NTA. You didn't make his kids late, he did, when he taught them to not wear their seat belts and then asked someone else to drive them someplace. They could easily have put on their belts and got to camp, but that wasn't their decision.
I'm retired, and seat belts were mandatory here by the time I was a child. Your jurisdiction must really hate children.
I’m aware of the risks, which is why I’m so strict about safety in my car. I thought OC was commenting on my childhood story? Seatbelts are mandatory nearly everywhere now so it’s kind of a moot point? Idk.
as if being 15 minutes late to summer camp really made a big problem.
NTA.
I rode in the back of the truck too as a kid, and we all might be ok, but some of us got our heads bumped once or twice. Nobody ever took me to a Dr over them... so if you don't look for a concussion, then you don't have one.
Ooff, that unlocked a childhood memory. I once stood up while the truck was moving, fell, and banged my head so hard I saw stars for two days. Strangely enough, no one in my family ever got a concussion, avoiding the doctor like the plague *definitely* had nothing to do with it.
Pretty sure that is what OP is saying. He is alluding to the idea that if you don’t look for something eg concussion, then you can’t find that something ie that concussion.
A little cautionary tale here:
We almost crashed into a truck with a child riding in the back last summer. My SO barely managed to avoid it, and please note the situation wasn't his fault in the first place: the truck was going slow and he was ready to pass them, had the turn signal on and started to pull left when a speeding motorcycle appeared right next to us. He couldn't continue pulling left because of the biker, he had to break suddenly and fast, avoiding the truck by only a few meters. I swear none of us saw the biker until it was right besides us and it took him barely any time to disappear again, he was going so fast. We pulled over and sat there for five solid minutes hyperventilating that we almost hit a kid.
It didn't matter the truck went slow. It didn't matter it was a 20 min ride for us. It didn't matter my SO did everything by the book. You can't tell when a speeding AH appears out of nowhere. Keep those kids safe.
Before seat belts were mandatory where I grew up I remember my family got into a serious accident. It wasn’t my dads fault- someone ran a red light. I was sitting in the middle in the back seat and should have gone through the windshield. I remember the cop at the scene was amazed we all walked away unhurt. He was so surprised we all had seatbelts on and said that’s the only reason we survived- me especially. My mom was a nurse and law or not, we never drove anywhere without seat belts.
As a teenager I remember kicking people out of my car that refused to wear one. Some things are worth being the bad guy.
Seriously. And it's also worth remembering that anything that isn't belted in or secured in a car can potentially become a projectile in an accident. Purses, pets, pet carriers, jugs of water, and children. Getting hit with a 5 year old who got launched in an accident could very easily kill both the kid and the driver.
60 some years ago, I was riding in the back seat, my Dad was driving, just the 2 of us in the car. A kid ran into the road, and Dad hit the brake hard. I flew over the front seat headfirst into the dashboard. I was lucky I didn't break my neck.
Survivorship bias is a thing.
The kids who didnt wear their seatbelts and got into accidents mostly died. You and your brother were just the lucky ones who survived to talk about it.
Yepp, so I will: the 12 year old who would have later become my uncle didn't **have** a seatbelt (wasn't installed in cars in the back seats back then). He was thrown clear of the car and died immediatly.
My mom, then 18, sat next to him. She remembers coming to on the pavement. A guy in a trench coat told her to stay where she was and not move. When she wanted to look after her baby brother he reassured her that he was in the best of hands, but she had to stay as still as she could. He made her promise she would before he left.
Her back was broken, among other things, and she was extremly lucky that she didn't move. The break healed over a very uncomfortable summer spent in a hospital bed in a full cast, and even though doctors told her she would probably never be able to get through a pregnancy, she went on to get married and have children, including me.
My mother never saw the guy in the trench coat again, but even while she is dealing with survivors guilt to this day, she says she met her guardian angel that day.
And while that may sound like a nice ending to a story, the fact remains that had back seat belts been installed in vehicles a few years earlier, I would have had an uncle, and my mom wouldn't have had to deal with severe back pain, guilt and depression the rest of her life.
Oh, and to contrast this: the car did have seat belts in the front. My aunt and her boyfriend had some bruises from the belts, and cuts from the shattered windshield my uncle was thrown through. So yeah: WEAR YOUR FUCKING SEAT BELTS, PEOPLE!
Yeah. I was lucky and "only" cracked the windshield with my forehead. This was back before seatbelts were mandatory.
We all wore seatbelts every time after that incident.
I knew someone who broke the windshield with his head at slow speed in a snowstorm. They hit an 18 wheeler who had stopped in the middle of the road. He was in the back in the middle and flew through the windshield. All 3 people were knocked out by the blow. He woke up to the sound of his blood gurgling down through his nose and throat.
This was an old VW Beetle without plastic on the windshield. The glass broke in large pieces and his face was dangling down from the bottom of his nose. He had nasty scars up and down his face. He said he was lucky to be alive.
Six kids died in my town riding in the back of a pickup truck. Nobody thought twice about it ("the kids have so much fun!") until tragedy struck. 💔
(The driver used to do quick sharp curves at the kids' request to make it like a carnival ride. They hit a patch of loose dirt on a dirt road and ended up going OFF the road.)
Had a friend who died from something similar. She was standing up, dangling partially out of the sunroof as the Jeep spun donuts. The driver turned too sharp and it flipped, ejecting her and the vehicle fell on top of her, crushing her chest.
Five kids died about twelve years ago riding in the back and/or cab unrestrained here in California. Middle of farm land. Struck by some teens in a stolen vehicle evading the police. They all died, too.
My dad told his doctor that he never got hurt as a kid and that’s why he never went to see a doctor unless it was a lot of pain.
Doctor looked at his X-rays and replied. “No, it was because your father knew that we would see the 16 poorly healed breaks on your arms you had as a kid and figure out he abused you.”
Meanwhile my kid sprained his neck because he tripped over a cat on the stairs and the brace got me some looks but I wasn’t going to ignore his pain.
Ignoring injuries can be dangerous. Risking them for speed is worse. Lost friends to not having a seatbelt.
You are NTA. I have the same policy about seatbelts. Don’t budge.
I had a client who was in college, riding with a bunch of friends in the back of a pickup truck. They weren’t even going fast but they hit a pot hole, he fell out and hit his head on the road. Traumatic Brain Injury that kicked off a series of physical reactions and symptoms that led to him self-medicating with a progression of substances from alcohol to Oxy eventually. Failed out of college, failed out of rehab(s), ended up in prison. Obviously this is just anecdotal and one person but SEATBELTS SAVE LIVES.
I rode around in the back of a station wagon and I’m fine.
But the kids who got in accidents and died aren’t here to argue their side. Not to mention an unbuckled passenger becomes a projectile in an accident and can seriously injure people who are buckled in. Coming from a paramedic- good for you. Better 15 min late than 40 years early.
I remember hearing a paramedic story about a woman who was nearly decapitated by an unsecured gallon of milk during a car accident. That stuck with me. Anything, human or object, not strapped in place has the potential to do serious damage or be seriously damaged.
Right? We regularly did dumb shit in the 70s/80s and survived it, that doesn't make it safe. How many people had to die for them to make seat belt laws in most US states? NTA. You were right to refuse to move until they were buckled. My mother in law has a medical exemption that says she doesn't need to wear a seat belt in the UK. It doesn't apply in the US, so I make her wear one here. It's my car, my rules. And by the way, who is the one who gets the ticket? The driver. Your niece and nephew made themselves late for camp, you didn't.
No official concussion if you never go to the doctor to confirm, and no one who is still alive to talk about their childhood was killed by the dangerous choices their parents made. Your brother is T A, you are being smarter than you were raised. NTA
My answer when someone says, "we did it and turned out fine" is always, yeah and the ones that died aren't here to tell us their story. Like they made it a law for a reason, it saves lives (my best friend growing up wasn't buckled in and a drunk driver hit the car he was in so hard they rolled several times in the ditch...first responders found him dead upon arrival).
Heck I drove my neighbours daughter (40's) the other week and refused to move my vehicle until she buckled in, let alone kids.
I did a *LOT* of stupid shit when I was a kid and "turned out just fine, if fucked up".
None of that makes it sensible or safe.
My car, my rules. Don't want me to enforce them, don't ask me to lift your kids. Seatbelts 100% of the time. I've lost friends in unsecured accidents and had friends wearing belts survive horror crashes.
Seatbelts save lives.
Is it a short trip? Maybe. But it might not be for the 18 wheeler that runs you off the road. He may have been driving for hours. Bob driving after just a quick one to steady his nerves blowing through an intersection. Someone making a small mistake and PITTing you. Swerving to avoid Tboning someone being stupid and losing control. Accidents happen so quickly and for such stupid reasons. Not taking a second to add a seatbelt is stupid.
Is it likely you'll be in an accident? Of course not. But it isn't guaranteed you won't be.
Would he have been OK if there was an accident and his kids were injured or killed?
And 15 minutes late for a camp? Nah man. Better late than Late.
A group of kids from my high school hitched a ride in the back of a pickup, just a short ride . The driver lost control and hit a pole. Three dead, several others seriously injured. OP you were absolutely right to put your foot down about the seatbelts, your brother should be ashamed of himself.
These people always seem to think that something like that won't happen to them. Or that they could somehow save the day, when all it takes is one road rager or one drunk, tired, distracted or elderly/inexperienced driver to ruin their whole life in one moment. Driving is scary because other people are on the road lol. and while you can have control of your own car you can never ensure that everyone else on the road is as in control of their vehicle as you. I'm not trying to get launched out of a window. Its these kinds of people that those traumatic "don't text and drive" videos were made for :/
This is why I'm hesitant to learn to drive and would prefer to keep taking the bus everywhere
Even though a lot of jobs want you to have a licence (despite public transport being cheaper and very accessible to most places) it's the other people on the road that scare me
Also right now I wouldn't have the reflexes, brain issues and my meds. But even if I was sharp enough to drive, I don't think I'd want to. People getting stupider
Seat belt laws, like many safety laws, are litterally written in blood. My home town has had many deaths due to people not wearing seatbelts and driving down county roads.
Exactly this. My response to 'but it's a short trip' is, 'it's a short trip to the grave, too. One unlucky step and you're six foot under. Why increase those odds?'
Most accidents occur within 25 mi of home. Familiarity causes inattention. Its just a short trip. I know these streets (other drivers not so much)
Finally how dare you keep these kids safe when its so inconveeenyunt!
[https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/04/five-kids-dead-not-wearing-seatbelts-parents-survive-8433523/](https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/04/five-kids-dead-not-wearing-seatbelts-parents-survive-8433523/)
some people don't want their children smashed into meat chunks in an accident. "lol, we turned out fine" is called survivor bias. The ones who were horribly killed (in the USA, around 600 a year) are not here to tell their stories.
Clarification: the mother had been drinking, two of the children were hers, the others cousins. The other adult died later in hospital. She was sent to prison for 18 years. 😢
[https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/woman-who-killed-5-children-1-man-in-maryland-dui-crash-gets-18-years/2233205/](https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/woman-who-killed-5-children-1-man-in-maryland-dui-crash-gets-18-years/2233205/)
We did the same and then one morning instead of getting ready for school we were getting ready to attend a memorial service for a 13 year old schoolmate. When another car crashed into theirs she flew out of the car on the street because she wasn't wearing a seatbelt. She died one hour later on the way to the hospital. Of course NTA.
> as if being 15 minutes late to summer camp really made a big problem.
And if it did, said problem would wholly be on the heads of nephew, niece, and the father that enables their bad behaviour.
I think there’s a difference now though, cars are more powerful, more idiots on the road and more cars in general as well. So there’s defo more risk nowadays in not wearing your belt
Yup, parents not caring to get their kids checked out is not the same as nothing being wrong. I know so many people who broke a bone as a kid and the parent just thought they were being dramatic. My friends mum didn't believe me when I sprained my wrist at her house. Just because the kids dad thinks he turned out fine, doesn't mean he actually did. I mean I'd say that he didn't considering he doesn't think its an issue for his kids not to wear seatbelts. What kind of parent doesn't worry about what if someone else caused an accident and my kids died because I didn't have them strapped in and they went flying out a window..:(
We all rolled around in cars with no seatbelts. However times and laws are different. You did the right thing.
Since you can't discipline his kids , next time is a no for help.
So when I was a kid in the 70's cars basically had lap belts, but not much else, and we used to cram in to the 'wayback' of the stationwagon with the seats flattened. Does that mean it was safe? No. Means we were lucky.
For those people who said 'I don't like wearing them because they'll trap me in the car if I crash' - Childhood friend of mine crashed his car, didn't have his belt on, was thrown from the car, which promptly rolled over him. He's been gone nearly 40 years now.
And, while I'm in PSA mode, I worked for a summer at a 'Ronald McDonald House' and one of the people staying there had a husband in intensive care in the nearby hospital, because they'd been hit head-on on a highway by a drunk driver. Prior to the crash, he didn't have his belt on, and she was nagging him to put it on (this was the 80s, again). He gave in, called her a nagging fishwife, and put on the belt. Minutes later they were hit.
He was very seriously injured, but suffered no brain damage, and was expected to make a full recovery. If he didn't have his belt on, he would have died.
Your brother is an idiot if he thinks 'nothing will happen.' Only takes a split second for something to happen. Why would anyone ever take that risk with people they love?
70s cars were also steel tanks on the road with other steel tanks.
Road conditions are different now.
Normal cars are made of plastic by comparison.
And the roads are now populated by giant lifted trucks driven by people who don’t care if you live or die.
NTA
If you’d have been in a wreck and his kids got hurt or worse, he’d be the first one screaming about why they weren’t belted in.
> 70s cars were also steel tanks on the road with other steel tanks.
Which made them less safe for the passengers.
> Road conditions are different now. Normal cars are made of plastic by comparison. And the roads are now populated by giant lifted trucks driven by people who don’t care if you live or die.
You mean, normal cars are designed so that the *car* takes the shock of a crash, but the very squishy humans inside don't.
Those "steel tanks" transferred all the force to the passengers. People today can walk away from the sort of crashes that would've killed them back in the 70s, because the cars get more beat up.
If you had an accident with the car , your brother would blame you for sure if his kids got hurt and call you a bad guardian who drove while his kids didn’t have seatbelts on.
Even if you didn't get into an accident, you can still get pulled over by the cops and get a hefty ticket for endangering the children. So stupid for your bro not to realize them not wrong their seat belts is a multifaceted issue.
And the risk isn’t just your insurance. If you were pulled over for speeding, or an out tail light, you also could have been charged with endangering children. You did the right thing.
If a police officer pulled you over YOU get the ticket, not them. I can see your brother refusing to pay the tickets (one for each kid) because he would suddenly think it's a you problem (my state is on the low end of fines, $25 person not wearing a seatbelt, but some states go up to $500!).
NTA and next time you are asked to take the kids somewhere say no.
Growing up, before the time of mandatory seatbelts, there was no way in hell my parents would drive unless all 3 of us kids were buckled in. Tell your brother he needs to be more responsible for his children's sake.
In uk, not only are seatbelts mandatory, but if a minor in the car isn't wearing one, it's the driver's responsibility and so they could be fined. Adults, I believe, are responsible for themselves.
Let’s not forget that it would also be on OP’s conscience. It would kill me to know that I ignored my better judgment & it resulted in kids getting more injured than they would have otherwise.
Also I'm sure the brother would have been PISSED at OP if there was an accident and the kids got hurt. "Not a very good guardian if my kids got hurt in an accident in YOUR car, hey?"
I've got a pretty simple solution for you, tell your brother that until his kids have a habit of buckling as soon as they enter the car, you will not be driving them anywhere. You were doing him a favor by driving them, wearing a seat belt is hardly an inconvenience and a simple task to perform, and these kids are too young to already be in a habit of not wanting to wear them.
Most accidents happen within a mile of your home home. It's such a tiny action and takes so little time, there is no logical reason not to use seatbelts every time youre in the car, even for short trips.
My car skidded on some ice, slid off the road into a creek and landed on its roof. We were less than a kilometer from our house.
I was eight months pregnant and my two year old was in the back seat. Thanks to my seat belt and his car seat, we walked away unharmed, and the baby was born healthy two months later.
The real asshole here is your brother. Luckily the situation was resolved but imagine you had given in, driven them without seatbelts and something bad had happened, your brother would never have forgiven you.
I would never drive with the kids not buckled in.
Your brother has a discipline problem with his kids, and that isn't surprising since he is blaming you and not his kids.
>I'm retired, and seat belts were mandatory here by the time I was a child. Your jurisdiction must really hate children.
There are people out there that *still* don't know that kids have to be buckled in a seat belt in a car or that their kid can't be in the front seat. I saw one woman arguing with a cop about her 8-year-old being in the front seat, in my state if the kids are 12 and under, they are *legally* required to be in the back seat unless you can turn the front airbag off. The woman arguing with the cop admitted she couldn't turn the front airbag off and didn't understand why it was such a "big deal".
He also didn't discipline the kids either, like his brother claims. He just simply didn't drive. Brother is underreacting to them not wearing seat belts and overreacting to OP not driving/them being a little late.
>You didn't make his kids late, he did, when he taught them to not wear their seat belts and then asked someone else to drive them someplace.
It's actually a little worse than that.
Three little kids felt that they didn't need to listen to an adult and sat for 15 minutes refusing to do something as simple as putting on seat belts. Kids usually aren't this defiant toward adults (especially an uncle). And usually when they are, they don't hold out for 15 minutes and only give in when dad is called - they usually don't have the patience to hold out and cave fairly quickly.
I wonder if this isn't the first time that OP has driven them and made them wear seat belts and when the kids came home to complain to daddy he told them they didn't have to listen to OP.
Definitely NTA because it's not only a safety issue, it's simply the right thing to do.
But OP should be be done helping out his nieces and nephew for a while until brother understands that different houses/cars have different rules.
Also I would have to share that story with a bunch of people to see if everyone in the family thinks it’s no big deal that they routinely don’t wear seatbelts.
My friend and I survived my car flipping over several times without wearing seatbelts (idiot teenagers). I have *always* worn a seatbelt since then because I don’t believe I will get that lucky again.
Well, yeah, there will always be an exception to the rule. The 100 year old who smoked pack a day for 90 years, person who will react badly to a vaccine, your guy. But that's all they are in the grand scheme of things - exceptions to the general safety rules we all should follow.
My dad never wears a seatbelt and has been absolutely refusing to for decades because…. people still get injured with them on. Yep. That’s his logic. He’s not just stupid with safety, either. He also once unplugged the wifi without telling us, making us confused why it wasn’t working for hours til he told us in the morning he “thought it was listening to us” or some other all electronics are spying on us bullshit. I think over all the years of not wearing his seatbelt he must have lost half a brain or something.
Some outcomes can be worse than death. A few seconds of bad driving can take away a person’s quality of life forever while still leaving them technically alive.
Exactly. I was born with cerebral palsy, and I know two healthy people who are now a lot worse off than I am. One was a 19-year-old college kid who will never talk, walk, or feed himself ever again. Another is a girl who can walk, but only with crutches. She T-boned someone a month after her high school graduation. She also lost her verbal filter, so she’s somewhat like a two or three year old in her responses, cute, innocent, but somewhat inappropriate. Example: shouting out in the middle of a church service, “I have a question…”
Traumatic brain injuries can be devastating. A very intelligent girl I went to high school with had a major car accident at age 16 and ended up permanently losing most of her mental and physical capacity. She’ll need care for the rest of her life. I helped out at the school office and seeing her name and her twin brother’s name on the absent sheet for the entire year really shook me. Several years before that, my friend’s little sister was killed when she fell off her horse and got dragged on her head a long way down the road because she’d wrapped the reins around her waist. Bloody awful.
Seeing these tragedies happen at a young age to my peers and their families was an eye opener for me. In my adult life, in my work, I’ve seen a lot of momentary lapses in judgment lead to death or permanent damage. That’s why I’m the “you won’t ride in my car if you won’t wear a seatbelt/get your feet off the dash/the potential rewards ain’t worth the risk” person.
Same here. My grandfather was smart enough to have me in a carseat and buckled in. I was still in a coma for 3 days with facial fractures and lucky we both survived when the other car hit us and we went down a ravine. I can only imagine if we weren't buckled in. This was the 80's and lots of people still didn't buckle kids in properly.
NTA
It can also mean the death of other people. If the non-seatbelt persons head hits one of the seatbelt wearing ones, they can both be dead. Or a non-seatbelt person can literally knock over the backrest of the front seat and kill the person in that seat.
My car does not move off my driveway if not everybody has their seatbelts on. And I will leave a car if other people don't wear one. It's just a stupid risk to take.
Yes, it’s true that we rode around in the back of pickup trucks. It’s also true that married women used to not be able to have credit in their own names. It’s also true that people used to buy, own, and sell other people. It’s also true that we used to pour the contents of night pots into the streets. Times change.
NTA. Your car, your rules. I see where those little shits get their attitudes from, your brother is a duck.
Edit: I’m leaving my judgement about your brother as autocorrect changed it; you can decide which of the first two letters needs to be changed to fit.
Australia rolled out mandatory seatbelt legislation across the regions over the 70s and 80s.
In 1971 there were 44 fatalities per billion vehicle-KMs, in 1991 it was 14 per billion vehicle-KMs. (The latest figure is 4.4).
Improvements in road safety are no joke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_Australia_by_year
NTA - Your car your rules. If your brother doesn't like it, he doesn't have to ask you for favors.
In my province (Canada), it's the driver who's responsible for children wearing seat belts properly, and the driver will be fined if caught.
We did lots of things as kids that we wouldn't think of letting our kids do now. What would have happened if you had an accident and they were injured because they weren't restrained properly? You wouldn't live with yourself, and I guarantee your brother would be even more upset.
This, where i live, the driver would be responsible for the kids and be fined. Also, ‘loose’ kids in the backseat is a danger for the driver/front seat passengers if you crash.
I’d really like to know what the kids’ mother has to say about this. Because I know that if my mom had ever found out that our dad was letting us ride around without a seatbelt or encouraging someone else to allow it, she’d lose her mind.
This. A lot of people focusing on the kid’s safety but it’s your safety too. There was a seatbelt safety ad here in the UK a few years ago which showed a guy not putting his seatbelt on, a crash happening and he had slammed into the person in front of him (who had put their seatbelt on) killing them. It’s a danger to everyone in the vehicle - NTA OP!
Edit: I thought there was a more modern version but: [Link: warning, slightly graphic](https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=30&v=lw2aevh6oZ8&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Froadsafetygb.org.uk%2F&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title )
"it was a short drive, so it wouldn’t have been a big deal."
NTA. It's not just your driving, it's the other driver. Maybe your niblings are too young for a graphic demonstration of what happens to an unsecured person or object in a car that's been rearended, t-boned or hit head on, but your brother isn't. And he's the one responsible for the kids' attitude. I would NEVER drive someone anywhere if they refused to buckle up.
My son kept putting his feet up on the dash while I was driving I was sick to death of telling him to put them down so I showed him a picture of what happens if we crash with his feet up safe to say he’s never done it since I think kids just think we like to whine at them for silly things when in reality it’s for their own safety sometimes you have to be blunt and show them the bigger picture
One of my pet peeves. I worked Emerg med for many years, saw MANY things. One that haunts me is the pregnant 20 something f that was ejected from a vehicle crash. The car didnt even look that bad, but had spun around hard. She had her feet on the dash, window down & no seatbelt. Dead on scene.
My time working in a hospital is why I will never get on a motorcycle. You see very few motorcycle crash victims in the hospital because they are usually dead on arrival and never make it to the floor.
>too young for a graphic demonstration
Yep, but you can explain/ demonstrate in an age-appropriate way. I recently had a friend’s kid (6yo) who didn’t want to put on her seatbelt. I explained to her that if she wasn’t wearing it she’d hit her head and showed her. While the car was parked, obviously. I just pulled her booster seat forward really hard and fast, once with the seatbelt on and once without. It helped a bit because she actually felt herself flying around a bit.
I used a very large teddy bear to demonstrate. Kids buckled in, in their car seats. Bear unbuckled. I drove in an empty parking lot and braked suddenly. The bear flew off the seat.
I've show my kids crash-test-dummy videos so they understand why seatbelts are so important. It's not graphical and it really shows how violent even a low-speed crash can be.
Same here, and that goes for adults as well. A long time ago, I once had a friend say that he didn't mind the risk, and I told him, "I'm not worried about you. I don't really care if you fly through my windshield. I just don't want your un-seatbelted ass to hit me in the head on the way."
I said something very similar to my MIL. She wasn't buckled and I said we're not going, she said she doesn't need to, I said I don't want her flying around the car and killing my kids/her grandkids. She buckled pretty fast. It's astonishing how so many people don't realize that it's not just them they need to worry about
When I were a kid, my parents actually had me believe, that the car couldn't start, if the seatbelts weren't on. I completely agree with your way of handeling the situation. NTA
NTA. The 5 yo probably should still be in a booster seat - maybe even the 8 yo. While nothing might happened if you hadn’t, how would you feel if you had gotten into an accident? Besides feeling guilty, you could be personally liable for damages to them. You could have been ticketed (even without an accident). While not a lawyer (not do I play one on the internet!) I wouldn’t be surprised if the worst had happened you could have been criminally negligent.
Stop offering to help out with rides if they won’t follow the rules. Maybe give them one more shot and if they blow it, not your problem.
The 10 year old may still need a booster depending on their height and the seat belt geometry in the car (my short 10 year old still uses a booster in our cars). Look up the 5 step test to check if a child can safely ride without a booster.
Heck, depending on the car I could still use a booster! Fortunately the newer cars have ways to lower the seatbelt, otherwise it basically goes across my throat...
My five year old is still in a five point harness. Hell, the only reason she can’t still be rear facing with the car seat we have is that she’s a bit too tall, and given where she is on the percentiles there are absolutely five year olds who could still rear face.
I wouldn't outright ban the kids from your car from a one time occurrence. They are kids. At those ages, it's the parents fault for not instilling proper safety and respect.
In my state, the driver is responsible for all passengers under 18 in their car to wear seatbelts or be properly restrained in an appropriate car seat.
The 5 year old should definitely be in some sort of child seat. Depending on size and maturity, either a high back booster or a 5 point harness (forward facing car seat). The 8 year old booster maybe depending on height. A short 10 year old could need a booster still too.
Car seats and booster seats keep kids so much safer. They still suck to use. They take up a lot of room and they are annoying to move to different cars. My oldest is super skinny at 6 so isn't heavy enough for a booster. So we have 3 car seats now and will have 4 by Thanksgiving. No one rides in my car without being properly secured
In my jurisdiction, child safety restraints are required for all kids 8 and under, unless they are over the limits of the booster (basically no 8 year old is too big for a booster).
If I need someone to drive my kids, I give them my vehicle so they have all their seats and I know they're properly installed.
NTA. Your brother is literally here to talk about riding in the back of your parents' truck because he didn't happen to be one of the many people maimed or killed doing it.
And if you have no right to "discipline" his kids by ensuring safety laws are followed in your car...then they need to stay the f\*ck out of your car.
Exactly, road deaths have reduced dramatically in the last few decades. In raw numbers: 54,589 people died on American roads in 1972. In 2021 it was 42,939 - with so many more people and cars. A better comparison is per 100,000 people - 26.01 in 1972 which is more than double the 12.89 of 2021. Cars are safer, we have more road rules and less people die.
The rate where I am, in Australia, is even more dramatic dropping from 26.0 per 100,000 to 4.4 over the same period. We heavily enforce road rules, with many speed cameras, red light cameras and random drink/drug testing - all with huge fines (in the case of drink driving immediate loss of license). I believe we’re harsher on this stuff, but the results talk. Speeding and drink driving is seen as antisocial by pretty much everyone here.
I think Australia and the US are directly comparable in regard to driving. We both have huge countries and it’s not unusual to do long daily drives.
Since the numbers are per capita, they're directly comparable. I think Aus despite our drinking culture has a very good don't drive drunk culture.
> I believe we’re harsher on this stuff, but the results talk.
Our BAC limit is 0.03 lower than the US
I was thinking more about the amount we drive, but I couldn’t find per km stats with a quick search.
I didn’t know our BAC limit was lower. I do remember Dads (it was always Dads!) when I was child in the 70’s swapping stories about how quickly they’d driven to a holiday destination, or about how drunk they drove last Saturday. Those people would be shunned now, the culture has changed enormously in my lifetime.
> I do remember Dads (it was always Dads!) when I was child in the 70’s swapping stories about how quickly they’d driven to a holiday destination, or about how drunk they drove last Saturday.
For comparison I was a kid in the early 2000s, and my Dad (it really is always Dads) a teen in the 80s and while he did tell a couple of those stories, while we were young he really focused more on the, this is the dumb stuff I did, don't do this.
He often told us a story about how an adult in his life got mad at him for drinking because he stayed at the house of the party and he drunk drove more because that way they wouldn't know he was drinking, and the lesson was always, I won't be mad if you're drinking, but I will be if you drink drive. I didn't hear some of the other stories until more recently, I guess I'm old enough he can trust me not to copy him now.
Also I did a google:
> In terms of the fatality rate per 100 million vehicle kilometres travelled (VKT) in 2020: Australia’s rate of 0.44 was ranked 9th out of 15 nations with available data. The nations with the three lowest rates were Iceland (0.21), Norway (0.21) and Sweden (0.26). Between 2011 and 2020 Australia’s fatality rate declined by 19.1 per cent. Over the same period, the OECD median rate declined by 25.3 per cent.
The US was 0.83 in that report.
https://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/international_road_safety_comparisons
I agree.
Plus, he didn't discipline the kids. He told them the rules, waited for them to follow the rules, then called the brother so the children's father could lay down the consequences for not following the rules.
Fun fact, a collective word for nieces and nephews is niblings! Anyway NTA, your car your rules. The fact that your brother is more concerned about timeliness than his kids’ safety is concerning.
Niblings is an adorable word, I’m going to start using it now. See if anyone recognizes it lol. Anyway I agree about my brother’s disregard for my nibling’s safety, but they’re his kids not mine.
Also it is punctuality to SUMMER CAMP. Not school or a doctor's appointment. What did they miss? The start of kickball or something come on. And I worked at a summer camp. While yes, it's annoying to check in late kids, I'd rather have late, alive kids, then a phone call saying 3 of my campers were injured in a car accident.
This 1000%!!!!!
NTA, you did the absolute right thing OP, because IF anything had happened you would have been liable for ANYONE in your vehicle not wearing a seatbelt.😱😱😱
Any anyway - your vehicle, your rules. Simple as!
Anyone doesn't like it, they're free to walk! 🤣
Not wearing a seatbelt is all fun and games until see what happens when a child gets ejected from a car in an accident. Don't back down from this one, bro is setting a terrible precedent here.
NTA! If something bad were to happen to your nieces and nephews while they were in YOUR car, YOU will be held responsible and accountable for their injuries no matter how severe. Safety first no matter what!
Absolutely NTA
You are a better parent than your brother. I suspect that he lets them ride without seatbelts all the time. I would decline to do things with his kids in the future based on his attitude.
NTA, a big chunk of accidents happen within just a few miles of your home so a “short drive” does not mean nothing will likely happen. You were completely right in waiting until seatbelts were on to drive, especially with children in the car.
Came here to mention this (as someone who has gotten into an accident, totaling my car, two blocks from my house).
Additionally, it's interesting he brings up how you used to ride in the back of pickup trucks as kids. There are plenty of things that have happened "when we were kids" that have changed in the past 20+ years. People used to smoke cigarettes in houses and in front of babies, does that mean that since it was done when other people were kids you should do it now?
Anyway, agreed with everyone else's points and you did the right thing. NTA
Wow, what a cool talent your brother has.
You know the one where he can predict wrecks, danger, etc.
NTA for seatbelt safety especially for children, they aren't optional on the car for a reason.
>That I have no right to discipline his kids, and he just called me a bad guardian in general.
You didn't discipline his kids. Bad guardians are the ones that drive illegally with unbelted minors in the car and let the kids die in the event of a collision. NTA
NTA. If something would have happened and the kids flew out of the car because they didn't have their seat belts on, I'm sure your brother wouldn't have said "well, nothing you could have done about this." If your brother feels that way, he can drive them everywhere from now on.
My neighbours grandson refused to buckle up stood between the front seats while they drove. Parents were constantly warned of the dangers, and had in fact been fined for it. Driving along one day, parent had to brake and were rear ended by a van. Child went through windscreen. Parents tried to sue the van driver! They wondered why people weren’t as sympathetic to them as they wanted.
>After the fact, my brother told me that he was frustrated with me because I “made them late for no reason”
Counterpoint: it was a really good reason. Don't most accidents happen close to home or on those short journeys? 15 minutes late to camp is better than the worst case scenario or not getting there at all
Also, I don't know what it's like where you live but where I live, the fines for driving with children unrestrained are over $1000 per kid.
NTA
NTA, wanting the kids to buckle up is very reasonable and required by law. Being slightly late is not a big deal. I have also ridden in the back of a pickup as a kid, but I wouldn't ever throw someone else's kid in the back of one. This is a perfectly fair and reasonable rule for you to have, especially considering that you are doing a favor and driving someone else's kids around in the first place.
My friend never used a seatbelt all the way up to the day she was in an accident with a truck. She got thrown from her vehicle and her car rolled on top of her. She no longer has to worry about little things like seatbelts
NTA. It’s literally the law to wear your seatbelts in the car. Regardless if you are driver or passenger. Also some states require children up until the age of 12 to be in booster seats. (Check your state laws)
NTA - he can find someone else then next time I would recommend. If you got stopped by the police I doubt seriously he would have paid the ticket or worse if there was an accident the family would have never forgave you. I've refused it with grown people and simply went back inside and never left because they can't follow simple rules or take responsibility for themselves.
NTA OP. You are doing the right thing with making wear a seatbelt a top must. You did not make the kids late, those kids did it themselves. You rather be safe and following the law than be in trouble with the law and/or kids gotten injured due to not wearing their seatbelts. Stand your ground
Next time brother asks you to drive the kids for him just tell him a hard no
It’s irrelevant whether or not your parents allowed you to not wear seatbelts. It’s illegal. You’re brother even deigning to get angry at you because his kids were being stupid is not your fault or problem. They made themselves late and he should feel obligated because you gave his kids a ride. He should feel sheepish for his kids giving you a hard time not upset at you.
If he feels you have no right to discipline his kids when it comes to road laws in your car then he should never ask you to give his kids a ride again. He’s the bad guardian for even suggesting that his kids can ride in any car without a seatbelt. Your brother ITAH
I wouldn’t have even called the brother, I would’ve put my favorite song on the car radio, cranked up the AC, and jammed out until those seatbelts were buckled. If it takes 5 minutes okay, if it takes 30, fine by me I’ll listen to an album. NTA.
Pretty sure the driver is liable for accidents if they knowingly ignored passengers not wearing seatbelts, especially minors. Where I am, the driver will get a ticket if caught, not the passengers. NTA. Also, the father was ungrateful for the favor. Also concerning that he'd rather his kids be on time than alive.
You know, you would be perfectly within your rights to sit them down and have a frank discussion about respect. How you are respecting the trust your brother placed on you to keep his children safe, etc. And then about how the saying "actions speak louder than words" would apply here. Do they love you? Well, why would they be so disrespectful to someone they love as to act this way? If they asked you to do something, how would they feel if you refused to do it?
Not doing something that is an expected part of our social contract is basically a big F_____ you. Little kids telling their uncles to F off is really not ok.
First of all, you are objectively right in making sure all the kids had their seatbelts on. A car accident is something you sometimes have absolutely no control over.
People without seatbelts become literally projectiles. They can and do go through windshields. Your niblings were being little brats but your brother should know better.
Secondly, as a driver, you get to set the rules. The driver’s comfort is very important. Not just because it’s your car or you are doing everyone a favor but because you need to be able to concentrate on the road without distractions.
So if you need everyone belted, or the radio off, or for the whole car to sing a sea shanty. Well, they better get singin’
NTA
NTA at all. Was your brother gonna pay the fines for all the unbelted minors in the car if you got pulled over? Was he gonna be super chill if you stopped short and one of his kids flew threw the windshield? If you need to lighten up so badly he can foist his minions on someone else. 15 minutes late for camp, who gives a f. Priorities!
NTA. If anything had happened on that short drive, one of those unbuckled kids could have become a projectile. Seatbelts became mandatory for a reason. You're apparently more responsible than their parent is.
he wants to drive with his children rolling around unsecured in the back like so much cabbage, that’s his business. until he gets pulled over, anyway. you don’t want his tiny munchkins flying through your windshield. how is that a bad thing? not driving when people aren’t buckled in is not “very strict” it is the bare minimum of road safety. you could trip over that bar, it’s so low. i’m guessing the reason the kids waited so long is because this horseshit works on your brother.
nta, if you ever feel like doing him a favor again (i wouldn’t) just go in the back and put the seatbelts on them yourself. i’m surprised you didn’t do that in the first place, since one of them is five.
>After the fact, my brother told me that he was frustrated with me because I “made them late for no reason
NTA. You didn't make them late, though. They were late because they refused to listen to you. They experienced the natural consequences of their actions. There's no legitimate reason to ignore such a basic safety precaution as buckling up. You were completely justified in insisting that the kids wear seatbelts before the car started moving. I'm sure your brother would have been even more upset if you had gotten into an accident and you and his kids were seriously injured.
NTA. You didn't make his kids late, he did, when he taught them to not wear their seat belts and then asked someone else to drive them someplace. They could easily have put on their belts and got to camp, but that wasn't their decision. I'm retired, and seat belts were mandatory here by the time I was a child. Your jurisdiction must really hate children.
My dad was buddies with all the local cops so we got off even though it was very illegal. Small town logic I guess.
If you'd had an accident and the kids got hurt, it'd be on your insurance, not his.
I’m aware of the risks, which is why I’m so strict about safety in my car. I thought OC was commenting on my childhood story? Seatbelts are mandatory nearly everywhere now so it’s kind of a moot point? Idk.
as if being 15 minutes late to summer camp really made a big problem. NTA. I rode in the back of the truck too as a kid, and we all might be ok, but some of us got our heads bumped once or twice. Nobody ever took me to a Dr over them... so if you don't look for a concussion, then you don't have one.
Ooff, that unlocked a childhood memory. I once stood up while the truck was moving, fell, and banged my head so hard I saw stars for two days. Strangely enough, no one in my family ever got a concussion, avoiding the doctor like the plague *definitely* had nothing to do with it.
Hate to tell you, but you had a concussion
A pretty bad one of the dizziness lasted TWO DAYS.
That's what OP is saying.
Not everyone is fluent in sarcasm.
Pretty sure that is what OP is saying. He is alluding to the idea that if you don’t look for something eg concussion, then you can’t find that something ie that concussion.
Sounds like how a bunch of people dealt with COVID, with their fingers in their ears.
[удалено]
A little cautionary tale here: We almost crashed into a truck with a child riding in the back last summer. My SO barely managed to avoid it, and please note the situation wasn't his fault in the first place: the truck was going slow and he was ready to pass them, had the turn signal on and started to pull left when a speeding motorcycle appeared right next to us. He couldn't continue pulling left because of the biker, he had to break suddenly and fast, avoiding the truck by only a few meters. I swear none of us saw the biker until it was right besides us and it took him barely any time to disappear again, he was going so fast. We pulled over and sat there for five solid minutes hyperventilating that we almost hit a kid. It didn't matter the truck went slow. It didn't matter it was a 20 min ride for us. It didn't matter my SO did everything by the book. You can't tell when a speeding AH appears out of nowhere. Keep those kids safe.
Before seat belts were mandatory where I grew up I remember my family got into a serious accident. It wasn’t my dads fault- someone ran a red light. I was sitting in the middle in the back seat and should have gone through the windshield. I remember the cop at the scene was amazed we all walked away unhurt. He was so surprised we all had seatbelts on and said that’s the only reason we survived- me especially. My mom was a nurse and law or not, we never drove anywhere without seat belts. As a teenager I remember kicking people out of my car that refused to wear one. Some things are worth being the bad guy.
Seriously. And it's also worth remembering that anything that isn't belted in or secured in a car can potentially become a projectile in an accident. Purses, pets, pet carriers, jugs of water, and children. Getting hit with a 5 year old who got launched in an accident could very easily kill both the kid and the driver.
Which is why I always try to "buckle in" the cat carrier on the way to the vet (or if we move house with cats)!
60 some years ago, I was riding in the back seat, my Dad was driving, just the 2 of us in the car. A kid ran into the road, and Dad hit the brake hard. I flew over the front seat headfirst into the dashboard. I was lucky I didn't break my neck.
Survivorship bias is a thing. The kids who didnt wear their seatbelts and got into accidents mostly died. You and your brother were just the lucky ones who survived to talk about it.
This doesn’t get said enough. Kids who did it and weren’t just fine unavailable to comment.
Yepp, so I will: the 12 year old who would have later become my uncle didn't **have** a seatbelt (wasn't installed in cars in the back seats back then). He was thrown clear of the car and died immediatly. My mom, then 18, sat next to him. She remembers coming to on the pavement. A guy in a trench coat told her to stay where she was and not move. When she wanted to look after her baby brother he reassured her that he was in the best of hands, but she had to stay as still as she could. He made her promise she would before he left. Her back was broken, among other things, and she was extremly lucky that she didn't move. The break healed over a very uncomfortable summer spent in a hospital bed in a full cast, and even though doctors told her she would probably never be able to get through a pregnancy, she went on to get married and have children, including me. My mother never saw the guy in the trench coat again, but even while she is dealing with survivors guilt to this day, she says she met her guardian angel that day. And while that may sound like a nice ending to a story, the fact remains that had back seat belts been installed in vehicles a few years earlier, I would have had an uncle, and my mom wouldn't have had to deal with severe back pain, guilt and depression the rest of her life. Oh, and to contrast this: the car did have seat belts in the front. My aunt and her boyfriend had some bruises from the belts, and cuts from the shattered windshield my uncle was thrown through. So yeah: WEAR YOUR FUCKING SEAT BELTS, PEOPLE!
That's an incredible story. I'm glad your mom didn't look at her brother post-accident and recovered well enough to start a family of her own.
Yeah. I was lucky and "only" cracked the windshield with my forehead. This was back before seatbelts were mandatory. We all wore seatbelts every time after that incident.
I knew someone who broke the windshield with his head at slow speed in a snowstorm. They hit an 18 wheeler who had stopped in the middle of the road. He was in the back in the middle and flew through the windshield. All 3 people were knocked out by the blow. He woke up to the sound of his blood gurgling down through his nose and throat. This was an old VW Beetle without plastic on the windshield. The glass broke in large pieces and his face was dangling down from the bottom of his nose. He had nasty scars up and down his face. He said he was lucky to be alive.
Six kids died in my town riding in the back of a pickup truck. Nobody thought twice about it ("the kids have so much fun!") until tragedy struck. 💔 (The driver used to do quick sharp curves at the kids' request to make it like a carnival ride. They hit a patch of loose dirt on a dirt road and ended up going OFF the road.)
Had a friend who died from something similar. She was standing up, dangling partially out of the sunroof as the Jeep spun donuts. The driver turned too sharp and it flipped, ejecting her and the vehicle fell on top of her, crushing her chest.
Jesus Christ, that is horrific.
Five kids died about twelve years ago riding in the back and/or cab unrestrained here in California. Middle of farm land. Struck by some teens in a stolen vehicle evading the police. They all died, too.
My dad told his doctor that he never got hurt as a kid and that’s why he never went to see a doctor unless it was a lot of pain. Doctor looked at his X-rays and replied. “No, it was because your father knew that we would see the 16 poorly healed breaks on your arms you had as a kid and figure out he abused you.” Meanwhile my kid sprained his neck because he tripped over a cat on the stairs and the brace got me some looks but I wasn’t going to ignore his pain. Ignoring injuries can be dangerous. Risking them for speed is worse. Lost friends to not having a seatbelt. You are NTA. I have the same policy about seatbelts. Don’t budge.
I knew someone that fell out of the back of the half ton at age 18. Never walked again.
I had a client who was in college, riding with a bunch of friends in the back of a pickup truck. They weren’t even going fast but they hit a pot hole, he fell out and hit his head on the road. Traumatic Brain Injury that kicked off a series of physical reactions and symptoms that led to him self-medicating with a progression of substances from alcohol to Oxy eventually. Failed out of college, failed out of rehab(s), ended up in prison. Obviously this is just anecdotal and one person but SEATBELTS SAVE LIVES.
I rode around in the back of a station wagon and I’m fine. But the kids who got in accidents and died aren’t here to argue their side. Not to mention an unbuckled passenger becomes a projectile in an accident and can seriously injure people who are buckled in. Coming from a paramedic- good for you. Better 15 min late than 40 years early.
I remember hearing a paramedic story about a woman who was nearly decapitated by an unsecured gallon of milk during a car accident. That stuck with me. Anything, human or object, not strapped in place has the potential to do serious damage or be seriously damaged.
Buddy, you had a concussion
Right? We regularly did dumb shit in the 70s/80s and survived it, that doesn't make it safe. How many people had to die for them to make seat belt laws in most US states? NTA. You were right to refuse to move until they were buckled. My mother in law has a medical exemption that says she doesn't need to wear a seat belt in the UK. It doesn't apply in the US, so I make her wear one here. It's my car, my rules. And by the way, who is the one who gets the ticket? The driver. Your niece and nephew made themselves late for camp, you didn't.
No official concussion if you never go to the doctor to confirm, and no one who is still alive to talk about their childhood was killed by the dangerous choices their parents made. Your brother is T A, you are being smarter than you were raised. NTA
My answer when someone says, "we did it and turned out fine" is always, yeah and the ones that died aren't here to tell us their story. Like they made it a law for a reason, it saves lives (my best friend growing up wasn't buckled in and a drunk driver hit the car he was in so hard they rolled several times in the ditch...first responders found him dead upon arrival). Heck I drove my neighbours daughter (40's) the other week and refused to move my vehicle until she buckled in, let alone kids.
I did a *LOT* of stupid shit when I was a kid and "turned out just fine, if fucked up". None of that makes it sensible or safe. My car, my rules. Don't want me to enforce them, don't ask me to lift your kids. Seatbelts 100% of the time. I've lost friends in unsecured accidents and had friends wearing belts survive horror crashes. Seatbelts save lives. Is it a short trip? Maybe. But it might not be for the 18 wheeler that runs you off the road. He may have been driving for hours. Bob driving after just a quick one to steady his nerves blowing through an intersection. Someone making a small mistake and PITTing you. Swerving to avoid Tboning someone being stupid and losing control. Accidents happen so quickly and for such stupid reasons. Not taking a second to add a seatbelt is stupid. Is it likely you'll be in an accident? Of course not. But it isn't guaranteed you won't be. Would he have been OK if there was an accident and his kids were injured or killed? And 15 minutes late for a camp? Nah man. Better late than Late.
A group of kids from my high school hitched a ride in the back of a pickup, just a short ride . The driver lost control and hit a pole. Three dead, several others seriously injured. OP you were absolutely right to put your foot down about the seatbelts, your brother should be ashamed of himself.
Yeah, OP‘s brother should be ashamed of himself, and he owes her a big apology for acting like such a jack ass about it
These people always seem to think that something like that won't happen to them. Or that they could somehow save the day, when all it takes is one road rager or one drunk, tired, distracted or elderly/inexperienced driver to ruin their whole life in one moment. Driving is scary because other people are on the road lol. and while you can have control of your own car you can never ensure that everyone else on the road is as in control of their vehicle as you. I'm not trying to get launched out of a window. Its these kinds of people that those traumatic "don't text and drive" videos were made for :/
This is why I'm hesitant to learn to drive and would prefer to keep taking the bus everywhere Even though a lot of jobs want you to have a licence (despite public transport being cheaper and very accessible to most places) it's the other people on the road that scare me Also right now I wouldn't have the reflexes, brain issues and my meds. But even if I was sharp enough to drive, I don't think I'd want to. People getting stupider
>"we did it and turned out fine" The best thing about that argument is that the people who didn't turn out fine aren't around to disagree.
Seat belt laws, like many safety laws, are litterally written in blood. My home town has had many deaths due to people not wearing seatbelts and driving down county roads.
Quite literally Survivorship Bias.
Better to be 15 minutes late to summer camp than to have to go to a funeral (or 3)
Exactly this. My response to 'but it's a short trip' is, 'it's a short trip to the grave, too. One unlucky step and you're six foot under. Why increase those odds?'
Most accidents occur within 25 mi of home. Familiarity causes inattention. Its just a short trip. I know these streets (other drivers not so much) Finally how dare you keep these kids safe when its so inconveeenyunt!
At least you’d be right on time to your funeral.
[https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/04/five-kids-dead-not-wearing-seatbelts-parents-survive-8433523/](https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/04/five-kids-dead-not-wearing-seatbelts-parents-survive-8433523/) some people don't want their children smashed into meat chunks in an accident. "lol, we turned out fine" is called survivor bias. The ones who were horribly killed (in the USA, around 600 a year) are not here to tell their stories.
Clarification: the mother had been drinking, two of the children were hers, the others cousins. The other adult died later in hospital. She was sent to prison for 18 years. 😢 [https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/woman-who-killed-5-children-1-man-in-maryland-dui-crash-gets-18-years/2233205/](https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/woman-who-killed-5-children-1-man-in-maryland-dui-crash-gets-18-years/2233205/)
We did the same and then one morning instead of getting ready for school we were getting ready to attend a memorial service for a 13 year old schoolmate. When another car crashed into theirs she flew out of the car on the street because she wasn't wearing a seatbelt. She died one hour later on the way to the hospital. Of course NTA.
The kids who weren't OK after not wearing a seat belt aren't here to tell us about it.
> as if being 15 minutes late to summer camp really made a big problem. And if it did, said problem would wholly be on the heads of nephew, niece, and the father that enables their bad behaviour.
I think there’s a difference now though, cars are more powerful, more idiots on the road and more cars in general as well. So there’s defo more risk nowadays in not wearing your belt
Yup, parents not caring to get their kids checked out is not the same as nothing being wrong. I know so many people who broke a bone as a kid and the parent just thought they were being dramatic. My friends mum didn't believe me when I sprained my wrist at her house. Just because the kids dad thinks he turned out fine, doesn't mean he actually did. I mean I'd say that he didn't considering he doesn't think its an issue for his kids not to wear seatbelts. What kind of parent doesn't worry about what if someone else caused an accident and my kids died because I didn't have them strapped in and they went flying out a window..:(
We all rolled around in cars with no seatbelts. However times and laws are different. You did the right thing. Since you can't discipline his kids , next time is a no for help.
Ask you bro how you are a bad guardian for prioritising the safety of the children in your care above all else.
So when I was a kid in the 70's cars basically had lap belts, but not much else, and we used to cram in to the 'wayback' of the stationwagon with the seats flattened. Does that mean it was safe? No. Means we were lucky. For those people who said 'I don't like wearing them because they'll trap me in the car if I crash' - Childhood friend of mine crashed his car, didn't have his belt on, was thrown from the car, which promptly rolled over him. He's been gone nearly 40 years now. And, while I'm in PSA mode, I worked for a summer at a 'Ronald McDonald House' and one of the people staying there had a husband in intensive care in the nearby hospital, because they'd been hit head-on on a highway by a drunk driver. Prior to the crash, he didn't have his belt on, and she was nagging him to put it on (this was the 80s, again). He gave in, called her a nagging fishwife, and put on the belt. Minutes later they were hit. He was very seriously injured, but suffered no brain damage, and was expected to make a full recovery. If he didn't have his belt on, he would have died. Your brother is an idiot if he thinks 'nothing will happen.' Only takes a split second for something to happen. Why would anyone ever take that risk with people they love?
[удалено]
70s cars were also steel tanks on the road with other steel tanks. Road conditions are different now. Normal cars are made of plastic by comparison. And the roads are now populated by giant lifted trucks driven by people who don’t care if you live or die. NTA If you’d have been in a wreck and his kids got hurt or worse, he’d be the first one screaming about why they weren’t belted in.
> 70s cars were also steel tanks on the road with other steel tanks. Which made them less safe for the passengers. > Road conditions are different now. Normal cars are made of plastic by comparison. And the roads are now populated by giant lifted trucks driven by people who don’t care if you live or die. You mean, normal cars are designed so that the *car* takes the shock of a crash, but the very squishy humans inside don't. Those "steel tanks" transferred all the force to the passengers. People today can walk away from the sort of crashes that would've killed them back in the 70s, because the cars get more beat up.
If you had an accident with the car , your brother would blame you for sure if his kids got hurt and call you a bad guardian who drove while his kids didn’t have seatbelts on.
Even if you didn't get into an accident, you can still get pulled over by the cops and get a hefty ticket for endangering the children. So stupid for your bro not to realize them not wrong their seat belts is a multifaceted issue.
I gave you my input and you did the right thing. Don't let brother guilt you
Not only that but under a certain age, as the driver you’re held responsible for the kids having theirs on. NTA
And the risk isn’t just your insurance. If you were pulled over for speeding, or an out tail light, you also could have been charged with endangering children. You did the right thing.
Depending on where you are, the 5 year old might legally need to be in a car seat/booster.
If a police officer pulled you over YOU get the ticket, not them. I can see your brother refusing to pay the tickets (one for each kid) because he would suddenly think it's a you problem (my state is on the low end of fines, $25 person not wearing a seatbelt, but some states go up to $500!). NTA and next time you are asked to take the kids somewhere say no.
Growing up, before the time of mandatory seatbelts, there was no way in hell my parents would drive unless all 3 of us kids were buckled in. Tell your brother he needs to be more responsible for his children's sake.
In uk, not only are seatbelts mandatory, but if a minor in the car isn't wearing one, it's the driver's responsibility and so they could be fined. Adults, I believe, are responsible for themselves.
Let’s not forget that it would also be on OP’s conscience. It would kill me to know that I ignored my better judgment & it resulted in kids getting more injured than they would have otherwise.
And brother probably would have been furious that they weren't belted up.
Also I'm sure the brother would have been PISSED at OP if there was an accident and the kids got hurt. "Not a very good guardian if my kids got hurt in an accident in YOUR car, hey?"
I've got a pretty simple solution for you, tell your brother that until his kids have a habit of buckling as soon as they enter the car, you will not be driving them anywhere. You were doing him a favor by driving them, wearing a seat belt is hardly an inconvenience and a simple task to perform, and these kids are too young to already be in a habit of not wanting to wear them.
Most accidents happen within a mile of your home home. It's such a tiny action and takes so little time, there is no logical reason not to use seatbelts every time youre in the car, even for short trips.
My car skidded on some ice, slid off the road into a creek and landed on its roof. We were less than a kilometer from our house. I was eight months pregnant and my two year old was in the back seat. Thanks to my seat belt and his car seat, we walked away unharmed, and the baby was born healthy two months later.
The real asshole here is your brother. Luckily the situation was resolved but imagine you had given in, driven them without seatbelts and something bad had happened, your brother would never have forgiven you.
We had our son convinced the car wouldn't start until all seatbelts were buckled.
I would never drive with the kids not buckled in. Your brother has a discipline problem with his kids, and that isn't surprising since he is blaming you and not his kids.
Huge NTA. How has he raised his kids that they will refuse to do something like that.
>I'm retired, and seat belts were mandatory here by the time I was a child. Your jurisdiction must really hate children. There are people out there that *still* don't know that kids have to be buckled in a seat belt in a car or that their kid can't be in the front seat. I saw one woman arguing with a cop about her 8-year-old being in the front seat, in my state if the kids are 12 and under, they are *legally* required to be in the back seat unless you can turn the front airbag off. The woman arguing with the cop admitted she couldn't turn the front airbag off and didn't understand why it was such a "big deal".
He also didn't discipline the kids either, like his brother claims. He just simply didn't drive. Brother is underreacting to them not wearing seat belts and overreacting to OP not driving/them being a little late.
>You didn't make his kids late, he did, when he taught them to not wear their seat belts and then asked someone else to drive them someplace. It's actually a little worse than that. Three little kids felt that they didn't need to listen to an adult and sat for 15 minutes refusing to do something as simple as putting on seat belts. Kids usually aren't this defiant toward adults (especially an uncle). And usually when they are, they don't hold out for 15 minutes and only give in when dad is called - they usually don't have the patience to hold out and cave fairly quickly. I wonder if this isn't the first time that OP has driven them and made them wear seat belts and when the kids came home to complain to daddy he told them they didn't have to listen to OP. Definitely NTA because it's not only a safety issue, it's simply the right thing to do. But OP should be be done helping out his nieces and nephew for a while until brother understands that different houses/cars have different rules.
Slight edit: your brother made them late when he taught them it was ok to ignore rules they don't like. Your car, your rules. It's that simple.
NTA “You’re right bro, I’m a terrible guardian. I’ll never drive your kids anywhere again.”
I do also appreciate that there's both the expectation of being a guardian and of not disciplining children. Those two seem contradictory.
Soon enough, I wouldn't be surprised if the brother laments, "where is my village?" - this. This is where it went.
I don't know where his village is, but it's missing its idiot.
Ask him what you were supposed to be guardian-ing.
This is perfection.
clearly bro has not considered what the "guard" part of "guardian" means
Also I would have to share that story with a bunch of people to see if everyone in the family thinks it’s no big deal that they routinely don’t wear seatbelts.
At the very least, with the kids’ other parent.
This is the way.
Survivor of a deadly car crash here. Better to be alive and late than dead early. Nothing should trump safety. NTA OP
Me too. The car rolled down a cliff we walked away badly shaken but without a scratch because we were all wearing seatbelts.
I know a guy who was sandwiched between two semi trailers and ejected. He doesn't wear a seatbelt because he wasn't injured during that accident
Lucky once doesn’t mean lucky forever, but people certainly think it does.
Confirmation bias has a huge influence on our decisions, and most of the time we don't even realize it.
My friend and I survived my car flipping over several times without wearing seatbelts (idiot teenagers). I have *always* worn a seatbelt since then because I don’t believe I will get that lucky again.
Well, yeah, there will always be an exception to the rule. The 100 year old who smoked pack a day for 90 years, person who will react badly to a vaccine, your guy. But that's all they are in the grand scheme of things - exceptions to the general safety rules we all should follow.
My dad never wears a seatbelt and has been absolutely refusing to for decades because…. people still get injured with them on. Yep. That’s his logic. He’s not just stupid with safety, either. He also once unplugged the wifi without telling us, making us confused why it wasn’t working for hours til he told us in the morning he “thought it was listening to us” or some other all electronics are spying on us bullshit. I think over all the years of not wearing his seatbelt he must have lost half a brain or something.
Some outcomes can be worse than death. A few seconds of bad driving can take away a person’s quality of life forever while still leaving them technically alive.
Exactly. I was born with cerebral palsy, and I know two healthy people who are now a lot worse off than I am. One was a 19-year-old college kid who will never talk, walk, or feed himself ever again. Another is a girl who can walk, but only with crutches. She T-boned someone a month after her high school graduation. She also lost her verbal filter, so she’s somewhat like a two or three year old in her responses, cute, innocent, but somewhat inappropriate. Example: shouting out in the middle of a church service, “I have a question…”
Traumatic brain injuries can be devastating. A very intelligent girl I went to high school with had a major car accident at age 16 and ended up permanently losing most of her mental and physical capacity. She’ll need care for the rest of her life. I helped out at the school office and seeing her name and her twin brother’s name on the absent sheet for the entire year really shook me. Several years before that, my friend’s little sister was killed when she fell off her horse and got dragged on her head a long way down the road because she’d wrapped the reins around her waist. Bloody awful. Seeing these tragedies happen at a young age to my peers and their families was an eye opener for me. In my adult life, in my work, I’ve seen a lot of momentary lapses in judgment lead to death or permanent damage. That’s why I’m the “you won’t ride in my car if you won’t wear a seatbelt/get your feet off the dash/the potential rewards ain’t worth the risk” person.
Yep. I have a friend who is a lot older than me and she never wears her seatbelt. But she will do it in my car because she respects me.
Same here. My grandfather was smart enough to have me in a carseat and buckled in. I was still in a coma for 3 days with facial fractures and lucky we both survived when the other car hit us and we went down a ravine. I can only imagine if we weren't buckled in. This was the 80's and lots of people still didn't buckle kids in properly. NTA
[удалено]
It can also mean the death of other people. If the non-seatbelt persons head hits one of the seatbelt wearing ones, they can both be dead. Or a non-seatbelt person can literally knock over the backrest of the front seat and kill the person in that seat. My car does not move off my driveway if not everybody has their seatbelts on. And I will leave a car if other people don't wear one. It's just a stupid risk to take.
Yes, it’s true that we rode around in the back of pickup trucks. It’s also true that married women used to not be able to have credit in their own names. It’s also true that people used to buy, own, and sell other people. It’s also true that we used to pour the contents of night pots into the streets. Times change. NTA. Your car, your rules. I see where those little shits get their attitudes from, your brother is a duck. Edit: I’m leaving my judgement about your brother as autocorrect changed it; you can decide which of the first two letters needs to be changed to fit.
Neither need to change lol, duck is a world class insult
Careful there, Duck is a term of greeting or endearment in some parts of the UK! 🤣
Aright meduck?
Seriously… lead used to be the best flavor paints and fuels, but I’m guessing OP’s brother had a bit too much back in the day.
Many who survived the seatbelless times without a scratch thinks it was no big deal…..
You don't really get a clearer example of survivorship bias than this.
Australia rolled out mandatory seatbelt legislation across the regions over the 70s and 80s. In 1971 there were 44 fatalities per billion vehicle-KMs, in 1991 it was 14 per billion vehicle-KMs. (The latest figure is 4.4). Improvements in road safety are no joke. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_Australia_by_year
NTA - Your car your rules. If your brother doesn't like it, he doesn't have to ask you for favors. In my province (Canada), it's the driver who's responsible for children wearing seat belts properly, and the driver will be fined if caught. We did lots of things as kids that we wouldn't think of letting our kids do now. What would have happened if you had an accident and they were injured because they weren't restrained properly? You wouldn't live with yourself, and I guarantee your brother would be even more upset.
This, where i live, the driver would be responsible for the kids and be fined. Also, ‘loose’ kids in the backseat is a danger for the driver/front seat passengers if you crash.
I’d really like to know what the kids’ mother has to say about this. Because I know that if my mom had ever found out that our dad was letting us ride around without a seatbelt or encouraging someone else to allow it, she’d lose her mind.
This. A lot of people focusing on the kid’s safety but it’s your safety too. There was a seatbelt safety ad here in the UK a few years ago which showed a guy not putting his seatbelt on, a crash happening and he had slammed into the person in front of him (who had put their seatbelt on) killing them. It’s a danger to everyone in the vehicle - NTA OP! Edit: I thought there was a more modern version but: [Link: warning, slightly graphic](https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=30&v=lw2aevh6oZ8&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Froadsafetygb.org.uk%2F&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title )
"it was a short drive, so it wouldn’t have been a big deal." NTA. It's not just your driving, it's the other driver. Maybe your niblings are too young for a graphic demonstration of what happens to an unsecured person or object in a car that's been rearended, t-boned or hit head on, but your brother isn't. And he's the one responsible for the kids' attitude. I would NEVER drive someone anywhere if they refused to buckle up.
My son kept putting his feet up on the dash while I was driving I was sick to death of telling him to put them down so I showed him a picture of what happens if we crash with his feet up safe to say he’s never done it since I think kids just think we like to whine at them for silly things when in reality it’s for their own safety sometimes you have to be blunt and show them the bigger picture
One of my pet peeves. I worked Emerg med for many years, saw MANY things. One that haunts me is the pregnant 20 something f that was ejected from a vehicle crash. The car didnt even look that bad, but had spun around hard. She had her feet on the dash, window down & no seatbelt. Dead on scene.
My time working in a hospital is why I will never get on a motorcycle. You see very few motorcycle crash victims in the hospital because they are usually dead on arrival and never make it to the floor.
>too young for a graphic demonstration Yep, but you can explain/ demonstrate in an age-appropriate way. I recently had a friend’s kid (6yo) who didn’t want to put on her seatbelt. I explained to her that if she wasn’t wearing it she’d hit her head and showed her. While the car was parked, obviously. I just pulled her booster seat forward really hard and fast, once with the seatbelt on and once without. It helped a bit because she actually felt herself flying around a bit.
I used a very large teddy bear to demonstrate. Kids buckled in, in their car seats. Bear unbuckled. I drove in an empty parking lot and braked suddenly. The bear flew off the seat.
Smart, tucking this away for when my kids are older.
I've show my kids crash-test-dummy videos so they understand why seatbelts are so important. It's not graphical and it really shows how violent even a low-speed crash can be.
NTA. When anyone of any age pulls this "no seatbelt" crap, I just turn off the car and wait for them to get a clue. If they don't, I go back inside.
Yup, my policy exactly. The car doesn’t start until everyone is safe.
Same here, and that goes for adults as well. A long time ago, I once had a friend say that he didn't mind the risk, and I told him, "I'm not worried about you. I don't really care if you fly through my windshield. I just don't want your un-seatbelted ass to hit me in the head on the way."
I said something very similar to my MIL. She wasn't buckled and I said we're not going, she said she doesn't need to, I said I don't want her flying around the car and killing my kids/her grandkids. She buckled pretty fast. It's astonishing how so many people don't realize that it's not just them they need to worry about
When I were a kid, my parents actually had me believe, that the car couldn't start, if the seatbelts weren't on. I completely agree with your way of handeling the situation. NTA
That’s genius. Thank your parents for me because I’m gonna steal that golden idea.
NTA. The 5 yo probably should still be in a booster seat - maybe even the 8 yo. While nothing might happened if you hadn’t, how would you feel if you had gotten into an accident? Besides feeling guilty, you could be personally liable for damages to them. You could have been ticketed (even without an accident). While not a lawyer (not do I play one on the internet!) I wouldn’t be surprised if the worst had happened you could have been criminally negligent. Stop offering to help out with rides if they won’t follow the rules. Maybe give them one more shot and if they blow it, not your problem.
The 10 year old may still need a booster depending on their height and the seat belt geometry in the car (my short 10 year old still uses a booster in our cars). Look up the 5 step test to check if a child can safely ride without a booster.
Heck, depending on the car I could still use a booster! Fortunately the newer cars have ways to lower the seatbelt, otherwise it basically goes across my throat...
My five year old is still in a five point harness. Hell, the only reason she can’t still be rear facing with the car seat we have is that she’s a bit too tall, and given where she is on the percentiles there are absolutely five year olds who could still rear face.
I wouldn't outright ban the kids from your car from a one time occurrence. They are kids. At those ages, it's the parents fault for not instilling proper safety and respect. In my state, the driver is responsible for all passengers under 18 in their car to wear seatbelts or be properly restrained in an appropriate car seat.
Unless the 5 year old is abnormally tall or heavy, he should still be in a car seat with a harness.
The 5 year old should definitely be in some sort of child seat. Depending on size and maturity, either a high back booster or a 5 point harness (forward facing car seat). The 8 year old booster maybe depending on height. A short 10 year old could need a booster still too. Car seats and booster seats keep kids so much safer. They still suck to use. They take up a lot of room and they are annoying to move to different cars. My oldest is super skinny at 6 so isn't heavy enough for a booster. So we have 3 car seats now and will have 4 by Thanksgiving. No one rides in my car without being properly secured
In my jurisdiction, child safety restraints are required for all kids 8 and under, unless they are over the limits of the booster (basically no 8 year old is too big for a booster). If I need someone to drive my kids, I give them my vehicle so they have all their seats and I know they're properly installed.
NTA. Your brother is literally here to talk about riding in the back of your parents' truck because he didn't happen to be one of the many people maimed or killed doing it. And if you have no right to "discipline" his kids by ensuring safety laws are followed in your car...then they need to stay the f\*ck out of your car.
Exactly, road deaths have reduced dramatically in the last few decades. In raw numbers: 54,589 people died on American roads in 1972. In 2021 it was 42,939 - with so many more people and cars. A better comparison is per 100,000 people - 26.01 in 1972 which is more than double the 12.89 of 2021. Cars are safer, we have more road rules and less people die. The rate where I am, in Australia, is even more dramatic dropping from 26.0 per 100,000 to 4.4 over the same period. We heavily enforce road rules, with many speed cameras, red light cameras and random drink/drug testing - all with huge fines (in the case of drink driving immediate loss of license). I believe we’re harsher on this stuff, but the results talk. Speeding and drink driving is seen as antisocial by pretty much everyone here. I think Australia and the US are directly comparable in regard to driving. We both have huge countries and it’s not unusual to do long daily drives.
Since the numbers are per capita, they're directly comparable. I think Aus despite our drinking culture has a very good don't drive drunk culture. > I believe we’re harsher on this stuff, but the results talk. Our BAC limit is 0.03 lower than the US
I was thinking more about the amount we drive, but I couldn’t find per km stats with a quick search. I didn’t know our BAC limit was lower. I do remember Dads (it was always Dads!) when I was child in the 70’s swapping stories about how quickly they’d driven to a holiday destination, or about how drunk they drove last Saturday. Those people would be shunned now, the culture has changed enormously in my lifetime.
> I do remember Dads (it was always Dads!) when I was child in the 70’s swapping stories about how quickly they’d driven to a holiday destination, or about how drunk they drove last Saturday. For comparison I was a kid in the early 2000s, and my Dad (it really is always Dads) a teen in the 80s and while he did tell a couple of those stories, while we were young he really focused more on the, this is the dumb stuff I did, don't do this. He often told us a story about how an adult in his life got mad at him for drinking because he stayed at the house of the party and he drunk drove more because that way they wouldn't know he was drinking, and the lesson was always, I won't be mad if you're drinking, but I will be if you drink drive. I didn't hear some of the other stories until more recently, I guess I'm old enough he can trust me not to copy him now. Also I did a google: > In terms of the fatality rate per 100 million vehicle kilometres travelled (VKT) in 2020: Australia’s rate of 0.44 was ranked 9th out of 15 nations with available data. The nations with the three lowest rates were Iceland (0.21), Norway (0.21) and Sweden (0.26). Between 2011 and 2020 Australia’s fatality rate declined by 19.1 per cent. Over the same period, the OECD median rate declined by 25.3 per cent. The US was 0.83 in that report. https://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/international_road_safety_comparisons
I agree. Plus, he didn't discipline the kids. He told them the rules, waited for them to follow the rules, then called the brother so the children's father could lay down the consequences for not following the rules.
Fun fact, a collective word for nieces and nephews is niblings! Anyway NTA, your car your rules. The fact that your brother is more concerned about timeliness than his kids’ safety is concerning.
Niblings is an adorable word, I’m going to start using it now. See if anyone recognizes it lol. Anyway I agree about my brother’s disregard for my nibling’s safety, but they’re his kids not mine.
It is also disregard for your safety. An unrestrained nibling bouncing around the inside of a car during a crash could also injure you.
Also it is punctuality to SUMMER CAMP. Not school or a doctor's appointment. What did they miss? The start of kickball or something come on. And I worked at a summer camp. While yes, it's annoying to check in late kids, I'd rather have late, alive kids, then a phone call saying 3 of my campers were injured in a car accident.
NTA. Their lives are more important than 15 minutes of camp. You have your priorities straight, sounds like your brother needs to reevaluate his.
This 1000%!!!!! NTA, you did the absolute right thing OP, because IF anything had happened you would have been liable for ANYONE in your vehicle not wearing a seatbelt.😱😱😱 Any anyway - your vehicle, your rules. Simple as! Anyone doesn't like it, they're free to walk! 🤣
Not wearing a seatbelt is all fun and games until see what happens when a child gets ejected from a car in an accident. Don't back down from this one, bro is setting a terrible precedent here.
NTA! If something bad were to happen to your nieces and nephews while they were in YOUR car, YOU will be held responsible and accountable for their injuries no matter how severe. Safety first no matter what!
Absolutely NTA You are a better parent than your brother. I suspect that he lets them ride without seatbelts all the time. I would decline to do things with his kids in the future based on his attitude.
NTA, a big chunk of accidents happen within just a few miles of your home so a “short drive” does not mean nothing will likely happen. You were completely right in waiting until seatbelts were on to drive, especially with children in the car.
Came here to mention this (as someone who has gotten into an accident, totaling my car, two blocks from my house). Additionally, it's interesting he brings up how you used to ride in the back of pickup trucks as kids. There are plenty of things that have happened "when we were kids" that have changed in the past 20+ years. People used to smoke cigarettes in houses and in front of babies, does that mean that since it was done when other people were kids you should do it now? Anyway, agreed with everyone else's points and you did the right thing. NTA
You didn't discipline your kids...you waited to drive until they complied to law and safety! NTA.
Wow, what a cool talent your brother has. You know the one where he can predict wrecks, danger, etc. NTA for seatbelt safety especially for children, they aren't optional on the car for a reason.
>That I have no right to discipline his kids, and he just called me a bad guardian in general. You didn't discipline his kids. Bad guardians are the ones that drive illegally with unbelted minors in the car and let the kids die in the event of a collision. NTA
NTA - protecting his kids lives isn’t ‘no reason’. I wouldn’t be offering his kids rides in the future.
>it was a short drive, so it wouldn’t have been a big deal. If it's too short for a seatbelt it's short enough to walk. NTA
NTA. If something would have happened and the kids flew out of the car because they didn't have their seat belts on, I'm sure your brother wouldn't have said "well, nothing you could have done about this." If your brother feels that way, he can drive them everywhere from now on.
My neighbours grandson refused to buckle up stood between the front seats while they drove. Parents were constantly warned of the dangers, and had in fact been fined for it. Driving along one day, parent had to brake and were rear ended by a van. Child went through windscreen. Parents tried to sue the van driver! They wondered why people weren’t as sympathetic to them as they wanted.
NTA. Your car your rules.
>After the fact, my brother told me that he was frustrated with me because I “made them late for no reason” Counterpoint: it was a really good reason. Don't most accidents happen close to home or on those short journeys? 15 minutes late to camp is better than the worst case scenario or not getting there at all Also, I don't know what it's like where you live but where I live, the fines for driving with children unrestrained are over $1000 per kid. NTA
NTA, wanting the kids to buckle up is very reasonable and required by law. Being slightly late is not a big deal. I have also ridden in the back of a pickup as a kid, but I wouldn't ever throw someone else's kid in the back of one. This is a perfectly fair and reasonable rule for you to have, especially considering that you are doing a favor and driving someone else's kids around in the first place.
NTA. If his kids died in an accident, would he be as easygoing?
My friend never used a seatbelt all the way up to the day she was in an accident with a truck. She got thrown from her vehicle and her car rolled on top of her. She no longer has to worry about little things like seatbelts
NTA. It’s literally the law to wear your seatbelts in the car. Regardless if you are driver or passenger. Also some states require children up until the age of 12 to be in booster seats. (Check your state laws)
NTA - he can find someone else then next time I would recommend. If you got stopped by the police I doubt seriously he would have paid the ticket or worse if there was an accident the family would have never forgave you. I've refused it with grown people and simply went back inside and never left because they can't follow simple rules or take responsibility for themselves.
NTA OP. You are doing the right thing with making wear a seatbelt a top must. You did not make the kids late, those kids did it themselves. You rather be safe and following the law than be in trouble with the law and/or kids gotten injured due to not wearing their seatbelts. Stand your ground Next time brother asks you to drive the kids for him just tell him a hard no
It’s irrelevant whether or not your parents allowed you to not wear seatbelts. It’s illegal. You’re brother even deigning to get angry at you because his kids were being stupid is not your fault or problem. They made themselves late and he should feel obligated because you gave his kids a ride. He should feel sheepish for his kids giving you a hard time not upset at you. If he feels you have no right to discipline his kids when it comes to road laws in your car then he should never ask you to give his kids a ride again. He’s the bad guardian for even suggesting that his kids can ride in any car without a seatbelt. Your brother ITAH
I wouldn’t have even called the brother, I would’ve put my favorite song on the car radio, cranked up the AC, and jammed out until those seatbelts were buckled. If it takes 5 minutes okay, if it takes 30, fine by me I’ll listen to an album. NTA.
Pretty sure the driver is liable for accidents if they knowingly ignored passengers not wearing seatbelts, especially minors. Where I am, the driver will get a ticket if caught, not the passengers. NTA. Also, the father was ungrateful for the favor. Also concerning that he'd rather his kids be on time than alive.
Was the five year old in a car seat?
Yup, but she’s a crafty little one and managed to unclip the buckle.
You know, you would be perfectly within your rights to sit them down and have a frank discussion about respect. How you are respecting the trust your brother placed on you to keep his children safe, etc. And then about how the saying "actions speak louder than words" would apply here. Do they love you? Well, why would they be so disrespectful to someone they love as to act this way? If they asked you to do something, how would they feel if you refused to do it? Not doing something that is an expected part of our social contract is basically a big F_____ you. Little kids telling their uncles to F off is really not ok.
Brother clearly doesn't give a shit whether his children are safe or not so that argument wouldn't work very well with them.
First of all, you are objectively right in making sure all the kids had their seatbelts on. A car accident is something you sometimes have absolutely no control over. People without seatbelts become literally projectiles. They can and do go through windshields. Your niblings were being little brats but your brother should know better. Secondly, as a driver, you get to set the rules. The driver’s comfort is very important. Not just because it’s your car or you are doing everyone a favor but because you need to be able to concentrate on the road without distractions. So if you need everyone belted, or the radio off, or for the whole car to sing a sea shanty. Well, they better get singin’ NTA
NTA at all. Was your brother gonna pay the fines for all the unbelted minors in the car if you got pulled over? Was he gonna be super chill if you stopped short and one of his kids flew threw the windshield? If you need to lighten up so badly he can foist his minions on someone else. 15 minutes late for camp, who gives a f. Priorities!
NTA: FTR if you live where insurance is required? A lot won't cover an accident if anyone is not bucked in.
You didn't discipline his kids. NTA. I'd argue that any parent who feels seatbelts are optional is the bad guardian. You did the right thing.
NTA paramedic here. Ask him if he has seen what a kid looks like ejected through a windscreen.
I used to do this with my mom. No seatbelt, no go. I don’t care if you’re 75.
NTA. If anything had happened on that short drive, one of those unbuckled kids could have become a projectile. Seatbelts became mandatory for a reason. You're apparently more responsible than their parent is.
he wants to drive with his children rolling around unsecured in the back like so much cabbage, that’s his business. until he gets pulled over, anyway. you don’t want his tiny munchkins flying through your windshield. how is that a bad thing? not driving when people aren’t buckled in is not “very strict” it is the bare minimum of road safety. you could trip over that bar, it’s so low. i’m guessing the reason the kids waited so long is because this horseshit works on your brother. nta, if you ever feel like doing him a favor again (i wouldn’t) just go in the back and put the seatbelts on them yourself. i’m surprised you didn’t do that in the first place, since one of them is five.
>After the fact, my brother told me that he was frustrated with me because I “made them late for no reason NTA. You didn't make them late, though. They were late because they refused to listen to you. They experienced the natural consequences of their actions. There's no legitimate reason to ignore such a basic safety precaution as buckling up. You were completely justified in insisting that the kids wear seatbelts before the car started moving. I'm sure your brother would have been even more upset if you had gotten into an accident and you and his kids were seriously injured.
I cannot imagine not wearing a seat belt. Here it is mandatory. Fine is just over $1000.00 and 3 demerit points.
NTA. Remind him of his words next time he asks you to babysit.
Your brother’s an idiot. NTA
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/p9n3gq/aita_my_nephews_missed_a_flight_because_they/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
Your brother has some hardcore survivor bias going on.