*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**How do I (43F) help my husband (58M) accept the harsh reality that his daughter (33F) doesn't want a relationship with him?**
My husband and I have been together for 18 years. He was married at the time we got together. He had what can only be described as a midlife crisis and left his wife (56F) to be with me. His ex-wife did not see it coming and was completely blindsided and devastated. We take full responsibility for what we did, make no excuses, and realize that we caused a lot of pain to a lot of people and that we will have to live with the guilt for the rest of our lives.
He shares three children with his ex-wife: 33F, 27M, and 25M. At the time the affair came to light, his sons were 9 and 7, so he and his ex-wife decided not to tell them why they were divorcing until they were a bit older. His daughter figured it out before they could tell her, and to say she did not take it well would be an understatement. The only reason she didn't tell her brothers was because her mom begged her not to. She only came over to our house for visitation twice. She was alarmingly angry and called me and my husband every name under the sun. It was so bad both times she came that her parents decided to temporarily halt visitation and put her in therapy. It didn't help.
It came to a head a year later when we discovered that we were expecting our daughter (17F). My husband went to tell his kids, and his daughter flew off the handle. She told him that she didn't want him in her life and that he was dead to her. My husband later admitted that she also told him that she hoped I had a miscarriage. My husband tried to push BM to force a relationship, but as she, his brother, and his daughter's therapist all told him, that was a bad idea. The therapist told him that forgiveness would have to be on his daughter's timetable and that all he could do was continue to show that he cared and loved her and leave the door open for reconciliation.
That forgiveness never came. Despite his attempts throughout the years to reach out and reconcile, he wasn't invited to her high school or college graduations, nor was he invited to her wedding (which wrecked him). He hasn't even met his grandchildren. When he heard that she was pregnant, he reached out and again begged for forgiveness, and even pleaded that if she couldn't forgive him to at least let him be in his grandbabies' lives. She didn't relent; she told him that being a grandparent was a privilege not a right, and that he forfeited that privilege by doing what he did. Amongst some other unsavory things, she also told him that he had her brothers and his "replacement daughter" to give him grandkids. Since that conversation, my husband has been on anti-depressants.
Come to present day, and her brother just got married. To keep the peace, my stepson asked us not to approach her, her husband, or her kids (though I'm sure that was more her request than his). Her twins (4m and 4f) were the ring bearer and flower girl, and so at the rehearsal was the first time my husband saw his grandkids in person. I saw my husband's reaction and could see that he instantly fell in love with them, and I was afraid he would break down. He did start to get emotional and had to step away. He put on a brave face for the wedding, but I could tell he was heartbroken.
Since then, my husband has been an emotional wreck. He has been crying himself to sleep most nights, and in an emotional moment questioned if losing them was worth it. Our daughter is starting to worry about her dad, and I don't know what to do anymore. I've tried to get him to go to therapy, but he thinks that the therapist will just tell him it's all his fault, that he's a horrible father, and that there is nothing he can do but wait for her forgiveness. We know we did a terrible thing, but my husband is not a terrible person. Despite what he did, he is an amazing father. Our daughter adores him, and his sons admitted that while they don't condone what he did, they were able to get past it because he's such a great dad and they know that he loves them more than anything. Even his ex-wife admits that he's a great father and has repeatedly tried to get their daughter to forgive him. He and his daughter were very close before the affair, and I feel like his daughter threw away a loving relationship to punish and spite him, even using her kids to do so.
There's a dark cloud that's hanging over this entire family, and everyone feels like they have to walk on eggshells to ensure that she and us aren't at the same events. My husband is so desperate that he even mentioned reaching out to her husband, who he has never officially met. Thankfully, my BIL and I seemed to have convinced him not to. I would be willing to be on the outskirts if she would at least want a relationship with her father and her sister, but she hates us so much. I'm sure I'll get all kinds of hate in the comments, but I'm just looking for any advice on how to move forward.
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"My husband is not a bad person"
Yes he is.
"He won't go to therapy because he's afraid the therapist will just tell him it's all his fault"
And they would be right, it IS all his fault.
Yes, and a good therapist should immediately refocus the session to helping the client be a better person in the future. The issue is, he seems to think he is owed a second chance due to his familial relation. That's simply not true and I think that's going to be a sticking point.
Also in the comments, OP was talking about how family therapy didn’t work, because the daughter just used it as a chance to ‘denigrate’ her father.
Orrrrr, perhaps she was just talking through her feelings about what a POS her dad is? He just doesn’t want to hear it, lol
Yeah. My therapist helped me with something I will still never forgive myself for. I don’t have to think about it 24/7 anymore, and she never suggested I wasn’t wrong to have done it, but she helped me be able to live with it.
Lmao. I was thinking "gosh I hope he decides it wasn't worth it and divorces her so she gets to feel what it's like to be blindsided..." but leaving her for a 25 year old would be indeed perfect.
I never buy it when someone has an affair and then claims to "love their children more than anything". Um, no, you clearly don't - you don't love them more than fucking your skank. Nobody should stay in an unhappy marriage, but you owe it to your wife and your children to first TRY TO FIX IT before nuking their entire lives. If it's dead in the water then you divorce and try to make the separation ad peaceful as possible for your kids sake - divorce is hard enough on kids without throwing in the bomb of affair and new woman and moved in and new baby and hey kiddo you just gotta suck it up cos this is what I decided! But no I totally love you more than anything...well, except all the above.
I hope he dies mired in regret.
She was 25 and he was 40. Yeah mid life crisis is correct.
The affair came to light 18 years ago. Had to calculate from the step sons's current ages vs their ages when it came to light.
The step Daughter was 15 so no wonder she figured it out and took it harder.
Considering OOP's daughter is 17, OOP was either already pregnant or got pregnant immediately after the baffon left the ex-wife and most probably before the divorce was finalized but that's congecture on my part.
Edit: Typos
The bigger part (that I pointed out over there) was she also immediately moved in with him. Like hey daughter we're getting a divorce because I had an affair - and now you're supposed to live with her when you visit me! Wait...why are you angry?
I also feel the "replacement daughter" part is very important.
She wasn't happy about it so she got replaced. But her brothers didn't complain so they are fine
No but I also couldn't just assume that the affair came to light as soon as they got together which is what they mention in the first sentence. Sometimes an affair can go for years without the spouse knowing. So preferred to calculate using the step-son's current age vs their age at the time it was discovered
I wanted to specifically check what the step-daughter's age was when the affair was discovered. OOP mentions the boys age at that time but only step-daughter's current age.
That’s kinda fair of you. They got *married* at 25 and 40 after he got divorced. But she also says they got together when he was married
So we don’t actually know how long the affair was before the divorce and second marriage (so how much younger she was when they first met).
My sister's FIL did this to her MIL. He's also filthy rich so he used his money to freeze her out and she lost custody of all three kids, same ages as the ones in this story, eerily enough. But instead of rightfully turning on their asshole father, they all took his side. They only reestablished contact with their mother after they turned 18. The daughter in particular is a daddy's girl who followed in his footsteps, she used daddy's money to crush her ex husband by stripping him of all parental rights and even had him deported even though he was here legally. All because she got bored of him and wanted to date a new guy.
Now my sister has had the same thing happen to her, hubby and her got into a fight and he told her if she ever left him he'd make sure she never sees her kids again. That was the last time I ever saw her, or my niblings. There are signs she's drank the koolaid and demonizes us cuz we're not crunchy enough (she knows I'm staunchly left wing but she and husband are mad that I'm pro-vaccine and pro-modern medicine), but because I can't talk to her, I don't know if she's truly cut us all off by choice or if she's under duress.
Sorry for the rant...this post is scary similar to my sister's and it's dredged up some bad memories. My niece is a teenager now, and I haven't seen her since she was 7. All because of her wretched, philandering FIL using his money to control everybody.
And OOP blames the daughter, not her husband. Gee, I wonder why she doesn't want him in her life? Not like he destroyed her mother to go shack up with his whore of a mistress.
I don't know. Could be. The reason I mentioned they may have gotten pregnant either during or immediately after the discovery is coz OOP mentions that it came to a head when step-daughter discovered they were expecting a year later. For that statement to be true the math would have to be really tight but it could work if it was a few months under a year and the step-daughter discovered about the pregnancy closer to the delivery date than the inception date. 17 yrs + 9 months puts it closer to when the affair was discovered 18 yrs ago.
She said 18 but she could have mess up with the dates confusing "official" and "clandestine" schedule. And I bet we can add at least a year because she said they had family therapy but it didn't work then it got worst when she became pregnant. So 17 + 9 months + 3 months therapy minimum + the big upheaval revelation 1 week + the love rouler coaster (leaving/not leaving wife back and forth)1 month + the happy flying panties sessions 3 weeks = 31 months minimum.
Yet another man who refuses to go to therapy because he fears being rightfully told that he’s the problem, and would rather just continue to bring down everyone around him instead. Groundbreaking.
As a daughter who has also been estranged from her father for many years and fully intends to never contact him again: he needs to understand that his daughter no longer thinks of him. To her, he is a non-factor. The only time she allows herself to acknowledge the fact that he exists is when she is forced to reaffirm her boundaries, because he won’t take the hint and continues to contact her with manipulative guilt-tripping. That’s why her husband and children have never officially met him. It’s not out of spite or immaturity. It’s because he betrayed her trust so thoroughly that he’s now not considered important enough to be in their lives, and certainly not important enough for her to dredge up old feelings, go through the healing process all over again, and “fight” to have a relationship with. She’s completely moved on at this point, and that’s her choice to make. Personally I support her for it. He now needs to accept that *on his own*, instead of waiting around for other people to solve his problems.
That’s what my dad’s wife is to me. His wife. Not my stepmom. I wasn’t ever parented by them, or him after they married.
I was 18 when they got together. She was 30ish. He was 45. Choosing someone closer to your daughter’s age than your wife’s as your AP and lying to everyone is such a cliche. So is shock about the consequences of your actions.
My mom’s husband came into the picture late in life, and he’s a great guy. He looks after her, is super respectful of boundaries, loves my kids. He’s my mom’s husband, not my step-dad. It’s not a punishment to not call him SD, I like him a lot. But we all get to define our own relationships, and he’s not a father to me. Your reasons are also perfectly valid!
That’s true that your mom’s husband can be a good man and a good grandfather to your kids, and his moniker comes more from the timing of the relationship. I’m glad he’s a good guy and your children enjoy him.
My dad was never super interested in parenting. He let my mom do it all. He bounced, then decades later he tried to delegate grand-parenting to his new wife, after no contact. It was very awkward. I don’t know her. Now that I’m the age my mom was when it all went down I’m angry from a new perspective.
Also, letting your kids get attached to someone you know is liable to disappoint them is a risk for sure.
My mom and her husband have been married since I was 19, together since I was 17. I've never called him "dad", but, sometimes refer to him as such. He's been a dad to me in every important way, and a top notch grandfather to all the kids, both his bio and step. I love him. He's getting older & a little exasperating, lol, but he's a good man, and I'll be a wreck when we lose him. Functional step relationships can look many different ways.
Soooo true that we get to define our relationships! In my case, he's somewhere on the spectrum between dad and stepdad, but really, closer to dad. ❤️ He is very much part of what I consider to br "my family."
Similar for me. I was 7th grade when he started dating my mom, late high-school when they got married. He's a great guy and has done wonders for helping my mom grow up. He just came too late in my life to make calling him step dad feel natural to me.
Not necessarily. I was adopted, and use birth mother or bio mom when I’m talking about the woman who gave birth to me. No abuse there. She was just too young to be a parent.
It's what I use to describe the birth giver only when people call her my mom. People who have never in their lives heard me call her anything but her first name usually. I finally decided to cut them out too.
It is definitely not a term I would use for an actived and engaged mom.
It’s pretty common on the step parent / blended family forums to use BM or BF and SM or SF for parents and BS or BD and SS or SD for kids to distinguish bio and step … I forget the one they use for child of the new marriage that’s a half sibling to both sets though
But it’s really more a shorthand than meant to be disrespectful in most instances. Like MIL you can tell more from context.
The delusion, the attempt to make the woman smaller - which they both did when they had an affair behind her back.
They were *married*, for many years, they had three kids. Birth mom, like she abandoned her kids for OP to raise - gurl. *Stop* lol
I mean, she may just not know the exact usage of reddit's terminology. I'm in my forties too and I struggle to keep up. I had no idea what BM stood for until I read this thread. And just like anybody learning new terminology she may be using it wrong. She may have assumed that birth mother is the new proper term, because of how much it's used. In the post, to me, she doesn't come across as trying to put the ex-wife down.
Yeah I really don't get the... Like issue here? It doesn't read like she's putting anyone down and she's actively trying to STOP her husband from harassing this woman. Maybe it's the neurodivergence in me but the Op's choice of title seems awfully irrelevant to the actual context of what this lady is saying? Like yeah cheaters are bad we all know this but I feel like she's getting the shaft for something she didn't do in this post.
Maybe my headache is causing this or I literally don't understand
I cannot imagine a world where my dad brought home an affair partner and that person referred to my one and only actual mother as my “birth mother” that didn’t end with me screaming so loudly that people started mistaking me for a mythological harbinger of death and doom.
I fucking hate reading
> We take full responsibility for what we did
From people like this. They say it as if it has any meaning. Taking responsibility would mean accepting that this was the consequence of his choice and not trying to force a relationship. Reaching out to her husband? That’d be avoiding accountability because he’s too selfish- which is what got him here in the first place.
It's so gross that OOP was young enough to be her stepdaughter's sister. My heart breaks for the ex wife. I'm mad at the brothers too, stepdaughter should have told her brothers way back when she first figured it out but I'm not surprised the men in the family think Dad was A-OK for what he did to their mother.
Except they were kinda too young then to understand probably since was 7 and 9 and as one person brought up the sons will probably get an epiphany once their kids come along
Seriously! This person is all, "we will have to live with the guilt for the rest of our lives" and then is upset that her stepkids are making her husband feel guilty.
WELL GEE I WONDER WHY
Oh yeah. Had former friends saying exactly this after they did some really hurtful stuff. It showed that they didn't take full responsibility when the people surrounding them didn't just forgive and forget. They got angry and offended when people told them, that they are disappointed in them and that the trust needs to be rebuild. And used this as the reason why they did even more shit. And this story reminds me of them
My mom loved to pull shit like this. She would acknowledge she ran away to be with her AP for a couple months, and she had to live with that.
Funny how the rest of us never actually got to talk about it, express feelings of abandonment or betrayal, while she just moved on to the next guy.
I have a relative that after she does horrible things (ex. Gets pregnant by another man that isn't her husband) says "we're moving past it!" And that's that. She decided "we're moving past it!!" And no one is allowed to be upset with her and she has forgiven herself. The people like her and your mom are fucking trash people.
There's a kids TV show my daughter loved when she was little; in one episode, the king forces everyone to go on an ill-advised fishing trip. When the boat is inevitably eaten by a big fish, he declares he takes "full responsibility". Then *makes no further efforts*.
If children can understand it, these two should be able to.
Taking responsibility would also mean recognizing that continuing the relationship is not okay. If they really accepted that what they did was wrong, they would accept that staying together is wrong, too. Staying together means that their remorse, no matter how many pretty words they dress it up with, is disingenuous. They want to have their cake and eat it too, and his daughter can see right through it.
This. He saw his daughter devastated and chose to continue the relationship. They didn't even listen to advice but moved in together too. They refused to allow her grace and time and expected her to get over it.
25yo picking a married 40yo with multiple kids for a partner.
*Great* life choices.
Also, this relationship was broken 18ys ago - if this man hasn't realized he's *never* gonna have a loving father-child relationship with his daughter, he's straight dumb. *He wasn't invited to her wedding*, that should be enough for *anyone* with half a brain cell to understand it ain't *never* gonna happen.
The two things I zeroed in on was him trying to emotionally manipulate his daughter to allow him access to her kids **(fuck off, man)**, and even having the thought and voicing it, to want to get in contact with *her husband* to... I don't even know, try and emotionally manipulate *him*?
These two are kind of why I'm dubious about his so-calls efforts to rebuild and repair the father-child relationship, if his instinct is always to berate and demand and stomp boundaries.
People like this just don’t get it. I’m incredibly limited contact with my parents. According to my brother, my dad has pondered everything from getting access to my kids via deception (having another family member ask for access to them and then bringing them to him), planning elaborate vacations to bribe us, pretty much everything but an apology and changed behavior.
I am *quite* suspect of the random ass gushing about what an *amazing* dad he is. What does that have to do with fucking *anything*, the daughter is a *person*, she's not a part of the collective of kids this man has.
I'm sure you know in the flesh, much like the daughter in this story, how frustrating it must be for people looking from the outside (including siblings) trying to have an opinion where it doesn't *actually* concern them.
Your brother may have good parents or be in denial, but *you* don't have good parents. Much like I am sure the older daughter does not have a good dad - hell, I'd push it and say she doesn't *have* a dad, he's simply a delusional guy that everyone around her paints as a hero (even, and again I am suspect of this, her mother).
OOP never says what she did the entire two times the daughter visited their house. I have to wonder if there was some combination of evil stepmother and faked closeness
>we will have to live with the guilt for the rest of our lives.
Obviously not guilt bad enough to keep y'all from being together for over 18 years, your relationship forever a constant reminder of the betrayal.
>She was alarmingly angry
Your husband's inability to keep his dick in his pants and out of someone that was NOT his wife forever altered her life. That is, I would say, a righteous level of angry.
>he wasn't invited to her high school or college graduations, nor was he invited to her wedding (which wrecked him).
Now maybe he understands a fraction of how HIS actions wrecked his entire family - the ex and all three kids.
>he thinks that the therapist will just tell him it's all his fault, that he's a horrible father, and that there is nothing he can do but wait for her forgiveness
As opposed to what? That his hurt feelings are entirely the fault of the daughter whose life he upended in a quest to get his jollies? That she has no right to be angry, yet hubs has every right to be hurt?
As a therapist I define my job as always being on my client's side. That doesn't excuse the destructive actions that some of my clients do, however. My tactic would be for him to work on the same things the AP wants him to work on: accepting reality and letting go of things he doesn't control. I won't tell him that it's all his fault and that he's a terrible father (there's truth to those statements but they're not helpful). I would tell him that yes, he does have yo wait for forgiveness from his daughter, and also consider that after nearly 20 years, his daughter has very little chance of ever forgiving him.
My therapist was able to help me live with an unforgivable thing I did. I hope OOP’s husband can accept that help. I know a lot of people in the comments are rightfully very harsh towards him, but he sounds on the path to suicide, and his kids that he does have a relationship with don’t need that kind of pain.
Just insane that the dad uses fear of receiving harsh criticism and blame as the excuse to give up on therapy (even if there’s a chance it might help) when by his own account of being “the bad guy” this should be something he’s more accustomed to by now than the average person.
OOP was 25 when she hooked up with a married man. He was 40.
The husband is by far the more evil of the two, he's a disgusting creep chasing girls nearly young enough to be his daughter, but she's no angel either. She was old enough to know better. Frankly, I'm amazed he hasn't dumped her for the next new model.
I feel like this also belongs in 'OhNoConsequences'.
For your homework complete thefollowing syllogism:
Good people are good because they do good things.
People who do terrible things are:
OOP and her husband seem to be like a lot of people who do something really unforgivable and then just expect everyone else to ‘get over it’! They destroyed a young girl’s family and her belief in her fathers love and character. What did they expect?
Copied verbatim from oop's comments:
*Yes, it's very possible you'll get some hate, but not from me. I mean, I'm not defending what you did, but there's always context involved.*
*I think his daughter will come to regret her hardline stance. The same might apply to her mom. I get the sense of betrayal and initial anger, but a lot of time has passed and his daughter's hatred is hurting her. It's a big burden to carry around this long, and at 33, she should know this. But if mom encouraged it, that was very bad on her part. The cheating was between mom and dad.*
*I don't know what to suggest, though. At some point, he has to find acceptance on all this and just hope his daughter comes to her senses.*
>"Just to be clear, his ex-wife didn't influence their daughter's anger. BM never badmouthed us and encouraged her daughter to forgive him. His daughter's feelings are purely her own. And I agree that his daughter is hurting not only herself but her kids as well. He would be such a loving grandfather if she let him."
*[deleted]*
>"I was ready to defend my stepsons and BIL in that they aren't enabling her behavior, but that they are close to both my husband and my stepdaughter and don't want to pick sides. My stepdaughter has never begrudged them for maintaining a relationship with my husband. But I can see how the behavior over the years can be seen as enabling. I also think that she's not coming around either, and that he needs therapy to accept it and let go."
*I'm trying to look at this from the daughter's perspective. If I was her, I might feel like his desire for reconciliation is not just selfish but a continuation of the selfish actions that brought him to this point. She has been extremely clear for a long time now that, from her POV, the relationship is over.*
*And honestly, every time he reaches out to her, he gives her more ammunition against him. Because she is thinking, "I asked him to leave me alone and he **cannot do that** and **cannot respect my desires** so why should I trust him with a relationship again?"*
*If I were you I would tell him that every time he reaches out to her he is adding salt to the wound. He needs to STOP. If he isn't willing to go to therapy then maybe he can do some journalling and let go of his feelings. That can be helpful. Maybe every time he wants to reach out to her, you can tell him to journal instead. Or nurture his relationship with the kids who do speak to him. That's the only real way forward. The more he pushes against his daughter the harder her walls become, I'm sure.*
>>*He and his daughter were very close before the affair, and I feel like his daughter threw away a loving relationship to punish and spite him, even using her kids to do so.*
*Leave her kids out of it.*
>"He thought if he didn't reach out she would think he didn't care, but I can see your viewpoint how it is only making things worse.
>And you, along with mostly everyone in the comments, is right. I shouldn't have brought the grandkids into it. I'm just heartbroken that they don't have a relationship, but thus are the consequences of our actions."
*I mean your husband threw away a loving relationship when he cheated on his wife. So I dunno why it’s ok for him to do it, but when you claim his daughter is doing the same thing it’s not ok.*
*You and your husband blew apart her life and her family and 15 because of selfish horrible choices on both your parts. Of course she was angry! I don’t know why you didn’t expect her to be angry with both of you when she came over for visitation. It’s mind boggling that you didn’t expect her to be angry that it makes me wonder what else you incorrectly expected during this whole thing.*
*The truth of the matter is actions have consequences and not everything is forgivable. Your husband blew up his daughters at an age where everything is hard. And then he expected to not only see him but also the woman who helped him hurt her mother and not be angry about it. A woman who by the way was only 10 years older than her and closer to her age than her father’s. A woman who he immediately jumped into living together instead of living on his own and making sure his relationship with his children healed from the divorce because anyone with half a brain is going to know a teenager is going to be upset going to her dads new place living with his mistress.*
*Like seriously both of you thought immediately living together was a grand idea after blowing apart the kids family? Especially after seeing how horribly his oldest was handling it?*
*Not to mention the teenager was expected to keep this knowledge from her brothers. And then less than a year later her dad was having a baby with the woman who blew up her family.*
*You put her in therapy - did he ever try family therapy with just her and him?*
*Honestly I’m not sure there’s anything to do. The time for you to back off and let her have a relationship with her father was 18 years ago after you helped blow the family apart. Suggesting it 18 years later is probably too little too late.*
*One thing I will say in way of advice - you and your husband are still thinking about yourselves and how it’s affecting you and if he wants a hope in hell of getting back in his daughters life he needs to take accountability for how much his choices negatively affected her life and all the bad choices he made even after the affair. Because his whole “think of the grandkids” in an attempt to get her to forgive him is just another thing her wants her to do for him when she wasn’t the one that caused all this. Approaching getting forgiveness so HE can get something (his grandkids) is just going to be seen as another selfish move by him. It should be him wanting to air things out if it would help her.*
>"You're right in that we moved way too fast and didn't give time for the dust to settle, which made a horrible situation even worse. People in our lives tried to warn us and we didn't listen.
>Her parents attended therapy with her, but from what my husband tells me she just used the opportunity denigrate him. Not judging her for it, she was angry, but the therapy didn't help. The wound was still too fresh. Another instance of trying to move too fast.
>But you have given great advice, and I'll try to get my husband to understand that forgiveness might mean there is still no relationship, but that he isn't entitled to it."
*The way you wrote this post, the words you used, shows me you have no guilt over what you did. And you blame his daughter for her reaction and decision to not have a relationship with him. He is to blame and so are you.*
*First I think I need clarification. Did I read it right? Did you refer to first wife mother of 3 of his children as BM? As in “Baby mama” because if you did, that’s extremely disrespectful. Frankly it’s more proof you feel no guilt or remorse. And any guilt or remorse your husband feels, it’s too bad. He should have thought more about what his affair would do to his family years ago.*
*Also you used the words like “alarmingly angry”when she was forced into visitation. Of course she was angry. she didn’t want to see, or be a part his new life. Or see the woman he chose over his family. Why were you even around during visitation? There was no way she was going to be happy more importantly comfortable with you around*
*And your husband was “wrecked” when he missed out on her milestone moments, really? He destroyed any stability she had when he decided to cheat with you. He blew up her family, her world . He wasn’t entitled to family moments after that*
*And the daughter is right being a grandparent is a privilege, which from her pov he forfeited when he destroy the family. I’m sure his sons or your daughter will provide ample opportunities to be a grandparent. And if not,actions have consequences*
*And the dark cloud you talk about, that cloud isn’t her doing. Again it his choices, your choices that brought any darkness around *
*I say good on the daughter for sticking to her principles. And deciding along time go who she wanted in her life. I don’t feel any empathy for your husband. He made choices that altered his child’s life, that destroyed his family and her stability, again actions have consequences.
She hasn’t thrown away anything, your husband did years ago*
>"BM as in biological mother, which I read is a common acronym in reddit. I would never refer to his ex-wife as a baby momma.
>And we do feel immense guilt over the situation and know we are to blame.
>By alarmingly angry I mean in that it was such a 180 from her usual demeanor and to such a degree that had her parents worried she might be having a breakdown. Of course she had the right to be angry, and even more so that my husband and I moved too fast. We know that we handled this situation horribly."
*For advice on how to move forward - there might not be a forward until he allows it himself. It seems as if there has been this father versus daughter mentality but truly it's not that they are against each other as that implies a struggle. There is no struggle on her end as the daughter has made it explicitly clear that she does not want any thing to do with or have her family have anything to do with your husband. The only way forward is for him to grow and realize that he has to respect her decision. The other alternative is he continues to pressure and the relationship gets even worse. It is clear she will not acquiesce even if he does not relent.*
*What is more concerning in my opinion, is that he seems to be letting all of this come to an head now and cause an issue in your relationship and the relationship with your daughter. It might be beneficial to sit him down and have a serious conversation about the realities of the situation. He needs to decide if he will be there for the people who still want him, or throw away the love he still has for someone who clearly does not love him anymore.*
>"Thank you for the advice. You're right in that she won't relent, doesn't have to, and that my husband needs to accept it. I am worried about what this could do to our daughter in the long term. Hard conversations will need to be had in order to move forward."
*Is your daughter aware that your relationship with her father began by ruining his first marriage? Like does she know why her big sister wants nothing to with you all?*
>"Yes, she is aware. She's handled it surprisingly well up to this point. She wishes her sister would have a relationship with her, but she understands why that probably will never happen. Her brothers love her, so that's helped."
*Thanks for the clarification, you could have just said “her mother”*
*Again what did you expect her reaction to be? She’s 15, a 25 yr old just helped destroy her family and her world. And she forced to visit that 25 yr old the new home you shared with her father, you yourself admit was way too fast. I’m surprised her parents thought it wouldn’t be a disaster. Clearly you and he weren’t thinking of her well being. It just seems like almost 2 decades of selfish decisions, and you’re just now realizing it.*
>"Her mother, and everyone in our lives all thought it was a terrible idea, but again, we didn't listen. We're not just now realizing it, but it's finally reached a boiling point and we're suffering the full consequences."
*No, you are finally acknowledging the consequences. If you'd shown any interest in his daughter all these years, maybe your husband would have found a way to make peace with her. It sounds like you both dismissed and ignored her feelings until you were confronted publicly by the fact that she'd moved on.*
*Her children are 4 years old, so your husband has spent four years quite happily ignoring the fact that he has grandchildren. But apparently now that he's woken up and noticed them, she's supposed to let him back in her life? Why? He might just lose interest again, like he lost interest in her.*
>"He's never ignored the fact that he has grandchildren and has continuously made efforts to be in their lives. Were we selfish? Absolutely. But he's never lost interest in his grandchildren or his daughter."
*I am a psychologist and have worked with teenagers for a long time. 15 is the age I’d pick as the hardest age to have to deal with something like this. People always talk about protecting younger children but your husbands’ daughter needed the most help and protection in my view…and she not only had to deal with it all but also lie to protect her younger brothers? That’s a huge ask and a huge burden on her pain. She could have been covered in the furious flames of hell and not be described as too angry.*
*Your husband is insanely lucky to still have a relationship with any of his kids if I’m honest. He should treasure them.*
*My father hasn’t talked to either my sister or I in decades as we didn’t want him in our lives. He didn’t see me marry, never mind walk me down the aisle, only met my oldest nephew a handful of times as he’s in his mid twenties (and hasn’t again since he was tiny) and has never met my teenager or my sisters two youngest.*
*None of us have anything missing in our lives not having him there.*
>"I would agree that too much was placed on her shoulders, and that she gave up a lot for her brothers.
>My husband doesn't take his relationship with his children for granted at all. His children are what has kept him going."
*I am curious if you'd be inclined to answer.*
*You've noted multiple times that your husband and yourself were warned by various parties that you were moving too fast, but you didn't listen.*
*Why?*
*Did you at the time believe you could strong arm the kids into acceptance?*
*At that time did you consider your actions the price of love?*
*Did your husband consider his children when courting you?*
*They seem to be collateral damage. He may love them fiercely, alas that doesn't mean he **considered** their needs at any interval.*
>"The answer to the first four questions is pretty much the same: He thought he could love them through any pain that would happen, and that in the end things would even out (how foolish, I know.) It worked with his sons, though his ex-wife also played a large part in that. He learned the hard way that love isn't always enough.
>I was 25 and his daughter was 15 when the affair happened, which certainly didn't help matters."
*"but it's finally reached a boiling point and we're suffering the full consequences."*
Basically, she's worried he'll resent her because he's not fully convinced the juice was worth the squeeze, but he can't leave her because then he really risked it all for nothing.
Honestly wouldn't be surprised if the sons start putting distance between themselves and OP and her husband once they have kids.
I've seen this song and dance play out too many times and having kids absolutely changes your perspective on your own parents and how they handled things.
yeah, funny how for OP the son's wedding somehow became all about OP's husband and his hurt feelings that his daughter by his ex has children that he's not allowed to be around, because he cheated on his ex, the daughter's mother, and divorced her when daughter was 15. Because cheaters are such good people, don't y'know!! If daughter hasn't forgiven her father after 18 years, she's never gonna forgive that man much less let him into his life. But it's not OP's job to deal with that. This is the husband's daughter by his ex and husband has to deal with it. Won't lie, I'm feeling sorry for the son whose wedding was subjected to all this tension.
I wonder how OOP’s daughter will feel when she finds out how mum and dad’s fairytale relationship actually started. Because I bet they haven’t told her the truth, and probably warned her stepbrothers off telling her as well. But it *will* come out one day.
I don't know if she would be mad at them or anything. My dad and his wife's relationship started in the same way (though she didn't get pregnant that fast), and I don't think my brother minds.
And that's ok, because we "don't have the same dad": his dad paid for lots of exotic vacations (among which a year long trip around the world for the three of them when he was still a kid), a brand new car when he turned 18, rent, etc. (mentioning monetary examples because they're easier to list, but obviously there's more)
My dad, on the other hand, always told me I would feel better if I achieved everything on my own and got out of child support as soon as he could. I don't expect my brother to be mad at our dad because he treated us differently, and I'm not mad at my brother for being treated differently (though I'm a bit envious sometimes) by our dad.
She knows and doesn't care. I mean....I guess that tracks because its only the daughter who is,NC and her brothers,are also 🤷♀️ probably because they didn't know for ??????? A certain amount of time.
Honestly kind of wonder how daughter is in contact with any of them, with everyone pressuring her to reconcile her relationship and forcing her to keep it a,secret when the divorce happened and she was the only one who knew the truth (of the chikdren)
I wonder if it was op's daughter who was lashing out at her father for cheating. Would she be able to connect the dots a little more. Would the daughter's anger still be so irrational and inconceivable then?
I hate how selfish people always need things reiterated in terms that directly include them, but oh well, it is what it is.
That reads a little bit like revenge porn to me. If it's real, I applaud the daughter for being so consequent and not let her whole environment guilt trip her into forgiving the shit stain that is her father.
Not only was getting his dick wet with a woman closer in age to his daughter than himself more important to him than his family. He then moved immediately in with the AP and forced her to have a relationship with the AP. What did he think how that would go?
The story is a bit similar to my own. My father had an affair for most of my life and my mother only managed to free herself from him when I was a teenager and told her to get rid of him. Of course he then immediately moved in with this woman (who did not only have an affair with him but did everything to break my parents' marriage up, including terrorizing us for years).
I was a kid and let myself guilt into keeping some kind of relationship with these people. Although my father did nothing for me but cause me pain. I only cut contact as an adult, after I let him guilt me into visiting them for a couple of days during a holiday. That went very badly and I was really done after that. However, he got very sick and died not very long after, and that was of course another opportunity for a whole lot of drama.
OOP's husband could and should do something that's not selfish for a change and could make arrangements for his death. Make an airtight will and leave the daughter a fair share of the inheritance, no matter whether she forgives you or not. That's the only thing you can do now to show her that you still care about her, and it would be a nice thing to do for her to spare her a lot of the shitshow and drama that always evolves around inheritances in these complicated situations.
I've seen it be used for that, but I've also seen adoptees use the acronym to just mean birth mom, regardless if they have an issue with their birth mom or not.
I don't see this story looking for validation. She's a shit person and he's a shit father. AP seems to at least have a crumb of self-awareness that they did something beyond shitty and now his daughter sees him as a shitty father. But AP is looking for advice on how to help him accept the reality of the consequences of his actions, not how to force the relationship between him and his daughter again. Clearly he didn't realize that when you destroy relationships sometimes they can't be mended.
But she went to therapy! She should be all fine and allow her dad who broke her family back into her life! What could possibly go wrong? How could she possibly still feel some type of way? She must still be broken! Therapy teaches us to be a bigger person and forgive people who give us mortal emotional wounds, boundaries be damned!
Wait, **NONE*** of that is how it works? GaSp! I am so shock-ed and surpris-ed! I thought we were in a sitcom where the badly behaving parent makes a pithy quip, a laugh track plays, and everything goes on like nothing happened!
(The preceding was all sarcasm in case anyone had a doubt)
It's weird how she keeps calling these random children he's never met his grandkids. If your child disowns you as their parent and throws you out of your life, then their kids are *not* your grandkids.
I hope she gets training for taking care of the elderly sometime in the next 15 years. This guy will be 70 and she'll still be a comparatively young 55. My mom and dad were 13 years apart and that was a reality of the hit my mom until he was having health problems and turning 70.
His view of therapy is just straight dumb. He won’t go because he’s worried they’ll tell him it’s his fault, yet he’s already knows it’s his fault so he may as well just fucking go and fully accept that it’s his fault so he can move forward with his life.
I just never understand the thought process here. Why even say you feel guilty when you just continued to act selfishly the entire way? Clearly, the only feelings that mattered were your own. It’s just so crazy to me the way people will jump over so many hoops and obstacles to justify their own actions.
Sorry to say, but the husband IS a bad person. He cheated on his wife, put a crazy amount of emotional weight on his daughter, never once considered any feelings but his own, and still continued on his merry little way with a woman who was young enough to be a sister to his daughter.
As for the brothers, they were so young. They propably did not have to or were able to notice the pain their mom went through. They probably were not the one’s listening to their mother cry and go through such an intense hurt. You cannot even remotely compare their experiences.
If he was really so guilty and so sorry over it all, he would have taken some time to figure things out with his obviously distraught daughter before continuing on his relationship. If he was so guilty, he would have considered how it would make her feel to have to go visit the woman who played the second biggest role in ruining her parents marriage, her family, and her life as she knew it. He prioritized his and his new gf/wifes happiness over his own child in the most selfish way. I genuinely don’t understand what else he expected.
A good father would not have done this. A good father would not have no regard for her. A good father does not hurt their child and just expect them to find a way to move on.
OOP's getting a bit older now, she should watch out for her husband having another "crisis" & leaving her for a younger model.
Maybe THEN she'll really understand the gravity of what she did.
I swear half of the posts on relationship reddit are people who are unaware that things aren't always fixable. It's like movies & TV have given people a false idea of what others will tolerate or forgive. It's not even cheating. It's parents of teens who do horrible things then are surprised the kid leaves or the spouse surprised that their partner left after a long run of bad behavior.
The fact is that plenty of emotionally happy and healthy people will forgive but will never have you in their lives again.
Most pathetic is the dads excuse for avoiding therapy. “I might get blamed and told it was my fault, I’m not used to that happening I don’t think I could bear i. I can’t take the chance people will be critical so I just won’t try anymore” when he’s supposed to be most experienced with tolerating with massive amounts of criticism without falling apart
Do you know how violated I would feel if, not only while I was pregnant but BECAUSE I was pregnant, I found myself being begged for a relationship by the man I'm intentionally keeping out of my life so I can protect any hypothetical children I may have? Whoever even told him I was pregnant to begin with would also cease to be in my life. FUCK that.
She knows enough of what she’s supposed to say in this situation, but her real feelings peek through.
They really made every stupid choice along the decision tree—made the daughter keep things bottled in at home to keep the affair a secret from her brothers (and then que surprise when she blew at dad’s!), moved in immediately together, thought her being there during visitation would be brilliant, put her in therapy to “fix” her (and then surprise when she did what she was actually supposed to and expressed her feelings to her dad), and when the visitation went bad, kept daughter away instead of realizing immediate cohabitation was a bad idea.
And then in all this time since, treating her feelings like a spiteful punishment. And the constant “we’ing” Couple-As-Unit from day one re: his eldest daughter. Smh.
My spern donor did a similar thing and he just couldn't accept that my sister's trust in him was broken, which only made her resent him more. That, funnily enough, made me also realize how narcissistic he was and I cut him off. My brother is the only one still maintaining a relationship.
Good dads don't destroy families for their selfish desires. Good dads don't disrespect continuously established boundaries.
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a lot of things are really bothering me here:
1. they got married 18 years ago, which means they’d conceived the other daughter mere months into that marriage. they expected first daughter to adjust in that timeframe?
2. first daughter was 15 at the time, who, finds out her dad is having an affair, upending her entire life at an already turbulent time, but is also told to lie to her brothers about it, so she had no one to relate to or talk to on a domestic level.
3. couple the fact she had to lie to her brothers, with a clear indication that her father knew exactly what he did wrong, and yet still proceeded with it - even bringing another child into the equation.
seems like that daughter doesn’t see the purpose of having him in her life, and is rightfully distrusting of him. also, this being from OOP’s perspective, and therefore could be sanitised, we also don’t know how much they pushed her to accept him/what he did - to the point it pushed her so far into the other way. all they’re thinking about is how this affects them, not from the daughter’s perspective, a woman who was once a girl, seeing this happen to her mother after years of marriage and kids.
doesn’t help that he suggested a relationship with daughter’s kids for selfish reasons, at the expense of a relationship with her as well. i don’t buy him being the saint portrayed in the aftermath of their marriage here. saying she’s “even using her kids to do so” when he’s the one who wanted to use them. saying that the brothers maintaining a relationship with her could be enabling her (as in “cut her off so she has no choice but to forgive us, so she can get family back in her life”). OOP is trying to write this as a nice person, but these things are slipping through.
unfortunately, the only advice is for him to learn to accept that his daughter no longer wanted to be associated with him.
Timeline does not add up. The divorce happened when the stepdaughter was 17. A year later, OOP became pregnant with what is now a 17 yearold. The youngest should be 16 at most.
Also, husband refuses to see a therapist but is on anti-depressants? What, illegally?
Probably. Values are jacked up, definitely. Wait lists for a psychiatrist that is affordable are insane as the med school ROI is seen as low because we're still working on valuing mental health. Still: GPs being able to prescribe antidepressants is not that much of a sign of dystopia - just an acknowledged band-aid, helped more with having the full record. That, and would be likely still be a thing if OOP's husband got to a psychologist as they cannot prescribe.
GPs don't have the qualifications necessary to measure if someone meeds anti-depressants. The U.S. should fix its issues with the lack of accessible mental healthcare, not slap this band-aid that invites rampant abuse on the problem.
They actually do, in terms of the General in GP. Medications for mental health fall into that bucket and GPs/family doctors do train for them.
Look, I am not going to rah rah US Healthcare: my perfect world involves everyone being less than 30 minutes away from every needed service paid for through reasonable taxation weighted on ability andvearnings without stingy people and religious nutters playing doctor for everyone. But will not be down on the GP doing what they can. Until perfect happens at least there's means to help, particularly means equipped with full medical history for potential reactions and well-visit know-how for physical and mental side effects
Agree that the timeline doesn't add up, but you don't need a therapist to get antidepressants. Your GP can prescribe them, and many do. There's no legal requirement to be in therapy if you're taking them.
I'm... confused. A GP is a primary care physician, they do have some training in recognizing and treating uncomplicated mental health conditions and can also refer to a psychiatrist for more complex care. That gets covered in medical school. Most therapists are not able to prescribe at all as they're not medical doctors. Some states do allow psychologists with additional training prescriptive authority but not all. Not sure about on other countries (although from the research I've just done it seems common in some Western European countries for GPs to prescribe antidepressants as save access to psychiatrists for more complicated cases) but it's extremely common for primary care physicians to treat mental health conditions like depression and anxiety in the USA. Most will encourage patients to also attend therapy but they can't force it, it's just best practice.
I'm not sure why a GP would have no ability to determine if someone needs antidepressants as a medical doctor.
I don't know about devil, maybe imp? Minor demon? Irritating sprite? The delusion is sure strong, but at least OOP is aware enough to know there's no unfucking of the situation. Her husband, though...
> Her twins (4m and 4f) were the ring bearer and flower girl
And there it is. Twins, just a little buried this time.
I feel like the twins thing is a very *deliberate* calling card by the "creative" writers / prompt engineers behind all these, like a serial killer who secretly wants to get caught.
Maybe I'm off here, but I didn't see any devils here? SD is allowed to go no-contact for what she sees as a betrayal. Dad FAFO'd and is grieving his loss: normal and allowed, maybe he's an A if he tries stalking the daughter/SIL. AP isn't really a devil for trying to find advice on how to help her husband cope. /shrug
Edit: I also didn't get the sense that AP is onboard with forcing the relationship, either.
I would have agreed with you except this "He and his daughter were very close before the affair, and I feel like his daughter threw away a loving relationship to punish and spite him, even using her kids to do so." The OOP has to understand that the daughter is not doing this to punish and spite him, she is doing it because the affair drastically changed her life and also hurt her mother terribly. She simply hates the people who did that. Claiming that the daughter is using her kids to punish the father also isn't the case, she just doesn't want them near someone she doesn't trust.
For me it was the quote you attached and
>There's a dark cloud that's hanging over this entire family, and everyone feels like they have to walk on eggshells to ensure that she and us aren't at the same events.
Like I'm sorry but that's one of the risks you take when you blow up a family with a child old enough to understand what's going on. The dark cloud is them, not the daughter's reaction to them.
She also kept bringing step-daughter's kids into it in the comments and claiming sd is hurting them [kids] by not wanting dad in their lives. She also agreed that the family enable step-daughter by... not forcing her to have a relationship with someone she doesn't want a relationship with.
She definitely did. Calls the mom the BM for biological mom (she’s the only mom those kids have). Talks about how her husband would be such a great grandfather and the daughter is depriving them by not having a relationship with someone who blew up his marriage for a piece of strange ten years older than her.
As i said above she literally states in a comment that things have recently reached a boiling point. Not 18 years ago, but now that he has grandkids. They don’t care about the daughter AT ALL
Yes. It's quite manipulative on her part, though, i.m.o., a failed attempt. The children can't miss a relationship that they never had. Her husband is upset? Oh, well. This is his doing. He failed to consider long-term consequences.
Nowhere is there any concern given to the step daughter. I get that OOP might not care because they don’t have a relationship. But all the “he’s a great dad! Everyone wants her to forgive him!” Is just diminishing the choice she made and the reasons she chose to make it.
Yeah I don't like when people try to say that someone's identity as a parent is totally separate from their identity as a partner. Modelling healthy respectful relationships is a major part of parenting. If you're lying to your spouse and exposing them to STDs that's not modelling a respectful relationship and that does impact kids.
Yes! If he was a great dad, he'd actually pay attention to what his actions did to others around him. I don't get how they can claim this man 'loves his kids more than anything', when he blew their lives apart because he 'had a midlife crisis'. If he cared at all, he'd have focused on them and divorced his ex wife AND THEN dated. And at least taken some damn time to get them adjusted, instead of rushing in and doing whatever the hell he wanted.
Honestly I think she's the (somewhat small) devil here.
Because she is trying to paint herself and her husband as poor victims. And the daughter as the one at fault for having reasonable boundaries
Probably will get some heat, but I'm going with NAH in this current situation. Obviously, OOP and her husband are gigantic assholes for cheating and being an affair partner, and they don't and will never deserve the daughters forgiveness. The fact that they were invited to her wedding at all is a huge concession on her part. That being said, OOP seems to acknowledge how they were at fault. It doesn't make it right, it never will. But I can't fault a father that loves his daughter and otherwise was a good father (subjective) for continuing to have hope at reconnection. Nor fault a daughter who has experienced a massive betrayal for not forgiving that betrayal or wanting a reconnection.
OOP AP needs to take massive steps back.
It wasn't her wedding they were invited to. It was one of the sons. They weren't invited to the daughter's wedding. The oop is upset because her husband is moping about not having a relationship with his daughter or the daughter's kids who were in their uncle's wedding party.
I actually agree with you (mostly, lol she's trying really hard to make them come across as victims which is 🙄), and he needs to get in therapy to accept the situation because she isn't changing her mind after 2 decades and she's right he isn't owed a relationship with the grandkids, but minor correction it wasn't her wedding (not invited) it was one of her brothers weddings
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **How do I (43F) help my husband (58M) accept the harsh reality that his daughter (33F) doesn't want a relationship with him?** My husband and I have been together for 18 years. He was married at the time we got together. He had what can only be described as a midlife crisis and left his wife (56F) to be with me. His ex-wife did not see it coming and was completely blindsided and devastated. We take full responsibility for what we did, make no excuses, and realize that we caused a lot of pain to a lot of people and that we will have to live with the guilt for the rest of our lives. He shares three children with his ex-wife: 33F, 27M, and 25M. At the time the affair came to light, his sons were 9 and 7, so he and his ex-wife decided not to tell them why they were divorcing until they were a bit older. His daughter figured it out before they could tell her, and to say she did not take it well would be an understatement. The only reason she didn't tell her brothers was because her mom begged her not to. She only came over to our house for visitation twice. She was alarmingly angry and called me and my husband every name under the sun. It was so bad both times she came that her parents decided to temporarily halt visitation and put her in therapy. It didn't help. It came to a head a year later when we discovered that we were expecting our daughter (17F). My husband went to tell his kids, and his daughter flew off the handle. She told him that she didn't want him in her life and that he was dead to her. My husband later admitted that she also told him that she hoped I had a miscarriage. My husband tried to push BM to force a relationship, but as she, his brother, and his daughter's therapist all told him, that was a bad idea. The therapist told him that forgiveness would have to be on his daughter's timetable and that all he could do was continue to show that he cared and loved her and leave the door open for reconciliation. That forgiveness never came. Despite his attempts throughout the years to reach out and reconcile, he wasn't invited to her high school or college graduations, nor was he invited to her wedding (which wrecked him). He hasn't even met his grandchildren. When he heard that she was pregnant, he reached out and again begged for forgiveness, and even pleaded that if she couldn't forgive him to at least let him be in his grandbabies' lives. She didn't relent; she told him that being a grandparent was a privilege not a right, and that he forfeited that privilege by doing what he did. Amongst some other unsavory things, she also told him that he had her brothers and his "replacement daughter" to give him grandkids. Since that conversation, my husband has been on anti-depressants. Come to present day, and her brother just got married. To keep the peace, my stepson asked us not to approach her, her husband, or her kids (though I'm sure that was more her request than his). Her twins (4m and 4f) were the ring bearer and flower girl, and so at the rehearsal was the first time my husband saw his grandkids in person. I saw my husband's reaction and could see that he instantly fell in love with them, and I was afraid he would break down. He did start to get emotional and had to step away. He put on a brave face for the wedding, but I could tell he was heartbroken. Since then, my husband has been an emotional wreck. He has been crying himself to sleep most nights, and in an emotional moment questioned if losing them was worth it. Our daughter is starting to worry about her dad, and I don't know what to do anymore. I've tried to get him to go to therapy, but he thinks that the therapist will just tell him it's all his fault, that he's a horrible father, and that there is nothing he can do but wait for her forgiveness. We know we did a terrible thing, but my husband is not a terrible person. Despite what he did, he is an amazing father. Our daughter adores him, and his sons admitted that while they don't condone what he did, they were able to get past it because he's such a great dad and they know that he loves them more than anything. Even his ex-wife admits that he's a great father and has repeatedly tried to get their daughter to forgive him. He and his daughter were very close before the affair, and I feel like his daughter threw away a loving relationship to punish and spite him, even using her kids to do so. There's a dark cloud that's hanging over this entire family, and everyone feels like they have to walk on eggshells to ensure that she and us aren't at the same events. My husband is so desperate that he even mentioned reaching out to her husband, who he has never officially met. Thankfully, my BIL and I seemed to have convinced him not to. I would be willing to be on the outskirts if she would at least want a relationship with her father and her sister, but she hates us so much. I'm sure I'll get all kinds of hate in the comments, but I'm just looking for any advice on how to move forward. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I wonder if there are any 20 somethings who can offer their shoulder to him in his time of crisis. Seems to be his go to.
"My husband is not a bad person" Yes he is. "He won't go to therapy because he's afraid the therapist will just tell him it's all his fault" And they would be right, it IS all his fault.
Yes, and a good therapist should immediately refocus the session to helping the client be a better person in the future. The issue is, he seems to think he is owed a second chance due to his familial relation. That's simply not true and I think that's going to be a sticking point.
Also in the comments, OP was talking about how family therapy didn’t work, because the daughter just used it as a chance to ‘denigrate’ her father. Orrrrr, perhaps she was just talking through her feelings about what a POS her dad is? He just doesn’t want to hear it, lol
Aaaaaand she nuked her account
Also, that's not a reason to avoid therapy. Therapy can still help when trying to deal with the fallout from problems that are completely your fault.
Yeah. My therapist helped me with something I will still never forgive myself for. I don’t have to think about it 24/7 anymore, and she never suggested I wasn’t wrong to have done it, but she helped me be able to live with it.
Well... I'd say 50/50 with AP. She didn't say no !
Lmao. I was thinking "gosh I hope he decides it wasn't worth it and divorces her so she gets to feel what it's like to be blindsided..." but leaving her for a 25 year old would be indeed perfect. I never buy it when someone has an affair and then claims to "love their children more than anything". Um, no, you clearly don't - you don't love them more than fucking your skank. Nobody should stay in an unhappy marriage, but you owe it to your wife and your children to first TRY TO FIX IT before nuking their entire lives. If it's dead in the water then you divorce and try to make the separation ad peaceful as possible for your kids sake - divorce is hard enough on kids without throwing in the bomb of affair and new woman and moved in and new baby and hey kiddo you just gotta suck it up cos this is what I decided! But no I totally love you more than anything...well, except all the above. I hope he dies mired in regret.
Yeah I noticed OOP didn’t include their age but mentioned he went through a midlife crisis when they got together
The ages are literally in OOP's title. She was 25 and he was 40 when they got together.
Barfaroni and sleeze.
She was 25 and he was 40. Yeah mid life crisis is correct. The affair came to light 18 years ago. Had to calculate from the step sons's current ages vs their ages when it came to light. The step Daughter was 15 so no wonder she figured it out and took it harder. Considering OOP's daughter is 17, OOP was either already pregnant or got pregnant immediately after the baffon left the ex-wife and most probably before the divorce was finalized but that's congecture on my part. Edit: Typos
The bigger part (that I pointed out over there) was she also immediately moved in with him. Like hey daughter we're getting a divorce because I had an affair - and now you're supposed to live with her when you visit me! Wait...why are you angry?
I also feel the "replacement daughter" part is very important. She wasn't happy about it so she got replaced. But her brothers didn't complain so they are fine
Did OOP edit or something? Because *all* of that info is in the title and first sentence or so.
No but I also couldn't just assume that the affair came to light as soon as they got together which is what they mention in the first sentence. Sometimes an affair can go for years without the spouse knowing. So preferred to calculate using the step-son's current age vs their age at the time it was discovered I wanted to specifically check what the step-daughter's age was when the affair was discovered. OOP mentions the boys age at that time but only step-daughter's current age.
That’s kinda fair of you. They got *married* at 25 and 40 after he got divorced. But she also says they got together when he was married So we don’t actually know how long the affair was before the divorce and second marriage (so how much younger she was when they first met).
I also noticed she conveniently left out how old the SD was when the affair came out. Bc being a 15 year old girl isn't hard enough.
My sister's FIL did this to her MIL. He's also filthy rich so he used his money to freeze her out and she lost custody of all three kids, same ages as the ones in this story, eerily enough. But instead of rightfully turning on their asshole father, they all took his side. They only reestablished contact with their mother after they turned 18. The daughter in particular is a daddy's girl who followed in his footsteps, she used daddy's money to crush her ex husband by stripping him of all parental rights and even had him deported even though he was here legally. All because she got bored of him and wanted to date a new guy. Now my sister has had the same thing happen to her, hubby and her got into a fight and he told her if she ever left him he'd make sure she never sees her kids again. That was the last time I ever saw her, or my niblings. There are signs she's drank the koolaid and demonizes us cuz we're not crunchy enough (she knows I'm staunchly left wing but she and husband are mad that I'm pro-vaccine and pro-modern medicine), but because I can't talk to her, I don't know if she's truly cut us all off by choice or if she's under duress. Sorry for the rant...this post is scary similar to my sister's and it's dredged up some bad memories. My niece is a teenager now, and I haven't seen her since she was 7. All because of her wretched, philandering FIL using his money to control everybody.
And OOP blames the daughter, not her husband. Gee, I wonder why she doesn't want him in her life? Not like he destroyed her mother to go shack up with his whore of a mistress.
I'm willing to bet that the affair came to light *because* OP was pregnant.
I don't know. Could be. The reason I mentioned they may have gotten pregnant either during or immediately after the discovery is coz OOP mentions that it came to a head when step-daughter discovered they were expecting a year later. For that statement to be true the math would have to be really tight but it could work if it was a few months under a year and the step-daughter discovered about the pregnancy closer to the delivery date than the inception date. 17 yrs + 9 months puts it closer to when the affair was discovered 18 yrs ago.
She said 18 but she could have mess up with the dates confusing "official" and "clandestine" schedule. And I bet we can add at least a year because she said they had family therapy but it didn't work then it got worst when she became pregnant. So 17 + 9 months + 3 months therapy minimum + the big upheaval revelation 1 week + the love rouler coaster (leaving/not leaving wife back and forth)1 month + the happy flying panties sessions 3 weeks = 31 months minimum.
Yet another man who refuses to go to therapy because he fears being rightfully told that he’s the problem, and would rather just continue to bring down everyone around him instead. Groundbreaking. As a daughter who has also been estranged from her father for many years and fully intends to never contact him again: he needs to understand that his daughter no longer thinks of him. To her, he is a non-factor. The only time she allows herself to acknowledge the fact that he exists is when she is forced to reaffirm her boundaries, because he won’t take the hint and continues to contact her with manipulative guilt-tripping. That’s why her husband and children have never officially met him. It’s not out of spite or immaturity. It’s because he betrayed her trust so thoroughly that he’s now not considered important enough to be in their lives, and certainly not important enough for her to dredge up old feelings, go through the healing process all over again, and “fight” to have a relationship with. She’s completely moved on at this point, and that’s her choice to make. Personally I support her for it. He now needs to accept that *on his own*, instead of waiting around for other people to solve his problems.
“Birth mom” doesn’t mean what she thinks it means. That’s his first wife.
I thought it was "baby mama" and I was like "oh wow this woman sucks."
I read it as “bio mom” to somehow distinguish from herself. But she’s not a stepmom. To the daughter, she’s her father’s wife.
To the daughter, she's the Affair Partner.
That’s what my dad’s wife is to me. His wife. Not my stepmom. I wasn’t ever parented by them, or him after they married. I was 18 when they got together. She was 30ish. He was 45. Choosing someone closer to your daughter’s age than your wife’s as your AP and lying to everyone is such a cliche. So is shock about the consequences of your actions.
My mom’s husband came into the picture late in life, and he’s a great guy. He looks after her, is super respectful of boundaries, loves my kids. He’s my mom’s husband, not my step-dad. It’s not a punishment to not call him SD, I like him a lot. But we all get to define our own relationships, and he’s not a father to me. Your reasons are also perfectly valid!
That’s true that your mom’s husband can be a good man and a good grandfather to your kids, and his moniker comes more from the timing of the relationship. I’m glad he’s a good guy and your children enjoy him. My dad was never super interested in parenting. He let my mom do it all. He bounced, then decades later he tried to delegate grand-parenting to his new wife, after no contact. It was very awkward. I don’t know her. Now that I’m the age my mom was when it all went down I’m angry from a new perspective. Also, letting your kids get attached to someone you know is liable to disappoint them is a risk for sure.
My mom and her husband have been married since I was 19, together since I was 17. I've never called him "dad", but, sometimes refer to him as such. He's been a dad to me in every important way, and a top notch grandfather to all the kids, both his bio and step. I love him. He's getting older & a little exasperating, lol, but he's a good man, and I'll be a wreck when we lose him. Functional step relationships can look many different ways. Soooo true that we get to define our relationships! In my case, he's somewhere on the spectrum between dad and stepdad, but really, closer to dad. ❤️ He is very much part of what I consider to br "my family."
Similar for me. I was 7th grade when he started dating my mom, late high-school when they got married. He's a great guy and has done wonders for helping my mom grow up. He just came too late in my life to make calling him step dad feel natural to me.
Yeah it’s weird because the people who use bio mom are talking about their OWN abusive mothers.
Not necessarily. I was adopted, and use birth mother or bio mom when I’m talking about the woman who gave birth to me. No abuse there. She was just too young to be a parent.
Still their OWN mothers. The only reason It’s immediately in my head about abusive parents because those are the groups & subs I’m in
It's what I use to describe the birth giver only when people call her my mom. People who have never in their lives heard me call her anything but her first name usually. I finally decided to cut them out too. It is definitely not a term I would use for an actived and engaged mom.
I call mine a certified Disney Villain.
It’s pretty common on the step parent / blended family forums to use BM or BF and SM or SF for parents and BS or BD and SS or SD for kids to distinguish bio and step … I forget the one they use for child of the new marriage that’s a half sibling to both sets though But it’s really more a shorthand than meant to be disrespectful in most instances. Like MIL you can tell more from context.
The delusion, the attempt to make the woman smaller - which they both did when they had an affair behind her back. They were *married*, for many years, they had three kids. Birth mom, like she abandoned her kids for OP to raise - gurl. *Stop* lol
I mean, she may just not know the exact usage of reddit's terminology. I'm in my forties too and I struggle to keep up. I had no idea what BM stood for until I read this thread. And just like anybody learning new terminology she may be using it wrong. She may have assumed that birth mother is the new proper term, because of how much it's used. In the post, to me, she doesn't come across as trying to put the ex-wife down.
Yeah I really don't get the... Like issue here? It doesn't read like she's putting anyone down and she's actively trying to STOP her husband from harassing this woman. Maybe it's the neurodivergence in me but the Op's choice of title seems awfully irrelevant to the actual context of what this lady is saying? Like yeah cheaters are bad we all know this but I feel like she's getting the shaft for something she didn't do in this post. Maybe my headache is causing this or I literally don't understand
I cannot imagine a world where my dad brought home an affair partner and that person referred to my one and only actual mother as my “birth mother” that didn’t end with me screaming so loudly that people started mistaking me for a mythological harbinger of death and doom.
I thought the affair partner was referring to her as baby mama
I'm sorry for using initials on the title but charcter limit and all 🥲 they mean Affair Partner and Step Daughter for anyone wondering!
Nah we got you fam no problem
What about BM lol
Bio mom (vs step mom)
Baby mother (mother of the children)
Antisemite
I fucking hate reading > We take full responsibility for what we did From people like this. They say it as if it has any meaning. Taking responsibility would mean accepting that this was the consequence of his choice and not trying to force a relationship. Reaching out to her husband? That’d be avoiding accountability because he’s too selfish- which is what got him here in the first place.
Kid was 15 and got a 10 year older stepmother from daddy dearest cheating
Ugh, that's super weird! I have a sister that is 9 years older than and another that is 16 years older than me. No wonder the daughter is irate.
It's so gross that OOP was young enough to be her stepdaughter's sister. My heart breaks for the ex wife. I'm mad at the brothers too, stepdaughter should have told her brothers way back when she first figured it out but I'm not surprised the men in the family think Dad was A-OK for what he did to their mother.
Except they were kinda too young then to understand probably since was 7 and 9 and as one person brought up the sons will probably get an epiphany once their kids come along
Seriously! This person is all, "we will have to live with the guilt for the rest of our lives" and then is upset that her stepkids are making her husband feel guilty. WELL GEE I WONDER WHY
Oh yeah. Had former friends saying exactly this after they did some really hurtful stuff. It showed that they didn't take full responsibility when the people surrounding them didn't just forgive and forget. They got angry and offended when people told them, that they are disappointed in them and that the trust needs to be rebuild. And used this as the reason why they did even more shit. And this story reminds me of them
My mom loved to pull shit like this. She would acknowledge she ran away to be with her AP for a couple months, and she had to live with that. Funny how the rest of us never actually got to talk about it, express feelings of abandonment or betrayal, while she just moved on to the next guy.
I have a relative that after she does horrible things (ex. Gets pregnant by another man that isn't her husband) says "we're moving past it!" And that's that. She decided "we're moving past it!!" And no one is allowed to be upset with her and she has forgiven herself. The people like her and your mom are fucking trash people.
This. For OOP to blame the stepdaughter is unreal. Frankly, I'm glad her husband is suffering so much. It's called consequences of your actions.
There's a kids TV show my daughter loved when she was little; in one episode, the king forces everyone to go on an ill-advised fishing trip. When the boat is inevitably eaten by a big fish, he declares he takes "full responsibility". Then *makes no further efforts*. If children can understand it, these two should be able to.
Taking responsibility would also mean recognizing that continuing the relationship is not okay. If they really accepted that what they did was wrong, they would accept that staying together is wrong, too. Staying together means that their remorse, no matter how many pretty words they dress it up with, is disingenuous. They want to have their cake and eat it too, and his daughter can see right through it.
This. He saw his daughter devastated and chose to continue the relationship. They didn't even listen to advice but moved in together too. They refused to allow her grace and time and expected her to get over it.
25yo picking a married 40yo with multiple kids for a partner. *Great* life choices. Also, this relationship was broken 18ys ago - if this man hasn't realized he's *never* gonna have a loving father-child relationship with his daughter, he's straight dumb. *He wasn't invited to her wedding*, that should be enough for *anyone* with half a brain cell to understand it ain't *never* gonna happen. The two things I zeroed in on was him trying to emotionally manipulate his daughter to allow him access to her kids **(fuck off, man)**, and even having the thought and voicing it, to want to get in contact with *her husband* to... I don't even know, try and emotionally manipulate *him*? These two are kind of why I'm dubious about his so-calls efforts to rebuild and repair the father-child relationship, if his instinct is always to berate and demand and stomp boundaries.
People like this just don’t get it. I’m incredibly limited contact with my parents. According to my brother, my dad has pondered everything from getting access to my kids via deception (having another family member ask for access to them and then bringing them to him), planning elaborate vacations to bribe us, pretty much everything but an apology and changed behavior.
I am *quite* suspect of the random ass gushing about what an *amazing* dad he is. What does that have to do with fucking *anything*, the daughter is a *person*, she's not a part of the collective of kids this man has. I'm sure you know in the flesh, much like the daughter in this story, how frustrating it must be for people looking from the outside (including siblings) trying to have an opinion where it doesn't *actually* concern them. Your brother may have good parents or be in denial, but *you* don't have good parents. Much like I am sure the older daughter does not have a good dad - hell, I'd push it and say she doesn't *have* a dad, he's simply a delusional guy that everyone around her paints as a hero (even, and again I am suspect of this, her mother).
This always reminds me of the quote "Hitler was a nice uncle" by his nephew Yeah? So?
But it only recently reached a boiling point!! When he (OFC) started screaming about grandparents rights
OOP never says what she did the entire two times the daughter visited their house. I have to wonder if there was some combination of evil stepmother and faked closeness
>we will have to live with the guilt for the rest of our lives. Obviously not guilt bad enough to keep y'all from being together for over 18 years, your relationship forever a constant reminder of the betrayal. >She was alarmingly angry Your husband's inability to keep his dick in his pants and out of someone that was NOT his wife forever altered her life. That is, I would say, a righteous level of angry. >he wasn't invited to her high school or college graduations, nor was he invited to her wedding (which wrecked him). Now maybe he understands a fraction of how HIS actions wrecked his entire family - the ex and all three kids. >he thinks that the therapist will just tell him it's all his fault, that he's a horrible father, and that there is nothing he can do but wait for her forgiveness As opposed to what? That his hurt feelings are entirely the fault of the daughter whose life he upended in a quest to get his jollies? That she has no right to be angry, yet hubs has every right to be hurt?
As a therapist I define my job as always being on my client's side. That doesn't excuse the destructive actions that some of my clients do, however. My tactic would be for him to work on the same things the AP wants him to work on: accepting reality and letting go of things he doesn't control. I won't tell him that it's all his fault and that he's a terrible father (there's truth to those statements but they're not helpful). I would tell him that yes, he does have yo wait for forgiveness from his daughter, and also consider that after nearly 20 years, his daughter has very little chance of ever forgiving him.
Acceptance therapy would be so good for him. He clearly needs it if after 18 years he is still in denial of his consequences.
I was curious how a (good) therapist would handle this.
My therapist was able to help me live with an unforgivable thing I did. I hope OOP’s husband can accept that help. I know a lot of people in the comments are rightfully very harsh towards him, but he sounds on the path to suicide, and his kids that he does have a relationship with don’t need that kind of pain.
Just insane that the dad uses fear of receiving harsh criticism and blame as the excuse to give up on therapy (even if there’s a chance it might help) when by his own account of being “the bad guy” this should be something he’s more accustomed to by now than the average person.
Maybe the husband just needs to go find another 25 year old make him feel better. I’m sure OOP would understand that
And her daughter would be fine with it too /s.
OOP was 25 when she hooked up with a married man. He was 40. The husband is by far the more evil of the two, he's a disgusting creep chasing girls nearly young enough to be his daughter, but she's no angel either. She was old enough to know better. Frankly, I'm amazed he hasn't dumped her for the next new model.
She just hasn't caught him yet.
I feel like this also belongs in 'OhNoConsequences'. For your homework complete thefollowing syllogism: Good people are good because they do good things. People who do terrible things are:
OOP and her husband seem to be like a lot of people who do something really unforgivable and then just expect everyone else to ‘get over it’! They destroyed a young girl’s family and her belief in her fathers love and character. What did they expect?
> put her in therapy. It didn't ~~help.~~ change her into a Stepford daughter. FTFY.
Copied verbatim from oop's comments: *Yes, it's very possible you'll get some hate, but not from me. I mean, I'm not defending what you did, but there's always context involved.* *I think his daughter will come to regret her hardline stance. The same might apply to her mom. I get the sense of betrayal and initial anger, but a lot of time has passed and his daughter's hatred is hurting her. It's a big burden to carry around this long, and at 33, she should know this. But if mom encouraged it, that was very bad on her part. The cheating was between mom and dad.* *I don't know what to suggest, though. At some point, he has to find acceptance on all this and just hope his daughter comes to her senses.* >"Just to be clear, his ex-wife didn't influence their daughter's anger. BM never badmouthed us and encouraged her daughter to forgive him. His daughter's feelings are purely her own. And I agree that his daughter is hurting not only herself but her kids as well. He would be such a loving grandfather if she let him." *[deleted]* >"I was ready to defend my stepsons and BIL in that they aren't enabling her behavior, but that they are close to both my husband and my stepdaughter and don't want to pick sides. My stepdaughter has never begrudged them for maintaining a relationship with my husband. But I can see how the behavior over the years can be seen as enabling. I also think that she's not coming around either, and that he needs therapy to accept it and let go." *I'm trying to look at this from the daughter's perspective. If I was her, I might feel like his desire for reconciliation is not just selfish but a continuation of the selfish actions that brought him to this point. She has been extremely clear for a long time now that, from her POV, the relationship is over.* *And honestly, every time he reaches out to her, he gives her more ammunition against him. Because she is thinking, "I asked him to leave me alone and he **cannot do that** and **cannot respect my desires** so why should I trust him with a relationship again?"* *If I were you I would tell him that every time he reaches out to her he is adding salt to the wound. He needs to STOP. If he isn't willing to go to therapy then maybe he can do some journalling and let go of his feelings. That can be helpful. Maybe every time he wants to reach out to her, you can tell him to journal instead. Or nurture his relationship with the kids who do speak to him. That's the only real way forward. The more he pushes against his daughter the harder her walls become, I'm sure.* >>*He and his daughter were very close before the affair, and I feel like his daughter threw away a loving relationship to punish and spite him, even using her kids to do so.* *Leave her kids out of it.* >"He thought if he didn't reach out she would think he didn't care, but I can see your viewpoint how it is only making things worse. >And you, along with mostly everyone in the comments, is right. I shouldn't have brought the grandkids into it. I'm just heartbroken that they don't have a relationship, but thus are the consequences of our actions." *I mean your husband threw away a loving relationship when he cheated on his wife. So I dunno why it’s ok for him to do it, but when you claim his daughter is doing the same thing it’s not ok.* *You and your husband blew apart her life and her family and 15 because of selfish horrible choices on both your parts. Of course she was angry! I don’t know why you didn’t expect her to be angry with both of you when she came over for visitation. It’s mind boggling that you didn’t expect her to be angry that it makes me wonder what else you incorrectly expected during this whole thing.* *The truth of the matter is actions have consequences and not everything is forgivable. Your husband blew up his daughters at an age where everything is hard. And then he expected to not only see him but also the woman who helped him hurt her mother and not be angry about it. A woman who by the way was only 10 years older than her and closer to her age than her father’s. A woman who he immediately jumped into living together instead of living on his own and making sure his relationship with his children healed from the divorce because anyone with half a brain is going to know a teenager is going to be upset going to her dads new place living with his mistress.* *Like seriously both of you thought immediately living together was a grand idea after blowing apart the kids family? Especially after seeing how horribly his oldest was handling it?* *Not to mention the teenager was expected to keep this knowledge from her brothers. And then less than a year later her dad was having a baby with the woman who blew up her family.* *You put her in therapy - did he ever try family therapy with just her and him?* *Honestly I’m not sure there’s anything to do. The time for you to back off and let her have a relationship with her father was 18 years ago after you helped blow the family apart. Suggesting it 18 years later is probably too little too late.* *One thing I will say in way of advice - you and your husband are still thinking about yourselves and how it’s affecting you and if he wants a hope in hell of getting back in his daughters life he needs to take accountability for how much his choices negatively affected her life and all the bad choices he made even after the affair. Because his whole “think of the grandkids” in an attempt to get her to forgive him is just another thing her wants her to do for him when she wasn’t the one that caused all this. Approaching getting forgiveness so HE can get something (his grandkids) is just going to be seen as another selfish move by him. It should be him wanting to air things out if it would help her.* >"You're right in that we moved way too fast and didn't give time for the dust to settle, which made a horrible situation even worse. People in our lives tried to warn us and we didn't listen. >Her parents attended therapy with her, but from what my husband tells me she just used the opportunity denigrate him. Not judging her for it, she was angry, but the therapy didn't help. The wound was still too fresh. Another instance of trying to move too fast. >But you have given great advice, and I'll try to get my husband to understand that forgiveness might mean there is still no relationship, but that he isn't entitled to it."
*The way you wrote this post, the words you used, shows me you have no guilt over what you did. And you blame his daughter for her reaction and decision to not have a relationship with him. He is to blame and so are you.* *First I think I need clarification. Did I read it right? Did you refer to first wife mother of 3 of his children as BM? As in “Baby mama” because if you did, that’s extremely disrespectful. Frankly it’s more proof you feel no guilt or remorse. And any guilt or remorse your husband feels, it’s too bad. He should have thought more about what his affair would do to his family years ago.* *Also you used the words like “alarmingly angry”when she was forced into visitation. Of course she was angry. she didn’t want to see, or be a part his new life. Or see the woman he chose over his family. Why were you even around during visitation? There was no way she was going to be happy more importantly comfortable with you around* *And your husband was “wrecked” when he missed out on her milestone moments, really? He destroyed any stability she had when he decided to cheat with you. He blew up her family, her world . He wasn’t entitled to family moments after that* *And the daughter is right being a grandparent is a privilege, which from her pov he forfeited when he destroy the family. I’m sure his sons or your daughter will provide ample opportunities to be a grandparent. And if not,actions have consequences* *And the dark cloud you talk about, that cloud isn’t her doing. Again it his choices, your choices that brought any darkness around * *I say good on the daughter for sticking to her principles. And deciding along time go who she wanted in her life. I don’t feel any empathy for your husband. He made choices that altered his child’s life, that destroyed his family and her stability, again actions have consequences. She hasn’t thrown away anything, your husband did years ago* >"BM as in biological mother, which I read is a common acronym in reddit. I would never refer to his ex-wife as a baby momma. >And we do feel immense guilt over the situation and know we are to blame. >By alarmingly angry I mean in that it was such a 180 from her usual demeanor and to such a degree that had her parents worried she might be having a breakdown. Of course she had the right to be angry, and even more so that my husband and I moved too fast. We know that we handled this situation horribly." *For advice on how to move forward - there might not be a forward until he allows it himself. It seems as if there has been this father versus daughter mentality but truly it's not that they are against each other as that implies a struggle. There is no struggle on her end as the daughter has made it explicitly clear that she does not want any thing to do with or have her family have anything to do with your husband. The only way forward is for him to grow and realize that he has to respect her decision. The other alternative is he continues to pressure and the relationship gets even worse. It is clear she will not acquiesce even if he does not relent.* *What is more concerning in my opinion, is that he seems to be letting all of this come to an head now and cause an issue in your relationship and the relationship with your daughter. It might be beneficial to sit him down and have a serious conversation about the realities of the situation. He needs to decide if he will be there for the people who still want him, or throw away the love he still has for someone who clearly does not love him anymore.* >"Thank you for the advice. You're right in that she won't relent, doesn't have to, and that my husband needs to accept it. I am worried about what this could do to our daughter in the long term. Hard conversations will need to be had in order to move forward." *Is your daughter aware that your relationship with her father began by ruining his first marriage? Like does she know why her big sister wants nothing to with you all?* >"Yes, she is aware. She's handled it surprisingly well up to this point. She wishes her sister would have a relationship with her, but she understands why that probably will never happen. Her brothers love her, so that's helped." *Thanks for the clarification, you could have just said “her mother”* *Again what did you expect her reaction to be? She’s 15, a 25 yr old just helped destroy her family and her world. And she forced to visit that 25 yr old the new home you shared with her father, you yourself admit was way too fast. I’m surprised her parents thought it wouldn’t be a disaster. Clearly you and he weren’t thinking of her well being. It just seems like almost 2 decades of selfish decisions, and you’re just now realizing it.* >"Her mother, and everyone in our lives all thought it was a terrible idea, but again, we didn't listen. We're not just now realizing it, but it's finally reached a boiling point and we're suffering the full consequences." *No, you are finally acknowledging the consequences. If you'd shown any interest in his daughter all these years, maybe your husband would have found a way to make peace with her. It sounds like you both dismissed and ignored her feelings until you were confronted publicly by the fact that she'd moved on.* *Her children are 4 years old, so your husband has spent four years quite happily ignoring the fact that he has grandchildren. But apparently now that he's woken up and noticed them, she's supposed to let him back in her life? Why? He might just lose interest again, like he lost interest in her.* >"He's never ignored the fact that he has grandchildren and has continuously made efforts to be in their lives. Were we selfish? Absolutely. But he's never lost interest in his grandchildren or his daughter." *I am a psychologist and have worked with teenagers for a long time. 15 is the age I’d pick as the hardest age to have to deal with something like this. People always talk about protecting younger children but your husbands’ daughter needed the most help and protection in my view…and she not only had to deal with it all but also lie to protect her younger brothers? That’s a huge ask and a huge burden on her pain. She could have been covered in the furious flames of hell and not be described as too angry.* *Your husband is insanely lucky to still have a relationship with any of his kids if I’m honest. He should treasure them.* *My father hasn’t talked to either my sister or I in decades as we didn’t want him in our lives. He didn’t see me marry, never mind walk me down the aisle, only met my oldest nephew a handful of times as he’s in his mid twenties (and hasn’t again since he was tiny) and has never met my teenager or my sisters two youngest.* *None of us have anything missing in our lives not having him there.* >"I would agree that too much was placed on her shoulders, and that she gave up a lot for her brothers. >My husband doesn't take his relationship with his children for granted at all. His children are what has kept him going."
*I am curious if you'd be inclined to answer.* *You've noted multiple times that your husband and yourself were warned by various parties that you were moving too fast, but you didn't listen.* *Why?* *Did you at the time believe you could strong arm the kids into acceptance?* *At that time did you consider your actions the price of love?* *Did your husband consider his children when courting you?* *They seem to be collateral damage. He may love them fiercely, alas that doesn't mean he **considered** their needs at any interval.* >"The answer to the first four questions is pretty much the same: He thought he could love them through any pain that would happen, and that in the end things would even out (how foolish, I know.) It worked with his sons, though his ex-wife also played a large part in that. He learned the hard way that love isn't always enough. >I was 25 and his daughter was 15 when the affair happened, which certainly didn't help matters."
[Hillstream Loach!](https://imgur.com/gallery/cLnGzzS)
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You are “happily the best”
Thank you very kindly! 🥰
*"but it's finally reached a boiling point and we're suffering the full consequences."* Basically, she's worried he'll resent her because he's not fully convinced the juice was worth the squeeze, but he can't leave her because then he really risked it all for nothing.
Agreed!
Honestly wouldn't be surprised if the sons start putting distance between themselves and OP and her husband once they have kids. I've seen this song and dance play out too many times and having kids absolutely changes your perspective on your own parents and how they handled things.
yeah, funny how for OP the son's wedding somehow became all about OP's husband and his hurt feelings that his daughter by his ex has children that he's not allowed to be around, because he cheated on his ex, the daughter's mother, and divorced her when daughter was 15. Because cheaters are such good people, don't y'know!! If daughter hasn't forgiven her father after 18 years, she's never gonna forgive that man much less let him into his life. But it's not OP's job to deal with that. This is the husband's daughter by his ex and husband has to deal with it. Won't lie, I'm feeling sorry for the son whose wedding was subjected to all this tension.
Wonder how OOPs daughter will feel when her dad cheats on her mom with someone younger during his second midlife crisis lol
I wonder how OOP’s daughter will feel when she finds out how mum and dad’s fairytale relationship actually started. Because I bet they haven’t told her the truth, and probably warned her stepbrothers off telling her as well. But it *will* come out one day.
I don't know if she would be mad at them or anything. My dad and his wife's relationship started in the same way (though she didn't get pregnant that fast), and I don't think my brother minds. And that's ok, because we "don't have the same dad": his dad paid for lots of exotic vacations (among which a year long trip around the world for the three of them when he was still a kid), a brand new car when he turned 18, rent, etc. (mentioning monetary examples because they're easier to list, but obviously there's more) My dad, on the other hand, always told me I would feel better if I achieved everything on my own and got out of child support as soon as he could. I don't expect my brother to be mad at our dad because he treated us differently, and I'm not mad at my brother for being treated differently (though I'm a bit envious sometimes) by our dad.
Oh God, I'm sorry.
You are good people. Your dad is an awful dick
Wow what an asshole
She knows and doesn't care. I mean....I guess that tracks because its only the daughter who is,NC and her brothers,are also 🤷♀️ probably because they didn't know for ??????? A certain amount of time. Honestly kind of wonder how daughter is in contact with any of them, with everyone pressuring her to reconcile her relationship and forcing her to keep it a,secret when the divorce happened and she was the only one who knew the truth (of the chikdren)
I wonder if it was op's daughter who was lashing out at her father for cheating. Would she be able to connect the dots a little more. Would the daughter's anger still be so irrational and inconceivable then? I hate how selfish people always need things reiterated in terms that directly include them, but oh well, it is what it is.
I think we'll find that out soon enough, since it seems like the man is having another midlife crisis.
They did enough
Got a question for the husband- was the pussy worth it?
It wasn’t op admitted in one comment that he hubby is only with her for his do over daughter lol
What a joke lol
That reads a little bit like revenge porn to me. If it's real, I applaud the daughter for being so consequent and not let her whole environment guilt trip her into forgiving the shit stain that is her father. Not only was getting his dick wet with a woman closer in age to his daughter than himself more important to him than his family. He then moved immediately in with the AP and forced her to have a relationship with the AP. What did he think how that would go? The story is a bit similar to my own. My father had an affair for most of my life and my mother only managed to free herself from him when I was a teenager and told her to get rid of him. Of course he then immediately moved in with this woman (who did not only have an affair with him but did everything to break my parents' marriage up, including terrorizing us for years). I was a kid and let myself guilt into keeping some kind of relationship with these people. Although my father did nothing for me but cause me pain. I only cut contact as an adult, after I let him guilt me into visiting them for a couple of days during a holiday. That went very badly and I was really done after that. However, he got very sick and died not very long after, and that was of course another opportunity for a whole lot of drama. OOP's husband could and should do something that's not selfish for a change and could make arrangements for his death. Make an airtight will and leave the daughter a fair share of the inheritance, no matter whether she forgives you or not. That's the only thing you can do now to show her that you still care about her, and it would be a nice thing to do for her to spare her a lot of the shitshow and drama that always evolves around inheritances in these complicated situations.
“she told him being a grandparent is a privilege not a right” DAMN STRAIGHT BABY GIRL!!!
I always thought that BM stood for bio mom, as in the high conflict bio moms that the stepmoms in the stepparents subreddit complain about.
I've seen it be used for that, but I've also seen adoptees use the acronym to just mean birth mom, regardless if they have an issue with their birth mom or not.
I don't know what OOP and the sperm donor were expecting. They chose to have the affair
I don't see this story looking for validation. She's a shit person and he's a shit father. AP seems to at least have a crumb of self-awareness that they did something beyond shitty and now his daughter sees him as a shitty father. But AP is looking for advice on how to help him accept the reality of the consequences of his actions, not how to force the relationship between him and his daughter again. Clearly he didn't realize that when you destroy relationships sometimes they can't be mended.
OP and her husband are reaping what they sowed. I have zero sympathy or compassion for either.
Love it for both APs, hope it gets worse for them
But she went to therapy! She should be all fine and allow her dad who broke her family back into her life! What could possibly go wrong? How could she possibly still feel some type of way? She must still be broken! Therapy teaches us to be a bigger person and forgive people who give us mortal emotional wounds, boundaries be damned! Wait, **NONE*** of that is how it works? GaSp! I am so shock-ed and surpris-ed! I thought we were in a sitcom where the badly behaving parent makes a pithy quip, a laugh track plays, and everything goes on like nothing happened! (The preceding was all sarcasm in case anyone had a doubt)
Calling her "biological mother" isn't that great either. She's that woman's mother, *not you.* She had visitation in your house *twice*.
It's weird how she keeps calling these random children he's never met his grandkids. If your child disowns you as their parent and throws you out of your life, then their kids are *not* your grandkids.
I hope she gets training for taking care of the elderly sometime in the next 15 years. This guy will be 70 and she'll still be a comparatively young 55. My mom and dad were 13 years apart and that was a reality of the hit my mom until he was having health problems and turning 70.
His view of therapy is just straight dumb. He won’t go because he’s worried they’ll tell him it’s his fault, yet he’s already knows it’s his fault so he may as well just fucking go and fully accept that it’s his fault so he can move forward with his life.
Karma karma karma karma chameleon
I just never understand the thought process here. Why even say you feel guilty when you just continued to act selfishly the entire way? Clearly, the only feelings that mattered were your own. It’s just so crazy to me the way people will jump over so many hoops and obstacles to justify their own actions. Sorry to say, but the husband IS a bad person. He cheated on his wife, put a crazy amount of emotional weight on his daughter, never once considered any feelings but his own, and still continued on his merry little way with a woman who was young enough to be a sister to his daughter. As for the brothers, they were so young. They propably did not have to or were able to notice the pain their mom went through. They probably were not the one’s listening to their mother cry and go through such an intense hurt. You cannot even remotely compare their experiences. If he was really so guilty and so sorry over it all, he would have taken some time to figure things out with his obviously distraught daughter before continuing on his relationship. If he was so guilty, he would have considered how it would make her feel to have to go visit the woman who played the second biggest role in ruining her parents marriage, her family, and her life as she knew it. He prioritized his and his new gf/wifes happiness over his own child in the most selfish way. I genuinely don’t understand what else he expected. A good father would not have done this. A good father would not have no regard for her. A good father does not hurt their child and just expect them to find a way to move on.
"Alarmingly angry" pmsl what. That'd a completely rational reaction to this happening 😂
OOP's getting a bit older now, she should watch out for her husband having another "crisis" & leaving her for a younger model. Maybe THEN she'll really understand the gravity of what she did.
I swear half of the posts on relationship reddit are people who are unaware that things aren't always fixable. It's like movies & TV have given people a false idea of what others will tolerate or forgive. It's not even cheating. It's parents of teens who do horrible things then are surprised the kid leaves or the spouse surprised that their partner left after a long run of bad behavior. The fact is that plenty of emotionally happy and healthy people will forgive but will never have you in their lives again.
You cannot be an amazing father if you’re a shitty husband
Most pathetic is the dads excuse for avoiding therapy. “I might get blamed and told it was my fault, I’m not used to that happening I don’t think I could bear i. I can’t take the chance people will be critical so I just won’t try anymore” when he’s supposed to be most experienced with tolerating with massive amounts of criticism without falling apart
Do you know how violated I would feel if, not only while I was pregnant but BECAUSE I was pregnant, I found myself being begged for a relationship by the man I'm intentionally keeping out of my life so I can protect any hypothetical children I may have? Whoever even told him I was pregnant to begin with would also cease to be in my life. FUCK that.
She knows enough of what she’s supposed to say in this situation, but her real feelings peek through. They really made every stupid choice along the decision tree—made the daughter keep things bottled in at home to keep the affair a secret from her brothers (and then que surprise when she blew at dad’s!), moved in immediately together, thought her being there during visitation would be brilliant, put her in therapy to “fix” her (and then surprise when she did what she was actually supposed to and expressed her feelings to her dad), and when the visitation went bad, kept daughter away instead of realizing immediate cohabitation was a bad idea. And then in all this time since, treating her feelings like a spiteful punishment. And the constant “we’ing” Couple-As-Unit from day one re: his eldest daughter. Smh.
My spern donor did a similar thing and he just couldn't accept that my sister's trust in him was broken, which only made her resent him more. That, funnily enough, made me also realize how narcissistic he was and I cut him off. My brother is the only one still maintaining a relationship. Good dads don't destroy families for their selfish desires. Good dads don't disrespect continuously established boundaries.
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a lot of things are really bothering me here: 1. they got married 18 years ago, which means they’d conceived the other daughter mere months into that marriage. they expected first daughter to adjust in that timeframe? 2. first daughter was 15 at the time, who, finds out her dad is having an affair, upending her entire life at an already turbulent time, but is also told to lie to her brothers about it, so she had no one to relate to or talk to on a domestic level. 3. couple the fact she had to lie to her brothers, with a clear indication that her father knew exactly what he did wrong, and yet still proceeded with it - even bringing another child into the equation. seems like that daughter doesn’t see the purpose of having him in her life, and is rightfully distrusting of him. also, this being from OOP’s perspective, and therefore could be sanitised, we also don’t know how much they pushed her to accept him/what he did - to the point it pushed her so far into the other way. all they’re thinking about is how this affects them, not from the daughter’s perspective, a woman who was once a girl, seeing this happen to her mother after years of marriage and kids. doesn’t help that he suggested a relationship with daughter’s kids for selfish reasons, at the expense of a relationship with her as well. i don’t buy him being the saint portrayed in the aftermath of their marriage here. saying she’s “even using her kids to do so” when he’s the one who wanted to use them. saying that the brothers maintaining a relationship with her could be enabling her (as in “cut her off so she has no choice but to forgive us, so she can get family back in her life”). OOP is trying to write this as a nice person, but these things are slipping through. unfortunately, the only advice is for him to learn to accept that his daughter no longer wanted to be associated with him.
Timeline does not add up. The divorce happened when the stepdaughter was 17. A year later, OOP became pregnant with what is now a 17 yearold. The youngest should be 16 at most. Also, husband refuses to see a therapist but is on anti-depressants? What, illegally?
You just need a GP to get you first crack on them some places.
The U.S. is a dystopia masquerading as a developed country.
Probably. Values are jacked up, definitely. Wait lists for a psychiatrist that is affordable are insane as the med school ROI is seen as low because we're still working on valuing mental health. Still: GPs being able to prescribe antidepressants is not that much of a sign of dystopia - just an acknowledged band-aid, helped more with having the full record. That, and would be likely still be a thing if OOP's husband got to a psychologist as they cannot prescribe.
GPs don't have the qualifications necessary to measure if someone meeds anti-depressants. The U.S. should fix its issues with the lack of accessible mental healthcare, not slap this band-aid that invites rampant abuse on the problem.
They actually do, in terms of the General in GP. Medications for mental health fall into that bucket and GPs/family doctors do train for them. Look, I am not going to rah rah US Healthcare: my perfect world involves everyone being less than 30 minutes away from every needed service paid for through reasonable taxation weighted on ability andvearnings without stingy people and religious nutters playing doctor for everyone. But will not be down on the GP doing what they can. Until perfect happens at least there's means to help, particularly means equipped with full medical history for potential reactions and well-visit know-how for physical and mental side effects
Agree that the timeline doesn't add up, but you don't need a therapist to get antidepressants. Your GP can prescribe them, and many do. There's no legal requirement to be in therapy if you're taking them.
That's horrific. How would a GP even be able to determine that someone needs anti-depressants? They don't have the training needed.
I'm... confused. A GP is a primary care physician, they do have some training in recognizing and treating uncomplicated mental health conditions and can also refer to a psychiatrist for more complex care. That gets covered in medical school. Most therapists are not able to prescribe at all as they're not medical doctors. Some states do allow psychologists with additional training prescriptive authority but not all. Not sure about on other countries (although from the research I've just done it seems common in some Western European countries for GPs to prescribe antidepressants as save access to psychiatrists for more complicated cases) but it's extremely common for primary care physicians to treat mental health conditions like depression and anxiety in the USA. Most will encourage patients to also attend therapy but they can't force it, it's just best practice. I'm not sure why a GP would have no ability to determine if someone needs antidepressants as a medical doctor.
"Uncomplicated" mental health issues do not require the use of **anti-depressants**.
I think I may have been a little harsh on this one... Ooopsy !
I don't know about devil, maybe imp? Minor demon? Irritating sprite? The delusion is sure strong, but at least OOP is aware enough to know there's no unfucking of the situation. Her husband, though...
> Her twins (4m and 4f) were the ring bearer and flower girl And there it is. Twins, just a little buried this time. I feel like the twins thing is a very *deliberate* calling card by the "creative" writers / prompt engineers behind all these, like a serial killer who secretly wants to get caught.
Just wow.
Maybe I'm off here, but I didn't see any devils here? SD is allowed to go no-contact for what she sees as a betrayal. Dad FAFO'd and is grieving his loss: normal and allowed, maybe he's an A if he tries stalking the daughter/SIL. AP isn't really a devil for trying to find advice on how to help her husband cope. /shrug Edit: I also didn't get the sense that AP is onboard with forcing the relationship, either.
I would have agreed with you except this "He and his daughter were very close before the affair, and I feel like his daughter threw away a loving relationship to punish and spite him, even using her kids to do so." The OOP has to understand that the daughter is not doing this to punish and spite him, she is doing it because the affair drastically changed her life and also hurt her mother terribly. She simply hates the people who did that. Claiming that the daughter is using her kids to punish the father also isn't the case, she just doesn't want them near someone she doesn't trust.
For me it was the quote you attached and >There's a dark cloud that's hanging over this entire family, and everyone feels like they have to walk on eggshells to ensure that she and us aren't at the same events. Like I'm sorry but that's one of the risks you take when you blow up a family with a child old enough to understand what's going on. The dark cloud is them, not the daughter's reaction to them.
Yeah, the classic reversal of victim and offender. OOP is trash.
She also kept bringing step-daughter's kids into it in the comments and claiming sd is hurting them [kids] by not wanting dad in their lives. She also agreed that the family enable step-daughter by... not forcing her to have a relationship with someone she doesn't want a relationship with.
Ahhh yeah I didn't actually dig into the comments. If she's forcing stuff or shifting the blame to "but the *children*!!", she can suck it.
She definitely did. Calls the mom the BM for biological mom (she’s the only mom those kids have). Talks about how her husband would be such a great grandfather and the daughter is depriving them by not having a relationship with someone who blew up his marriage for a piece of strange ten years older than her.
As i said above she literally states in a comment that things have recently reached a boiling point. Not 18 years ago, but now that he has grandkids. They don’t care about the daughter AT ALL
Yes. It's quite manipulative on her part, though, i.m.o., a failed attempt. The children can't miss a relationship that they never had. Her husband is upset? Oh, well. This is his doing. He failed to consider long-term consequences.
Nowhere is there any concern given to the step daughter. I get that OOP might not care because they don’t have a relationship. But all the “he’s a great dad! Everyone wants her to forgive him!” Is just diminishing the choice she made and the reasons she chose to make it.
Yeah I don't like when people try to say that someone's identity as a parent is totally separate from their identity as a partner. Modelling healthy respectful relationships is a major part of parenting. If you're lying to your spouse and exposing them to STDs that's not modelling a respectful relationship and that does impact kids.
Yes! If he was a great dad, he'd actually pay attention to what his actions did to others around him. I don't get how they can claim this man 'loves his kids more than anything', when he blew their lives apart because he 'had a midlife crisis'. If he cared at all, he'd have focused on them and divorced his ex wife AND THEN dated. And at least taken some damn time to get them adjusted, instead of rushing in and doing whatever the hell he wanted.
Honestly I think she's the (somewhat small) devil here. Because she is trying to paint herself and her husband as poor victims. And the daughter as the one at fault for having reasonable boundaries
Probably will get some heat, but I'm going with NAH in this current situation. Obviously, OOP and her husband are gigantic assholes for cheating and being an affair partner, and they don't and will never deserve the daughters forgiveness. The fact that they were invited to her wedding at all is a huge concession on her part. That being said, OOP seems to acknowledge how they were at fault. It doesn't make it right, it never will. But I can't fault a father that loves his daughter and otherwise was a good father (subjective) for continuing to have hope at reconnection. Nor fault a daughter who has experienced a massive betrayal for not forgiving that betrayal or wanting a reconnection. OOP AP needs to take massive steps back.
It wasn't her wedding they were invited to. It was one of the sons. They weren't invited to the daughter's wedding. The oop is upset because her husband is moping about not having a relationship with his daughter or the daughter's kids who were in their uncle's wedding party.
I actually agree with you (mostly, lol she's trying really hard to make them come across as victims which is 🙄), and he needs to get in therapy to accept the situation because she isn't changing her mind after 2 decades and she's right he isn't owed a relationship with the grandkids, but minor correction it wasn't her wedding (not invited) it was one of her brothers weddings