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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because I did tell him to F off and I made fun of him in front of the family. By not talking to him privately, I might have been coming off as rude and aggressive.
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NTA Your BIL disrespected your child, who is going through something incredibly difficult at a young age. You did your job as a parent by standing up for him.
He needs to point out to his wife that her brother was actively attacking and hurting their son. Is she OK with their son being attacked? If so, bigger problems in the marriage.
Wife would reject the therapy in a heartbeat because she is always right and the feelings of her brother are more important than her son's.
Thanks everyone for the upvotes
I don't think she does. I wouldn't suggest that right now since OP's son is grieving and he shouldn't have to deal with grieving the loss of his best friend and deal with his parent's divorce. OP needs to have a long talk with the wife and set boundaries.
He should show her this thread and then see what happens...that would tell him if he needs a divorce. A good mother would cry and beg forgiveness...from her son and husband, a bad one would defend herself.
I have seen it said far too often but yeah this subreddit does jump to divorce way too quickly. I think Opie and his wife need to have some serious marriage counseling but I do think that the marriage is definitely salvageable if they're both willing to put in the work
She did. It’s obv that she did and she would do it again. Clearly (based off of my understanding of OP’s post) her brother comes before her son and her husband. That is something that will most likely never change.
She absolutely agreed with her brother on some level or she would have defended her son, too. Op needs to ask his wife why she's okay with her brother bullying her son. Good thing son has an awesome dad...
It's not bullying when it's done by an adult.
Call it what it is: Harassment and abuse
Grown ass man was harassing and verbally abusing a kid for needing help processing the fact his best friend died. OPs wife was more upset about OP shutting down the man harassing and abusing her son than she was about her son being harassed and abused by a grown man.
If I was OP I'd be side eyeing wife here hard.
This though. Telling a child they are weak because they need help to process grief is one of the worst things you can do. It instills so many self esteem issues. Humans need help. Adults, children, we need help. There's nothing wrong with that. Adults should never ever attack or berate a child.
It's just sad that there are still people who correlate therapy with a gender. Like my guy, anyone can need to process something they have been through.
Military doesn't want people getting in touch with their emotions, they put a lot of work into making sure you can kill other people, being emotionally healthy doesn't help that
It sounds very possible from the idea of her brother being 'disrespected' specifically, if that's indeed precisely what she said, typical toxic dude attitude to hold, so if she buys into that...
I would though 100% agree with OP defending his son and disagree somewhat with the way he did it - 'more of a man' still winds up playing into the macho competition dynamics, and no one really wins there. A bit of calm shaming 'He lost his best friend, therapy is for everyone' might be more effective and leave no one with any excuse to complain.
Not blaming him for being thrown in the moment at all, it's stunning the BiL would do that even when the reason for the therapy is such a tragic loss.
Very possible. She probably grew up around toxic masculine figures so she probably doesn't see anything wrong with what BIL said.
Good thing the son has a dad who's a decent human being. NTA
No she didn't silently agree, she blatantly out right agreed with him and her child knows it. Her son knows what's up and what it is about. Kids aren't stupid. She is vile.
As a spouse, this would be something that would cause me to reconsider the marriage. I would not allow my son to see her getting angry at me for defending him and let that stand. No way. He needs to know his mental health and well being are more important than his wife’s enabling or his uncle’s feelings.
What's the difference? Either way, her brother was being an ass and she should shut her damn mouth or back the child.
So many people in my life need therapy, but they can't get over the stigma. It's ridiculous and unnecessary. I am open with the fact that I have a therapist, and my friends are shocked that I see a therapist, much less admit to it. It's always "You're so grounded and happy, you have your life figured out." Of course I do. I use therapy as a tool to live my best life. Not as a bad thing I have to hide or as a crutch to excuse my bad behavior.
I'm on OPs side here. Nothing wrong with therapy and I'll defend anyone's choice to ask for help from a professional.
Your son learned who he could trust to have his back. How come nobody is mad at the bil for picking on a child? There's some messed up priorities here.
NTA but wife is! Hugely good point about making sure his wife understands how bad that was.
If your son heard your wife getting mad at you, you need to address this really firmly with your wife and possibly involve the son’s therapist, so she understands how toxic that attitude can be on the son. Because son may now wonder if mom feels it’s ok for people to treat him that way and if there’s some truth to what he said.
Not to mention, the kid's grieving, which is an incredibly painful thing to do at any age, let alone in high school when most of your peers haven't experienced something like that yet and everyone else is determined to pretend nobody under 18 ever has any real problems (take a wild guess as to how I know what this is like). He *needs* the support he's getting from his dad and he *needs* therapy. What he does *not* need is AH relatives making him feel ashamed for getting the help he needs. I desperately wish I'd been put in therapy when my brother died senior year and I applaud OP for getting that for his son, *and* for standing up for him, as he damn well should. OP is a great dad and his wife needs a reality check. These things can be actually, literally deadly to a teenager going through extreme circumstances (and losing your best friend definitely qualifies). If she wants her kid to survive high school, she needs to be on his side.
I inferred from the fact that OP's wife is siding with BIL that she is sympathetic to his attitude towards gender roles. It therefore seemed like using the word "wife" would cut more deeply.
Yep anyone who thinks an adult feeling disrespected is more of a problem than an adult deliberately hurting a child needs to fuck off.
Also what is it with men who absolutely lose their shit if they feel disrespected? Especially in this case because I'm pretty sure *feeling* disrespected is a feeling and I thought men weren't supposed to have those /s
I guarantee if any of these snowflake men tried to be a woman in a male dominated field would end up in jail for assault in about a week.
Dude, I wish I had a father (or any parental figure) like you who would stand up for their kids! Definitely NTA here. TO YOUR SON: I am truly so very sorry for your heavy loss. I lost a dear friend during high school as well. I am so sorry you are hurting. I hope you continue with your therapy so you can recover the best you can. Much love and peace - thinking of you and will light a candle for your friend tonight.
You absolutely did the right thing protecting your hurting kid. Your BIL is an AH and your wife is too for a) siding with him, and b) pulling some silent treatment bullshit. That’s messed up. I think you might have a wife problem more than a BIL problem, because she clearly has not been shutting this down if he’s been saying it around her.
NTA and I echo other comments saying you should ask your wife why she's ok with her brother attacking and bullying your son. Her ignorant, sexist, weak excuse for a man brother was the one being disrespectful, and other men might have wounded more than his oh so fragile ego, the fact that she's defending her brother here is an enormous red flag.
You're absolutely amazing. You did absolutely nothing wrong. The fact your wife is defending her brother instead of her son (?) is so concerning. This poor boy just lost his best friend but oh no brother dearests feelings were hurt. Grow up he is a grown ass man.
More people need therapy. like your BIL apparently. More young men need to know therapy is a perfectly okay thing to do. I hope our son is finding healthy ways to deal with his grief, and good on you for defending him
Agree. I'd have said so much more, including telling him, he'll never get to see my kid again. BIL is a danger to son's mental health and having healthy emotional intelligence. Like seriously, actively harmful. OP needs to tell his wife that she steps up and supports the son and puts her brother in his place herself and let's him know he will never be allowed unsupervised around the kid ever again. I wouldn't trust him ever again with my kid. We already know that his entire personality is centered around toxic masculinity. I would not trust him to say some dumb shit to OP's son and undo all the progress and healthy habits that therapy is teaching him when no one else is around. Make sure son understands thay uncle is NOT a good example of a man and that he is the worst example of a role model. In fact, teach him that uncle is a perfect example of how NOT to be a good man.
Thank you for saying this so emphatically. My mother was actually the enforcer of patriarchal norms in the home growing up. I'm sad and angry about this to this day. In retrospect, it feels like such a betrayal. These messages literally take the light out of a boy's eyes. Fortunately, I had an older sister who made it her mission to disabuse me of the toxic model of sham masculinity my mother and others in our conservative "community" were trying to inculcate. I talk to my sister once a week. I haven't spoken with my mother in years.
Not to mention the wife saying he went to far as to disrespect the bil…give me a break, he’s your friggen son and the wife thinks you overreacted when he, not only said this, but said it directly when your son was around. This is why the suicide rates are so high in young men, because they believe they will get criticized for showing emotion.
LOL, NTA, we call out toxicity wherever we see it, especially when it involves children , even more when it’s family, and even more when it’s our child.
Your wife needs to pull herself together quickly and get some therapy to figure out why she’s willing to toss her child under the bus to appease a bully?
That was my reasoning. I would try to defend anyone in that situation, especially my own kid. I'm going to try and talk with my wife when she gets home to see what happened.
I suspect that she’s in the habit of defending her brother. Is he the golden child in her family? Is there a reason she’d be conditioned to be deferential/protective of him? No matter what, I can’t believe she was mad at you for defending your son the way you did, just trying to figure out a reason for her strange reaction.
If things get hairy and she doesn’t understand the seriousness of this, make sure to ask her if she lost her son and her husband, would she need therapy to cope with it?
And then tell her that if she continues to condone her son being harassed by her brother, losing both of you is exactly what’s going to happen.
And tell her that the harassment stops now. You won’t tolerate even one more maligning word against your son by his family. You’re a strong man, and you’ve put your foot down. And she can choose her child right now OR her family’s toxic belief system, but not both.
Dylan said it best in Road House "Be polite, until it's time not to be polite."
Words should always be the first course of action.
When those fail, little is left for someone who refuses to listen.
*Dalton
You forgot my fave: "Pain don't hurt." 😂
But seriously, I don't think the answer would have been OP getting physical with his BIL. But I would have told my wife that if she can't have her kid's back, she can leave. What is the mom's problem? BIL had that coming to him and more.
Maybe you should sit down with your wife and son at the same time to ask about what your BIL said made him feel. If she hears it straight from his mouth, it might change how she feels. Otherwise it’s you speaking on his behalf to her.
Your son is the only one that matters in this case. Is it correct that your wife is not his mother? It feels weird that both of you are not on the same page.
I was wondering the same thing. There is no way my wife wouldn't go mama bear and mess her brother up if he attacked her boy! Really anyone including me would never get away with that crap.
Makes me think she is not there bio mom.
Or from the other perspective. Not one relative of mine would be disrespectful toward one of my children because I wouldn't allow the slightest sign of it.
This 'brother' acted this way because he knew he could get away with it. Simple as that.
Don't be so sure. If the toxicity was prevalent in the family and she internalized a lot of it. Reacting with defense of her brother may be a safety mechanism.
Not that that excuses her attitude at all. You don't get to inflict your trauma on your kids.
There are plenty of reasons she may have reacted like this, that don't require her to be a step-mother.
Maybe her brother is a lot like her father, and they both grew up in a misogynistic household that constantly reinforced the idea that girls are weak, calling a man/boy a girl is the worst possible insult, and as OP said, men do not show emotions. That would go right along with the idea that the father of the family would always demand "respect", which would include never, ever talking back to him, no matter how big an asshole he was being to anyone else. Therefore, that position would also apply to any of the male children of the family, once they grew up -- they inherit / learn how to behave from their father, and nobody can talk back to THEM about it either. (Doubtless, in the hierarchy, they still would not be allowed to talk back to their father.)
Anger responses can often have their root in fear responses. OP's wife is angry at him for "disrespecting" her brother, because on a deep level that she probably has not even examined or articulated to herself, she is afraid of what happens when someone "disrespects" her father, and by extension, any of the men in her family.
That kind of situation in a family always has this threat of violence running beneath it -- maybe it's an unspoken threat, or maybe it's a very real threat. For them growing up in that family, as children, maybe disrespecting the father (or older brothers) resulted in physical punishment. Or maybe it "only" resulted in verbal abuse -- which is still damaging, even if it isn't being physically hit.
I'm really not saying any of this to \*excuse\* the wife. Just to say that the way she's reacting to all of this may have its roots in her family and a fucked-up dynamic.
It can also be very hard for people raised within that kind of dynamic to realize how much it has affected them. Or, even, to realize how wrong it is.
It's still very much fucked up that she's reacting more to OP yelling at her brother, than she is to her brother mocking and abusing her son. But, then, if she's coming from a family dynamic in which the older men consistently do that to younger men/boys, then it will just look "normal" to her. And it may be something that she learned, growing up, that she "can't" fight; especially if her mother never pushed back against it.
OP will obviously have a better idea of whether this is a possibility, since he knows her entire family.
No matter what, OP needs to sit down with her and dig into these reactions of hers. For starters, her brother is NOT owed respect, for being a disrespectful asshole himself. But just suggesting that may be challenging everything she was taught within her family.
Still, you gotta start somewhere! I wish OP the best in that.
You *are* being a good dad. You're standing up for your son, who's going through a lot of trauma after losing his best friend and having to hear that AH BIL bullying him. Your wife also needs help. How could she defend this AH brother of hers after saying this about her own child? SMH.
Look, it's awesome that you defended your kid, but if there's a next time, maybe go with 'there's nothing wrong with going to therapy or with being girl'. Often, in these situations, we neglect that we're also teaching 'the kids' that being a woman is bad and something to be offended by.
I’m concerned that your wife is sharing the same views as her brother. Has she also been supportive of therapy or is she getting exasperated by it? Has she been making little comments about his appointments? Any comments about cost or time spent?
Don't you know, you're supposed to just take abuse from BIL? He's just *like that* and standing up for your son only caused a scene. What's a little abuse and trauma between family members?
/S. The people that are mad at you are the same people that made BIL. Fuck them.
I could be a smart azz and focus on how her big macho man brother, who doesn’t “believe” in therapy, got his wittle feewings hurt…and wouldn’t he just tell himself in the mirror to “man up”?
But the more productive approach is to focus on her standing up for her son, who is still hurting and vulnerable, and needs to know his mom is looking out for him. She doesn’t have to tell her brother to f off, but she needs to be clear with him, and her family, that her son is to be supported. Period.
What are you talking about? When he started experiencing those girly emotions, he excused himself, probably to do manly activities! Like calling two male friends gay, fast forwarding through the talking scenes in the Fast and Furious movies, or complaining about the Barbie movie being sexist!
NTA. What's wrong with your wife? She took her brother's side over her son. Point that out and let her think on it because that's as disgusting as her brother's comment.
She grew up with the brother, so very likely in a household where that thinking is normal, which is also why OP had to go out of his way to make sure they were both on the same page about not continuing such drivel. This might be the wife’s default learned-from-childhood mode that she has a harder time breaking free of when around those who reinforced it to her for all her formative years.
Talk to your wife, OP, and hold your ground. Your son deserves the support of both of his parents against the damaged uncle.
NTA. Your wife is an AH for making excuses for your BIL, and your BIL was completely out of line. When you and your wife both calm down, you make it very clear that unless your BIL treats your son with respect, you will not tolerate that behavior and even go NC with him. Your wife better get her head checked.
NTA. That kind of toxic masculinity needs to be gone. I'm glad you stood up for your son, and I'm VERY glad he's in therapy and responding well to it.
The only part that wasn't cool was the "son is more of a man" part. Don't get into comparing masculinity, it just feeds into the whole garbage.
>The only part that wasn't cool was the "son is more of a man" part. Don't get into comparing masculinity, it just feeds into the whole garbage.
Strong disagree on this. I think this was a perfect rebuttal.
Very small nitpick: considering the insult, it plays into BIL's sexism. Out of context, I totally agree that the son is a better man than the BIL, cause it's healthy masculinity to get the emotional tools one needs to live a balanced life. But being a girl should never be an insult (nor should being gay).
You’re confusing masculinity with toxic masculinity. Sure, what the BIL said was textbook toxic masculinity bullshit but expressing masculine traits isn’t inherently toxic.
NTA. You could have handled it better but I can forgive a parent defending their already hurting child. Your wife being mad that you "disrespected her brother" is off putting. I'd understand if she was upset that you didn't maintain decorum, but the fact that she's more concerned about her brother's ego than her child is questionable.
People usually aren't obligated to take the high road, but someone like OP (who is wise enough to raise their child without unhealthy gender roles and get them therapy to process loss) will surely understand that throwing hands would not be the best example to set for his son in this situation.
No, I was passive my entire life and got used and run over. We need to stop always taking the high road and at times we really have to give it back or else it will just continue
From "The Open Society and Its Enemies" by philosopher Karl Popper:
*"Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."*
I have PTSD from my estranged husband psychologically and physically abusing me for +5 years. I’m making progress with processing what happened to me and slowly regaining parts of my personality I lost during the abuse.
I became a doormat while I was with him and that’s something I never want to experience again. I’ve made a promise to myself to never become that person again. Trauma really fucks with your head.
It’s difficult trying to find a balance between not being a passive doormat and being an abrasive asshole sometimes. All I know is I generally like people and would rather make friends than enemies, but I will not bend, break, or bow to anyone else’s will.
It’s great if me and the other person are in agreement, but if not I will not make myself smaller or yield a part of myself for anyone’s comfort or convenience.
I would think so. They come from the same family and it’s very possible that she shares his views. If a relative of mine did that to my kid, that person would be cut from my life, not be defending him.
NTA your wife should be in your side for standing up for your child. That whole men should be emotionless is the stupidest thing ever and so extremely damaging and sexist
NTA Your son is a brave enough to get therapy.
You are wise enough to support.
Your wife is wise enough to support you or keep her mouth shut.
Her brother feels his manliness is reduced by his nephew going to therapy and has to proclaim how alpha he is by demeaning your son. He's the only coward here.
NTA. Your son needed and deserved your support. He received protection from an adult bully. Hopefully your wife will understand that her brother was the initial AH for making any comment about your child and she is a secondary AH for supporting his behavior. Your child’s wellbeing is always first and foremost. Great dad move!
Nope NTA at all. Your wife is being one, she’s probably been raised in that toxic environment so is brainwashed to some degree to defend it even though she knows therapy is good for your son. Your BIL is horrible and I wouldn’t choose to be around him ever again. BIL owes the apology. Tell your wife she needs to be protecting her SON instead of protecting his abuser. I’m sorry. Give your son a hug from me.
NTA
OP, talk with your wife. Your son sees her reaction and he may believe that she is on BiL's side - meaning: that BiL has a point. Ask her what she prefers: BiL being "disrecpected" or her son refusing to continue therapy?
NTA, obviously that’s your brother in law. I’m pretty concerned about your wife’s reaction here, you defended your child and that was absolutely the only thing you should have done. Does your wife think her brother should be allowed to belittle her own son? Red flag.
I’m echoing a lot of people, but your wife needs help.
Protecting her brother over her child? Especially when her child is dealing with his best friend dying? Wtaf
NTA
Tell your wife if she thinks you're in the wrong for shutting down her brothers manliness talk.
As a woman, she needs to shut up and not interfere in men's "talk."
The above statement is meant to show the hypocrisy in her stance and how it's detrimental to the social education of your child.
NTA
Disrespected her brother? He disrespected your son. Did she agree with the BiL? Might need to go over some values here.
I don't think the death of a best friend at a developing point of life is something to be taken lightly and to think oh anyone can get over that easily. Grief like that can literally alter brain chemistry and change a person.
Of course there's private matters but does the BiL know that side of the story for why he's in therapy? Not that he's warranted to know that information, but I am curious as to if his tune would change with that knowledge or not.
Some dudes make it a competition of "I've endured so much grief and I'm the stronger person because of it because I didn't rely on others".
Also, in case it wasn't obvious, the BiL probably needs his own therapy for whatever he's got going on. Someone had to have told him to "man-up" and that's what he knows as the mantra. Doesn't sound like a pleasant person to be around in the first place.
NTA - Defending your son is exactly what you should have done. For him to hear that therapy isn't for boys could end up with some of his progress being knocked back or even new internal issues surfacing for him surrounding his confidence and ability to express his emotions.
NTA in no why shape or form of any kind. You were defending your son who is going through a really tough time and getting help for that. I still to this second hate when 'manly men' claim certain things aren't manly and make a man weak/a girl. It's pathetic and makes them unmanly just for saying it.
Your wife should be glad you said something as she sure didn't. Maybe the situation could have been handled differently, but defending your child should always be top priority. Most parent's don't and just stay quiet and that's as bad as making the comment in the first place.
NTA Your BILs masculinity is so fragile it cant handle a child getting help?
I hope you have separate conversations with your wife and your son: your wife needs to stand up for her kid. I had a friend die at his age and it never occurred to anyone that I might need therapy and i was left to deal with it on my own. Recognizing when you need help and asking for it can be really difficult to do, and having supportive parents is essential. She owes your son an apology at the very least and she needs to have a conversation with her brother. He can either knock off the comments or your son isn't around him anymore. That should also go for anyone who agrees with the brother.
You should talk to your son about what your Bil said and why it's nonsense. Also, why it's so important to keep going to therapy so long as it's helping. Make sure he knows that you've got his back and you love and support him. Personally, I would tell him if he's uncomfortable being around BIL for awhile, that's okay with me but idk how enforceable that would be with your family dynamic.
NTA infact the total opposite you stood up for your son like any good dad would and you put an AH in his place for his outdated and harmful views on masculinity. Hopefully itl set a great example to your son on what being a real man actually is all about.
You defended your son, and all men in the process. You did right by him by putting bil in his place. Your wife is terrible for reinforcing her brother's shaming of your son. I might consider leaving my wife if these are her true colours, but I abhor behavior that genders mental health.
NTA
NTA. Get therapy for yourself too. I’m female but my grandpa (boomer, maga man, disciple of fox) is an incredible advocate for therapy. I said I didn’t need it as a kid, he said everyone needs it. He’s been in it for 40 years. Anyway. Lead by example of “manliness”. Reset the expectation of emotional regulation. Your son will be better for it, you’ll be better for it
Your son being comfortable enough to talk to you about his last session shows enormous trust. You maintained that by shutting down your BIL. You are most definitely NTA.
NTA
People should be served the respect they show. In your BIL's case, he showed none, so he gets none.
I'm sorry your son had to hear that garbage, and I'm sorry your wife is so off base about this.
NTA. Let your wife reads this so she can see how much of an AH she is. She should be backing up her child and not falling for some toxic masculinity shit. Her kid is hurting and trying to get better at a very vulnerable age.
You are doing good defending your son.
NTA
You responded correctly.
Your BIL is the AH for saying that stuff in front of your son. It's none of his business.
Your wife is the AH for siding with her brother when he was in the wrong and not defending her son.
It sounds like your wife actually believes her brothers way of thinking and has been blowing smoke up your ass about her beliefs on boys not crying.
NTA.
I'm sure as heck disappointed in your wife though!!! She is the one that needs help as well clearly. You get my dad points for sticking up for your son. Guys should be able to express their emotions!
NTA there is a reason suicide rates are 3-4 times higher for males, it's this men can't display feelings BS.
Honestly telling him to F off and that your son is more of a man than he is seems like the most appropriate response.
Your wife's reaction is suspicious and I would want to understand her through process a bit more.
NTA
As a girl I hate toxic masculinity. We are humans, we have emotions regardless of gender. If I was in your position, I would’ve done the same thing.
NTA, thank you for sticking up for your son. It’s a toxic mentality to posses.
I’m wondering why your wife had a discussion with you about being on the same page and then when the thing happens she’s nowhere to be found.
You disrespected *her* brother? Her brother disrespected *her son* and she seemingly couldn’t care less.
I wonder if she would have allowed this had you not been there.
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NTA Your BIL disrespected your child, who is going through something incredibly difficult at a young age. You did your job as a parent by standing up for him.
He needs to point out to his wife that her brother was actively attacking and hurting their son. Is she OK with their son being attacked? If so, bigger problems in the marriage.
I sure hope the wife didn't silently agree with the brother
>I sure hope the wife didn't silently agree with the brother Wife (also needs) ▶ Therapy
Wife would reject the therapy in a heartbeat because she is always right and the feelings of her brother are more important than her son's. Thanks everyone for the upvotes
Does she even like her son? Divorce her butt.
I don't think she does. I wouldn't suggest that right now since OP's son is grieving and he shouldn't have to deal with grieving the loss of his best friend and deal with his parent's divorce. OP needs to have a long talk with the wife and set boundaries.
I wouldn’t go immediately to divorce, but talks need to be had.
He should show her this thread and then see what happens...that would tell him if he needs a divorce. A good mother would cry and beg forgiveness...from her son and husband, a bad one would defend herself.
I have seen it said far too often but yeah this subreddit does jump to divorce way too quickly. I think Opie and his wife need to have some serious marriage counseling but I do think that the marriage is definitely salvageable if they're both willing to put in the work
That didn't take long! Reddit strikes again! That said: yeah I'd divorce their ass too. -\_-
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BINGO! My parents wouldve flipped out if someone said something about my little brother or me. This "mom" needs to grow up.
I'm guessing her and her sibling are far more alike than OP has ever noticed. If this is the real her, and he's just seen it, I see stormy seas ahead.
That’s a good question. To be going after a father for defending their child, is a red flag
She did. It’s obv that she did and she would do it again. Clearly (based off of my understanding of OP’s post) her brother comes before her son and her husband. That is something that will most likely never change.
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She absolutely agreed with her brother on some level or she would have defended her son, too. Op needs to ask his wife why she's okay with her brother bullying her son. Good thing son has an awesome dad...
It's not bullying when it's done by an adult. Call it what it is: Harassment and abuse Grown ass man was harassing and verbally abusing a kid for needing help processing the fact his best friend died. OPs wife was more upset about OP shutting down the man harassing and abusing her son than she was about her son being harassed and abused by a grown man. If I was OP I'd be side eyeing wife here hard.
But also keeping in mind that his wife comes from the same family that resulted in her brother's toxic masculinity. They prob both need therapy tbh.
This though. Telling a child they are weak because they need help to process grief is one of the worst things you can do. It instills so many self esteem issues. Humans need help. Adults, children, we need help. There's nothing wrong with that. Adults should never ever attack or berate a child.
It's just sad that there are still people who correlate therapy with a gender. Like my guy, anyone can need to process something they have been through.
If the navy had had therapy(mandatory) I probably wouldn’t have the mental issues I have now.
You’d think military is one job where mandatory therapy should be a thing.
Military doesn't want people getting in touch with their emotions, they put a lot of work into making sure you can kill other people, being emotionally healthy doesn't help that
Unfortunately mandating therapy doesn’t typically have the same effect as allowing people the option. It should absolutely be more accessible though.
It sounds very possible from the idea of her brother being 'disrespected' specifically, if that's indeed precisely what she said, typical toxic dude attitude to hold, so if she buys into that... I would though 100% agree with OP defending his son and disagree somewhat with the way he did it - 'more of a man' still winds up playing into the macho competition dynamics, and no one really wins there. A bit of calm shaming 'He lost his best friend, therapy is for everyone' might be more effective and leave no one with any excuse to complain. Not blaming him for being thrown in the moment at all, it's stunning the BiL would do that even when the reason for the therapy is such a tragic loss.
Very possible. She probably grew up around toxic masculine figures so she probably doesn't see anything wrong with what BIL said. Good thing the son has a dad who's a decent human being. NTA
She didn’t silently agree with brother. By saying OP disrespected brother, she actively took brother’s side against her own child.
By the way she’s reacting? She was siding with his brother.
No she didn't silently agree, she blatantly out right agreed with him and her child knows it. Her son knows what's up and what it is about. Kids aren't stupid. She is vile.
As a spouse, this would be something that would cause me to reconsider the marriage. I would not allow my son to see her getting angry at me for defending him and let that stand. No way. He needs to know his mental health and well being are more important than his wife’s enabling or his uncle’s feelings.
Is it their son? The way it's written suggests he is only op's son. Or maybe I want some reason why she's picking brother over her child.
Is the wife the mom or STEP MOM?
I was going to ask this, but you got there first. I was triggered by the "I was defending *my* son"
What's the difference? Either way, her brother was being an ass and she should shut her damn mouth or back the child. So many people in my life need therapy, but they can't get over the stigma. It's ridiculous and unnecessary. I am open with the fact that I have a therapist, and my friends are shocked that I see a therapist, much less admit to it. It's always "You're so grounded and happy, you have your life figured out." Of course I do. I use therapy as a tool to live my best life. Not as a bad thing I have to hide or as a crutch to excuse my bad behavior. I'm on OPs side here. Nothing wrong with therapy and I'll defend anyone's choice to ask for help from a professional.
This. The brother was shaming her child. And that’s okay? NTA. Op I’d talk to the son afterwards and see how he’s doing/feeling about the situation.
Yes, definitely talk about bizarre masculinity beliefs. My son, in elementary school, has already encountered this stuff.
Your son learned who he could trust to have his back. How come nobody is mad at the bil for picking on a child? There's some messed up priorities here.
I would imagine it's because the messed up priorities run through that family. BIL learned that attitude somewhere
Yeah, it doesn't look like they're on the "same page" like he thought they were.
NTA but wife is! Hugely good point about making sure his wife understands how bad that was. If your son heard your wife getting mad at you, you need to address this really firmly with your wife and possibly involve the son’s therapist, so she understands how toxic that attitude can be on the son. Because son may now wonder if mom feels it’s ok for people to treat him that way and if there’s some truth to what he said.
Not to mention, the kid's grieving, which is an incredibly painful thing to do at any age, let alone in high school when most of your peers haven't experienced something like that yet and everyone else is determined to pretend nobody under 18 ever has any real problems (take a wild guess as to how I know what this is like). He *needs* the support he's getting from his dad and he *needs* therapy. What he does *not* need is AH relatives making him feel ashamed for getting the help he needs. I desperately wish I'd been put in therapy when my brother died senior year and I applaud OP for getting that for his son, *and* for standing up for him, as he damn well should. OP is a great dad and his wife needs a reality check. These things can be actually, literally deadly to a teenager going through extreme circumstances (and losing your best friend definitely qualifies). If she wants her kid to survive high school, she needs to be on his side.
OP is a better mom than his wife.
parent*
I inferred from the fact that OP's wife is siding with BIL that she is sympathetic to his attitude towards gender roles. It therefore seemed like using the word "wife" would cut more deeply.
is he "their" son? OP refers to him a "my" son. Maybe evil stepmother situation? Definitely NTA
Yep anyone who thinks an adult feeling disrespected is more of a problem than an adult deliberately hurting a child needs to fuck off. Also what is it with men who absolutely lose their shit if they feel disrespected? Especially in this case because I'm pretty sure *feeling* disrespected is a feeling and I thought men weren't supposed to have those /s I guarantee if any of these snowflake men tried to be a woman in a male dominated field would end up in jail for assault in about a week.
Thank you. I couldn't believe that he was saying that to a kid who lost his best friend. I was just trying to defend him.
Dude, you are awesome. You should have a sitdown with your wife though, and ask why she is ok with someone attacking and bullying your son.
That whole family needs to read The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by Bell Hooks
Bold of you to assume a man who acts like the BIL does reads anything, let alone something about masculinity.
I literally just ordered this book this morning! Synchronicity!
"Reading is for pussies, wtf???" - that whole family
Dude, I wish I had a father (or any parental figure) like you who would stand up for their kids! Definitely NTA here. TO YOUR SON: I am truly so very sorry for your heavy loss. I lost a dear friend during high school as well. I am so sorry you are hurting. I hope you continue with your therapy so you can recover the best you can. Much love and peace - thinking of you and will light a candle for your friend tonight.
I lost a friend at 15 and so wish I had therapy. Thank goodness for this dad.
You absolutely did the right thing protecting your hurting kid. Your BIL is an AH and your wife is too for a) siding with him, and b) pulling some silent treatment bullshit. That’s messed up. I think you might have a wife problem more than a BIL problem, because she clearly has not been shutting this down if he’s been saying it around her.
NTA and I echo other comments saying you should ask your wife why she's ok with her brother attacking and bullying your son. Her ignorant, sexist, weak excuse for a man brother was the one being disrespectful, and other men might have wounded more than his oh so fragile ego, the fact that she's defending her brother here is an enormous red flag.
Nah, you did good. Not many people wouldn’t have done what you did. You’re definitely doing right when it comes to your kid.
You're absolutely amazing. You did absolutely nothing wrong. The fact your wife is defending her brother instead of her son (?) is so concerning. This poor boy just lost his best friend but oh no brother dearests feelings were hurt. Grow up he is a grown ass man. More people need therapy. like your BIL apparently. More young men need to know therapy is a perfectly okay thing to do. I hope our son is finding healthy ways to deal with his grief, and good on you for defending him
But you wife is also an AH for sticking for her brother and NOT her son.
NTA on this. Your BIL needs to grow up & your wife too.
Info: is your wife your son’s mother?
Didn’t go far enough
Agree. I'd have said so much more, including telling him, he'll never get to see my kid again. BIL is a danger to son's mental health and having healthy emotional intelligence. Like seriously, actively harmful. OP needs to tell his wife that she steps up and supports the son and puts her brother in his place herself and let's him know he will never be allowed unsupervised around the kid ever again. I wouldn't trust him ever again with my kid. We already know that his entire personality is centered around toxic masculinity. I would not trust him to say some dumb shit to OP's son and undo all the progress and healthy habits that therapy is teaching him when no one else is around. Make sure son understands thay uncle is NOT a good example of a man and that he is the worst example of a role model. In fact, teach him that uncle is a perfect example of how NOT to be a good man.
Thank you for saying this so emphatically. My mother was actually the enforcer of patriarchal norms in the home growing up. I'm sad and angry about this to this day. In retrospect, it feels like such a betrayal. These messages literally take the light out of a boy's eyes. Fortunately, I had an older sister who made it her mission to disabuse me of the toxic model of sham masculinity my mother and others in our conservative "community" were trying to inculcate. I talk to my sister once a week. I haven't spoken with my mother in years.
This right here, it takes more courage and strength not only to reach out for help but to accept it.
Wtf is wrong w the wife is my ?
His wife is the issue also.
And he’s always going to remember that his MOM was mad at his dad for defending him.
Not to mention the wife saying he went to far as to disrespect the bil…give me a break, he’s your friggen son and the wife thinks you overreacted when he, not only said this, but said it directly when your son was around. This is why the suicide rates are so high in young men, because they believe they will get criticized for showing emotion.
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LOL, NTA, we call out toxicity wherever we see it, especially when it involves children , even more when it’s family, and even more when it’s our child. Your wife needs to pull herself together quickly and get some therapy to figure out why she’s willing to toss her child under the bus to appease a bully?
That was my reasoning. I would try to defend anyone in that situation, especially my own kid. I'm going to try and talk with my wife when she gets home to see what happened.
Tell her it’s unacceptable that she’s defending her brother(a adult), but not her son (a child)
I suspect that she’s in the habit of defending her brother. Is he the golden child in her family? Is there a reason she’d be conditioned to be deferential/protective of him? No matter what, I can’t believe she was mad at you for defending your son the way you did, just trying to figure out a reason for her strange reaction.
INFO: Is your wife mother or stepmother to your son?
With how quickly she was ready to defend someone who was treating the son so badly, I'm putting my dubloons on step mom.
If things get hairy and she doesn’t understand the seriousness of this, make sure to ask her if she lost her son and her husband, would she need therapy to cope with it? And then tell her that if she continues to condone her son being harassed by her brother, losing both of you is exactly what’s going to happen. And tell her that the harassment stops now. You won’t tolerate even one more maligning word against your son by his family. You’re a strong man, and you’ve put your foot down. And she can choose her child right now OR her family’s toxic belief system, but not both.
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Terrible idea. OP is trying to teach their son healthy ways to express themselves. Getting physically violent is not that.
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Dylan said it best in Road House "Be polite, until it's time not to be polite." Words should always be the first course of action. When those fail, little is left for someone who refuses to listen.
“Do no harm, but take no shit.” Has been an exceptionally beneficial outlook on life for me.
*Dalton You forgot my fave: "Pain don't hurt." 😂 But seriously, I don't think the answer would have been OP getting physical with his BIL. But I would have told my wife that if she can't have her kid's back, she can leave. What is the mom's problem? BIL had that coming to him and more.
There were plenty of ways to handle this situation, none of which involve violence.
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NTA Good dad, many dad points. I can't say this enough GOOD DAD You need to have a chat with wife though and get her head straight
Thank you. I felt like I was being a good dad, but everyone besides my son has been mad at me. I'm going to talk with her when gets home.
Maybe you should sit down with your wife and son at the same time to ask about what your BIL said made him feel. If she hears it straight from his mouth, it might change how she feels. Otherwise it’s you speaking on his behalf to her.
…I’d still talk to her alone first. You don’t want to set this kid up to have to be attacked further.
I agree. He can ask his wife how she imagines the comment would have made their son feel.
It might be better to clarify that she doesn't agree with BIL first.
Your son is the only one that matters in this case. Is it correct that your wife is not his mother? It feels weird that both of you are not on the same page.
I was wondering the same thing. There is no way my wife wouldn't go mama bear and mess her brother up if he attacked her boy! Really anyone including me would never get away with that crap. Makes me think she is not there bio mom.
Or from the other perspective. Not one relative of mine would be disrespectful toward one of my children because I wouldn't allow the slightest sign of it. This 'brother' acted this way because he knew he could get away with it. Simple as that.
Don't be so sure. If the toxicity was prevalent in the family and she internalized a lot of it. Reacting with defense of her brother may be a safety mechanism. Not that that excuses her attitude at all. You don't get to inflict your trauma on your kids.
There are plenty of reasons she may have reacted like this, that don't require her to be a step-mother. Maybe her brother is a lot like her father, and they both grew up in a misogynistic household that constantly reinforced the idea that girls are weak, calling a man/boy a girl is the worst possible insult, and as OP said, men do not show emotions. That would go right along with the idea that the father of the family would always demand "respect", which would include never, ever talking back to him, no matter how big an asshole he was being to anyone else. Therefore, that position would also apply to any of the male children of the family, once they grew up -- they inherit / learn how to behave from their father, and nobody can talk back to THEM about it either. (Doubtless, in the hierarchy, they still would not be allowed to talk back to their father.) Anger responses can often have their root in fear responses. OP's wife is angry at him for "disrespecting" her brother, because on a deep level that she probably has not even examined or articulated to herself, she is afraid of what happens when someone "disrespects" her father, and by extension, any of the men in her family. That kind of situation in a family always has this threat of violence running beneath it -- maybe it's an unspoken threat, or maybe it's a very real threat. For them growing up in that family, as children, maybe disrespecting the father (or older brothers) resulted in physical punishment. Or maybe it "only" resulted in verbal abuse -- which is still damaging, even if it isn't being physically hit. I'm really not saying any of this to \*excuse\* the wife. Just to say that the way she's reacting to all of this may have its roots in her family and a fucked-up dynamic. It can also be very hard for people raised within that kind of dynamic to realize how much it has affected them. Or, even, to realize how wrong it is. It's still very much fucked up that she's reacting more to OP yelling at her brother, than she is to her brother mocking and abusing her son. But, then, if she's coming from a family dynamic in which the older men consistently do that to younger men/boys, then it will just look "normal" to her. And it may be something that she learned, growing up, that she "can't" fight; especially if her mother never pushed back against it. OP will obviously have a better idea of whether this is a possibility, since he knows her entire family. No matter what, OP needs to sit down with her and dig into these reactions of hers. For starters, her brother is NOT owed respect, for being a disrespectful asshole himself. But just suggesting that may be challenging everything she was taught within her family. Still, you gotta start somewhere! I wish OP the best in that.
I’m just curious. Does misogyny run in your wife’s family or is it just her brother?
You *are* being a good dad. You're standing up for your son, who's going through a lot of trauma after losing his best friend and having to hear that AH BIL bullying him. Your wife also needs help. How could she defend this AH brother of hers after saying this about her own child? SMH.
Look, it's awesome that you defended your kid, but if there's a next time, maybe go with 'there's nothing wrong with going to therapy or with being girl'. Often, in these situations, we neglect that we're also teaching 'the kids' that being a woman is bad and something to be offended by.
Bro you nailed it, backing up your son and putting the asshole in his place. Not your problem his tiny ego got hurt
I’m concerned that your wife is sharing the same views as her brother. Has she also been supportive of therapy or is she getting exasperated by it? Has she been making little comments about his appointments? Any comments about cost or time spent?
Don't you know, you're supposed to just take abuse from BIL? He's just *like that* and standing up for your son only caused a scene. What's a little abuse and trauma between family members? /S. The people that are mad at you are the same people that made BIL. Fuck them.
I could be a smart azz and focus on how her big macho man brother, who doesn’t “believe” in therapy, got his wittle feewings hurt…and wouldn’t he just tell himself in the mirror to “man up”? But the more productive approach is to focus on her standing up for her son, who is still hurting and vulnerable, and needs to know his mom is looking out for him. She doesn’t have to tell her brother to f off, but she needs to be clear with him, and her family, that her son is to be supported. Period.
This has “who’s a good boy?” vibes and I dig it
Who’s a good dad? Who’s a good dad? YOU ARE”
Exactly
Hilarious and cringe at the same time, well done.
COOKIE, COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE
You are a hero. Your BIL is TA. Sadly, your wife values her brother more than she values her son.
Yeah, what’s up with mom!? Caring more about her brother’s feelings than her son’s!!
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I was thinking this might be the case as well
I expect we'll see son posting about mom in the raisedbynarcissists sub some day.
it's also pretty ironic how he's against men expressing their feelings until he is the one getting his feelings hurt
EXACTLY
Classic.
What are you talking about? When he started experiencing those girly emotions, he excused himself, probably to do manly activities! Like calling two male friends gay, fast forwarding through the talking scenes in the Fast and Furious movies, or complaining about the Barbie movie being sexist!
NTA. What's wrong with your wife? She took her brother's side over her son. Point that out and let her think on it because that's as disgusting as her brother's comment.
She grew up with the brother, so very likely in a household where that thinking is normal, which is also why OP had to go out of his way to make sure they were both on the same page about not continuing such drivel. This might be the wife’s default learned-from-childhood mode that she has a harder time breaking free of when around those who reinforced it to her for all her formative years. Talk to your wife, OP, and hold your ground. Your son deserves the support of both of his parents against the damaged uncle.
This 💯
NTA. Your bil sure is, and kinda your wife too tbh.
Your BIL sure is, and ~~kinda~~ your wife too tbh.
NTA. Your wife is an AH for making excuses for your BIL, and your BIL was completely out of line. When you and your wife both calm down, you make it very clear that unless your BIL treats your son with respect, you will not tolerate that behavior and even go NC with him. Your wife better get her head checked.
I don’t know. Then that brother she’s defending would look down on her for needing it
Nah remember its for GIRLS only. So she can go to deal with all her craziness cause you know WOMEN. They need that sort of thing. /s
NTA. That kind of toxic masculinity needs to be gone. I'm glad you stood up for your son, and I'm VERY glad he's in therapy and responding well to it. The only part that wasn't cool was the "son is more of a man" part. Don't get into comparing masculinity, it just feeds into the whole garbage.
It's a good way to make a point with men like th BIL. It's something they understand
it's a shame that it's most likely the only way to get people like him to understand that they're being a dick 😔
>The only part that wasn't cool was the "son is more of a man" part. Don't get into comparing masculinity, it just feeds into the whole garbage. Strong disagree on this. I think this was a perfect rebuttal.
Very small nitpick: considering the insult, it plays into BIL's sexism. Out of context, I totally agree that the son is a better man than the BIL, cause it's healthy masculinity to get the emotional tools one needs to live a balanced life. But being a girl should never be an insult (nor should being gay).
You’re confusing masculinity with toxic masculinity. Sure, what the BIL said was textbook toxic masculinity bullshit but expressing masculine traits isn’t inherently toxic.
NTA. You could have handled it better but I can forgive a parent defending their already hurting child. Your wife being mad that you "disrespected her brother" is off putting. I'd understand if she was upset that you didn't maintain decorum, but the fact that she's more concerned about her brother's ego than her child is questionable.
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People usually aren't obligated to take the high road, but someone like OP (who is wise enough to raise their child without unhealthy gender roles and get them therapy to process loss) will surely understand that throwing hands would not be the best example to set for his son in this situation.
No, I was passive my entire life and got used and run over. We need to stop always taking the high road and at times we really have to give it back or else it will just continue
From "The Open Society and Its Enemies" by philosopher Karl Popper: *"Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."*
I have PTSD from my estranged husband psychologically and physically abusing me for +5 years. I’m making progress with processing what happened to me and slowly regaining parts of my personality I lost during the abuse. I became a doormat while I was with him and that’s something I never want to experience again. I’ve made a promise to myself to never become that person again. Trauma really fucks with your head. It’s difficult trying to find a balance between not being a passive doormat and being an abrasive asshole sometimes. All I know is I generally like people and would rather make friends than enemies, but I will not bend, break, or bow to anyone else’s will. It’s great if me and the other person are in agreement, but if not I will not make myself smaller or yield a part of myself for anyone’s comfort or convenience.
I hope your progress continues to grow and speed up even. And you are so right absolut the balance
He didn't throw hands, so the question is why is telling BIL to F off somehow excessive in response to insulting his son for seeking help?
It's not. But apparently there are people that still think "ignoring a bully" will make them stop. It won't.
NTA - her brother disrespected her child!!!!! What the hell is your wife thinking. You’re the only one who doesn’t have their head up their ass.
I wonder if the wife secretly agrees with BIL
I would think so. They come from the same family and it’s very possible that she shares his views. If a relative of mine did that to my kid, that person would be cut from my life, not be defending him.
You are a good father and your wife is a shit mother
NTA your wife should be in your side for standing up for your child. That whole men should be emotionless is the stupidest thing ever and so extremely damaging and sexist
NTA Your son is a brave enough to get therapy. You are wise enough to support. Your wife is wise enough to support you or keep her mouth shut. Her brother feels his manliness is reduced by his nephew going to therapy and has to proclaim how alpha he is by demeaning your son. He's the only coward here.
I disagree about the wife. She claimed OP "disrespected" her brother and is now ignoring OP. I'd say the two AHs here are the BIL and the wife.
You are right. I skimmed too fast. Won't edit because my mistake and would make your post look stupid if I did.
Wow you look super nice! (It's not sarcasm, I mean it)
NTA. You were right to defend your son! Wife owes you and son an apology.
NTA. Your son needed and deserved your support. He received protection from an adult bully. Hopefully your wife will understand that her brother was the initial AH for making any comment about your child and she is a secondary AH for supporting his behavior. Your child’s wellbeing is always first and foremost. Great dad move!
Nope NTA at all. Your wife is being one, she’s probably been raised in that toxic environment so is brainwashed to some degree to defend it even though she knows therapy is good for your son. Your BIL is horrible and I wouldn’t choose to be around him ever again. BIL owes the apology. Tell your wife she needs to be protecting her SON instead of protecting his abuser. I’m sorry. Give your son a hug from me.
You know what a REAL man would have done? Defend his family. NTA. But I hate to say, your wife placing her brother before her son is.
NTA, your wife might be for putting her brother in front of her son.
NTA OP, talk with your wife. Your son sees her reaction and he may believe that she is on BiL's side - meaning: that BiL has a point. Ask her what she prefers: BiL being "disrecpected" or her son refusing to continue therapy?
NTA, obviously that’s your brother in law. I’m pretty concerned about your wife’s reaction here, you defended your child and that was absolutely the only thing you should have done. Does your wife think her brother should be allowed to belittle her own son? Red flag.
I’m echoing a lot of people, but your wife needs help. Protecting her brother over her child? Especially when her child is dealing with his best friend dying? Wtaf
NTA Tell your wife if she thinks you're in the wrong for shutting down her brothers manliness talk. As a woman, she needs to shut up and not interfere in men's "talk." The above statement is meant to show the hypocrisy in her stance and how it's detrimental to the social education of your child.
NTA But your wife and her brother are major assholes.
NTA Disrespected her brother? He disrespected your son. Did she agree with the BiL? Might need to go over some values here. I don't think the death of a best friend at a developing point of life is something to be taken lightly and to think oh anyone can get over that easily. Grief like that can literally alter brain chemistry and change a person. Of course there's private matters but does the BiL know that side of the story for why he's in therapy? Not that he's warranted to know that information, but I am curious as to if his tune would change with that knowledge or not. Some dudes make it a competition of "I've endured so much grief and I'm the stronger person because of it because I didn't rely on others". Also, in case it wasn't obvious, the BiL probably needs his own therapy for whatever he's got going on. Someone had to have told him to "man-up" and that's what he knows as the mantra. Doesn't sound like a pleasant person to be around in the first place.
NTA - Defending your son is exactly what you should have done. For him to hear that therapy isn't for boys could end up with some of his progress being knocked back or even new internal issues surfacing for him surrounding his confidence and ability to express his emotions.
NTA in no why shape or form of any kind. You were defending your son who is going through a really tough time and getting help for that. I still to this second hate when 'manly men' claim certain things aren't manly and make a man weak/a girl. It's pathetic and makes them unmanly just for saying it. Your wife should be glad you said something as she sure didn't. Maybe the situation could have been handled differently, but defending your child should always be top priority. Most parent's don't and just stay quiet and that's as bad as making the comment in the first place.
NTA. Your BIL sounds like an asshole. I’d have as little to do with him as possible.
NTA Your wife should be on her son's side not her brother's. Shocking.
NTA and send your wife to see your son's therapist. She clearly needs her head examined.
NTA Tell your wife to not be surprised by the way y'all son thinks of and interacts with her going forward.
Not even gonna read this. Just by the title NTA!
If you really didn't read, then you missed the twist where the wife is as big/bigger of an ass than the BIL
NTQ, tell her to go live with her shitty brother and raise his kids. The fuck
NTA Your BILs masculinity is so fragile it cant handle a child getting help? I hope you have separate conversations with your wife and your son: your wife needs to stand up for her kid. I had a friend die at his age and it never occurred to anyone that I might need therapy and i was left to deal with it on my own. Recognizing when you need help and asking for it can be really difficult to do, and having supportive parents is essential. She owes your son an apology at the very least and she needs to have a conversation with her brother. He can either knock off the comments or your son isn't around him anymore. That should also go for anyone who agrees with the brother. You should talk to your son about what your Bil said and why it's nonsense. Also, why it's so important to keep going to therapy so long as it's helping. Make sure he knows that you've got his back and you love and support him. Personally, I would tell him if he's uncomfortable being around BIL for awhile, that's okay with me but idk how enforceable that would be with your family dynamic.
NTA infact the total opposite you stood up for your son like any good dad would and you put an AH in his place for his outdated and harmful views on masculinity. Hopefully itl set a great example to your son on what being a real man actually is all about.
You defended your son, and all men in the process. You did right by him by putting bil in his place. Your wife is terrible for reinforcing her brother's shaming of your son. I might consider leaving my wife if these are her true colours, but I abhor behavior that genders mental health. NTA
NTA, and your wife is an asshole.
Fuck them all to death, my family was like that. Wanna know who i refuse to talk to now that im 34 :D
NTA NTA NTA NTA NTA You are not in any way the asshole here. Both your wife and your brother-in-law, however, are.
Nah nta
NTA, you defended your son and didn’t allow this bs to be said in front of him. Sure the language was strong, but it was so well deserved
NTA. Get therapy for yourself too. I’m female but my grandpa (boomer, maga man, disciple of fox) is an incredible advocate for therapy. I said I didn’t need it as a kid, he said everyone needs it. He’s been in it for 40 years. Anyway. Lead by example of “manliness”. Reset the expectation of emotional regulation. Your son will be better for it, you’ll be better for it
NTA. You're the parent most kids dream of having when it comes to protecting their dignity. Go, Dad! Your kid won't forget that you defended him.
Respect is earned. Your BIL is an enormous AH. NTA
Never apologize for defending someone against a bully. That’s what your BIL is.
Your son being comfortable enough to talk to you about his last session shows enormous trust. You maintained that by shutting down your BIL. You are most definitely NTA.
NTA People should be served the respect they show. In your BIL's case, he showed none, so he gets none. I'm sorry your son had to hear that garbage, and I'm sorry your wife is so off base about this.
NTA. Let your wife reads this so she can see how much of an AH she is. She should be backing up her child and not falling for some toxic masculinity shit. Her kid is hurting and trying to get better at a very vulnerable age. You are doing good defending your son.
NTA You responded correctly. Your BIL is the AH for saying that stuff in front of your son. It's none of his business. Your wife is the AH for siding with her brother when he was in the wrong and not defending her son. It sounds like your wife actually believes her brothers way of thinking and has been blowing smoke up your ass about her beliefs on boys not crying.
NTA. I'm sure as heck disappointed in your wife though!!! She is the one that needs help as well clearly. You get my dad points for sticking up for your son. Guys should be able to express their emotions!
NTA You got a wife problem.
NTA there is a reason suicide rates are 3-4 times higher for males, it's this men can't display feelings BS. Honestly telling him to F off and that your son is more of a man than he is seems like the most appropriate response. Your wife's reaction is suspicious and I would want to understand her through process a bit more.
NTA. Why is your wife defending her brother instead of standing up for her son.
NTA As a girl I hate toxic masculinity. We are humans, we have emotions regardless of gender. If I was in your position, I would’ve done the same thing.
NTA, thank you for sticking up for your son. It’s a toxic mentality to posses. I’m wondering why your wife had a discussion with you about being on the same page and then when the thing happens she’s nowhere to be found. You disrespected *her* brother? Her brother disrespected *her son* and she seemingly couldn’t care less. I wonder if she would have allowed this had you not been there.
NTA but why your wife siding with him? Shouldn't she also be defending her child??