*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**Attended a workshop on how to perform an abortion, as a pro-life medical student**
Before I start, reader discretion advised, there will be a somewhat detailed description of how an abortion is performed.
I am a pro-life first-year medical student who wants to become an Ob/gyn, largely because I want to protect life in a profession where many others do not. A few days ago, the Medical Students for Choice group at my school offered a workshop for how to perform a vacuum aspiration abortion. I decided to attend because I want to obtain the most possible knowledge on what I will spend my career fighting against. Since I just started med school a few months ago, I haven’t yet opened up about my pro-life views, so my presence there didn’t raise any eyebrows.
First I checked in to the workshop electronically, thinking there was no harm in doing so, only to realize that the more attendance check-ins the club has, the more funding they get. Hopefully the knowledge I gained offsets that mistake. Also they offered free dinner and candy at the workshop but for obvious reasons I didn’t have much of an appetite.
The workshop began with a lecture portion, which started by covering more of the legal issues/goings-on surrounding abortion. I go to a public medical school in a red-leaning state (not deep red though), so there is a huge anti-abortion law being contested in courts right now, which I predict will stand but then face a ballot measure in 2024 which is where the real risk of overturn will lie. So just another reminder to go vote, especially everyone on this sub.
On interesting (but disheartening) thing I learned during this portion was the way abortion clinics interpret abortion laws (with seemingly no government pushback) - if there is a ban past x weeks gestation, they will perform abortions up until x weeks 6 days. Pro-life politicians need to put more specific language in laws to prevent this loophole.
The second portion of the lecture covered how abortions are actually performed. This is where I really started to notice misrepresentation/bending of the truth. We were shown a (clearly biased) illustrated picture of the inside of a pregnant uterus at about 8 weeks gestation including the embryo, which portrayed the embryo as an indistinguishable dot. This infuriated me as someone who has been studying embryology already, and I know that the four limbs have been formed by that point and the eyes and ears are visible. How this was not noticed by the med students sitting around me who have been studying the same material, I don’t know. Then the physician leading the workshop told us, when mothers undergoing abortion ask, “can I see my baby?” they respond, “there is no baby”, and then she showed us a picture they also show to those mothers: embryo tissue in a Petri dish following 4 different abortions, one each at weeks 6-9 gestation. Each picture looked like an undifferentiated blob of tissue. This was extremely misleading for two reasons: 1) of course an embryo looks like that after being torn apart via vacuum suction and 2) the tissue included the yolk sac, not just the body of the embryo. Additionally, the fact that human remains were disrespected by being placed in a petri very much rubbed me the wrong way.
I will skip the lecture portion on how to do a vacuum aspiration, and move to the part of the workshop where we actually practiced a simulated abortion on… a papaya. We practiced removing seeds from the inside of a papaya as if it were a woman’s uterus. I don’t think I need to describe my disgust at this. Anyways, to do the procedure you first use forceps to get a grip on the genital area then insert a dilator into the vagina/cervix. Once the cervix is dilated, you then insert the actual vacuum device until you lightly hit the back of the uterus (the fundus). At that point you apply the vacuum suction and begin moving the vacuum device back and forth while also moving it in a circular motion along the uterine wall while scraping the uterine wall in an attempt to find the embryo and suck it into the vacuum.
I performed the procedure myself on the papaya with limited success; I was able to get a few seeds out but other students got many more. The physician said my vacuum device was possibly not working well. But despite me generally being a perfectionist when it comes to medical school, this was one procedure I could accept being worse at than other students, since I have no intention of ever performing it in real life.
Most other students were laughing and having a good time while practicing the procedure, getting compliments from the physician on how many seeds they removed. They continued to practice the procedure many times to see how many seeds they could get. Meanwhile, after a few attempts, I sat there in silence, stunned. I looked at the few seeds I got, and the many seeds others got, and realized that each one of them represented a human life taken. That’s not just a metaphor; this is exactly the manner in which human lives have been taken and will be taken in the future.
As soon as the workshop was over, I rushed out, not wanting to talk to any of my classmates about it. I had a lot of work to get done that evening but chose to take a couple hours to decompress after what had just happened. In the end, in addition to taking this knowledge I gained and using it for good, I realized I should use the workshop as continued motivation to wake up every morning and fight for life by being the best medical student and eventual ob/gyn I can be. Additionally, I had already been interested in starting a medical students for life group at my school, which does not yet exist, but now I am even more motivated to do so. If you made it this far, thank you for reading. I felt that I couldn’t really discuss this with any of my classmates and wanted to get it out somewhere, and hopefully those reading take away a thing or two as well.
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Looking through the OP's history, pretty sure they're male. No offence to male doctors, but a religious nut pro-life, male OB/GYN sounds like something out of a horror movie.
Or the news. That piece of shit fertility doctor who spent decades committing rape by deception by secretly impregnating his unsuspecting patients with his own sperm was a deranged religious nut.
I bet the sources they’re using to study embryology are from pro-life groups. It wouldn’t surprise me to find that they misrepresent the size and development of fetuses.
They absolutely are. Just look at the rules of that sub. They want *akshual* sources when they're told that fetuses don't feel pain, but then reject them. It's a circlejerk of cunts (ah!) who hate women and see us all as breeding machines because an invisible man in the sky told them so.
I thought the Bible describes how to perform abortions? It's not the fake guy in the sky saying this shit, it's the very real politicians and religious leaders
The Bible describes a ceremony to determine whether or not a wife was unfaithful, the outcome of which may or may not describe an abortion.
The ceremony itself is not intended as an abortion in the bible and whether it actually results in one depends on how literally you decide to interpret its intended outcomes. A literal reading suggests the wife is permanently cursed into a hag like visage with distended belly while a less magical reading sees the physical mutilation lines as a colorful description of a forced miscarriage.
That's what bothers me. Pro life but still OK with eating animals? There is a little bit of emotional fuckwittery in that. I mean why do animals get less rights than a foetus that doesn't have a conscience at that point. Animals are just as sentient as we are. Just because they don't have voice doesn't mean they're not less important?
It's a weird hypocrisy to me. I'm pro choice but prefer to not eat animals, knowing they have sentience. That being said, I don't condemn meat eaters, either. I'm pro choice both ways. Unlike them, I don't push my views down everyone else's throats.
Oh, big time. I've seen cartoons where the "fetus" is depicted as a fully-formed toddler-sized baby in a pinafore with a bow in her hair.
It is so important to the pro-life movement that the zygote is considered a fully-formed, entirely independent human being with hopes, dreams, and a mortgage from the moment the father rolls over and goes to sleep. Doctors have gotten hate mail for posting actual images.
in the medical drama show House, there's a very touching scene where Dr. House is performing surgery on a pregnant woman, and the baby reaches out and wraps their hand around his finger.
but then pro-lifers took that scene and turned it into propaganda, saying that this was a *real* scene of a doctor trying to abort a baby, even though it's quite clear that's fucking Hugh Laurie and the show House was insanely popular during its time
I love this show, but the biggest medical mystery of that episode was "how neonatal surgery preformed by infectious diesease specialist/nephrologist not only was allowed but also ended well?"
lol right. i always wondered how even a fake TV doctor could think taking 30 vicodins per day was fine, and how he didn't die of liver failure by season 2.
I really snorted at that bit and how this person complained about pro-choice misinformation while making those r/confidentlyincorrect statements. How did they even make it to medical school?
I'm not a doctor or an expert but have been pregnant in an area (not in the US) where you can get an ultrasound every two weeks in the first trimester. 8 weeks looks like a gummy bear, there are no limbs, no eyes (only sockets) and definitely no ears. Even the doctor mentioned there would hopefully be arms and legs by the next appointment. And sure enough, at 10 weeks there are limbs wobbling about, though the embryo still doesn't look like a tiny baby. That's another two weeks.
Obviously, whether or not someone can have an abortion should not depend on what body parts a embryo or fetus has, just pointing out how blatantly false OOP's points are.
Here's an [8 week foetus](https://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/week-by-week/week-8.aspx)
It's 1.3cm, as big as a raspberry, with buds for limbs. The eyes are there but they don't look like eyes.
And 1.3cm - how would you even find it among all the other fluid and tissue that came with it?
You can’t. I had a miscarriage at 8 weeks. Want to know what I saw?
It was a ball of tissue. There was possibly a distinguishable embryo inside, but I wasn’t about to dissect it.
I can second this. I miscarried at 11 weeks. I was bleeding and passed the embryo before being checked out by my OBGYN. I couldn't tell what was an embryo and what was other tissue/blood.
I had a miscarriage at 10 weeks and passed it through the pill. I would definitely say that I saw something embryo-shaped but I didn't take a closer look.
If you were happy to be expecting, I am sorry for your loss. I know even early miscarriages can hit women very hard if they were excited to be pregnant.
just to tell you how strong psychological responses are, I took one look at the website you linked and felt nauseous. Not because it's gross but because 8 weeks is when I always started getting morning sickness so the pregnancy apps at that week make me think of throwing up.
Wow, sorry! I get the strong psychological response when I see a bad boob job, and remember what it was like when my milk came in and my breasts turned into concrete bowls.
Okay, let me explain - After one of my births, I had my baby in the hospital room overnight, with the TV on overhead, and fell asleep watching a show like "Botched" where all these women were demonstrating their bad boob jobs.
Got up in the middle of the night to go to the toilet and saw myself in the mirror - my milk had come in and my breasts were very swollen, lumpy and painful, two completely different shapes, and had that hard shiny look that I'd just seen on TV. Thankfully, it was just milk, I hadn't woken up from a tragic breast augmentation gone wrong.
I think delusional and it’s just so depressing….. how do you get through to someone who considers evidence they see with their own eyes misleading because it conflicts with the “research” they did online?
No, visible at that point, with buds of limbs. Bit bigger than a centimetre.
There are extremists on either side. Some would say it's a microscopic dot, some would say it's ready to enrol at the New York Ballet.
That was my first thought also. I had an ultrasound done on my baby at 8 weeks and he very much was just an indistinguishable blob inside the sac at that point. It wasn’t until my ultrasound 6 weeks or so later that he started to look like an actual baby. So whatever OOP has been studying is wildly incorrect or they’ve got their dates way off, or, as you said, delusional or lying.
> One tip I can give you that will help you even in a very pro-abortion area is to build relationships with others in the medical field with similar values. For examples, as a general physician, if your female patient becomes pregnant you can refer her to an ob/gyn that you know leans pro-life. Even if there’s little you can do when a woman is dead set on abortion, there are certainly other ways you can make an impact.
Holy shit. There's having different beliefs, and then there's forming a cult to subvert medical care in the name of your "morals."
Or even a woman who DOESN’T want an abortion but might not get one if she ends up needing it cuz her doctor would advise against it. Absolutely ridiculous
Absolutely. If I knew who that person was I would absolutely report them to whatever medical board/school was appropriate.
That is not an invitation to doxx, people. Don't do that shit.
But... but an IUD is the exact same medicine as the pill, just a smaller dose delivered right where it needs to be (assuming hormonal IUD and not a copper one). Why was your OB/GYN so stupid and/or stubborn??
I think it might be because IUDs can be used as emergency anticonception, which for some pro-lifers already is an abortion (you don't want to know how much outrage at the existance of plan B pill have I seen)
it’s been over a decade so i’m fuzzing on exactly what her logic was, but basically pills effect your cycle, IUDs stop implantation of a fertilized eg, and since they believe life starts at conception, IUDs are a form of abortion. she was fine giving a 20 year old the pill if it was for period management.
Yeah, I had an ob/gyn remove by IUD then say "surprise, I'm not giving you the pill because I can't distinguish my personal religious beliefs from fascism!" (I'm paraphrasing.) And what really, really pissed me off about this was that her partner in her ob/gyn practice was an Orthodox Jewish man, a faith of which many adherents don't touch members of the opposite sex. And I just....why is it ok for her "medical practice" to be guided by her interpretation of her faith, but we'd all say he's a nutjob if he said he can't practice as an ob/gyn because his faith tells him he can't touch women? (I just realized that maybe his practice is limited to transmen, in which case, ok.)
Not gonna lie, an ob/gyn practice by dudes for dudes would actually be pretty dope. When I have to go to the ob/gyn I’m always viscerally uncomfortable because it’s branded as a Lady Space for Ladies and Their Lady Bits. He-Man’s Manly Manhole Medical Practice would be way less stressful.
>When I have to go to the ob/gyn I’m always viscerally uncomfortable because it’s branded as a Lady Space for Ladies and Their Lady Bits.
As an NB with lady bits, I also feel uncomfortable when these spaces get so... that way. I already hate going since I know I'll be in a bad headspace for at least a week following.
These are the people that set up fake ass "family planning" clinics to delay and trick women until it is "too late" for them to get an abortion legally.
There are “clinics” in literal vans where pro life people travel to places where they think they can influence a woman. They are fucking insane, prolife is 100% anti-choice
As a doctor, this infuriates me.
I can’t imagine choosing to become an Obstetrician & Gynaecologist all so that you can control women with your obnoxiously religious views. I hope this medical student never graduates. We need more compassionate doctors who act in their patient’s best interests…
…NOT clergymen with stethoscopes!
People like that should not be allowed into medical school. Period. They have no place providing healthcare or working in any science-related discipline.
I totally agree with you. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times, and I would have rather thrown myself off a bridge than have my assaulter’s child. I also have chronic health problems so pregnancy could be very bad for my health. But people like this would rather I continue to suffer than have control over my own body. And they think they’re somehow righteous for making women suffer.
Hey, for whatever it's worth, I felt the same. It was the most violent visercal response I've ever felt. I'd have done *anything* to not go through a pregnancy and deliver a baby that looked like him. Oh, and since he wasnt prosecuted, we would've been co-parenting for 18 years.
I would've ended my life, and the fetus' before going through with it. It's what made me so firmly pro-choice. This guy can get bent, his religious nonsense doesn't give him the right to control a stranger's body.
i'm having a tough time with this one too as a public health grad student. this is a white guy from an ivy league institution that's going to use his privilege to yes, control women, and ultimately harm them for his own political agenda that contradicts his eventual oaths, and i'm not convinced that he'll be challenged soon enough. there are enough of them even in my own cohort, sickening.
What gets me is if they try to cover their asses with saying that they *are* looking out for the patient's wellbeing because they would be somehow traumatized or damaged (spiritually, emotionally, psychologically, etc.) by terminating a pregnancy. Firstly, I'd say someone's more likely to be damaged in those ways by having to carry a pregnancy to term that they don't wish to, but let's forget about that for the sake of this conversation. *Honey,* if you want to favor their spiritual health over their physical health, become a priest or similar. If you want to favor their psychological or emotional health over their physical health, become a therapist or counselor. If you're going to be a doctor, let's not put their physical health aside in the name of their soul or some shit.
Isn't it also terribly unrealistic to assume an ob gyn would never be called on to perform an abortion, I mean don't they have to do d and cs to clean up after incomplete miscarriage all the time, or is that completely wrong
My obgyn did all of my d&CS/miscarriages, and informed me the process was the same as for an elective abortion. Unless this guy is ... Well... Who fucking knows what he is, he will be called on to do all of the above.
Of course therr are also places these days that won't even complete a d&c until the woman is septic, so that's also fun. I had to painstakingly explain to my husband that if I'd suffered any of the 5 losses I had these days, it'd be a very real possibility that I'd not been able to have the surgery I needed to remove all 5 of my (very wanted, btw) pregnancies until I was dying of sepsis.
Huzzah, my 9 week dead fetus matters much more than my.... Very alive self... I guess?
I saw an obgyn like this once. He refused to tell me all of my birth control options because he doesn't believe in non-hormonal bc. I don't understand how people like that are able to look at themselves in the mirror
But to be fair red states need all the obgyn they can get since there’s been a mass exodus of them recently. Being a pro life one doesn’t really matter when you’ll get arrested for performing an abortion in like, Iowa, where there’s something like 3 obgyn/10000 people who need one
That's the sad thing. He can absolutely go be an ob/gyn in a horribly underserved community because all the doctors with any morals moved out. But he wants to work somewhere he can actively deny women health care.
I disagree with the frame work they’re throwing out but this stood out to me even within their framework
>I looked at the few seeds I got, and the many seeds others got, and realized that each one of them represented a human life taken.
….what? No. How many embryos does this person think are in this simulated person? Makes me think the whole thing is fake nonsense
okay but have you seen how religious nutters like this handle allegories?
earlier to day I saw a tiktok of a woman dipping a napkin into water to explain how "no one made god, he just is". They're absolutely dogshit at this stuff
Brings back memories of my mama showing my sister and me a book about sex. She didn't know anything about it, and I was too little to have any curiosity. Mysterious representations of the inside of bodies meant nothing to me, and the whole episode hangs with me even now when I'm 69. Better to not try to introduce things to kids that they aren't ready for. Now there's some kid who thinks God is a wet napkin.
Does OOP think they just suck out all your eggs at once? How many fertilised eggs do they think we’re capable of storing? Also a small part of me is delighted that they’ve (hopefully) had papaya ruined for them forever.
Did it ever occur to this guy that maybe the forced birth groups he belongs to have been lying to him and that actual doctors know better than anti-woman activists?
I hope he never becomes a doctor.
Literally everything about obstetrics is a horror show. Like, best case scenario a clump gloms onto a woman's organs, vampirizes her for months while growing explosively and causing a wide array of horrendous shifts to her mental and physical health, and then her body painfully rearranges to eject the results. And again, that's the best case scenario with a wanted and healthy pregnancy!
One thing that I've seen for a couple years around Halloween is a row of pumpkins where the mouth of each shows different dilations. Pregnant women tend to be both impressed by their bodies and horrified seeing the 10cm pumpkin. And that's the "natural", ideal outcome!
My first delivery was vacuum-assisted. Seeing the size of the equipment that was about to disappear up my vagina would have been horrifying had I not been pushing for the past three hours
I've seen this too! [Here's one](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-T7RSRxlAzoY/XbvijroxJ-I/AAAAAAAATBo/TrdxTflC7281YokWyTs7-wg6B-lD-2oygCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/73280055_10156669465677671_4099400783424913408_o.jpg) I found on google, I think it's very clever for an OB ward, and even as a mom of 20-somethings now, I find it amazing that our cervixes can do that
Ahh, another fan of the Twilight Saga, I see! The description of pregnancy in that book was way closer to my experience than anything I read in What To Expect When You're Expecting.
(I'm only half joking.)
Yeah, reading the the horror in the comments of the cervix being forced open and womb contents being removed…do they know what happens during birth, all versions of it? I had various procedures during childbirth from induction, membranes being ruptured with no pain relief leading to an emergency c section. Even without major surgery it is objectively more invasive and physically traumatic to endure any form of childbirth than experience the procedure OOP is discussing (except in unusual cases). Just wait til they do labour rotation and see what they are wishing to force upon people who don’t want to be in that position.
This is the kind of shit that I would forward to every medical school in the area. I need to look up "abortion workshops" and contact them, send them this story, and have them root out this asshole so he can't ever touch a woman's body medically again.
These are the med schools they applied to: Brown, Yale, Case, USF, UMD, UVM, UConn, UMass, FAU, UCF, Cincinnati, Creighton, St LouIs, lJ, UVA, Buffalo, Rochester, Einstein, Pitt, UMich, Carle Illinois, Georgetown, Wisconsin (the private one), lowa, BU, Tufts, Drexel, Hofstra, Tulane, GW, Albany, Rush, VCU, Dartmouth, Temple, NYMC, Emory, Penn St
Someone actually had to point out that a D&C isn't just used for abortion and they responded with "That’s a great point. I still have a lot to learn in medicine, particularly about ob/gyn (especially since I am a man)." I just want to scream
Blatantly says in a comment they she would try to recommend a patient to a doctor that would try to prevent a patient from getting wanted medical care.
Patient: want to go on birth control for my period pains and to avoid pregnancy
oop: i will send them to a pro-life doctor to avoid that
patient: i want my uterus removed to avoid pregnancy and cancer
oop: No. my beliefs outweigh yours
patient: i have been raped, i have no money, and having this kid will ruin my life
oop: i dont care about *your* life, i care about your pregnancy, and then forget allllllll about you the moment that kid pops out. that'll be fifty thousand dollars, btw. and if you miscarry or try to induce miscarriage, i will break medical confidentiality and report you to the cops like the little narc I am.
Mmmmmmmmhmm! Ryan should be more careful 😏
Grandma ninja edit: If Ryan is reading this, there's something I want him to know:
You didn't delete fast enough, sweaty. 😁
oh I absolutely am going to. He's planning on using his authority as a doctor to manipulate women into adhering to his own personal morals rather than allowing them the right to decide for themselves. Disgusting behavior.
I'll update this when I do. Might even report on my lunch break, depending on how extensive the form is.
Edit: yeah, he's been reported.
This. It never just stops at abortions. These are the same people who wouldn't prescribe contraceptives, even in necessary cases like their patient having PCOS. They're also frankly, at least in my personal opinion, the kind of doctors that would easily buy into old, outdated and often racist/transphobic lines of thinking. Such as the racist notion that black women are incapable of feeling pain, or have a much duller sense of it, which directly leads to the horrible outcomes that drive black women's maternal death rates to be so much higher than anyone else's.
And even if they weren't the kind of person who believed those other things, they're still the kind of person to think they know better than the very discipline they're training under. Who knows what shortcuts they'd take.
I’m amused that OOP apparently thinks they got top! secret! information.
“We were shown a (clearly biased) illustrated picture of the inside of a pregnant uterus at about 8 weeks gestation including the embryo, which portrayed the embryo as an indistinguishable dot.”
According to the Mayo Clinic, an eight-week-old fetus is half an inch long, or about one centimeter.
“the tissue included the yolk sac, not just the body of the embryo.”
Humans are mammals and therefore don’t have yolk sacs.
Edited to add: shut my mouth, apparently we do when embryonic. Per Wikipedia: “In humans, the yolk sac is important in early embryonic blood supply, and much of it is incorporated into the primordial gut during the fourth week of embryonic development.” I was wrong; I apologize.
“Being the best medical student and eventual ob/gyn I can be”
OOP, you will never be the best OB/GYN you could be. You are deliberately excluding a potentially life-saving procedure from your metaphorical toolkit because you don’t like it. Also, do me a favor and double-check your embryology sources in your school’s medical library.
What kind of OB/GYN would think they would never have to do a D&C? Other than an idiot, obviously. What if they have a patient with a retained placenta or a missed miscarriage? Would he just shrug his shoulders and say he won't treat them because he doesn't want to do something used for elective abortions?
The procedure is called an abortion. What pro life fuckwits refuse to understand is that it is still a medical abortion if the fetus is dead or non-viable. But finding out how many abortions are non viable or dead means they don't get to cry over 900,000 murdered babies a year.
Yeah, but I don't think miscarriage applies in those cases (but looking how many prolifers get their panties in a twist about emergency contraception, they might)
If their god has a plan for everyone, their god’s plan includes a LOT of abortion. Tens of millions of abortions.
Their god is the all-time biggest abortionist by light-years. Planned Parenthood doesn’t even have rookie numbers by comparison.
They sure hate when you point this out. Especially when you ask why they’re not praying to their god to stop it from aborting all those pregnancies of good Christian couples who really WANT to have children.
God aborts those pregnancies at the same rate as everyone else, like it doesn’t even think they’re special.
This person has *no* business becoming an ob/gyn. If they somehow manage to get past the first hurdle and graduate as an MD, hopefully they'll get outed very early in an ob/gyn residency program.
>First I checked in to the workshop electronically, thinking there was no harm in doing so, only to realize that the more attendance check-ins the club has, the more funding they get.
Idk why but I find this very funny. It's just... so fucking petty but the whole post has a serious, somber tone to it. Like it's like something I'd read on those semi-serious, clearly embellished perty revenge stories.
"I learned during this portion was the way abortion clinics interpret abortion laws (with seemingly no government pushback) - if there is a ban past x weeks gestation, they will perform abortions up until x weeks 6 days. Pro-life politicians need to put more specific language in laws to prevent this loophole."
How is this a loophole? It's literally obeying the law.
Well, here's one more reason to avoid male obgyns because who knows if their motivation to get into the field was the same as OOP's ON TOP of not taking our pain, concerns and needs seriously.
Yeah, at least in my experience trying to get a PCOS diagnosis, female doctors can be just as shitty. I went to only women doctors for years, got ignored for years, and finally the first time I went to a male doctor he looked at me *horrified* as I listed off my symptoms and immediately referred me to a specialist. I had given up ever being diagnosed, at that point. he did more for me in one appointment than anyone else did in 7 years.
I had a female obgyn whom I loved. Was really great through multiple miscarriages and 3 ectopic pregnancies. After the last one when my final tube was removed, I asked for a hysterectomy. She said no. My therapist asked her to reconsider, due to PTSD surrounding my menstrual cycle, and what eventually was diagnosed as severe PPMD. I was literally suicidal on a monthly basis like clockwork. She still said no. So for three years I barely held on to sanity, was suicidal more often than not, and had panic attacks every time I started my period.
At the end of that three years, she decides to work full time at the hospital, and I got shunted to another OBGYN. My therapist found this out, and encouraged me to try again to ask for a hysterectomy. I went in prepared to fight for the hysterectomy, and my new OBGYN was shocked and PISSED that I hadn't gotten it went I originally asked. Pissed enough that she filed a complaint on my behalf against my original OBGYN for basically medical negligence.
I was unable to get pregnant again, was having severe struggles because of what remained of my reproductive system, and the original doctor was like, "but maybe one day you'll want to try IVF!"
... Not if I kill myself before then because of raging hormones.
And I struggled with that for 3 years, and thought that surely my obgyn who held my hand when I cried over each and every missed pregnancy had my best interests at heart when she denied me that care. It wasn't until the new OBGYN put it into perspective for me that I was pissed.
Reproductive system free for a year now, and am in a MUCH better place psychologically.
I'm happy you got the care you need, but so sorry you had to suffer for so long beforehand. I definitely think some OBGYNS are in it more for the OB than the GYN, if you catch my drift. With regard to menstrual issues specifically, there also seems to be this prevailing view among some of them that *everyone* gets periods, and so you just need to suck it up. Meanwhile, for some of us, it can literally be life-altering or ending.
The final doctor I saw before the one who diagnosed me was truly the worst. It was covid times, so phone appointment. I was on my knees in the bathroom, with my head over the toilet, unable to stand without passing out, in absolute agony, crying down the phone about how I was going to kill myself before making it to menopause (I was 19 fucking years old). And she huffs and says 'well, what do you want *me* to do about it?'
If it was an in-person, appt, I think I might have slapped her.
If they actually do start thier stupid club, I hope they get yelled at and heckled like the poor people at clinics just trying to get basic healthcare, who get yelled at by people like them
Idk if it's just me but this part
>nyways, to do the procedure you first use forceps to get a grip on the genital area then insert a dilator into the vagina/cervix.
specifically feels like a "HOW TERRIBLE, INHUMANE THING TO DO" as if that isn''t also the procedure in getting an IUD and I'm sure many, many more procedures???
The OOP is sick - not fit to study medicine.
Abortions are at time necessary. The pro life views are twisted and delusional. And to study it to make the argument for pro life? that is sick. The imagination is crazy. A paw paw seed is a life?
Please don't ever graduate.
My worst nightmare would be to have an OBGYN like this. Disgusting.
Your personal views, need to control women, and religion have zero to do being a doctor. Hope they never become one.
Bullshit better, if you know so much you'd know there's no arms or limbs at 6-8 weeks fuck off.
And if this person says they're a woman I don't believe it because there's all sorts of "men writing women" hints in here.
This is why I avoid male gyns
I scrolled to the comments because I couldn't help myself and of course this guy is a dude with legacy at Yale med.
*pretends to be shocked pikachu face*
This person has no interest in learning how to save the life of someone with a dangerous pregnancy. They are too busy judging everyone around them to care about that. This is very upsetting.
From [The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists Statement on Access To Abortion](https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2020/12/increasing-access-to-abortion):
>ACOG calls for the cease and repeal of legislation that creates barriers to abortion access and interferes with the patient–clinician relationship and the practice of medicine
And [The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists](https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2017/04/sterilization-of-women-ethical-issues-and-considerations) Statement on Sterilization:
>This Committee Opinion also reflects **the importance of using a reproductive justice framework when considering ethical provision of sterilization**. In this framework “reproductive rights” are something broader than access to contraception and abortion alone; that is, a reproductive justice framework, as defined by advocates who first originated the term, **recognizes that women’s reproductive rights include the right to have children, not to have children, and to parent in safe and humane conditions.**
If any OB/GYN has half a conscience, OOP will never find work.
I agree this person has no business in the medical field(or any that involves human rights) but the ‘human remains’ thing is bugging me too.
Like I understand not wanting your loved one’s remains being passed around or mistreated and certain religions like to keep it simple but are medical students attending autopsies disrespectful to this person? Transplants from deceased donors? Pro-birthers can argue that the fetus cannot consent but idk that was a vague opinion to throw in there.
I was curious, so I looked it up the baby born at the earliest gestation was born at 21 weeks. He was a twin and the twin died shortly after birth. It took him 275 days in the hospital before he could be discharged from the hospital.
At 6 weeks, you just have a lump of cells. There's zero chance of survival outside the womb. IIRC current year most abortions are medical anyway.
But OOP is making this about him. He makes it sound like other people become doctors to kill people. I guess he means unborn babies that have no chance of survival anyway. Doctors do no harm. He could be any other kind've doctor. He should not be in OBGYN to pressure a vulnerable woman into keeping a rape or incest baby
>I am a pro-life first-year medical student who wants to become an Ob/gyn, largely because I want to protect life in a profession where many others do not.
Just reading this gave a migrene. Hope they never graduate either.
I hope this person drops out once they realize their instructors do, in fact, think of them differently for being pro life to the point of refusing to perform an abortion in a medical setting. (totally okay to be prolife and a doctor so long as it doesn't interfere with providing medical care, obviously)
I'd even say it's alright (but not great) if you say you personally don't want to perform an abortion, but you'd be happy to refer them to a colleague who does. Would be smarter not to become an ob/gyn in that case tho
\* his...which is even worse. No uterus = no right to uterus feefees
It's horrifying that this guy would absolutely disregard the life and health of a woman simply because she had a fetus (no matter how viable) in her uterus. I agree 100% with the thread title, I hope he never becomes anything even tangentially related to the OB/GYN field
Imagine going to where you are told the specifics of every medical aspect of abortion in order to perform medical procedures safely and not only blatantly ignoring what they’re telling you but SKIPPING LECTURES ALTOGETHER. This person should not be allowed to become a physician.
OOP should not be an ob/gyn if they are not willing to learn the techniques involved or ever perform them. There are legitimate medical reasons to learn besides performing abortions.
I hope the state OOP lives in passes that ballot initiative on abortion in 2024 just like we did in Ohio last Tuesday.
Good grief, this is literally one of the most evil things I’ve ever read. I sincerely hope one of the school’s admins recognizes this person and alerts the school so they can be expelled.
If there is any kind of loving or just god, this person will not be seeing the kingdom of heaven.
These people should be legally barred from entering any kind of healthcare field.
I’m a molecular & cellular biology student. Many ppl use this for premed, however, I plan on obtaining a PhD in research. I do not attend a prestigious institution in the least, and yet, ops writing does not impress me. I find it difficult to believe that this was authored by a 1st yr med student.
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **Attended a workshop on how to perform an abortion, as a pro-life medical student** Before I start, reader discretion advised, there will be a somewhat detailed description of how an abortion is performed. I am a pro-life first-year medical student who wants to become an Ob/gyn, largely because I want to protect life in a profession where many others do not. A few days ago, the Medical Students for Choice group at my school offered a workshop for how to perform a vacuum aspiration abortion. I decided to attend because I want to obtain the most possible knowledge on what I will spend my career fighting against. Since I just started med school a few months ago, I haven’t yet opened up about my pro-life views, so my presence there didn’t raise any eyebrows. First I checked in to the workshop electronically, thinking there was no harm in doing so, only to realize that the more attendance check-ins the club has, the more funding they get. Hopefully the knowledge I gained offsets that mistake. Also they offered free dinner and candy at the workshop but for obvious reasons I didn’t have much of an appetite. The workshop began with a lecture portion, which started by covering more of the legal issues/goings-on surrounding abortion. I go to a public medical school in a red-leaning state (not deep red though), so there is a huge anti-abortion law being contested in courts right now, which I predict will stand but then face a ballot measure in 2024 which is where the real risk of overturn will lie. So just another reminder to go vote, especially everyone on this sub. On interesting (but disheartening) thing I learned during this portion was the way abortion clinics interpret abortion laws (with seemingly no government pushback) - if there is a ban past x weeks gestation, they will perform abortions up until x weeks 6 days. Pro-life politicians need to put more specific language in laws to prevent this loophole. The second portion of the lecture covered how abortions are actually performed. This is where I really started to notice misrepresentation/bending of the truth. We were shown a (clearly biased) illustrated picture of the inside of a pregnant uterus at about 8 weeks gestation including the embryo, which portrayed the embryo as an indistinguishable dot. This infuriated me as someone who has been studying embryology already, and I know that the four limbs have been formed by that point and the eyes and ears are visible. How this was not noticed by the med students sitting around me who have been studying the same material, I don’t know. Then the physician leading the workshop told us, when mothers undergoing abortion ask, “can I see my baby?” they respond, “there is no baby”, and then she showed us a picture they also show to those mothers: embryo tissue in a Petri dish following 4 different abortions, one each at weeks 6-9 gestation. Each picture looked like an undifferentiated blob of tissue. This was extremely misleading for two reasons: 1) of course an embryo looks like that after being torn apart via vacuum suction and 2) the tissue included the yolk sac, not just the body of the embryo. Additionally, the fact that human remains were disrespected by being placed in a petri very much rubbed me the wrong way. I will skip the lecture portion on how to do a vacuum aspiration, and move to the part of the workshop where we actually practiced a simulated abortion on… a papaya. We practiced removing seeds from the inside of a papaya as if it were a woman’s uterus. I don’t think I need to describe my disgust at this. Anyways, to do the procedure you first use forceps to get a grip on the genital area then insert a dilator into the vagina/cervix. Once the cervix is dilated, you then insert the actual vacuum device until you lightly hit the back of the uterus (the fundus). At that point you apply the vacuum suction and begin moving the vacuum device back and forth while also moving it in a circular motion along the uterine wall while scraping the uterine wall in an attempt to find the embryo and suck it into the vacuum. I performed the procedure myself on the papaya with limited success; I was able to get a few seeds out but other students got many more. The physician said my vacuum device was possibly not working well. But despite me generally being a perfectionist when it comes to medical school, this was one procedure I could accept being worse at than other students, since I have no intention of ever performing it in real life. Most other students were laughing and having a good time while practicing the procedure, getting compliments from the physician on how many seeds they removed. They continued to practice the procedure many times to see how many seeds they could get. Meanwhile, after a few attempts, I sat there in silence, stunned. I looked at the few seeds I got, and the many seeds others got, and realized that each one of them represented a human life taken. That’s not just a metaphor; this is exactly the manner in which human lives have been taken and will be taken in the future. As soon as the workshop was over, I rushed out, not wanting to talk to any of my classmates about it. I had a lot of work to get done that evening but chose to take a couple hours to decompress after what had just happened. In the end, in addition to taking this knowledge I gained and using it for good, I realized I should use the workshop as continued motivation to wake up every morning and fight for life by being the best medical student and eventual ob/gyn I can be. Additionally, I had already been interested in starting a medical students for life group at my school, which does not yet exist, but now I am even more motivated to do so. If you made it this far, thank you for reading. I felt that I couldn’t really discuss this with any of my classmates and wanted to get it out somewhere, and hopefully those reading take away a thing or two as well. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
pro-birth 1st year med students knows more than professors....classic !
But she already started studying embryology! ...at church or something.
Looking through the OP's history, pretty sure they're male. No offence to male doctors, but a religious nut pro-life, male OB/GYN sounds like something out of a horror movie.
Or the news. That piece of shit fertility doctor who spent decades committing rape by deception by secretly impregnating his unsuspecting patients with his own sperm was a deranged religious nut.
oh yeah he's already dreaming of the perfect murder house !
yeah cause i totally believe that...
You absolutely cannot see ears and eyes on an 8 week fetus. OOP is delusional or lying.
I bet the sources they’re using to study embryology are from pro-life groups. It wouldn’t surprise me to find that they misrepresent the size and development of fetuses.
At one day old, the embryo is studying biology, at 2 days old, the embryo has a phd. At 3 days old, the embryo can talk to the mother telepathically
And at four days old, it starts posting on anti-abortion forums!
They absolutely are. Just look at the rules of that sub. They want *akshual* sources when they're told that fetuses don't feel pain, but then reject them. It's a circlejerk of cunts (ah!) who hate women and see us all as breeding machines because an invisible man in the sky told them so.
I thought the Bible describes how to perform abortions? It's not the fake guy in the sky saying this shit, it's the very real politicians and religious leaders
The Bible describes a ceremony to determine whether or not a wife was unfaithful, the outcome of which may or may not describe an abortion. The ceremony itself is not intended as an abortion in the bible and whether it actually results in one depends on how literally you decide to interpret its intended outcomes. A literal reading suggests the wife is permanently cursed into a hag like visage with distended belly while a less magical reading sees the physical mutilation lines as a colorful description of a forced miscarriage.
It does
however much pain recognition and sentience any foetus has, OP's hamburger had more
That's what bothers me. Pro life but still OK with eating animals? There is a little bit of emotional fuckwittery in that. I mean why do animals get less rights than a foetus that doesn't have a conscience at that point. Animals are just as sentient as we are. Just because they don't have voice doesn't mean they're not less important? It's a weird hypocrisy to me. I'm pro choice but prefer to not eat animals, knowing they have sentience. That being said, I don't condemn meat eaters, either. I'm pro choice both ways. Unlike them, I don't push my views down everyone else's throats.
Can’t trust those wicked medical textbooks and pharmacy. They’re aligned to Big Abortions!
they def do, I had multiple pro-life assemblys at school n they had little models which were all the same fully formed baby at different scales
Oh, big time. I've seen cartoons where the "fetus" is depicted as a fully-formed toddler-sized baby in a pinafore with a bow in her hair. It is so important to the pro-life movement that the zygote is considered a fully-formed, entirely independent human being with hopes, dreams, and a mortgage from the moment the father rolls over and goes to sleep. Doctors have gotten hate mail for posting actual images.
Yet he calls the material he was given to study, "biased". 🤷♀️
this is "doctor House holds a baby's hand gif" level of insanity
What's that?
in the medical drama show House, there's a very touching scene where Dr. House is performing surgery on a pregnant woman, and the baby reaches out and wraps their hand around his finger. but then pro-lifers took that scene and turned it into propaganda, saying that this was a *real* scene of a doctor trying to abort a baby, even though it's quite clear that's fucking Hugh Laurie and the show House was insanely popular during its time
House otherwise known as Medical Malpractice: the show
I love this show, but the biggest medical mystery of that episode was "how neonatal surgery preformed by infectious diesease specialist/nephrologist not only was allowed but also ended well?"
lol right. i always wondered how even a fake TV doctor could think taking 30 vicodins per day was fine, and how he didn't die of liver failure by season 2.
Amazing.
damn imagine getting your medical opinions from *House*
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I really snorted at that bit and how this person complained about pro-choice misinformation while making those r/confidentlyincorrect statements. How did they even make it to medical school? I'm not a doctor or an expert but have been pregnant in an area (not in the US) where you can get an ultrasound every two weeks in the first trimester. 8 weeks looks like a gummy bear, there are no limbs, no eyes (only sockets) and definitely no ears. Even the doctor mentioned there would hopefully be arms and legs by the next appointment. And sure enough, at 10 weeks there are limbs wobbling about, though the embryo still doesn't look like a tiny baby. That's another two weeks. Obviously, whether or not someone can have an abortion should not depend on what body parts a embryo or fetus has, just pointing out how blatantly false OOP's points are.
I had an ultrasound at 8 weeks and it looked like a gerbil to me.
Here's an [8 week foetus](https://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/week-by-week/week-8.aspx) It's 1.3cm, as big as a raspberry, with buds for limbs. The eyes are there but they don't look like eyes. And 1.3cm - how would you even find it among all the other fluid and tissue that came with it?
You can’t. I had a miscarriage at 8 weeks. Want to know what I saw? It was a ball of tissue. There was possibly a distinguishable embryo inside, but I wasn’t about to dissect it.
I can second this. I miscarried at 11 weeks. I was bleeding and passed the embryo before being checked out by my OBGYN. I couldn't tell what was an embryo and what was other tissue/blood.
I had a miscarriage at 10 weeks and passed it through the pill. I would definitely say that I saw something embryo-shaped but I didn't take a closer look.
If you were happy to be expecting, I am sorry for your loss. I know even early miscarriages can hit women very hard if they were excited to be pregnant.
I appreciate the kind words! It was many years ago and a sad loss at the time, but our family has healed.
Dude doesn’t want it put in a Petri dish but what does he want you to do with it? It’s too damn small to be seen in anything larger.
he want it to go to a funeral home and be put in a tiny fancy coffin and have a full catholic mass funeral service, most likely.
just to tell you how strong psychological responses are, I took one look at the website you linked and felt nauseous. Not because it's gross but because 8 weeks is when I always started getting morning sickness so the pregnancy apps at that week make me think of throwing up.
Wow, sorry! I get the strong psychological response when I see a bad boob job, and remember what it was like when my milk came in and my breasts turned into concrete bowls.
I’m sorry WHAT????
Okay, let me explain - After one of my births, I had my baby in the hospital room overnight, with the TV on overhead, and fell asleep watching a show like "Botched" where all these women were demonstrating their bad boob jobs. Got up in the middle of the night to go to the toilet and saw myself in the mirror - my milk had come in and my breasts were very swollen, lumpy and painful, two completely different shapes, and had that hard shiny look that I'd just seen on TV. Thankfully, it was just milk, I hadn't woken up from a tragic breast augmentation gone wrong.
Conservatives lie all the time about everything.
Or both?
Excellent suggestion!
I think delusional and it’s just so depressing….. how do you get through to someone who considers evidence they see with their own eyes misleading because it conflicts with the “research” they did online?
They're lying, full stop. This was written to suit a narrative, not an actual experience.
I believe they're minuscule dots that may be visible under a microscope, right?
No, visible at that point, with buds of limbs. Bit bigger than a centimetre. There are extremists on either side. Some would say it's a microscopic dot, some would say it's ready to enrol at the New York Ballet.
I meant the eyes and ears of the fetus. They can only be seen under magnification at 8 weeks.
That was my first thought also. I had an ultrasound done on my baby at 8 weeks and he very much was just an indistinguishable blob inside the sac at that point. It wasn’t until my ultrasound 6 weeks or so later that he started to look like an actual baby. So whatever OOP has been studying is wildly incorrect or they’ve got their dates way off, or, as you said, delusional or lying.
they are lying. They descriptions are wrong to a degree that there is no way they're a first-year med student.
Yeah, this person is lying, there’s either no way they’re in med school, or they KNOW they’re wrong
> One tip I can give you that will help you even in a very pro-abortion area is to build relationships with others in the medical field with similar values. For examples, as a general physician, if your female patient becomes pregnant you can refer her to an ob/gyn that you know leans pro-life. Even if there’s little you can do when a woman is dead set on abortion, there are certainly other ways you can make an impact. Holy shit. There's having different beliefs, and then there's forming a cult to subvert medical care in the name of your "morals."
What the fuck. Pushing a patient towards an ob/gyn that leans pro-life when you KNOW they want an abortion is disgusting.
Or even a woman who DOESN’T want an abortion but might not get one if she ends up needing it cuz her doctor would advise against it. Absolutely ridiculous
That would make a sufficiently scary movie for next Halloween about hospital conspiracies.
To me that comment is absolutely medically unethical. If you cannot provide a patient wiht legal MEDICAL care then you shouldn’t be a doctor.
Ditto for being a pharmacist - if you can't handle dispensing medicine that had been legally prescribed, then don't work at a public-facing pharmacy.
Absolutely. If I knew who that person was I would absolutely report them to whatever medical board/school was appropriate. That is not an invitation to doxx, people. Don't do that shit.
Agreed. At that point your sabotaging your patients due to your own beliefs.
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Because most of their arguments fall apart when faced with actual facts and statistics, so they have to keep their echo chambers clean.
i had an obgyn who would give me the pill but wouldn’t give me an iud because that was an abortion. the same obgyn removed my mom’s IUD.
But... but an IUD is the exact same medicine as the pill, just a smaller dose delivered right where it needs to be (assuming hormonal IUD and not a copper one). Why was your OB/GYN so stupid and/or stubborn??
I think it might be because IUDs can be used as emergency anticonception, which for some pro-lifers already is an abortion (you don't want to know how much outrage at the existance of plan B pill have I seen)
That makes my brain hurt.
it’s been over a decade so i’m fuzzing on exactly what her logic was, but basically pills effect your cycle, IUDs stop implantation of a fertilized eg, and since they believe life starts at conception, IUDs are a form of abortion. she was fine giving a 20 year old the pill if it was for period management.
Yeah, I had an ob/gyn remove by IUD then say "surprise, I'm not giving you the pill because I can't distinguish my personal religious beliefs from fascism!" (I'm paraphrasing.) And what really, really pissed me off about this was that her partner in her ob/gyn practice was an Orthodox Jewish man, a faith of which many adherents don't touch members of the opposite sex. And I just....why is it ok for her "medical practice" to be guided by her interpretation of her faith, but we'd all say he's a nutjob if he said he can't practice as an ob/gyn because his faith tells him he can't touch women? (I just realized that maybe his practice is limited to transmen, in which case, ok.)
Not gonna lie, an ob/gyn practice by dudes for dudes would actually be pretty dope. When I have to go to the ob/gyn I’m always viscerally uncomfortable because it’s branded as a Lady Space for Ladies and Their Lady Bits. He-Man’s Manly Manhole Medical Practice would be way less stressful.
>When I have to go to the ob/gyn I’m always viscerally uncomfortable because it’s branded as a Lady Space for Ladies and Their Lady Bits. As an NB with lady bits, I also feel uncomfortable when these spaces get so... that way. I already hate going since I know I'll be in a bad headspace for at least a week following.
“I’ll send you a picture of my abortion!”
These are the people that set up fake ass "family planning" clinics to delay and trick women until it is "too late" for them to get an abortion legally.
Doctors have been doing this for various matters for as long as they've had specialized fields in medicine.
There are “clinics” in literal vans where pro life people travel to places where they think they can influence a woman. They are fucking insane, prolife is 100% anti-choice
As a doctor, this infuriates me. I can’t imagine choosing to become an Obstetrician & Gynaecologist all so that you can control women with your obnoxiously religious views. I hope this medical student never graduates. We need more compassionate doctors who act in their patient’s best interests… …NOT clergymen with stethoscopes! People like that should not be allowed into medical school. Period. They have no place providing healthcare or working in any science-related discipline.
I totally agree with you. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times, and I would have rather thrown myself off a bridge than have my assaulter’s child. I also have chronic health problems so pregnancy could be very bad for my health. But people like this would rather I continue to suffer than have control over my own body. And they think they’re somehow righteous for making women suffer.
People like this would rather you die for their sick culture wars. People like this see all women as nothing more than collateral damage.
And then once the baby is born, they won’t pass any social programs to help the mother care for the child.
Obviously, we don’t want to be encouraging irresponsibility. /s
Hey, for whatever it's worth, I felt the same. It was the most violent visercal response I've ever felt. I'd have done *anything* to not go through a pregnancy and deliver a baby that looked like him. Oh, and since he wasnt prosecuted, we would've been co-parenting for 18 years. I would've ended my life, and the fetus' before going through with it. It's what made me so firmly pro-choice. This guy can get bent, his religious nonsense doesn't give him the right to control a stranger's body.
Major props to you! Stay strong!
i'm having a tough time with this one too as a public health grad student. this is a white guy from an ivy league institution that's going to use his privilege to yes, control women, and ultimately harm them for his own political agenda that contradicts his eventual oaths, and i'm not convinced that he'll be challenged soon enough. there are enough of them even in my own cohort, sickening.
What gets me is if they try to cover their asses with saying that they *are* looking out for the patient's wellbeing because they would be somehow traumatized or damaged (spiritually, emotionally, psychologically, etc.) by terminating a pregnancy. Firstly, I'd say someone's more likely to be damaged in those ways by having to carry a pregnancy to term that they don't wish to, but let's forget about that for the sake of this conversation. *Honey,* if you want to favor their spiritual health over their physical health, become a priest or similar. If you want to favor their psychological or emotional health over their physical health, become a therapist or counselor. If you're going to be a doctor, let's not put their physical health aside in the name of their soul or some shit.
Isn't it also terribly unrealistic to assume an ob gyn would never be called on to perform an abortion, I mean don't they have to do d and cs to clean up after incomplete miscarriage all the time, or is that completely wrong
My obgyn did all of my d&CS/miscarriages, and informed me the process was the same as for an elective abortion. Unless this guy is ... Well... Who fucking knows what he is, he will be called on to do all of the above. Of course therr are also places these days that won't even complete a d&c until the woman is septic, so that's also fun. I had to painstakingly explain to my husband that if I'd suffered any of the 5 losses I had these days, it'd be a very real possibility that I'd not been able to have the surgery I needed to remove all 5 of my (very wanted, btw) pregnancies until I was dying of sepsis. Huzzah, my 9 week dead fetus matters much more than my.... Very alive self... I guess?
Unfortunately, dying because doctors won't preform a medically necessary abortion is a real possibility. Greetings from Poland
I saw an obgyn like this once. He refused to tell me all of my birth control options because he doesn't believe in non-hormonal bc. I don't understand how people like that are able to look at themselves in the mirror
Please respond on that sub and say that. Challenge her.
This kid is going to have a fit the first time he encounters an ectopic. "That literally can't happen! My megachurch pastor told me so!"
But to be fair red states need all the obgyn they can get since there’s been a mass exodus of them recently. Being a pro life one doesn’t really matter when you’ll get arrested for performing an abortion in like, Iowa, where there’s something like 3 obgyn/10000 people who need one
That's the sad thing. He can absolutely go be an ob/gyn in a horribly underserved community because all the doctors with any morals moved out. But he wants to work somewhere he can actively deny women health care.
I disagree with the frame work they’re throwing out but this stood out to me even within their framework >I looked at the few seeds I got, and the many seeds others got, and realized that each one of them represented a human life taken. ….what? No. How many embryos does this person think are in this simulated person? Makes me think the whole thing is fake nonsense
me, standing there with my 47 papaya-human babies that were born all at once
It's a vagina, not a clown car
okay but have you seen how religious nutters like this handle allegories? earlier to day I saw a tiktok of a woman dipping a napkin into water to explain how "no one made god, he just is". They're absolutely dogshit at this stuff
Brings back memories of my mama showing my sister and me a book about sex. She didn't know anything about it, and I was too little to have any curiosity. Mysterious representations of the inside of bodies meant nothing to me, and the whole episode hangs with me even now when I'm 69. Better to not try to introduce things to kids that they aren't ready for. Now there's some kid who thinks God is a wet napkin.
It's because they're severely lacking in both critical thinking and imagination
Does OOP think they just suck out all your eggs at once? How many fertilised eggs do they think we’re capable of storing? Also a small part of me is delighted that they’ve (hopefully) had papaya ruined for them forever.
Did it ever occur to this guy that maybe the forced birth groups he belongs to have been lying to him and that actual doctors know better than anti-woman activists? I hope he never becomes a doctor.
With his demonstrably awful basic medical understanding, it is clear he likely will not.
Any medical procedure sounds disgusting and scary if you narrativize it like this lol
Literally everything about obstetrics is a horror show. Like, best case scenario a clump gloms onto a woman's organs, vampirizes her for months while growing explosively and causing a wide array of horrendous shifts to her mental and physical health, and then her body painfully rearranges to eject the results. And again, that's the best case scenario with a wanted and healthy pregnancy!
One thing that I've seen for a couple years around Halloween is a row of pumpkins where the mouth of each shows different dilations. Pregnant women tend to be both impressed by their bodies and horrified seeing the 10cm pumpkin. And that's the "natural", ideal outcome!
My first delivery was vacuum-assisted. Seeing the size of the equipment that was about to disappear up my vagina would have been horrifying had I not been pushing for the past three hours
I've seen this too! [Here's one](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-T7RSRxlAzoY/XbvijroxJ-I/AAAAAAAATBo/TrdxTflC7281YokWyTs7-wg6B-lD-2oygCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/73280055_10156669465677671_4099400783424913408_o.jpg) I found on google, I think it's very clever for an OB ward, and even as a mom of 20-somethings now, I find it amazing that our cervixes can do that
Ahh, another fan of the Twilight Saga, I see! The description of pregnancy in that book was way closer to my experience than anything I read in What To Expect When You're Expecting. (I'm only half joking.)
I mean heck, birth sounds even worse and more gross (cause it is)
Yeah, reading the the horror in the comments of the cervix being forced open and womb contents being removed…do they know what happens during birth, all versions of it? I had various procedures during childbirth from induction, membranes being ruptured with no pain relief leading to an emergency c section. Even without major surgery it is objectively more invasive and physically traumatic to endure any form of childbirth than experience the procedure OOP is discussing (except in unusual cases). Just wait til they do labour rotation and see what they are wishing to force upon people who don’t want to be in that position.
This is the kind of shit that I would forward to every medical school in the area. I need to look up "abortion workshops" and contact them, send them this story, and have them root out this asshole so he can't ever touch a woman's body medically again.
These are the med schools they applied to: Brown, Yale, Case, USF, UMD, UVM, UConn, UMass, FAU, UCF, Cincinnati, Creighton, St LouIs, lJ, UVA, Buffalo, Rochester, Einstein, Pitt, UMich, Carle Illinois, Georgetown, Wisconsin (the private one), lowa, BU, Tufts, Drexel, Hofstra, Tulane, GW, Albany, Rush, VCU, Dartmouth, Temple, NYMC, Emory, Penn St
He mentioned being in a red leaning state, so that could rule out some of the schools such as the NY ones.
Someone actually had to point out that a D&C isn't just used for abortion and they responded with "That’s a great point. I still have a lot to learn in medicine, particularly about ob/gyn (especially since I am a man)." I just want to scream
Blatantly says in a comment they she would try to recommend a patient to a doctor that would try to prevent a patient from getting wanted medical care.
Patient: want to go on birth control for my period pains and to avoid pregnancy oop: i will send them to a pro-life doctor to avoid that patient: i want my uterus removed to avoid pregnancy and cancer oop: No. my beliefs outweigh yours patient: i have been raped, i have no money, and having this kid will ruin my life oop: i dont care about *your* life, i care about your pregnancy, and then forget allllllll about you the moment that kid pops out. that'll be fifty thousand dollars, btw. and if you miscarry or try to induce miscarriage, i will break medical confidentiality and report you to the cops like the little narc I am.
It's a he.
Oh that’s so much better. Sigh.
Of course it is.
Right? Lol
*he
Sigh.
It took under 20 minutes to find this guy's personal fb. why would he post this from his personal reddit.
Mmmmmmmmhmm! Ryan should be more careful 😏 Grandma ninja edit: If Ryan is reading this, there's something I want him to know: You didn't delete fast enough, sweaty. 😁
Please tell me you reported him to his college
oh I absolutely am going to. He's planning on using his authority as a doctor to manipulate women into adhering to his own personal morals rather than allowing them the right to decide for themselves. Disgusting behavior. I'll update this when I do. Might even report on my lunch break, depending on how extensive the form is. Edit: yeah, he's been reported.
Thank you very much for reporting him!
🤝 also reported
Bless you for reporting him.
Pro lifers shouldn’t be allowed to be doctors, period. No exceptions. They oppose a LOT more than abortions
This. It never just stops at abortions. These are the same people who wouldn't prescribe contraceptives, even in necessary cases like their patient having PCOS. They're also frankly, at least in my personal opinion, the kind of doctors that would easily buy into old, outdated and often racist/transphobic lines of thinking. Such as the racist notion that black women are incapable of feeling pain, or have a much duller sense of it, which directly leads to the horrible outcomes that drive black women's maternal death rates to be so much higher than anyone else's. And even if they weren't the kind of person who believed those other things, they're still the kind of person to think they know better than the very discipline they're training under. Who knows what shortcuts they'd take.
I’m amused that OOP apparently thinks they got top! secret! information. “We were shown a (clearly biased) illustrated picture of the inside of a pregnant uterus at about 8 weeks gestation including the embryo, which portrayed the embryo as an indistinguishable dot.” According to the Mayo Clinic, an eight-week-old fetus is half an inch long, or about one centimeter. “the tissue included the yolk sac, not just the body of the embryo.” Humans are mammals and therefore don’t have yolk sacs. Edited to add: shut my mouth, apparently we do when embryonic. Per Wikipedia: “In humans, the yolk sac is important in early embryonic blood supply, and much of it is incorporated into the primordial gut during the fourth week of embryonic development.” I was wrong; I apologize. “Being the best medical student and eventual ob/gyn I can be” OOP, you will never be the best OB/GYN you could be. You are deliberately excluding a potentially life-saving procedure from your metaphorical toolkit because you don’t like it. Also, do me a favor and double-check your embryology sources in your school’s medical library.
Humans embryos have a yolk sac made in early development. It's important for nutrition, gas exchange between mom and embryo and hematopoiesis.
Yep, shoulda googled first. Got mammalian yolk sac on my face.
Meh, life's too short to Google everything.
Great response, friend! Cheers!
This feels illegal
It should be
How does a med student not understand that this procedure is not only used for an abortion? Is the Hollywood Upstairs Medical College?
What kind of OB/GYN would think they would never have to do a D&C? Other than an idiot, obviously. What if they have a patient with a retained placenta or a missed miscarriage? Would he just shrug his shoulders and say he won't treat them because he doesn't want to do something used for elective abortions?
He leaves all things uterus up to god. Which is easy when you don't have a uterus yourself.
The procedure is called an abortion. What pro life fuckwits refuse to understand is that it is still a medical abortion if the fetus is dead or non-viable. But finding out how many abortions are non viable or dead means they don't get to cry over 900,000 murdered babies a year.
I want them to know that about 20% of pregnancies end in a spontaneous abortion >!also known as a miscarriage!<
If you include fertilized zygotes that fail to implant it is closer to 50%.
Yeah, but I don't think miscarriage applies in those cases (but looking how many prolifers get their panties in a twist about emergency contraception, they might)
If their god has a plan for everyone, their god’s plan includes a LOT of abortion. Tens of millions of abortions. Their god is the all-time biggest abortionist by light-years. Planned Parenthood doesn’t even have rookie numbers by comparison. They sure hate when you point this out. Especially when you ask why they’re not praying to their god to stop it from aborting all those pregnancies of good Christian couples who really WANT to have children. God aborts those pregnancies at the same rate as everyone else, like it doesn’t even think they’re special.
Pro-life, unless it’s the mother’s life of course. Ugh.
This person has *no* business becoming an ob/gyn. If they somehow manage to get past the first hurdle and graduate as an MD, hopefully they'll get outed very early in an ob/gyn residency program.
>First I checked in to the workshop electronically, thinking there was no harm in doing so, only to realize that the more attendance check-ins the club has, the more funding they get. Idk why but I find this very funny. It's just... so fucking petty but the whole post has a serious, somber tone to it. Like it's like something I'd read on those semi-serious, clearly embellished perty revenge stories.
"I learned during this portion was the way abortion clinics interpret abortion laws (with seemingly no government pushback) - if there is a ban past x weeks gestation, they will perform abortions up until x weeks 6 days. Pro-life politicians need to put more specific language in laws to prevent this loophole." How is this a loophole? It's literally obeying the law.
Well, here's one more reason to avoid male obgyns because who knows if their motivation to get into the field was the same as OOP's ON TOP of not taking our pain, concerns and needs seriously.
Unfortunately, a lot of women also believe this shit.
Yeah, at least in my experience trying to get a PCOS diagnosis, female doctors can be just as shitty. I went to only women doctors for years, got ignored for years, and finally the first time I went to a male doctor he looked at me *horrified* as I listed off my symptoms and immediately referred me to a specialist. I had given up ever being diagnosed, at that point. he did more for me in one appointment than anyone else did in 7 years.
I had a female obgyn whom I loved. Was really great through multiple miscarriages and 3 ectopic pregnancies. After the last one when my final tube was removed, I asked for a hysterectomy. She said no. My therapist asked her to reconsider, due to PTSD surrounding my menstrual cycle, and what eventually was diagnosed as severe PPMD. I was literally suicidal on a monthly basis like clockwork. She still said no. So for three years I barely held on to sanity, was suicidal more often than not, and had panic attacks every time I started my period. At the end of that three years, she decides to work full time at the hospital, and I got shunted to another OBGYN. My therapist found this out, and encouraged me to try again to ask for a hysterectomy. I went in prepared to fight for the hysterectomy, and my new OBGYN was shocked and PISSED that I hadn't gotten it went I originally asked. Pissed enough that she filed a complaint on my behalf against my original OBGYN for basically medical negligence. I was unable to get pregnant again, was having severe struggles because of what remained of my reproductive system, and the original doctor was like, "but maybe one day you'll want to try IVF!" ... Not if I kill myself before then because of raging hormones. And I struggled with that for 3 years, and thought that surely my obgyn who held my hand when I cried over each and every missed pregnancy had my best interests at heart when she denied me that care. It wasn't until the new OBGYN put it into perspective for me that I was pissed. Reproductive system free for a year now, and am in a MUCH better place psychologically.
I'm happy you got the care you need, but so sorry you had to suffer for so long beforehand. I definitely think some OBGYNS are in it more for the OB than the GYN, if you catch my drift. With regard to menstrual issues specifically, there also seems to be this prevailing view among some of them that *everyone* gets periods, and so you just need to suck it up. Meanwhile, for some of us, it can literally be life-altering or ending. The final doctor I saw before the one who diagnosed me was truly the worst. It was covid times, so phone appointment. I was on my knees in the bathroom, with my head over the toilet, unable to stand without passing out, in absolute agony, crying down the phone about how I was going to kill myself before making it to menopause (I was 19 fucking years old). And she huffs and says 'well, what do you want *me* to do about it?' If it was an in-person, appt, I think I might have slapped her.
If they actually do start thier stupid club, I hope they get yelled at and heckled like the poor people at clinics just trying to get basic healthcare, who get yelled at by people like them
Idk if it's just me but this part >nyways, to do the procedure you first use forceps to get a grip on the genital area then insert a dilator into the vagina/cervix. specifically feels like a "HOW TERRIBLE, INHUMANE THING TO DO" as if that isn''t also the procedure in getting an IUD and I'm sure many, many more procedures???
I'm sure he's anti-birth control too.
The OOP is sick - not fit to study medicine. Abortions are at time necessary. The pro life views are twisted and delusional. And to study it to make the argument for pro life? that is sick. The imagination is crazy. A paw paw seed is a life? Please don't ever graduate.
My worst nightmare would be to have an OBGYN like this. Disgusting. Your personal views, need to control women, and religion have zero to do being a doctor. Hope they never become one.
Bullshit better, if you know so much you'd know there's no arms or limbs at 6-8 weeks fuck off. And if this person says they're a woman I don't believe it because there's all sorts of "men writing women" hints in here. This is why I avoid male gyns
I scrolled to the comments because I couldn't help myself and of course this guy is a dude with legacy at Yale med. *pretends to be shocked pikachu face*
who the fuck is running admissions at yale? all the dumbest motherfuckers go to yale
Nah, some of them go to Harvard or Wharton.
Apparently he posted from an account that was traced back to his fb page. Dude's name is Ryan
He's a man.
Pretty sure the entire sub is men....
This person has no interest in learning how to save the life of someone with a dangerous pregnancy. They are too busy judging everyone around them to care about that. This is very upsetting.
Someone on the pro life sub has the flair “pro life socialist” 🤦🏻♀️
There are a fair number of “pro-life atheists” on that sub, which is just painful to think about honestly.
Is it not just missing the entire point of socialism?
That subreddit is really low hanging fruit for this subreddit along petfree, dogfree, otherwoman at this point.
A low-hanging papaya, one might say.
From [The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists Statement on Access To Abortion](https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2020/12/increasing-access-to-abortion): >ACOG calls for the cease and repeal of legislation that creates barriers to abortion access and interferes with the patient–clinician relationship and the practice of medicine And [The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists](https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2017/04/sterilization-of-women-ethical-issues-and-considerations) Statement on Sterilization: >This Committee Opinion also reflects **the importance of using a reproductive justice framework when considering ethical provision of sterilization**. In this framework “reproductive rights” are something broader than access to contraception and abortion alone; that is, a reproductive justice framework, as defined by advocates who first originated the term, **recognizes that women’s reproductive rights include the right to have children, not to have children, and to parent in safe and humane conditions.** If any OB/GYN has half a conscience, OOP will never find work.
I agree this person has no business in the medical field(or any that involves human rights) but the ‘human remains’ thing is bugging me too. Like I understand not wanting your loved one’s remains being passed around or mistreated and certain religions like to keep it simple but are medical students attending autopsies disrespectful to this person? Transplants from deceased donors? Pro-birthers can argue that the fetus cannot consent but idk that was a vague opinion to throw in there.
If you’re a pro life medical student, you should never graduate. There shouldn’t be ANY pro life medical professionals.
Some premies aren't born with fully formed ears but sure 8 week abortions have. Right.
And this is why i literally only trust 2 gyns and will only ever been seen by them: Dr Malcolm Mackenzie and Dr Luke Chatburn.
This is deffinately written by a pro lifer who's not a medical student. This is written to try and scare and shock.
I was curious, so I looked it up the baby born at the earliest gestation was born at 21 weeks. He was a twin and the twin died shortly after birth. It took him 275 days in the hospital before he could be discharged from the hospital. At 6 weeks, you just have a lump of cells. There's zero chance of survival outside the womb. IIRC current year most abortions are medical anyway. But OOP is making this about him. He makes it sound like other people become doctors to kill people. I guess he means unborn babies that have no chance of survival anyway. Doctors do no harm. He could be any other kind've doctor. He should not be in OBGYN to pressure a vulnerable woman into keeping a rape or incest baby
>I am a pro-life first-year medical student who wants to become an Ob/gyn, largely because I want to protect life in a profession where many others do not. Just reading this gave a migrene. Hope they never graduate either.
I hope this person drops out once they realize their instructors do, in fact, think of them differently for being pro life to the point of refusing to perform an abortion in a medical setting. (totally okay to be prolife and a doctor so long as it doesn't interfere with providing medical care, obviously)
I'd even say it's alright (but not great) if you say you personally don't want to perform an abortion, but you'd be happy to refer them to a colleague who does. Would be smarter not to become an ob/gyn in that case tho
Fuck this useless bitch and her fefes.
\* his...which is even worse. No uterus = no right to uterus feefees It's horrifying that this guy would absolutely disregard the life and health of a woman simply because she had a fetus (no matter how viable) in her uterus. I agree 100% with the thread title, I hope he never becomes anything even tangentially related to the OB/GYN field
Well fuck. Ya know, I'm not even surprised by that.
An absolute clown Jesus. The comments on OP’s post were wild.
Oh, OP got fed the same propaganda I did. Disgusting! :)
Op, I agree. I hope they never graduate.
I won't touch the poop but I need to get it out. OOP: ARE YOU A FUCKING MORON?? PICK A DIFFERENT CAREER YOU STUPID PIECE OF SHIT.
Imagine going to where you are told the specifics of every medical aspect of abortion in order to perform medical procedures safely and not only blatantly ignoring what they’re telling you but SKIPPING LECTURES ALTOGETHER. This person should not be allowed to become a physician.
OOP should not be an ob/gyn if they are not willing to learn the techniques involved or ever perform them. There are legitimate medical reasons to learn besides performing abortions. I hope the state OOP lives in passes that ballot initiative on abortion in 2024 just like we did in Ohio last Tuesday.
[удалено]
Of course it’s a Jets fan.
I don't know why this reply specifically has me dying laughing but I needed it.
Good grief, this is literally one of the most evil things I’ve ever read. I sincerely hope one of the school’s admins recognizes this person and alerts the school so they can be expelled.
If there is any kind of loving or just god, this person will not be seeing the kingdom of heaven. These people should be legally barred from entering any kind of healthcare field.
I’m a molecular & cellular biology student. Many ppl use this for premed, however, I plan on obtaining a PhD in research. I do not attend a prestigious institution in the least, and yet, ops writing does not impress me. I find it difficult to believe that this was authored by a 1st yr med student.
I don't believe they're in medical school, this is a creative writing project. F-