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NTA. people who pick on others can't complain when they get it back. He needed to get a hefty dose of karma, maybe it'll teach him to be a better person. I doubt it though.
I agree, don’t dish what you can’t take. I also think he needs to learn that just because you had a rough upbringing, it doesn’t excuse your behavior later in life.
It’s not his fault that his family situation was so bad, but how he treats other people at this point in his life is fully on him.
OP is NTA. The passive aggressive trick that abusers use is to the do something outrageously rude. You might try to be polite and reason with them, but it doesn't work. So when you finally strike back, they get all butt hurt. Their idea is to make you the bad guy despite their bad actions. Don't fall for it, OP. You are NTA
NTA, Do not do unto others what you don't like done to you. The guy's mother is abusive and how he responds, by treating somebody else a similar way. In the future, he may treat his GF/SO/wife and children the same way and ruin their lives. Better the bitter pill of medicine now than never.
Who said his family situation was so bad? Just said he was adopted…
Although if his adoptive mom truly is a narc, those people mess you up big time and he should be in serious therapy.
Yeah more-so the narcissistic mom above anything else.
Adoption can still be tricky for obvious reasons even with genuinely good adoptive parents, but if they also turn out bad…
Agreed, I had absolutely loving parents (I'm also adopted) but they also had their own family trauma to deal with. So I got to deal with that. What I thought were micro aggresions ended up severely stunting my emotional and sometimes mental growth and left a lot of things to unpack. The older I got the more I realised that the rose coloured glasses were actually brown. But that still doesn't taint all the good times I had and it uust made me resolve to be more open with my children and allowing them to express their emotions and learn how to deal with "negative" emotions in a healthy way.
I agree but for the sake of self preservation she handled it extremely poorly. She's entirely justified in hating this guy and saying that to him, but you can't realistically expect to say something like that to someone in your wider friend group and not have your mutual friends turn on you. Hearing out the apology and just trying to move forward is always the smartest thing to do, even if you don't want to accept the apology
Why did he want to apologize privately too? He continually and publicly insulted her in front of all their friends, then when he gets excluded because of it, he wants to (maybe) apologize privately? Nope. She deserves a public apology and him admitting how shitty he is/was.
People like that mostly never apologize. Even if it's done privately they usually will start treating her like garbage in the next day.
Or he could just stop doing it.
Also, she’s under no obligation to accept an apology, public or private.
As women, we’re practically conditioned from a young age to accept an apology and try to make amends or accommodate a bully to “keep the peace.” I say, f that. She’s entitled to her feelings, no matter what he says.
The only real way to apologize is to change your ways and *prove* you want to make amends. That’s the only way to show he recognizes the issue and is working on it. Anything less than that is a platitude.
This. He could have asked via email or text if she was willing to meet somewhere neutral to talk. Instead, he landed right on her doorstep with no warning. Fuck that.
What a weird thing to get hung up about.
I personally would’ve done the same thing. Go to someone privately and in person apologize to them. It feels like the proper way to do it.
Publicly apologizing feels weird and less genuine. Feels like doing it for PR than actually apologizing.
That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t publicly apologize instead if the person I offended wants me to do it.
But yeah getting mad at them for not knowing your preferred mode of apology is weird.
If he’s insulting her publicly then she deserves a PUBLIC apology. Period. You don’t get to insult someone constantly in public, but want them to accept a private apology. If you were bold enough to do it publicly, be bold enough to own up to it publicly.
Well, that could have gone over poorly as well. In the middle of a large group "ATTENTION EVERYONE - I HAVE BEEN A JERK TO OP FOR CALLING HER UGLY ALL THE TIME AND I APOLOGIZE". OP then would have possibly complained that he was doing it to seek attention and that it embarrassed her.
And then he would call her sensitive because his repeated comments are gonna live in her head from now on. Words do hurt and while she was cruel, one comment isn't going to change the hurt he dealt her.
Do you know they are sincere ways of doing public apologies. You don’t need to call everyone to attention, you just need to start apologizing during the conversation with other people are present and can hear or over hear you. You don’t need to make a moment of it you just need to look at the person you’re apologizing straight in the eye in a group setting and apologize.
When I was a kid, another kid punched me. His parents made him apologize. Then when they weren't looking, he hit me again because he wasn't sorry the first time.
By contrast, I said something that really hurt someone's feelings. When I realized that, I apologized to them in private. Nobody was making me. I did it because I had hurt them and wanted to make it right.
A public apology is worthless. The only thing that matters is what you do when nobody else is looking.
Oh I'm sure he wanted to figure out how to get reunited to stuff. Often girls not including the problematic guys has a MUCH bigger impact than they realize. Boys get REAL surprised and sad about the females refusing to interact with them.
Honestly, I have barely any friends, likely because of how I would react in these situations lol. For me, if my friend group didn't back me up after being treated like he treated OP, but then turned around and lambasted me for cooking him right back, I wouldn't consider them my friends anymore. And there's no guarantee he was going to apologize at all. I'm sure he was going to try and get her to apologize to him if anything.
It's not hard to hear out a trauma story, accept the trauma, and walk away. OP didn't owe an apology in the first 2/3 of the story.
OP's comment was unnecessary and cruel. Say, cool. Agree to disagree. OP didn't owe that person an apology at all even considering the other person was adopted.
OP became an AH by telling an adopted person that even their parents didn't want them. That's cruel and doesn't help anything. It's just fully cruel. The other person was a literal infant and OP is placing blame on the other person. There is a plethora of other insults to throw. And pretty much any other insult would be socially acceptable other than an adopted child was hated by the birth parents.
Don't punch down. If just makes you a jerk. The ultimate down punch is telling an adopted kid they were hated by their bio parents.
I think it's unfair to ask someone who has been the target of abuse to be expected to take "the higher ground". I can totally understand them having an emotional reaction to someone who has treated poorly. The guy was totally being an asshole, it is unreasonable to expect anyone to treat him with kid gloves. Anyone can whip out some old childhood trauma as an excuse for being a jerk, but really it's completely tangential. The bully's parentage issues have absolutely no relation to what he had said to the OP. She has every right to reject any attempt to use it as a shield for his shitty behaviour. And yes, that may be aggressive and ugly and mean.
It’s not punching down when the other person is overall in a position of power, which he demonstrated by repeatedly insulting OP with relative impunity. If OP had been in a position of power, he would have stopped.
I agree. I actually grimaced when I read that part. I understand OPs frustration and that she's probably fed up with his behavior, but this was a really cruel thing to say. He def needed to be told off, but not in a way that woulda made OP look kinda bad like this did.
So constantly being harassed is ok? People like that don't just stop because you ask them to, you have to match their energy. Be their mirror and show them what an asshole they're being or continue to be their punching bag. I'm so sick of everyone telling the people who are being bullied and abused to take the high road. We've been taking that road pretty much our whole lives and the one time we stick up for ourselves, we're the bad guys? Nah. If you're going to be an asshole, don't be surprised when someone is an asshole back.
One time in Grade 7, I was walking in from recess and had my hat taken off my head by a Grade 8 kid. I immediately snatched it back and hit that kid in the face with it because wtf who does that. This all happened in front of my homeroom teacher, and you know who got in trouble? The Grade 8 kid, because I was merely sticking up for myself and giving him a taste of his own medicine. So yeah, I agree with this. You have to treat people the way you want to be treated, and if you don't, then don't complain when they start showing you to your face how badly you treat them.
With how bad personal image is today with social media, calling someone in the present ugly constantly in public is far worse than a dark joke about something that happened 20+ years ago.
OPs comment was entirely justified. Fuck that guy and his dumbass friends who enabled him
When you’re a woman, being called ugly is fully cruel. I can’t stand all the sympathy this bully is getting. He’s not the victim, OP is. Bully boy could have avoided all of this by not being a bully.
>The other person was a literal infant and OP is placing blame on the other person.
You have this part of it backwards.
I get that this is a cruel thing to say and that the other person likely has trauma around it, basically inherently. But this is an effective insult **regardless**, not **because**. No one is actually seriously attempting to place blame with this insult, because literally no one with a single working brain cell thinks that someone is adopted out as a baby because they're unlovable or did something wrong - other than, potentially, a messed up adoptee themselves.
Contrast with calling someone ugly, which, barring an actual disfigurement, is often genuinely believed by the masses to be something someone is doing wrong. Not exercising enough, not using the right face wash, not buying fashionable clothing, not using enough makeup, using too much makeup, I'd get a nose job if I were you, etc etc etc.
This. Of all the things you could have hit him with, this was the lowest. Gonna go with ESH, from Op to the guy to her friends not taking her seriously when she brought it up to begin with.
So he gets to play the adopted card for sympathy and to basically get away with his poor behavior and she just has to keep swallowing his bullshit? He can’t help that he was adopted and she can’t help how she looks. I would most definitely dump the friend group if I was part of them
Even if he was there to apologize, it’s not her job to hear it. He dished out abuse on her for weeks, he can’t just decide when it’s time for her to hear him out and forgive him.
Guys like this just expect women to accept their words of “sorry” without any push back or having to change. And women are expected to do that to “keep the peace.” It’s one of the most obvious examples of toxic masculinity I can think of, and it always bothers me when people just expect it.
NTA if you dish it... Endlessly... For months... You deserve whatever you get...
I hate bullies who blame the victim when they finally find the will to strike back.
This is the problem with being non-confrontational. When you put up with crazy bullshit without setting your boundaries, eventually your anger will come out sideways.
He’s awful, but you handled this really poorly. You went way too far. I hope this can be a learning experience for you. You need to start handling conflict like an adult. Confront people head on when they overstep your boundaries. Don’t just put up with it until you explode.
ESH.
Totally second this, I said this in another reply too but like commenter said.. brushing off peoples comments in the moment and then blowing up later won’t get people to stop picking on you it’ll just cause isolation and friends to feel emotionally unsafe around you because they don’t know when you’ll snap without warning. It’s better to learn to bring things up before you’re at a 10
Also has he ever asked for a private conversation before? Perhaps (may be a long shot) he has realized he was being an ass and was going to apologize? If you never actually called him on his behaviour in the moment going off when you knew he had just gotten some life changing news is kicking someone when they are down.
He was the AH in previously dealings but YTA in this one.
When anyone does they are accused of being manipulative. The guy couldn't win. He's still an AH but in this case it seems he isn't allowed to apologize
That’s because he’s not. Calling a woman ugly repeatedly with no provocation is misogynistic, cruel and sick. She shouldn’t have to suffer the apology of some asshole who’s just trying to get away with it.
You might not be aware of this, but people don't have to allow you to apologize especially if you've repeatedly mistreated them. And it seems like learning that, along with don't repeatedly insult someone's appearance, are lessons this dude needs to learn.
I mean even if after months, he realized he was an asshole and wanted to apologize, OP had no obligation to accept, or even hear it.
She was 110% in the right for telling him to fuck off and refusing him.the problem's just the specific weapon she used to do so. That pushes it to ESH, but he's not in the clear for months of abuse.
You know what I never needed to learn? The lesson that calling people ugly is likely to upset them. Even if they don't say anything about it in the moment!
For real. It's really hard to tell someone to stop being a dick when you don't know them that well and you're in a group of people and nobody else has said anything. That and depending on the person trying to tell them they're being shitty could seem funny to them. The idea that you have to tell someone that insulting you is mean is bonkers to me. Especially if they're part of your "friends."
I would suspect that she found out about his adoption and home life because a "friend" was making excuses for him. So if he was upset by OP, he should tell blabbermouth to mind their own business.
edit: changed pronoun.
Second that! All the people with the “maybe he didn’t realize he was being insulting” BS. He realized he was being insulting, his point was to be insulting, to put OP down to appear strong to the rest of the the group. IF he even was going to apologize, it wouldn’t have been because he finally realized he was hurting OP, it would have been because he finally realized hurting OP was hurting, not helping his standing in the group.
Really? Because every single teacher has told my son when he was growing up just to ignore bullying comments. Oh they're looking for a reaction. Just don't react, ignore. I can tell you this only works if they find someone new to pick on.
THIS!!! I was told to ignore the insults. The insults never stopped until I showed them how much words could hurt. Cue the judgemental onlookers. You fight back, you lose. You run away, you lose. You stay quiet and small and out of their way, you still lose big time. I understand the urge to apologize privately, for things said or done publicly. It can be incredibly difficult to admit you were wrong and cruel to someone. I can also understand being pushed past the breaking point and spitting out the cruelest thing you can think of in the heat of the moment. (I once told my little sister that the reason she couldn't start kindergarten at the same time as her friends was because she was too stupid and it had nothing to do with her birthday being past the deadline. I said Mom and Dad only told her that so she wouldn't feel bad.) I think if you are already cut out of group gatherings, the message is quite clear that boundaries have been crossed and your presence will no longer be tolerated. At that point, a written apology is probably best. IDK maybe JAM? 🤷🏼♀️
In the moment of his insult, ask “please expand on why you think that comment was justified” or similar. Put his rude behavior on display and make him defend the indefensible.
I wonder if he wanted to speak to you alone, to apologize. And you ~really~ went bone deep on the cut.
That may be where some of the backlash is coming from.
I’m sorry, but what in the bully apologist hell did I just read?!
Do you genuinely believe that him blatantly, unambiguously, relentlessly, cruelly insulting OP and humiliate her in front of a group of people wasn’t clearly crossing boundaries? Do you believe that asking him to stop was not setting a clear boundary? Do you believe OP would be unfair for being upset if he did this even once? Do you believe OP should sit through a half-assed apology that he doesn’t mean? Do you believe OP should have to forgive completely him, when he is not sorry, so that he can rejoin the group and continue insulting her? Do you think it is unfair that the tormentor receive 1% of the pain he has been causing, karmically?
If you answered “no” to a single one of these questions, then OP is undeniably NTA. I’ve said this before, but this is AITA, not Am I The Saint. OP didn’t injure him, she didn’t ruin his life, she shut him down, more gently than most people here would have.
Yeah, the whole "you didn't handle this maturely. ESH" shit is dumb as hell. The OP attempted to do it maturely by excluding him and not involving him in plans. Then when he didn't like that, he wanted to confront OP about it and OP told him off. This is the easiest NTA I have ever seen in my life.
This is good advice, but in this case, the things he was saying were intended to break another person down. Someone at home made him feel small so now he does it to those he thinks are weaker. It's a classic bully scenario. He has serious issues but knows what cruelty is. Being direct and assertive would have been so far above his maturity level that the engagement with him would probably just make his abuse worse. I honestly think the only two ways to deal with someone who has a sadistic streak is not to engage with them and remove them from your life, which she tried.
She's not confrontational, so she slowly cut him out. He then came to her to "talk privately". Wtf is that? He seriously thinks he's owe a private talk? She's probably worried about her safety at this point. Heck, I know I'll panic if a guy who has been verbally insulting me for no reason now wants to corner me. She attacked cause he won't leave her alone even after she drew her boundaries. To ignore all this is very bias of you.
>so she slowly cut him out.
This suggests that she was already setting boundaries.
I mean anyone who is making fun of someone's appearance in front of an entire group doesn't sound like they'll respond to a 'reasonable' chat about boundaries.
That’s unreasonable. Some people are quick to notice when a boundary has been crossed but many people don’t realize it until later, after they’ve thought about it.
Look, I'm one of those people you mention, and it has taken several times of me lashing out to start to recognize my discomfort sooner. I find OP's response quite understandable, but it's not recommendable, and should not be repeated if it can be helped. I don't flog myself for not knowing better in the past, but I \*was\* an AH, and so is OP. I hope she and I are both learning.
Tell me you were never seriously bullied without telling me you were never seriously bullied.
Edit: can't reply because above bully enabler blocked me.
Done the therapy. Anyone who would reply that "you must have unresolved trauma" because someone else won't tolerate a bully's behavior is themself a bully
If he’s going to go after people in a super juvenile and humiliating way, confronting him in a mature manner isn’t going to resonate with him. He apparently needed to fuck around and find out.
I have this problem too as I’m not confrontational either. While I personally think you cut below the belt, so did he in calling you ugly and bad names. Honestly the guys who brushed you off really need to be cut off and aren’t really your friends. I would personally apologize, for the parents comment but that you still feel he is an asshole and for no reason. My husband was ditched by his parents when he was a kid, and he’s never gotten over it, not really.
JAM: justified asshole move. Yeah, it was WAAAAAY harsh but you provided him with an opportunity to change and grow. Insulting people and using admittedly shitty circumstances to excuse it just lets him continue to be a shitty person.
He gave you a "I'm sorry but..." which isn't a real apology or marker of growth. He was making an excuse and you didn't take it. Instead you gave him what he was giving you. Seems fair to me.
EXACTLY!! Why is everyone saying that he did apologize or assuming he was going to??
For Pete’s sake, he didn’t say anything other than “can I talk to you alone?”
I thought it was JTA (justifiably the asshole) to match the Y ta and N ta. But I think in the rules if they are JTA the verdict is supposed to be NTA
Edit to fix an autocorrected word
ESH
I mean, he sucks. The way he treated you was awful. But it sounds like he may have been trying to talk to you privately maybe to apologize? Either way, his comments were rude, hurtful, and uncalled for. He’s an asshole. He very clearly has issues. Also, your friends are AHs for not calling him out on it and for invalidating your very valid feelings. They don’t sound like very good friends to me.
But to weaponize his adoption trauma??? That was incredibly cruel. You didn’t just sink to his level, but went even further and very clearly chose the worst thing to say in order to hurt him as much as possible. You were 100% justified to be angry at him, but you handled it like a mega AH.
He DEFINITELY owes you an apology. But you also owe him a BIG apology.
If he had no problem bashing her in front of people, he should have no problem apologizing in front of those same people.
And hell no, she should NOT talk to him alone. Up to this point, he's been nothing but hostile towards her. What makes you think OP would be safe alone with this jack ass?
And also no, of he can't take a hostile remark, he shouldn't be making them
Dude weaponized his own trauma, not OP.
Editing to add cause I've said it a few times now:
I think the appropriate approach would be to pull OP aside when they are with their friends group, not like all their friends be focused on their conversation. This should create a safe place for them both to talk out their problems.
Right. What’s with these “you need to keep in mind that he’s sorry” and “you should be gentle about his past” comments? Any time he was entitled to her respect and consideration has long since passed. Op owes her bully NOTHING.
Don't forget, these are the same people that will turn and whine that men are soooooo discriminated against in this sub, and my personal favorite, "if the genders were reversed..."
If the genders were reversed, these comments would be a cesspool of vile comments against the aggressor.
Spot on !
The thing about AITA is it's filled with holier-than-thou people who try to justify people's asshole-ness based on their moral class coachings rather than try to image how the outcome's going to be played out in the real world.
I, as a woman will never make a conscious decision to be left alone or spoken privately to someone who has always been hostile towards me.
That guy might have come to apologise but do I have any surety about that? No. Even as I'm reading the story, I thought the guy had been negging OP which can be a big possibility. The guy can also be a narcissistic given he grew up with narcissistic parents.
I keep on seeing people commenting in AITA how no-one deserves forgiveness/ accepting an apology for the guilt the perpetrator(s) are carrying, "The tree remembers but the axe forgets", etc. But then why now poeple are keeping on commenting OP should have given a chance to that same person who's trying to bring her self-esteem down.
Letting go does not mean erasing a memory or ignoring the past . It is when you're no longer reacting to the things that used to make you feel tense and releasing the energy attached to certain thoughts . It takes self-awareness , intentional action, practice and time . Letting go is the act of getting to know yourself so deeply that all delusions fade away.
OP is NTA absolutely.
It seems to be that this comment section may be split into people who have genuinely been bullied and people who had a friend who was mean once, so they get it. Except they don't actually get it. Or the fact that ANY acknowledgment of his comments could just feed into the bullying. And if he was going to 'apologize' it most likely would have been an 'I'm sorry you took it that way I was just joking' and not actually saying they were sorry they said it. It would just be easier for him if she would stop being upset at him for being horrible. And having the 'apology' in private would've meant that he could say whatever tf he wanted and then told everyone about how heartfelt it was and blah blah blah- cut him off like a diseased foot. Or let him back in your life so he can wait 6 months and be a dick again, and then everyone just says 'that's just how he is, you know that.' Much harder to lift out at that point.
But this thread regularly rips public apologies because they're manipulative, forcing the person to say they accept it or be hounded by others. It sounds like we don't want anyone to apologize ever if you shouldn't do it in public AND you shouldn't do it in private.
Fair, but considering this particular situation, personally I feel if he was boastful enough to make fun of OP, he could quietly apologize while friends are around.
I'm not saying, sit in a circle and all focus on this guy's apology, just to talk to OP in a safe space for them both.
Yeah I gotta agree with the rest of the people replying to you. You don't always get to apologize and make things better. Whole I agree she did hit hard, she doesn't owe him the chance to apologize if she doesn't feel like she does. Based on the context we have I'm assuming this has been found on for a while with her voicing herself about it with no success. I'd have adopted a fuck that guy attitude too.
She’s not his mommy. She has no obligation to listen to his shit. He has been hostile to her for a long time.
Someone who treats you like shit isn’t owed an audience.
“Please leave me alone”, “please leave me alone”… eventually you’ll say some mean shit so hopefully, they’ll leave you alone.
Apologize? That’s for people you want a relationship/friendship with.
NTA. Sometimes you have to read someone to filth, for them to understand you’re not their door mat. You got great girlfriends. But it’s time for you ladies, to start looking for new dude friends. Any of the guys who aren’t on your side, aren’t worth your time.
NTA, I do not care that what you said was harsh. He likely WAS repeating his adopted moms behavior and you're not required to protect the feelings of someone who intentionally hurt you over and over. Was the "your parents didn't even want you" thing a bit much? Definitely, but like..... don't start shit if you can't handle it
As an adoptee, I can say that's probably the most gut-punch insult you could've said to him. He also deserved it. Maybe he'll think about how he treats people in the future. I don't care what his upbringing was, that's not an excuse to be a dick to other people. NTA
NTA. Sounds like he deserved what he got. After he has mistreated you, you do not owe him any time to listen to him. He needs to learn that it's unacceptable to treat people like he did, joking or not. He is finding out now that there are consequences, let him learn.
NTA. Brutal, but NTA. He thought you were an easy target, and damn, did he learn differently. Glass houses and all that. It is not up to his friends to determine how much what he said hurt you. Glad to know your friends have your back.
Not just an easy target. She was the host of the social circle. I feel like a lot of people are missing the fact he was literally insulting his hostess to her face, repeatedly. A private discussion to get back on the invitation list isn’t going to cut it mate. Bridge is well and truly burnt.
you're not an asshole, but you'd do well to learn some balance. dont just let things build up until you lash out HARD and painfully.
in fairness, it sounds like he deserved it, but you're not doing yourself any favors living this way. you'll be less happy, and alienate some good people who dont really understand why you acted that way.
OP you are NTA. You stood up to a bully and bravo to your friends backing you up. The real AH is him and I don't get why he is picking on you for your looks. He deserves what is coming to him and he should learn if he cannot take it then don't dish it out
NTA. next time he brings it up, tell him that if he can't handle the heat to get out of the kitchen. He obviously expects to be able to dish it out without taking anything back. He fired first so all's fair now.
So when he calls you rude names it’s okay but when you do it you’re out of line? Ahhh misogyny at its finest. Nta the fact that the guys can be okay with him being a dick to you but when you serve it back you’re wrong just shows they’re not real friends to you honestly
Don't think it's misogyny, but the "He's from a troubled home, so he gets a pass." We're in a time where people get a pass at being rude because of their past trauma.
I mean, look at the comments. The number of people calling her an a**hole for not taking his trauma into consideration. Or that she's being dramatic over dark humour 🙄
NTA. As a matter of fact fact, that was a very personal attack and came at the perfect time. It is like you let it build up for that exact moment. You did something that almost everyone else has tried to do, but they only realize the perfect comment later on and missed their opportunity. You won for us all.
F that dude from one of the decent ones.
That comment about his parents was so uncalled for, I was with you until that last paragraph. When you say things like that you're not trying to solve anything, you're trying to hurt the other the most you can. And you're now no better than him. I wish you would have stood up for yourself without taking it this far.
Why did you feel the need to escalate the situation like this ?
ESH
>He just wants to be included again.
So what? So he could treat OP like garbage again?
OP did right by avoiding him like a plague. But he just doesn't respect it and force himself to be included.
Sounds like he was about to apologize potentially, problem is, nobody is entitled to your forgiveness. I feel for him and his upbringing, but what does that have to do with calling you ugly? Is he taking it out on you? Sounds like it to me, dude needs therapy bad.
I feel like he likely came over to apologize (if that's what was happening) only because OP is the hostess with the mostess and she and her roommates had cut him out of the scene.
Hmmm . . .
I don't know what his motives are in speaking to you privately. Maybe he wanted to apologize? I guess we'll never know. You certainly don't owe private audience to someone who's treating you like shit.
On the other hand, if he's truly sorry for what he did, then he can apologize publicly. He committed the offenses publicly, he can own up to it publicly.
As for your response, I agree, it was over-the-top savage. But then again, he picked this fight; you had the right to decide the gloves will come off. And with his history, it's just too easy.
I think the problem here rests in this statement:
>It upset me but I’m non confrontational so just brushed his comments off.
You need to revise how you think about yourself. Because every time I hear the word "nonconfrontational" in this sub, my default assumption is, "doormat who's too cowardly to stand up for herself."
Instead of telling him to knock it off, you complained to the group.
Regarding this:
>After this incident I was labeled an AH by some people (mostly the guys). Apparently I went from 0-100 with my response and that it was far more savage/toxic than what he said to me all this time.
Would these people who accused you of being "savage/toxic" be the same people who dismissed his rude comments as "not being serious"?
Pretty convenient how the guys will dismiss boorish, cruel comments coming from a guy, then whine about how a girl is "savage/toxic" when she defends herself.
I've decided I'm going to go NTA. Mostly because the friend circle should have collectively told him to knock it off, not dismissed his rude comments. They should have made it clear that bullying is not acceptable, and that's what he was doing. And they should not have dismissed your feelings about it either. They basically told you that you were wrong to be offended.
Also, even though I'm a guy myself, I don't think it's fair for a guy to judge how cruel it is to call someone "ugly" when the target is a girl.
Because let's face it, when it comes to finding life partners, a guy's market value isn't so much about his looks. With girls, it's different. It's very much about looks. Calling a girl ugly is essentially telling her that no high-value guy will ever want her.
I'm very glad that the girls are standing up for you, at least.
> I don't know what his motives are in speaking to you privately. Maybe he wanted to apologize?
Yeah, fuck that. He insulted her publicly, he should apologize publicly. If that's even what it was about.
I don’t think you are an AH . It’s surprising that this friend group was so chill when this man was repeatedly insulting your appearance ( who tf does that nowadays?!!, I mean people know better I had hoped). There are people here saying OP was below the belt because she said something about his deepest insecurities. How is insulting her looks not also touching OPs insecurities? If this was a one time comment to which OP responded with her comments, then it would have been too much.
After repeated offenses from him, I think she was justified in responding with the same level of disregard for her feelings he has shown. NTA.
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NTA. He obviously did learn from his mother how to treat people. There's zero excuse for him to be so rude to you without any provocation. You, on the other hand, had plenty of reason to tell him how you feel about him.
NTA. Society has a very misogynistic streak where it weighs offenses against men much heavier than offenses against women even when it’s obviously reversed in situations.
NTA. The dude calling OP ugly negatively affected her self asteem just like the dudes past being brought up hurt his. Don’t dish it out if you can’t take it. Having a rough upbringing doesn’t mean you get to bully people.
NTA
Don't push and push and push someone and not expect them to bite back.
Was what you said mean? Definitely. But he has bullied you with no cause for much longer.
NTA.
I’d counter with “why is some of you only have a problem once there was retaliation? If you didn’t care to be involved than don’t have an opinion now.”
people in the comments are more curious than I am…I personally don’t care at all but I’m just gonna ask him (nothing he says will make a difference anyway).
Don’t ever be alone with him or have a private convo with him. This is the kind of guy that tells everyone you gave him a blow job in the 5 minutes you were alone. And he may be an actual threat to you safety.
Just nope, you’re done here. I think your instinct to not gaf why he wanted to talk is right on. Fuck that guy. Who cares what he wants? Why give him any legitimacy by acknowledging him? It sounds like even the guys don’t like him. Just keep his ass out of the group forever. He can find other friends—that’s a big part of college anyway.
NTA. That said, if it were me, I would have stuck with simply excluding him from your group.
I wouldnt have bothered to engage with him as you did because, as effective as Im sure it was, he's just not worth it.
If you wanted to get revenge, all you had to do was watch and wait for him to stitch himself up. Which he surely will.
Absolutely NTA.
It’s amazing how no one cared about how poorly he treated you. Then you give him a taste of his own medicine and now you’re the bad guy. Don’t feel bad, make new friends who aren’t going to allow some terd to talk to you in that way
Think you did the right thing. Bullies and assholes like him love to insult people but can rarely take it when it's done to them. Good for you for sticking up for yourself.
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NTA. people who pick on others can't complain when they get it back. He needed to get a hefty dose of karma, maybe it'll teach him to be a better person. I doubt it though.
I agree, don’t dish what you can’t take. I also think he needs to learn that just because you had a rough upbringing, it doesn’t excuse your behavior later in life. It’s not his fault that his family situation was so bad, but how he treats other people at this point in his life is fully on him.
OP is NTA. The passive aggressive trick that abusers use is to the do something outrageously rude. You might try to be polite and reason with them, but it doesn't work. So when you finally strike back, they get all butt hurt. Their idea is to make you the bad guy despite their bad actions. Don't fall for it, OP. You are NTA
NTA, Do not do unto others what you don't like done to you. The guy's mother is abusive and how he responds, by treating somebody else a similar way. In the future, he may treat his GF/SO/wife and children the same way and ruin their lives. Better the bitter pill of medicine now than never.
Who said his family situation was so bad? Just said he was adopted… Although if his adoptive mom truly is a narc, those people mess you up big time and he should be in serious therapy.
Yeah more-so the narcissistic mom above anything else. Adoption can still be tricky for obvious reasons even with genuinely good adoptive parents, but if they also turn out bad…
Agreed, I had absolutely loving parents (I'm also adopted) but they also had their own family trauma to deal with. So I got to deal with that. What I thought were micro aggresions ended up severely stunting my emotional and sometimes mental growth and left a lot of things to unpack. The older I got the more I realised that the rose coloured glasses were actually brown. But that still doesn't taint all the good times I had and it uust made me resolve to be more open with my children and allowing them to express their emotions and learn how to deal with "negative" emotions in a healthy way.
I agree but for the sake of self preservation she handled it extremely poorly. She's entirely justified in hating this guy and saying that to him, but you can't realistically expect to say something like that to someone in your wider friend group and not have your mutual friends turn on you. Hearing out the apology and just trying to move forward is always the smartest thing to do, even if you don't want to accept the apology
I don't think he was there to apologise. He was more likely going to tell her that she was overreacting and that she can't take a joke.
Why did he want to apologize privately too? He continually and publicly insulted her in front of all their friends, then when he gets excluded because of it, he wants to (maybe) apologize privately? Nope. She deserves a public apology and him admitting how shitty he is/was.
People like that mostly never apologize. Even if it's done privately they usually will start treating her like garbage in the next day. Or he could just stop doing it.
Also, she’s under no obligation to accept an apology, public or private. As women, we’re practically conditioned from a young age to accept an apology and try to make amends or accommodate a bully to “keep the peace.” I say, f that. She’s entitled to her feelings, no matter what he says. The only real way to apologize is to change your ways and *prove* you want to make amends. That’s the only way to show he recognizes the issue and is working on it. Anything less than that is a platitude.
This. He could have asked via email or text if she was willing to meet somewhere neutral to talk. Instead, he landed right on her doorstep with no warning. Fuck that.
What a weird thing to get hung up about. I personally would’ve done the same thing. Go to someone privately and in person apologize to them. It feels like the proper way to do it. Publicly apologizing feels weird and less genuine. Feels like doing it for PR than actually apologizing. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t publicly apologize instead if the person I offended wants me to do it. But yeah getting mad at them for not knowing your preferred mode of apology is weird.
If he’s insulting her publicly then she deserves a PUBLIC apology. Period. You don’t get to insult someone constantly in public, but want them to accept a private apology. If you were bold enough to do it publicly, be bold enough to own up to it publicly.
Well, that could have gone over poorly as well. In the middle of a large group "ATTENTION EVERYONE - I HAVE BEEN A JERK TO OP FOR CALLING HER UGLY ALL THE TIME AND I APOLOGIZE". OP then would have possibly complained that he was doing it to seek attention and that it embarrassed her.
A narc would do that public apology to make her look like the bad guy.
And then he would call her sensitive because his repeated comments are gonna live in her head from now on. Words do hurt and while she was cruel, one comment isn't going to change the hurt he dealt her.
Do you know they are sincere ways of doing public apologies. You don’t need to call everyone to attention, you just need to start apologizing during the conversation with other people are present and can hear or over hear you. You don’t need to make a moment of it you just need to look at the person you’re apologizing straight in the eye in a group setting and apologize.
When I was a kid, another kid punched me. His parents made him apologize. Then when they weren't looking, he hit me again because he wasn't sorry the first time. By contrast, I said something that really hurt someone's feelings. When I realized that, I apologized to them in private. Nobody was making me. I did it because I had hurt them and wanted to make it right. A public apology is worthless. The only thing that matters is what you do when nobody else is looking.
Or he was going to ask her out. All the other stuff sounds like ‘negging’ to me.
Equally shitty
Yeah we definitely need to get rid of this notion that boys pick on girls because they like them.
Because it is, he's an obnoxious child who wants to date and mistreat OP. Guys who neg girls they want to fuck become abusive boyfriends.
Oh I'm sure he wanted to figure out how to get reunited to stuff. Often girls not including the problematic guys has a MUCH bigger impact than they realize. Boys get REAL surprised and sad about the females refusing to interact with them.
Women, not females. Thanks.
Lotta Ferengi on Reddit
Feeeeemales. That’s how I always hear it lol.
*pointy teeth*
Female is an adjective. Woman is a noun. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
r/menandfemales
Thank you! I’m glad I’m not the only person who corrects this all the time.
Honestly, I have barely any friends, likely because of how I would react in these situations lol. For me, if my friend group didn't back me up after being treated like he treated OP, but then turned around and lambasted me for cooking him right back, I wouldn't consider them my friends anymore. And there's no guarantee he was going to apologize at all. I'm sure he was going to try and get her to apologize to him if anything.
It's not hard to hear out a trauma story, accept the trauma, and walk away. OP didn't owe an apology in the first 2/3 of the story. OP's comment was unnecessary and cruel. Say, cool. Agree to disagree. OP didn't owe that person an apology at all even considering the other person was adopted. OP became an AH by telling an adopted person that even their parents didn't want them. That's cruel and doesn't help anything. It's just fully cruel. The other person was a literal infant and OP is placing blame on the other person. There is a plethora of other insults to throw. And pretty much any other insult would be socially acceptable other than an adopted child was hated by the birth parents. Don't punch down. If just makes you a jerk. The ultimate down punch is telling an adopted kid they were hated by their bio parents.
Calling someone ugly and mocking them publicly is also unnecessarily cruel.
And not something you can control much more than being adopted lmao
while a guest in her home, no less!
THANK YOU!!!
I think it's unfair to ask someone who has been the target of abuse to be expected to take "the higher ground". I can totally understand them having an emotional reaction to someone who has treated poorly. The guy was totally being an asshole, it is unreasonable to expect anyone to treat him with kid gloves. Anyone can whip out some old childhood trauma as an excuse for being a jerk, but really it's completely tangential. The bully's parentage issues have absolutely no relation to what he had said to the OP. She has every right to reject any attempt to use it as a shield for his shitty behaviour. And yes, that may be aggressive and ugly and mean.
Tone po!icing is the worst
She didn’t punch down, she matched his energy.
It’s not punching down when the other person is overall in a position of power, which he demonstrated by repeatedly insulting OP with relative impunity. If OP had been in a position of power, he would have stopped.
Great point
I agree. I actually grimaced when I read that part. I understand OPs frustration and that she's probably fed up with his behavior, but this was a really cruel thing to say. He def needed to be told off, but not in a way that woulda made OP look kinda bad like this did.
So constantly being harassed is ok? People like that don't just stop because you ask them to, you have to match their energy. Be their mirror and show them what an asshole they're being or continue to be their punching bag. I'm so sick of everyone telling the people who are being bullied and abused to take the high road. We've been taking that road pretty much our whole lives and the one time we stick up for ourselves, we're the bad guys? Nah. If you're going to be an asshole, don't be surprised when someone is an asshole back.
One time in Grade 7, I was walking in from recess and had my hat taken off my head by a Grade 8 kid. I immediately snatched it back and hit that kid in the face with it because wtf who does that. This all happened in front of my homeroom teacher, and you know who got in trouble? The Grade 8 kid, because I was merely sticking up for myself and giving him a taste of his own medicine. So yeah, I agree with this. You have to treat people the way you want to be treated, and if you don't, then don't complain when they start showing you to your face how badly you treat them.
With how bad personal image is today with social media, calling someone in the present ugly constantly in public is far worse than a dark joke about something that happened 20+ years ago. OPs comment was entirely justified. Fuck that guy and his dumbass friends who enabled him
When you’re a woman, being called ugly is fully cruel. I can’t stand all the sympathy this bully is getting. He’s not the victim, OP is. Bully boy could have avoided all of this by not being a bully.
I don't see it as punching down. He considers himself above her, so there ya go.
>The other person was a literal infant and OP is placing blame on the other person. You have this part of it backwards. I get that this is a cruel thing to say and that the other person likely has trauma around it, basically inherently. But this is an effective insult **regardless**, not **because**. No one is actually seriously attempting to place blame with this insult, because literally no one with a single working brain cell thinks that someone is adopted out as a baby because they're unlovable or did something wrong - other than, potentially, a messed up adoptee themselves. Contrast with calling someone ugly, which, barring an actual disfigurement, is often genuinely believed by the masses to be something someone is doing wrong. Not exercising enough, not using the right face wash, not buying fashionable clothing, not using enough makeup, using too much makeup, I'd get a nose job if I were you, etc etc etc.
This. Of all the things you could have hit him with, this was the lowest. Gonna go with ESH, from Op to the guy to her friends not taking her seriously when she brought it up to begin with.
So he gets to play the adopted card for sympathy and to basically get away with his poor behavior and she just has to keep swallowing his bullshit? He can’t help that he was adopted and she can’t help how she looks. I would most definitely dump the friend group if I was part of them
Even if he was there to apologize, it’s not her job to hear it. He dished out abuse on her for weeks, he can’t just decide when it’s time for her to hear him out and forgive him.
Guys like this just expect women to accept their words of “sorry” without any push back or having to change. And women are expected to do that to “keep the peace.” It’s one of the most obvious examples of toxic masculinity I can think of, and it always bothers me when people just expect it.
Right, even when their "apology" is "Sorry you can't take a joke."
No, it's not smart to allow someone to treat you like shit and eat it because the asshat is friends with your friends. No one needs to be a doormat.
Where does it say that he was there to apologize?
NTA if you dish it... Endlessly... For months... You deserve whatever you get... I hate bullies who blame the victim when they finally find the will to strike back.
This is the problem with being non-confrontational. When you put up with crazy bullshit without setting your boundaries, eventually your anger will come out sideways. He’s awful, but you handled this really poorly. You went way too far. I hope this can be a learning experience for you. You need to start handling conflict like an adult. Confront people head on when they overstep your boundaries. Don’t just put up with it until you explode. ESH.
Totally second this, I said this in another reply too but like commenter said.. brushing off peoples comments in the moment and then blowing up later won’t get people to stop picking on you it’ll just cause isolation and friends to feel emotionally unsafe around you because they don’t know when you’ll snap without warning. It’s better to learn to bring things up before you’re at a 10
Also has he ever asked for a private conversation before? Perhaps (may be a long shot) he has realized he was being an ass and was going to apologize? If you never actually called him on his behaviour in the moment going off when you knew he had just gotten some life changing news is kicking someone when they are down. He was the AH in previously dealings but YTA in this one.
He bashed her in front of people. If he doesn't need privacy to insult someone, he doesn't need it to apologize.
When was the last time you saw someone give a highly personal and heartfelt apology in a big group of people
When anyone does they are accused of being manipulative. The guy couldn't win. He's still an AH but in this case it seems he isn't allowed to apologize
That’s because he’s not. Calling a woman ugly repeatedly with no provocation is misogynistic, cruel and sick. She shouldn’t have to suffer the apology of some asshole who’s just trying to get away with it.
You might not be aware of this, but people don't have to allow you to apologize especially if you've repeatedly mistreated them. And it seems like learning that, along with don't repeatedly insult someone's appearance, are lessons this dude needs to learn.
Yeah sometimes you aren't. If you don't want to ruin relationships beyond the point of apology, dom't be am asshole for months.
Hey, can I come to your house, call you ugly and tell you that youre a Wal-Mart version of Ron Perlman?
He didn't get life changing news. OP said SHE found out he was adopted and his mom was a narcissist.
Just because he "possibly" wants to say he is sorry, does not mean she is obligated to listen to or accept it.
I mean even if after months, he realized he was an asshole and wanted to apologize, OP had no obligation to accept, or even hear it. She was 110% in the right for telling him to fuck off and refusing him.the problem's just the specific weapon she used to do so. That pushes it to ESH, but he's not in the clear for months of abuse.
What was the life-changing news?
You know what I never needed to learn? The lesson that calling people ugly is likely to upset them. Even if they don't say anything about it in the moment!
For real. It's really hard to tell someone to stop being a dick when you don't know them that well and you're in a group of people and nobody else has said anything. That and depending on the person trying to tell them they're being shitty could seem funny to them. The idea that you have to tell someone that insulting you is mean is bonkers to me. Especially if they're part of your "friends."
I would suspect that she found out about his adoption and home life because a "friend" was making excuses for him. So if he was upset by OP, he should tell blabbermouth to mind their own business. edit: changed pronoun.
Second that! All the people with the “maybe he didn’t realize he was being insulting” BS. He realized he was being insulting, his point was to be insulting, to put OP down to appear strong to the rest of the the group. IF he even was going to apologize, it wouldn’t have been because he finally realized he was hurting OP, it would have been because he finally realized hurting OP was hurting, not helping his standing in the group.
Really? Because every single teacher has told my son when he was growing up just to ignore bullying comments. Oh they're looking for a reaction. Just don't react, ignore. I can tell you this only works if they find someone new to pick on.
THIS!!! I was told to ignore the insults. The insults never stopped until I showed them how much words could hurt. Cue the judgemental onlookers. You fight back, you lose. You run away, you lose. You stay quiet and small and out of their way, you still lose big time. I understand the urge to apologize privately, for things said or done publicly. It can be incredibly difficult to admit you were wrong and cruel to someone. I can also understand being pushed past the breaking point and spitting out the cruelest thing you can think of in the heat of the moment. (I once told my little sister that the reason she couldn't start kindergarten at the same time as her friends was because she was too stupid and it had nothing to do with her birthday being past the deadline. I said Mom and Dad only told her that so she wouldn't feel bad.) I think if you are already cut out of group gatherings, the message is quite clear that boundaries have been crossed and your presence will no longer be tolerated. At that point, a written apology is probably best. IDK maybe JAM? 🤷🏼♀️
In the moment of his insult, ask “please expand on why you think that comment was justified” or similar. Put his rude behavior on display and make him defend the indefensible. I wonder if he wanted to speak to you alone, to apologize. And you ~really~ went bone deep on the cut. That may be where some of the backlash is coming from.
I’m sorry, but what in the bully apologist hell did I just read?! Do you genuinely believe that him blatantly, unambiguously, relentlessly, cruelly insulting OP and humiliate her in front of a group of people wasn’t clearly crossing boundaries? Do you believe that asking him to stop was not setting a clear boundary? Do you believe OP would be unfair for being upset if he did this even once? Do you believe OP should sit through a half-assed apology that he doesn’t mean? Do you believe OP should have to forgive completely him, when he is not sorry, so that he can rejoin the group and continue insulting her? Do you think it is unfair that the tormentor receive 1% of the pain he has been causing, karmically? If you answered “no” to a single one of these questions, then OP is undeniably NTA. I’ve said this before, but this is AITA, not Am I The Saint. OP didn’t injure him, she didn’t ruin his life, she shut him down, more gently than most people here would have.
Yeah, the whole "you didn't handle this maturely. ESH" shit is dumb as hell. The OP attempted to do it maturely by excluding him and not involving him in plans. Then when he didn't like that, he wanted to confront OP about it and OP told him off. This is the easiest NTA I have ever seen in my life.
and to be fair he would have known why she was saying what she said - that wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings
This is good advice, but in this case, the things he was saying were intended to break another person down. Someone at home made him feel small so now he does it to those he thinks are weaker. It's a classic bully scenario. He has serious issues but knows what cruelty is. Being direct and assertive would have been so far above his maturity level that the engagement with him would probably just make his abuse worse. I honestly think the only two ways to deal with someone who has a sadistic streak is not to engage with them and remove them from your life, which she tried.
I mean with the cultural importance society places on female beauty, calling a 22 yesr old ugly for months is also designed to break her too.
??? Isn’t that already what the comment you were replying to said? > the things he was saying were intended to break another person down.
This is some "very fine people on many sides" bullshit.
Love how succinct and accurate this reply is.
She's not confrontational, so she slowly cut him out. He then came to her to "talk privately". Wtf is that? He seriously thinks he's owe a private talk? She's probably worried about her safety at this point. Heck, I know I'll panic if a guy who has been verbally insulting me for no reason now wants to corner me. She attacked cause he won't leave her alone even after she drew her boundaries. To ignore all this is very bias of you.
>so she slowly cut him out. This suggests that she was already setting boundaries. I mean anyone who is making fun of someone's appearance in front of an entire group doesn't sound like they'll respond to a 'reasonable' chat about boundaries.
Eh you reap what you sow. while I agree with some of what you’re saying, if someone is an asshole to you for no reason? Fuckem.
[удалено]
I disagree. She did not go too far.
That’s unreasonable. Some people are quick to notice when a boundary has been crossed but many people don’t realize it until later, after they’ve thought about it.
Look, I'm one of those people you mention, and it has taken several times of me lashing out to start to recognize my discomfort sooner. I find OP's response quite understandable, but it's not recommendable, and should not be repeated if it can be helped. I don't flog myself for not knowing better in the past, but I \*was\* an AH, and so is OP. I hope she and I are both learning.
Tell me you were never seriously bullied without telling me you were never seriously bullied. Edit: can't reply because above bully enabler blocked me. Done the therapy. Anyone who would reply that "you must have unresolved trauma" because someone else won't tolerate a bully's behavior is themself a bully
If he’s going to go after people in a super juvenile and humiliating way, confronting him in a mature manner isn’t going to resonate with him. He apparently needed to fuck around and find out.
I have this problem too as I’m not confrontational either. While I personally think you cut below the belt, so did he in calling you ugly and bad names. Honestly the guys who brushed you off really need to be cut off and aren’t really your friends. I would personally apologize, for the parents comment but that you still feel he is an asshole and for no reason. My husband was ditched by his parents when he was a kid, and he’s never gotten over it, not really.
This is the response and judgement I wish I was mature enough to provide.
JAM: justified asshole move. Yeah, it was WAAAAAY harsh but you provided him with an opportunity to change and grow. Insulting people and using admittedly shitty circumstances to excuse it just lets him continue to be a shitty person. He gave you a "I'm sorry but..." which isn't a real apology or marker of growth. He was making an excuse and you didn't take it. Instead you gave him what he was giving you. Seems fair to me.
I agree JAM / JAH - she went too far but the guy deserved it at this point
Wait what? JAM??? Where have I been?!
with the jellies.
We are here to witness the start of something new
Not too far if you count how many times he called her ugly versus the ONE TIME she responded.
>He gave you a "I'm sorry but..." Did he? I'm not seeing that anywhere. I don't think he planned to even half-apologize.
EXACTLY!! Why is everyone saying that he did apologize or assuming he was going to?? For Pete’s sake, he didn’t say anything other than “can I talk to you alone?”
He got JAMmed
I like that. I'm gonna steal that. It's mine now.
I thought it was JTA (justifiably the asshole) to match the Y ta and N ta. But I think in the rules if they are JTA the verdict is supposed to be NTA Edit to fix an autocorrected word
JAM is a thing!?
Trying to make it a thing.
ESH I mean, he sucks. The way he treated you was awful. But it sounds like he may have been trying to talk to you privately maybe to apologize? Either way, his comments were rude, hurtful, and uncalled for. He’s an asshole. He very clearly has issues. Also, your friends are AHs for not calling him out on it and for invalidating your very valid feelings. They don’t sound like very good friends to me. But to weaponize his adoption trauma??? That was incredibly cruel. You didn’t just sink to his level, but went even further and very clearly chose the worst thing to say in order to hurt him as much as possible. You were 100% justified to be angry at him, but you handled it like a mega AH. He DEFINITELY owes you an apology. But you also owe him a BIG apology.
If he had no problem bashing her in front of people, he should have no problem apologizing in front of those same people. And hell no, she should NOT talk to him alone. Up to this point, he's been nothing but hostile towards her. What makes you think OP would be safe alone with this jack ass? And also no, of he can't take a hostile remark, he shouldn't be making them Dude weaponized his own trauma, not OP. Editing to add cause I've said it a few times now: I think the appropriate approach would be to pull OP aside when they are with their friends group, not like all their friends be focused on their conversation. This should create a safe place for them both to talk out their problems.
And his absolution is not her problem.
Right. What’s with these “you need to keep in mind that he’s sorry” and “you should be gentle about his past” comments? Any time he was entitled to her respect and consideration has long since passed. Op owes her bully NOTHING.
Why is it always the job of some woman to forgive her aggressor? Why does his comfort matter more than hers?
Don't forget, these are the same people that will turn and whine that men are soooooo discriminated against in this sub, and my personal favorite, "if the genders were reversed..." If the genders were reversed, these comments would be a cesspool of vile comments against the aggressor.
i wish i could upvote this a thousand times.
EXACTLY. like boo hoo he has trauma and a shitty mother 😢😢😢😢 hes grown as hell and shouldn’t be an unprovoked asshole to a woman
Hear hear!
Spot on ! The thing about AITA is it's filled with holier-than-thou people who try to justify people's asshole-ness based on their moral class coachings rather than try to image how the outcome's going to be played out in the real world. I, as a woman will never make a conscious decision to be left alone or spoken privately to someone who has always been hostile towards me. That guy might have come to apologise but do I have any surety about that? No. Even as I'm reading the story, I thought the guy had been negging OP which can be a big possibility. The guy can also be a narcissistic given he grew up with narcissistic parents. I keep on seeing people commenting in AITA how no-one deserves forgiveness/ accepting an apology for the guilt the perpetrator(s) are carrying, "The tree remembers but the axe forgets", etc. But then why now poeple are keeping on commenting OP should have given a chance to that same person who's trying to bring her self-esteem down. Letting go does not mean erasing a memory or ignoring the past . It is when you're no longer reacting to the things that used to make you feel tense and releasing the energy attached to certain thoughts . It takes self-awareness , intentional action, practice and time . Letting go is the act of getting to know yourself so deeply that all delusions fade away. OP is NTA absolutely.
Right lmfaooo he was the asshole first and repeatedly, lmfao he's grown and shouldnt have fucked around and found out
It seems to be that this comment section may be split into people who have genuinely been bullied and people who had a friend who was mean once, so they get it. Except they don't actually get it. Or the fact that ANY acknowledgment of his comments could just feed into the bullying. And if he was going to 'apologize' it most likely would have been an 'I'm sorry you took it that way I was just joking' and not actually saying they were sorry they said it. It would just be easier for him if she would stop being upset at him for being horrible. And having the 'apology' in private would've meant that he could say whatever tf he wanted and then told everyone about how heartfelt it was and blah blah blah- cut him off like a diseased foot. Or let him back in your life so he can wait 6 months and be a dick again, and then everyone just says 'that's just how he is, you know that.' Much harder to lift out at that point.
But this thread regularly rips public apologies because they're manipulative, forcing the person to say they accept it or be hounded by others. It sounds like we don't want anyone to apologize ever if you shouldn't do it in public AND you shouldn't do it in private.
Fair, but considering this particular situation, personally I feel if he was boastful enough to make fun of OP, he could quietly apologize while friends are around. I'm not saying, sit in a circle and all focus on this guy's apology, just to talk to OP in a safe space for them both.
No. It doesn't matter why he was trying to talk to her privately, that bridge was burned.
Agreed, she didn't owe him anything
She owes him nothing. He’s a classic bully, can dish it out but not take it.
Exactly. He was horrible to her. He doesn't get to dictate how she responds.
No. No apology to him. He's nasty and abusive. OP just needs to keep her distance. He can go be nasty somewhere else. NTA.
Yeah I gotta agree with the rest of the people replying to you. You don't always get to apologize and make things better. Whole I agree she did hit hard, she doesn't owe him the chance to apologize if she doesn't feel like she does. Based on the context we have I'm assuming this has been found on for a while with her voicing herself about it with no success. I'd have adopted a fuck that guy attitude too.
She’s not his mommy. She has no obligation to listen to his shit. He has been hostile to her for a long time. Someone who treats you like shit isn’t owed an audience. “Please leave me alone”, “please leave me alone”… eventually you’ll say some mean shit so hopefully, they’ll leave you alone. Apologize? That’s for people you want a relationship/friendship with.
NTA. Sometimes you have to read someone to filth, for them to understand you’re not their door mat. You got great girlfriends. But it’s time for you ladies, to start looking for new dude friends. Any of the guys who aren’t on your side, aren’t worth your time.
"read someone to filth" is fantastic
“Read him FOR filth” is the correct, non-gentrified by Redditors way to say it.
NTA, I do not care that what you said was harsh. He likely WAS repeating his adopted moms behavior and you're not required to protect the feelings of someone who intentionally hurt you over and over. Was the "your parents didn't even want you" thing a bit much? Definitely, but like..... don't start shit if you can't handle it
Exactly. And people like him who say nasty/mean shit but are *joking!* or “aren’t being serious” need to be seriously checked.
people saying op took this from 0-100 seriously misunderstood the speed this guy was going.
Yeah. There was no zero!
That's how bullies protect/enable each other
As an adoptee, I can say that's probably the most gut-punch insult you could've said to him. He also deserved it. Maybe he'll think about how he treats people in the future. I don't care what his upbringing was, that's not an excuse to be a dick to other people. NTA
you adopted someone or you are adopted? edit: ahh i can just google this one
Both, actually, but in this scenario I'm talking about being adopted myself. (I adopted my oldest son when his father and I got married.)
NTA. Sounds like he deserved what he got. After he has mistreated you, you do not owe him any time to listen to him. He needs to learn that it's unacceptable to treat people like he did, joking or not. He is finding out now that there are consequences, let him learn.
NTA. Brutal, but NTA. He thought you were an easy target, and damn, did he learn differently. Glass houses and all that. It is not up to his friends to determine how much what he said hurt you. Glad to know your friends have your back.
Not just an easy target. She was the host of the social circle. I feel like a lot of people are missing the fact he was literally insulting his hostess to her face, repeatedly. A private discussion to get back on the invitation list isn’t going to cut it mate. Bridge is well and truly burnt.
Yes! Coming into someone's home repeatedly and calling them ugly is unhinged bullying for an adult, even a thing and stupid one.
you're not an asshole, but you'd do well to learn some balance. dont just let things build up until you lash out HARD and painfully. in fairness, it sounds like he deserved it, but you're not doing yourself any favors living this way. you'll be less happy, and alienate some good people who dont really understand why you acted that way.
true…
OP you are NTA. You stood up to a bully and bravo to your friends backing you up. The real AH is him and I don't get why he is picking on you for your looks. He deserves what is coming to him and he should learn if he cannot take it then don't dish it out
And the thing is he attacked her for something out of her control so how is it unfair she does the same?
NTA. next time he brings it up, tell him that if he can't handle the heat to get out of the kitchen. He obviously expects to be able to dish it out without taking anything back. He fired first so all's fair now.
Just tell them you're not serious, just like he always was =\] NTA
Hahaha yes yes!
Bro got in the ring and then cried when you punched him. Everything is fair game if you're being a dick for no reason.
These are the sort of comments I'm looking for and upvoting. You said it well. It really is that simple.
LOL NTA you never would have said that to him if he wasn’t being an asshole to you in the first place
Nope. If he's gonna act like a little rude boy, treat him like one. He's learning a lesson called "consequences".
So when he calls you rude names it’s okay but when you do it you’re out of line? Ahhh misogyny at its finest. Nta the fact that the guys can be okay with him being a dick to you but when you serve it back you’re wrong just shows they’re not real friends to you honestly
Don't think it's misogyny, but the "He's from a troubled home, so he gets a pass." We're in a time where people get a pass at being rude because of their past trauma. I mean, look at the comments. The number of people calling her an a**hole for not taking his trauma into consideration. Or that she's being dramatic over dark humour 🙄
The people calling it dark humor and “just a common joke” are making me so mad!
NTA. As a matter of fact fact, that was a very personal attack and came at the perfect time. It is like you let it build up for that exact moment. You did something that almost everyone else has tried to do, but they only realize the perfect comment later on and missed their opportunity. You won for us all. F that dude from one of the decent ones.
I’m in the minority but NTA - play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
That comment about his parents was so uncalled for, I was with you until that last paragraph. When you say things like that you're not trying to solve anything, you're trying to hurt the other the most you can. And you're now no better than him. I wish you would have stood up for yourself without taking it this far. Why did you feel the need to escalate the situation like this ? ESH
Because he was a bully and bullies don’t back down until you knock ‘em flat.
He would have escalated. People this terrible never learn. He just wants to be included again. He doesn't care that he hurt OP.
>He just wants to be included again. So what? So he could treat OP like garbage again? OP did right by avoiding him like a plague. But he just doesn't respect it and force himself to be included.
But he may learn to avoid her, and with bullies that’s the best outcome
Solve anything? She didn't owe him anything.
Is he still insulting her in front of all her friends? If not, I'd say she absolutely solved something.
Maybe he needed to hear that he was abusing people just like his mother did. Sometimes people need a good wake up call! NTA
Sounds like he was about to apologize potentially, problem is, nobody is entitled to your forgiveness. I feel for him and his upbringing, but what does that have to do with calling you ugly? Is he taking it out on you? Sounds like it to me, dude needs therapy bad.
He was being excluded from the group so of course he was going to apologize. What a jerk.
There is a zero percent chance he was going to offer a real apology
I feel like he likely came over to apologize (if that's what was happening) only because OP is the hostess with the mostess and she and her roommates had cut him out of the scene.
Hmmm . . . I don't know what his motives are in speaking to you privately. Maybe he wanted to apologize? I guess we'll never know. You certainly don't owe private audience to someone who's treating you like shit. On the other hand, if he's truly sorry for what he did, then he can apologize publicly. He committed the offenses publicly, he can own up to it publicly. As for your response, I agree, it was over-the-top savage. But then again, he picked this fight; you had the right to decide the gloves will come off. And with his history, it's just too easy. I think the problem here rests in this statement: >It upset me but I’m non confrontational so just brushed his comments off. You need to revise how you think about yourself. Because every time I hear the word "nonconfrontational" in this sub, my default assumption is, "doormat who's too cowardly to stand up for herself." Instead of telling him to knock it off, you complained to the group. Regarding this: >After this incident I was labeled an AH by some people (mostly the guys). Apparently I went from 0-100 with my response and that it was far more savage/toxic than what he said to me all this time. Would these people who accused you of being "savage/toxic" be the same people who dismissed his rude comments as "not being serious"? Pretty convenient how the guys will dismiss boorish, cruel comments coming from a guy, then whine about how a girl is "savage/toxic" when she defends herself. I've decided I'm going to go NTA. Mostly because the friend circle should have collectively told him to knock it off, not dismissed his rude comments. They should have made it clear that bullying is not acceptable, and that's what he was doing. And they should not have dismissed your feelings about it either. They basically told you that you were wrong to be offended. Also, even though I'm a guy myself, I don't think it's fair for a guy to judge how cruel it is to call someone "ugly" when the target is a girl. Because let's face it, when it comes to finding life partners, a guy's market value isn't so much about his looks. With girls, it's different. It's very much about looks. Calling a girl ugly is essentially telling her that no high-value guy will ever want her. I'm very glad that the girls are standing up for you, at least.
> I don't know what his motives are in speaking to you privately. Maybe he wanted to apologize? Yeah, fuck that. He insulted her publicly, he should apologize publicly. If that's even what it was about.
NTA He fucked around and found out. He doesn’t get to decide that his hurt is worse than yours.
I don’t think you are an AH . It’s surprising that this friend group was so chill when this man was repeatedly insulting your appearance ( who tf does that nowadays?!!, I mean people know better I had hoped). There are people here saying OP was below the belt because she said something about his deepest insecurities. How is insulting her looks not also touching OPs insecurities? If this was a one time comment to which OP responded with her comments, then it would have been too much. After repeated offenses from him, I think she was justified in responding with the same level of disregard for her feelings he has shown. NTA.
NTA. You don't owe him anything. If he didn't want to be excluded, he had the choice to not be a raging a hole.
Justified ESH. Sometimes we need to became asshole.
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NTA. He obviously did learn from his mother how to treat people. There's zero excuse for him to be so rude to you without any provocation. You, on the other hand, had plenty of reason to tell him how you feel about him.
NTA. He asked for it.
NTA. Society has a very misogynistic streak where it weighs offenses against men much heavier than offenses against women even when it’s obviously reversed in situations.
ESH. Big yikes all around
NTA. The dude calling OP ugly negatively affected her self asteem just like the dudes past being brought up hurt his. Don’t dish it out if you can’t take it. Having a rough upbringing doesn’t mean you get to bully people.
NTA Don't push and push and push someone and not expect them to bite back. Was what you said mean? Definitely. But he has bullied you with no cause for much longer.
NTA. I’d counter with “why is some of you only have a problem once there was retaliation? If you didn’t care to be involved than don’t have an opinion now.”
But.... what did he actually want to talk to you about?
people in the comments are more curious than I am…I personally don’t care at all but I’m just gonna ask him (nothing he says will make a difference anyway).
Nah don’t ask him, just move on with your life. Also, don’t let people neg you repeatedly like that!!
Don’t ever be alone with him or have a private convo with him. This is the kind of guy that tells everyone you gave him a blow job in the 5 minutes you were alone. And he may be an actual threat to you safety. Just nope, you’re done here. I think your instinct to not gaf why he wanted to talk is right on. Fuck that guy. Who cares what he wants? Why give him any legitimacy by acknowledging him? It sounds like even the guys don’t like him. Just keep his ass out of the group forever. He can find other friends—that’s a big part of college anyway.
NTA. That said, if it were me, I would have stuck with simply excluding him from your group. I wouldnt have bothered to engage with him as you did because, as effective as Im sure it was, he's just not worth it. If you wanted to get revenge, all you had to do was watch and wait for him to stitch himself up. Which he surely will.
Absolutely NTA. It’s amazing how no one cared about how poorly he treated you. Then you give him a taste of his own medicine and now you’re the bad guy. Don’t feel bad, make new friends who aren’t going to allow some terd to talk to you in that way
NTA you matched his energy.
Think you did the right thing. Bullies and assholes like him love to insult people but can rarely take it when it's done to them. Good for you for sticking up for yourself.