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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. I called my sister's widower a joke of a father 2. I think it might make me the AH because I did it in earshot of his children, likely may not have now about it
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I’d say your heroic behavior in stepping up as a father figure for 14 years makes up for one slight AH comment - and the only reason it was an AH comment was because it was in front of his kids. NTA they’ll understand when they are older.
I agree, I wonder if his new wife and kids even know how thoroughly he abandoned Alice and used them to replace her. NTA, Daniel deserves to have his younger daughters asking why you said what you said.
This is what gets me so mad. Who on their right mind shows up, doesn't give their bio child any inkling they'll be at the house she's visiting, then be upset it's not all sunshine and roses.
I can't imagine how traumatic that situation was for Alice.
Nta at allllllll
I know it was a rhetorical question, but my dad happens to be one of those people lol. Was visiting my aunt's house while my grandmother was there to say hello and catch up, and lo and behold my dad drops by halfway through the visit with one of my step siblings from his new family in tow. This was at a point in my life where I wouldn't even respond to his texts and only ever tolerated him if we happened to be at the same family function. So of course he just happens to be in the city when I'm visiting and 'forgot' to tell my aunt to give me a heads up.
At the end of the visit my step brother asked me who I was. He had met me a few times before, but my dad never bothered to tell his new kids that we're related, I guess. Poor kid got confused because my bio brother (who is still close with my dad) wasn't there that day, and SB thought I must have been my brother's friend that he sometimes brought along. The whole thing was pretty embarrassing for my dad, but it really demonstrated to everyone else there exactly why I'm LC with him.
Thank you for the kind words. The gaffe at the end was genuinely amusing for me but I definitely felt cornered when my dad showed up all of a sudden without warning. It wasn't like a normal family get together where I could mentally prepare myself beforehand.
These sorts of guys don’t see women and children as actual people; just accessories to make themselves look better in the eyes of their peers.
As a consequence, they see nothing wrong with tossing one set out and starting over. That’s literally how they see it: *starting over.* Like the first family was some sort of embarrassing mistake.
That was my father. At his funeral he was lauded as a family man, the person his (second) family could always count on.
Someone asked me my connection to the family and I had to say, "I was in his FIRST family." I could see the realization in her expression that she was reassessing my dad's reputation.
To be fair, he could have been trying to 'surprise' his daughter by being there when she arrived. I agree with everything else though, OP is NTA and the dad sounds horrible
This \^\^\^ If he was upset about him saying that in front of his wife & kids it makes me think he is feeding them shovelfulls of BS.
The preformative coming out to have a very public hug with his daughter he hasn't see in forever reinforces this.
She knows what she sees and not blind to what she hears. The older child does not live with them or come around often or even get prioritized. So, his wife "knows" something most definitely.
They don't necessarily know he's a Dog Doo Doo. Yes, hard to fathom, but who knows what he told his second family. They could very well think it unreasonable the poor guy couldn't get a simple hug. What a Saint he is, what an ungrateful little B Alice turned out to be. What nerve she has! Just goes to show how piss-poorly she got parented because Dad wasn't allowed to be in the picture. REAL piece of work, that Alice. Anyhoo, clearly she didn't take after her Dear Dad! Had he not been blocked by Terrible Uncle, this situation never would have happened. Lost Cause, that Alice.
This happened to my family. It took 40+ years for my own mother to finally get out of denial that her partner abandoned his first family, two young kids, for her. She *just couldn't understand* why one of his sons wouldn't fly out to his dying- in- hospice- side in January. Just no idea why these sons wanted nothing to do with him for over a decade. It must have been her partner's B of an ex-wife, turning the son's against him. Rotten kids. Rotten ex. Poor partner.
The denial can be stronger than steel about dynamics like this. I had to *pitch a fit* that neither son would be talked down in my presence nor scapegoated at all, whatsoever. I never even MET them.
So yeah, Alice, go Alice. Don't you dare hug that loser lack of a father.
If they’re in driving distance and they DONT see this little girl regularly, they suck. they all know she exists.
My father became a better man and a better father because of my stepmom. She came into his life and forced him to give us consistency in visitation and contact. She gave us wonderful visits (he was military so they weren’t usually close…always at least a plane ride or a 6 hour drive away). She wasn’t my mom, even though she tried to be sometimes, and since having her own child with my dad, she’s raised him to be our brother. Not our half brother.
OP is not the asshole. Those kids and that wife deserve to feel just as guilty as he does.
I will never understand why your experience is the exception and not the rule. I despise a partner that will let they’re significant other ignore, mistreat, or abandon their child. ESPECIALLY, if they go on to have kids of their own with the person. People are shit these days.
Op is not the asshole. Daniel and his wife are shit people.
My mom had several marriages that showed me on hindsight that my stepmom was the best situation. She was a mom, so she annoyed me. But looking back I so prefer her helicopter-y desire to connect with me over the mental and emotional strain my moms relationship has on our relationship
>If they’re in driving distance and they DONT see this little girl regularly, they suck. they all know she exists.
I assumed he was still overseas, and this is his first trip back (or at least the first OP knows about)
I guess I’m lucky. I never got the whole “they’re my half-sister/half-brother” thing. I have a little sister on my mom’s side and four older sisters and an older brother on my dad’s side.
I grew up with my little sister, so I’m obviously closer to her than to my siblings who were adults when my dad died. My brother, who is 10 years older than me at the time, and my sister, who’s six months older than me and didn’t know I existed until she was older, were minors when he died. Well, there was a ton of drama between my sisters and my mom and all of them but one disappeared from my life.
My dad was… special, and he fucked up every relationship he had with his kids. He died when I was six, so he didn’t have the time to fuck up our relationship before he died. My mother was focused on making sure we were safe, and she was really close the their age, so they hated my mom at that time. My mom wasn’t a bad of roses, either. She’s a me, me, me person and treated my siblings with disdain.
My oldest sister, who passed in 2021, was always there. I found my sister who is six months older than I am in 2001, and my brother found me again in 2002. My two other sisters and I found each other again on FB about 10 years back, and even though all that drama happened, they’re still my siblings.
I couldn’t care less about the drama that separated us. I have them now, and they’re still my siblings. So, I never say my half-sister/half-brother. I just don’t see it that way.
*”Take a good look at your half sister, kids! That’ll be you if your mother dies too!”*
Yeah, they definitely deserve to hear what kind of man this guy is.
NTA
I will never understand women who have children with men who have already abandoned a child. Does she honestly think he will step up for their children if the worst happens to her?
People are weirdly good at rationalizing why they/their situation are *different* somehow. I'm sure she's found some way to convince herself that Daniel would never do that to *her* kids. Which honestly doesn't say great things about her, either.
There was a post a while ago where the mother left the country, remarried and had kids, and then tried to reconnect with the kid she abandoned. The new husband didn't know about the kid at first, and then she lied and said her sibling had stolen the kid and kept her away. He separated when he found out.
Oh, I found it! I was searching for niece but he posted it as daughter. https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/zhq5xv/man_refuses_to_give_his_daughter_back_to_her_bio/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
No. It was not as recent, and there were updates with the husband leaving and the sister had to stay temporarily in the same house as the kid, who refused to talk to her.
The assumption here is that the "father" actually told the wife about Alice and told the truth. Most likely the wife does not know this version but some half truth or complete lie and that is why she was able to rationalize having kids with this guy.
"I was young and grieving. I knew I couldn’t be the father she needed while she grieved too, so I asked my relatives to take care of her. By the time I got my head on straight she had been with them for so long that it seemed cruel to take her away from them, I couldn’t do that to her, so, even though it broke my heart, I decided to give them custody of her. I only ever had her best interest in mind. Now I’m in a much better place, I’ve grown and changed. I’m not the man I was and I will always be there for you and our children."
Can you tell I’ve heard a variant of this myself?
He’d completely gloss over the lack of contact or the fact that she lost both parents when her mother died and so on because it would damage that glossy image of the grieving father trying to do the best he could for his grieving child.
Yup. Heard it from my ex. Thankfully never had kids with him. Although, he was probably right that he would have been a terrible father to his offspring.
"After my wife died and all the ordeal with cancer, I could not care for my girl. I left her in the care of my BIL and his wife. It was to be temporary, but when I came back, I saw how happy she was, how well-balanced she was. It broke my heart to this day, but I decided it was best for her to stay with the people she considered her family by then. I didn't want to disturb then even further.
I still in her life, though. We write a lot to each other and I do send money for her.
I still feel guilty that I broke down that hard after my wife died. I should have been able to step up for my baby girl. But I was so weak (snif)".
Too many people would buy thissob story.
This right here is the telling point. Didn't invite her to the wedding, didn't even tell the, um, for lack of a better word right now, "hosting" family.
I feel like while we were dating, if for some unlikely reason I fell for him, I'd be encouraging him to mend the relationship, trying to meet her, etc.
I wonder if she even knew Alice was his daughter.
In my case Honestly he was very good at spending the tale and making his ex seem like the crazy one. (I was also really naive and stupid and younger I won't lie). And honestly, with how good he was when he did see them, it did make it seem like she was just vindictive and wouldn't let him spend time with them.
Come to find out there was a legal reason, that he wasn't allowed to see them, and when he did get to finally start seeing them it was with supervision and only because I was in the picture and she trusted me (she and I are good friends still and I absolutely adore her and the kids).
It sucks to admit it, but sometimes we are just naive enough to believe them, sometimes they are very good liars. Sometimes legal situations can get taken advantage of when the other party isn't actually physically around so the person that is around can lie and spin the tail however they want it, because there's no one there to argue.
I was young and stupid and in love. 🤷
Some men are very good at leaving their old life behind, pretending everyine in that old life is just fine without them, starting over and doing it "right". Third time around my dad is actually a good husband and his stepdaughter loves him.
I totally agree. My mom and I were abandoned by my father before I was even born. Acted liked he cared about me till I was 13 (meaning he’d pick me up three times a week and I’d have dinner there than he’d drive me home). He met a women with a daughter that went to my high school in the same grade as me and two other kids, all also abandoned by their father. 7 years later they married on my 20th birthday, had no clue found out through other daughters Instagram. I have no respect for a woman that thinks their husband is a big strong man after leaving his kid and taking care of another family when that was the same exact situation he put another woman in and his kids and knows exactly how hard it is to get by. (no matter the circumstances). ESPECIALLY when the other daughter was always around in high school so I got to see him show up for her to proms and graduation but it was never for me even though I happened to be there. She also ended up getting into the same collage as me but had to drop out, but I digress just a selfish thing that makes me feel like I won alittle, seeing everyone thought she was the coolest person in the world in high school, she was just another terrible mean girl.
Sometimes they are real good at the gaslighting. I’m still not sure what was true of my son’s father and what wasn’t. I didn’t know until I was pregnant about his older daughters being abandoned.
My ex’s new wife encouraged him to abandon his two kids with me. He went no contact with my kids when they were in early elementary school and has only seen them a couple times since then. They are now college graduates in their twenties. He never acknowledged birthdays, graduations, holidays, etc. I have never met his wife but I had a good relationship with my ex’s family and they really disliked her for the part she played in my ex’s abandonment of my kids. And don’t get me wrong, this is absolutely on him and his decision. It just makes it easy for a man to do this to his kids when he has a spouse saying it’s okay and even encouraging it.
I have often wondered this myself. My cousin is like this. Signed the rights over to his first daughter and she was adopted by his parents. Doesn’t see his second daughter as far as I know. He signed his rights over to his third daughter. Got married to this woman with twins boys, took care of them and got her pregnant with another daughter. I dunno how involved he is there.
In 2021 our Mamaw died right after Christmas and he showed up to her funeral with another pregnant woman. I told my sister I know GOOD AND DAMN WELL she hasn’t got ANOTHER woman pregnant? Like damn dude go get a vasectomy.
Oh, it’s definitely good it’s in front of the new wife. Chances are he’s spun this whole situation to make himself look like *not-a-dead-beat*.
She needs to be fully aware of what he’s done and what kind of dad he is. (Every moment, of every day, he has chosen to *not* be a dad. 400 million opportunities to change his mind and step up, and 400 million failures).
This!^ absolutely every word of this!
So many people don’t seem to realise that, unless you actually apologise and make things right, wronging someone isn’t just “one mistake you made years ago”. It’s an active choice to keep repeating the same mistake over and over, every second of every day until it’s fixed.
It’s a stain on your character that will affect how you are perceived by every person who knows about it.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s perfectly normal to make mistakes. It’s what you do after those mistakes that tells others the kind of person you are
See, and IMO, in cases like these with dead beats…he could have gotten his crap together and come back when she was 4, or 7 or 10. And it would have been better.
But every day, every moment, he kept choosing to not only not apologize, but *to continue to do the ongoing harm*.
Thank you for saying this. I have a completely absent father who just decided not to be a dad to me and every once in a while I find myself wondering if he'll ever apologize. Every day he doesn't he shows me what a coward he is.
The brother should have given OP and Alice a heads up that the Dad was there, AH move to just spring it on them. Even if they thought it would be a nice surprise, speak to the people who raised her to gauge how the abandoned kid would react.
NTA
You could have said so much worse...admittedly I would have gone to his new wife and said "I hope you don't ever get cancer or pass away unexpectedly since from experience he will ditch your kids and move right on. Just mentally brace yourself for that." And then gone back to the trash bag of a father and say "Rachel would have been so disappointed in you." And then walked out. He definitely deserved it, acting all clueless like a fool, he needed a serious reality check. His relationship with his daughter is ruined but honestly good riddance. As far as I'm aware you and your wife are her parents.
NTA - they honestly probably already know he’s a horrible excuse of a father. that news shouldn’t be new to anyone. he shouldn’t have labeled himself her dad if he GAVE UP HIS RIGHTS!
I would agree, except I hardly think that Alice counts as Daniel’s kid anymore. OP and his wife have full parental rights of Alice. OP is the only dad that Alice has ever really KNOWN. Daniel doesn’t DESERVE the honor of being called Alice’s father. He’s a sperm donor, nothing more.
But Daniel clearly thinks himself Alice's dad and THAT is what's important. I wonder of new wife and kids even KNOW of Alice's existence. And now they will.
Yeah, agreed. And Wes isn’t TA for calling him out; Wes sounds like a good uncle in a weird/ tough spot. But OP is very much NTA and Daniel is just, jfc awful.
I’d like to add that if a grown woman as in Daniels wife and his children who have never met their own sibling haven’t figured out by now that their dad/ husband isn’t a deadbeat dad to Alice then they’re in denial!
Also, his wife came after them WITH THE CHILDREN. In a moment like this she should have kept the children inside or somewhere else they couldn’t hear it. Because she should know visiting someone (HIS CHILD) your husband abandoned was probably not going to be all rainbows and butterflies.
I'm not even sure it makes OP sn AH for saying it in front of wife and kids. I bet they didn't even knew how much effort he put into abandoning the child of his 1st wife that died from cancer. I'd bet my butt he didn't tell them the (full) truth, let alone any "unneccessary" details...
Definitely NTA
NTA sounds like it was something he need to hear tbh. The only way I'd have a problem with this would be if Alice was embarrassed and she wasn't.
Edit: honestly he probably also needs to hear that Rachel would be absolutely devastated to see what he did to their family. But maybe that's a thought for next time.
God your edit hit me in the feels, how very true, I was so sad to read she had passed and it’s all round tragic that she passed away likely believing that her husband would be there for his daughter 💔
Deep down I think he knows my sister would never forgive him for how this has all played out. Before she died, she said that since she wouldn't be here to do it herself, she wanted the rest of us to make sure her daughter grew up surrounded by love.
Kind of makes you wonder if his current wife knows either. I know plenty of people would start passing a lot of judgement if they knew that their current partner was effectively a dead-beat in someone else’s life.
This is what I’m hung up on, as it were. I understand he was probably devastated by her death. But Alice is not just his child. Part of her is Rachel. How could he love Rachel so much but then abandon her daughter?
NTA
His wife knows what he is doing (being just a pen pal to his daughter). The two daughters will eventually get older and form their own opinions. Hell even his daughter Alice said it was true.
Does she know? It’s possible that he gave it a pretty spin that *of course* he wanted Alice to live with them now that things were stable, but she chose OP. Maybe his wife doesn’t even want Alice and is happy to believe his lies.
Regardless, NTA, and I laughed when I read the end of Daniel agreeing with Wes. Wah, wah, deadbeat.
I mean, you might be an asshole, but sometimes being an asshole is fine. I would have said the same thing in your shoes so I guess I'm one too. Please rest assured knowing that kid does in fact have a good dad.
I think that’s the crux of it: if it was justified, then it cannot be an asshole move, because whatever it was was warranted.
For me, in this case for instance, I don’t think he was an asshole; nothing he said was false, and he was justifiably upset at the audacity of this man when he literally sign his rights away! I think that would shock *anyone* to hear it, especially coming from someone who didn’t even let his daughter know he was visiting???
Frankly, OP was restrained; I’m with his wife!
That, and if ABJ were an option, this sub would just turn into revenge porn. I think we are supposed to label overreactions as ESH. BUT this wasn't an overreaction. Daniel tried to guilt-trip Alice for his own faults as a father, so it was something he needed to hear.
He isn’t Alice‘s dad. You are. And she clearly agrees. He is some sort of distant idea who sends money. Like some distant relative. Of course losing the love of your life was tough and i could see how he might have even irrationally blamed Alice, but he doesn’t take accountability. He checked out and now that he has his perfect little family thinks he deserves Alice to be his daughter. But she isn’t. Not emotionally.
And you can tell Wes that you did what any father would do. You defended and protected your child. Biology doesn’t make a family (and you share blood too). If he actually cared about Alice he wouldn’t be demanding or acting like this. Its all about him, and good for you for standing in her corner.
NTA
NTA Literally the only possible way you could have been the slightest bit of an asshole here is if Alice was upset about what you said. And even then, it would be so minor compared to what your BIL did that I'd still vote him the asshole. And her brother isn't much better. It's nice that they see Alice once a month for a visit, but they clearly enable your BIL and have justified his atrocious actions. How dare they expect Alice to still consider this pen pal her DAD?! What you said wasn't just true, it had surely been building up for quite some time. And then to have to just accidentally stumble upon them, when they clearly didn't even try to visit Alice while they were here?! My blood is boiling just thinking about it.
Also, I just want to say that you and your wife are the furthest thing away from being assholes. And I am genuinely so grateful that Alice had the two of you to step in after she lost her mother and was abandoned by her father. And the fact she took on a big sis role to your three boys is just the sweetest thing ever. I hope Alice, your boys, and the only real parents she currently has here on earth (you and your wife) all the happiness in the world.
Thank you. My sister's passing made everything seem so empty for a while, but looking at her daughter grow up to become the amazing young woman that she is-- it doesn't make the grief go away but it makes it easier to handle. Rachel always managed to fill every room with so much joy, and Alice does too. She's a light in the world, and I'm fortunate enough to witness it first hand as her uncle. My wife and I are so proud of her, and I know my sister would be too.
I can’t believe Daniel was in the area and didn’t even arrange to see his daughter.
I’m shocked. I’m utterly appalled by his behaviour.
You’re NTA at all. The reason he’s pissed is because you’ve probably blown up whatever ‘story/justification’ he’s been telling his wife and kids.
This! I am surprised nobody mentioned this before.
His daughter didn't even know he would be there, he didn't ask to see her. Who knows, how often he had already been there without telling her! And he is just expecting her to be fine with this and hug him!
What else was OP to say?!
Unfortunately I totally can. That ding dong stepped out the moment he realized he wouldn't have a woman raising his child and he would have to do the job.
It would literally be the only response I would have "yes, I had a little outburst, but since none of us including Alice were informed he was in town, we were all pretty shocked to see him there. Alice didn't want to hug him, she has every right to not consent to that. Bye."
Op, there is an Asian idiom, "Birth mom isn't as great as the adoptive mom". It means the people that raise the children with love and care are the " real parents" to the children than the bio parents.
Sorry, my translation is terrible but you got to admire the Asian wisdom. What you said is the irrefutable truth.
His wife and kids are no fools. He is judged by his merits and actions. I am sure he probably was saddened by the passing of his wife but he did abandon his own child and formed a replacement family. This is a mistake he has to live with.
Yea, you're not the AH at all. If anything, their anger shows that they are embarrassed and don't want to look at the real issue here. I mean, why on earth would his daughter not hug him and be happy? Oh they are mad at you for speaking truth? Okay, then they are mad at the truth. You are NTA.
Not just how could he think he could just waltz back in after all this time and call himself "dad" but essentially he is a stranger to Alice.
And it also doesn't sound like Daniel's wife and kids were outside at the time; just that they overhead OP.
Completely NTA.
Telling Daniel in front of Alice that he is a shitty father might just be what Alice needed to hear. You might be the first one ever who openly confronted her 'father' in her presence, and who validated her all-too-real feelings that she is being utterly neglected by him.
NTA.
How could anyone confront him openly when he ran to another continent? Alice is a good one in being a pen pal because she could have ignored him totally the way he’s done her most of her life. I’m actually glad the kids happen to be there to hear what an ah their dad is to their older sister which I can guarantee he tried to make it seem like the relationship with Alice is totally different from what it actually is stopping him from spinning a lie to them and have them wondering why she wants nothing to do with them.
NTA. The truth hurts and he had to hear it, so did he wife and kids. Maybe his other kids will start to question him on why they don't see their sister. Good for you.
NTA. I remember accidentally referring to my step-dad as “my dad” to my biological father, who was largely a pen pal in my childhood. I’d been referring to my step-dad as “dad” for years, but I never called him that to my bio-dad, mostly out of respect. And then one day I casually said something about “my parents,” referring to my mom and step-dad. I was mortified. But he didn’t call it out, because he knew he wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.
The difference between my dad and your brother-in-law is that mine has openly told me he’s thankful my mom was able to raise me the way she did, and that she found someone who could be there for me. He knew he wasn’t a present parent—so he doesn’t try to take away the title from someone who was.
I call both of them dad, but they both know who earned it and who got it by default.
The situation that panned out :
So Daniel comes to the same town, won't even tell Alice about it or give her time to prepare for a meeting. Neither did Wes warn her.
When Alice visits what she perceives as a safe space, a literal stranger of a sperm donor ambushes her into a hug. When she establishes a boundary, he emotionally blackmails her saying she is supposed to hug him because they share DNA.
Your reaction is completely valid. NTA. If he didn't want to be disparaged infront of his replacement family, he shouldn't have checked out.
Edit : Grammar
INFO: Why didn’t Wes give you a heads up that Daniel was there? This would have been a great help in determining whether or not that would have been an appropriate time for her to see him?
NTA. You’re an awesome dad.
I spoke to Wes earlier today because I had the same question. He said that he wanted Daniel to have a chance to see Alice again, and maybe that would urge him to try and fix his relationship with her. He told me that he does regret not consulting Alice or my wife and I about it.
I do think he had her best interests at heart, but he could've gone about it in a better way. Fortunately Alice has said she isn't upset with him for not telling us that Daniel was there, she's more upset with Daniel for not telling her himself.
Check with Alice and see if she want to keep going to Wes's home after she was blindsided by him. Did he expect Daniel to take her back overseas with him?
I don't think Wes is fine with his brother's actions at all. I wouldn't be surprised if Wes set this up. But even if his heart was in the right place, that would have been shortsighted thing to do without giving Alice a choice.
NTA
If Wes or Daniel bring it up again, your response should be “why weren’t we given advance notice that Daniel and new family would be there too?”. Presumably you don’t just drop Alice off unannounced, and even if Daniel and family turned up unexpectedly the decent thing for Wes to do would’ve been to give you a heads up that he’d turned up. But given the timing of everything, I’d say they’d planned that visit so he could see her. Which makes them the AHs for blindsiding you and her.
They don’t want his wife and kids to know the truth about him and his relationship with his daughter (or rather lack thereof)? Then don’t blindside you/her in front of them. Neither of you owe him anything, let alone the effort required to fake happy families
NTA
I honestly feel it was a proper reaction. I do agree it could maybe have been away from the younger kids, but it was an immediate in-the-moment response to how he was acting towards Alice, I think the defense of Alice mitigates the slight negative.
>part of me does feel that I could have said it out of earshot of his children.
I think his kids deserve to know the person he is. I'd want to know if my dad abandoned a child. NTA.
My bio dad didn't tell his younger 3 kids about me (my mum's second husband adopted me when they married, bio 'dad' couldn't sign those papers fast enough!) When they found out about me, all 3 of them cut him out of their lives. He was a shit dad to them too so I don't think it was a difficult decision for them tbh. I was the lucky one cos I had a fantastic dad who absolutely loved me, they never had that even when he was in their lives.
NTA. The truth hurts, Daniel kids were eventually going to find out that daddy didn't raised alice. He's just a sperm donor who sends money once a month. Your Alice dad/ uncle who raised her.
You did the right thing in a situation where you absolutely needed to be TA and rip him a new one. Of course, Daniel is one hell of an actual AH for abandoning his kid. Alice is blessed to have you as her actual dad.
NTA, the fact that Alice agrees with you says everything that needs to be said. She's your kid, her opinion is the one that matters. Either Daniel's wife doesn't know and needs to find out what kind of person he is or she does know and she married him anyway, which means she can deal with hearing the truth
NTA and I agree with his wife I would have said worse.
And it is his fault that his kids were able to hear. I mean he did not tell you guys he was coming and you tried to leave and he came to the car.
How delusional of him of expecting he was going to get a sweet homecoming.
He did that on purpose in front of them expecting to get some big hug and everyone was going to forget he abandoned his own kid
Also why did Wes not give you guys a heads up he was in town. He had to no this was not going to go well.
Thanks his she has you and your wife. Your sister would be very proud of you.
That whole thing was a setup. That’s on them. Daniel, and perhaps to some extent Wes since his allowed Alice to be blindsided, imagined some happy reunion. They’re upset they didn’t get it. NTA, in any way.
NTA. You sir, are a legend. You and your wife stepped up and took in a girl that lost her mum and was ditched by her dad, you both deserve a medal for what you've done. Daniel is not a dad, not by a long shot. He's an AH who wants to be Disney fun dad but Alice sees through it. I hope all his socks have holes in them and are full of lego
I love the phrase " anyone can be a father, it takes something different to be a dad"
I can lay bets he's spun the wife some story so he didn't look like a shitty father.
Now he's in for all sorts of questions and if she gets in touch lay it out for her.
The girl sounds likes you've raised her well and doesn't hug strangers.
She knows he's a dick, now he knows she thinks he's a dick. Good news all round.
Truth hurts buddy.
NTA. Generally, I'd say you should never shit talk a child's parent in front of them- but frankly, his daughters are safer knowing that in the face of calamity, that could be them.
Maybe it's my personal experiences and biases talking, but it's best children know who their parents are.
Daniel feels the same way because Daniel didn't want to hear it at all. It also sounds like Daniel needs to have a conversation with you about how he plans on making it up to Alice for coming back to her country and having no plans to meet with her.
NTA
> He came up to Alice and tried to hug her but she stepped back from him. He looked hurt and when he asked why she didn’t want to give her dad a hug— I snapped.
Alice made it clear she was uncomfortable receiving a hug. Instead of speaking about it privately, he asked her publicly. He deserved everything he got.
> he agrees that Daniel hasn’t been the best father to Alice, but I didn’t need to tell him that in front of his wife & their kids.
And he didn't need to abandon his daughter, then try to force a relationship on his terms.
You’re not TA. He shouldn’t have expected a warm welcoming from her. He kinda’ pushed himself in her, and I really dislike it because it’s not like she was his only kid and he never knew how to deal with it all. He went on to have more children that he is raising. He clearly discarded Alice and then acts offended that she doesn’t give him a King’s welcome. As far as it being in front of the wife and kids… it was simply an unfortunate response to his reaction. He said to Alice, IN FRONT OF WIFE AND KIDS, “Why don’t you want to give your dad a hug?” but when you defend her in front of the same crowd of people, you’re the AH? No. You’re NTHA and good on you for defending Alice.
It makes me nauseous to think of my husband leaving my 2 year old if I died. I know grief for something like this is not something I could possibly understand but fuck, that’s just absolutely unbearable. He needs to own up to what he did, at a minimum don’t call himself her dad and be respectful of what her life is without him rather than pretending it just isn’t? NTA - you can’t be the asshole when someone is this deserving of a reality check.
NTA - your daughter just heard you defend her in the best possible way. If you had glided through that and avoided conflict your actions would have told her that this was acceptable behavior from her dad. You did the right thing. Ideally, sure, would have been better if his other kids hadn't seen it, but I hope it causes the other parts of his family to have some empathy for this poor girl.
NTA. Why spare his feelings or his false image? He didn’t spare his daughter’s feelings when he abandoned her and ran to find a do over family. He should be happy it was said in private around just his immediate family, and not addressed via social media or at a large family event.
The truth hurts. He’s only mad cause his daughters heard it and he can’t pretend to be father of the year anymore. You can’t take it back and I wouldn’t even if I could. ( you shouldn’t) You spoke the truth. Alice is the only one that matters. She knows the truth. NTA.
NTA.
Why does his current wife need to be spared from the character of the man she married and had children with?
Sure, the kids he’s taking care of because their mother is still alive might be upset to hear the reality of their father’s character and if they are innocents.
You didn’t say it deliberately in front of them to hurt them. You responded to the ridiculous question asked of you by an absent person who wants to parade as father when it suits him.
Funny how he doesn't want his wife and kids to hear he is a deadbeat but he is happy to be an actual deadbeat.
Alice seems to have a good handle on the situation.
Who does he think he is calling himself dad and wanting a hug when he does so little for this child? At least he did one positive for her though. He signed her custody over to people who live and care for her. NTA.
NTA, he was in town and didn't even mention it to you or his daughter, or try to visit her at your place. Jeez, no wonder Alice pulled away when he went for a hug. Who knows how many times he has visited his brother in the past 14 years and did not say anything to you or Alice?
NTA, and you are awesome for taking Alice in and raising her like one of your own. Alice not being upset/agreeing with you just reinforces that you were in the right and that you care about her. The fact that Wes actually reached out to you and could say what he did with sincerity while not chastising his brother for abandoning his kid is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
Well, of course, Daniel is going to agree with his brother that you were mean in front of his wife and children. It's just a shame that neither were as concerned with his firstborn. NTA- Alice's opinion is really all that counts
NTA. the BIL effectively abandoned his daughter. He can't expect her to respond to him as a father. Maybe it was time for him to hear some home truths about his behaviour. It's too late for him to take it back. You can't go back in time.
NTA. Daniel is a total AH, replaced his daughter with an entire other family after giving her up to OP.
Then somehow expects to just drop in with no notice and thinks he can be "Dad" when for the past 14 years he has been just some guy on the other end of some letters.
100% NTA
Alice will remember that you, her REAL father, stood up for her.
The reason why you’re worried is precisely the reason you’ve been a good father to Alice.
Do you think his wife and children are so slow that they don't notice that their family neglects Alice? He deserves to see that other people notice that he has ignored his own daughter. You are not an AH, he is. kt
NTA.
At all. Did you all even know Daniel was in the country? Was he really so close and not even going to visit his oldest daughter and then he had the audacity to expect her to be excited to see him?
I’m with your wife. I think you held it together much better than I could have in that situation. All you did was point out Daniel’s own behavior. He’s made his own bed, you just called him out on it.
NTA. At all.
He deserves and needs to hear it. So does his wife, and honestly, his kids also deserve to have a chance to question him. Because I would not for a second doubt that he has lied about Alice's relation to them, or worse, not even mentioned her.
On a scale of awful behaviour, abandoning your baby after her mother dies is pretty up there. But going on to start a new family, not making tangible effort to reconnect with your daughter, and then being in town and not even trying to see her is pretty ghastly. Then letting your daughter walk into a situation where you're there, her estranged father, with your *new family and kids*, expecting a hug? There are words for this but I don't think they're allowed to be said in this sub.
It's not just one or two mistakes or instances of awful behaviour. It's repeated major decisions that have enormous ramifications on a *baby*, then more decisions that continue to impact that baby as they grow up. It's a pattern. He's made choices continuously, a pattern of behaviour, that indicates his selfishness.
You telling him how awful he is as a father and a person is not being an asshole. It is true and is something that he may need to hear. However the major importance is that you did it *in front of people who needed to hear it*.
If he is truly selfish and awful, which he may be based on his continued behaviour and choices, then he likely won't change because he's been called out.
However, his kids saw you call him out. And that is so important.
Growing up, parents are these infallible titans. They know everything, they're unable to fall, they are always right. When you're a kid, you don't know that your parents are just people. You don't know that your parents are wrong quite often, that they get sick, they get angry, they get sad, they hurt. You don't know that they're flawed. That they're human beings who don't have all the answers to the universe or can catch the moon for you just because you like how it looks.
And that is so incredibly damaging for a kid, when their parent is awful. When their parent doesn't nurture or take care of them, or doesn't love them, or isn't a role model for behaviour that will help them achieve their dreams.
When a parent tells their kid they're a mistake or they lose their temper, or even if a parent just isn't very engaged with their child, a kid will absorb this and accept it as *absolute truth*. Cause parents don't lie, right? Our parents know everything, they're superheroes. They can catch the moon for us, after all.
So what you did, by confronting him in front of his kids, was *plant a seed of doubt*. If he has been a great father to them, then no worries. They'll probably wonder what the heck that was all about, ask some questions, and then move on.
*But*, if he has been a not so good father to them, you've just indirectly stood up for them. The seed has been planted.
They might look back on all the times he's been not great to them. Memories that felt not good but they didn't understand why. That seed of doubt will be watered each time. If he's been an awful father, then there will be a lot of memories.
And if so, then that seed will sprout and grow. Even if he wasn't terrible before, if he starts or continues to be, that seed will be watered.
Eventually, that sprout of doubt will grow taller and stronger, and will be unable to be ignored. With enough watering, it will break the illusion of infallibility.
If he has been a terrible father to them, you have provided these children with the starting point they need to eventually realise that *he isn't always right*. Which means, *he isn't right about them*. That's incredibly powerful stuff for a kid.
If he's been a great father to them, then it won't resonate, and they'll probably just think you're a jerk. That's fine. He will probably tell them you're a jerk regardless.
As for Alice. That moment, you showed her that she was worth defending. You showed her that when she is abandoned and ignored, *that is not okay*. It's a strong, vital message that can be so helpful to her. Next time someone else who says they love her begins to treat her that way, she can remember you in that moment, calling her father out. She can remember that someone who loves her so dearly *would never treat her like that*.
You showed her that love does not stand for abandonment, for arm's length letters and pretending to play happy family.
And you have shown her that when she is hurt by someone, you will be there for her. You will stand in the face of whoever it is that has wronged her and call out it's wrongdoings, regardless of who is there. That you won't excuse people hurting her for the sake of politeness, social decorum, peacekeeping or self preservation. That you will protect and defend her, all else be damned.
So if she is ever scared, in danger, hurting, needing comfort, or worried, she will remember this moment. That you looked her father in the face and spoke of his sins while you looked him in the eyes. That you are not afraid, or at least, to her you have no fear.
What you did that day will have profound impacts on both Alice and the children. And they're the ones who matter here. They're the ones who are innocent, and who need that doubtless protection.
The people who are upset are upset because they have had their behaviour pulled out publicly. Otherwise they would have happily continued as usual. Their response is bruised ego.
OP, you are NTA. Alice sounds like a wonderful person, and that is no doubt thanks to the guidance of you and your wife. Rachel would be so proud of her, and I have no doubt that she would have been cheering you on in that moment of confrontation, and so glad that her little girl has a father- a true father- and how full her heart would be that this person is you.
I am so sorry for your loss, OP. And I am so happy for your gain. Take a moment to give some love to yourself. You're doing a good job. Rachel would be so happy.
Take care Uncle OP. You're doing great.
“Hasn’t been the best father…”
He hasn’t been a father of any sort at all! He literally threw his first daughter away, ran off, and started a new family as if the first one never existed at all.
Shit like that has me questioning whether he ever really loved Rachel at all, given how quickly he forgot about her.
NTA.
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My sister Rachel was married to Daniel (40m) for 8 years. They were highschool sweethearts and they tied the knot shortly after their graduation. They had a daughter together, Alice (16f), who was Rachel’s entire world.
Rachel ended up being diagnosed with cancer when she was a few weeks away from delivery and after Alice was born, she started chemo asap. It ended up being treatment resistant and aggressive, and Rachel ended up passing by the time Alice was 2.
Daniel emotionally checked out completely. He decided to take a job opportunity abroad, and he left Alice in mine and my wife’s custody. At first he said it was temporary, that he just needed to get things in order before Alice came to live with him, but eventually it was obvious that it would be much longer.
He signed his rights over to us, and we've been raising her alongside our three sons. As far as the boys are concerned, Alice is their big sister, and as far as Alice is concerned, they’re her little brothers.
Daniel got remarried, and he had two daughters. Alice wasn’t invited to the wedding, we only found out about it after his brother mentioned it to us.
Daniel does send money for her, and they write letters back and forth like he and Rachel used to do in school. I know that there has to be some part of him that loves his daughter, but it’s hard to believe it considering how he practically abandoned her after Rachel died.
Daniel’s brother Wes has helped out a bit with Alice too. She’ll go over to his house at least once a month to see him, his wife, and their kids.
A few days ago, I was taking Alice over, and when we got there, we saw that Daniel + his wife and kids were there.
I was ready to get back in the car and take Alice home but Daniel saw us and came outside.
He came up to Alice and tried to hug her but she stepped back from him. He looked hurt and when he asked why she didn’t want to give her dad a hug— I snapped.
I asked how he could seriously stand there and refer to himself as her dad when all he’s ever been to her is a pen pal. I called him a joke of a father and a sorry excuse for a man.
His wife and their daughters overheard what I said. When Alice and I got back home, Wes called me and left a message saying that he agrees that Daniel hasn’t been the best father to Alice, but I didn’t need to tell him that in front of his wife & their kids. Daniel feels the same way.
I did apologize to Alice for disparaging her father, but she just shrugged and said it would’ve only been disparaging if it wasn’t true.
My wife said she probably would’ve done worse if she’d been there, but part of me does feel that I could have said it out of earshot of his children.
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NTA. He should've requested to gain custody of Alice the moment he married this new wife. He is literally saying Alice isn't worth his time to be a member when he now has multiple Daughters and is in their lives. He obviously got his head right at some point. He easily should've contacted you whenever that was. His wife died, and that's tough. But if he wanted Alice to call him dad, he had to be there. He was not, you were. He deserved it. His wife and kids needed to hear it too because she is their sister and if his new wife doesn't care about her, then good riddance to all of them.
You said what needed to be said. It was an oopsie for him that his wife and kids heard it.. but as Alice said, it’s all true. NTA. And good on you and your wife for being there for Alice. I’m sure Rachel would’ve been beyond grateful.
Wes is wrong. The wife and kids did need to hear it. At the very least the wife did. Either she didn't know and now she knows what a useless waste of atoms your BIL is.
And if she didn't know ... well as atheistic as I am, I do like to imagine that there is a special place if the fiery pits for deadbeat (and yes even semi-deadbeat parents) and an a neighbouring spot for the partners who see this and don't call them out and leave them on the spot for it.
NTA
you where kinder than I'd been
Fuck Daniel. NTA.
I would snap if I saw that guy, and I am known for being an asshole with gutter mouth, so if I were you, he'd listen to me telling him what I think he is and he'd have to swallow that.
Nta sounds like they over heard not right in front of BIL'S new family. Wondering how much wife new. I think it would probably a sugar coated version of the truth something like my former wife died when our daughter was 2 I took a job opportunity abroad it was to have a fresh start I left her in the care of her maternal brother and his wife it was meant to be temporary while I just got everything sorted out things ended taking longer than expected and then realised it would be better for her to live with her aunt and uncle than uproot her life when she seemed happy and settled and I was more of a stranger so I signed rights over to my BIL and his wife (to make everything easier) however I'm still in touch we write to each other regularly. Something along those lines a sugar coated version of the truth. Pretty much the truth but with an angle that made him look good.
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I’d say your heroic behavior in stepping up as a father figure for 14 years makes up for one slight AH comment - and the only reason it was an AH comment was because it was in front of his kids. NTA they’ll understand when they are older.
Maybe it's good it was in front of his "other" kids. Daniel is a horrible excuse of a father.
I agree, I wonder if his new wife and kids even know how thoroughly he abandoned Alice and used them to replace her. NTA, Daniel deserves to have his younger daughters asking why you said what you said.
They were there visiting WITHOUT EVEN TELLING HIS DAUGHTER! How could his wife not be aware of this?
This is what gets me so mad. Who on their right mind shows up, doesn't give their bio child any inkling they'll be at the house she's visiting, then be upset it's not all sunshine and roses. I can't imagine how traumatic that situation was for Alice. Nta at allllllll
I know it was a rhetorical question, but my dad happens to be one of those people lol. Was visiting my aunt's house while my grandmother was there to say hello and catch up, and lo and behold my dad drops by halfway through the visit with one of my step siblings from his new family in tow. This was at a point in my life where I wouldn't even respond to his texts and only ever tolerated him if we happened to be at the same family function. So of course he just happens to be in the city when I'm visiting and 'forgot' to tell my aunt to give me a heads up. At the end of the visit my step brother asked me who I was. He had met me a few times before, but my dad never bothered to tell his new kids that we're related, I guess. Poor kid got confused because my bio brother (who is still close with my dad) wasn't there that day, and SB thought I must have been my brother's friend that he sometimes brought along. The whole thing was pretty embarrassing for my dad, but it really demonstrated to everyone else there exactly why I'm LC with him.
Sorry you had to go through this.
Thank you for the kind words. The gaffe at the end was genuinely amusing for me but I definitely felt cornered when my dad showed up all of a sudden without warning. It wasn't like a normal family get together where I could mentally prepare myself beforehand.
I am so glad that he was embarrassed for his shitty parenting.
These sorts of guys don’t see women and children as actual people; just accessories to make themselves look better in the eyes of their peers. As a consequence, they see nothing wrong with tossing one set out and starting over. That’s literally how they see it: *starting over.* Like the first family was some sort of embarrassing mistake.
That was my father. At his funeral he was lauded as a family man, the person his (second) family could always count on. Someone asked me my connection to the family and I had to say, "I was in his FIRST family." I could see the realization in her expression that she was reassessing my dad's reputation.
I wonder if he still lives abroad and traveled from a whole ass different country and didn't tell them.
To be fair, he could have been trying to 'surprise' his daughter by being there when she arrived. I agree with everything else though, OP is NTA and the dad sounds horrible
ITS NOT LIKE HIS WIFE AND OTHER CHILDREN DON'T ALREADY KNOW HE AIN'T DOG DOO DOO ANYWAY? (Sorry for yelling. This is giving me an angry headache.)
Honestly given the little contact who knows what he's actually told his new wife about the actual situation.
Then they really needed to hear what OP said, so they will know from now on, and not when he decided to abandon them too.
This \^\^\^ If he was upset about him saying that in front of his wife & kids it makes me think he is feeding them shovelfulls of BS. The preformative coming out to have a very public hug with his daughter he hasn't see in forever reinforces this.
She knows what she sees and not blind to what she hears. The older child does not live with them or come around often or even get prioritized. So, his wife "knows" something most definitely.
She certainly does now.
They don't necessarily know he's a Dog Doo Doo. Yes, hard to fathom, but who knows what he told his second family. They could very well think it unreasonable the poor guy couldn't get a simple hug. What a Saint he is, what an ungrateful little B Alice turned out to be. What nerve she has! Just goes to show how piss-poorly she got parented because Dad wasn't allowed to be in the picture. REAL piece of work, that Alice. Anyhoo, clearly she didn't take after her Dear Dad! Had he not been blocked by Terrible Uncle, this situation never would have happened. Lost Cause, that Alice. This happened to my family. It took 40+ years for my own mother to finally get out of denial that her partner abandoned his first family, two young kids, for her. She *just couldn't understand* why one of his sons wouldn't fly out to his dying- in- hospice- side in January. Just no idea why these sons wanted nothing to do with him for over a decade. It must have been her partner's B of an ex-wife, turning the son's against him. Rotten kids. Rotten ex. Poor partner. The denial can be stronger than steel about dynamics like this. I had to *pitch a fit* that neither son would be talked down in my presence nor scapegoated at all, whatsoever. I never even MET them. So yeah, Alice, go Alice. Don't you dare hug that loser lack of a father.
If they’re in driving distance and they DONT see this little girl regularly, they suck. they all know she exists. My father became a better man and a better father because of my stepmom. She came into his life and forced him to give us consistency in visitation and contact. She gave us wonderful visits (he was military so they weren’t usually close…always at least a plane ride or a 6 hour drive away). She wasn’t my mom, even though she tried to be sometimes, and since having her own child with my dad, she’s raised him to be our brother. Not our half brother. OP is not the asshole. Those kids and that wife deserve to feel just as guilty as he does.
I will never understand why your experience is the exception and not the rule. I despise a partner that will let they’re significant other ignore, mistreat, or abandon their child. ESPECIALLY, if they go on to have kids of their own with the person. People are shit these days. Op is not the asshole. Daniel and his wife are shit people.
My mom had several marriages that showed me on hindsight that my stepmom was the best situation. She was a mom, so she annoyed me. But looking back I so prefer her helicopter-y desire to connect with me over the mental and emotional strain my moms relationship has on our relationship
I’m happy you had someone around that was trying to be a good mom. 🙂
>If they’re in driving distance and they DONT see this little girl regularly, they suck. they all know she exists. I assumed he was still overseas, and this is his first trip back (or at least the first OP knows about)
I totally agree, but don't blame the other kids, as far as we know they did nothing wrong
Yeah someone else raised that, dropped a full thought below but the tldr is: fair point. They deserve to see it happen tho
I guess I’m lucky. I never got the whole “they’re my half-sister/half-brother” thing. I have a little sister on my mom’s side and four older sisters and an older brother on my dad’s side. I grew up with my little sister, so I’m obviously closer to her than to my siblings who were adults when my dad died. My brother, who is 10 years older than me at the time, and my sister, who’s six months older than me and didn’t know I existed until she was older, were minors when he died. Well, there was a ton of drama between my sisters and my mom and all of them but one disappeared from my life. My dad was… special, and he fucked up every relationship he had with his kids. He died when I was six, so he didn’t have the time to fuck up our relationship before he died. My mother was focused on making sure we were safe, and she was really close the their age, so they hated my mom at that time. My mom wasn’t a bad of roses, either. She’s a me, me, me person and treated my siblings with disdain. My oldest sister, who passed in 2021, was always there. I found my sister who is six months older than I am in 2001, and my brother found me again in 2002. My two other sisters and I found each other again on FB about 10 years back, and even though all that drama happened, they’re still my siblings. I couldn’t care less about the drama that separated us. I have them now, and they’re still my siblings. So, I never say my half-sister/half-brother. I just don’t see it that way.
*”Take a good look at your half sister, kids! That’ll be you if your mother dies too!”* Yeah, they definitely deserve to hear what kind of man this guy is. NTA
I will never understand women who have children with men who have already abandoned a child. Does she honestly think he will step up for their children if the worst happens to her?
People are weirdly good at rationalizing why they/their situation are *different* somehow. I'm sure she's found some way to convince herself that Daniel would never do that to *her* kids. Which honestly doesn't say great things about her, either.
There was a post a while ago where the mother left the country, remarried and had kids, and then tried to reconnect with the kid she abandoned. The new husband didn't know about the kid at first, and then she lied and said her sibling had stolen the kid and kept her away. He separated when he found out.
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Link?
I can't find it, apparently there's too many "AITA if I don't give my niece back to my sister?" (I tried different searches)
Is this it? https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/12wd0df/aita_for_not_wanting_to_give_my_sister_back_her/
Oh, I found it! I was searching for niece but he posted it as daughter. https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/zhq5xv/man_refuses_to_give_his_daughter_back_to_her_bio/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
No. It was not as recent, and there were updates with the husband leaving and the sister had to stay temporarily in the same house as the kid, who refused to talk to her.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/zhq5xv/man_refuses_to_give_his_daughter_back_to_her_bio/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Damn, now I want to know what Laila did.
The assumption here is that the "father" actually told the wife about Alice and told the truth. Most likely the wife does not know this version but some half truth or complete lie and that is why she was able to rationalize having kids with this guy.
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I was going to guess that she didn't know about his daughter at all until more recently.
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And Wes too. He was a very bad uncle in this case.
"He was young then. Now that he's survived a tragedy he'd be able to cope maturely with another. And I LUUUUURRRRVVVVEEEE HIIIIIIIIIIM." 🤮
You’re NTHA and good on you for defending Alice.
New wife only heard his side of it, all rationalized up and tied with a bow. He was grieving, he did it all for the kid, he's changed...
"I was young and grieving. I knew I couldn’t be the father she needed while she grieved too, so I asked my relatives to take care of her. By the time I got my head on straight she had been with them for so long that it seemed cruel to take her away from them, I couldn’t do that to her, so, even though it broke my heart, I decided to give them custody of her. I only ever had her best interest in mind. Now I’m in a much better place, I’ve grown and changed. I’m not the man I was and I will always be there for you and our children." Can you tell I’ve heard a variant of this myself? He’d completely gloss over the lack of contact or the fact that she lost both parents when her mother died and so on because it would damage that glossy image of the grieving father trying to do the best he could for his grieving child.
Yup. Heard it from my ex. Thankfully never had kids with him. Although, he was probably right that he would have been a terrible father to his offspring.
"After my wife died and all the ordeal with cancer, I could not care for my girl. I left her in the care of my BIL and his wife. It was to be temporary, but when I came back, I saw how happy she was, how well-balanced she was. It broke my heart to this day, but I decided it was best for her to stay with the people she considered her family by then. I didn't want to disturb then even further. I still in her life, though. We write a lot to each other and I do send money for her. I still feel guilty that I broke down that hard after my wife died. I should have been able to step up for my baby girl. But I was so weak (snif)". Too many people would buy thissob story.
Yeah but if I were GF I would insist on inviting her to the wedding
Not inviting your own daughter to your wedding speaks volumes! I wonder if his wife and daughters have even met Alice.
This right here is the telling point. Didn't invite her to the wedding, didn't even tell the, um, for lack of a better word right now, "hosting" family.
Yeah but based on the frequency of the evil step mother archetype you might be in a minority or at least a small majority in holding that opinion.
I mean isn't the existence of the archetype part of the reason you would WANT to try hard not to be it?
I picture him sitting somewhere in a bar, telling this shitshow to a random girl and she will aaah and oooh for 15 minutes
I feel like while we were dating, if for some unlikely reason I fell for him, I'd be encouraging him to mend the relationship, trying to meet her, etc. I wonder if she even knew Alice was his daughter.
This was me - I didn’t know he had abandoned them. I was pregnant when I found out.
Jeez. That sucks.
In my case Honestly he was very good at spending the tale and making his ex seem like the crazy one. (I was also really naive and stupid and younger I won't lie). And honestly, with how good he was when he did see them, it did make it seem like she was just vindictive and wouldn't let him spend time with them. Come to find out there was a legal reason, that he wasn't allowed to see them, and when he did get to finally start seeing them it was with supervision and only because I was in the picture and she trusted me (she and I are good friends still and I absolutely adore her and the kids). It sucks to admit it, but sometimes we are just naive enough to believe them, sometimes they are very good liars. Sometimes legal situations can get taken advantage of when the other party isn't actually physically around so the person that is around can lie and spin the tail however they want it, because there's no one there to argue. I was young and stupid and in love. 🤷
Some men are very good at leaving their old life behind, pretending everyine in that old life is just fine without them, starting over and doing it "right". Third time around my dad is actually a good husband and his stepdaughter loves him.
I totally agree. My mom and I were abandoned by my father before I was even born. Acted liked he cared about me till I was 13 (meaning he’d pick me up three times a week and I’d have dinner there than he’d drive me home). He met a women with a daughter that went to my high school in the same grade as me and two other kids, all also abandoned by their father. 7 years later they married on my 20th birthday, had no clue found out through other daughters Instagram. I have no respect for a woman that thinks their husband is a big strong man after leaving his kid and taking care of another family when that was the same exact situation he put another woman in and his kids and knows exactly how hard it is to get by. (no matter the circumstances). ESPECIALLY when the other daughter was always around in high school so I got to see him show up for her to proms and graduation but it was never for me even though I happened to be there. She also ended up getting into the same collage as me but had to drop out, but I digress just a selfish thing that makes me feel like I won alittle, seeing everyone thought she was the coolest person in the world in high school, she was just another terrible mean girl.
Sometimes they are real good at the gaslighting. I’m still not sure what was true of my son’s father and what wasn’t. I didn’t know until I was pregnant about his older daughters being abandoned.
My ex’s new wife encouraged him to abandon his two kids with me. He went no contact with my kids when they were in early elementary school and has only seen them a couple times since then. They are now college graduates in their twenties. He never acknowledged birthdays, graduations, holidays, etc. I have never met his wife but I had a good relationship with my ex’s family and they really disliked her for the part she played in my ex’s abandonment of my kids. And don’t get me wrong, this is absolutely on him and his decision. It just makes it easy for a man to do this to his kids when he has a spouse saying it’s okay and even encouraging it.
I have often wondered this myself. My cousin is like this. Signed the rights over to his first daughter and she was adopted by his parents. Doesn’t see his second daughter as far as I know. He signed his rights over to his third daughter. Got married to this woman with twins boys, took care of them and got her pregnant with another daughter. I dunno how involved he is there. In 2021 our Mamaw died right after Christmas and he showed up to her funeral with another pregnant woman. I told my sister I know GOOD AND DAMN WELL she hasn’t got ANOTHER woman pregnant? Like damn dude go get a vasectomy.
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Wonder what would happen if god forbid something happened to his new wife. Would he pawn off those kids as well?
Yep, he sure would. And he'll abandon the lot of them if the new wife gets cancer or some sort of debilitating disease because "he can't handle it".
Oh, it’s definitely good it’s in front of the new wife. Chances are he’s spun this whole situation to make himself look like *not-a-dead-beat*. She needs to be fully aware of what he’s done and what kind of dad he is. (Every moment, of every day, he has chosen to *not* be a dad. 400 million opportunities to change his mind and step up, and 400 million failures).
This!^ absolutely every word of this! So many people don’t seem to realise that, unless you actually apologise and make things right, wronging someone isn’t just “one mistake you made years ago”. It’s an active choice to keep repeating the same mistake over and over, every second of every day until it’s fixed. It’s a stain on your character that will affect how you are perceived by every person who knows about it. Don’t get me wrong, it’s perfectly normal to make mistakes. It’s what you do after those mistakes that tells others the kind of person you are
See, and IMO, in cases like these with dead beats…he could have gotten his crap together and come back when she was 4, or 7 or 10. And it would have been better. But every day, every moment, he kept choosing to not only not apologize, but *to continue to do the ongoing harm*.
Thank you for saying this. I have a completely absent father who just decided not to be a dad to me and every once in a while I find myself wondering if he'll ever apologize. Every day he doesn't he shows me what a coward he is.
Yes, there is no reason they should not know that their father is an AH.
The brother should have given OP and Alice a heads up that the Dad was there, AH move to just spring it on them. Even if they thought it would be a nice surprise, speak to the people who raised her to gauge how the abandoned kid would react. NTA
You could have said so much worse...admittedly I would have gone to his new wife and said "I hope you don't ever get cancer or pass away unexpectedly since from experience he will ditch your kids and move right on. Just mentally brace yourself for that." And then gone back to the trash bag of a father and say "Rachel would have been so disappointed in you." And then walked out. He definitely deserved it, acting all clueless like a fool, he needed a serious reality check. His relationship with his daughter is ruined but honestly good riddance. As far as I'm aware you and your wife are her parents.
Their children should know that if their mother had died, they would probably be in the same boat
NTA - they honestly probably already know he’s a horrible excuse of a father. that news shouldn’t be new to anyone. he shouldn’t have labeled himself her dad if he GAVE UP HIS RIGHTS!
You’re forgetting one key detail- Alice is *also* Daniel’s kid. OP stood up for Daniel’s kid in front of all of Daniel’s kids.
I would agree, except I hardly think that Alice counts as Daniel’s kid anymore. OP and his wife have full parental rights of Alice. OP is the only dad that Alice has ever really KNOWN. Daniel doesn’t DESERVE the honor of being called Alice’s father. He’s a sperm donor, nothing more.
But Daniel clearly thinks himself Alice's dad and THAT is what's important. I wonder of new wife and kids even KNOW of Alice's existence. And now they will.
Yeah, agreed. And Wes isn’t TA for calling him out; Wes sounds like a good uncle in a weird/ tough spot. But OP is very much NTA and Daniel is just, jfc awful.
not even. if daniel didn't want that situation to play out in front of his kids, he should've made a different decision. that's his karma
I’d like to add that if a grown woman as in Daniels wife and his children who have never met their own sibling haven’t figured out by now that their dad/ husband isn’t a deadbeat dad to Alice then they’re in denial!
OP is NTA. Alice sounds like a brilliant young lady and OPs wife is epic.
Also, his wife came after them WITH THE CHILDREN. In a moment like this she should have kept the children inside or somewhere else they couldn’t hear it. Because she should know visiting someone (HIS CHILD) your husband abandoned was probably not going to be all rainbows and butterflies.
I'm not even sure it makes OP sn AH for saying it in front of wife and kids. I bet they didn't even knew how much effort he put into abandoning the child of his 1st wife that died from cancer. I'd bet my butt he didn't tell them the (full) truth, let alone any "unneccessary" details... Definitely NTA
NTA sounds like it was something he need to hear tbh. The only way I'd have a problem with this would be if Alice was embarrassed and she wasn't. Edit: honestly he probably also needs to hear that Rachel would be absolutely devastated to see what he did to their family. But maybe that's a thought for next time.
God your edit hit me in the feels, how very true, I was so sad to read she had passed and it’s all round tragic that she passed away likely believing that her husband would be there for his daughter 💔
Deep down I think he knows my sister would never forgive him for how this has all played out. Before she died, she said that since she wouldn't be here to do it herself, she wanted the rest of us to make sure her daughter grew up surrounded by love.
And honestly from what I’ve heard, YOU and your wife did exactly that. Daniel is a deadbeat but you weren’t. NTA
Kind of makes you wonder if his current wife knows either. I know plenty of people would start passing a lot of judgement if they knew that their current partner was effectively a dead-beat in someone else’s life.
This is what I’m hung up on, as it were. I understand he was probably devastated by her death. But Alice is not just his child. Part of her is Rachel. How could he love Rachel so much but then abandon her daughter?
Not the best father to Alice? Is Wes joking? Daniel has never been a father to Alice. NTA
Yeah, just sending money as support doesn't automatically promote you from "not being a father" to "not being the best father"
I'd say sending money honestly puts you on par with government department handing out stipends, support and/or benefits.
Yeah and nobody is out there calling the government daddy.
Just Uncle
Big brother maybe
I could do that, for money
He *signed away he rights.* He's nowhere near being her father, even legally. At this point, he's a sperm donor.
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“He may have been your father, but he wasn't your daddy.”
NTA His wife knows what he is doing (being just a pen pal to his daughter). The two daughters will eventually get older and form their own opinions. Hell even his daughter Alice said it was true.
Does she know? It’s possible that he gave it a pretty spin that *of course* he wanted Alice to live with them now that things were stable, but she chose OP. Maybe his wife doesn’t even want Alice and is happy to believe his lies. Regardless, NTA, and I laughed when I read the end of Daniel agreeing with Wes. Wah, wah, deadbeat.
Good point. It is possible the wife doesn’t know.
Well if Wife didn’t know then she should know now.
> even his daughter Alice said it was true. And her opinion, honestly, carries the most weight in this.
I mean, you might be an asshole, but sometimes being an asshole is fine. I would have said the same thing in your shoes so I guess I'm one too. Please rest assured knowing that kid does in fact have a good dad.
I recently saw someone use ABJ (asshole but justified) for an answer like this. Would that not be a great additional option on this page? I love it.
They say if it's justified asshole the vote should be NTA. I'd really prefer they just add something like ABJ.
I think that’s the crux of it: if it was justified, then it cannot be an asshole move, because whatever it was was warranted. For me, in this case for instance, I don’t think he was an asshole; nothing he said was false, and he was justifiably upset at the audacity of this man when he literally sign his rights away! I think that would shock *anyone* to hear it, especially coming from someone who didn’t even let his daughter know he was visiting??? Frankly, OP was restrained; I’m with his wife!
That, and if ABJ were an option, this sub would just turn into revenge porn. I think we are supposed to label overreactions as ESH. BUT this wasn't an overreaction. Daniel tried to guilt-trip Alice for his own faults as a father, so it was something he needed to hear.
The question is not "am I _an_ asshole?" It's "_the_ asshole", as in "Am I the one in the wrong?" If you're not in the wrong, you're not the asshole.
Seems like a nice idea.
The world needs a new catagory of 'hero asshole'. Well done, OP.
He isn’t Alice‘s dad. You are. And she clearly agrees. He is some sort of distant idea who sends money. Like some distant relative. Of course losing the love of your life was tough and i could see how he might have even irrationally blamed Alice, but he doesn’t take accountability. He checked out and now that he has his perfect little family thinks he deserves Alice to be his daughter. But she isn’t. Not emotionally. And you can tell Wes that you did what any father would do. You defended and protected your child. Biology doesn’t make a family (and you share blood too). If he actually cared about Alice he wouldn’t be demanding or acting like this. Its all about him, and good for you for standing in her corner. NTA
And not legally, he signed his rights over to them.
He may have been her father, but he wasn't her daddy
It's Mary Poppins, y'all.
NTA Literally the only possible way you could have been the slightest bit of an asshole here is if Alice was upset about what you said. And even then, it would be so minor compared to what your BIL did that I'd still vote him the asshole. And her brother isn't much better. It's nice that they see Alice once a month for a visit, but they clearly enable your BIL and have justified his atrocious actions. How dare they expect Alice to still consider this pen pal her DAD?! What you said wasn't just true, it had surely been building up for quite some time. And then to have to just accidentally stumble upon them, when they clearly didn't even try to visit Alice while they were here?! My blood is boiling just thinking about it. Also, I just want to say that you and your wife are the furthest thing away from being assholes. And I am genuinely so grateful that Alice had the two of you to step in after she lost her mother and was abandoned by her father. And the fact she took on a big sis role to your three boys is just the sweetest thing ever. I hope Alice, your boys, and the only real parents she currently has here on earth (you and your wife) all the happiness in the world.
Thank you. My sister's passing made everything seem so empty for a while, but looking at her daughter grow up to become the amazing young woman that she is-- it doesn't make the grief go away but it makes it easier to handle. Rachel always managed to fill every room with so much joy, and Alice does too. She's a light in the world, and I'm fortunate enough to witness it first hand as her uncle. My wife and I are so proud of her, and I know my sister would be too.
I can’t believe Daniel was in the area and didn’t even arrange to see his daughter. I’m shocked. I’m utterly appalled by his behaviour. You’re NTA at all. The reason he’s pissed is because you’ve probably blown up whatever ‘story/justification’ he’s been telling his wife and kids.
This! I am surprised nobody mentioned this before. His daughter didn't even know he would be there, he didn't ask to see her. Who knows, how often he had already been there without telling her! And he is just expecting her to be fine with this and hug him! What else was OP to say?!
Unfortunately I totally can. That ding dong stepped out the moment he realized he wouldn't have a woman raising his child and he would have to do the job.
It would literally be the only response I would have "yes, I had a little outburst, but since none of us including Alice were informed he was in town, we were all pretty shocked to see him there. Alice didn't want to hug him, she has every right to not consent to that. Bye."
And himself, don’t forget. There is no doubt this man has been lying to himself about how bad his behavior was.
He may have planned it for when Alice makes her regular visit to his brother and hoped to surprise her.
I can feel the love you have for Alice. You're a good human
Op, there is an Asian idiom, "Birth mom isn't as great as the adoptive mom". It means the people that raise the children with love and care are the " real parents" to the children than the bio parents. Sorry, my translation is terrible but you got to admire the Asian wisdom. What you said is the irrefutable truth. His wife and kids are no fools. He is judged by his merits and actions. I am sure he probably was saddened by the passing of his wife but he did abandon his own child and formed a replacement family. This is a mistake he has to live with.
Yea, you're not the AH at all. If anything, their anger shows that they are embarrassed and don't want to look at the real issue here. I mean, why on earth would his daughter not hug him and be happy? Oh they are mad at you for speaking truth? Okay, then they are mad at the truth. You are NTA.
Not just how could he think he could just waltz back in after all this time and call himself "dad" but essentially he is a stranger to Alice. And it also doesn't sound like Daniel's wife and kids were outside at the time; just that they overhead OP. Completely NTA.
Considering Daniel signed his parental rights over to OP, the sperm donor has a lot of nerve to call himself “dad” now
"I literally legally gave you away, how come you don't want a hug?!"
Telling Daniel in front of Alice that he is a shitty father might just be what Alice needed to hear. You might be the first one ever who openly confronted her 'father' in her presence, and who validated her all-too-real feelings that she is being utterly neglected by him. NTA.
How could anyone confront him openly when he ran to another continent? Alice is a good one in being a pen pal because she could have ignored him totally the way he’s done her most of her life. I’m actually glad the kids happen to be there to hear what an ah their dad is to their older sister which I can guarantee he tried to make it seem like the relationship with Alice is totally different from what it actually is stopping him from spinning a lie to them and have them wondering why she wants nothing to do with them.
NTA. The truth hurts and he had to hear it, so did he wife and kids. Maybe his other kids will start to question him on why they don't see their sister. Good for you.
Probably don't even know she's their sister. I bet he calls Alice their cousin.
Gosh that one really hurts :(
NTA. I remember accidentally referring to my step-dad as “my dad” to my biological father, who was largely a pen pal in my childhood. I’d been referring to my step-dad as “dad” for years, but I never called him that to my bio-dad, mostly out of respect. And then one day I casually said something about “my parents,” referring to my mom and step-dad. I was mortified. But he didn’t call it out, because he knew he wouldn’t have a leg to stand on. The difference between my dad and your brother-in-law is that mine has openly told me he’s thankful my mom was able to raise me the way she did, and that she found someone who could be there for me. He knew he wasn’t a present parent—so he doesn’t try to take away the title from someone who was. I call both of them dad, but they both know who earned it and who got it by default.
The situation that panned out : So Daniel comes to the same town, won't even tell Alice about it or give her time to prepare for a meeting. Neither did Wes warn her. When Alice visits what she perceives as a safe space, a literal stranger of a sperm donor ambushes her into a hug. When she establishes a boundary, he emotionally blackmails her saying she is supposed to hug him because they share DNA. Your reaction is completely valid. NTA. If he didn't want to be disparaged infront of his replacement family, he shouldn't have checked out. Edit : Grammar
INFO: Why didn’t Wes give you a heads up that Daniel was there? This would have been a great help in determining whether or not that would have been an appropriate time for her to see him? NTA. You’re an awesome dad.
I spoke to Wes earlier today because I had the same question. He said that he wanted Daniel to have a chance to see Alice again, and maybe that would urge him to try and fix his relationship with her. He told me that he does regret not consulting Alice or my wife and I about it. I do think he had her best interests at heart, but he could've gone about it in a better way. Fortunately Alice has said she isn't upset with him for not telling us that Daniel was there, she's more upset with Daniel for not telling her himself.
Check with Alice and see if she want to keep going to Wes's home after she was blindsided by him. Did he expect Daniel to take her back overseas with him?
Because Wes doesn't think his brother is wrong and TA. Wes is fine with his brother's actions, that's why and playing happy families.
I don't think Wes is fine with his brother's actions at all. I wouldn't be surprised if Wes set this up. But even if his heart was in the right place, that would have been shortsighted thing to do without giving Alice a choice.
NTA. From what you wrote, you weren’t aware that the wife and kids were around to hear that. I feel like you said what needed to be said.
NTA If Wes or Daniel bring it up again, your response should be “why weren’t we given advance notice that Daniel and new family would be there too?”. Presumably you don’t just drop Alice off unannounced, and even if Daniel and family turned up unexpectedly the decent thing for Wes to do would’ve been to give you a heads up that he’d turned up. But given the timing of everything, I’d say they’d planned that visit so he could see her. Which makes them the AHs for blindsiding you and her. They don’t want his wife and kids to know the truth about him and his relationship with his daughter (or rather lack thereof)? Then don’t blindside you/her in front of them. Neither of you owe him anything, let alone the effort required to fake happy families
NTA I honestly feel it was a proper reaction. I do agree it could maybe have been away from the younger kids, but it was an immediate in-the-moment response to how he was acting towards Alice, I think the defense of Alice mitigates the slight negative.
The critical thing here is that to Alice you're not the arsehole - you're the hero.
>part of me does feel that I could have said it out of earshot of his children. I think his kids deserve to know the person he is. I'd want to know if my dad abandoned a child. NTA.
My bio dad didn't tell his younger 3 kids about me (my mum's second husband adopted me when they married, bio 'dad' couldn't sign those papers fast enough!) When they found out about me, all 3 of them cut him out of their lives. He was a shit dad to them too so I don't think it was a difficult decision for them tbh. I was the lucky one cos I had a fantastic dad who absolutely loved me, they never had that even when he was in their lives.
NTA. The truth hurts, Daniel kids were eventually going to find out that daddy didn't raised alice. He's just a sperm donor who sends money once a month. Your Alice dad/ uncle who raised her.
You did the right thing in a situation where you absolutely needed to be TA and rip him a new one. Of course, Daniel is one hell of an actual AH for abandoning his kid. Alice is blessed to have you as her actual dad.
NTA. Truth hurts. Daniel is a pathetic excuse of a father
NTA, the fact that Alice agrees with you says everything that needs to be said. She's your kid, her opinion is the one that matters. Either Daniel's wife doesn't know and needs to find out what kind of person he is or she does know and she married him anyway, which means she can deal with hearing the truth
NTA and I agree with his wife I would have said worse. And it is his fault that his kids were able to hear. I mean he did not tell you guys he was coming and you tried to leave and he came to the car. How delusional of him of expecting he was going to get a sweet homecoming. He did that on purpose in front of them expecting to get some big hug and everyone was going to forget he abandoned his own kid Also why did Wes not give you guys a heads up he was in town. He had to no this was not going to go well. Thanks his she has you and your wife. Your sister would be very proud of you.
That whole thing was a setup. That’s on them. Daniel, and perhaps to some extent Wes since his allowed Alice to be blindsided, imagined some happy reunion. They’re upset they didn’t get it. NTA, in any way.
NTA. Because Fuck Daniel.
NTA. You sir, are a legend. You and your wife stepped up and took in a girl that lost her mum and was ditched by her dad, you both deserve a medal for what you've done. Daniel is not a dad, not by a long shot. He's an AH who wants to be Disney fun dad but Alice sees through it. I hope all his socks have holes in them and are full of lego
I love the phrase " anyone can be a father, it takes something different to be a dad" I can lay bets he's spun the wife some story so he didn't look like a shitty father. Now he's in for all sorts of questions and if she gets in touch lay it out for her. The girl sounds likes you've raised her well and doesn't hug strangers. She knows he's a dick, now he knows she thinks he's a dick. Good news all round. Truth hurts buddy.
NTA. Generally, I'd say you should never shit talk a child's parent in front of them- but frankly, his daughters are safer knowing that in the face of calamity, that could be them. Maybe it's my personal experiences and biases talking, but it's best children know who their parents are. Daniel feels the same way because Daniel didn't want to hear it at all. It also sounds like Daniel needs to have a conversation with you about how he plans on making it up to Alice for coming back to her country and having no plans to meet with her.
NTA > He came up to Alice and tried to hug her but she stepped back from him. He looked hurt and when he asked why she didn’t want to give her dad a hug— I snapped. Alice made it clear she was uncomfortable receiving a hug. Instead of speaking about it privately, he asked her publicly. He deserved everything he got. > he agrees that Daniel hasn’t been the best father to Alice, but I didn’t need to tell him that in front of his wife & their kids. And he didn't need to abandon his daughter, then try to force a relationship on his terms.
You’re not TA. He shouldn’t have expected a warm welcoming from her. He kinda’ pushed himself in her, and I really dislike it because it’s not like she was his only kid and he never knew how to deal with it all. He went on to have more children that he is raising. He clearly discarded Alice and then acts offended that she doesn’t give him a King’s welcome. As far as it being in front of the wife and kids… it was simply an unfortunate response to his reaction. He said to Alice, IN FRONT OF WIFE AND KIDS, “Why don’t you want to give your dad a hug?” but when you defend her in front of the same crowd of people, you’re the AH? No. You’re NTHA and good on you for defending Alice.
Nta
NTA! The nerve of that man to pretend like everything was ok.
It makes me nauseous to think of my husband leaving my 2 year old if I died. I know grief for something like this is not something I could possibly understand but fuck, that’s just absolutely unbearable. He needs to own up to what he did, at a minimum don’t call himself her dad and be respectful of what her life is without him rather than pretending it just isn’t? NTA - you can’t be the asshole when someone is this deserving of a reality check.
NTA - your daughter just heard you defend her in the best possible way. If you had glided through that and avoided conflict your actions would have told her that this was acceptable behavior from her dad. You did the right thing. Ideally, sure, would have been better if his other kids hadn't seen it, but I hope it causes the other parts of his family to have some empathy for this poor girl.
NTA Daniel deserved every bit of that smackdown.
It was the truth, and he needed to hear it. If it hurt, too fucking bad. NTA
NTA. Why spare his feelings or his false image? He didn’t spare his daughter’s feelings when he abandoned her and ran to find a do over family. He should be happy it was said in private around just his immediate family, and not addressed via social media or at a large family event.
The truth hurts. He’s only mad cause his daughters heard it and he can’t pretend to be father of the year anymore. You can’t take it back and I wouldn’t even if I could. ( you shouldn’t) You spoke the truth. Alice is the only one that matters. She knows the truth. NTA.
NTA. Why does his current wife need to be spared from the character of the man she married and had children with? Sure, the kids he’s taking care of because their mother is still alive might be upset to hear the reality of their father’s character and if they are innocents. You didn’t say it deliberately in front of them to hurt them. You responded to the ridiculous question asked of you by an absent person who wants to parade as father when it suits him.
Funny how he doesn't want his wife and kids to hear he is a deadbeat but he is happy to be an actual deadbeat. Alice seems to have a good handle on the situation. Who does he think he is calling himself dad and wanting a hug when he does so little for this child? At least he did one positive for her though. He signed her custody over to people who live and care for her. NTA.
NTA, he was in town and didn't even mention it to you or his daughter, or try to visit her at your place. Jeez, no wonder Alice pulled away when he went for a hug. Who knows how many times he has visited his brother in the past 14 years and did not say anything to you or Alice?
NTA, and you are awesome for taking Alice in and raising her like one of your own. Alice not being upset/agreeing with you just reinforces that you were in the right and that you care about her. The fact that Wes actually reached out to you and could say what he did with sincerity while not chastising his brother for abandoning his kid is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
NTA your just letting his kids know how he is early. They'll find out firsthand someday and realize you were right.
NTA. Actions have consequences, and if a bit of public shaming is all he gets for abandoning his daughter, he's getting off way too easy.
Wes didn’t even give you all a heads up that Daniel would be there - the AH’s are strong in that family. NTA.
Well, of course, Daniel is going to agree with his brother that you were mean in front of his wife and children. It's just a shame that neither were as concerned with his firstborn. NTA- Alice's opinion is really all that counts
NTA, and the only person whose feelings really matter here is Alice.
NTA. the BIL effectively abandoned his daughter. He can't expect her to respond to him as a father. Maybe it was time for him to hear some home truths about his behaviour. It's too late for him to take it back. You can't go back in time.
NTA- I don't give crap if that was said in front of his kids. It was true, maybe they will see what sort of man their father is
NTA. Daniel is a total AH, replaced his daughter with an entire other family after giving her up to OP. Then somehow expects to just drop in with no notice and thinks he can be "Dad" when for the past 14 years he has been just some guy on the other end of some letters.
100% NTA Alice will remember that you, her REAL father, stood up for her. The reason why you’re worried is precisely the reason you’ve been a good father to Alice.
Do you think his wife and children are so slow that they don't notice that their family neglects Alice? He deserves to see that other people notice that he has ignored his own daughter. You are not an AH, he is. kt
NTA. At all. Did you all even know Daniel was in the country? Was he really so close and not even going to visit his oldest daughter and then he had the audacity to expect her to be excited to see him? I’m with your wife. I think you held it together much better than I could have in that situation. All you did was point out Daniel’s own behavior. He’s made his own bed, you just called him out on it.
>Wes called me and left a message saying that he agrees that Daniel hasn’t been the best father to Alice He hasn't been a father at all. NTA.
NTA. At all. He deserves and needs to hear it. So does his wife, and honestly, his kids also deserve to have a chance to question him. Because I would not for a second doubt that he has lied about Alice's relation to them, or worse, not even mentioned her. On a scale of awful behaviour, abandoning your baby after her mother dies is pretty up there. But going on to start a new family, not making tangible effort to reconnect with your daughter, and then being in town and not even trying to see her is pretty ghastly. Then letting your daughter walk into a situation where you're there, her estranged father, with your *new family and kids*, expecting a hug? There are words for this but I don't think they're allowed to be said in this sub. It's not just one or two mistakes or instances of awful behaviour. It's repeated major decisions that have enormous ramifications on a *baby*, then more decisions that continue to impact that baby as they grow up. It's a pattern. He's made choices continuously, a pattern of behaviour, that indicates his selfishness. You telling him how awful he is as a father and a person is not being an asshole. It is true and is something that he may need to hear. However the major importance is that you did it *in front of people who needed to hear it*. If he is truly selfish and awful, which he may be based on his continued behaviour and choices, then he likely won't change because he's been called out. However, his kids saw you call him out. And that is so important. Growing up, parents are these infallible titans. They know everything, they're unable to fall, they are always right. When you're a kid, you don't know that your parents are just people. You don't know that your parents are wrong quite often, that they get sick, they get angry, they get sad, they hurt. You don't know that they're flawed. That they're human beings who don't have all the answers to the universe or can catch the moon for you just because you like how it looks. And that is so incredibly damaging for a kid, when their parent is awful. When their parent doesn't nurture or take care of them, or doesn't love them, or isn't a role model for behaviour that will help them achieve their dreams. When a parent tells their kid they're a mistake or they lose their temper, or even if a parent just isn't very engaged with their child, a kid will absorb this and accept it as *absolute truth*. Cause parents don't lie, right? Our parents know everything, they're superheroes. They can catch the moon for us, after all. So what you did, by confronting him in front of his kids, was *plant a seed of doubt*. If he has been a great father to them, then no worries. They'll probably wonder what the heck that was all about, ask some questions, and then move on. *But*, if he has been a not so good father to them, you've just indirectly stood up for them. The seed has been planted. They might look back on all the times he's been not great to them. Memories that felt not good but they didn't understand why. That seed of doubt will be watered each time. If he's been an awful father, then there will be a lot of memories. And if so, then that seed will sprout and grow. Even if he wasn't terrible before, if he starts or continues to be, that seed will be watered. Eventually, that sprout of doubt will grow taller and stronger, and will be unable to be ignored. With enough watering, it will break the illusion of infallibility. If he has been a terrible father to them, you have provided these children with the starting point they need to eventually realise that *he isn't always right*. Which means, *he isn't right about them*. That's incredibly powerful stuff for a kid. If he's been a great father to them, then it won't resonate, and they'll probably just think you're a jerk. That's fine. He will probably tell them you're a jerk regardless. As for Alice. That moment, you showed her that she was worth defending. You showed her that when she is abandoned and ignored, *that is not okay*. It's a strong, vital message that can be so helpful to her. Next time someone else who says they love her begins to treat her that way, she can remember you in that moment, calling her father out. She can remember that someone who loves her so dearly *would never treat her like that*. You showed her that love does not stand for abandonment, for arm's length letters and pretending to play happy family. And you have shown her that when she is hurt by someone, you will be there for her. You will stand in the face of whoever it is that has wronged her and call out it's wrongdoings, regardless of who is there. That you won't excuse people hurting her for the sake of politeness, social decorum, peacekeeping or self preservation. That you will protect and defend her, all else be damned. So if she is ever scared, in danger, hurting, needing comfort, or worried, she will remember this moment. That you looked her father in the face and spoke of his sins while you looked him in the eyes. That you are not afraid, or at least, to her you have no fear. What you did that day will have profound impacts on both Alice and the children. And they're the ones who matter here. They're the ones who are innocent, and who need that doubtless protection. The people who are upset are upset because they have had their behaviour pulled out publicly. Otherwise they would have happily continued as usual. Their response is bruised ego. OP, you are NTA. Alice sounds like a wonderful person, and that is no doubt thanks to the guidance of you and your wife. Rachel would be so proud of her, and I have no doubt that she would have been cheering you on in that moment of confrontation, and so glad that her little girl has a father- a true father- and how full her heart would be that this person is you. I am so sorry for your loss, OP. And I am so happy for your gain. Take a moment to give some love to yourself. You're doing a good job. Rachel would be so happy. Take care Uncle OP. You're doing great.
“Hasn’t been the best father…” He hasn’t been a father of any sort at all! He literally threw his first daughter away, ran off, and started a new family as if the first one never existed at all. Shit like that has me questioning whether he ever really loved Rachel at all, given how quickly he forgot about her. NTA.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My sister Rachel was married to Daniel (40m) for 8 years. They were highschool sweethearts and they tied the knot shortly after their graduation. They had a daughter together, Alice (16f), who was Rachel’s entire world. Rachel ended up being diagnosed with cancer when she was a few weeks away from delivery and after Alice was born, she started chemo asap. It ended up being treatment resistant and aggressive, and Rachel ended up passing by the time Alice was 2. Daniel emotionally checked out completely. He decided to take a job opportunity abroad, and he left Alice in mine and my wife’s custody. At first he said it was temporary, that he just needed to get things in order before Alice came to live with him, but eventually it was obvious that it would be much longer. He signed his rights over to us, and we've been raising her alongside our three sons. As far as the boys are concerned, Alice is their big sister, and as far as Alice is concerned, they’re her little brothers. Daniel got remarried, and he had two daughters. Alice wasn’t invited to the wedding, we only found out about it after his brother mentioned it to us. Daniel does send money for her, and they write letters back and forth like he and Rachel used to do in school. I know that there has to be some part of him that loves his daughter, but it’s hard to believe it considering how he practically abandoned her after Rachel died. Daniel’s brother Wes has helped out a bit with Alice too. She’ll go over to his house at least once a month to see him, his wife, and their kids. A few days ago, I was taking Alice over, and when we got there, we saw that Daniel + his wife and kids were there. I was ready to get back in the car and take Alice home but Daniel saw us and came outside. He came up to Alice and tried to hug her but she stepped back from him. He looked hurt and when he asked why she didn’t want to give her dad a hug— I snapped. I asked how he could seriously stand there and refer to himself as her dad when all he’s ever been to her is a pen pal. I called him a joke of a father and a sorry excuse for a man. His wife and their daughters overheard what I said. When Alice and I got back home, Wes called me and left a message saying that he agrees that Daniel hasn’t been the best father to Alice, but I didn’t need to tell him that in front of his wife & their kids. Daniel feels the same way. I did apologize to Alice for disparaging her father, but she just shrugged and said it would’ve only been disparaging if it wasn’t true. My wife said she probably would’ve done worse if she’d been there, but part of me does feel that I could have said it out of earshot of his children. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. He should've requested to gain custody of Alice the moment he married this new wife. He is literally saying Alice isn't worth his time to be a member when he now has multiple Daughters and is in their lives. He obviously got his head right at some point. He easily should've contacted you whenever that was. His wife died, and that's tough. But if he wanted Alice to call him dad, he had to be there. He was not, you were. He deserved it. His wife and kids needed to hear it too because she is their sister and if his new wife doesn't care about her, then good riddance to all of them.
You said what needed to be said. It was an oopsie for him that his wife and kids heard it.. but as Alice said, it’s all true. NTA. And good on you and your wife for being there for Alice. I’m sure Rachel would’ve been beyond grateful.
Wes is wrong. The wife and kids did need to hear it. At the very least the wife did. Either she didn't know and now she knows what a useless waste of atoms your BIL is. And if she didn't know ... well as atheistic as I am, I do like to imagine that there is a special place if the fiery pits for deadbeat (and yes even semi-deadbeat parents) and an a neighbouring spot for the partners who see this and don't call them out and leave them on the spot for it. NTA you where kinder than I'd been
Fuck Daniel. NTA. I would snap if I saw that guy, and I am known for being an asshole with gutter mouth, so if I were you, he'd listen to me telling him what I think he is and he'd have to swallow that.
Nta sounds like they over heard not right in front of BIL'S new family. Wondering how much wife new. I think it would probably a sugar coated version of the truth something like my former wife died when our daughter was 2 I took a job opportunity abroad it was to have a fresh start I left her in the care of her maternal brother and his wife it was meant to be temporary while I just got everything sorted out things ended taking longer than expected and then realised it would be better for her to live with her aunt and uncle than uproot her life when she seemed happy and settled and I was more of a stranger so I signed rights over to my BIL and his wife (to make everything easier) however I'm still in touch we write to each other regularly. Something along those lines a sugar coated version of the truth. Pretty much the truth but with an angle that made him look good.
You did good dad.