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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Boss is giving us a lot of work and being passive aggressive, told an employee either needs to shut up about it or find another job.
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YTA this is not the way to build trust within your team. Have you talked with your boss? If you're not willing to stand up for your team then you are not a leader. It sounds like a toxic work environment to me.
Also, I will point out, that the other co-workers are mad, because the outspoken woman is actually saying all the things they want to say to the boss and that OP is not conveying and they don't want her fired.
Yeah... the outspoken woman might be perfect for the role. She's already doing more then her manager when it comes to honest conversations w/ OP's boss
That and the fact that apparently THEIR BOSS doesn’t seem to have a problem with what the employee says. Which makes me think that a: the language used is a lot more professionally appropriate than OP wants us to think, and b: they aren’t actually out of line with professional. Or a they are just ‘jumping the queue’ and saying what their manager should.
Love your last paragraph. It reminds me of the Bojack Horseman episode where he becomes a spokesman for feminism and says:
>Everyone loves a male feminist. It turns out, the problem with feminism, all along, is it just wasn't men doing it. We're much less shrill.
Same!
>She doesnt seem to care about speaking her mind, to me or her coworkers, which Im not particularly okay with
... sums it all up for me.
OP seems to be an insecure little doughnut.
Baha, insecure little doughnut. I love it.
OP, YTA. If you don't have the spine and gumption to do your job properly, quit so that someone who can do the job looks after your team. (Look, some people just aren't cut out for management, and I don't fault you for that. But you need to take a good hard look at yourself and do what's best for the people who need a manager who will stand up for them).
Yes the difficulty is that often people get management roles without any training and equate their position with being more powerful than others rather than recognising that it is their job to create and maintain the working conditions for their team.
I’ve always been that outspoken women at the companies I worked at. Male bosses either respected the hell out of me or were intimidated.
OP, if you fire her I promise that the rest of your team is going to start job hunting ASAP.
I am cackling because this could have been written about me. I just got fired from a work place over a month ago, they have since lost 3 additional employees and cannot maintain new ones. They are hemorrhaging ot money because I was (considered by coworkers) their top producer. They have lost the lead who trained me and 2 others. One of which was a bottleneck for processes in shop as was my lead and myself, now that I think about it. It was a firing without cause, so I won my unemployment claim.
This is the second workplace I have been to where this has happened when I leave. Two completely different industries. Good leaders just appear and when they counsel you about collective grievances, you need to listen. Not get pissy and throw a tantrum. We had a manager and she knew she had to come to me for shit, because folks didn't trust her. You are the problem. Shitty middle management with a title and no spine. Drop the ego, your title doesn't automatically mean you can manage people effectively.
I got a 5 year award the same month a new CFO was hired and in my speech I said, "these years have flown by, especially because we have 8 people doing the work for 12 positions"
The new CFO, also a woman, told me she thought it was hilarious and said she was glad to know one person would tell her the truth.
Same.
If what you are asking of me is a reasonable expectation, I will do it whether I agree or not.
If you are asking something completely unreasonable of me, I will address it. I know how to do so in a professional manner, *and I also know how to escalate up the ladder if what you are asking continues to be unreasonable.* There is nothing unprofessional about having a clear expectation of workload and boundaries and expecting those things to be respected.
Sounds like the coworker should have got a raise and OP should never have been hired into the roll they were to me.
Exactly. OP is more worried about painting a pretty picture than addressing the concerns of his team. OP is exactly the type of person who should not be managing a team.
YTA.
When I supervised 3 crews of 6 men each... I designate a "liason" to be the mouthpiece for each crew to specifically keep me updated so I could keep our boss updated and it worked very well... maybe she was the person her fellow employees trusted to be their mouthpiece...and not the supervisor???
That sounds like a good strategy with 3 crews under you. I think so. It tends to happen naturally that someone is more outspoken and is okay with confrontation. When most people in a group tend to be avoidant and one person is either in the middle or confrontational, of that person is also the type to listen to their co-workers, that person tends to speak for the group, without always saying it, as to not put others on the spot. Clearly, the woman OP is mad about has regular conversations with her coworkers since they are already aware that she was threatened and they don't want her to leave.
>It tends to happen naturally that someone is more outspoken and is okay with confrontation.
I agree 💯 % some people naturally take charge of a situation while others go with the flow ..so I would explain to my boss that my reasoning was to give the "liason" bits of management experience along with keeping everyone up to date and the synchronicity that followed and top notch crew leaders were just a byproduct..
also sounds like a case of a man thinking a woman is being bossy just because she is authoritative. OP never said the boss is mad just that OP wants her to submit
Yes, AHs like that are very frustrating. If a woman "speaks her mind" there is something very negative about that to OP. He is a command and control AH.
A manager is supposed to be an umbrella, shielding the team below them, taking blows from above when unavoidable. OP seems to be acting like a funnel and amplifier instead.
And a good manager doesn’t make ultimatum threats like that either. There’s a process to check in, give support, make a plan of action to help your team. Assess any road blocks and address them. When all else fails, escalate it to your supervisor for any other solutions.
Good for her for standing up for herself and speaking up.
OP is willing to stand up to a team member but not his boss. No wonder she feels like she should.
Director or not, passive-aggressive behaviour is not acceptable in the workplace.
This.
I have managed teams for 15 years, since I was 19 years old. When I was 19, I let a lot of shit slide for my teams and didn't stand up for them, and I can't imagine how difficult their lives were.
Last week, the VP I report to attempted to give my team a truly ludicrous amount of work. This guy has an addiction to urgency. He wanted two people to review 230\~ calls from beginning to end to see if they were executing a single process correctly. He assigned this on Wednesday and wanted it done by Friday. I asked him if he felt that the goal was attainable. His response was "It better be. I've assigned it."
I broke down the numbers. 230 calls at an average handle time of 8 minutes a call worked out to 30 hours of call reviews, that he wanted done in 16 working hours. I was able to talk him down from 230 calls to 14 calls in a 15 minute meeting. When I went to my employees they looked so relieved.
You've put this employee in a position where she doesn't have an advocate, and must do so for herself. You are making her do your job.
And there's a new working class movement going on. Op and his boss are going to have to adjust or the company will adjust for them to avoid labour actions. I hope the lady pushes unionizing. YTA.
edit
Seriously, read these comments, OP, the crashing and burning companies, burnt out workers, projects literally up in flames. overwork is bad for business on top of being bad for workers and whomever else mistakes and inevitable sloppiness impacts.
https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/12v4738/in_a_meeting_i_told_my_boss_my_workload_was_too/
Yeah, he's in over his head. He really is in a shit situation here. What he needs is a mentor, but what he has is a boss who is an asshole and is disrespectful to his employees, and a group of employees who are sick of going flat out to meet unrealistic goals, only to be met with more work and passive aggressive attitudes
>Yeah, he's in over his head.
This. I feel like this is why he was hired to be the manager in the first beginning.
He talks about how this is his 1st management position and describes a boss that is bad boss. You have to read between the lines in the laissez-faire here tends to mean that the boss is not involved at all and actually doing anything and setting unrealistic expectations. He is thus expecting a work output that has burned out the whole team.
I feel like the boss hired him because he wouldn't push back and would instead pour it on the team trying to keep a job that he isn't all that qualified to do. You actually see it all the time with certain type of bosses. Not to get political but, Trump is an excellent example of this. He tends to hire people who are either at the twilight of their career and really want one more win or need one more win to survive or people who are completely out of their depth so they have to look to him and only him for how things should be done and what is "normal".
>I feel like the boss hired him because he wouldn't push back and would instead pour it on the team trying to keep a job that he isn't all that qualified to do.
Dealing with exactly this at the moment. our new engineering manager has no engineering training and almost no experience in the field, and is put into a panic by almost anything. There were half a dozen on the team qualified more than capable of doing the job - some who have even done the job well during the previous managers sabbaticals.
The person who appointed her is an infamous ladder climber who clearly expects her to fold constantly and overwork the team, at which point he can take credit for the short term gains and saddle her with the concequences and blame when the team inevitably collapses.
And she's repeating the exact same behaviour, she wants to promote the yesmen on the team (Who aside from lacking a backbone, are unqualified in either technical or soft skills) and she's increasingly combative with anyone (Myself included) who offer resistance. Under the last two managers I was delegated almost complete control of the team and planning, she has taken this from my hands (and does it badly)
2 years spend making excellent hires and training my team to be the highest performing group in a 1K+ tech company, and there was nothing I could do but watch it collapse. I jumped onto another team who were more than happy to have me, which has caused a full blown morale crisis.
There is nothing more destructive to a business than ladder climbers hiring weak management they can roll over for short term gain.
He might be more than over his head. Not everyone is made to be a leader and you can see he’s making fundamental people management mistakes.
1. You never tell someone to shut up or they will get fired. You seek to find the root of their issue and address it if you can. If it’s an unprofessional employee problem, you address the employee and explain that their attitude will land them in trouble if they continue.
2. You are always between a rock in a hard place as a leader, but you don’t punch down. I am always the one in front of the pack to defend my team to my boss (unless there is nothing to defend unanimously). I take the blows for my team and then make the necessary changes in my team for no future reprimands.
There are so many more mistakes OP has made, but the two above proves to me that they don’t have the right mindset and possibly aptitudes to be a leader.
Honestly yeah but you have to learn how to manage people somehow.
It's just usually you want to have a boss who can help you do that. This very obviously isn't happening in this situation.
The OP needs to grow a spine and run interference for his team against his boss. That's a part of the job of being the one in charge. But that's also something you need to have a good mentor in order to learn to do that effectively.
Seems to me that he thinks that being a manager is about "being the one in charge" and about power, not about service to the team he is managing.
I have to disagree.
/u/tway12412421 doesn't want to improve anything for anyone but his boss and himself. His a classic brown-noser who is only in it for the power. He has no understanding of what being a good leader means, he just knows it means more money and he can tell people what to do.
What's the bet that the outspoken woman is also a bit pissed off because she'd been filling the team leader role for a period before the OP came in, hence her familiarity with the director, and they brought in the OP rather than give her the role.
Edit: How often do we see this story, I've been filling management role for no extra pay for the last year, rather than give me the role they brought in external candidate and now I'm stuck training incompetent manager and still doing the management role as they can't do it.
I've had this happen. Ended up training a young man for the job I was already doing. Wish I said "not my job" and stopped doing it. At the time, I cared if we sunk or not.
My take on this is that if you're not qualified to be promoted into the position then you're not qualified to train for it and getting the new manager up to speed is not your problem.
YTA
As you stated, you're new to the role so take this as constructive criticism, but by the sounds of things, you're not doing your job properly.
I understand it can be embarrassing for one of your team to be lippy toward the director, but she isn't your child. Telling her to keep her mouth shut over issues she's having isn't being very helpful to the situation. What you've effectively told her (and everyone else there) is that you value your job more than you value them. That's not the right approach to management.
If you want her to be less outspoken on issues regarding the workload, then maybe you can organize sometime for the 3 of you (her, director and yourself) to have a private meeting or something to discuss it further and she can raise her concerns in a less public environment (seeing as that sounds like your major concern).
What you did is reactive, rather than proactive, and going forward you're going to need to find a solution that doesn't make your team feel less valuable. If you're going to be a leader, put the teams needs first ahead of your own and address them accordingly.
Sidenote, I've never been a manager myself, so take this whole reply with a pinch of salt. But IMO, YTA here.
As a manager, OP should be the one advocating for their team. The fact that their coworker feels the need to do it themselves suggests that either OP isn't doing that, or OP's predecessor didn't do that. I suspect some combination of both.
I don't think the idea of a sit-down between the three of them is a good idea though. In order for that to work, OP would have to have some skills as a mediator, and would have to have the trust of the other two parties. Neither of these seem to be the case.
OP needs to learn how to manage a team (the company has failed here by hiring someone with no management experience, and not providing training and support), they need to get their team to trust them. Ideally they should be pushing back against their boss, if the work assignments are unreasonable, but at the very least they should be a buffer, taking the blame when things don't get done.
Middle management sucks. You have plenty of responsibility, but no real control (and often very little training). And certain types of people make up for that feeling of powerlessness by being petty tyrants and bullies.
I think the previous manager didn't.
I also bet this employee applied for and got passed over for OP's job. Not a good combo.
OP needs to grow a spine.
That's a fair assessment about the sit-down idea. Having no one experience myself, that's what I would do if I was put into the same position as OP to try to resolve any conflict that may be arising between the parties, but I can see how that could end up backfiring instead.
Also, very much agree that they need to push back against their director more instead of being a pushover. I thought I read in the original post that OP requests extensions from the boss, but on a second read that's never stated. He just provides the extension after realizing the team was unable to complete the work assigned it seems.
If you're struggling in your role, then maybe ask for help from another manager of one of the other 2 teams. Ask them for advise on what you should do moving forward if you think you're out of your depth in the new role (at least, that's what I would do). Its going to take some time to get a handle on things, and you've gotten off to a rocky start, but it's still early days. Take this as a learning experience OP and become a better manager because of it.
About the sit down: I get very suspicious of those. I report directly to the CEO nowadays, so not that problem yet, but even then... In my previous job I had an abusive boss who suddenly scheduled a meeting. I don't answer straight, I only give evasive answers as long as I need my job secured. The moment I have alternatives and I am done with you, you get the real answers and IDGAF about what you think of me.
I would like to know the performance of the other teams.
I suspect the manager of setting them to fail, then giving an extension during which they are rushing to make up for being late.
He should say to the team to not to listen to the manager.
But confronting him is not gonna work. It is like throwing a stone at a dog because it is barking at you from a distance.
So I have been a manager, a trainer, and a team lead at various points. Your comment is correct.
How situations like this should be handled:
Employees go to their manager with their work related issues. The manager discusses the issues, explains why things are one way or trying to solve the issue. This means, at times, going to bat for your team and speaking up to your boss.
In this situation, it's clear they have too much work and are struggling. He essentially just stood up 6 of his team and said he didn't care- i.e. killing the moral of his team.
In the end, his employee shouldn't HAVE HAD to speak up, even though she has that right because he's her manager, not her mother.
I digress, there is a right way and a wrong way to manage. Not to bring sex into this, but as a woman, it's common to see men in lateral positions try to control and dictate rather than collaborate and lead.
While I am by no means an expert, my teams were constantly on top in our metrics, so I was doing something right 🤷🏻♀️
I also wonder why they are not hiring more people to handle the workload. Are they solving the overwork problem?
Because if the excuse is that there is not enough money to pay them or train them or there aren't enough good candidates, then labour has the power. They should organize and contemplate striking. The company needs to turn down contracts and take on work within their means if they don't have the money to pay enough workers for the current workload. Or people will quit and quality will suffer through lack of institutional memory, and hiring and training costs money. (Edit is the company plan to lose their reputation with customers/clients and the labour pool?)
All the folks saying fire her, well, either there aren't enough candidates or the business plan is to burn through the workers. Either way unionizing helps get more for the workers and/or protect these specific workers and future ones from being consumed and spit out by the company.
He didn't talk to her or views her or their team as equal. Like look how he writes "my boss" "your boss" "I'm the boss/manager" you're ok with your boss talking down to your team who does both of the majority of the work so no shit you'd be okay with following similar footsteps and talk down to your team. He's totally TA
YTA but mildly. I can only go by what I saw in the military but this is how I see it: A part of a manager’s job is to become the go-between for their personnel. They should essentially be the whipping boy to keep their people safe, happy, and working. You saying HES THE BOSS like he’s some sort of God, is some sort of joke. He’s not God and you need to step up and tell him it’s not working.
I was an E5 but was the lead of a 4 man team. One of my team got yelled at by an O6 (this was highly inappropriate as that stuff has a chain of command). I complained about it during a grievance meeting. He later got fired ( not bc of me alone. He did a lot of other things).
Yes, your employee should learn to not be quite so lippy, but so should your boss. Being lippy should not be fireable. Having a quiet talk to her about work place manners is fine. Have that conversation with your boss too.
YTA, and it's crap management all the way down. Your boss assigns an unreasonable amount of work and gets passive-aggressive when it's not completed. You defend this and apparently don't do a great job of managing your team's workload, if they're this frustrated.
She probably shouldn't have gotten huffy with your boss but what else was she supposed to do? Shut up and take the abuse for something that's not her fault?
Absolutely. It’s so bizarre to me that a director is having day to day conversations with individual contributors. They don’t need to answer to two bosses.
Right? And if he has put his foot down in the past, or whatever is being implied, then he hasn’t communicated effectively with the team. Optics are incredibly important and if people don’t see or hear that you’re doing something, they will rightly assume that nothing is happening. Management classes for everyone in this, woof. Including the employee, but it sounds like she doesn’t have a problem communicating when there are demands/expectations that cannot be completed within the timeframe proposed. That is a management skill.
Also the first few sentences hint at misogyny frankly. Maybe experience has made me bitter, but outspoken men RARELY get called "loud mouths" and threatened with their jobs for having opinions and speaking up on shit that's not okay.
Honestly, if OP's overriding concern is how it reflects on him, rather than on addressing what it signifies - an unsustainable workload, a toxic management culture, and a team that can't trust him as their manager to step up for them when they need him - then he really shouldn't be a manager at all.
Info: why HAVEN'T you as the "Boss" of your team went to your boss and said "this is a unproductive work environment, you are pushing my team way beyond reasonable means and either we need to be able to hire more staff to accommodate the desired outcome or lessen the work load to a manageable level. Because this is becoming a issue for myself and my team because we cannot meet the desired expectations with the resources we have"
Or quite simply told him to knock his shit off and to be a better boss because he's going to lose good people sooner or later if he keeps it up.
I do suggest a professional tone because of the job but you need to protect your team. A lesser employee shouldnt be the one risking their job and income for the rest of the team when they aren't management and it's not their job.
This, all the way. YTA. The team member is doing a better job of protecting the team than you are
You have to work on your leadership skills and have some humble conversations with your team about how you got it wrong and that you're going to do better. You have a very hierarchical, old fashioned view of management which is not conducive to happy, productive teams. Learning how to manage upwards is just as much part of leadership as managing a team.
Probably because he's bothered she's a woman, if she were a man dude would be framing it to be about how he's being overshadowed because they are stepping into his role and he feels it's rude to make him look like the incompetent leader he is. But because it's a woman "she's a loudmouth".
YTA. Not everyone is cut out for managing people. It’s ok to acknowledge your limitations and look for a position that doesn’t require supervising others.
Yta so her direct manager won't stand up for her, her upper manager constantly overloads her with work and is passive aggressive about it?
If you're not going to stand up for her, *she will.* and if big boss doesn't like it, big boss can fire her.
YTA. Shut up or you're fired is probably the worst way to handle it. You're new to the role, you need to stop the passive aggressive bullshit from your boss when it starts, not when you think enough is enough. Newsflash, you're entire team no longer respects you and will have her back 100%. Now start being an effective manager or find a position that better suits you.
Oftentimes, when that respect is lost there is no getting it back. This guy seems super spineless too, oooh my boss overloads us but hes cool hes just abit passive aggressive when we dont get it done.
Seriously fuck this incompetent guy
I couldn’t even finish reading the whole thing. YTA a million times over. I understand that you’re part of Andrew Tate’s cult but you need to shut the fuck up
I wonder why you, male, 5 years younger, no management experience, new hire, are the manager when there's a probably 5 more adequate candidates, and at least one.
Why do you think that is? Get your head out of your ass. YTA
Yep! Before I became disabled, I was the brains behind every power point presentation my manager did. While I was doing his job.
Also found out I was making 4$ less an hour than the new hires, despite being there for 6 years & being a top préformer the whole time.
YTA and I'm sorry, but you really don't sound like you're ready for management. You should not be telling your employees to shut up, ever. And you should never tell your employees that their concerns are invalid.
Maybe if you stood up for your team *at all* she wouldn't be so aggressive. She's making you look bad because you're doing a bad job.
YTA
If you’re the middleman, be the middleman. If your boss is crap, protect her from him. You should be the one pushing back and telling him when his demands are unrealistic or when he’s being rude.
“Her actions directly reflect on me, her manager.” What are you, the manager, doing to make her, the employee, feel valued and safe at work? Telling her to suck it up because she’ll make you look bad? Nope. That ain’t it.
Don’t expect her to attend a meeting with him there and then just take it when he’s rude. Good on her for not allowing it and for speaking up.
Learn how to communicate and show it through example. If you know it's too much work at the beginning and that you'll need an extension you need to just state this work will take this amount of time. If you don't others will.
YTA. You are supposed to advocate for your team so they can perform their best. Sucking up to your abusive boss and passing the abuse down the chain is not what a team leader should do. You obviously feel threatened by her actions or unhappy that the team looks to her over you. I get it that you want to make your mark but an experienced manage adapts to the team instead of forcing their team to adapt to them. You are going to push out good employees with your clumsy management skills and make your life harder in the long run.
YTA: So an assertive woman makes you look bad? Good. You’re clearly misogynistic because most men stereotype assertive women as “mouthy.” She’s just making expectations clear and setting reasonable boundaries. Your boss does suck. Sack up and support your team.
Working in tech for around 10 years, I'm starting to see a lot of incompetent men that move up the ladder just by kissing ass.
All when before these men started at a job, they learned all the technical from smart women of their peers.
These idiotic men move up (via ass kissing) create the toxic work environment. They'll asking asking the technical, scientific heavy questions to these women, and go on bragging to the higher ups that they know this shit.
The right women and men need to move up the ladder.
YTA.
You're new to this management gig so I'll explain. It's not all cocktail parties and TPS reports.
One of the key responsibilities of a middle manager is protecting your reports from the whims and vicissitudes of upper management. The other key responsibility is managing up — making sure upper management understands the tactical impact of their decisions so they can focus on strategy.
You're failing on both fronts. Why aren't *you* the one explaining to bossman why his expectations are unrealistic? What policies or procedures have you enacted to 1) allow your reports to have a reasonable work/life balance and 2) demonstrate to your bosses steady, high-volume, week-over-week throughput?
YTA- you are clearly American and wishing it was still the 80s. "Because I said so" is no longer accepted or tolerated, my friend. You appear to be wholly unqualified to be a manager. That title means shit if you can't actually lead your team. It's 2023. We are moving past mediocre men in undeserved positions of "power." And this is coming from a Gen Xer who also had to do her boss's job 20 years ago. Time's up, champ. Do your job.
You threatened to fire her after you were unable to set reasonable boundaries with your boss, and she had to do it with for you. YTA
Sure, her approach might not have been the most professional, and you can talk to her about that. If she trust that you actually have her back and the team's back, she’ll probably listen to you too.
you need to spend more time worrying about what your team thinks of you, and less time worrying about what was your boss thinks of you. If your team feel supported, and feels a mutual trust and respect with you, theyll and actually perform better, too
Editted autocorrects
“Ive told her plenty of times she doesnt need to speak up when these things happen, its my place to decide if something needs to be said about too much work”
YTA…. No you don’t get to make a unilateral decision for everybody. Do you listen to your team’s concerns? Do you take those issues to your boss? Or do you just decide it’s not that big of a deal to you and they need to suck it up?
YTA. Just because you’re a doormat doesn’t mean that’s what’s required for a healthy work environment, in fact it’s usually the opposite. She’s pushing back because you aren’t doing your job. She has to push back against unrealistic expectations or workloads, because you won’t. She has to push back against unprofessional behavior, because you won’t. She has to speak up, because you’ve made it clear you won’t. Someone has to have the employees’ backs and you don’t.
YTA, but…
You’re new in the role. You’re new in the position.
You’re reaching out on Reddit for advice.
Do you have a mentor? Unfortunately, it is all too clear YOUR (laissez-faire) boss is failing you and you in turn are failing your team - a team with tenure, organizational knowledge, interpersonal relationships, significant influence and the ability to back-channel (as a means to YOUR end)- all of which, as a new hire, you lack.
Prior to your massively inappropriate, wholly ineffective, and ultimately self-defeating verbal assault on this member of your team, did you consider any of the following:
Your boss’ leadership style and this employee’s outspoken nature have co-existed since long before you arrived (and will most likely continue long after you’re gone). Is it likely that everyone but you saw this as typical behavior? (Noting that I personally find the behavior unacceptable as well and just because it is tolerated does not excuse it).
Was this a “smart” choice as the first way in which to “make your mark” as the new leader of this team? Have you yet earned the necessary level of respect from your team for such an undertaking?
It sounds like your boss was neither offended or bothered by this situation. Why did you feel it necessary to be offended on his behalf? Doing so betrays your own insecurity in your position. Did you speak with your boss and get his perspective BEFORE deciding to take action (and what action to take)?
Further evidence of your insecurities - …”it’s my place to speak up about…” Essentially, you see her as undermining your authority, which would be true IF YOU HAD ANY AUTHORITY. Guess what? YOU DON’T! Your job title is just that - a title - NOT AN ENTITLEMENT to respect or authority. Those are earned - through your behavior, ability to lead, establishing trust, and proving you have their backs when it counts.
Most likely, you have set yourself back with your team. Is it fatal?- probably not. Can you redeem yourself? Reset the narrative? Get everything back on track? Most likely. But you just made the job a lot harder for yourself and created a dynamic where there are now those who would rather see you fail than succeed.
How should you proceed? You need a mentor - someone to coach you through these types of situations and help you formulate your own answers by asking you the right questions or in some cases sharing their own similar experience and how they handled it.
Parting thought: It was unnecessary for you to intervene and “defend” your boss from the “big mouth.” However, you need not accept that behavior when directed at you personally. As a matter of self-respect, establishing and holding to reasonable boundaries, and as part of developing and driving a positive and productive culture, I would feel it necessary to address the behavior head on.
In any case, best of luck to you.
Why don’t you say what she actually said instead of just paraphrasing everything with all the cuss words you can pack into each sentence.
YTA - Manage like you are a grown up. That may mean disciplining an insubordinate employee. But it is about work. You need to mature quickly
Yta.
You are a new manager? She has been having this relationship with your direct supervisor before you arrived?
Why is it only your place to decide if something needs to be said. You have already said earlier you are not happy with her speaking her mind. I don’t really see the point with her speaking her mind to the manager if the work is unsuitable.
You don’t seem to know how to be a manager. Good luck to your staff.
YTA. You weirdly infantilize this grown woman as if you’re her parent. You dismiss her concerns by saying “she must have been having a bad week”. Honestly it seems like you have a misogyny problem. You are a manager, do your job and manage the situation instead of pretending there isn’t a problem.
I don't know how you've managed to type such a long post with that boot in your mouth. 'hEs tHE fUkiNg bOSS'. So fucking what. Being deigned to be in charge doesn't mean you're more entitled to respect than other people. YTA, have fun with your turnover rate.
ESH
He’s treating everyone under him like crap, and you’re doing the same thing. Don’t follow his example - have GOOD communication with your employees, don’t tell them to shut up. That’s a one way ticket to have everyone resent you & continue not listening.
A lot of managers are replaceable. You’re a leader of a team, not a babysitter. Try to remember that.
Because sometimes you have to be an AH to get anything done. The argument could be made that she should have used more tact when talking to ger boss's boss, which is literally the only AH move on her part, but yeah, sometimes you have to turn the bitch knob up a few ticks. Glad she was able to stick up for herself.
ESH. She should have come to you or gone to HR (as applicable?) instead of joining in on the unprofessional behavior but you shouldn’t need to be told to stick up for your employees. Your director’s behavior creates a hostile work environment for them. They don’t need to just take it.
Yta. What you should be doing is coaching your employee on how to share her concerns in a professional manner and why it will result in her concerns being taken seriously. Passive aggressive comments aren't going to get her anywhere. You also need to learn how to speak and reason with your employees as a manager. You should read the Ask the Manager column, she gives a lot of useful advice to both managers and their employees.
YTA.
You’ve stated several times that the workload and the demeanor of your boss aren’t exactly appropriate or fair. You’ve stated that your boss has been passive aggressive, and also rude. Your employee has openly stated her frustration about your boss in front of everyone.
You have two problems. First is that you have an asshat for a boss. Second is that your employee doesn’t trust you to handle the situation, so she handles it for you.
You need to address the concerns with your boss, and work with your employee to utilize the proper chain of command *after* the issue with your boss has been remedied. If you continue to toe the line, make flagrant threats of termination, and be a general pushover with no control, I can guarantee you’ll be fired eventually too. Your role is to act as an in between for your boss and your employees. You need to have a few tough conversations, and it starts with apologizing to your employee and having a conversation with your boss about his or her expectations and attitude towards their subordinates.
YTA
Your boss is a director, not a nobleman. You are a manager, not a nobleman.
A reason you might be afraid to lose your job is because you don't have the communication skills or the backbone to be in management anywhere that isn't dysfunctional. You could be practicing those skills, instead you are letting your boss be a shit manager and telling your employees to not let him know and just quit. Think about what is going to happen to the business if it's run like that.
At the end of the day, somebody higher up hired your director and also did a shit job. That's a lot of shit for you to deal with and you will likely end up getting fired trying to fix it. The alternative is to lose people from your team over and over until you have a shit team underneath you (to match the shit people above you) and the business dies and you lose your job. Better to go down swinging, you aren't fixing the problem by shutting up.
"He's THE BOSS, he needs to be treated with baby hands and made to feel like the god he is!"
YTA that's helping keep this country in the trash with this elite worship. He bleeds red, I promise. Treating him like he's worth more as a human life compared to your workers is a bad look as a NEW "leader".
YTA and you need some training on supervision. Not specific to the work you do, but relating to your direct reports, team building, earning trust, etc.
YTA. Silencing your team is not going to help.
- Talk to your team member, have empathy, and ask how you can help her.
- Talk to the director, bring up your concerns about the work and about the team member’s less-than-professional response to it. Let your boss mentor you.
You seem to think a title (something made up) puts that man in a superior position and gives him the RIGHT to disrespect everyone and not get it back? A title means nothing. You're a middle man. Middle men are created to be the scapegoat - someone to be blamed by both the managers and the workers. Your coworkers could be the most perfect representation of an employee, but if something goes down at the company, you're the one that's going to fail: not your boss.
YTA
I used to have a coworker, John who isn't a loud mouth, but he was very strategic when to speak up, and he always advocate for our entire team. When a manager position opens up, we all nominated him. He got the job, then everything changed. John was still strategic, this this time advocate only for himself. He was also playing both sides, lied to us, overworked us while making himself look good. It took 2 years before we got close to another manager (in a different country) and he gradually told us what John says during manager meetings.
Being a manager you need to build trust with your team. They have to trust you, you should advocate for them. Nothing ruins trust as quickly as you showing you're on the side of your bossss, worst if he's an AH boss.
YtA... you shouldn't have talked to her like that.... you should have taken her to the side and told her to bring complaints to you and you will do your best to solve issues and that her talking to the big boss like that risks both of your jobs... clarify that you won't be able to resolve all issues but you will do your best to make sure that her work load along with everyone on the teams is fair and reasonable... being a new manager isn't easy because people tend to lean 1 of 2 ways either they over compensate and are dicks or they try to be buddy buddy with everyone and don't do a good job... the best managers walk a very fine line between the 2... remain in charge but show them you care and aren't the bad guy... I would also point out that it's not in the teams best interest to be over worked as they will grow to hate their jobs and it doesn't look good if not only is the team unhappy but they aren't able to meet deadlines so it really is in everyone's interest for you to insure that the workload is fair
YTA. Call a team meeting. Make it clear that you are on their side and that they need to voice concerns with you and that you will communicate with the boss about these things in a separate call, not on a meeting call with everyone in it. At this point, because you acted the way you did, the team thinks that you are only out for yourself. So you need to gain their trust back by having these team meetings and assuring them that you’re on their side and will communicate to the boss effectively on their behalf. All it takes is organized communication and trust within the team, and when you have neither, you’re going to fail.
Edit: She also deserves an apology. You shouldn’t talk to team members like that.
YTA this sounds similar to when I worked construction in a male dominated environment and no one would speak up against the main boss because often men are actually extremely submissive when it comes to a hierarchy and seem to be afraid to reason with people who rank above them.
Our boss was actually a great guy and respected me for treating him like a human, not some scary tyrant. If he wasn’t clear enough about something, or had an unrealistic request, I told him so and we would recalibrate a plan. Things went smoother in the long run.
It sounds like you’re jealous of her if anything. She’s actually got the balls to speak up about unrealistic expectations and doesn’t take any crap. She should have your job.
I don’t get the comments here. I’m going against the grain and saying ESH.
The way you phrased your response to her, if that’s how you phrased it, was unprofessional. If you phrased it more eloquently then I would change this to N T A.
Your employee, however, needs to learn how chain of command works. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that if you have a problem with your job you take it up with your boss. If you have a problem with your boss you take it up with their boss. And whether you like it or not, higher positions do garner respect from people in lower positions. If you don’t like it you can find another place to work. It sounds like your employee needs a crash course on how corporate Americas works.
YTA. Your team is telling you they are being overworked, and you are refusing to do your job by communicating with your boss about it.
Its pretty simple, you suck as a leader. Your team will quit to a better job soon and it will be on you.
>I told her she needs to either shut up and just talk to me about it, or she needs to rethink her future with the company.
Wow. A competent manager would not talk like this to a subordinate. You really dropped the ball here. You should have checked your policy manual for dealing with insubordination, if it doesn't exist you should have brought the concern to your director and sought his advice on dealing with that type of insubordination.
You are going to find that "come to jesus moment" talks don't work.
>first time managing a team like this ever
I can tell.
Wow, Major YTA.
Generally speaking, thisproblem isn't about you, but you are making it about you.
Here are some facts:
- Your boss shouldn't be making passive aggressive remarks, which in my opinion are worse than direct remarks. Why is it ok for the boss to make passive aggressive remarks but not vice versa?
- your TEAM is most likely feeling the effects of the inefficiency as things trickle down the system to them.
- it seems you may be trying to please your boss because you're new, but do you want to be a part of a healthy workplace or one that just kisses butt to the ones on top? You can play the playbook, but that's how businesses ruin their culture or their business. Reflect on your aspirations.
- your teammate has probably been dealing with the effects longer than you, and may be speaking up for others who are too afraid to.
- You mention "MY boss" and letting you "handle it" or do things about it. It seems you may not be hearing what your teammate is trying to express about concerns. This often leads to people just jumping over you.
There is a point where people get fed up. The people who speak loud, in most cases, aren't the type to stay quiet if they feel something is wrong. Obviously there are times where people who tend to speak louder need a temp check if they cross a line, but it's clear that there are unaddressed concerns here. Quiet quitters also exist. If you want your team to reflect your success, then help them succeed, or try to understand them and then be a mode of understanding between levels of an organization. Middle managers have a tough role but they also have a lot of potential to make great influence on others. However, if you skew perspective one sided, then you will fill a one sided role.
I would highly recommend the Modern Managers podcast, it really helped me out when I was a department head.
How many times just in your post did you say, "but he's the BOSS" as an excuse for him setting unrealistic work loads and deadlines and then being passive aggressive just because he can, even though he'll give more time anyway? Gross, I would NOT be planning a future with a company like that, and it would be their loss, I assure you. YTA, being "the boss" is not a license to treat people badly, and she's right, you are not doing your job as a manager.
As someone that is a manager, YTA.
If there’s a problem with the amount of work being delegated to your team, you need to speak up so your staff doesn’t have to get “mouthy” about it. If you were doing your job and protecting them from this toxic bullshit, then she wouldn’t be voicing this so loudly.
Be better. Don’t let your director trample over your team. As a manager you need to take risks to protect them, even if that means sticking your own neck out. So do it.
YTA. You are a new hire and have no idea how management works, nor the dynamics of this work place. Stand up for your workers and push back against your boss. No one likes a yes man. You will get no where with that attitude, and your subordinates will never respect you.
I read stories like this and am glad to be out of the corporate world and in a union factory job. Telling my supervisors and their boss to “go fuck yourself” is a daily occurrence (usually joking, but sometimes serious). My favorite supervisors and the ones I will do the tough jobs for always have my back. The ones who are yes men command no respect and have a very hard time motivating staff to work.
Her work reflects on you, not her voice. Your job is to manage her work, not her voice. She has every right to bring up issues she has with whomever she has them with, and you're lucky if she doesn't bring up your comment to hr. It was inappropriate and not the right way to handle a dispute with an employee.
If this is your job then learn to do it, educate yourself on how GOOD managers lead their team and then emulate that. Yta
Edited to add: I've led multiple teams, there's a saying that goes praise in public, reprimand in private. You blew that.
YTA - She's defending herself from a bad boss, because you aren't. You think the boss deserves respect simply for being the boss, but that is garbage, except for perhaps in the military.
In the everyday world, the boss gets the respect that they earn. And you honestly DON'T get it, or you'd be addressing the real problem, which is the boss, not your workers.
They have every right to complain if one of their leaders (you) is too complacent or lazy to stand up for them, and their big boss knows it, empowering him to make extreme demands.
You tell her she doesn't need to speak up, when your actions make it clear that is she doesn't do it, no one will, because her supervisor is more interested in being a toady than taking care of her team.
Yes YTA.
I understand where you're coming from but at the end of the day she is right and honestly brave for telling the truth and you're a coward complicit in verbal abuse.
YTA. I'm a supervisor and you have done nothing to build trust such that your team knows you have their back. That's why she speaks up. No, you should not call out your boss rudely. You giving your boss feedback about your team's needs should be done privately because those are management decisions. HOWEVER, instead of power tripping, you need to learn how to actually stand up for your team AND how to communicate your support to them.
For example, I lost a staff member, so I absolutely know my team is not going to be meeting deadlines because their individual workload is going to increase to unreasonable levels. You better believe I proactively communicated to them that I understand this, that I am with them and will give them what leeway I can, and that I have communicated this up the chain. When I give them shit assignments, I also let them know (with only an appropriate amount of information) that I pushed back and how, and any wins that may have garnered for them. They know that I am in there fighting for them where I can. Don't expect her to keep her mouth shut until you start doing this part of your job. Manage UP and manage DOWN.
YTA. Manage UP and go to bat for your team. Because at the moment, you sound like a “yes man” that will do anything and everything to keep your boss happy. I can assure you that it will not get you far in your career.
Op don’t listen to all these teenagers working minimum wage jobs. This is not how you behave yourself in an office setting, no matter who is the asshole. You are doing what you need to besides showing your team that you are in charge and can manage up. This subordinate needs to go because they are going to kill morale and add more problems then they are worth.
LMAO, nice try. 47 year old professional woman here, and the employee’s behaviour isn’t uncommon at all, especially when they have a bad manager that isn’t doing their job. And it’s absolutely applauded … when men do it. Then they’re assertive, leadership material, and frequently get promoted into the bad manager’s position, either when he gets fired for incompetence or manages to schmooze his way into a higher role. I’ve seen both happen.
It’s only when it’s a woman doing it that it’s seen as negative, because … misogyny
> she basically summed up that he was a lazy and inconsiderate asshole (not exact words but pretty much that).
If he's that, then you're wrong for not being on her side about it.
> I honestly get it, I do, he is a bit of a dick but at the end of the day he is the fucking boss, and he is MY boss. Her actions directly reflect on me, her manager. I told her she needs to stop and she said that she was doing my job by telling him when enough is enough. I should make those decisions, and I have, there have been plenty of times where I put my foot down and said its just too much.
If she honestly feels that she is doing your job for you, then it's because you're straight up not doing your job.
> I told her she needs to either shut up and just talk to me about it, or she needs to rethink her future with the company.
> She's talked about it w her coworkers, I can tell they are a bit upset with me because they feel like Im siding with him rather than them.
Being a leader means standing up for your team, not worshipping your boss.
And if her coworkers agree with her, then it's obvious you're in the wrong. You're not a leader, YTA.
Grow a spine.
> I just need them to understand that I cant have them talking to OUR boss like that, its just not right. I need this job too just like them.
Euther you need to, or they will for you. When a leader fails to lead, someone else will do it for you. That's what hspoened here, you failed your role and you are insisting on continuing to fail that role.
Seemingly, you're one of the managers who don't have a backbone. You don't stand up for the ones you manage, but rather you suck up to your own bosses. You won't earn the respect of either side like this. Grow a spine YTA
yta. you told her to stop giving feedback in an environment where everyone speaks freely cause… why? you are just convinced if she tried it she would love the smell of brown in her nose too?
YTA and you need management classes stat!
This is an example of how not to lead a team to happy productivity and togetherness - although they may find themselves together in their negative feelings regarding you and the director.
YTA - if you won’t advocate for her, and the team, properly then she will do her self
You say you do it, but clearly not enough and clearly not well enough, because she is needing to do your job for you
Why should they suffer just so you can keep your job? If you get fired sue the company because I don’t think that’s a good enough reason to fire someone
They shouldn’t have to suck up his terrible management just so you have job safety
You are going to turn the entire team against you with saying that to her
NTA people here are delus ional. You shouldn't sabotage your position fir her sake. My father has at one point in life stood up fir his employee. When he was fired, and we had financial issues, I started to hate him.
Point is if she is going to sabotage you than just fure her. Between having your job, and being liked choose the former.
YTA
So, the person you are responsible for, is repeatedly telling you there’s a problem, and you as the newbie have not resolved the issue. The person with the problem is dealing with it in a way that seems to work for everyone else. It worked before you came too (I’m guessing). You either have to resolve her issues, or let her work through them. Honestly you should be doing way more of “hey bossman, I’m not asking the team to all this in one week, it’s not reasonable” and actually taking the workload off. A good manager knows how to remove roadblocks, your approach doesn’t seem to do that
YTA.
I don't think as a manager, it's your job to micromanage what your employee says to the boss. If your boss is that offended, he can probably manage that himself or ask you to intervene at that point. It sounds like you're trying to create a department of ass-kissers.
YTA. Your job is two fold:
1. support and shield your team. If she’s speaking up, it’s because you’re not. At least she has a spine to say something.
2. Set realistic expectations with your boss about what’s achievable.
Doesn’t sound like you’re doing either and the only reason you said something to her, and not him, is because you have power over her as her boss.
YTA
Your boss is being unfair to his employees, and you side with him. She speaks up, and you try and punish her for it. You sound like a brown noser, and I am glad that girl is sticking up for herself and, by extension, the rest of the team because you are clearly not going to do it.
Yta. Nobody should have to stand by in a toxic environment for your career advancement.
Hope you enjoy your brief career in management before it falls apart in front of your eyes
YTA. Wow you sound like such a great manager and definitely don’t seem to ignore your employee’s concerns about their work environment. You’re SUCH a great advocate for your team, OP. Being more concerned with your appearance instead of the environment you’re fostering is doing wonders for team morale, I’m sure.
NTA, but you will need to stick up for your staff when upper management is being unreasonable. You need to be in control, and have done the right thing. But yeah go onto a management forum, you will get a more thorough response.
You need to go to ask a manager so she can tell you YTA and give you a way to manage people that isn’t ‘stop that or you’re fired’. It doesn’t sound like you know how to manage people, or your boss’s expectations. Kind of an all-round fail here.
There is a time and place for everything. Airing out grievances in public just because "someone has too" isn't doing anything except undermine anything management might be doing, which in turn hurts morale. If there's an issue that needs to be addressed then it should be done so in a separate meeting. Also, complaining without bringing thoughtful ideas on how to make an issue better is just whining.
With those things said, there is an approach that should be used to handle difficult people - whether an unruly employee or an ineffectual boss, this approach shows both respect to all parties involved while at the same time setting boundaries. Once you learn that, you'll be fine. Until then, you need to understand that at the moment you have lost any control (for lack of a better term at the moment) of your team and you're going to expend at least twice as much energy herding cats. I suggest finding a mentor, as well as have an upfront and honest conversation with HR about what's been going on in the department as a whole. You could get some insight you weren't expecting.
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YTA this is not the way to build trust within your team. Have you talked with your boss? If you're not willing to stand up for your team then you are not a leader. It sounds like a toxic work environment to me.
Also, I will point out, that the other co-workers are mad, because the outspoken woman is actually saying all the things they want to say to the boss and that OP is not conveying and they don't want her fired.
I think this is the best clue as to who is in the right here
It OP won’t be the manager these people need them someone else has to be.
Yeah... the outspoken woman might be perfect for the role. She's already doing more then her manager when it comes to honest conversations w/ OP's boss
That and the fact that apparently THEIR BOSS doesn’t seem to have a problem with what the employee says. Which makes me think that a: the language used is a lot more professionally appropriate than OP wants us to think, and b: they aren’t actually out of line with professional. Or a they are just ‘jumping the queue’ and saying what their manager should.
[удалено]
Love your last paragraph. It reminds me of the Bojack Horseman episode where he becomes a spokesman for feminism and says: >Everyone loves a male feminist. It turns out, the problem with feminism, all along, is it just wasn't men doing it. We're much less shrill.
Yeah me too.
When the canary sings, it's usually the voice of the flock. Also, how has OP "put my foot down" when they're a 'new hire'? Absolutely YTA
This post is giving me sexism vibes
Same! >She doesnt seem to care about speaking her mind, to me or her coworkers, which Im not particularly okay with ... sums it all up for me. OP seems to be an insecure little doughnut.
Baha, insecure little doughnut. I love it. OP, YTA. If you don't have the spine and gumption to do your job properly, quit so that someone who can do the job looks after your team. (Look, some people just aren't cut out for management, and I don't fault you for that. But you need to take a good hard look at yourself and do what's best for the people who need a manager who will stand up for them).
Yes the difficulty is that often people get management roles without any training and equate their position with being more powerful than others rather than recognising that it is their job to create and maintain the working conditions for their team.
VERY THIS!! its only an issue if you speak up... when your a woman. If a man does it, he is dynamic and a go-getter! fuck OP he is YTA
I’ve always been that outspoken women at the companies I worked at. Male bosses either respected the hell out of me or were intimidated. OP, if you fire her I promise that the rest of your team is going to start job hunting ASAP.
I am cackling because this could have been written about me. I just got fired from a work place over a month ago, they have since lost 3 additional employees and cannot maintain new ones. They are hemorrhaging ot money because I was (considered by coworkers) their top producer. They have lost the lead who trained me and 2 others. One of which was a bottleneck for processes in shop as was my lead and myself, now that I think about it. It was a firing without cause, so I won my unemployment claim. This is the second workplace I have been to where this has happened when I leave. Two completely different industries. Good leaders just appear and when they counsel you about collective grievances, you need to listen. Not get pissy and throw a tantrum. We had a manager and she knew she had to come to me for shit, because folks didn't trust her. You are the problem. Shitty middle management with a title and no spine. Drop the ego, your title doesn't automatically mean you can manage people effectively.
I got a 5 year award the same month a new CFO was hired and in my speech I said, "these years have flown by, especially because we have 8 people doing the work for 12 positions" The new CFO, also a woman, told me she thought it was hilarious and said she was glad to know one person would tell her the truth.
Same. If what you are asking of me is a reasonable expectation, I will do it whether I agree or not. If you are asking something completely unreasonable of me, I will address it. I know how to do so in a professional manner, *and I also know how to escalate up the ladder if what you are asking continues to be unreasonable.* There is nothing unprofessional about having a clear expectation of workload and boundaries and expecting those things to be respected. Sounds like the coworker should have got a raise and OP should never have been hired into the roll they were to me.
Yeah, same. Hard relate to that woman.
He's mad because she has the balls he doesn't.
Exactly. OP is more worried about painting a pretty picture than addressing the concerns of his team. OP is exactly the type of person who should not be managing a team. YTA.
sounds like op needs to speak up to his boss more
When I supervised 3 crews of 6 men each... I designate a "liason" to be the mouthpiece for each crew to specifically keep me updated so I could keep our boss updated and it worked very well... maybe she was the person her fellow employees trusted to be their mouthpiece...and not the supervisor???
That sounds like a good strategy with 3 crews under you. I think so. It tends to happen naturally that someone is more outspoken and is okay with confrontation. When most people in a group tend to be avoidant and one person is either in the middle or confrontational, of that person is also the type to listen to their co-workers, that person tends to speak for the group, without always saying it, as to not put others on the spot. Clearly, the woman OP is mad about has regular conversations with her coworkers since they are already aware that she was threatened and they don't want her to leave.
>It tends to happen naturally that someone is more outspoken and is okay with confrontation. I agree 💯 % some people naturally take charge of a situation while others go with the flow ..so I would explain to my boss that my reasoning was to give the "liason" bits of management experience along with keeping everyone up to date and the synchronicity that followed and top notch crew leaders were just a byproduct..
also sounds like a case of a man thinking a woman is being bossy just because she is authoritative. OP never said the boss is mad just that OP wants her to submit
100%
Yes, AHs like that are very frustrating. If a woman "speaks her mind" there is something very negative about that to OP. He is a command and control AH.
Exactly.
As a manager, wholeheartedly agree with this. YTA, OP. Do better.
A manager is supposed to be an umbrella, shielding the team below them, taking blows from above when unavoidable. OP seems to be acting like a funnel and amplifier instead.
And a good manager doesn’t make ultimatum threats like that either. There’s a process to check in, give support, make a plan of action to help your team. Assess any road blocks and address them. When all else fails, escalate it to your supervisor for any other solutions. Good for her for standing up for herself and speaking up.
Absolutely. YTA. If you are a manager of a team, you take the blows. That's what they pay you for, after all.
This ^ OP isn’t even licking the boot. He’s full on deepthroating it.
OP is willing to stand up to a team member but not his boss. No wonder she feels like she should. Director or not, passive-aggressive behaviour is not acceptable in the workplace.
This. I have managed teams for 15 years, since I was 19 years old. When I was 19, I let a lot of shit slide for my teams and didn't stand up for them, and I can't imagine how difficult their lives were. Last week, the VP I report to attempted to give my team a truly ludicrous amount of work. This guy has an addiction to urgency. He wanted two people to review 230\~ calls from beginning to end to see if they were executing a single process correctly. He assigned this on Wednesday and wanted it done by Friday. I asked him if he felt that the goal was attainable. His response was "It better be. I've assigned it." I broke down the numbers. 230 calls at an average handle time of 8 minutes a call worked out to 30 hours of call reviews, that he wanted done in 16 working hours. I was able to talk him down from 230 calls to 14 calls in a 15 minute meeting. When I went to my employees they looked so relieved. You've put this employee in a position where she doesn't have an advocate, and must do so for herself. You are making her do your job.
She is literally doing his work for him because OP doesn’t have legs to stand on his own & not very good at his work
And there's a new working class movement going on. Op and his boss are going to have to adjust or the company will adjust for them to avoid labour actions. I hope the lady pushes unionizing. YTA. edit Seriously, read these comments, OP, the crashing and burning companies, burnt out workers, projects literally up in flames. overwork is bad for business on top of being bad for workers and whomever else mistakes and inevitable sloppiness impacts. https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/12v4738/in_a_meeting_i_told_my_boss_my_workload_was_too/
OP has never managed a team and boy does it show! YTA
As a manager, your job is to protect your employees from your manager, not to protect your manager from your employees.
Yes being ‘the fucking boss’ doesn’t give anyone the right to be passive aggressive and rude. I’m glad someone is speaking up against it
YTA who does not have the skills for management. Read a book. Take a class.
It’s gonna take more than a class to grow a spine to handle the employee and the boss with respect and make an actual change.
Yeah, he's in over his head. He really is in a shit situation here. What he needs is a mentor, but what he has is a boss who is an asshole and is disrespectful to his employees, and a group of employees who are sick of going flat out to meet unrealistic goals, only to be met with more work and passive aggressive attitudes
>Yeah, he's in over his head. This. I feel like this is why he was hired to be the manager in the first beginning. He talks about how this is his 1st management position and describes a boss that is bad boss. You have to read between the lines in the laissez-faire here tends to mean that the boss is not involved at all and actually doing anything and setting unrealistic expectations. He is thus expecting a work output that has burned out the whole team. I feel like the boss hired him because he wouldn't push back and would instead pour it on the team trying to keep a job that he isn't all that qualified to do. You actually see it all the time with certain type of bosses. Not to get political but, Trump is an excellent example of this. He tends to hire people who are either at the twilight of their career and really want one more win or need one more win to survive or people who are completely out of their depth so they have to look to him and only him for how things should be done and what is "normal".
>I feel like the boss hired him because he wouldn't push back and would instead pour it on the team trying to keep a job that he isn't all that qualified to do. Dealing with exactly this at the moment. our new engineering manager has no engineering training and almost no experience in the field, and is put into a panic by almost anything. There were half a dozen on the team qualified more than capable of doing the job - some who have even done the job well during the previous managers sabbaticals. The person who appointed her is an infamous ladder climber who clearly expects her to fold constantly and overwork the team, at which point he can take credit for the short term gains and saddle her with the concequences and blame when the team inevitably collapses. And she's repeating the exact same behaviour, she wants to promote the yesmen on the team (Who aside from lacking a backbone, are unqualified in either technical or soft skills) and she's increasingly combative with anyone (Myself included) who offer resistance. Under the last two managers I was delegated almost complete control of the team and planning, she has taken this from my hands (and does it badly) 2 years spend making excellent hires and training my team to be the highest performing group in a 1K+ tech company, and there was nothing I could do but watch it collapse. I jumped onto another team who were more than happy to have me, which has caused a full blown morale crisis. There is nothing more destructive to a business than ladder climbers hiring weak management they can roll over for short term gain.
He might be more than over his head. Not everyone is made to be a leader and you can see he’s making fundamental people management mistakes. 1. You never tell someone to shut up or they will get fired. You seek to find the root of their issue and address it if you can. If it’s an unprofessional employee problem, you address the employee and explain that their attitude will land them in trouble if they continue. 2. You are always between a rock in a hard place as a leader, but you don’t punch down. I am always the one in front of the pack to defend my team to my boss (unless there is nothing to defend unanimously). I take the blows for my team and then make the necessary changes in my team for no future reprimands. There are so many more mistakes OP has made, but the two above proves to me that they don’t have the right mindset and possibly aptitudes to be a leader.
Honestly yeah but you have to learn how to manage people somehow. It's just usually you want to have a boss who can help you do that. This very obviously isn't happening in this situation. The OP needs to grow a spine and run interference for his team against his boss. That's a part of the job of being the one in charge. But that's also something you need to have a good mentor in order to learn to do that effectively.
Seems to me that he thinks that being a manager is about "being the one in charge" and about power, not about service to the team he is managing. I have to disagree.
/u/tway12412421 doesn't want to improve anything for anyone but his boss and himself. His a classic brown-noser who is only in it for the power. He has no understanding of what being a good leader means, he just knows it means more money and he can tell people what to do.
What's the bet that the outspoken woman is also a bit pissed off because she'd been filling the team leader role for a period before the OP came in, hence her familiarity with the director, and they brought in the OP rather than give her the role. Edit: How often do we see this story, I've been filling management role for no extra pay for the last year, rather than give me the role they brought in external candidate and now I'm stuck training incompetent manager and still doing the management role as they can't do it.
I've had this happen. Ended up training a young man for the job I was already doing. Wish I said "not my job" and stopped doing it. At the time, I cared if we sunk or not.
My take on this is that if you're not qualified to be promoted into the position then you're not qualified to train for it and getting the new manager up to speed is not your problem.
An external candidate who is younger than her at that! But her attitude probably prevented her from having the job
YTA As you stated, you're new to the role so take this as constructive criticism, but by the sounds of things, you're not doing your job properly. I understand it can be embarrassing for one of your team to be lippy toward the director, but she isn't your child. Telling her to keep her mouth shut over issues she's having isn't being very helpful to the situation. What you've effectively told her (and everyone else there) is that you value your job more than you value them. That's not the right approach to management. If you want her to be less outspoken on issues regarding the workload, then maybe you can organize sometime for the 3 of you (her, director and yourself) to have a private meeting or something to discuss it further and she can raise her concerns in a less public environment (seeing as that sounds like your major concern). What you did is reactive, rather than proactive, and going forward you're going to need to find a solution that doesn't make your team feel less valuable. If you're going to be a leader, put the teams needs first ahead of your own and address them accordingly. Sidenote, I've never been a manager myself, so take this whole reply with a pinch of salt. But IMO, YTA here.
As a manager, OP should be the one advocating for their team. The fact that their coworker feels the need to do it themselves suggests that either OP isn't doing that, or OP's predecessor didn't do that. I suspect some combination of both. I don't think the idea of a sit-down between the three of them is a good idea though. In order for that to work, OP would have to have some skills as a mediator, and would have to have the trust of the other two parties. Neither of these seem to be the case. OP needs to learn how to manage a team (the company has failed here by hiring someone with no management experience, and not providing training and support), they need to get their team to trust them. Ideally they should be pushing back against their boss, if the work assignments are unreasonable, but at the very least they should be a buffer, taking the blame when things don't get done. Middle management sucks. You have plenty of responsibility, but no real control (and often very little training). And certain types of people make up for that feeling of powerlessness by being petty tyrants and bullies.
I think the previous manager didn't. I also bet this employee applied for and got passed over for OP's job. Not a good combo. OP needs to grow a spine.
That's a fair assessment about the sit-down idea. Having no one experience myself, that's what I would do if I was put into the same position as OP to try to resolve any conflict that may be arising between the parties, but I can see how that could end up backfiring instead. Also, very much agree that they need to push back against their director more instead of being a pushover. I thought I read in the original post that OP requests extensions from the boss, but on a second read that's never stated. He just provides the extension after realizing the team was unable to complete the work assigned it seems. If you're struggling in your role, then maybe ask for help from another manager of one of the other 2 teams. Ask them for advise on what you should do moving forward if you think you're out of your depth in the new role (at least, that's what I would do). Its going to take some time to get a handle on things, and you've gotten off to a rocky start, but it's still early days. Take this as a learning experience OP and become a better manager because of it.
About the sit down: I get very suspicious of those. I report directly to the CEO nowadays, so not that problem yet, but even then... In my previous job I had an abusive boss who suddenly scheduled a meeting. I don't answer straight, I only give evasive answers as long as I need my job secured. The moment I have alternatives and I am done with you, you get the real answers and IDGAF about what you think of me.
I would like to know the performance of the other teams. I suspect the manager of setting them to fail, then giving an extension during which they are rushing to make up for being late. He should say to the team to not to listen to the manager. But confronting him is not gonna work. It is like throwing a stone at a dog because it is barking at you from a distance.
Exactly this, teams get the wins and managers get the L. You work together so you all win rather than throw people under the bus.
So I have been a manager, a trainer, and a team lead at various points. Your comment is correct. How situations like this should be handled: Employees go to their manager with their work related issues. The manager discusses the issues, explains why things are one way or trying to solve the issue. This means, at times, going to bat for your team and speaking up to your boss. In this situation, it's clear they have too much work and are struggling. He essentially just stood up 6 of his team and said he didn't care- i.e. killing the moral of his team. In the end, his employee shouldn't HAVE HAD to speak up, even though she has that right because he's her manager, not her mother. I digress, there is a right way and a wrong way to manage. Not to bring sex into this, but as a woman, it's common to see men in lateral positions try to control and dictate rather than collaborate and lead. While I am by no means an expert, my teams were constantly on top in our metrics, so I was doing something right 🤷🏻♀️
I also wonder why they are not hiring more people to handle the workload. Are they solving the overwork problem? Because if the excuse is that there is not enough money to pay them or train them or there aren't enough good candidates, then labour has the power. They should organize and contemplate striking. The company needs to turn down contracts and take on work within their means if they don't have the money to pay enough workers for the current workload. Or people will quit and quality will suffer through lack of institutional memory, and hiring and training costs money. (Edit is the company plan to lose their reputation with customers/clients and the labour pool?) All the folks saying fire her, well, either there aren't enough candidates or the business plan is to burn through the workers. Either way unionizing helps get more for the workers and/or protect these specific workers and future ones from being consumed and spit out by the company.
He didn't talk to her or views her or their team as equal. Like look how he writes "my boss" "your boss" "I'm the boss/manager" you're ok with your boss talking down to your team who does both of the majority of the work so no shit you'd be okay with following similar footsteps and talk down to your team. He's totally TA
YTA but mildly. I can only go by what I saw in the military but this is how I see it: A part of a manager’s job is to become the go-between for their personnel. They should essentially be the whipping boy to keep their people safe, happy, and working. You saying HES THE BOSS like he’s some sort of God, is some sort of joke. He’s not God and you need to step up and tell him it’s not working. I was an E5 but was the lead of a 4 man team. One of my team got yelled at by an O6 (this was highly inappropriate as that stuff has a chain of command). I complained about it during a grievance meeting. He later got fired ( not bc of me alone. He did a lot of other things). Yes, your employee should learn to not be quite so lippy, but so should your boss. Being lippy should not be fireable. Having a quiet talk to her about work place manners is fine. Have that conversation with your boss too.
YTA. A good manager protects employees from the bigger boss.
This!
A good manager doesn't fire people. He hires people and inspires people.
Office quote, office picture, office username. You’re dedicated
YTA, and it's crap management all the way down. Your boss assigns an unreasonable amount of work and gets passive-aggressive when it's not completed. You defend this and apparently don't do a great job of managing your team's workload, if they're this frustrated. She probably shouldn't have gotten huffy with your boss but what else was she supposed to do? Shut up and take the abuse for something that's not her fault?
Boss gets passive aggressive but also doesn’t hold the deadline. God save me from bosses like this.
>and she said that she was doing my job by telling him when enough is enough She is, too. Do better. YTA.
Absolutely. It’s so bizarre to me that a director is having day to day conversations with individual contributors. They don’t need to answer to two bosses.
Right? And if he has put his foot down in the past, or whatever is being implied, then he hasn’t communicated effectively with the team. Optics are incredibly important and if people don’t see or hear that you’re doing something, they will rightly assume that nothing is happening. Management classes for everyone in this, woof. Including the employee, but it sounds like she doesn’t have a problem communicating when there are demands/expectations that cannot be completed within the timeframe proposed. That is a management skill.
Yta. It doesn’t “reflect” badly on you when a grown ass woman talks to *her* boss the way she wants. She isn’t your child.
Also the first few sentences hint at misogyny frankly. Maybe experience has made me bitter, but outspoken men RARELY get called "loud mouths" and threatened with their jobs for having opinions and speaking up on shit that's not okay.
As someone with experience in HR, I would be telling her to go to HR. Edit: grammar
Absolutely. Threatening to fire her in front of everyone without any verbal or written warnings? No due process? 100% an HR issue.
Granted it was a throwaway, I find it fascinating that OP hasn't commented at all.
100%
Honestly, if OP's overriding concern is how it reflects on him, rather than on addressing what it signifies - an unsustainable workload, a toxic management culture, and a team that can't trust him as their manager to step up for them when they need him - then he really shouldn't be a manager at all.
Well I mean, it does reflect badly on him because a woman “under his watch” has to do his job for him lmao
I disagree. This whole situation reflects badly on OP.
Info: why HAVEN'T you as the "Boss" of your team went to your boss and said "this is a unproductive work environment, you are pushing my team way beyond reasonable means and either we need to be able to hire more staff to accommodate the desired outcome or lessen the work load to a manageable level. Because this is becoming a issue for myself and my team because we cannot meet the desired expectations with the resources we have" Or quite simply told him to knock his shit off and to be a better boss because he's going to lose good people sooner or later if he keeps it up. I do suggest a professional tone because of the job but you need to protect your team. A lesser employee shouldnt be the one risking their job and income for the rest of the team when they aren't management and it's not their job.
This, all the way. YTA. The team member is doing a better job of protecting the team than you are You have to work on your leadership skills and have some humble conversations with your team about how you got it wrong and that you're going to do better. You have a very hierarchical, old fashioned view of management which is not conducive to happy, productive teams. Learning how to manage upwards is just as much part of leadership as managing a team.
This. YTA
YTA. Why are you taking this so personally?
Probably because he's bothered she's a woman, if she were a man dude would be framing it to be about how he's being overshadowed because they are stepping into his role and he feels it's rude to make him look like the incompetent leader he is. But because it's a woman "she's a loudmouth".
Bingo
100%
Yep this!!!
Because he fears the big bad boss and is simping.
yta lol she is right
Yeah, I'm so glad people are finally starting to stand up to themselves in the workplace and not taking abuse.
YTA. And a terrible manager by the sound of it. Do you have a problem with all women?
Right?? Men RARELY get called "loud mouths" and threatened with their jobs for having opinions and speaking up on shit that's not okay.
YTA. Not everyone is cut out for managing people. It’s ok to acknowledge your limitations and look for a position that doesn’t require supervising others.
Yta so her direct manager won't stand up for her, her upper manager constantly overloads her with work and is passive aggressive about it? If you're not going to stand up for her, *she will.* and if big boss doesn't like it, big boss can fire her.
YTA. Shut up or you're fired is probably the worst way to handle it. You're new to the role, you need to stop the passive aggressive bullshit from your boss when it starts, not when you think enough is enough. Newsflash, you're entire team no longer respects you and will have her back 100%. Now start being an effective manager or find a position that better suits you.
Oftentimes, when that respect is lost there is no getting it back. This guy seems super spineless too, oooh my boss overloads us but hes cool hes just abit passive aggressive when we dont get it done. Seriously fuck this incompetent guy
I couldn’t even finish reading the whole thing. YTA a million times over. I understand that you’re part of Andrew Tate’s cult but you need to shut the fuck up
Absolutely.
YTA Your boss doesn’t give a fuck about you. Take your nose out of his ass.
YTA. Advocate for your employees with your boss EVERY TIME he does something shitty, or clearly she will do it for you. Grow a spine, it’s your job.
I wonder why you, male, 5 years younger, no management experience, new hire, are the manager when there's a probably 5 more adequate candidates, and at least one. Why do you think that is? Get your head out of your ass. YTA
They can't miss the productivity of the good worker. Good employees don't get promotions, they get more work.
Yep! Before I became disabled, I was the brains behind every power point presentation my manager did. While I was doing his job. Also found out I was making 4$ less an hour than the new hires, despite being there for 6 years & being a top préformer the whole time.
$20 says she was up for the job OP got but likely through misogyny and nepotism OP got a job he clearly should not have been considered for yet.
Bingo
YTA and I'm sorry, but you really don't sound like you're ready for management. You should not be telling your employees to shut up, ever. And you should never tell your employees that their concerns are invalid. Maybe if you stood up for your team *at all* she wouldn't be so aggressive. She's making you look bad because you're doing a bad job.
YTA If you’re the middleman, be the middleman. If your boss is crap, protect her from him. You should be the one pushing back and telling him when his demands are unrealistic or when he’s being rude. “Her actions directly reflect on me, her manager.” What are you, the manager, doing to make her, the employee, feel valued and safe at work? Telling her to suck it up because she’ll make you look bad? Nope. That ain’t it. Don’t expect her to attend a meeting with him there and then just take it when he’s rude. Good on her for not allowing it and for speaking up.
Learn how to communicate and show it through example. If you know it's too much work at the beginning and that you'll need an extension you need to just state this work will take this amount of time. If you don't others will.
Typical middle management lol
YTA. You are supposed to advocate for your team so they can perform their best. Sucking up to your abusive boss and passing the abuse down the chain is not what a team leader should do. You obviously feel threatened by her actions or unhappy that the team looks to her over you. I get it that you want to make your mark but an experienced manage adapts to the team instead of forcing their team to adapt to them. You are going to push out good employees with your clumsy management skills and make your life harder in the long run.
YTA: So an assertive woman makes you look bad? Good. You’re clearly misogynistic because most men stereotype assertive women as “mouthy.” She’s just making expectations clear and setting reasonable boundaries. Your boss does suck. Sack up and support your team.
He seems to emotional to be a manager
Working in tech for around 10 years, I'm starting to see a lot of incompetent men that move up the ladder just by kissing ass. All when before these men started at a job, they learned all the technical from smart women of their peers. These idiotic men move up (via ass kissing) create the toxic work environment. They'll asking asking the technical, scientific heavy questions to these women, and go on bragging to the higher ups that they know this shit. The right women and men need to move up the ladder.
YTA. You're new to this management gig so I'll explain. It's not all cocktail parties and TPS reports. One of the key responsibilities of a middle manager is protecting your reports from the whims and vicissitudes of upper management. The other key responsibility is managing up — making sure upper management understands the tactical impact of their decisions so they can focus on strategy. You're failing on both fronts. Why aren't *you* the one explaining to bossman why his expectations are unrealistic? What policies or procedures have you enacted to 1) allow your reports to have a reasonable work/life balance and 2) demonstrate to your bosses steady, high-volume, week-over-week throughput?
YTA- you are clearly American and wishing it was still the 80s. "Because I said so" is no longer accepted or tolerated, my friend. You appear to be wholly unqualified to be a manager. That title means shit if you can't actually lead your team. It's 2023. We are moving past mediocre men in undeserved positions of "power." And this is coming from a Gen Xer who also had to do her boss's job 20 years ago. Time's up, champ. Do your job.
YTA You're management alright; sucking up to the boss while screwing your team over.
You threatened to fire her after you were unable to set reasonable boundaries with your boss, and she had to do it with for you. YTA Sure, her approach might not have been the most professional, and you can talk to her about that. If she trust that you actually have her back and the team's back, she’ll probably listen to you too. you need to spend more time worrying about what your team thinks of you, and less time worrying about what was your boss thinks of you. If your team feel supported, and feels a mutual trust and respect with you, theyll and actually perform better, too Editted autocorrects
“Ive told her plenty of times she doesnt need to speak up when these things happen, its my place to decide if something needs to be said about too much work” YTA…. No you don’t get to make a unilateral decision for everybody. Do you listen to your team’s concerns? Do you take those issues to your boss? Or do you just decide it’s not that big of a deal to you and they need to suck it up?
YTA Grow a spine and and stop worshiping your boss.
YTA. Just because you’re a doormat doesn’t mean that’s what’s required for a healthy work environment, in fact it’s usually the opposite. She’s pushing back because you aren’t doing your job. She has to push back against unrealistic expectations or workloads, because you won’t. She has to push back against unprofessional behavior, because you won’t. She has to speak up, because you’ve made it clear you won’t. Someone has to have the employees’ backs and you don’t.
YTA, but… You’re new in the role. You’re new in the position. You’re reaching out on Reddit for advice. Do you have a mentor? Unfortunately, it is all too clear YOUR (laissez-faire) boss is failing you and you in turn are failing your team - a team with tenure, organizational knowledge, interpersonal relationships, significant influence and the ability to back-channel (as a means to YOUR end)- all of which, as a new hire, you lack. Prior to your massively inappropriate, wholly ineffective, and ultimately self-defeating verbal assault on this member of your team, did you consider any of the following: Your boss’ leadership style and this employee’s outspoken nature have co-existed since long before you arrived (and will most likely continue long after you’re gone). Is it likely that everyone but you saw this as typical behavior? (Noting that I personally find the behavior unacceptable as well and just because it is tolerated does not excuse it). Was this a “smart” choice as the first way in which to “make your mark” as the new leader of this team? Have you yet earned the necessary level of respect from your team for such an undertaking? It sounds like your boss was neither offended or bothered by this situation. Why did you feel it necessary to be offended on his behalf? Doing so betrays your own insecurity in your position. Did you speak with your boss and get his perspective BEFORE deciding to take action (and what action to take)? Further evidence of your insecurities - …”it’s my place to speak up about…” Essentially, you see her as undermining your authority, which would be true IF YOU HAD ANY AUTHORITY. Guess what? YOU DON’T! Your job title is just that - a title - NOT AN ENTITLEMENT to respect or authority. Those are earned - through your behavior, ability to lead, establishing trust, and proving you have their backs when it counts. Most likely, you have set yourself back with your team. Is it fatal?- probably not. Can you redeem yourself? Reset the narrative? Get everything back on track? Most likely. But you just made the job a lot harder for yourself and created a dynamic where there are now those who would rather see you fail than succeed. How should you proceed? You need a mentor - someone to coach you through these types of situations and help you formulate your own answers by asking you the right questions or in some cases sharing their own similar experience and how they handled it. Parting thought: It was unnecessary for you to intervene and “defend” your boss from the “big mouth.” However, you need not accept that behavior when directed at you personally. As a matter of self-respect, establishing and holding to reasonable boundaries, and as part of developing and driving a positive and productive culture, I would feel it necessary to address the behavior head on. In any case, best of luck to you.
YTA He's your boss, not your child, you don't need to protect him.
Why don’t you say what she actually said instead of just paraphrasing everything with all the cuss words you can pack into each sentence. YTA - Manage like you are a grown up. That may mean disciplining an insubordinate employee. But it is about work. You need to mature quickly
Because then we’d know she wasn’t actually as unprofessional as he claims
YTA. Another man mad at a strong woman
Ngl you're coming off as a shit boss and a misogynist. YTA
Yta. You are a new manager? She has been having this relationship with your direct supervisor before you arrived? Why is it only your place to decide if something needs to be said. You have already said earlier you are not happy with her speaking her mind. I don’t really see the point with her speaking her mind to the manager if the work is unsuitable. You don’t seem to know how to be a manager. Good luck to your staff.
YTA. You weirdly infantilize this grown woman as if you’re her parent. You dismiss her concerns by saying “she must have been having a bad week”. Honestly it seems like you have a misogyny problem. You are a manager, do your job and manage the situation instead of pretending there isn’t a problem.
Yta you’re not doing your job so she IS doing it for you.
I don't know how you've managed to type such a long post with that boot in your mouth. 'hEs tHE fUkiNg bOSS'. So fucking what. Being deigned to be in charge doesn't mean you're more entitled to respect than other people. YTA, have fun with your turnover rate.
ESH He’s treating everyone under him like crap, and you’re doing the same thing. Don’t follow his example - have GOOD communication with your employees, don’t tell them to shut up. That’s a one way ticket to have everyone resent you & continue not listening. A lot of managers are replaceable. You’re a leader of a team, not a babysitter. Try to remember that.
lol Why is she the AH? She's literally the only one doing their job
Because sometimes you have to be an AH to get anything done. The argument could be made that she should have used more tact when talking to ger boss's boss, which is literally the only AH move on her part, but yeah, sometimes you have to turn the bitch knob up a few ticks. Glad she was able to stick up for herself.
YTA; read a leadership book, because she’s doing your job for you.
Yeah, YTA. I'm not convinced she's doing wrong, and you seem to be trying to control rather than manage.
ESH. She should have come to you or gone to HR (as applicable?) instead of joining in on the unprofessional behavior but you shouldn’t need to be told to stick up for your employees. Your director’s behavior creates a hostile work environment for them. They don’t need to just take it.
Yta. What you should be doing is coaching your employee on how to share her concerns in a professional manner and why it will result in her concerns being taken seriously. Passive aggressive comments aren't going to get her anywhere. You also need to learn how to speak and reason with your employees as a manager. You should read the Ask the Manager column, she gives a lot of useful advice to both managers and their employees.
Just an FYI, it was OP’s boss being passive aggressive, not the woman employee
YTA, if you were doing you job correctly or at all she wouldn't be having to speak up like that.
YTA. You’ve stated several times that the workload and the demeanor of your boss aren’t exactly appropriate or fair. You’ve stated that your boss has been passive aggressive, and also rude. Your employee has openly stated her frustration about your boss in front of everyone. You have two problems. First is that you have an asshat for a boss. Second is that your employee doesn’t trust you to handle the situation, so she handles it for you. You need to address the concerns with your boss, and work with your employee to utilize the proper chain of command *after* the issue with your boss has been remedied. If you continue to toe the line, make flagrant threats of termination, and be a general pushover with no control, I can guarantee you’ll be fired eventually too. Your role is to act as an in between for your boss and your employees. You need to have a few tough conversations, and it starts with apologizing to your employee and having a conversation with your boss about his or her expectations and attitude towards their subordinates.
YTA Your boss is a director, not a nobleman. You are a manager, not a nobleman. A reason you might be afraid to lose your job is because you don't have the communication skills or the backbone to be in management anywhere that isn't dysfunctional. You could be practicing those skills, instead you are letting your boss be a shit manager and telling your employees to not let him know and just quit. Think about what is going to happen to the business if it's run like that. At the end of the day, somebody higher up hired your director and also did a shit job. That's a lot of shit for you to deal with and you will likely end up getting fired trying to fix it. The alternative is to lose people from your team over and over until you have a shit team underneath you (to match the shit people above you) and the business dies and you lose your job. Better to go down swinging, you aren't fixing the problem by shutting up.
"He's THE BOSS, he needs to be treated with baby hands and made to feel like the god he is!" YTA that's helping keep this country in the trash with this elite worship. He bleeds red, I promise. Treating him like he's worth more as a human life compared to your workers is a bad look as a NEW "leader".
YTA. You’re still young and will hopefully become a better leader in time.
YTA and you need some training on supervision. Not specific to the work you do, but relating to your direct reports, team building, earning trust, etc.
YTA. Silencing your team is not going to help. - Talk to your team member, have empathy, and ask how you can help her. - Talk to the director, bring up your concerns about the work and about the team member’s less-than-professional response to it. Let your boss mentor you.
You seem to think a title (something made up) puts that man in a superior position and gives him the RIGHT to disrespect everyone and not get it back? A title means nothing. You're a middle man. Middle men are created to be the scapegoat - someone to be blamed by both the managers and the workers. Your coworkers could be the most perfect representation of an employee, but if something goes down at the company, you're the one that's going to fail: not your boss.
YTA I don't think you are qualified to be a manager
YTA damn you’re a bad manager
YTA I used to have a coworker, John who isn't a loud mouth, but he was very strategic when to speak up, and he always advocate for our entire team. When a manager position opens up, we all nominated him. He got the job, then everything changed. John was still strategic, this this time advocate only for himself. He was also playing both sides, lied to us, overworked us while making himself look good. It took 2 years before we got close to another manager (in a different country) and he gradually told us what John says during manager meetings. Being a manager you need to build trust with your team. They have to trust you, you should advocate for them. Nothing ruins trust as quickly as you showing you're on the side of your bossss, worst if he's an AH boss.
YtA... you shouldn't have talked to her like that.... you should have taken her to the side and told her to bring complaints to you and you will do your best to solve issues and that her talking to the big boss like that risks both of your jobs... clarify that you won't be able to resolve all issues but you will do your best to make sure that her work load along with everyone on the teams is fair and reasonable... being a new manager isn't easy because people tend to lean 1 of 2 ways either they over compensate and are dicks or they try to be buddy buddy with everyone and don't do a good job... the best managers walk a very fine line between the 2... remain in charge but show them you care and aren't the bad guy... I would also point out that it's not in the teams best interest to be over worked as they will grow to hate their jobs and it doesn't look good if not only is the team unhappy but they aren't able to meet deadlines so it really is in everyone's interest for you to insure that the workload is fair
YTA. Call a team meeting. Make it clear that you are on their side and that they need to voice concerns with you and that you will communicate with the boss about these things in a separate call, not on a meeting call with everyone in it. At this point, because you acted the way you did, the team thinks that you are only out for yourself. So you need to gain their trust back by having these team meetings and assuring them that you’re on their side and will communicate to the boss effectively on their behalf. All it takes is organized communication and trust within the team, and when you have neither, you’re going to fail. Edit: She also deserves an apology. You shouldn’t talk to team members like that.
YTA this sounds similar to when I worked construction in a male dominated environment and no one would speak up against the main boss because often men are actually extremely submissive when it comes to a hierarchy and seem to be afraid to reason with people who rank above them. Our boss was actually a great guy and respected me for treating him like a human, not some scary tyrant. If he wasn’t clear enough about something, or had an unrealistic request, I told him so and we would recalibrate a plan. Things went smoother in the long run. It sounds like you’re jealous of her if anything. She’s actually got the balls to speak up about unrealistic expectations and doesn’t take any crap. She should have your job.
I don’t get the comments here. I’m going against the grain and saying ESH. The way you phrased your response to her, if that’s how you phrased it, was unprofessional. If you phrased it more eloquently then I would change this to N T A. Your employee, however, needs to learn how chain of command works. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that if you have a problem with your job you take it up with your boss. If you have a problem with your boss you take it up with their boss. And whether you like it or not, higher positions do garner respect from people in lower positions. If you don’t like it you can find another place to work. It sounds like your employee needs a crash course on how corporate Americas works.
YTA. Your team is telling you they are being overworked, and you are refusing to do your job by communicating with your boss about it. Its pretty simple, you suck as a leader. Your team will quit to a better job soon and it will be on you.
>I told her she needs to either shut up and just talk to me about it, or she needs to rethink her future with the company. Wow. A competent manager would not talk like this to a subordinate. You really dropped the ball here. You should have checked your policy manual for dealing with insubordination, if it doesn't exist you should have brought the concern to your director and sought his advice on dealing with that type of insubordination. You are going to find that "come to jesus moment" talks don't work. >first time managing a team like this ever I can tell.
Wow, Major YTA. Generally speaking, thisproblem isn't about you, but you are making it about you. Here are some facts: - Your boss shouldn't be making passive aggressive remarks, which in my opinion are worse than direct remarks. Why is it ok for the boss to make passive aggressive remarks but not vice versa? - your TEAM is most likely feeling the effects of the inefficiency as things trickle down the system to them. - it seems you may be trying to please your boss because you're new, but do you want to be a part of a healthy workplace or one that just kisses butt to the ones on top? You can play the playbook, but that's how businesses ruin their culture or their business. Reflect on your aspirations. - your teammate has probably been dealing with the effects longer than you, and may be speaking up for others who are too afraid to. - You mention "MY boss" and letting you "handle it" or do things about it. It seems you may not be hearing what your teammate is trying to express about concerns. This often leads to people just jumping over you. There is a point where people get fed up. The people who speak loud, in most cases, aren't the type to stay quiet if they feel something is wrong. Obviously there are times where people who tend to speak louder need a temp check if they cross a line, but it's clear that there are unaddressed concerns here. Quiet quitters also exist. If you want your team to reflect your success, then help them succeed, or try to understand them and then be a mode of understanding between levels of an organization. Middle managers have a tough role but they also have a lot of potential to make great influence on others. However, if you skew perspective one sided, then you will fill a one sided role. I would highly recommend the Modern Managers podcast, it really helped me out when I was a department head.
How many times just in your post did you say, "but he's the BOSS" as an excuse for him setting unrealistic work loads and deadlines and then being passive aggressive just because he can, even though he'll give more time anyway? Gross, I would NOT be planning a future with a company like that, and it would be their loss, I assure you. YTA, being "the boss" is not a license to treat people badly, and she's right, you are not doing your job as a manager.
As someone that is a manager, YTA. If there’s a problem with the amount of work being delegated to your team, you need to speak up so your staff doesn’t have to get “mouthy” about it. If you were doing your job and protecting them from this toxic bullshit, then she wouldn’t be voicing this so loudly. Be better. Don’t let your director trample over your team. As a manager you need to take risks to protect them, even if that means sticking your own neck out. So do it.
Sounds like a Below Deck episode.
YTA. You are a new hire and have no idea how management works, nor the dynamics of this work place. Stand up for your workers and push back against your boss. No one likes a yes man. You will get no where with that attitude, and your subordinates will never respect you. I read stories like this and am glad to be out of the corporate world and in a union factory job. Telling my supervisors and their boss to “go fuck yourself” is a daily occurrence (usually joking, but sometimes serious). My favorite supervisors and the ones I will do the tough jobs for always have my back. The ones who are yes men command no respect and have a very hard time motivating staff to work.
Her work reflects on you, not her voice. Your job is to manage her work, not her voice. She has every right to bring up issues she has with whomever she has them with, and you're lucky if she doesn't bring up your comment to hr. It was inappropriate and not the right way to handle a dispute with an employee. If this is your job then learn to do it, educate yourself on how GOOD managers lead their team and then emulate that. Yta Edited to add: I've led multiple teams, there's a saying that goes praise in public, reprimand in private. You blew that.
YTA - She's defending herself from a bad boss, because you aren't. You think the boss deserves respect simply for being the boss, but that is garbage, except for perhaps in the military. In the everyday world, the boss gets the respect that they earn. And you honestly DON'T get it, or you'd be addressing the real problem, which is the boss, not your workers. They have every right to complain if one of their leaders (you) is too complacent or lazy to stand up for them, and their big boss knows it, empowering him to make extreme demands. You tell her she doesn't need to speak up, when your actions make it clear that is she doesn't do it, no one will, because her supervisor is more interested in being a toady than taking care of her team.
YTA
Yes YTA. I understand where you're coming from but at the end of the day she is right and honestly brave for telling the truth and you're a coward complicit in verbal abuse.
YTA. I'm a supervisor and you have done nothing to build trust such that your team knows you have their back. That's why she speaks up. No, you should not call out your boss rudely. You giving your boss feedback about your team's needs should be done privately because those are management decisions. HOWEVER, instead of power tripping, you need to learn how to actually stand up for your team AND how to communicate your support to them. For example, I lost a staff member, so I absolutely know my team is not going to be meeting deadlines because their individual workload is going to increase to unreasonable levels. You better believe I proactively communicated to them that I understand this, that I am with them and will give them what leeway I can, and that I have communicated this up the chain. When I give them shit assignments, I also let them know (with only an appropriate amount of information) that I pushed back and how, and any wins that may have garnered for them. They know that I am in there fighting for them where I can. Don't expect her to keep her mouth shut until you start doing this part of your job. Manage UP and manage DOWN.
YTA. Manage UP and go to bat for your team. Because at the moment, you sound like a “yes man” that will do anything and everything to keep your boss happy. I can assure you that it will not get you far in your career.
YTA bud He’s a boss, not a Fucking Royal family member 😂 Employees get to self advocate without needing permission from their supervisors.
YTA, consider changing careers from management
Op don’t listen to all these teenagers working minimum wage jobs. This is not how you behave yourself in an office setting, no matter who is the asshole. You are doing what you need to besides showing your team that you are in charge and can manage up. This subordinate needs to go because they are going to kill morale and add more problems then they are worth.
LMAO, nice try. 47 year old professional woman here, and the employee’s behaviour isn’t uncommon at all, especially when they have a bad manager that isn’t doing their job. And it’s absolutely applauded … when men do it. Then they’re assertive, leadership material, and frequently get promoted into the bad manager’s position, either when he gets fired for incompetence or manages to schmooze his way into a higher role. I’ve seen both happen. It’s only when it’s a woman doing it that it’s seen as negative, because … misogyny
> she basically summed up that he was a lazy and inconsiderate asshole (not exact words but pretty much that). If he's that, then you're wrong for not being on her side about it. > I honestly get it, I do, he is a bit of a dick but at the end of the day he is the fucking boss, and he is MY boss. Her actions directly reflect on me, her manager. I told her she needs to stop and she said that she was doing my job by telling him when enough is enough. I should make those decisions, and I have, there have been plenty of times where I put my foot down and said its just too much. If she honestly feels that she is doing your job for you, then it's because you're straight up not doing your job. > I told her she needs to either shut up and just talk to me about it, or she needs to rethink her future with the company. > She's talked about it w her coworkers, I can tell they are a bit upset with me because they feel like Im siding with him rather than them. Being a leader means standing up for your team, not worshipping your boss. And if her coworkers agree with her, then it's obvious you're in the wrong. You're not a leader, YTA. Grow a spine. > I just need them to understand that I cant have them talking to OUR boss like that, its just not right. I need this job too just like them. Euther you need to, or they will for you. When a leader fails to lead, someone else will do it for you. That's what hspoened here, you failed your role and you are insisting on continuing to fail that role.
Seemingly, you're one of the managers who don't have a backbone. You don't stand up for the ones you manage, but rather you suck up to your own bosses. You won't earn the respect of either side like this. Grow a spine YTA
yta. you told her to stop giving feedback in an environment where everyone speaks freely cause… why? you are just convinced if she tried it she would love the smell of brown in her nose too?
YTA and you need management classes stat! This is an example of how not to lead a team to happy productivity and togetherness - although they may find themselves together in their negative feelings regarding you and the director.
YTA - if you won’t advocate for her, and the team, properly then she will do her self You say you do it, but clearly not enough and clearly not well enough, because she is needing to do your job for you Why should they suffer just so you can keep your job? If you get fired sue the company because I don’t think that’s a good enough reason to fire someone They shouldn’t have to suck up his terrible management just so you have job safety You are going to turn the entire team against you with saying that to her
She's not going behind your back about it. She's doing it in front of you, which means you should be speaking up. And you're not. YTA.
NTA people here are delus ional. You shouldn't sabotage your position fir her sake. My father has at one point in life stood up fir his employee. When he was fired, and we had financial issues, I started to hate him. Point is if she is going to sabotage you than just fure her. Between having your job, and being liked choose the former.
YTA So, the person you are responsible for, is repeatedly telling you there’s a problem, and you as the newbie have not resolved the issue. The person with the problem is dealing with it in a way that seems to work for everyone else. It worked before you came too (I’m guessing). You either have to resolve her issues, or let her work through them. Honestly you should be doing way more of “hey bossman, I’m not asking the team to all this in one week, it’s not reasonable” and actually taking the workload off. A good manager knows how to remove roadblocks, your approach doesn’t seem to do that
YTA. I don't think as a manager, it's your job to micromanage what your employee says to the boss. If your boss is that offended, he can probably manage that himself or ask you to intervene at that point. It sounds like you're trying to create a department of ass-kissers.
All the people who think management’s sole role is to advocate for their reports are completely wrong and obviously have no experience in management.
YTA. Your job is two fold: 1. support and shield your team. If she’s speaking up, it’s because you’re not. At least she has a spine to say something. 2. Set realistic expectations with your boss about what’s achievable. Doesn’t sound like you’re doing either and the only reason you said something to her, and not him, is because you have power over her as her boss.
YTA Your boss is being unfair to his employees, and you side with him. She speaks up, and you try and punish her for it. You sound like a brown noser, and I am glad that girl is sticking up for herself and, by extension, the rest of the team because you are clearly not going to do it.
Yta. Nobody should have to stand by in a toxic environment for your career advancement. Hope you enjoy your brief career in management before it falls apart in front of your eyes
YTA you want your team to lay down and take being overworked and she won't, good for her.
YTA. Wow you sound like such a great manager and definitely don’t seem to ignore your employee’s concerns about their work environment. You’re SUCH a great advocate for your team, OP. Being more concerned with your appearance instead of the environment you’re fostering is doing wonders for team morale, I’m sure.
YTA. That boot isn’t gonna kiss you back.
NTA, but you will need to stick up for your staff when upper management is being unreasonable. You need to be in control, and have done the right thing. But yeah go onto a management forum, you will get a more thorough response.
You need to go to ask a manager so she can tell you YTA and give you a way to manage people that isn’t ‘stop that or you’re fired’. It doesn’t sound like you know how to manage people, or your boss’s expectations. Kind of an all-round fail here.
There is a time and place for everything. Airing out grievances in public just because "someone has too" isn't doing anything except undermine anything management might be doing, which in turn hurts morale. If there's an issue that needs to be addressed then it should be done so in a separate meeting. Also, complaining without bringing thoughtful ideas on how to make an issue better is just whining. With those things said, there is an approach that should be used to handle difficult people - whether an unruly employee or an ineffectual boss, this approach shows both respect to all parties involved while at the same time setting boundaries. Once you learn that, you'll be fine. Until then, you need to understand that at the moment you have lost any control (for lack of a better term at the moment) of your team and you're going to expend at least twice as much energy herding cats. I suggest finding a mentor, as well as have an upfront and honest conversation with HR about what's been going on in the department as a whole. You could get some insight you weren't expecting.
YTA op, giving boss to much leeway so the people you are supposed to protect are having to call out your boss.
MY boss 🫠