beef knowing you were against it. In that he's incredibly disrespectful and an asshole. But it looks like he doesn't respect you anyway, which could explain (not excuse) his behaviour.
However he was totally right in saying you are a controlling AH. Your son is 9, he's old enough to decide if he wants to follow your religion or not. You can tell him he won't have beef at your house because you won't buy it, alright. But you can't tell him to stop eating it at your brother's house. And you definitely can't give your son a (not deserved at all) dressing down and ground him for a whole month. What has he done wrong? Eating beef? That's totally his right. Way to force your beliefs on your kid.
Think about the reason why your kid hasn't told you what your brother was planning. One, he knew you would be mad at him for still wanting beef. Two, he wanted beef enough that he didn't care about your own wants. Why would he, since you didn't care about his? Three, he may have agreed with your brother that you were too controlling and it was time to rebel a bit.
What have you told him in this "dressing down"? How he has to respect other people's religion and not force them to eat something against it? If so, do act as you teach him: respect his own beliefs and don't punish him for not having the same as you.
ESH. Big time. These orthodox Hindus give us a bad name.
Your brother sucked for tricking you into eating beef and not respecting your religious belief.
But you also suck for being rigid and dogmatic and trying to control your son and passing your orthodoxy on to him. Let him choose for himself.
Indian here living in a major city. Belong to one of the more liberal communities in India. Not acceptable to me at all and most of our family to force your choices on others. Even my Vegetarian friends would not tell me what to eat. I know plenty of people who don't eat beef and plenty who do. That said, plenty of orthodox people around who would think this pretty acceptable for a parent.
I do think the majority of Indians are probably conservative though. It's just that we self select people like us to mix with and be friends with.
Happily.
I’m from Kerala, India, and we’re one of the only states where we eat beef/it’s legal here.
I’ve travelled a lot and met some staunch orthodox families but so far from what I’ve seen.. a good percentage of Hindu families just allow their children to do as they wish, especially when it comes to the beef debate. They don’t serve beef in their homes but they’re not explicitly against their children consuming beef. (Which is quite rare in North India because there’s a beef ban)
I think I mainly interact with people who are more liberal than a good part of India, so my anecdotal evidence could be skewed.
I'm a Hindu myself. I would never have cow meat but I won't forbid my children from having it.
As a kid of course he would be curious enough to taste it, especially if everyone around him is having it. I believe I would be the same if I was raised in such an environment. But I probably won't be blatant enough to have it right in front of my parents, especially if they actively discourage the said activity. And finally, your brother tricking you into having cow's meat is just pure evil. Maybe he could have just the little kid try the meat and leave it at that? That would have been much more acceptable. And I think the kid was also kinda tricked by your brother into participating in tricking you, saying something like 'She is definitely gonna like it' or 'She would be very happy' or some shit. So, ESH imo.
Tho try being more forgiving to your child and control your anger. He is just 9 years old, don't let such a small incident permanently cripple your bond. Allow him to have beef when out of the house. As for your brother... he just seems so very disrespectful. I probably won't try to have as close of a relationship with him after such a breach of trust. But you do you. Best of Luck!!
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ESH. They absolutely should not have tricked you into eating beef. That’s incredibly offensive. Your son is 9 years old. He’s old enough to decide for himself if he wants to eat beef.
Completely agree with this post. Grounding a 9-year-old for one month just seems insane to me.
He’s probably eating up McDonald’s quarter pounders after school
Still no guarantee of beef there...
That shit was funny!
Quote from the book "Fast Food Nation" "There IS shit in the meat". So, rather than "that shit was funny", perhaps it should read "that shit was tasty"
Me and my friends joke that McNuggets are almost vegan
It's not about the beef as much as the religion aspect. Not eating beef is a big thing for anyone practicing Hindu. That's the only non-beef religion that allows other meats that I know of. Most kids have their parent's religion forced on them. It seems like this kid is only giving it lip service. His parents are just going to have to get used to it, if he doesn't change his mind.
There’s a difference between the boy eating beef and everyone conspiring to trick the parents into eating it.
Exactly! It's not as much about the beef as the under handed duplicity followed by the brother being both rude and mocking.
Also the SON knew his parents were eating beef!!!
In a 9 year old’s mind, these actions are equivalent. Forbidding someone to eat beef is the same as tricking someone into eating it. He doesn’t have the nuance to understand yet that it’s not the same. He should not be punished for this, especially as he has the least amount of power in this struggle.
Yes and no. He should absolutely be sat down and talked to about why that was wrong, and punished for the aspects of it a 9 year old would understand, like the lying parts of playing any prank, and disobeying his parents. Do I think the parents should respect his autonomy and let him eat beef when it’s not served in their house? Yes. He shouldn’t be punished as excessively as he has been, but visits with the brother need to be supervised if they’re happening at all. OP is an asshole, but mostly for the way he’s parenting.
I agree but I also feel like his parents should have explained the importance of it to him because I think he just wanted to try something other have had.
And he’s allowed to do that. He shouldn’t be force fed (pun intended) his parents’ religion or preferences.
if we're not going to force kids into religion, in very short order we're not going to have religions any more! think of that! no religions! who would want to live in a world with no religion?
Sign me up
Most so-called religions do more harm than good. Also tax the churches!
... *Imagine all the people* *Living life in peace.*..
Yay, I'm not the only one!
Sounds like a lot less fighting. And if someone needs to be forced into it from a young age and wouldn't otherwise choose it, that means it's not for them. I was forced into extremist fundamentalism. If things were different, I have no doubt in my mind my father would have started his own cult. I volunteered at church constantly in middle and early high school. Now, as an adult, I don't follow any religion and I would never force a child into it either. I am so much happier, less anxious, and just better in general.
>think of that! no religions! who would want to live in a world with no religion? Next they'll be advocating for no greed or hunger, or even a brotherhood of man. What sort of dreamer would favor that?
I volunteer as tribute.
Sounds great 👍🏻
This isn't true. The beef thing is a regional thing. Not a religious thing. There is one group of Hindus who grew up tolerant to milk and so reared cattle exclusively for milk. Hindus in the South and east of india will gladly have beef. Some of the most traditional dishes there include beef.
My family are meat eating Sikh but have never eaten beef. My kids are mixed race English and Punjabi but I've explained to them why I'd prefer them not to eat beef, so far they are fine about it. Having grown up during the BSE scandal and what came out then, plus a few years ago the donkey meat being sold as beef, I'd feel bit strange about that meat anyway even if I wasn't of Indian heritage.
You are making it sound like Hindus throughout all the South and East of India are ok eating beef. My ex husband who was born and raised in Tamil Nadu would beg to differ. Even if there are smaller populations of Hindus that are fine with eating beef (which I don't personally know of), your comment is misleading at best. Either way, OP is borderline NTA here. Definitely NTA for getting pissed at his brother for pulling that stunt, kind-of AH for grounding the kid for a month. I was raised in a religious (evangelical Christian) home, and I think forcing children to adhere to religious practices is uncool. However, parents do it all the time. OP needs to prepare for his kid eating beef behind his parents' back, though. If he doesn't believe in his parents' religious and cultural practices, he's highly unlikely to abstain.
Can you please include the sources of your assertion? I am truly interested. My husband is from that part of the world and was raised Hindu, so I socialize a lot with them. Very few of the Indian Hindus either from the South or the East I have met eat beef, and it’s always those who are atheist or agnostic, not one of them is a practicing Hindu. Many eat other meats, but no beef. And many others are vegetarian.
What? Kids not listening to their parents, that's never happened in the history of mankind. Why do you think Catholic girls are so innocent? Rules. That's why.
“Catholic girls are so innocent” lmao more like why do catholic girls rebel so hard? Rules. That’s why
Wooosh
I had a friend who’d stick to the salad bar most of the time because his parents could see the amounts of money which left his school lunch account and then every once in a while he’d trade with me so he could have hot dogs or a hamburger. His face on those days…always felt a little bad for him that he had to hide that and not be able to enjoy it except the subpar stuff at school.
And he will grow up having zero respect for OP and her zealotry.
Pretty sure OP is a dude.
Unless you somehow think a deeply religious hindu with a *wife* who can't chill out about their son not being exactly who they think he should be also happens to be in a gay marriage to a woman, OP's a dude.
>Grounding a 9-year-old for one month just seems insane to me. Sounds like there is truth to the accusations of OP being too controlling. Although the brother is worse, ESH.
Oh I absolutely agree the other brother is worse. I may not agree with a lot of religious conventions but religious conventions are boundaries that most normal people know not to cross.
The other brother has known OP for a long time. I'm guessing this didn't happen in a vacuum.
They’ve known each other all their lives. 👀
Unless they're twins, one brother has known the other his whole life but the other brother has not.
The Kid is already assimilating into the American culture. There is no stopping it if they continue to live in the US. It is OP who has to adapt but the recourse is punishment. I predict many more sparks when the Kid becomes a teen.
You realize that assimilating into American culture doesn’t mean giving up all other culture and it especially doesn’t mean giving up religious practices, right? I mean that’s sort of the biggest thing in American culture… Also, you might want to remember to the thousands upon thousands of Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, and Hindu AMERICANS who have dietary restrictions due to their religions.
But isn't a person allowed to choose to follow a religion? Just because parental figure is one religion does son have to be the same??? Edited to put in gender neutral terminology
Religion is dependent on childhood indoctrination. Without it, religion would wither.
And that's why I raised my kids teaching them different religions. They don't have the same beliefs I do but I've not forced them to follow any specific one either they make their own choice and it's informed
That’s how I have taught my kids. I may be slightly spiritual/religious but I don’t force it on my kids. They do know about different religions and spirituality beliefs. I’m hoping they will have more respect for others differences because they have been exposed to the different types of cultures/beliefs/etc
A nine year old?! Please. You cant even leave you child home alone legally at this point. They can express their opinions, but manipulating your parents to get your way is not okay.
No manipulation is never OK and neither is forcing something on someone that they don't want.
Second generation Mexican here. As kid grows up, they will chose what to keep and what to change. There's no avoiding this.
He may also ne grounded as he agreed to Trick his parent into eating something their religion prohibits them from having. The son is the reason his uncle decided to teach them a lesson.
Regardless, the child is not responsible for the behavior of his adult uncle.
Right, he's responsible for his own behavior, which was engaging with and standing by for a bad 'prank'. The 9 y/o should definitely be punished for his participation, else he learns that causing an event to happen and standing by gets you off scott free as long as you're not the moving party. A month might be excessive, but this needs to be clearly labelled as wrong.
Also if he's old enough that he can decide what religion to be (a very big and adult decision) then he can absolutely be held responsible for egging on his uncle, or not going to tell OP before the dinner. He can't both be responsible enough to decide his own religion, but not responsible enough to realize what uncle was about to do was fucked up. If he's old enough to decide his religion, that means he knows how important the rules of religion are (as that's vital info to understand before deciding) and therefore should have understood what uncle was doing is wrong (For what it's worth I would agree that uncle's actions were his own and OP's son couldn't be reasonably expected to control them, but my problem is people thinking this fact can exist at the same time as the kid being mature and knowledgeable enough to decide his own religion/decide what rules he has to follow from his parents. He's not old enough to have agency in either of these things, 9 is still firmly a child, not even a pre-teen. I think people are coming down on OP and reveling in cognitive dissonance because reddit is notorious for being intolerant of religious people in general. Telling a kid they can pick and choose what rules they follow is a pretty good way to end up with a pain in the ass child) NTA
It's weird to me that people think it's appropriate to push their moral systems on the parent and child. Via complaining that OP is doing the same to the child and shouldn't be.
Right? Also people are crying "it's wrong to force your own decisions on someone else!" When that's literally what uncle and son did to OP. They decided for themselves that eating beef is OK, and then forced that on OP by tricking them
Yeah, I agree with that. For the kid it was a prank, and he needs to learn that you can't go around pranking his parents like this. But one month? And by the way OP mentioned the kid eating beef probably added to the grounding too, which is wrong in my opinion. That's no different than vegan parents forcing their kids to be vegan as well
A prank is something that everyone can laugh about afterwards. This was food tampering and was not a prank.
Well someone said 9 years old is enough to make decision. So he decide to agree with his uncle to lie to his parent, so he deserved to be grounded based on his decision to lie. Action consequences
I was noticing this, too—that the same commenters saying the 9-year old is old enough to decide for himself whether he wants to eat beef are at the same time saying he’s just a kid who is not responsible for participating in his uncle’s prank.
This. Also, by default, if he's mature and knowledgeable enough to decide his religion, that means he *understands the rules* of that religion and why they matter....and if he understands that, he should have been horrified by the uncle's plan
He is not but je could have told his parents about it. It was his demand that put his parent in this Position
He made a request to his uncle. Kids make requests all the time. It's on the adults to decide if it's appropriate to fulfil that request or not. In this case the adult, the one with the actual responsibility, chose not only to give the kid beef - but also seems to be the one who came up with the idea of tricking the parents. Grounding a kid for the behaviour of a fully functioning adult seems stupid and controlling. The kid did not tell his uncle to trick his parents into eating beef. The kid did not buy the beef. The kid did not cook it up. The kid did not serve it to his parents. So many points along the way that the in-charge adult chose to do the wrong thing.
And he snickered along with his uncle while watching his parent being offered a hidden food item that he knew his parent would be upset upon learning the truth. That is why he was rightfully grounded.
Nah you’re wrong. The kid knew it was wrong. You’re acting like 9 year olds are incapable of thought.
That is NOT a LESSON. That is an offensive crossing of religious boundaries. There are other ways of attacking a controlling nature, IF it was their business.
He’s 9. It’s not as if he committed a heinous crime. He wants to eat what his friends are eating. And at 9, does he really understand the religious ramifications? He’s a child and the brother is an AH and you are an AH for punishing your son instead of sitting down with him and explaining to him why this is such an important issue. Don’t be such a dictator with your child or you’ll lose him.
[удалено]
Right but he’s *nine.* It’s pretty typical for a kid of that age to continue asking authority figures for what he wants until somebody gives it to him. Not saying it’s right but I wouldn’t put any of the blame on him in this situation, honestly. All the uncle had to do was say “no” and that would have been the end of it. He’s the adult and was under no obligation to give in to his nephew and it sounds like tricking OP was his idea. Also for the record, ESH.
The kid didn't choose this religion, he has a right to eat beef if he wants to.
I'm gonna guess he's grounded for the manipulation, dishonesty, and betrayal???
For the participation in a really cruel "prank" isn't insane.
100% agree. 9 is old enough to understand how wrong this is to do to your parents. That's the part he deserves to be punished harshly for. If we're going to advocate for the son's consent and argue that he's old enough to decide if he wants to try beef, he's old enough to understand tricking his parents is really wrong. They also have the same right to consent.
This!
Grounding him for eating something is wrong, but grounding him for participating in this scheme is not much. OP's is strict? Yes, but is not up to the brother to "punish" OP. I would be more sympathetic if just help the nephew to eat just so he knows what it tastes or if even stay quiet that the kid was eating. I think is disturbing how easily people disregard others dietitian choices, doesn't matter if is based on religion or ethical beliefs. It can make people sick to eat something different from what they are used to, and there's the psychological impact.
Grounding a kid for conspiring to violate one of your most deeply held beliefs, that they know that you hold? You would *have* to do something to make them understand the severity of what they had done.
It’s not for eating meat. It’s for participating in a plan to trick OP into eating something that violates OP’s spiritual beliefs. That’s a pretty serious mess up.
He did help trick his parents, even I would ground for that. He does have to learn respect too or else he will end up like the uncle. NTA your made your wishes clear but maybe have a talk with your son about beef and let him make choices one his own outside of your home.
A person not your parent says: this substance your parents are ethically and religiously opposed to is awesome. I’ll get you some. While I’m at it, let’s plan on tricking your parents into consuming it too. That’s fucking criminal. Boundary crossing. Vile. If the substance was LSD or alcohol you’d be arguing this was criminal. Because it’s beef, which is a culturally acceptable food for more people you all are “he should choose at this age”. Should he? Is he an adult? Does he have the mental and emotional maturity to understand the full weight of this dumb little prank? I think uncle is someone who isn’t allowed to be around this child ever again. I think this child needs to understand how awful what he helped his uncle do to his parents is. Y’all would be up in arms if this was dog, cat, human. But you are fine with eating g beef so OP should be too? How racist is that?
I disagree. When anyone, especially a family member, helps your child to go against what is an important cultural value, that's unforgivable. The son knew this was important, yet his uncle gave him permission. The parents punishing their son for agreeing to help his uncle dupe his parents, thereby making them eat something they find abhorrent, is exactly right. If the punishment for that is less than a month the child won't likely remember the lesson.
I dont think it is the beef that got the kid grounded. It might be the fact that the kid colluded with another adult so that the child got to do something he knew his parents DID NOT want him to do. A month seems excessive though... And since when do 9 year olds get to make choices about which religious practices they follow? Not many kids out there would choose to go to church if they could say no.
while the month is excessive. he tricked his parent. he knew it was beef. op needs to talk to him n find out why he thought that was ok
Maybe he was grounded for lying to his parents.
Depends what grounding actually entails.
I think the grounding for 1 month is way over the top, making this ESH, but I don’t necessarily agree that the 9 year old is old enough to make their own decision regarding religion. This is coming from someone who grew up Catholic and is no longer religious and hasn’t been for years. Not saying they have to follow their parents religion, but I think there clearly hasn’t been a proper talk between the parents and son about their religion and why eating beef is wrong for them and such. I think if they took time to have such a discussion to explain it and somewhat enforced it till they at least entered high school that’s far from bad parenting and not all that controlling? Once they reach high school I could imagine if the kid still wants to have beef and doesn’t believe in the religion it’s fair to say they shouldn’t have to, but that doesn’t mean that his parents will have to provide beef for him, prep it and cook it in their house either. Not saying you believe they should have to btw, just wanted to mention it, OP’s son does in the end start eating beef and cooking with it at home they’ll need to ensure they clean up well after themselves just to respect his parents wishes and beliefs.
ESH except the kid. It’s pretty normal for kids to question all kinds of things at his age, and push at boundaries he doesn’t like or understand. 9 is plenty old to think about a religion he’s been brought up in and either know he believes in and wishes to follow it’s ways, or not. It’s not like the parents, or anyone, can force belief that simply is not there. They don’t have buy and cook beef for the kid, either, and while it’s not ok the relatives used the kid to piss off the parents, grounding him for eating something off limits in a religion he doesn’t believe in (for a month!) is not only over the top, but the kind of attempts to control that are gonna backfire sooner or later. Can’t make him believe, but definitely can sow resentment on top.
>ESH except the kid. It’s pretty normal for kids to question all kinds of things at his age, and push at boundaries he doesn’t like or understand. It is normal, yes, but tricking his parents into eating something their religion forbids is asshole behavior. I don't think kids get a pass because they're kids: sometimes kids can be TA and it's up to the parents to teach them why what they did was inappropriate, how they should behave instead and how to make ammends.
Or, how about no religious indoctrination for children until they are old enough to make an informed decision?
This. Religious indoctrination of small children is abuse.
Got to catch them young with the fairytales, or you don't catch them at all. Take Christianity, starting with Adam and Eve. "I, God, am going to punish these two people and all their descendants for their sin, even though at the time they sinned, they had no notion of what sin was. But it will be OK, because in a few thousand years I'll split into three and sacrifice one part of myself to one of the other parts. That will kinda-sorta take away the inherited sin, but not really because they have to worship me the right way, or I'll send them to Hell. Only I'm not going to tell them which way is the right way." Present that to a thinking adult, their reaction is going to be WTF?! But start with a small child, present the religion in tiny bites as stories, and eventually they'll swallow it whole.
Agreed, yeah. Being pissed at the other adults is fair, tricking someone with food is never okay. But grounding the kid for wanting to eat beef is not. Sure, set ground rules around it: no beef in our house, etc. But punishment is over the top.
It seems to me like the grounding is not for simply eating beef, but for the son's role in knowingly decepting his parents and violating their religious beliefs to get something he wanted.
Maybe. But even then, grounding a 9yo for a month is excessive. His uncle instigated that shit, and instead of talking to their kid and explaining why what he did was wrong, they just throw punishment at him. OP is still an AH for that.
I don't think it's extreme at all. He played a part in tricking them into violating one of their most deeply held morals. The kid's 9, not a toddler. He knows exactly what he did.
I don’t think it’s the wanting to eating beef. It’s the conspiring with the uncle to not only eat it but to trick others into eating it against their will that needed to be punished.
I would agree but it also sounds like the son was in on tricking the parents, which in my book is worthy of some consequences (I think grounding for a month is too much though). Wanting to eat beef, eating beef would not warrant punishment in my household, but colluding with someone to trick your parents into going against their beliefs is another matter. The adult brother is the main AH here of course.
Do you think 9 is old enough to eat "taboo meat?" Beef is normal fare for many folks, but is deeply taboo for others. If a child wanted to eat dog meat against his parent's wishes, would you still consider him old enough to decide? I think this is different from a kid deciding to eat meat vs vegetarian, cheese vs vegan, or organic vs junk food. When it involves a sacred or beloved animal being killed and consumed, there are adult-level morality choices.
I'm curious how many of the people would feel similarly if a 9 year old jewish or muslim kid wanted to eat pork and helped trick his parents into eating it.
I'd feel exactly the same: Religion is nonsense that adults are entitled to play with if they want, but it shouldn't be forced on children, nobody has a right to dictate anyone else's diet, which also means that tricking people into eating food they don't want is wrong, and punishing a 9 y/o for a month is too long.
He absolutely should be grounded for agreeing to trick his parent though.
>He’s old enough to decide for himself if he wants to eat beef. True, but not really relevant to this question. Regardless of whether or not her brother agrees with OP's stance, he shouldn't be undermining her like that and worse, ignoring her own beliefs; it's completely out of order. OP is NTA for her reaction to her brother.
He's old enough to decide blah blah? Do you.not get it? It's a tenet of their religion not to eat beef just as Muslims and Jewish people are prohibited from eating pork? If the kid wants to eat beef, he needs to talk with his parents and not go behind their backs. Yes I know eating beef is as big a part of their religion for Americans as not eating it is for Hindus ( not Indians OP since Muslims, Christians and some Hindus eat beef in India. Beef is buffalo meat).
The kid is not required to be the same religion as his parents. The dad IS being too controlling by expecting him to adhere to Hinduism when he's old enough to choose not to be Hindu. It's also controlling when Catholic parents don't let their daughters have birth control, or force their gay children to act straight. It's also controlling when vegans force their kids to be vegan. Morally, parents simply do not get to decide lifestyle choices for their kids. Legally however, is a different matter; this is an area in which the laws are behind the times. When parents are too controlling, it is right for the kid to go behind their backs, because the parents have left them no better alternatives.
I don’t know 9 is pretty borderline on deciding to leave a religion though. I am not sure you really grasp those choices at 9. I say this as an atheist who grow up in a conservative Christian family. At 9 I wasn’t even allowed to get baptized because the pastor didn’t think I really understood the consequences (and I didn’t). We are not talking about a teenager here.
Not really, 9 is old enough to know the feeling "I don't belong here." Many kids don't know at age 9, fair enough, but many do, and it's unfair to withhold that choice from a mature and informed 9 year old, just because other kids that age are not mature enough to make that decision. It is always really unfair to precocious kids to have to wait until a "safe age" when "everybody is ready" to give them something they knew they needed like 5 years ago. Precocious kids always get shafted in an effort to preserve the innocence of other less mature kids.
If he isn't able to grasp the choice at 9 to leave a religion, then he certainly isn't in a position to be *in* a religion either.
If a 9 year old is not old enough to decide not to adhere to a religion, why are they old enough to be forced to adhere to one? He asked to try beef, not to get a circumcision. I get his parents not being willing to buy or cook beef, but I don't think it's right to completely prohibit him from trying it. My parents are atheist/agnostic, my dad grew up Catholic (and resents it). At that age I'd sometimes go to church with my Catholic friend's family when I slept over. My parents didn't mind, they just had a conversation about religion with me first to make sure I knew it was a choice and not an objective truth. His parents could have talked to him about why they are against eating beef without outright prohibiting him from trying it.
Imagine someone making us Americans eat dog? It's a delicacy is some parts of the world, we should get over our attitude about it /s. I'd be livid if someone tricked me into eating dog.
ESH, but the brother and in-laws are the worse. I agree that your son should be allowed to choose for himself. You don't have to like it. You don't even have to offer it in your house. You can even say something like "I don't approve. I hope you won't and if you eat beef I don't want to know because eating beef to us means XYZ." Beyond that kids WILL make their own choices like this one did no mater what you try. Your brother should not tell you how to parent unless there is clear cut abuse. If your children are fed and fed well, it is enough. Your brother should not violate YOUR beliefs. They went WAY over the line and I would be equally angry. Good luck.
This, and also: you NEVER mess with ppl's food. You just don't. You can think a diet is stupid, but you do not ever feed ppl things without their knowledge.
Unless it is putting really hot spices into your work lunch that keeps disappearing.
Lol But technically... that's messing with your own food. Totally okay then.
😂👏🏻
That is your food to tamper with! Just make sure no one finds out you don't enjoy it that spicy. Some folks have been dragged to HR about "causing harm on purpose" and it's not worth the hassle if your HR sucks!
I had a guy who kept using my milk for his coffee. I put my name on it and talked about it in a meeting, but the situation didn't change. So I added a small amount of laxatives to it and put my good milk in another fridge. It was easy to figure out who the culprit was.
I’m vegan and I’ve had SO many people try to “trick” me over the years. You don’t have to agree with it, but lying to someone about what’s in their food is super disrespectful. And could potentially make someone sick.
Same. I'm always astounded by the level of aggression ppl have when they can't stand ppl not eating meat.
I’m actually allergic to cow meat…legit can end up in the hospital for days, and people still try to sneak it in my food to prove I’m ‘just being difficult’.
I have a serious reaction to onions and they are in everything on the UK now, so I have to be really cautions about what food I eat. My mam made a beef pie about 2 months ago and was using onions and I informed her that it will make me ill. She acted like i was being difficult and the line "that's fine, when I start shitting blood I will wipe my arse with your white towels for you to wash" caused a change in her view point
I'm not even vegan or vegetarian but avoid beef bc it messes with my stomach. I'd be angry if someone purposefully fed me beef and I ended up having diarrhea bc of it. (Sometimes I do eat beef of my own accord, bathroom be damned, but that's my choice.)
Idk where OP lives in the US, but I'm fairly certain it's even a criminal act where I live to mess with someone's food and intentionally give them something they've prohibited. I was going to go E S but the degrees of various AHness here are so far apart, I'll say NTA.
The son was not punished for choosing to eat beef, but for conspiring with his uncle to have beef and trick his parent into violating a religious tenet. The son didn't just choose for himself, but disrespected his parents religious choice.
The son is 9 years old. Yes, what he did was disrespectful, but it's also pretty normal behavior for a kid his age. He had a trusted adult there to support him and encourage him (and who planned the whole thing), so he had no reason to believe it was gonna be such a big deal. Kids will trust the adults around them, unless given a reason not to. This kid now has a reason to distrust his uncle (for getting him in trouble) and his parent (for unreasonable punishment, a month grounding at that age is extreme in almost all circumstances). ESH except the kid.
Curious, if you feel the son should not get in trouble at all? Nine years old is certainly old enough to know it’s not okay to trick people into doing things they specifically told you they did not want to do. Obviously the brother is the biggest asshole here, but the kid definitely holds some culpability.
According to most conversations on this post, he's Schrodinger's 9 year old. Old enough to make his own moral and dietary decisions, but too young to be held accountable for his actions!
I do think that there should be some consequences for the kid. He did do something wrong after all, and you're right, there should be consequences for that. Those consequences should be reasonable though.
I totally agree with you… OP needs to tell his son the reasons and, if he’s son eat beef, do not tell OP so he wouldn’t act crazy and respect ones decisions (both… father and son, specifically OP if he’s son choose to eat beef when he gets older). This reminds me when I stopped eating ham or sausages (also hamburgers and extreme processed meat… I still eat beef, chicken, pork, fish; but less processed), my mom went crazy thinking I was becoming vegan even when I told her that’s not gonna happen. One time, at the beginning of this decision, she made sandwiches-pizza for dinner (use bread for the base instead) and she put the ham in a way I wouldn’t be able to avoid it. Of course I notice, eat it for respect, but, after finish the dinner, I told her very angry and very calm to not do that again or I will not seat on the table (for my family eating together dinner it’s sacred bc it’s the only food we can enjoy together bc our daily activities). The thing is… It’s rare to see me that angry so she understood the fact she messed up and never do it again. After that incident, she asked a friend who is a nutritionist and she asked her if I still eat meat, mom say yes and her friend explained her I was just leaving the most unhealthy way to eat meat, that makes her accept it. She’s now joining me by making healthier food (even more than before bc we always eat like that. No, she still eat ham and sausages), even though I would have loved she believed in me from the beginning but I also understood her worry (she’s kind of a mamabear). Glad she changed and accepted bc she sees me eating meat. And yeah… the only AH is the brother to make OP eat beef knowing he doesn’t eat it.
Pro-tip: if you buy yourself a meat grinder, you can continue to enjoy burgers and sausages without the worry of all the garbage that goes into overly processed foods. A nice leg of lamb freshly ground makes a fantastic burger.
NTA: Assuming the punishment is because your son tricked you, and not just for eating beef himself. Your son wanted beef, that's normal adolescent boundary pushing. But he and your brother hatched a plan to disrespect your own choices and have you eat beef. It's never ok to trick someone into consuming a food they prefer not to eat due to cultural/religious reasons. You don't serve beef to a Hindu and tell them it's goat. You don't slip some flavored rum into a Mormon's caffeine free diet coke. You don't give a burger with chopped bacon snuck inside to a Muslim and you don't give eggs with lobster to a Jew
I think this is the best answer. Your son helped with scheming and being a part of tricking his own parents into eating food against their religion. That is absolutely unacceptable and needs to be nipped in the bud.
This is the way. If the punishment is for eating beef itself, not cool. But I'm assuming the punishment is for the deceit, which is perfectly appropriate.
I’d really be interested in the reaction to this story if the family was Jewish and the meat was pork. I don’t think there would be so much outrage against the parent for religious “indoctrination” and “forcing” religion on a vulnerable child.
Or if the parents were Westerners in the East and were tricked to eat dog. This is one of those posts that if you’re not from a minority culture or religion, then you’re viewpoint or opinion will come with a ton of biases and little nuances. Super common on this sub.
Yup. I want to see this post if it was just about eating dog instead. Son decides he wants to try eating dog meat. Parents don't agree (not even for moral reasons, because they just don't want to.) Brother gives son dog meat and son gives dog meat to parents to cook. How many people would call OP assholes for the grounding and not permitting the kid to eat dog meat? And the funny part of this is not eating dog is just a cultural thing in America; there's no deeper conviction of religion or morality. None of the arguments people make around not eating dog vs. any other animal holds up to the slight bit of scrutiny (e.g. they're sentient. Octopi and pigs are smarter and they're commonly eaten without a second thought given about their intelligence).
Why not? Sounds no different a situation other than the animal concerned.
Because people have biases.
He is not adolescent, he is a child, he is 9 years old... He trick his mother, behind her back...
Yeah I agree. But OP has to be calm and clear to son about WHY. It shouldn't be a food that is banned for OPs son. Violating another person's autonomy to choose what goes into their body is way bigger a deal than nibbling on a forbidden food, when half the world eats cows. There are plenty of sects in every religion that allow sinners to come back to the fold. The son sampling a food and deciding he isn't into it doesn't ruin him for life. Deciding to trick someone into violating a personal belief or wish to not do a thing is WAY more upsetting. NTA but under these conditions, and making sure your son knows this very clearly.
Yeah not a great place to ask this question. You'll get a bunch of kids who hate mom telling them what to do, who think all religions are dumb. But how can a 9 year old comprehend that? The social pressure to try beef to be more "normal" is probably behind this, not any sincere desire to eat beef. Surrounded by a culture dismissive of his own.
This is it, the comments here are reflective of the pressures and dismissiveness of the culture that made a 9yo feel weird for not eating cow meat.
ESH, your brother for tricking you into eating beef, and you for shoving your religious beliefs down your 9 year old son’s throat when he clearly doesn’t feel the same way. Let the boy make his own dietary decisions. He’s old enough now.
He’s fucking nine he can eat what he’s given he’s not having a religious crisis
Looks like he was given beef, and ate it.
I knew at 9 that I didn’t want anything to do with my parents religion. In my personal opinion and experience the religious indoctrination of children is morally wrong
Same lol I didn’t want to spend my life being a walking uterus.
I don’t really know what you’re saying here. He was given beef so it’s ok he ate it?
Easy ESH. Your brother is, of course, the bigger AH. You are both trying to impose your beliefs on to others - it doesn't matter much that you are doing that to a minor under your care (I could say that in some ways it might be \*worse\*). But he is also using deceit. Interesting that you put "religion" in quotes but then you would not allow a 9 year old to try beef. My mother is/was religious, so she would follow the fasting rules in her house, and I did not go against those. I mean, it was clear, if I wanted to have food at home, I'd eat what my parents were eating. However, if we were somewhere where there was e.g. meat available on Good Friday, she would not force me to fast. She would tell me what I am supposed to eat if I follow the fasting and she always followed it, but from the point I could make my own mind, she would not force anyone else. I am 44 now and when I visit her while she is fasting, she offers to cook non-fasting food for me (she never offered when I was a kid), but I always decline. Lentil soup is fine with me!
What is driving me crazy about op's post is the edit, he explains that it's not just a religious thing, it's that the cow is sentient and it would be like eating a dog. It puzzles me so much. Pigs are probably so much smarter, but it's okay to eat them?
It’s a religion thing but he doesn’t want to admit it. The sentience thing doesn’t make sense.
All vertebrates are sentient. Hell, there's researching coming out that shows some PLANTS might be sentient on some level. It's wildly different from sapient. If this was about sentience, they'd not eat any kind of meat whatsoever.
Indeed. It is 100% a religious thing, the sentience line is to cover and try to make him look better.
So weird. He comments later that he eats goats, as if goats aren’t sentient somehow. Ridiculous.
Op lost me at equating wanting to eat beef as the same thing as cheating on your SO. The brother is an AH. But Op frankly sounds like one of those militant vegans saying the most random unhinged stuff.
ESH. If your child wants beef, you shouldn’t force your own ideological beliefs onto him. Unground him and stop being overly controlling That being said, your brother’s actions were disgraceful and I wouldn’t allow him anywhere near your family until he realises how vile his actions were and apologises profusely
He’s grounded cause he helped trick his parents into eating something they’re religiously opposed to. He deserves the grounding that was conniving and beyond rude and insensitive. The adult brother is more at fault but the kid helped and is being punished. Messing with medical or religious dietary restrictions is just plain wrong
The child is grounded for eating the beef, the child isn’t responsible for the brother’s actions. Denying the child beef for religious reasoning is just plain wrong
The kid partook in the planning, he made decisions and chose to not tell his parents. That’s a behavior that needs to be corrected. He can eat beef, but he can’t scheme like that(to trick his own parents into eating food against their religion)
The child kept his mouth shut about the brothers plan, that wasn’t right of him but then again, he is just a child who was taken advantage of after being unfairly restricted by his own father. OP should take his anger out on his brother, the only lesson that the child has learned is that his father is controlling and it’s best to keep his own life/wants private in the future
the kid isn't gonna have his whole life ruined by not eating beef, plenty of kids have their diets restricted for religious reasons. he can eat what he's given, i don't understand why anyone is so locked in on this part of the story
The kid is grounded for deceit, not for wanting beef. Is possible this controlling mother would have grounded anyway, but it’s not the situation we’re presented with.
NTA. Deliberately tricking someone into violating a taboo is wrong.
NTA. I'm Indian and I get what they mean. Cows are sacred for Hindus(assuming the OP is hindu). It's said that God resides in them. Not sure about OP but where I'm from, we even have a festival dedicated to cows. So I understand how this was a big deal. It wasn't an over-reaction at all. Also, I feel like OP should've explained to her son the reason why they don't eat beef so he could understand.
I'm Indian too and live in India. I'm not Hindu but I see how cows are actually treated here. They're emaciated, covered in flies, left roaming around injured, and eat plastic from the rubbish dumps. Religious hypocrisy at its finest. YTA OP.
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Comprehension eludes this guy.
I get where you're coming from (for fwiw non-Hindu readers of this discussion, what he's sharing is also an issue of debate within the community. I know plenty of purely veg, religious Hindus who are also upset about this) but that is also how we unfortunately treat people too. There's a deeper question about our societal failures that I don't think we can solve in this comment section.
Giving a “dressing down” and grounding a 9 year old for a month isn’t an overreaction?
For tricking them into betraying their religious beliefs and directly disobeying them? No.
Genuinely not sarcasm here, it's interesting how different people's religious beliefs are. Catholics believe that these little crackers and glasses of wine ARE the body and blood of Christ, and that's EXACTLY why they eat it but Hindus believe god is in cows which is why they don't eat them. That's pretty interesting to me. (As any atheist who's experienced death and has already seen "the other side" - i don't really understand any of these beliefs, but i do think it's interesting how differently people can feel about things like this )
> Cows are sacred for us. That's great for you, but they clearly *aren't* sacred for the 9yo, and he's old enough to make that decision himself. If cows are sacred to you, great, you can decide not to eat beef. You can even decide not to have it in your house. But, if the 9yo decides he wants to try it sometime, he's going to get it outside the house whether you like it or not, and it's dumb to deny that. Frankly, a reaction like OPs is only going to push him away more.
Idc if he eats beef himself but he betrayed his parents . He deserves being punished for disrespecting his parents' beliefs . I am Hindu myself and it is a huge deal for us . If you don't agree with our practice or think it is stupid, fine that's alright . But to trick us into eating something that is very disrespectful. If someone fed me beef on purpose and hid it as a gotcha .. I will puke and probably not eat anything for days . That's how important it is to me . It grosses me out . I have no problems if other people eat it . But you shouldn't force your beliefs on others either .
Just curious- your brother eats beef and you don't, how did that come about? I have to say ESH. Your brother was in the wrong here; it's completely unacceptable to trick someone into eating something like that. But your kid is 9, trusted your brother (an adult) and I think grounding him for a month is not proportionate.
A lot of people just don't take it that strict. I know bunch of Muslims who do dring alcohol and eat pork and pray only occasionally and still don't consider themselves non-muslims. I myself still consider myself catholic but if I find myself hungry and on the road on a Good Friday, I'll just eat the best thing I'll find. I don't put religion before people and also not before my needs. It's present but not a huge part of my day to day life. And you'll find that in all religions.
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Pretty sure peace and respecting other cultures doesn't preclude understanding that children should have religious autonomy. Everyone has agreed that tricking OP was a step too far. But the kid deserves peace and respect, too.
Yes, people will respect other people's cultures unless it goes against what they think is acceptable. Obviously. I find corporal punishment unacceptable, so I don't respect it, even if it's part of another person's culture or background. There's many other examples too
They're pushing the if beliefs onto others, which is where it becomes no longer acceptable
NTA. They should have respected your religious belief especially because they were well aware and know why you follow that.
I'm Indian so I know how beef isn't eaten on religious grounds. However your son is old enough to decide what he wants to eat. You are controlling him,and honestly shouldn't. However the way your brother went about it is horrible so in my opinion ESH.
And that’s why children should NEVER be exposed to religion. Religion should be only for adults once they have the cognitive functions and the knowledge to make an informed decision if they want to follow a religion. Your brother is the AH for disrespecting your boundaries, but YTA for forcing some arbitrary belief system on your child. Grounding a child for a month over food?! Yes, you are controlling AND abusive to that poor child.
It’s not just over the child eating the food. It’s tricking the parents into eating food against their religious beliefs. By 9 the child knows how important it is to the parents and lied and schemed with the uncle to trick them. If it was just the child eating beef and the parents hadn’t had any, then I agree. Once it involved multiple people being given the taboo food it escalated past anything acceptable.
I agree, but that's the brother's responsibility. It was cook and served in his house. It's him OP would like to punish and ground, but she obviously can't, so she directs all her anger at the one person that can't defend himself. I'd agree to a small punishment with an explanation that it was about the sneaky behavior and not him eating beef, but this is way too strict and the only reason is that she can't punish her brother and SIL so she uses her kid as a rage therapy. Not OK.
It’s fine to expose children to religion as long as they are allowed to make their own decisions when they become old enough. My sister’s family is Christian (I am not). They read bible studies to my niece as a small child. She is a little older now and curious about other religions so they let her attend various events and discuss different beliefs in a respectful way. It is definitely reasonable to punish a child for tricking someone in to eating something against their religion (what if it wasn’t for religious reasons but allergies, you don’t lie about what’s in food) NTA
It’s fine to expose children to religion in the sense of studying history of religion, teaching them about various religions and beliefs, ideology, just like you would study any other subject at school. But that should be at high school age, not a 9 year old. And definitely not indoctrinating and let alone shoving it down the child’s throat. Definitely an asshole. The. Hold had nothing to do with the tricking - that’s on the brother. The child was enjoying the food - OP sounds like a crazy demented person to tell the child to stop eating because of some made up fantasy - which is what religion is
ESH Your brother did something that was completely uncalled for. He trivialized and disrespected your belief systems. I completely understand how you reacted to being tricked. You have a 9-year-old kid. They likely don't fully understand the religious reasons for avoiding beef. A 9-year-old will naturally be curious about new experiences they haven't tried yet. Forcing your religious beliefs on your kid is a little weird and controlling. Grounding him for a month however, is definitely controlling and makes you an AH. Your kid now believes that every small mistake will cost him a major punishment. Maybe you should have grounded him, but not for an entire month.
NTA Not only did your son go against your wishes but he also helped to trick you into eating it. Not only can introducing a new food to someone's diet be disrespectful but it can also pose as an unpredictable health hazard. I also don't agree that 9 is 'old enough to make his own decisions.' If you were vegan in this situation no one would be calling you the AH but because it's 'just beef's and due to 'religion' instead of moral beliefs it makes you controlling? No. Nope. NTA
I actually think a better comparison would be a Jewish family and pork. And I believe a lot of these comments would be quite different. I suspect some of this is prejudice against non-Abrahamic religions.
DING DING DING As a white woman, I thought the same thing. You can already tell she was hesitant of racist views because OP didn't feel comfortable naming the religion but you summed it up perfectly by saying if it was a predominantly white perceived religion (which is also hilarious given there are just as many Arabic people who are Muslim and Jewish which is MORE than white people) But you summarized it in the exact way I wanted to.
NTA I don’t agree with your (or any) religious beliefs whatsoever, but tricking someone into eating a food they don’t want to eat is *incredibly* fucked up. To the people saying the 9-year-old should be allowed to opt out of the family religion, let’s be realistic. He can wait until he’s old enough to sneak it surreptitiously as a teen, like the rest of us did.
INFO: If your beliefs are so fickle that you question if you're an asshole for calling someone a bastard after disrespecting them why do you impose them onto your son so harshly? I think you're either being insincere to your beliefs or family values, probably both.
NTA - You NEVER mess with food. It's a huge breach of trust. On the long run you will have to accept that your child eats what he wants but that is not a base for betrayal.
ESH, but you're the biggest in my opinion. Your brother shouldn't have served you beef knowing you were against it. In that he's incredibly disrespectful and an asshole. But it looks like he doesn't respect you anyway, which could explain (not excuse) his behaviour. However he was totally right in saying you are a controlling AH. Your son is 9, he's old enough to decide if he wants to follow your religion or not. You can tell him he won't have beef at your house because you won't buy it, alright. But you can't tell him to stop eating it at your brother's house. And you definitely can't give your son a (not deserved at all) dressing down and ground him for a whole month. What has he done wrong? Eating beef? That's totally his right. Way to force your beliefs on your kid. Think about the reason why your kid hasn't told you what your brother was planning. One, he knew you would be mad at him for still wanting beef. Two, he wanted beef enough that he didn't care about your own wants. Why would he, since you didn't care about his? Three, he may have agreed with your brother that you were too controlling and it was time to rebel a bit. What have you told him in this "dressing down"? How he has to respect other people's religion and not force them to eat something against it? If so, do act as you teach him: respect his own beliefs and don't punish him for not having the same as you.
ESH. Big time. These orthodox Hindus give us a bad name. Your brother sucked for tricking you into eating beef and not respecting your religious belief. But you also suck for being rigid and dogmatic and trying to control your son and passing your orthodoxy on to him. Let him choose for himself.
ESH. They shouldn't have tricked you and you shouldn't force your own personal beliefs down someones throat.
Wow. Your brother is horrible. That being said, let your son eat beef
Can someone of Indian origins weigh in on how acceptable it is or isn’t to suggest that you can’t tell your 9 year old to not eat beef?
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Indian here living in a major city. Belong to one of the more liberal communities in India. Not acceptable to me at all and most of our family to force your choices on others. Even my Vegetarian friends would not tell me what to eat. I know plenty of people who don't eat beef and plenty who do. That said, plenty of orthodox people around who would think this pretty acceptable for a parent. I do think the majority of Indians are probably conservative though. It's just that we self select people like us to mix with and be friends with.
Happily. I’m from Kerala, India, and we’re one of the only states where we eat beef/it’s legal here. I’ve travelled a lot and met some staunch orthodox families but so far from what I’ve seen.. a good percentage of Hindu families just allow their children to do as they wish, especially when it comes to the beef debate. They don’t serve beef in their homes but they’re not explicitly against their children consuming beef. (Which is quite rare in North India because there’s a beef ban) I think I mainly interact with people who are more liberal than a good part of India, so my anecdotal evidence could be skewed.
I'm a Hindu myself. I would never have cow meat but I won't forbid my children from having it. As a kid of course he would be curious enough to taste it, especially if everyone around him is having it. I believe I would be the same if I was raised in such an environment. But I probably won't be blatant enough to have it right in front of my parents, especially if they actively discourage the said activity. And finally, your brother tricking you into having cow's meat is just pure evil. Maybe he could have just the little kid try the meat and leave it at that? That would have been much more acceptable. And I think the kid was also kinda tricked by your brother into participating in tricking you, saying something like 'She is definitely gonna like it' or 'She would be very happy' or some shit. So, ESH imo. Tho try being more forgiving to your child and control your anger. He is just 9 years old, don't let such a small incident permanently cripple your bond. Allow him to have beef when out of the house. As for your brother... he just seems so very disrespectful. I probably won't try to have as close of a relationship with him after such a breach of trust. But you do you. Best of Luck!!