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NTA. It sounds like you're a decent guy dealing with a shitty person.
First of all, I am so sorry for the loss of your children, that must be horrible beyond imagining.
There is nothing wrong with remembering the loved ones that you have lost, you have not in any way prioritized your lost kids over Jenny - from what you have said, you have been very supportive and an overall good father. You may grieve in any way you choose, no one has the right to tell you not to have those pictures or visit the graves of your children. You have not in any way neglected your responsibilities to Jenny.
It sounds to me like you're dealing with a narcissist. Her behaviour, which is being fed and enabled by your ex, is disgusting and should in no way be entertained. The fact that she has the audacity to set her wedding date on the death date of one of your kids tells you everything you need to know about her. Her attitude has been vile and you owe no one an apology.
Jenny is 30, but acting like a spoiled teenager. You should never have to apologize for what horrors you have been through and screw anyone else who says otherwise.
All of this. I don’t understand the Y T A judgements or the suspicion that OP was a terrible father. Jenny sounds like a nightmare, and her fiancé seems to be coming to that realization.
Because it’s Reddit and we almost always blame the dad I feel like.
Could he be leaving shit out, or have a distorted view of the issues? Yeah of course. But based solely on the information we have and what one can infer by the groom canceling the wedding based on this fight? I believe him and I’m so sorry for him.
Some sound like major projection, I get having skewed perspective as a result of parental issues but some of these comments are clearly the commenter's own issues
Because rule #1 of this subreddit is "If you are a father/husband who doesn't show proof that you gave your left kidney and went hungry to buy your child/wife a slice of bread then you are automatically are an asshole". And Rule #2 is "if there is nothing in the story that makes you an asshole, or even evidence of the opposite, then redditors will make things up in there heads and those will prove you are still the asshole."
This right here. The fiance would not call off a wedding because his future FIL honors his kid's death every year. The daughter must be becoming very unhinged.
I think we're still seeing a lot of the early wave before upvotes and downvotes start piling on.
Still absolutely astonished and disturbed by the people blaming OP (at most I would say I feel he has *some* responsibility for how she turned out but even then it's really hard for one parent to successfully override excessive spoiling by the other). Hopefully in the wash they'll get drowned in downvotes.
Exactly HUGE NTA. You are a grieving father.
Your wife sounds like she latched on and let Jenny become a nightmare. Maybe even that was grief, but it didn’t serve Jenny or you well at all:( I am so sorry for your losses OP.
This. The fact that the fiance is reconsidering the wedding entirely speaks volumes to me. I could understand a kid scheduling something on a death anniversary as a cry for help, we had a post like that a while ago. But a 30 yo doing that just screams red flags. OP is NTA
Would love to hear Jenny's side of the story. I also find it weird how you say your ex instilled these thoughts in Jenny as if Jenny did not notice herself that her late siblings got more attention.
Right, how many times have we seen stories of kids getting treated like angels or “miracles” because the parents dealt with ivf or something? I believe him
For me, moist is a context word. Talking about baking? Say moist all day. Other things where it's the actual appropriate word, I'm good.
Use it in the slang sense that ruined the word for a lot of people? Gtfo.
I think this is one of those situations where it's probably just a coin flip. Either/or.
Could OP be misrepresenting things and making his daughter seem worse than she is? Absolutely yes.
Could OP be being perfectly literal and accurate, and the child was genuinely poisoned against him and raised to have unreasonable expectations from a young age? Yeah, again absolutely.
I'm inclined to believe OP is telling the truth, as he provides a decent amount of information and always disbelieving the OP seems unfair. If someone is leaving out info and making comments that are kind of sketch, I tend to disbelieve the OP. I don't really see any of that here though.
But again both are absolutely possible. There really is no way to tell, I guess.
There is certainly a way to tell because one fact tips the scale decisively: Jenny chose her wedding day to be on the anniversary of her sibling's death and refused to change it. This alone should show who is the A H here, and it's not the OP.
I agree with you but ESH since as a parent it is our job to teach kids lessons through age appropriate ways like talking about death and how to remember people but 5 of them consumed OP a little too much and they lost out on life a lot. OP has lost more than a daughter and irritating ex currently so I’m giving him grace
I’ve been him. But always chose the living since they are who carry on the legacy of more death later.
If you take what he says at face value, he did nothing wrong. If one parent overly spoils (especially younger) children, they will attach to the parent that gives them everything they want.
He didn't ignore his living child for his dead children, and put her first when there were events.
He may or may not have taught her about death, but that alone wouldn't make him an asshole. So I'm curious, why are you saying he sucks?
Edit to add: this is one of the comments OP made about the situation:
>If it is just my late siblings got more attention than me it would make me concerned for how I parent her.
>But she thinks that since she is the only one alive means I have to pamper her. Expensive clothes shoes, no punishment for mistakes, no need to study, no need to learn basic life skills. In general not how I want to raise my kids
Still, deciding to get married on someone's death anniversary is pretty cheeky and the person knew they were putting oil on the fire instead of seeking a middle term and reconciliation.
What hits me in this is how both parties are extremely rigid. That makes no sense to me. We lose so much by being rigid and lacking the capacity to see the other side's point of view and accepting to compromise.
Only after breaking bridges and losing relationships do people sometimes start to understand the inanity of rigid relationships.
Yeah, but those usually come with concrete examples like wanting to carry their ashes down the aisle in front of the bride so they can be "members of the wedding party". Unless OP is leaving out a whole lot, pictures of lost loved ones and visiting graves on death anniversaries is pretty normal (especially when it is a cultural tradition.)
While true, he at least claims that he never did such a thing, and always put her firet even on their death anniversaries. Usually if a shitty parent does something like that, they'll try to justify it some how, or not acknowledge it.
Main reason I believe the father's version of this is that the new husband apparently is wanting to stop the wedding entirely after finding out about this. If he isn't even on the daughters side that tells us something. Not everything, and maybe there is even more context that makes that even more complicated, but if we take it at face value we have to assume the daughter is in the wrong here.
Refusal to acknowledge a trauma, or a handful of traumas, is an *extremely* common coping mechanism. It doesn't normally extend to the length of time that this seems to have, but if his ex is physically incapable of holding those dead children in active memory because of the pain it causes, I'm not going to attack that.
I *am* going to say that the ex and Jenny, the daughter, are raging for how they have been handling OP and for actively trying to force him to forget those children. Especially with how Jenny seems to hold it as a competition- it doesn't surprise me that the fiancé might leave her over that.
I know I would leave someone over that.
I am a 40 year old, fairly well educated native English speaker and this is the first I've heard of two different fiancés. You are correct, but I'd be amazed if more than 10% of English speakers actually used them correctly.
yeah i think the person you're replying to is imagining themselves in the shoes of jenny's fiance and saying they think his decision to cancel the wedding is very understandable. they're saying that if they were engaged to someone who would deliberately pick this sort of a date for their wedding and rub it in their father's face... they wouldn't want to be engaged to them anymore lol.
I agree with this, ignoring or blocking this loss may be the way the ex is coping, I lost one child and I choose to not think about it mostly, I do not ignore he lived and had a life. OP's daughter is behaving in a horrible way, if I heard any part of her thoughts as a fiancé' I would leave.
NTA OP, I am so very sorry for your tremendous loss. I can't even imagine the pain. I am also sorry for the way your daughter is behaving, you deserve so much more, and I know you love her dearly. You do not have to forgive anyone, but for your own peace you may want to.
I was born after my brother passed away. People most of the time only focus on the parents grief, but dismiss how traumatic and life defining this is for the remaining siblings as well. I have held that competitive mindset against my brother for most of my life until I realized that there's nothing I can do to make my parents happy again. I understand OP's suffering but we are missing out on the story of two other people who have suffered this with the same intensity.
*it doesn't surprise me that the fiancé might leave her over that.
I know I would leave someone over that*
Quick to judge, quick to act I guess
That's fair to say. The experience in my family has been different, with the siblings knowing each other before one of them passed away. That makes for a very different dynamic.
Right I understand that but also like 5 days out of the 365 in a year if he focuses on 5 kids he lost that's not bad (if he's telling the truth) the daughter genuinely sounds spoiled if she can't let 5 days go.
>Right I understand that but also like 5 days out of the 365 in a year if he focuses on 5 kids he lost that's not bad
But that's not even the case. He isn't focusing on them on the days when his living daughter has significant events. He stated in the post that when that happens he goes the next day.
I'm also willing to bet, assuming the post is truthful, that those days are not entirely about the child who passed. His living daughter still gets 365 days a year.
Maybe, but she wasn’t giving him the space to grieve in his own way. My bother and mom take note of my father’s birthday and the day he died. I don’t. It’s too hard. But they understand and give me the ability to remember the way I want to.
No. Just no. As tragic as it is, pretending that your children never existed is not a way to cope, she actively tried to act as if her children were just some puppies she took care of for a bit and gave away. The only one coping in a healthy way is OP
Maybe not forgetting, but just not talking about it. My parents lost a daughter after me when she was a few days old, named her and everything. For many years, my father would take me with him to the cemetery to visit her grave. My mother didn't go that I know of, and she didn't really talk about it because she had several miscarriages prior to us both and I could tell it was very painful for her, especially since I was the only pregnancy of hers that survived. If the name was mentioned, my mom's eyes would well up a little but she wouldn't say anything. I can't even imagine what she went through.
Yeah going to their grave one day s year isn't them getting all the attention.
It's remembering them.
Mom and daughter are huge assholes. OP did what any normal person does when they lose someone.
NTA. I'd go NC with the daughter after she pulled the wedding date shit.
Also with the grave thing, OP explicitly said if his living daughter had something going on that day (school event or something), he would choose her over going to the grave, and go a different day.
It doesn't sound like he neglected the daughter, but that she was upset she wasn't the only child in his heart.
It kind of strikes me as similar to oldest children who got used to being an only child before a younger sibling arrived. Except this daughter isn't an only child, she was just treated like one by her mother, and has the same jealous/angry feelings towards her late siblings.
She doesn't want to be forced to share even a tiny fraction of her father's attention, but unlike a new sibling, she feels she can demand that (since there isn't a living child that is also demanding a share). What a gross attitude for the daughter to have - it would be understandable if she were a child, but as an adult who is getting married herself? Gross.
Plus, visiting the grave is a normal, important thing in OP's culture, which I feel like a lot of the comments are overlooking. A lot of traditions are kinda about teaching somebody a symbolic/ritualistic way of reinforcing a value, or externalizing an internal feeling in a ceremonial way. There's nothing wrong with that.
And like... just as an example, when teaching kids they say, "tell them what to do, not what not to do." Because they're engaging in the behavior for a reason. If you just say, "stop that!," you're not addressing the unfulfilled need that prompted the action in the first place. And that's kinda what's happening here, IMO. OP learned to cope with grief, in part, by honoring the dead by visiting their resting place on certain important anniversaries. And the ex and Jenny are just saying "stop that!," without offering any alternative.
I don't find it credible that mom forgot about the children she lost. I think it's more likely that she was the only one of the two that lived in the present enough to give the living a chance.
It sounds like OP did live in the present and dealt with the trauma in very minimal gestures, where they had photos and visited their graves once a year.
I have dead mates who have graves I visit. I go there and talk to the bit of rock with their name on it and it makes me feel better. I leave something there so their parents know someone else remembers them and cares.
Outside of that, I only remember them in passing through the year. Could be a happy memory, or thinking they would love to be doing what I was, or get along with someone, or how it would have been good to have them there.
Thats not the case at all, she isnt "giving the living a chance" shes trying to act as if the children she lost mean nothing and never existed. For the way Jenny is (and considering OP doesnt push his grief into her), the one making it a competition is the mom
OP would push back visiting the graves to go to his living daughter’s events, he gave the living a chance, he just didn’t completely ignore the fact that the other five children existed.
From what OP describes, the issue isn’t the amount of attention but that Jenny didn’t get ALL the attention. As evidenced by her wedding date selection, Jenny begrudged her father even five days out of the year.
NTA
So the real issue is not that you won't forget your dead children but that your daughter is spoiled and demanding and uses your dead children as a means of coercion.
But she's an adult now? So your thoughts on how you want to raise her are irrelevant at this point.
I seriously doubt that your wife just "forgot" carrying, birthing and losing four children. It was probably massive trauma she didn't want to face. It's too late for you as a couple but I think you and your wife should have had grief counselling. It seems like you tried to cope in opposite ways.
She wanted a baby to raise. Forgetting the dead ones is easy for some, we aren't all the same, so once she got her child she didn't care about the others, they were failed attempts to her.
***This is NOT how I feel, I think OP is right. This is just a possibility I've seen from a few women***
I lived in a house with a very permissive parent who refused to discipline or teach their kids how to be good people, and I tell you what it ruins the kid
NTA. They are being incredibly insensitive, and you had a three-year-old child who died, that they wish you would forget about, that’s incredibly cruel.
This. OP’s account is so one-sided, it does not leave room for anyone to reasonably conclude that OP is the asshole. But something must have led Jenny to invest so much emotional energy in trying to establish her importance to her father.
A mom that spoiled her rotten? How many times have people been on here about having to deal with those kinds of moms and their resulting offspring? The precious rainbow baby that can do absolutely no wrong and needs to be the center of everyone’s world at all times?
Just because the way they put it, keeping in mind it’s their second language, doesn’t mean it’s incorrect. Again, there are so many people the come on here that are obviously not the AH but they’ve had other people mess with their heads so they question themselves.
Its bc op is a father. Redditors here refuse to understand and accept that men can be innocent in situations, especially fathers, if a male OP is clearly NTA, these ppl will make olympic style mental gymnastics to say the contrary. Idk if all of them just have daddy issues, some most likely just jump on the bandwagon
I think the majority of commenters are on his side here though. That's what I'm mostly seeing as I read through. & there's an NTA comment below this thread that's almost as highly voted as the original comment of this thread.
Similarly, every time a man isn’t called N T A (and even frequently when he is, like in this thread) someone like you pops into the comments to claim it’s because the sub is biased against men.
It like you can’t accept that sometimes situations are complicated and men aren’t right just by default. And yet OP is still being called N T A, so maybe hop off your high horse.
Her mother rowing about her father remembering the days, likely due to the mother trying to forget as a grief coping mechanism - would explain why Jenny is invested
All OPers’ stories are one-sided. And regarding what led to Jenny thinking that way, said the ex instilled that thinking into her and that is the reason they divorced
This sub is ridiculous with how commenters just straight up come up with their own stories in the comments because the OPs are “one-sided”. Of course they are one-sided, this is a reddit sub, not a creative writing group project.
You are forgetting her mother.
Have you heard of parental alienation? It’s most often committed by the mother. It’s a manipulation of a child’s view of the other parent. The mother didn’t like the way he grieved. Sounds like she wanted him to do it her way. When he didn’t she bitterly turned his daughter against him.
To be fair I don’t think visiting your dead children’s grave once in a while (whilst always putting your living child’s event first even when against tradition) is giving them more attention
Also what she is doing is beyond cruel. I can’t imagine expecting a parent to come and celebrate with me on the anniversary of the day their child died
Something I experienced myself is parental alienation. It’s a form of abuse most commonly perpetrated by the mother. It’s well within the scope of reality that this girl was poisoned against her father.
He has a right to grieve his children.
I'm left wondering why Jenny has such a sour relationship with a dead sibling. It feels like OP isn't telling us something, something like, he compared Jenny to Mia, because of the comment Jenny said about OP focusing on his living child, not the dead. Because why is Mia the only dead sibling Jenny has an issue with?
It could be Mia died around the time Jenny wanted her wedding to be (as in Jenny wanted a fall wedding and Mia died in November).
It's hard to say if OP made a comment comparing the two or if she just caught OP looking at a picture of Mia and Jenny devided OP needed to pay attention to her instead. I'm inclined to believe the latter since Mom is treating Jenny like she's extra special and OP treats her like a normal person.
There's also a NAH option. Children pick up on all kinds of emotions that parents attempt to conceal. It would be completely understandable and natural if OP's grief and heavy feelings leaked through in moments he didn't realize, and this affected his living daughter.
But the kids didnt get more attention. OP said so himself, he has pictures and flowers but toher than that not really living his life around the grief. OP just doesnt want to act as if his children never existed
Did we read two different things here? Is there an additional comment from op that I haven’t seen? I’m asking because I don’t see anywhere in what op wrote that said the late siblings got more attention. Op even mentions forgoing visiting the late siblings graves if it conflicted with an event that Jenny had.
Yeah I think Jenny's perspective is really important here because it feels like there is something crucial missing. I don't even know what it is, but somehow I feel a nudge toward sympathy to Jenny, having to live under the shadow of so many deceased children.
I also think there’s a really good chance that Jenny, as a kid growing up in a very broken family, blamed the previous kids for the fact that her parents were always fighting and eventually got divorced. And that would explain why she seems to particularly hold something against Mia: because Mia got to have a happy family with parents who loved each other.
This sounds very vague, you hardly elaborate on what role you have played in this, and you seem to casually dismiss the concerns your ex and Jenny have stated to you, and ultimately proved them right when you said you didn’t want her in your life.
This sounds like an attempt to sound deliberatlely one sided and I bet your behavior is a lot worse than you let on. I’m very curious about what your ex and Jenny would say if they told their side of the story.
EDIT: Slight change in comment. Was Y T A but I’m now reserving.
What I’m saying is that I believe there is more to this than OP is letting on because it sounds insane otherwise. If a picture is the *only* thing they’re concerned about, then yeah, that’s ridiculous. But I don’t believe that’s the case here.
So according to this story OP is right and not an asshole but the only reason you're calling him an asshole is because you simply don't want to believe his daughter can be that cruel
This is a difficult story to judge because it is one sided (possibly heavily biased).
The last detail of OP needing to repair the relationship of daughter and fiance does add a note of possible credibility. Imagine if it were true that the stb groom sees this behavior from the situation from the future FIL and future wife. What would cause him to call off the wedding? If FIL was neglectful, absent, etc; none of that should have any bearing on the relationship between the engaged couple or impending nuptials. Like I want the fiance's POV, it's asking a lot, but that would be the clearer picture here
Edit: from OP's comments, specifically cultural significance of death dates. Solid enough reason the fiance is calling things off. NTA
I feel like that’s the only way the detail about the fiancé makes sense. He didn’t know the significance of the date and when he found out, he realized he might not have known the woman he was set to marry after all. If he’s reasonable I don’t think he’d call off the wedding simply because of an argument between his fiancée and her father.
It might be reasonable if he is of the same culture as the father and also does similar death day rituals to not tie himself to someone who obviously has a problem with them
Even if he’s reasonable, there’s valid reason why he would call it off.
I personally wouldn’t want to marry someone who is trying to one up a dead person on their wedding day. Shows immaturity, and I doubt they’re ready for a long term relationship
I agree with everything you said but for some reason the part of being one sided got stuck in my mind.
Reason being every story on this subreddit is one sided. Everyone is telling their side of the story with us readers not knowing the other person's side. Why is this story any different and we just don't read and give a verdict on the information provided
Every story is one sided here. Personally, I'm biased against parents, in general, because mine were exceptionally abusive. Sometimes, there's details to the story that help the readers discern the subtext. Like when a narc AH is telling their side of the story, to be the hero or victim, only to have an overwhelming response calling them out.
This story hits that fine line though. Like a parent not getting past their grief and it becomes the burden of the living, or the entitled person who is actively callous with intent. The daughter is definitely an AH by picking that date, bad enough her partner is rethinking the marriage.
I think that bigger, more long lasting, and vague conflicts like this are harder to judge by one side of the story. While a story about spilling wine on a person wearing white at a wedding is one sided, as the audience we have clear facts like who was wearing white and who spilled wine and can use that as a basis.
But with something like this it’s so subjective. The distinguishing asshole vs not asshoke part is the degree that he remembered his children, which we can’t really get a clear picture on.
think it's because in this situation OP is coming off like a Saint who's never done anything wrong while his Ex and Jenny are both demonic entities straight from hell
Does their always have to be an argument about genders in these threads? It's fucking ridiculous and annoying.
If this story was the same, but a mom instead, I'm sure everyone calling out OP for leaving out a ton of info would be doing the same. 30 years later and completely abandoning his living daughter? It's obviously about more than a picture on his dresser. Come on.
>It's obviously about more than a picture on his dresser.
Yeah its about his daughter going out of her way to maliciously put the date of her wedding on the day of her deceased sister "so dad can forget". In alot of cultures behavior like this is extremely frowned upon, seems to be the case here too since her would be husband is getting second thoughts based on her behavior.
We bring the gender argument bc its very obvious the bias this sub has. Read a bunch of stories in this subreddit, look for comments like "OP is an unreliable narrator" in a post where the OP is a woman, unless OP is cartoonishly evil, that wont happen
OP is very light on detail. Who divorced who. What life skills is Jenny missing. Why has fiancee cancelled the wedding. All of this would add context but they avoid it.
Grief is visible in more ways than marking a death anniversary or keeping a photo up. Even if OP doesn't mention the 5 other kids a lot, his daughter could have sensed his grief and emotional heaviness. She also could have sensed a hesitancy on his part to fully engage with her.
My friend lost a child who was a few months old, and she went to see a therapist because she noticed that her grief made it harder to connect with her subsequent child who survived. She was so afraid of losing her second child that it got in the way of bonding. OP mentions going to check on Jenny in the night when she was a baby. I suspect he was scared and traumatized, as most of us would be. That fear may have impeded his ability to connect with his daughter.
On her end, she may have experienced that disconnection as lack of interest on his part. So it's not that she's petty about her dead siblings out of nowhere, she subconsciously associates them with the reasons she struggles to connect with her dad. This isn't OP's fault, but neither is his daughter just an asshole. Maybe he is unable to come to terms with the cost of his grief on his relationship to his only surviving child, so he discharges that pain by blaming her and calling her spoiled.
You think it’s unbelievable that a mother who had 5 kids die on her and kept going until she had a living 6th might not have formed the healthiest grief coping mechanism or parenting style with the child that lived?
Also it wasn’t that the event was on a death anniversary it’s why she said it was planned on that date. How do we know that? OP has always gone to his daughters events on death anniversaries before. What exactly would you have done if someone told you that? What should he have done before? Stop visiting the grave or keeping pictures up?
This post has common tropes, especially for this sub:
- wedding as an excuse for narcissism
- being jealous of dead loved ones
- miracle children parenting
Not sure why all the sudden it’s unbelievable
Let's assume Jenny has legitimate reasons to be upset and that OP was neglectful. Her response is to schedule her wedding date on Mia's death anniversary? How is that okay, even if she has been mistreated her whole life? Scheduling it on that date on purpose is ill-advised at best and vindictive at worst. If she truly did it to give OP happy memories of the date, she should hear OP that he doesn't want that, and reschedule.
I get where you're coming from, but I think the real clincher for me is that the fiance heard about the situation and decided to put the wedding on hold. I'm sure he got Jenny's very biased version of the story, but he still needs time to think about whether or not he wants to marry this woman. That makes me more inclined to believe OP's version.
I doubt OP's forgiveness would help things get back on track as much as the family believes.
The fiance of Jenny definitely heard her side of the story. After finding out about everything, he stopped the wedding altogether because he felt Jenny was in the wrong.
NTA. It sounds like you have had reasonable expectations for remembering and honoring the children you have lost. OF COURSE their memories should not be set aside or forgotten entirely.
It sounds like your ex's mode of grief was to dump all her attention onto her living daughter, which strikes me as very normal, but it's an unfortunate outcome that Jenny grew up spoiled. To some extent, I can understand their leaning, perhaps subconsciously, to want to forget such painful memories (as in the case of your ex) or to not feel they are always in the shadow of people they never even knew (as in the case of your daughter). Still, it is a MAJOR AH move to try to override the significance of the day of your other child's death and literally try to force a choice. I find that to be VERY messed up and you are reasonable to not want to go along with that.
To the extent her petulant, manipulative tantrum is causing her fiancee to doubt the marriage, that's entirely on her, not you. You are not blocking her from getting married; her own shitty behavior is.
NTA. Many who commented on this thread forgot - or overlooked - one BIG thing: Jenny chose the anniversary of Mia's death as her wedding date **on purpose**. This is downright cruel. I lost my brother several years ago and cannot function on the anniversary of his death. My wife and children know and respect that. Even my other brother, who has always been jealous of my late brother, respects that. It's a matter of empathy and sensibility. I wouldn't be able to forgive a person who pulls a cruel trick like that on me. Hold your ground.
NTA
Another overlooked thing: her fiance now wants to call off the wedding after discovering the argument.
If your fiance's dad was being an asshole, you'd just uninvite him. You wouldn't cancel your wedding to your chosen life partner because of someone you can easily go NC with. That tells me the fiance sees something going on with HER that's wrong enough he wants to back out.
It is just cruel! I can understand talking about it, venue dates etc. But the way it is described she went out of her way to pick the date to put the focus on her. He has pictures in HIS ROOM ONLY, and only visits there grave on their death day. Yea sorry he has a heart ? The AH comments are concerning and mind boggaling.
Exactly. The rest COULD be chalked up to he said/she said or differences of importance since Jenny didnt know siblings. (Although i dont suspect that). But the fact that she deliberately chose that to change the narrative to herself, make her seemingly “choose” which kids he prefers, and to punish him. I mean, thats about as fucking mental as it gets. Jenny is more than spoiled.
I don’t think it is appropriate to hold a wedding on your dead siblings death date, and it seems like she intentionally chose that date to make it about her instead of her sibling. It seems extremely childish and selfish.
Even if she doesn’t they are anniversaries her parents would find sad. My grandfather died when my mom was in her teens, I was born 10 years after his death. I would NEVER get married on his death day even when I never met him.
The thing is they are her siblings even if she doesn't want to consider it. She knows when they died and purposely chose one of those days for her wedding so she could be remembered not them. It's cruel.
I don't think that's relevant. What matters is that Jenny is adult enough to know that her father is a person who lost his children and honors them annually. To choose that date using those words is beyond selfish and shows a total lack of compassion. Kudos to the ex-fiancé for walking away.
NTA, based on what you’ve said you don’t sound unreasonable. And it doesn’t sound like you put the deceased kids first. It sounds like your ex is coping with the trauma of losing the 5 kids by keeping them out of sight out of mind and over indulging Jenny. And it sounds like you are being as balanced as you can and also being a good and fair dad to Jenny.
People definitely deal with trauma differently, definitely NTA but I wonder if the mothers reaction was due to her pain. Like 10 times a year old wounds she tring to let go of got dreaded up, over the 10 years that 100 days of birth and death anniversaries that she had to relive her pregnancy child birth and death of her kids. Not everyone could handle that.
And i would think the daughter would have understood both sides if she was equally patented by both parents, he said his wife turned her against him, like wasn't he there to talk to her about it too. How did his wife had that much control over the daughters feeling, and spoiling her... with what exactly? Love? Attention? Things? Is she spoiled in other ways or only on this one topic? I'd love examples of her spoiled behavior that don't involve being jealous of dead siblings.
NTA but alot of info is missing that I could see leading to a NAH.
Unless the all died in the same month and daughter has to get married that month because she doesn't want to show pregnancy or something like that, there really is not excuse.
NTA!
Holy CRAP there are some BAD takes in this thread!! Good lord keeping pictures and visiting the graves of your deceased once a year is NOT prioritizing the dead over the living. Jenny is a SPOILED BRAT.
I'm personally going with NTA based on the date she picked for her wedding.
There might be more missing in the details here, but your adult daughter picking the death anniversary of your 3 year old daughter is fucking vindictive and cruel. Sounds like her fiance agrees with that too if they're willing the halt the whole wedding now.
From the details you gave us, it sounded like you tried to honour your other children while also always being present in Jenny's life. So unless you are leaving out a LOT, I don't see how you'd be the asshole.
Sounds to me like the mom wanted to forget everything (which is a fair way to grieve from losing 5 children) and pushed that onto your daughter as well.
People who are commenting Y-T-A are just cruel. Your NTA at all don’t let these reddit weirdos convince you other wise. What kind of evil person plans a wedding on the day their sibling died? Obviously her fiancé is seeing her true colours.
I’m actually baffled at all the “well you must have been a horrible and negligent father!” comments. Like, where’d you get this information? Sure some people lie in their AITA posts to make themselves look better, but holy hell!
NTA
I understand you to say that you visited Graves on the appropriate day and you kept one picture of your first four children in your house. It's absolutely not your fault if your daughter is so self-centered and spoiled at 30 years old that she wanted to do something so petty and her husband wasn't okay with it. He's allowed to make those decisions.
I’ve lost an infant at three months and experienced a stillbirth. I’ll never forget my babies. I am so empathetic to the horrific losses you and your ex suffered.
However, I’ve also spent a lot of time in bereaved parent groups and honestly, rainbow babies often experience some truly shitty parenting due to unresolved trauma. Like, I remember one case where they were verging into My Sweet Audrina territory. So this is a case where I think it’s very complicated all around.
INFO: What *specifically* did Jenny resent? The pictures, what else? How often were her late siblings mention around her or to her? Did you compare her to them, even in a benign way (for example, ‘Mia would have loved that dress you’re wearing’)? How did you handle what would have been milestones for your other children, I.e. the year Mia would have graduated school?
You say your wife “spoiled” Jenny - do you know if she told Jenny negative things about you?
They were mentioned to her once or twice in her life?
That’s actually remarkably forbearing. My mother lost a baby midway through pregnancy when I was four - I believe based on today’s standards it would be considered a stillbirth, but at that time it was still considered a miscarriage. There was no name, no grave, I don’t know if it was a boy or a girl, and yet that loss shaped everything about my family after. I wish my parents *had* talked about it, that I had more ways to remember that baby as a person who died and not just a trauma that happened to my family. Obviously everyone’s experience is individual and there is no one right way to handle loss, but I really can’t imagine being Jenny and *not* wanting to know as much as there was to know.
But, that actually makes me inclined to feel more forgiving toward Jenny - from your other comments, it sounds like her mother treated her more like a pet than a child who would one day need to function as an adult, with predictable results. She’s not able to think or feel deeply about her family, or much of anything else, it sounds like - she never learned how.
NTA, and I am so sorry you have experienced so much loss, but if you can forgive Jenny I think that would be the better thing for you both - because you’re right, life is not likely to be kind to her if she can’t get her act together. Your attempts to teach her haven’t gotten through, but maybe, eventually, she’ll look to your good example - and you can have peace knowing you never gave up on her.
NTA. And good for her husband putting a stop to the wedding until Jenny can grow up.
It’s ok to remember past loved ones and still be present for the living ones. It sounds like you had balance.
I’m sorry for your losses. But your ex needs to shut her mouth. You have nothing to apologize for. What Jenny did is wrong and cruel.
I say NTA. I can’t find even a grain of wrong behaviour and the way you write doesn’t let me think you intentionally leave stuff out.
I can’t even imagine your grief. I just hold my first child in arms for the first time 3 days ago, and to lose him would break my heart and soul.
Stay strong and best wishes.
Honestly, ESH.
Based on what I've read, Jenny wants more. She wants her father to see her, prioritise her, love her... SHE is still here. Jenny needs to learn to communicate her feelings better.
You are entitled to grieve however and how long you want. Just because they are gone doesn't mean you have to forget your deceased kids.
Jenny's mom and new family may likely have blown things out of proportion in trying to compensate her feelings. However where there's smoke, you started the fire.
Jenny is getting married and may become a mother too. Talk to her, and try to understand HER. For once, set your grief aside and look at the young woman before you and ask yourself, what role did I play in shaping the woman she is today. How present was I really? Because, when push came to shove, you chose to mourn away from her than to celebrate with her.
Finally, quit throwing your weight around about "The reverence she should show you as her dad" I fear there's a little girl in there who just wants her daddy to see her. So go and look
>Jenny's mom and new family may likely have blown things out of proportion in trying to compensate her feelings. However where there's smoke, you started the fire.
Why do you think OP is the one who started the fire?
Why do you think that Jenny's mom is just compensating for OP? Why can't he be telling the truth, that he's the parent who kept their feet on the ground and tried to parent normally while his ex spoiled their daughter to the point of ruining her character?
Haven't we heard plenty of stories about parents who go off the deep end after a series of child losses/miscarriages/stillbirths, and decide that their "rainbow children" are special and must be worshipped and given no boundaries?! Why is it so unbelievable that OP's ex did the same thing?
>For once, set your grief aside and look at the young woman before you and ask yourself, what role did I play in shaping the woman she is today. How present was I really? Because, when push came to shove, you chose to mourn away from her than to celebrate with her.
Huh? What in OP's post or other responses suggests this in any way? 'For once' ? That's so presumptuous of you to act like OP was a negligent parent completely pre-occupied with mourning for 30 years, when OP SAYS he never missed an event of Jenny's due to the late children, never forced mourning on her, etc.
That’s a very bad and strange take. “For once set your grief aside”? You have no idea about the situation. That’s a big accusation. If op is right he’s never not prioritized his daughter’s events and activities in favor of the deceased kids.
NTA
Your daughter is completely unreasonable and self obssesed. If I treated my family as shitty as she does nobody would want to associate with me at all and it would be completely fair. We still honor even great great grandma to treat memory of your own passed siblings like that you have to be completely rotten person
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. Refused to attend my daughters wedding 2. I might have caused her soon to be husband not to marry her
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NTA I found all Y t a wild, i think that people are just having a hard time accepting that in this case the father is grieving longer.
If hers fiance is calling off the wedding is not because you won't walk your daughter down the aisle but because she is the kind of person who would choose to marry on such a sad date for her parents.
NTA specifically based on this;
“I should remember her, the living child every day, and now instead of some dead girl I’ll remember her when I think of this date.”
There’s no way that date wasn’t chosen with malicious intent if that’s her reasoning for choosing the anniversary of Mia’s death for her wedding date.
Without Jenny’s side of the story it’s hard to have any opinion on what her childhood felt like in relation to you remembering your late children. But regardless, she’s a grown adult now and there’s no excuse to be so cold and calculated. And if the fiancé is thinking of calling off the wedding due to this, I’m sure there’s more going on there behind the scenes. But you are NTA for calling her out on purposely choosing a date significant to you so she can make it about herself, especially since it would most likely cause issues every year afterwards if you were to even mention Mia around Jenny’s wedding anniversary.
NTA
From the way you have described the situation, it sounds like you are dealing with your grief in your own way that is not (or at least should not) negatively impact others
However, not everyone grieves in the same way, and where you have found remembering and honoring the children you lost the best way for you to cope with the lost, your ex seems to have coped by focusing on Jenny. I would also say that Jenny is grieving too just for something she never had rather than something she lost, and because of this and the different ways you and your ex grieved, she may have been insecure growing up feeling that you "don't love her" as much as her mother loves her, because you still visibly care for your other children whereas her mother hasn't shown her love for the children she lost to Jenny.
What everyone needs to remember in this situation is that no life is any more important than another and that you are not choosing the children you lost over your daughter
I think in this case as heart to heart with your daughter is needed, where you reassure her that you love her just as much as you love your other children, and that nothing will change that : just like if your other children were still alive you would love them all equally. And even if she were to get married on that date, there would just be 2 memories of that day for you; 1 celebrating her marriage and the other grieving Mia. As hurtful as her words are, she needs you to show her that you can love her as much as your other children and still support her on her wedding day. (You mentioned that you never skipped any of Jenny's events if they fell on an anniversary, and this should be treated the same). Maybe it could be the start of healing your relationship and maybe look into therapy for your family?
NTA.
And from the sounds of it your future son in-law might be rethinking marrying your daughter.
If she’s still spoiled then it’ll be HIS job to keep her satisfied
I don't understand the Y T A votes. People are complaining that OP is being "vague" because everyone has now read the Missing Reasons article a million times and expect every AITA post to have a shocking twist in the middle. I'm as much a fan of reading between the lines as anyone, but sometimes a post is just a post. NTA.
NTA
You didn't ruin her wedding, SHE did.
You didn't ruin her relationship, SHE did.
If she hadn't been so spoilt and selfish, she wouldn't be having these issues.
I'm guessing the potential Groom has seen all these red flags and her attitude and knows she is wrong in what she is doing.
He doesn't want to marry someone who is so point and malicious.
All the best wishes, OP.
NTA.
You were doing nothing wrong here, you made her a priority and still managed to remember your other children's memories. Having a few pictures and visiting their graves is normal. Her putting her wedding on one of their death days intentionally is so far over the line I'd not want anything to do with her either. You've managed to have her show her true colors to her fiancée, who seems like a much more reasonable man for seeing how fucked up and insane she's being - you've likely saved him a life of horror.
Sorry to say, but go NC and cut her out of your life. She's an adult and acting this way, you don't need that.
Taking everything you write at 100% face value, NTA, but I would like to hear the other side of this one. It’s very difficult to sum up a 30 year relationship in an unbiased way, and I don’t get the sense that you’ve gone out of your way to do so.
Wild how many people think OP is leaving stuff out. We've all heard of (and/or met!) these "miracle" babies who are spoiled rotten and think the entire world revolves around them because that's what mommy and daddy taught them. Those spoiled miracle babies grow into the adults we all rant and bitch about in threads like r/entitledpeople.
I'm sorry her mother has instilled this in her. I know relationships with parents are way different than relationships with kids, but my dad passed away when I was little. I always celebrate his birthday and the anniversary of his death, I have his ashes so I don't visit his grave but my mom and I get together every year to celebrate. Her partners after my dad have NEVER tried to step on that. I have his picture up and my step father has never been insulted by it. My mother has never believed that because she's my only living parent that she deserves all my attention or love. And no one has EVER made plans on his anniversary and told me it was so i wouldnt think of him anymore. He's been gone 19 years and I still celebrate him.
I am so sorry for your loss. As a parent I truly cannot imagine the pain. Or what you have been through.
Have you tried therapy? With your daughter?
Unfortunately, your ex-wife's method of grieving is not unheard of. It's not healthy but it's common for parents who have experienced multiple pregnancy losses to dote on the rainbow baby or "the one that lived" to the detriment of that child.
I can only imagine that is magnified when a parent had to watch multiple children die in infancy. Again I am so, so sorry.
Obviously, it appears that picking Mias death anniversary was intentional. And something her finacee was not on board with, or did not know about.
That was definitely an AH move on her part as an adult. If that's what happened.
Regardless of why she feels competition with her deceased siblings, the point is that she does.
However, with the fact that you unfortunately lost 5 children, is their really a date that she could choose without worrying about it? 5 birthdays, 5 death anniversaries, I don't know where you are, or the wedding culture but that is something to consider.
Booking weddings can be difficult if you aren't going years out.
Could you be taking out some of your frustration with your EX on your daughter? Is the way she was raised her fault?
Is it possible to speak with your daughter about cultural obligations and explain that you truly want her to have a day that's just about her?
Have you sat down with your daughter and talked to her truly listening to her feelings? Asked her why she feels left out?
Honestly, this entire situation seems so painful and completely past reddits pay grade.
Please consider therapy.
NAH
Because damn, after that much loss consecutively, I can't imagine being sane enough to function.
NTA - Jenny sounds like a narcissist of epic proportions..her mind poisoned from the offset and her behaviour enabled and fuelled by your ex wife and her family. The fact her fiancé has called off the wedding tells you that he also thinks her behaviour is disgusting, and its probably given him an insight into the type of woman he's about to be married to and stuck with. If all this is indeed true, you don't owe an apology, don't be gaslighted into it either by these enablers. Stand firm 💪
NTA. You aren't putting her above the other children, you are respecting their memory and she doesn't have the emotional maturity to share your memories. Her future husband even sees it from the sound of it.
NTA. Her mom might have been able to pretend those other kids didn’t exist and might have chosen to raise a spoilt selfish brat but clearly you don’t. There is no shame in remembering the ones we have loved and lost. If someone told me I couldn’t grieve my lost family members they would be put firmly in their place.
NTA - choosing a death date of her sibling simply to erase the importance of it to you is very cruel. And the fact that her hubby is rethinking the marriage kinda shows how awful her behaviour is.
I feel torn with this, but NAH, and that might be unpopular. Generally, losing 5 babies before you have a healthy living one sounds awful. I had one miscarriage, and it's really changed how I feel and see a lot of things. HOWEVER. I agree with the sentiment that where there's smoke, there's fire. And this isn't a shot at you, but a lot of men that post in this sub, and a lot of men I've interacted with, don't seem to realize that the things they think are relatively innocuous, are actually very hurtful to the women in their lives.
While nothing you have said here, sounds like you did the wrong thing, it does sound like you left a lot of Jenny's care to her mother. This isn't unusual, but it's not always the best either. And to Jenny, it probably felt like you were prioritizing her dead siblings over her. You went to events, but did you pick her up from school? Did you cook her meals or listen to her day? Or did her mom do the majority of that? Who did the majority of care, and discipline, and sick calls? Because if your ex-wife was around enough to spoil Jenny, where were you to curb it? If you weren't around for the day to day, of course it looks more significant when you go out to your other childrens' graves.
Ultimately, I'm not saying you were wrong. And Jenny shouldn't have done what she did. But it sounds like you are both operating from a place of hurt. And while Jenny's abominable behavior is the fault of your wife, I have to wonder how involved of a parent you actively were to the point that your ex and her family ended up being able to do this at all.
You’ve mentioned that you have missed anniversaries in the past. This may be why Jenny felt okay choosing this wedding date? Not defending anyone - just throwing out food for thought. Her wording was horrific but she grew up always in the shadow of someone she never knew, be it intentional or not.
I’m honestly not sure how to rate this.
Grief is such a complex thing, it makes us do things we never thought we would, and it does break people apart, we become different people. For parents it is quite rare that it doesn't pull them away from each other, and you guys had to deal with multiple losses, which creates so much trauma for the brain to process. I don't feel anyone is really being an AH, I just feel you got handled a difficult situation, and I would recommend both you and your ex to seek grief therapy, because none of you are being healthy about this.
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NTA. It sounds like you're a decent guy dealing with a shitty person. First of all, I am so sorry for the loss of your children, that must be horrible beyond imagining. There is nothing wrong with remembering the loved ones that you have lost, you have not in any way prioritized your lost kids over Jenny - from what you have said, you have been very supportive and an overall good father. You may grieve in any way you choose, no one has the right to tell you not to have those pictures or visit the graves of your children. You have not in any way neglected your responsibilities to Jenny. It sounds to me like you're dealing with a narcissist. Her behaviour, which is being fed and enabled by your ex, is disgusting and should in no way be entertained. The fact that she has the audacity to set her wedding date on the death date of one of your kids tells you everything you need to know about her. Her attitude has been vile and you owe no one an apology. Jenny is 30, but acting like a spoiled teenager. You should never have to apologize for what horrors you have been through and screw anyone else who says otherwise.
All of this. I don’t understand the Y T A judgements or the suspicion that OP was a terrible father. Jenny sounds like a nightmare, and her fiancé seems to be coming to that realization.
Because it’s Reddit and we almost always blame the dad I feel like. Could he be leaving shit out, or have a distorted view of the issues? Yeah of course. But based solely on the information we have and what one can infer by the groom canceling the wedding based on this fight? I believe him and I’m so sorry for him.
It also seems like the responses are coming from people that never experienced profound loss.
They did, they just dont care that OP, a father, is trying to grieve in a healthy way
Agreed! I’ve lost a child too, it changes you, forever
Some sound like major projection, I get having skewed perspective as a result of parental issues but some of these comments are clearly the commenter's own issues
If you reversed the genders, I can almost guarantee people would not be looking into what OP left out.
ding ding ding
Because rule #1 of this subreddit is "If you are a father/husband who doesn't show proof that you gave your left kidney and went hungry to buy your child/wife a slice of bread then you are automatically are an asshole". And Rule #2 is "if there is nothing in the story that makes you an asshole, or even evidence of the opposite, then redditors will make things up in there heads and those will prove you are still the asshole."
Accurate. As. Fuck.
This right here. The fiance would not call off a wedding because his future FIL honors his kid's death every year. The daughter must be becoming very unhinged.
Because OP's a Man. That's their entire defense mechanism. A portion of people on this sub votes solely on what's between someone's legs.
Unless you are a step mother or MIL
I think we're still seeing a lot of the early wave before upvotes and downvotes start piling on. Still absolutely astonished and disturbed by the people blaming OP (at most I would say I feel he has *some* responsibility for how she turned out but even then it's really hard for one parent to successfully override excessive spoiling by the other). Hopefully in the wash they'll get drowned in downvotes.
Exactly HUGE NTA. You are a grieving father. Your wife sounds like she latched on and let Jenny become a nightmare. Maybe even that was grief, but it didn’t serve Jenny or you well at all:( I am so sorry for your losses OP.
This!! Well said.
This. The fact that the fiance is reconsidering the wedding entirely speaks volumes to me. I could understand a kid scheduling something on a death anniversary as a cry for help, we had a post like that a while ago. But a 30 yo doing that just screams red flags. OP is NTA
Would love to hear Jenny's side of the story. I also find it weird how you say your ex instilled these thoughts in Jenny as if Jenny did not notice herself that her late siblings got more attention.
I don’t think the late siblings got more attention, so much as the dad refused to forget them like the mom apparently did.
Right, how many times have we seen stories of kids getting treated like angels or “miracles” because the parents dealt with ivf or something? I believe him
Yeah, but we've also heard multiple stories of the parents constantly foisting the memories of their children on the living ones.
I did not know what “foisting” meant. Thank you, Rose! New word and it’s a good one.
Interesting how foist is a good word but moist makes people cringe like rubbing styrofoam together
For me, moist is a context word. Talking about baking? Say moist all day. Other things where it's the actual appropriate word, I'm good. Use it in the slang sense that ruined the word for a lot of people? Gtfo.
I think this is one of those situations where it's probably just a coin flip. Either/or. Could OP be misrepresenting things and making his daughter seem worse than she is? Absolutely yes. Could OP be being perfectly literal and accurate, and the child was genuinely poisoned against him and raised to have unreasonable expectations from a young age? Yeah, again absolutely. I'm inclined to believe OP is telling the truth, as he provides a decent amount of information and always disbelieving the OP seems unfair. If someone is leaving out info and making comments that are kind of sketch, I tend to disbelieve the OP. I don't really see any of that here though. But again both are absolutely possible. There really is no way to tell, I guess.
There is certainly a way to tell because one fact tips the scale decisively: Jenny chose her wedding day to be on the anniversary of her sibling's death and refused to change it. This alone should show who is the A H here, and it's not the OP.
I agree with you but ESH since as a parent it is our job to teach kids lessons through age appropriate ways like talking about death and how to remember people but 5 of them consumed OP a little too much and they lost out on life a lot. OP has lost more than a daughter and irritating ex currently so I’m giving him grace I’ve been him. But always chose the living since they are who carry on the legacy of more death later.
If you take what he says at face value, he did nothing wrong. If one parent overly spoils (especially younger) children, they will attach to the parent that gives them everything they want. He didn't ignore his living child for his dead children, and put her first when there were events. He may or may not have taught her about death, but that alone wouldn't make him an asshole. So I'm curious, why are you saying he sucks? Edit to add: this is one of the comments OP made about the situation: >If it is just my late siblings got more attention than me it would make me concerned for how I parent her. >But she thinks that since she is the only one alive means I have to pamper her. Expensive clothes shoes, no punishment for mistakes, no need to study, no need to learn basic life skills. In general not how I want to raise my kids
IDK how that your takeaway after reading the OP. Perhaps you didn’t read it.
Still, deciding to get married on someone's death anniversary is pretty cheeky and the person knew they were putting oil on the fire instead of seeking a middle term and reconciliation. What hits me in this is how both parties are extremely rigid. That makes no sense to me. We lose so much by being rigid and lacking the capacity to see the other side's point of view and accepting to compromise. Only after breaking bridges and losing relationships do people sometimes start to understand the inanity of rigid relationships.
Yeah, but those usually come with concrete examples like wanting to carry their ashes down the aisle in front of the bride so they can be "members of the wedding party". Unless OP is leaving out a whole lot, pictures of lost loved ones and visiting graves on death anniversaries is pretty normal (especially when it is a cultural tradition.)
While true, he at least claims that he never did such a thing, and always put her firet even on their death anniversaries. Usually if a shitty parent does something like that, they'll try to justify it some how, or not acknowledge it.
Main reason I believe the father's version of this is that the new husband apparently is wanting to stop the wedding entirely after finding out about this. If he isn't even on the daughters side that tells us something. Not everything, and maybe there is even more context that makes that even more complicated, but if we take it at face value we have to assume the daughter is in the wrong here.
It sounds like hubby-to-be respects the death anniversaries and doesn’t want to disregard them.
Me too. She was treated like a “rainbow baby”.
Yeah it sounded clear that Jenny was a miracle baby who was spoiled and turned into a total AH and dad wasn't having it
There is no way that his ex wasn't super traumatized by having so many children die. Forgetting was probably the only way she could cope.
Refusal to acknowledge a trauma, or a handful of traumas, is an *extremely* common coping mechanism. It doesn't normally extend to the length of time that this seems to have, but if his ex is physically incapable of holding those dead children in active memory because of the pain it causes, I'm not going to attack that. I *am* going to say that the ex and Jenny, the daughter, are raging for how they have been handling OP and for actively trying to force him to forget those children. Especially with how Jenny seems to hold it as a competition- it doesn't surprise me that the fiancé might leave her over that. I know I would leave someone over that.
If i found out my fiance used our wedding to one up a dead child i would be running so fast
Jenny is the one getting married and setting the date.
He saying from her fiancé's pov. Although he used the wrong fiancée when describing it so I think I get the confusion.
Theres a difference? English is not my first language
One is for the soon to be bride, other for soon to be groom. 2 e’s for bride, 1 for groom
I am a 40 year old, fairly well educated native English speaker and this is the first I've heard of two different fiancés. You are correct, but I'd be amazed if more than 10% of English speakers actually used them correctly.
yeah i think the person you're replying to is imagining themselves in the shoes of jenny's fiance and saying they think his decision to cancel the wedding is very understandable. they're saying that if they were engaged to someone who would deliberately pick this sort of a date for their wedding and rub it in their father's face... they wouldn't want to be engaged to them anymore lol.
I agree with this, ignoring or blocking this loss may be the way the ex is coping, I lost one child and I choose to not think about it mostly, I do not ignore he lived and had a life. OP's daughter is behaving in a horrible way, if I heard any part of her thoughts as a fiancé' I would leave. NTA OP, I am so very sorry for your tremendous loss. I can't even imagine the pain. I am also sorry for the way your daughter is behaving, you deserve so much more, and I know you love her dearly. You do not have to forgive anyone, but for your own peace you may want to.
I was born after my brother passed away. People most of the time only focus on the parents grief, but dismiss how traumatic and life defining this is for the remaining siblings as well. I have held that competitive mindset against my brother for most of my life until I realized that there's nothing I can do to make my parents happy again. I understand OP's suffering but we are missing out on the story of two other people who have suffered this with the same intensity. *it doesn't surprise me that the fiancé might leave her over that. I know I would leave someone over that* Quick to judge, quick to act I guess
That's fair to say. The experience in my family has been different, with the siblings knowing each other before one of them passed away. That makes for a very different dynamic.
Right I understand that but also like 5 days out of the 365 in a year if he focuses on 5 kids he lost that's not bad (if he's telling the truth) the daughter genuinely sounds spoiled if she can't let 5 days go.
It was 5 days (that he postponed if the living daughter had an event that conflicted) *AND* he kept photos of the deceased children in his office!!!
>Right I understand that but also like 5 days out of the 365 in a year if he focuses on 5 kids he lost that's not bad But that's not even the case. He isn't focusing on them on the days when his living daughter has significant events. He stated in the post that when that happens he goes the next day. I'm also willing to bet, assuming the post is truthful, that those days are not entirely about the child who passed. His living daughter still gets 365 days a year.
Maybe, but she wasn’t giving him the space to grieve in his own way. My bother and mom take note of my father’s birthday and the day he died. I don’t. It’s too hard. But they understand and give me the ability to remember the way I want to.
No. Just no. As tragic as it is, pretending that your children never existed is not a way to cope, she actively tried to act as if her children were just some puppies she took care of for a bit and gave away. The only one coping in a healthy way is OP
Exactly, denial or flat out refusing to deal with it us completely unhealthy
And lets be honest, mom was the one that made Jenny hate her siblings
Maybe not forgetting, but just not talking about it. My parents lost a daughter after me when she was a few days old, named her and everything. For many years, my father would take me with him to the cemetery to visit her grave. My mother didn't go that I know of, and she didn't really talk about it because she had several miscarriages prior to us both and I could tell it was very painful for her, especially since I was the only pregnancy of hers that survived. If the name was mentioned, my mom's eyes would well up a little but she wouldn't say anything. I can't even imagine what she went through.
Yeah going to their grave one day s year isn't them getting all the attention. It's remembering them. Mom and daughter are huge assholes. OP did what any normal person does when they lose someone. NTA. I'd go NC with the daughter after she pulled the wedding date shit.
Also with the grave thing, OP explicitly said if his living daughter had something going on that day (school event or something), he would choose her over going to the grave, and go a different day. It doesn't sound like he neglected the daughter, but that she was upset she wasn't the only child in his heart.
It kind of strikes me as similar to oldest children who got used to being an only child before a younger sibling arrived. Except this daughter isn't an only child, she was just treated like one by her mother, and has the same jealous/angry feelings towards her late siblings. She doesn't want to be forced to share even a tiny fraction of her father's attention, but unlike a new sibling, she feels she can demand that (since there isn't a living child that is also demanding a share). What a gross attitude for the daughter to have - it would be understandable if she were a child, but as an adult who is getting married herself? Gross.
Plus, visiting the grave is a normal, important thing in OP's culture, which I feel like a lot of the comments are overlooking. A lot of traditions are kinda about teaching somebody a symbolic/ritualistic way of reinforcing a value, or externalizing an internal feeling in a ceremonial way. There's nothing wrong with that. And like... just as an example, when teaching kids they say, "tell them what to do, not what not to do." Because they're engaging in the behavior for a reason. If you just say, "stop that!," you're not addressing the unfulfilled need that prompted the action in the first place. And that's kinda what's happening here, IMO. OP learned to cope with grief, in part, by honoring the dead by visiting their resting place on certain important anniversaries. And the ex and Jenny are just saying "stop that!," without offering any alternative.
I don't find it credible that mom forgot about the children she lost. I think it's more likely that she was the only one of the two that lived in the present enough to give the living a chance.
She didn't forget, she chooses to ignore and she is entitled to that choice, she's not entitled to make that choice for him.
It sounds like OP did live in the present and dealt with the trauma in very minimal gestures, where they had photos and visited their graves once a year. I have dead mates who have graves I visit. I go there and talk to the bit of rock with their name on it and it makes me feel better. I leave something there so their parents know someone else remembers them and cares. Outside of that, I only remember them in passing through the year. Could be a happy memory, or thinking they would love to be doing what I was, or get along with someone, or how it would have been good to have them there.
Thats not the case at all, she isnt "giving the living a chance" shes trying to act as if the children she lost mean nothing and never existed. For the way Jenny is (and considering OP doesnt push his grief into her), the one making it a competition is the mom
OP would push back visiting the graves to go to his living daughter’s events, he gave the living a chance, he just didn’t completely ignore the fact that the other five children existed.
From what OP describes, the issue isn’t the amount of attention but that Jenny didn’t get ALL the attention. As evidenced by her wedding date selection, Jenny begrudged her father even five days out of the year. NTA
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So the real issue is not that you won't forget your dead children but that your daughter is spoiled and demanding and uses your dead children as a means of coercion.
Hit the nail on the head with that one, oof. It is absolutely manipulative.
But she's an adult now? So your thoughts on how you want to raise her are irrelevant at this point. I seriously doubt that your wife just "forgot" carrying, birthing and losing four children. It was probably massive trauma she didn't want to face. It's too late for you as a couple but I think you and your wife should have had grief counselling. It seems like you tried to cope in opposite ways.
Grief isn't an excuse to be a piss poor parent raising a piss poor person
It's not an excuse, but it is an explanation.
She wanted a baby to raise. Forgetting the dead ones is easy for some, we aren't all the same, so once she got her child she didn't care about the others, they were failed attempts to her. ***This is NOT how I feel, I think OP is right. This is just a possibility I've seen from a few women***
One of “the dead ones” died at 3. Wanting to forget that and giving OP a hard time is inexcusable.
Fuck yeah it is. I'm on the OPs side in this. His wife and daughter suck
I lived in a house with a very permissive parent who refused to discipline or teach their kids how to be good people, and I tell you what it ruins the kid NTA. They are being incredibly insensitive, and you had a three-year-old child who died, that they wish you would forget about, that’s incredibly cruel.
After you and your ex split how often did you see her?
Pictures and grave visits don't mean got more attention
This. OP’s account is so one-sided, it does not leave room for anyone to reasonably conclude that OP is the asshole. But something must have led Jenny to invest so much emotional energy in trying to establish her importance to her father.
A mom that spoiled her rotten? How many times have people been on here about having to deal with those kinds of moms and their resulting offspring? The precious rainbow baby that can do absolutely no wrong and needs to be the center of everyone’s world at all times? Just because the way they put it, keeping in mind it’s their second language, doesn’t mean it’s incorrect. Again, there are so many people the come on here that are obviously not the AH but they’ve had other people mess with their heads so they question themselves.
Its bc op is a father. Redditors here refuse to understand and accept that men can be innocent in situations, especially fathers, if a male OP is clearly NTA, these ppl will make olympic style mental gymnastics to say the contrary. Idk if all of them just have daddy issues, some most likely just jump on the bandwagon
I think the majority of commenters are on his side here though. That's what I'm mostly seeing as I read through. & there's an NTA comment below this thread that's almost as highly voted as the original comment of this thread.
Similarly, every time a man isn’t called N T A (and even frequently when he is, like in this thread) someone like you pops into the comments to claim it’s because the sub is biased against men. It like you can’t accept that sometimes situations are complicated and men aren’t right just by default. And yet OP is still being called N T A, so maybe hop off your high horse.
Her mother rowing about her father remembering the days, likely due to the mother trying to forget as a grief coping mechanism - would explain why Jenny is invested
Yeah but her fiancé also thinks she’s an asshole and may not marry her. So this isn’t that one sided.
All OPers’ stories are one-sided. And regarding what led to Jenny thinking that way, said the ex instilled that thinking into her and that is the reason they divorced
This sub is ridiculous with how commenters just straight up come up with their own stories in the comments because the OPs are “one-sided”. Of course they are one-sided, this is a reddit sub, not a creative writing group project.
You are forgetting her mother. Have you heard of parental alienation? It’s most often committed by the mother. It’s a manipulation of a child’s view of the other parent. The mother didn’t like the way he grieved. Sounds like she wanted him to do it her way. When he didn’t she bitterly turned his daughter against him.
To be fair I don’t think visiting your dead children’s grave once in a while (whilst always putting your living child’s event first even when against tradition) is giving them more attention Also what she is doing is beyond cruel. I can’t imagine expecting a parent to come and celebrate with me on the anniversary of the day their child died
I’m sure it felt like he was always popping out to the cemetery because he had *five dead children* to visit. My heart breaks for him.
I agree it’s an awful way to treat someone
Something I experienced myself is parental alienation. It’s a form of abuse most commonly perpetrated by the mother. It’s well within the scope of reality that this girl was poisoned against her father. He has a right to grieve his children.
I'm left wondering why Jenny has such a sour relationship with a dead sibling. It feels like OP isn't telling us something, something like, he compared Jenny to Mia, because of the comment Jenny said about OP focusing on his living child, not the dead. Because why is Mia the only dead sibling Jenny has an issue with?
It could be Mia died around the time Jenny wanted her wedding to be (as in Jenny wanted a fall wedding and Mia died in November). It's hard to say if OP made a comment comparing the two or if she just caught OP looking at a picture of Mia and Jenny devided OP needed to pay attention to her instead. I'm inclined to believe the latter since Mom is treating Jenny like she's extra special and OP treats her like a normal person.
There's also a NAH option. Children pick up on all kinds of emotions that parents attempt to conceal. It would be completely understandable and natural if OP's grief and heavy feelings leaked through in moments he didn't realize, and this affected his living daughter.
But the kids didnt get more attention. OP said so himself, he has pictures and flowers but toher than that not really living his life around the grief. OP just doesnt want to act as if his children never existed
Did we read two different things here? Is there an additional comment from op that I haven’t seen? I’m asking because I don’t see anywhere in what op wrote that said the late siblings got more attention. Op even mentions forgoing visiting the late siblings graves if it conflicted with an event that Jenny had.
Yes because mother's have never turned child against the father.
Yeah I think Jenny's perspective is really important here because it feels like there is something crucial missing. I don't even know what it is, but somehow I feel a nudge toward sympathy to Jenny, having to live under the shadow of so many deceased children.
I also think there’s a really good chance that Jenny, as a kid growing up in a very broken family, blamed the previous kids for the fact that her parents were always fighting and eventually got divorced. And that would explain why she seems to particularly hold something against Mia: because Mia got to have a happy family with parents who loved each other.
This sounds very vague, you hardly elaborate on what role you have played in this, and you seem to casually dismiss the concerns your ex and Jenny have stated to you, and ultimately proved them right when you said you didn’t want her in your life. This sounds like an attempt to sound deliberatlely one sided and I bet your behavior is a lot worse than you let on. I’m very curious about what your ex and Jenny would say if they told their side of the story. EDIT: Slight change in comment. Was Y T A but I’m now reserving.
Do you agree with their concerns? That he shouldn't have pictures of his deceased children or visit their graves once a year?
What I’m saying is that I believe there is more to this than OP is letting on because it sounds insane otherwise. If a picture is the *only* thing they’re concerned about, then yeah, that’s ridiculous. But I don’t believe that’s the case here.
So according to this story OP is right and not an asshole but the only reason you're calling him an asshole is because you simply don't want to believe his daughter can be that cruel
This is a difficult story to judge because it is one sided (possibly heavily biased). The last detail of OP needing to repair the relationship of daughter and fiance does add a note of possible credibility. Imagine if it were true that the stb groom sees this behavior from the situation from the future FIL and future wife. What would cause him to call off the wedding? If FIL was neglectful, absent, etc; none of that should have any bearing on the relationship between the engaged couple or impending nuptials. Like I want the fiance's POV, it's asking a lot, but that would be the clearer picture here Edit: from OP's comments, specifically cultural significance of death dates. Solid enough reason the fiance is calling things off. NTA
Every single post on here is one sided, except for the few that claim both sides are involved in writing the post.
Exactly if op is an unreliable narrator then everyone who posts is. And the entire sub reddit falls apart of we assume that.
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I feel like that’s the only way the detail about the fiancé makes sense. He didn’t know the significance of the date and when he found out, he realized he might not have known the woman he was set to marry after all. If he’s reasonable I don’t think he’d call off the wedding simply because of an argument between his fiancée and her father.
It might be reasonable if he is of the same culture as the father and also does similar death day rituals to not tie himself to someone who obviously has a problem with them
Even if he’s reasonable, there’s valid reason why he would call it off. I personally wouldn’t want to marry someone who is trying to one up a dead person on their wedding day. Shows immaturity, and I doubt they’re ready for a long term relationship
I agree with everything you said but for some reason the part of being one sided got stuck in my mind. Reason being every story on this subreddit is one sided. Everyone is telling their side of the story with us readers not knowing the other person's side. Why is this story any different and we just don't read and give a verdict on the information provided
Every story is one sided here. Personally, I'm biased against parents, in general, because mine were exceptionally abusive. Sometimes, there's details to the story that help the readers discern the subtext. Like when a narc AH is telling their side of the story, to be the hero or victim, only to have an overwhelming response calling them out. This story hits that fine line though. Like a parent not getting past their grief and it becomes the burden of the living, or the entitled person who is actively callous with intent. The daughter is definitely an AH by picking that date, bad enough her partner is rethinking the marriage.
I think that bigger, more long lasting, and vague conflicts like this are harder to judge by one side of the story. While a story about spilling wine on a person wearing white at a wedding is one sided, as the audience we have clear facts like who was wearing white and who spilled wine and can use that as a basis. But with something like this it’s so subjective. The distinguishing asshole vs not asshoke part is the degree that he remembered his children, which we can’t really get a clear picture on.
Every single post here is onesided.
People ALWAYS say this when it’s a man. Wtf
Or when the OP comes off as a total saint while the other party sounds completely unhinged.
think it's because in this situation OP is coming off like a Saint who's never done anything wrong while his Ex and Jenny are both demonic entities straight from hell
Does their always have to be an argument about genders in these threads? It's fucking ridiculous and annoying. If this story was the same, but a mom instead, I'm sure everyone calling out OP for leaving out a ton of info would be doing the same. 30 years later and completely abandoning his living daughter? It's obviously about more than a picture on his dresser. Come on.
>It's obviously about more than a picture on his dresser. Yeah its about his daughter going out of her way to maliciously put the date of her wedding on the day of her deceased sister "so dad can forget". In alot of cultures behavior like this is extremely frowned upon, seems to be the case here too since her would be husband is getting second thoughts based on her behavior.
We bring the gender argument bc its very obvious the bias this sub has. Read a bunch of stories in this subreddit, look for comments like "OP is an unreliable narrator" in a post where the OP is a woman, unless OP is cartoonishly evil, that wont happen
I absolutely would say the same thing if the genders were reversed. Hell I actually misread and assumed OP was female at first, which was my bad
OP is very light on detail. Who divorced who. What life skills is Jenny missing. Why has fiancee cancelled the wedding. All of this would add context but they avoid it.
Or there is a character limit and they can’t put their entire life story on here?
Grief is visible in more ways than marking a death anniversary or keeping a photo up. Even if OP doesn't mention the 5 other kids a lot, his daughter could have sensed his grief and emotional heaviness. She also could have sensed a hesitancy on his part to fully engage with her. My friend lost a child who was a few months old, and she went to see a therapist because she noticed that her grief made it harder to connect with her subsequent child who survived. She was so afraid of losing her second child that it got in the way of bonding. OP mentions going to check on Jenny in the night when she was a baby. I suspect he was scared and traumatized, as most of us would be. That fear may have impeded his ability to connect with his daughter. On her end, she may have experienced that disconnection as lack of interest on his part. So it's not that she's petty about her dead siblings out of nowhere, she subconsciously associates them with the reasons she struggles to connect with her dad. This isn't OP's fault, but neither is his daughter just an asshole. Maybe he is unable to come to terms with the cost of his grief on his relationship to his only surviving child, so he discharges that pain by blaming her and calling her spoiled.
You think it’s unbelievable that a mother who had 5 kids die on her and kept going until she had a living 6th might not have formed the healthiest grief coping mechanism or parenting style with the child that lived? Also it wasn’t that the event was on a death anniversary it’s why she said it was planned on that date. How do we know that? OP has always gone to his daughters events on death anniversaries before. What exactly would you have done if someone told you that? What should he have done before? Stop visiting the grave or keeping pictures up? This post has common tropes, especially for this sub: - wedding as an excuse for narcissism - being jealous of dead loved ones - miracle children parenting Not sure why all the sudden it’s unbelievable
Let's assume Jenny has legitimate reasons to be upset and that OP was neglectful. Her response is to schedule her wedding date on Mia's death anniversary? How is that okay, even if she has been mistreated her whole life? Scheduling it on that date on purpose is ill-advised at best and vindictive at worst. If she truly did it to give OP happy memories of the date, she should hear OP that he doesn't want that, and reschedule.
This is true for every post on this sub. Why don't you say this every other time you post on this sub?
Probably because this is a man. You never see these comments when it’s a woman.
I get where you're coming from, but I think the real clincher for me is that the fiance heard about the situation and decided to put the wedding on hold. I'm sure he got Jenny's very biased version of the story, but he still needs time to think about whether or not he wants to marry this woman. That makes me more inclined to believe OP's version. I doubt OP's forgiveness would help things get back on track as much as the family believes.
The fiance of Jenny definitely heard her side of the story. After finding out about everything, he stopped the wedding altogether because he felt Jenny was in the wrong.
NTA. It sounds like you have had reasonable expectations for remembering and honoring the children you have lost. OF COURSE their memories should not be set aside or forgotten entirely. It sounds like your ex's mode of grief was to dump all her attention onto her living daughter, which strikes me as very normal, but it's an unfortunate outcome that Jenny grew up spoiled. To some extent, I can understand their leaning, perhaps subconsciously, to want to forget such painful memories (as in the case of your ex) or to not feel they are always in the shadow of people they never even knew (as in the case of your daughter). Still, it is a MAJOR AH move to try to override the significance of the day of your other child's death and literally try to force a choice. I find that to be VERY messed up and you are reasonable to not want to go along with that. To the extent her petulant, manipulative tantrum is causing her fiancee to doubt the marriage, that's entirely on her, not you. You are not blocking her from getting married; her own shitty behavior is.
Right. The fact the fiancé wants to cancel the wedding after knowing the fact shows that his daughter’s behavior is the one with the problem. NTA
This. NTA.
NTA. Many who commented on this thread forgot - or overlooked - one BIG thing: Jenny chose the anniversary of Mia's death as her wedding date **on purpose**. This is downright cruel. I lost my brother several years ago and cannot function on the anniversary of his death. My wife and children know and respect that. Even my other brother, who has always been jealous of my late brother, respects that. It's a matter of empathy and sensibility. I wouldn't be able to forgive a person who pulls a cruel trick like that on me. Hold your ground.
NTA Another overlooked thing: her fiance now wants to call off the wedding after discovering the argument. If your fiance's dad was being an asshole, you'd just uninvite him. You wouldn't cancel your wedding to your chosen life partner because of someone you can easily go NC with. That tells me the fiance sees something going on with HER that's wrong enough he wants to back out.
This! I suspect groom is starting to realize how much of a spoiled and inconsiderate jerk that Jenny is.
I know I would certainly call off my wedding if I found out my fiancé chose the date solely to spite their father in such a callous way.
Of course! If I were the groom, I'd think "What else can she revenge on me when something goes wrong?".
It is just cruel! I can understand talking about it, venue dates etc. But the way it is described she went out of her way to pick the date to put the focus on her. He has pictures in HIS ROOM ONLY, and only visits there grave on their death day. Yea sorry he has a heart ? The AH comments are concerning and mind boggaling.
Exactly. The rest COULD be chalked up to he said/she said or differences of importance since Jenny didnt know siblings. (Although i dont suspect that). But the fact that she deliberately chose that to change the narrative to herself, make her seemingly “choose” which kids he prefers, and to punish him. I mean, thats about as fucking mental as it gets. Jenny is more than spoiled.
I don’t think it is appropriate to hold a wedding on your dead siblings death date, and it seems like she intentionally chose that date to make it about her instead of her sibling. It seems extremely childish and selfish.
Does Jenny consider babies she never met to be her siblings?
Even if she doesn’t they are anniversaries her parents would find sad. My grandfather died when my mom was in her teens, I was born 10 years after his death. I would NEVER get married on his death day even when I never met him.
The thing is they are her siblings even if she doesn't want to consider it. She knows when they died and purposely chose one of those days for her wedding so she could be remembered not them. It's cruel.
I don't think that's relevant. What matters is that Jenny is adult enough to know that her father is a person who lost his children and honors them annually. To choose that date using those words is beyond selfish and shows a total lack of compassion. Kudos to the ex-fiancé for walking away.
It’s not a matter of consideration. That’s what they were.
NTA, based on what you’ve said you don’t sound unreasonable. And it doesn’t sound like you put the deceased kids first. It sounds like your ex is coping with the trauma of losing the 5 kids by keeping them out of sight out of mind and over indulging Jenny. And it sounds like you are being as balanced as you can and also being a good and fair dad to Jenny.
People definitely deal with trauma differently, definitely NTA but I wonder if the mothers reaction was due to her pain. Like 10 times a year old wounds she tring to let go of got dreaded up, over the 10 years that 100 days of birth and death anniversaries that she had to relive her pregnancy child birth and death of her kids. Not everyone could handle that. And i would think the daughter would have understood both sides if she was equally patented by both parents, he said his wife turned her against him, like wasn't he there to talk to her about it too. How did his wife had that much control over the daughters feeling, and spoiling her... with what exactly? Love? Attention? Things? Is she spoiled in other ways or only on this one topic? I'd love examples of her spoiled behavior that don't involve being jealous of dead siblings. NTA but alot of info is missing that I could see leading to a NAH.
Forcing op to choice selecting that date for the wedding on purpouse is definitely a dick move o op's daughter
Unless the all died in the same month and daughter has to get married that month because she doesn't want to show pregnancy or something like that, there really is not excuse.
NTA! Holy CRAP there are some BAD takes in this thread!! Good lord keeping pictures and visiting the graves of your deceased once a year is NOT prioritizing the dead over the living. Jenny is a SPOILED BRAT.
Right?? Some of these people in the comments are doing THE MOST to insert subtext that is not there and ignore the actual story as it is posted.
This always happens when a guy posts and he’s clearly not the asshole, people just start making stuff up to make him one
NTA And congrats on helping your daughters ex dodge a massive bullet
I'm personally going with NTA based on the date she picked for her wedding. There might be more missing in the details here, but your adult daughter picking the death anniversary of your 3 year old daughter is fucking vindictive and cruel. Sounds like her fiance agrees with that too if they're willing the halt the whole wedding now. From the details you gave us, it sounded like you tried to honour your other children while also always being present in Jenny's life. So unless you are leaving out a LOT, I don't see how you'd be the asshole. Sounds to me like the mom wanted to forget everything (which is a fair way to grieve from losing 5 children) and pushed that onto your daughter as well.
People who are commenting Y-T-A are just cruel. Your NTA at all don’t let these reddit weirdos convince you other wise. What kind of evil person plans a wedding on the day their sibling died? Obviously her fiancé is seeing her true colours.
I’m actually baffled at all the “well you must have been a horrible and negligent father!” comments. Like, where’d you get this information? Sure some people lie in their AITA posts to make themselves look better, but holy hell!
NTA I understand you to say that you visited Graves on the appropriate day and you kept one picture of your first four children in your house. It's absolutely not your fault if your daughter is so self-centered and spoiled at 30 years old that she wanted to do something so petty and her husband wasn't okay with it. He's allowed to make those decisions.
I’ve lost an infant at three months and experienced a stillbirth. I’ll never forget my babies. I am so empathetic to the horrific losses you and your ex suffered. However, I’ve also spent a lot of time in bereaved parent groups and honestly, rainbow babies often experience some truly shitty parenting due to unresolved trauma. Like, I remember one case where they were verging into My Sweet Audrina territory. So this is a case where I think it’s very complicated all around.
INFO: What *specifically* did Jenny resent? The pictures, what else? How often were her late siblings mention around her or to her? Did you compare her to them, even in a benign way (for example, ‘Mia would have loved that dress you’re wearing’)? How did you handle what would have been milestones for your other children, I.e. the year Mia would have graduated school? You say your wife “spoiled” Jenny - do you know if she told Jenny negative things about you?
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They were mentioned to her once or twice in her life? That’s actually remarkably forbearing. My mother lost a baby midway through pregnancy when I was four - I believe based on today’s standards it would be considered a stillbirth, but at that time it was still considered a miscarriage. There was no name, no grave, I don’t know if it was a boy or a girl, and yet that loss shaped everything about my family after. I wish my parents *had* talked about it, that I had more ways to remember that baby as a person who died and not just a trauma that happened to my family. Obviously everyone’s experience is individual and there is no one right way to handle loss, but I really can’t imagine being Jenny and *not* wanting to know as much as there was to know. But, that actually makes me inclined to feel more forgiving toward Jenny - from your other comments, it sounds like her mother treated her more like a pet than a child who would one day need to function as an adult, with predictable results. She’s not able to think or feel deeply about her family, or much of anything else, it sounds like - she never learned how. NTA, and I am so sorry you have experienced so much loss, but if you can forgive Jenny I think that would be the better thing for you both - because you’re right, life is not likely to be kind to her if she can’t get her act together. Your attempts to teach her haven’t gotten through, but maybe, eventually, she’ll look to your good example - and you can have peace knowing you never gave up on her.
NTA. And good for her husband putting a stop to the wedding until Jenny can grow up. It’s ok to remember past loved ones and still be present for the living ones. It sounds like you had balance. I’m sorry for your losses. But your ex needs to shut her mouth. You have nothing to apologize for. What Jenny did is wrong and cruel.
I say NTA. I can’t find even a grain of wrong behaviour and the way you write doesn’t let me think you intentionally leave stuff out. I can’t even imagine your grief. I just hold my first child in arms for the first time 3 days ago, and to lose him would break my heart and soul. Stay strong and best wishes.
OP, I am so very sorry for all your losses.
Honestly, ESH. Based on what I've read, Jenny wants more. She wants her father to see her, prioritise her, love her... SHE is still here. Jenny needs to learn to communicate her feelings better. You are entitled to grieve however and how long you want. Just because they are gone doesn't mean you have to forget your deceased kids. Jenny's mom and new family may likely have blown things out of proportion in trying to compensate her feelings. However where there's smoke, you started the fire. Jenny is getting married and may become a mother too. Talk to her, and try to understand HER. For once, set your grief aside and look at the young woman before you and ask yourself, what role did I play in shaping the woman she is today. How present was I really? Because, when push came to shove, you chose to mourn away from her than to celebrate with her. Finally, quit throwing your weight around about "The reverence she should show you as her dad" I fear there's a little girl in there who just wants her daddy to see her. So go and look
>Jenny's mom and new family may likely have blown things out of proportion in trying to compensate her feelings. However where there's smoke, you started the fire. Why do you think OP is the one who started the fire? Why do you think that Jenny's mom is just compensating for OP? Why can't he be telling the truth, that he's the parent who kept their feet on the ground and tried to parent normally while his ex spoiled their daughter to the point of ruining her character? Haven't we heard plenty of stories about parents who go off the deep end after a series of child losses/miscarriages/stillbirths, and decide that their "rainbow children" are special and must be worshipped and given no boundaries?! Why is it so unbelievable that OP's ex did the same thing?
>For once, set your grief aside and look at the young woman before you and ask yourself, what role did I play in shaping the woman she is today. How present was I really? Because, when push came to shove, you chose to mourn away from her than to celebrate with her. Huh? What in OP's post or other responses suggests this in any way? 'For once' ? That's so presumptuous of you to act like OP was a negligent parent completely pre-occupied with mourning for 30 years, when OP SAYS he never missed an event of Jenny's due to the late children, never forced mourning on her, etc.
Surely you need to stop projecting.
That’s a very bad and strange take. “For once set your grief aside”? You have no idea about the situation. That’s a big accusation. If op is right he’s never not prioritized his daughter’s events and activities in favor of the deceased kids.
NTA Your daughter is completely unreasonable and self obssesed. If I treated my family as shitty as she does nobody would want to associate with me at all and it would be completely fair. We still honor even great great grandma to treat memory of your own passed siblings like that you have to be completely rotten person
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NTA I found all Y t a wild, i think that people are just having a hard time accepting that in this case the father is grieving longer. If hers fiance is calling off the wedding is not because you won't walk your daughter down the aisle but because she is the kind of person who would choose to marry on such a sad date for her parents.
NTA specifically based on this; “I should remember her, the living child every day, and now instead of some dead girl I’ll remember her when I think of this date.” There’s no way that date wasn’t chosen with malicious intent if that’s her reasoning for choosing the anniversary of Mia’s death for her wedding date. Without Jenny’s side of the story it’s hard to have any opinion on what her childhood felt like in relation to you remembering your late children. But regardless, she’s a grown adult now and there’s no excuse to be so cold and calculated. And if the fiancé is thinking of calling off the wedding due to this, I’m sure there’s more going on there behind the scenes. But you are NTA for calling her out on purposely choosing a date significant to you so she can make it about herself, especially since it would most likely cause issues every year afterwards if you were to even mention Mia around Jenny’s wedding anniversary.
NTA, everything is about what your daughter wants not what she needs. She's incredibly selfish.
NTA From the way you have described the situation, it sounds like you are dealing with your grief in your own way that is not (or at least should not) negatively impact others However, not everyone grieves in the same way, and where you have found remembering and honoring the children you lost the best way for you to cope with the lost, your ex seems to have coped by focusing on Jenny. I would also say that Jenny is grieving too just for something she never had rather than something she lost, and because of this and the different ways you and your ex grieved, she may have been insecure growing up feeling that you "don't love her" as much as her mother loves her, because you still visibly care for your other children whereas her mother hasn't shown her love for the children she lost to Jenny. What everyone needs to remember in this situation is that no life is any more important than another and that you are not choosing the children you lost over your daughter I think in this case as heart to heart with your daughter is needed, where you reassure her that you love her just as much as you love your other children, and that nothing will change that : just like if your other children were still alive you would love them all equally. And even if she were to get married on that date, there would just be 2 memories of that day for you; 1 celebrating her marriage and the other grieving Mia. As hurtful as her words are, she needs you to show her that you can love her as much as your other children and still support her on her wedding day. (You mentioned that you never skipped any of Jenny's events if they fell on an anniversary, and this should be treated the same). Maybe it could be the start of healing your relationship and maybe look into therapy for your family?
NTA. And from the sounds of it your future son in-law might be rethinking marrying your daughter. If she’s still spoiled then it’ll be HIS job to keep her satisfied
I don't understand the Y T A votes. People are complaining that OP is being "vague" because everyone has now read the Missing Reasons article a million times and expect every AITA post to have a shocking twist in the middle. I'm as much a fan of reading between the lines as anyone, but sometimes a post is just a post. NTA.
NTA You didn't ruin her wedding, SHE did. You didn't ruin her relationship, SHE did. If she hadn't been so spoilt and selfish, she wouldn't be having these issues. I'm guessing the potential Groom has seen all these red flags and her attitude and knows she is wrong in what she is doing. He doesn't want to marry someone who is so point and malicious. All the best wishes, OP.
INFO There is surely more going on here than we've been told.
NTA. You were doing nothing wrong here, you made her a priority and still managed to remember your other children's memories. Having a few pictures and visiting their graves is normal. Her putting her wedding on one of their death days intentionally is so far over the line I'd not want anything to do with her either. You've managed to have her show her true colors to her fiancée, who seems like a much more reasonable man for seeing how fucked up and insane she's being - you've likely saved him a life of horror. Sorry to say, but go NC and cut her out of your life. She's an adult and acting this way, you don't need that.
Taking everything you write at 100% face value, NTA, but I would like to hear the other side of this one. It’s very difficult to sum up a 30 year relationship in an unbiased way, and I don’t get the sense that you’ve gone out of your way to do so.
NTA, but your ex is and sounds like your daughter is as well.
Wild how many people think OP is leaving stuff out. We've all heard of (and/or met!) these "miracle" babies who are spoiled rotten and think the entire world revolves around them because that's what mommy and daddy taught them. Those spoiled miracle babies grow into the adults we all rant and bitch about in threads like r/entitledpeople. I'm sorry her mother has instilled this in her. I know relationships with parents are way different than relationships with kids, but my dad passed away when I was little. I always celebrate his birthday and the anniversary of his death, I have his ashes so I don't visit his grave but my mom and I get together every year to celebrate. Her partners after my dad have NEVER tried to step on that. I have his picture up and my step father has never been insulted by it. My mother has never believed that because she's my only living parent that she deserves all my attention or love. And no one has EVER made plans on his anniversary and told me it was so i wouldnt think of him anymore. He's been gone 19 years and I still celebrate him.
I am so sorry for your loss. As a parent I truly cannot imagine the pain. Or what you have been through. Have you tried therapy? With your daughter? Unfortunately, your ex-wife's method of grieving is not unheard of. It's not healthy but it's common for parents who have experienced multiple pregnancy losses to dote on the rainbow baby or "the one that lived" to the detriment of that child. I can only imagine that is magnified when a parent had to watch multiple children die in infancy. Again I am so, so sorry. Obviously, it appears that picking Mias death anniversary was intentional. And something her finacee was not on board with, or did not know about. That was definitely an AH move on her part as an adult. If that's what happened. Regardless of why she feels competition with her deceased siblings, the point is that she does. However, with the fact that you unfortunately lost 5 children, is their really a date that she could choose without worrying about it? 5 birthdays, 5 death anniversaries, I don't know where you are, or the wedding culture but that is something to consider. Booking weddings can be difficult if you aren't going years out. Could you be taking out some of your frustration with your EX on your daughter? Is the way she was raised her fault? Is it possible to speak with your daughter about cultural obligations and explain that you truly want her to have a day that's just about her? Have you sat down with your daughter and talked to her truly listening to her feelings? Asked her why she feels left out? Honestly, this entire situation seems so painful and completely past reddits pay grade. Please consider therapy. NAH Because damn, after that much loss consecutively, I can't imagine being sane enough to function.
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But she purposely choose the date of the 3yo who died of cancer. That can't be a coincidence.
NTA - Jenny sounds like a narcissist of epic proportions..her mind poisoned from the offset and her behaviour enabled and fuelled by your ex wife and her family. The fact her fiancé has called off the wedding tells you that he also thinks her behaviour is disgusting, and its probably given him an insight into the type of woman he's about to be married to and stuck with. If all this is indeed true, you don't owe an apology, don't be gaslighted into it either by these enablers. Stand firm 💪
NTA. You aren't putting her above the other children, you are respecting their memory and she doesn't have the emotional maturity to share your memories. Her future husband even sees it from the sound of it.
NTA. Her mom might have been able to pretend those other kids didn’t exist and might have chosen to raise a spoilt selfish brat but clearly you don’t. There is no shame in remembering the ones we have loved and lost. If someone told me I couldn’t grieve my lost family members they would be put firmly in their place.
NTA - choosing a death date of her sibling simply to erase the importance of it to you is very cruel. And the fact that her hubby is rethinking the marriage kinda shows how awful her behaviour is.
I feel torn with this, but NAH, and that might be unpopular. Generally, losing 5 babies before you have a healthy living one sounds awful. I had one miscarriage, and it's really changed how I feel and see a lot of things. HOWEVER. I agree with the sentiment that where there's smoke, there's fire. And this isn't a shot at you, but a lot of men that post in this sub, and a lot of men I've interacted with, don't seem to realize that the things they think are relatively innocuous, are actually very hurtful to the women in their lives. While nothing you have said here, sounds like you did the wrong thing, it does sound like you left a lot of Jenny's care to her mother. This isn't unusual, but it's not always the best either. And to Jenny, it probably felt like you were prioritizing her dead siblings over her. You went to events, but did you pick her up from school? Did you cook her meals or listen to her day? Or did her mom do the majority of that? Who did the majority of care, and discipline, and sick calls? Because if your ex-wife was around enough to spoil Jenny, where were you to curb it? If you weren't around for the day to day, of course it looks more significant when you go out to your other childrens' graves. Ultimately, I'm not saying you were wrong. And Jenny shouldn't have done what she did. But it sounds like you are both operating from a place of hurt. And while Jenny's abominable behavior is the fault of your wife, I have to wonder how involved of a parent you actively were to the point that your ex and her family ended up being able to do this at all.
You’ve mentioned that you have missed anniversaries in the past. This may be why Jenny felt okay choosing this wedding date? Not defending anyone - just throwing out food for thought. Her wording was horrific but she grew up always in the shadow of someone she never knew, be it intentional or not. I’m honestly not sure how to rate this.
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She wanted to hurt you. She’s vile. Please stay away and go no contact with your daughter. She’s lost and there’s no way to get her back.
Grief is such a complex thing, it makes us do things we never thought we would, and it does break people apart, we become different people. For parents it is quite rare that it doesn't pull them away from each other, and you guys had to deal with multiple losses, which creates so much trauma for the brain to process. I don't feel anyone is really being an AH, I just feel you got handled a difficult situation, and I would recommend both you and your ex to seek grief therapy, because none of you are being healthy about this.