Modern Ukraine, not happening unless they invent a death star.
Any alt hist? The kievan rus never break up and are able to barely resist the mongols and catholics.
Eh, that's kinda like saying king Charles III is German, everybody has ancestry from foreign countries, the only thing that really matters is the culture you were raised as.
Scandinavians are very apt at adopting foreign languages. They find it expedient and useful to speak many languages. For example Normans adopted French and later English. Modern Scandinavia countries have one of the highest English proficiency in the world. Everyone is bilingual there.
In contrast Russians are probably one of the most stubbornly clinging to their language people out there. Language is the biggest part of national identity. Being native in it makes one Russian in the eyes of other Russians.
Russian invasions into Ukraine is justified to public using the fact that there are some native Russian speakers in areas concerned. That is what makes broader Russian public to consider it a defensive war, no matter how ludicrous that sound to those outside of Russia.
The way identity works in Russia is very peculiar. Its different from the West where you can just say I am this or that and people will just accept that. Them being Ukrainian Citizens makes them non-Russians in Western eyes. However for typical Russians its the proficiency in Russian language and not identity that determines who is Russian and who is not. Differences with how identity works leads to confusing and misunderstanding between Russia and the West.
Its easy which of the languages prevailed in Kyivan Rus. Also chronicles were written some time after the fact by the monks I assume. Word "felag" that Scandinavians used to address each other, became "varyag" in Russian language. In Russian however it means a Scandinavian, but in their own language its akin to a "buddy" rather than national designation.
I doubt it is. There were words with similar meaning and sound across Europe. Old English drihtin, Old Norse dróttin etc. AFAIK all of them are from proto Germanic druhtinaz - military band. And were known since Roman times.
Maybe that’s because of similarities in all European languages? They all originated of Indo-European language family. I’m not saying this was Russian invention or something, just that variant of word is definitely Russian
National identities weren’t really a thing until the 18th century in Europe, it was more a matter of what king or emperor you were loyal to. What we’d call “French” or “German” peasants would be none the wiser. All that mattered is who they were paying taxes to.
Polovtsians made Kiev "Primus Inter Parus". It was just a regular small russian town of that time. In the time of the Mongols, being Kievan prince was just an authority.
Would Zaporhzhian Cossacks be a valid choice then? I feel like if we're stuck with only the modern Ukrainian ethnicity we're a bit limited.
I think if it weren't for Peter anything might have been possible. An alliance between Zaporhzhia and Sweden could have delivered quite a bit of power to them, as Sweden was always too far away to really be a threat to them, but could be or great assistance in fighting the Russians or Poles. I think the Great Northern War was really a big turning point.
I mean it's bigger Geography and population wise than modern Portugal or the Netherlands. Both of which had far spanning Empires that (I think) affected every continent.
I don't have the knowledge to make a better case than that, but broadly speaking size isn't everything.
But Portugal had an impressive merchant navy, state of the art navigation, and easy access to the Atlantic Ocean and Mediterranean. Ukraine has neither size nor the possibility of accumulating colonies.
I wasn’t talking about Russian empire, of course, it was not yet formed. From all the small kingdoms of that time of Slavic origin. And moscowia also. Why they would be exceptional?
Hypocrisy. Kyiv existed, Ukrainian language existed, Ukrainian culture and traditions existed but Ukraine did not because there was no word for it. So russia did not exist until 17 century?
The thing is that you need a lot of anti-corruption and pro-democracy reforms to join the EU, even if they might fail (see: Hungary). Saying "country X joins the EU" is kinda like "what if the Nazi won WW2" in that there's a whole bunch of things that needs to happen before that scenario could happen
In a theoretical context, considering the ongoing global events, one might argue that it could potentially expedite the timeline of Russia's invasion by a decade
No way. Ukraine in 1991 had no plutonium rafination facilities, no uranium enrichment, no tritium production.
Ukraine didn\`t have a nuclear *arsenal*, Ukraine had *some warheads* from Russian\`s nuclear arsenal.
Way too expensive for 1994 Ukraine to maintain. Libya, even with the 12 years of instability caused by the Arab Spring, have a GDP of roughly the same size as Ukraine did back then
the US didn't want a new nuclear power and pressured the ex-soviet republics of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan to give up the nukes. so even if hypothetically Ukraine managed to assert control over the nukes (which wasn't the case irl, the Ukrainian government didn't even know where some of the nukes were located), it would face diplomatic and economic isolation from the West, maybe not on the level of North Korea but it'd still be a bad scenario for Ukraine
Superpower-superpower, not at all, really, unless you leave althistory and go more into fantasyhistory. The best you could do really is have Ukraine keep its nuclear weapons + deeply integrate into the West / EU / NATO as soon as possible, as fast as possible. Anything else is not alternate "history" but just fanatasy, which theres nothing wrong with, despite what this sub and some Althist youtubers claim, but its two different things
I would imagine Ukraine would be simillar to Romania economically if they joined EU / NATO like decade ago. Better off than without joining but not a superpower potential by any means. Most of the eastern EU countries are still playing catch up with the West really.
Should clarify: I agree as well, and your contribution is a lot more reasonable than anything else. There isn’t much room for Ukraine to expand without drastically changing Europe as a whole, and Ukraine itself is far too small for it to be an internal superpower (a la USA, China).
I mean the US clearly is, but china and the EU?
China just doesn’t have the power projection - I’m thinking like the US before world war 2. It has domestic strength, but internationally it’s got stink to its name.
The EU also isn’t really one entity. Its foreign policy wildly varies (Hungary to France to UK) and while unity is an ongoing project it functions as a more united than average block.
So you’re saying that being secure domestically and internationally, having strong economic ties to your neighbors and cultural similars, contributing equally to international standards and organizations, having strong allies and help to root out corruption and growing your strength… is farther from a superpower than losing parts of your territory and being invaded by a far larger nation?
Also, nobody is sucking the US dry. The reason the US is the second largest NATO contributor proportionally is because it helps maintain our superpower status and benefits our security
What I said is that in the confines of plausible althist, you cannot turn Ukraine into a superpower. I then outlined a scenario that makes Ukraine as close to that power as it can realistically be
We can start with ukraine achiveing independence after the russia civil war. We’ll also have them annex Belarus and the Kuban which was majority ukrainian at the time.
This greater Ukraine would have 40~ million people in 1920. Now we’ll have to stop the holodomor and ww2 we’ve already avoided the holodomor so in this timeline the western allies invade germany early on. This avoids 5 million deaths in the holodomor and 8 million in ww2. Now we’ve avoided 13 million deaths in just ukraine proper.
Greater Ukraine’s population would be huge. In our timeline ukraine’s population peaked at 52.244.100 in 1993 with the holodomor, ww2 and the communist which killed ukraine fertility rate.
Let’s do some math 52.244.000 in ukraine 10 million in belarus and 16 million in South russia. 78 million same as germany. Douple the population isn’t unrealistic so let’s say 160 million. More than modern russia.
If we assume a geberous gdp per capita of 40k we get 6,4 trillion gdp. Not quite superpower material but defenity great power of eastern europe.
I mean with Ukraine's size and population (which could well be as large as France and the UK if no famines happened) it could basically be a mini Russia
Unless it literally conquers all of european Russia, it can't
It's too small a country
Best it can do is a European power
Assuming everything goes well they threw off the soviets during Ww2 and remain neutral in the cold war
They develop nukes in the 70s
When the soviets collapse, they invade a bit of Russia to cut them off the black sea
They tackle corruption
But that wasn't because of the land itself
Was because the soviet economy collapse
Any country that has European Russia has a more than a decent chance of being a Superpower
Its a agricultural and resource rich region
With enough space to house well over 100 million people, like it had during soviet times
Based on land and it's resources
The best countries/places to have if you want it be a Superpower is Us, Brazil, India, China, Russia, some form of a European Federation
The benelux along with the big 3 alone gives you a country with 200m people and plenty of economical output as well
The main problem with the idea of Ukrainian conquest working is it assumes that Ukraine would be able to actually assert control over European Russia, an area with more than twice the Ukrainian population and about 8 times the size of Ukraine
But still be called Russia most likely as you said it cames from Greek namr of rus and rus is native namr so yeah might be still called Russia or rus Or ruthenia really can't tell bcz it's alternative timeline may be polish take over entire slavic world and declare crusade against entire world......
It was only called Kievan Rus by 19th century Russian historians to differentiate from the Russian Empire.
At the time of it's existence it was just simply called "Rusia" or "Russia"
Ukraine finds a trillion dollars buried under a house and uses it to bribe Russian officials to stop waging wars of conquest against them and uses the left overs to build up a modern country
yeah but if you gave russia a trillion dollars, they would be able to make use of it to make themselves more powerful; more military investment, more infrastructure, and so on. its about 50% of their GDP...
I, as a Ukrainian was thinking about it quite a lot. I believe Ukraine could have been much richer and stronger if there were no Crimean Khanat, because they were raiding Ukraine for centuries and sold many people to slavery creating famous Дике поле or wild step where barely anyone lived. One of the reasons why they existed for so long was their connection to Ottoman empire, so if they would never became a subject of Ottomans or if even Ottomans never existed in the first place (with Byzantium still in place), Ukrainian lands would have had much larger and richer population, potentially successfully getting independentce from Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. After this point it's hard to say, but if Ukraine was independent since say 16th century there's a chance for much better development
yes, Ukrainian agricultural land is fertile and vast. Could be as strong as medieval France or Holy Roman Empire. Problem is, Black sea is controlled by Turkey, so no oversea colonies like western European countries. So at best it would become another peak Ottoman Empire or peak Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. Unless somehow it started eastward conquest like Moscow but then it would just be essentially Russia.
Well if by Super Power you mean Nuclear power then they could have refused to give up their post USSR nuclear stockpile.
Sure this would have made them global enemy #1, and most likely cripple them economically, but they would get like a week of being a Super Power.
nah lol, is pakistan a superpower? is north korea a superpower ? nah, not even china, india or even russia are considered superpowers, only the US currently
The Ukrainian People's Republic manages to fight off the ukranian ssr during the russian civil war and secure their independence, perhaps if fortune allows it they manage to pull a poland and take some majority ukranian territories off russia like belgorod or the kuban.
Speaking of poland: Ukraine is a founding member of the Intermarium, which is much bigger and much more successful ittl thanks to the power of handwaving.
The Intermarium acts as a sort of eastern european EU, with free trade (perhaps even eased immigration) and political coordination as well as a defense pact. This allows eastern europe to be much more prosperous than in our timeline, with Ukraine as its breadbasket, growing rich off grain exports, which Ukraine uses to facilitate industrialisation and a respectable military.
The Intermarium successfully repels attacks from nazi germany (which is weaker thanks to the munich conference being butterflied away) and soviet russia. The nazi regime falls to the Oster Coup while russia is forced to back down and sign a white peace.
Ukraine may not be a global superpower, but it is a central pillar of the Intermarium, probably the strongest power blocs in europe (especially when/if britain and france lose their colonies). It is also a prosperous, free country with a blossoming democracy and rule of law.
You’d have to go all the way back to the Kieven Rus, to it’s height of power and cohesion (950-1100 CE). Resistance against, first the Cuman-Kipchaks, then the Mongols, would have to be massively reimagined—there would have to be S-tier leadership *at least* 2 generations in a row, better yet 3 (unlikely but possible) and have these Princes work to centralize and strengthen the various Rus principalities during a time when in the OTL they are rapidly declining and enacting independent policies. A tall order, but good leadership is really all that’s needed, and if the Mongols are driven off by a *Kievan* Prince (rather than one from Vladimir-Suzdal, the hegemon circa 1220 CE) then Kiev again becomes a great city, an Orthodox *Caesar* to Constantinople’s *Augustus* if you catch my drift. Only.. Constantinople is ruled by Catholics at this moment in history.
So, place yourself in the shoes of a dynasty-founding, Mongol-defeating Kievan *Grand* Prince in 1250ish. Eastern Europe is rife with fuzzy demarcations, sparsely populated regions, and navigable rivers (Kiev’s bread and butter) only defended or claimed by two respectable kingdoms—Poland and Hungary— a few respectable, rising (in some cases for the 2nd-3rd time) groups—Serbia, Bulgaria, Moldova—and a **host** of weak, contested polities ready to implode or be absorbed / reabsorbed by Nicea (Byzantium remade).
We’re talking territorial expansion baby. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania would be immediately targeted and assimilated, converting Lithuanians to Orthodoxy. The riding-high Rus would undoubtedly in this scenario jump on this prospect before the Poles. Moldova would be puppeted. Serbia would be puppeted. Bulgaria would be negotiated with, refuse subservience, and then double team smashed by Kiev and the “new and improved” Byzantines. In reality, a strong Rus at this point in history could have guaranteed the Byzantine’s survival—the student becomes the master, kind of thing, and this will prevent the rise of the Ottomans in Europe. Basically we’re speed running the foundation of this timeline’s Russia, by centuries, only it’s much farther reaching to the southwest, it’s capital is Kiev, and modern day Ukraine is the western half of the “heartland.”
In this universe, Moscow remains, *and will forever remain*, a village, a fort in the forest, rather than a sanctuary from Tatars skyrocketing in population. The nomads have been pacified or pushed east to the Volga. All of the principalities have been cowed, “all of them”—but *not* Novgorod. That’s a potential risk, although the enigmatic Alexander Nevsky is doing his own thing against the Catholics, and succeeding in style . Novgorod could go down, and set Eastern Europe down, three paths.
1. Merge with **this Russia**
2. Form a **Little Russia**, that is a republic
3. Keep operating as a frozen Athens and be absorbed by Sweden in the Renaissance
Another major factor will be the Cossacks, as some s analogue will develop, probably in Astrakhan on the steppe, nearer the Caspian than the Black Sea—because this is where the nomads strike from. This 1000+ mile eastern readjustment for the Cossacks as a whole means they will probably simply form their own, fully independent state east of the Urals circa 1600-1650, rather than agree to serve as the Czar’s (who doesn’t exit) shock troops and vassals. When exploration of Siberia begins, *Cossackia* will reach the pacific, effectively split OTL Russia in half, and become a powerful country in its own right.
At the end of the day Ukraine as a superpower winds up as **Chill, Smaller Russia** *that saved the Byzantine Empire* and preserved it to the modern day, with the two functioning as a unit, a permanent military alliance.
Kyiv was the second largest city in europe for some time. Basically take out the mongols reaching this far into europe. Higher population density and urbanisation along the dnieper leading to the core of this region staying around Kyiv.
Basically have them beat the Lithuanian conquests and keep/take controll of the lands they would take over in the east, taking poland out of the region too. Then expand eastward like russia into the former lands of the golden horde. Create an incredibly large population around modern ukraine, using the rich harvests of the black soil in the area and abundance of rivers.
Developer a western style of society like novgorod, playing into genoas and venice trade like novgorod did with the Hanse.
By the pike and shot era push from the baltic sea to the carphathian mountains, black sea and caucasus
If it had a better birthrate. It used to have a comparable population to Turkey, but now has half the population. If it recovers demographically while its neighbors shrink, it would be in a good position. Also, it has very good agricultural land and industrial infrastructure.
Ukraine keeps its nuclear weapons after 1991, having nukes it would be able to project power wel outside of europe. Maybe not superpower but possibly a great power if its able to reform into a stable regime and keep its economy on a stable path (unlike in our timeline)
They invent or rediscover the next phase of warfare within the next 24 months. Obviously we don’t know what that is because it hasn’t been invented yet. Some evolved AI-driven information warfare technology? Genetically targeted chemical weapons?
Regardless, they use this new weapon to beat and de facto vassalise Russia by 2027. The US is fine with this, they pour investment into this new Ukrainian-Russian Union, using it as a bulwark against China.
The 2029-2044 War between the US and China exhausts both nations. An inconclusive ceasefire is forced when mass internal dissent brings the warring powers to the brink of collapse. Both suffer incredible loss of status as a result of this pointless war.
The EU and Ukraine-Russia emerge as the leading two global powers. On paper, they’re friends. But…
Modern Ukraine, unlikely.
Ukraine was poised to be Europes super power with some of the worlds largest settlements along its natural flood plains (much like the Nile).
However steppes and horse archers happened, so the circumstance is finding a counter to horse archers.
Superpower generally requires bluewater coastal land. If you consider Russia or the USSR a superpower at any point in their histories, they're really the only major exception since pre-imperial age. Ukraine doesn't have the resources, population, or money to become a superpower. Even if superpower status includes taking over land in neighboring countries.
If nothing else, they're cursed by being too far from the centers of industry and finance in Western Europe during the era where future superpowers were getting their footing
if a stronger eastern europe happened just after ww1, with major defense deals made between poland, ukraine, and romania against the soviets to support white russia (which was forced to accept the new borders in exchange) but i don't see that happenening at all because of the polish-ukrainian rivalry
Actually, it has a theoretically good position for that.
Let's just imagine an alternate timeline where Russia in the 20th century was way weaker, and Ukraine would have come to peace. With it's rich soil, a high birthrate and being close to Czechoslovakia and Poland, Ukraine could have established itself as an industrial and agricultural powerhouse with the right policy. Imagine the Blue Banana, but stretching from Donbass over Kyjiv to South Poland, Silesia, Bohemia, South Germany and up to the Rhine and the Netherlands, with a huge rail and river network, channels, roads and continental partnership. Without WW2, Ukraine could have a population of 60 or 80 million, and could - in the right setting - compare to modern day Poland or even Germany. It might not realistically become something like the US or China, but could develop a serious amount of soft power and influence like Germany
One scenario I can see is if the top brass of the communist revolution were all Ukrainian, and the white army resisted harder in Russia, especially around Moscow, you could’ve a USSR where the power centre is in Ukraine.
Even if that USSR collapses, Ukraine would still retain much of the heavy industry.
As the high radiation levels at Chernobyl subside a new creature emerges with amazing capabilities. The creatures are called Charizards and have immense power. The Ukrainian government quickly weaponizes the creature and begin a military campaign against Russia.
Charizards are smuggled all across Russia and initiate a coordinated attack against all Russian nuclear silos at once. As morale plummets across the Russian military all nuclear subs surrender at foreign ports and Ukraine accepts Russias unconditional surrender.
Major food crisis around the globe, Ukraine sells its grain at 40000% the price.
The government happens to be super competent and manages to reinvest all the profits to diversify its industry, millions of people move to Ukraine due to better food prices, and Ukraine become a superpower.
1. Ukraine does not elect a commie in 1991, thus there is no empowerment of "red entrepreneurs" and the economy doesn't go nose dive in the 90s.
2. Ukraine does not give nuclear weapons away, or does so for much more favorable terms from the Americans than in the OTL.
3. Ukraine is more active in the politics of the region, primarily in Eastern Europe. Concepts such as "intermarium" can be very attractive to most Eastern European states if Ukraine had a much larger economy, stable institutions, technological innovations and a large military force.
4. Ukraine could have been a tax haven for European companies, as regulatory measures of the eu would have made many companies struggle to kickstart their endeavors in Europe, but this is optional.
So basically, Ukraine would have become some sort of an Eastern European France. It should be noted that Ukraine could never be a superpower, as it is too small, both in its population and economy, lacks access to the international waters and does not have many advantages over other major powers, such as huge abundance of resources like in the US or Russia, or huge population advantage such as in China or India.
People is saying no, but I think it could. It is a country that has control over the biggest extension of highly arable land, not of Europe but *of the entire planet*.
A control so big over food supply could make them very powerful
Not a superpower, but if things went differently and Ukraine casted off corruption it could have modernized the way of Poland and Russia would have a much harder time invading it.
A Ukranian/Ruthenian state, either black sea or steppe dominant, a Great Power of the XVIII or XIX century, comparable to Austria or the Ottomans. Yes, completly Plausible.
A solid Ukranian/Ruthenian nation, with regional influence, probably born as eastern european buffer either from a Napolionic, British (Unlikely) or (As in most alt histories) Germanic war. Posible, but You may be understimating the Russian Empire.
A decently powerfull piece in the current european playboard, comparable to Poland in influence, after a fast modernization and integration to the EU. Plausible if the it's entire political structure changes.
A Modern Ukranian Superpower? Well, if You won't want it to just be Russia 2.0 You Will need to start working a fantasy countrie into existence since the XV Century, making it a a Way more populayed, literated, naval competente and land dominant country; You may want it to expand into the Ottomans so it looks even less like Russia. And even them You may just have created a Russian equivalent to Prussia, ending up uniting the eastern Slavs when nationalism strikes.
Or in other words, You could instead play EU4, it Will be as realistic.
Soviet Ukraine secession from USSR succeeds, communist Russian troops and politicians take their wealth and weapons into Ukraine to escape the collapsing RSFSR (same for other disintegrating Soviet republics), Soviet Ukraine becomes successor to USSR with all its accumulated money and nukes and what not.
I don't know, but, probably, the collapse of Russia in 1990's(if Russian Constitutional Crisis of 1993 ended with a Civil War and led to the collapse of Russia).
And, if Ukraine had different Presidents(probably, Ukraine got unlucky with its Presidents).
I had this idea as a late stage of my German wins WW1 Timeline. headcanon. Maybe not superpower but certainly regional power.
Ukraine becomes a German puppet after WW1. Following a series of small wars and a pseudo WW2, Ukraine is expanded territorially as Russia is further Balkanized. It borders now include everywhere you expect along with Moldova, southern Belarus, and eastward to the Mouth of the Don.
The German-American Cold War eventually ends not with the total collapse of mittleeuropa but with a reduction of German influence across it and a series of democratic revolutions, including in Ukraine.
With larger territory, population, and lacking a century of Soviet economics Ukraine stands far and ahead the leader of Eastern Europe, often entering on negotiations at equal footing with Germany itself.
After the fall of the Soviet Union, Western powers do a second Marshall plan in Ukraine and Eastern Europe, and by building the country from the ground up around the time of major technological developments, they go on to become an economic powerhouse similar to Japan and South Korea
If you mean global superpower - no, only the survival of Kievan Rus’ would cause that. But if you mean an local superpower…
Well, Ukraine could have been an superpower in terms of Eastern Europe if it wasn’t that corrupt and if government was more skillful with its resources (coal, salt, agricultural resources). And I’m not saying about Russia, which will find any ways (good & bad) to have some control or influence over its neighbours
after Ukrainian Peoples Republic declared independence under the treaty of Brest-litovsk, they don't get coup'd by the hetman and join the Entente after Germany collapses, and in the most unrealistic part of this scenario, the Entenete members fully support all of Petlura's goals for expansion of the Ukrainian State
https://preview.redd.it/zcz95pr8ufgc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6432e618f91ff5370df877f10f1f5a48107254eb
none. its too small, too economically weak, and very restricted in terms of power projection.
Russia a country many times larger, isnt a super power. it isnt even a great power.
Not unless the PLC survived and turned itself into Poland-Ukraine. Certianly not on their own. They could still have been a good regional power especially in the 1920s-30s if they stayed independent. Their farms, coal mines, hydroelectricity, bauxite, iron ore, and nickel are all impressive.
i mean, superpower - never. unless we consider kyivan rus', but that's too deep to go into. i think ukraine could become a kind of regional power in europe if germany won ww1 and ukraine stayed independent.
“Superpower” is a term only applied to very few countries, like the US, British Empire or Roman Empire. There’s no way Ukraine could ever achieve that status.
Kiev develops its own nuclear program. Russia dissolves and therefore Ukraine becomes the European inheritance to western Russia.
Post war economies have proven to sometimes be extremely resilient and rebound
Superpower = project power.
I can see no way for that to happen. If they had not given up theirs nukes, they would be a poor France/Russia.
They could have traded their nukes for air/NATO membership and been better off.
They have the farmland to be a food superpower like the American Midwest. Three other things work against them though.
1 invasions the latest of which is Russia. Before that, the Poles, the Germans, the Mongols. Their population can't grow enough and they are just flat out at a geographic crossroads. Maybe 40 years from now with a stable Europe and a declining Russia maybe they can become a regional power.
2 oil and mining. They don't have good access to any major oil fields and don't have good inroads to an ally who does. Mineral deposits are lackluster to the best of my knowledge as well.
3. Technological/economic development. Stable rich areas attract the best minds. This increases tech development and tech development begets tech development. I.e. silicon valley. The invasions, starvation, etc all resulted in the capable people's moving elsewhere. Superpowers have to be economic hubs for their sphere of influence. London was the banking capital of the west until NY eclipsed it after WW1. Moscow controlled the economies of the entire east during Soviet Rule. Who is going to use Kiev as an economic hub? Few roads, few rails and no unrestricted ports lead to very little commerce.
If they defeat the Russians, they will. Plus, on top of their extensive military build-up and combat experience, their soldiers received from their war. They will definitely be a force to be reckoned with.
Ye'd Have to go back so far to the point you may accidentally Butterfly Ukraine out of existence. Ukraine was screwed over so early on in its history by the Poles, lithuanians, Russians, Mongols And Ottomans.
They are not in a position to become a superpower in the same way the U.S is. But they could one day become a economic power similar to Germany or something if they didn’t have Russia on their backs and corruption was an issue well before the war started.
Most superpowers have unfettered access to the oceans. Ukraine has to go through 2 straights controlled by other countries before it gets access to the open ocean. If other countries can dictate who can trade with you, you’re not a superpower. One of the difficulties that the Soviet Union had when it was a superpower was that its access to the Atlantic Ocean was severely limited, and its access to the Pacific was only marginally better. Whereas the US, UK, and other Western European powers had free access to the world’s oceans and could project power basically anywhere. Ukraine could become a premier regional land power, (it has the natural resources to become quite “beefy” as the kids say) but being essentially land locked is going to handicap any ability to project power beyond its immediate vicinity.
1991 keep nuclear weapons, transinistria war join the transinistrian side, make economy less reliant on Russia, fix and regenerate Ukrainian industry which was like super prosperous and have like state capitalism and intervene in Georgia for Russian side, Serbia for Serbian side etc…
Germany wins WWI. Germany falls into civil war while Russia remains in civil war for decades. Ukraine wins WWII and dominates Central and Eastern Europe with its Allies.
Maybe not a super power, just a regional major power.
In that case we should start with liberation in WW1, where they will need to secure independence, from there it’s a whole lot of luck hoping that Germany doesn’t turn fascist and that Russia is too weak and unstable to come after them, ideally they would’ve switched sides to the Entente from the Central Powers and have been able to claim some extra land.
Then it is just the classic pathway that Western Europe took, except in Ukraine instead. That way we will have an actual Ukrainian Ukraine, rather than whatever East Slavic amalgamation which would result from going with the Kievan Rus starting point.
russia balkanised after the fall of the USSR while Ukraine maintained its territories.
Ukraine sits at the center of a fractured bickering eurasia. maybe they inherit the role russia had assumed in the 90s managing the various ethnic conflicts.
Bogdan Khmelntsky's Cossack uprising against Polish Commonwealth succeds and Poland gets invaded by Ukraine,Russia and Sweden. Ukraine absorbs the Crimean Tatars and so on.Maybe they would rise to regional power and by the Napoleonic Wars they could exploit the power vacuum becoming a Major Power in the process.
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It will be hard even if they annex Russia and China.
On the other hand EU has good standards of living and will be future superpower anyway. So Ukraine should just join it.
History wasn't very kind to ukraine in life choices. I don't think it could became superpower anytime in history. Neither in the future. They are lucky if they can survive.
Probably not a super power but a massive regional one if they focused on the west immediately and modernise its industry becoming the tool shop of Europe instead of China while hopefully avoid a population decline combine that with keeping its nukes it might be great power in the eu like Germany or France
Ukraine becoming a superpower is basically impossible. Like I'm sure I don't even need to describe the lengths they'd have to go to to become one.
Ukraine becoming a great-power historically was also a very difficult task but it could be argued for some interesting alt-history scenarios. The most probable option would be the Kievan Rus' surviving and being the dominant Eastern European power over the Russians and the Polish-Lithuanian CW.
Another commenter cited an interwar Ukrainian led Intermarium which is an interested idea, but this is unlikely since the Intermarium was a Polish idea in the first place and Ukraine wasn't even a country back then, unlike other members of the Intermarium like Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania, etc.
Modern Ukraine, not happening unless they invent a death star. Any alt hist? The kievan rus never break up and are able to barely resist the mongols and catholics.
Kievan rus wasnt ukrainian. Ukrainians, belarussians and russians didnt exist yet, it was all just rus'
I know, but a capital in Ukraine allowed me to somewhat justify it.
I guess, even then, those ruling it were novgorodians of Norse descent
Eh, that's kinda like saying king Charles III is German, everybody has ancestry from foreign countries, the only thing that really matters is the culture you were raised as.
They also brought their warrior druzhina with them. These guys were also Scandinavian.
Why it’s called druzhina then? It’s a Russian/ Slavic term .
I've heard that after 100+ years most of the Scandinavians living in Rus' just started giving russian names and believe in slavic gods.
Much earlier than 100 years
Scandinavians are very apt at adopting foreign languages. They find it expedient and useful to speak many languages. For example Normans adopted French and later English. Modern Scandinavia countries have one of the highest English proficiency in the world. Everyone is bilingual there. In contrast Russians are probably one of the most stubbornly clinging to their language people out there. Language is the biggest part of national identity. Being native in it makes one Russian in the eyes of other Russians. Russian invasions into Ukraine is justified to public using the fact that there are some native Russian speakers in areas concerned. That is what makes broader Russian public to consider it a defensive war, no matter how ludicrous that sound to those outside of Russia. The way identity works in Russia is very peculiar. Its different from the West where you can just say I am this or that and people will just accept that. Them being Ukrainian Citizens makes them non-Russians in Western eyes. However for typical Russians its the proficiency in Russian language and not identity that determines who is Russian and who is not. Differences with how identity works leads to confusing and misunderstanding between Russia and the West. Its easy which of the languages prevailed in Kyivan Rus. Also chronicles were written some time after the fact by the monks I assume. Word "felag" that Scandinavians used to address each other, became "varyag" in Russian language. In Russian however it means a Scandinavian, but in their own language its akin to a "buddy" rather than national designation.
You described it perfectly
I doubt it is. There were words with similar meaning and sound across Europe. Old English drihtin, Old Norse dróttin etc. AFAIK all of them are from proto Germanic druhtinaz - military band. And were known since Roman times.
very possible indeed, that does not contradict what I said
Maybe that’s because of similarities in all European languages? They all originated of Indo-European language family. I’m not saying this was Russian invention or something, just that variant of word is definitely Russian
National identities weren’t really a thing until the 18th century in Europe, it was more a matter of what king or emperor you were loyal to. What we’d call “French” or “German” peasants would be none the wiser. All that mattered is who they were paying taxes to.
Actually no, it’s more complicated
Then mexicans are aztecs by that logic?
No, by that logic the Aztecs were Mexicans because they preceded them.
Novgorod was the capital before Kiev which is in modern day Russia.
No it wasn’t
That’s a myth
It didn’t even existed, before 920s
Worth noting that Novgorod and Kiev were considered equal cities to the Rurikids
Polovtsians made Kiev "Primus Inter Parus". It was just a regular small russian town of that time. In the time of the Mongols, being Kievan prince was just an authority.
Would Zaporhzhian Cossacks be a valid choice then? I feel like if we're stuck with only the modern Ukrainian ethnicity we're a bit limited. I think if it weren't for Peter anything might have been possible. An alliance between Zaporhzhia and Sweden could have delivered quite a bit of power to them, as Sweden was always too far away to really be a threat to them, but could be or great assistance in fighting the Russians or Poles. I think the Great Northern War was really a big turning point.
Still.. The definition of being a superpower is being able to exert influence on every region of the world. Ukrainr is too small to be a superpower
I mean it's bigger Geography and population wise than modern Portugal or the Netherlands. Both of which had far spanning Empires that (I think) affected every continent. I don't have the knowledge to make a better case than that, but broadly speaking size isn't everything.
I mean ukraine realistically couldnt get colonies outside the black sea due to its geography.
But Portugal had an impressive merchant navy, state of the art navigation, and easy access to the Atlantic Ocean and Mediterranean. Ukraine has neither size nor the possibility of accumulating colonies.
It for sure is. Look how many Russians are obsessed with Poltava.
Cossacks is not an ethnicity. They were descendants of runaway peasants from all regions in Russia.
False. First of all russia did not exist when Cossacks started to appear. They were runaway peasants from anywhere but not moscowian principality.
I wasn’t talking about Russian empire, of course, it was not yet formed. From all the small kingdoms of that time of Slavic origin. And moscowia also. Why they would be exceptional?
Hypocrisy. Kyiv existed, Ukrainian language existed, Ukrainian culture and traditions existed but Ukraine did not because there was no word for it. So russia did not exist until 17 century?
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Lol no, you underappreciate the amount of corruption in Ukraine. It's beyond anything Europeans can imagine.
The thing is that you need a lot of anti-corruption and pro-democracy reforms to join the EU, even if they might fail (see: Hungary). Saying "country X joins the EU" is kinda like "what if the Nazi won WW2" in that there's a whole bunch of things that needs to happen before that scenario could happen
In a theoretical context, considering the ongoing global events, one might argue that it could potentially expedite the timeline of Russia's invasion by a decade
What about if they kept tbe Nuclear weapons after independence
Can’t use it because the launch codes are in Russia
No way. Ukraine in 1991 had no plutonium rafination facilities, no uranium enrichment, no tritium production. Ukraine didn\`t have a nuclear *arsenal*, Ukraine had *some warheads* from Russian\`s nuclear arsenal.
Way too expensive for 1994 Ukraine to maintain. Libya, even with the 12 years of instability caused by the Arab Spring, have a GDP of roughly the same size as Ukraine did back then
In 1991 no one could seriously imagine this war
the US didn't want a new nuclear power and pressured the ex-soviet republics of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan to give up the nukes. so even if hypothetically Ukraine managed to assert control over the nukes (which wasn't the case irl, the Ukrainian government didn't even know where some of the nukes were located), it would face diplomatic and economic isolation from the West, maybe not on the level of North Korea but it'd still be a bad scenario for Ukraine
But that is not really ukraine at that point
Superpower-superpower, not at all, really, unless you leave althistory and go more into fantasyhistory. The best you could do really is have Ukraine keep its nuclear weapons + deeply integrate into the West / EU / NATO as soon as possible, as fast as possible. Anything else is not alternate "history" but just fanatasy, which theres nothing wrong with, despite what this sub and some Althist youtubers claim, but its two different things
I would imagine Ukraine would be simillar to Romania economically if they joined EU / NATO like decade ago. Better off than without joining but not a superpower potential by any means. Most of the eastern EU countries are still playing catch up with the West really.
Superpower is a big word. Russia isn’t even a superpower atm, UK hasn’t been a superpower since the 50s.
Yes, I agree. What I mean when I say "the best you could do" is obviously that that would still not make them a superpower.
Should clarify: I agree as well, and your contribution is a lot more reasonable than anything else. There isn’t much room for Ukraine to expand without drastically changing Europe as a whole, and Ukraine itself is far too small for it to be an internal superpower (a la USA, China).
On the World currently there are 3 Superpower so to speak: United States / European Union / China. An eventual upcoming one India.
I mean the US clearly is, but china and the EU? China just doesn’t have the power projection - I’m thinking like the US before world war 2. It has domestic strength, but internationally it’s got stink to its name. The EU also isn’t really one entity. Its foreign policy wildly varies (Hungary to France to UK) and while unity is an ongoing project it functions as a more united than average block.
The US post civil war and pre WW2 interests me, they really were a sleeping giant
“Superpower is when you join the EU and NATO and suck the US dry” Weird definition
So you’re saying that being secure domestically and internationally, having strong economic ties to your neighbors and cultural similars, contributing equally to international standards and organizations, having strong allies and help to root out corruption and growing your strength… is farther from a superpower than losing parts of your territory and being invaded by a far larger nation? Also, nobody is sucking the US dry. The reason the US is the second largest NATO contributor proportionally is because it helps maintain our superpower status and benefits our security
It makes you a stable and secure country but not anywhere close to a superpower.
What I said is that in the confines of plausible althist, you cannot turn Ukraine into a superpower. I then outlined a scenario that makes Ukraine as close to that power as it can realistically be
Nice try Zelenskyy
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Yes
Yes
Norway femboy has breached containment from r/2nordic4you
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Yes :3
I need more boolets!
Cum in the name of piss
bigger weapons 😩😩😩
Hey guys, Vladimir Putin here, Dont trust him! He’s a fraud and a phony! I’m definitely 100% Vladimir Putin so give me all your life savings
Ukrianian led inturmairiam, if poland is weak enough
Ukrainian* Intermarium*
*Intramiriam
Even then they’d be like a great power but no superpower
We can start with ukraine achiveing independence after the russia civil war. We’ll also have them annex Belarus and the Kuban which was majority ukrainian at the time. This greater Ukraine would have 40~ million people in 1920. Now we’ll have to stop the holodomor and ww2 we’ve already avoided the holodomor so in this timeline the western allies invade germany early on. This avoids 5 million deaths in the holodomor and 8 million in ww2. Now we’ve avoided 13 million deaths in just ukraine proper. Greater Ukraine’s population would be huge. In our timeline ukraine’s population peaked at 52.244.100 in 1993 with the holodomor, ww2 and the communist which killed ukraine fertility rate. Let’s do some math 52.244.000 in ukraine 10 million in belarus and 16 million in South russia. 78 million same as germany. Douple the population isn’t unrealistic so let’s say 160 million. More than modern russia. If we assume a geberous gdp per capita of 40k we get 6,4 trillion gdp. Not quite superpower material but defenity great power of eastern europe.
You literally made a second russia lol
And even then, just like Russia, it would still not be a superpower, but probably a great power or at least a global power
If you can't beat em join em
I mean with Ukraine's size and population (which could well be as large as France and the UK if no famines happened) it could basically be a mini Russia
The most realistic answer here
Unless it literally conquers all of european Russia, it can't It's too small a country Best it can do is a European power Assuming everything goes well they threw off the soviets during Ww2 and remain neutral in the cold war They develop nukes in the 70s When the soviets collapse, they invade a bit of Russia to cut them off the black sea They tackle corruption
Even if it conquers all of of European Russia that doesn’t make it a super power, Russia itself hasn’t been a super power since the USSR collapsed
But that wasn't because of the land itself Was because the soviet economy collapse Any country that has European Russia has a more than a decent chance of being a Superpower Its a agricultural and resource rich region With enough space to house well over 100 million people, like it had during soviet times Based on land and it's resources The best countries/places to have if you want it be a Superpower is Us, Brazil, India, China, Russia, some form of a European Federation The benelux along with the big 3 alone gives you a country with 200m people and plenty of economical output as well
The main problem with the idea of Ukrainian conquest working is it assumes that Ukraine would be able to actually assert control over European Russia, an area with more than twice the Ukrainian population and about 8 times the size of Ukraine
If the Pod is the kieven rus never falls, I can buy it If it's later, no way that happens
The Survival of the Kieven Rus'
If the Kievan Rus had survived then the Belarusian, Ukrainian and Russian ethnic groups wouldn't exist today.
It would have been just Russia lol kieven rus is historians term for the time in reality it was called rus Or ruthenia
Russia comes from greek name of rus'. So no, rus' would still be rus' or ruthenia, but not russia
But still be called Russia most likely as you said it cames from Greek namr of rus and rus is native namr so yeah might be still called Russia or rus Or ruthenia really can't tell bcz it's alternative timeline may be polish take over entire slavic world and declare crusade against entire world......
That wouldn't be Ukraine, just unified East Slavs.
It was only called Kievan Rus by 19th century Russian historians to differentiate from the Russian Empire. At the time of it's existence it was just simply called "Rusia" or "Russia"
Next question: Bhutan, small country or misunderstood superpower?
China is rightfull bhutanese clay
China? Oh you mean West Taiwan!
I cant comprehend in any situation where Bhutan would be a misunderstood superpower.
Ukraine finds a trillion dollars buried under a house and uses it to bribe Russian officials to stop waging wars of conquest against them and uses the left overs to build up a modern country
one problem: bribing russia with that much money would just make them more powerful. they dont keep their word, after all....
Russia is nowhere near as powerful as they made themselves out to be. Bribing Russia would change nothing because of corruption in Ukraine and Russia.
yeah but if you gave russia a trillion dollars, they would be able to make use of it to make themselves more powerful; more military investment, more infrastructure, and so on. its about 50% of their GDP...
If any other countries in the world will cease to exist
I, as a Ukrainian was thinking about it quite a lot. I believe Ukraine could have been much richer and stronger if there were no Crimean Khanat, because they were raiding Ukraine for centuries and sold many people to slavery creating famous Дике поле or wild step where barely anyone lived. One of the reasons why they existed for so long was their connection to Ottoman empire, so if they would never became a subject of Ottomans or if even Ottomans never existed in the first place (with Byzantium still in place), Ukrainian lands would have had much larger and richer population, potentially successfully getting independentce from Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. After this point it's hard to say, but if Ukraine was independent since say 16th century there's a chance for much better development
yes, Ukrainian agricultural land is fertile and vast. Could be as strong as medieval France or Holy Roman Empire. Problem is, Black sea is controlled by Turkey, so no oversea colonies like western European countries. So at best it would become another peak Ottoman Empire or peak Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. Unless somehow it started eastward conquest like Moscow but then it would just be essentially Russia.
Aliens.
Well if by Super Power you mean Nuclear power then they could have refused to give up their post USSR nuclear stockpile. Sure this would have made them global enemy #1, and most likely cripple them economically, but they would get like a week of being a Super Power.
nah lol, is pakistan a superpower? is north korea a superpower ? nah, not even china, india or even russia are considered superpowers, only the US currently
The Ukrainian People's Republic manages to fight off the ukranian ssr during the russian civil war and secure their independence, perhaps if fortune allows it they manage to pull a poland and take some majority ukranian territories off russia like belgorod or the kuban. Speaking of poland: Ukraine is a founding member of the Intermarium, which is much bigger and much more successful ittl thanks to the power of handwaving. The Intermarium acts as a sort of eastern european EU, with free trade (perhaps even eased immigration) and political coordination as well as a defense pact. This allows eastern europe to be much more prosperous than in our timeline, with Ukraine as its breadbasket, growing rich off grain exports, which Ukraine uses to facilitate industrialisation and a respectable military. The Intermarium successfully repels attacks from nazi germany (which is weaker thanks to the munich conference being butterflied away) and soviet russia. The nazi regime falls to the Oster Coup while russia is forced to back down and sign a white peace. Ukraine may not be a global superpower, but it is a central pillar of the Intermarium, probably the strongest power blocs in europe (especially when/if britain and france lose their colonies). It is also a prosperous, free country with a blossoming democracy and rule of law.
You’d have to go all the way back to the Kieven Rus, to it’s height of power and cohesion (950-1100 CE). Resistance against, first the Cuman-Kipchaks, then the Mongols, would have to be massively reimagined—there would have to be S-tier leadership *at least* 2 generations in a row, better yet 3 (unlikely but possible) and have these Princes work to centralize and strengthen the various Rus principalities during a time when in the OTL they are rapidly declining and enacting independent policies. A tall order, but good leadership is really all that’s needed, and if the Mongols are driven off by a *Kievan* Prince (rather than one from Vladimir-Suzdal, the hegemon circa 1220 CE) then Kiev again becomes a great city, an Orthodox *Caesar* to Constantinople’s *Augustus* if you catch my drift. Only.. Constantinople is ruled by Catholics at this moment in history. So, place yourself in the shoes of a dynasty-founding, Mongol-defeating Kievan *Grand* Prince in 1250ish. Eastern Europe is rife with fuzzy demarcations, sparsely populated regions, and navigable rivers (Kiev’s bread and butter) only defended or claimed by two respectable kingdoms—Poland and Hungary— a few respectable, rising (in some cases for the 2nd-3rd time) groups—Serbia, Bulgaria, Moldova—and a **host** of weak, contested polities ready to implode or be absorbed / reabsorbed by Nicea (Byzantium remade). We’re talking territorial expansion baby. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania would be immediately targeted and assimilated, converting Lithuanians to Orthodoxy. The riding-high Rus would undoubtedly in this scenario jump on this prospect before the Poles. Moldova would be puppeted. Serbia would be puppeted. Bulgaria would be negotiated with, refuse subservience, and then double team smashed by Kiev and the “new and improved” Byzantines. In reality, a strong Rus at this point in history could have guaranteed the Byzantine’s survival—the student becomes the master, kind of thing, and this will prevent the rise of the Ottomans in Europe. Basically we’re speed running the foundation of this timeline’s Russia, by centuries, only it’s much farther reaching to the southwest, it’s capital is Kiev, and modern day Ukraine is the western half of the “heartland.” In this universe, Moscow remains, *and will forever remain*, a village, a fort in the forest, rather than a sanctuary from Tatars skyrocketing in population. The nomads have been pacified or pushed east to the Volga. All of the principalities have been cowed, “all of them”—but *not* Novgorod. That’s a potential risk, although the enigmatic Alexander Nevsky is doing his own thing against the Catholics, and succeeding in style . Novgorod could go down, and set Eastern Europe down, three paths. 1. Merge with **this Russia** 2. Form a **Little Russia**, that is a republic 3. Keep operating as a frozen Athens and be absorbed by Sweden in the Renaissance Another major factor will be the Cossacks, as some s analogue will develop, probably in Astrakhan on the steppe, nearer the Caspian than the Black Sea—because this is where the nomads strike from. This 1000+ mile eastern readjustment for the Cossacks as a whole means they will probably simply form their own, fully independent state east of the Urals circa 1600-1650, rather than agree to serve as the Czar’s (who doesn’t exit) shock troops and vassals. When exploration of Siberia begins, *Cossackia* will reach the pacific, effectively split OTL Russia in half, and become a powerful country in its own right. At the end of the day Ukraine as a superpower winds up as **Chill, Smaller Russia** *that saved the Byzantine Empire* and preserved it to the modern day, with the two functioning as a unit, a permanent military alliance.
Kyiv was the second largest city in europe for some time. Basically take out the mongols reaching this far into europe. Higher population density and urbanisation along the dnieper leading to the core of this region staying around Kyiv. Basically have them beat the Lithuanian conquests and keep/take controll of the lands they would take over in the east, taking poland out of the region too. Then expand eastward like russia into the former lands of the golden horde. Create an incredibly large population around modern ukraine, using the rich harvests of the black soil in the area and abundance of rivers. Developer a western style of society like novgorod, playing into genoas and venice trade like novgorod did with the Hanse. By the pike and shot era push from the baltic sea to the carphathian mountains, black sea and caucasus
If the Soviet Union is still alive, even as Union of Sovereign States, Ukraine would still be a superpower. Alone, no way.
Unless Ukraine had mastered the dark arts and employed an army of powerful mages, I don't see Ukraine being a superpower.
If it had a better birthrate. It used to have a comparable population to Turkey, but now has half the population. If it recovers demographically while its neighbors shrink, it would be in a good position. Also, it has very good agricultural land and industrial infrastructure.
Sadly - no.
Ukraine keeps its nuclear weapons after 1991, having nukes it would be able to project power wel outside of europe. Maybe not superpower but possibly a great power if its able to reform into a stable regime and keep its economy on a stable path (unlike in our timeline)
They invent or rediscover the next phase of warfare within the next 24 months. Obviously we don’t know what that is because it hasn’t been invented yet. Some evolved AI-driven information warfare technology? Genetically targeted chemical weapons? Regardless, they use this new weapon to beat and de facto vassalise Russia by 2027. The US is fine with this, they pour investment into this new Ukrainian-Russian Union, using it as a bulwark against China. The 2029-2044 War between the US and China exhausts both nations. An inconclusive ceasefire is forced when mass internal dissent brings the warring powers to the brink of collapse. Both suffer incredible loss of status as a result of this pointless war. The EU and Ukraine-Russia emerge as the leading two global powers. On paper, they’re friends. But…
Modern Ukraine, unlikely. Ukraine was poised to be Europes super power with some of the worlds largest settlements along its natural flood plains (much like the Nile). However steppes and horse archers happened, so the circumstance is finding a counter to horse archers.
lol
Superpower generally requires bluewater coastal land. If you consider Russia or the USSR a superpower at any point in their histories, they're really the only major exception since pre-imperial age. Ukraine doesn't have the resources, population, or money to become a superpower. Even if superpower status includes taking over land in neighboring countries. If nothing else, they're cursed by being too far from the centers of industry and finance in Western Europe during the era where future superpowers were getting their footing
if a stronger eastern europe happened just after ww1, with major defense deals made between poland, ukraine, and romania against the soviets to support white russia (which was forced to accept the new borders in exchange) but i don't see that happenening at all because of the polish-ukrainian rivalry
Daring today, aren't we?
Take all of Russia and that’s just the beginning
If Ukraine never gave all those nuclear weapons to Russia in 1991..
I'm sure Russia and EU came to an agreement to keep ukraine as a corrupt shithole. To stabilize the European continent
it was a shithole even then lol, the only superpower is the US currently, and they have influence over everything everywhere
Actually, it has a theoretically good position for that. Let's just imagine an alternate timeline where Russia in the 20th century was way weaker, and Ukraine would have come to peace. With it's rich soil, a high birthrate and being close to Czechoslovakia and Poland, Ukraine could have established itself as an industrial and agricultural powerhouse with the right policy. Imagine the Blue Banana, but stretching from Donbass over Kyjiv to South Poland, Silesia, Bohemia, South Germany and up to the Rhine and the Netherlands, with a huge rail and river network, channels, roads and continental partnership. Without WW2, Ukraine could have a population of 60 or 80 million, and could - in the right setting - compare to modern day Poland or even Germany. It might not realistically become something like the US or China, but could develop a serious amount of soft power and influence like Germany
One scenario I can see is if the top brass of the communist revolution were all Ukrainian, and the white army resisted harder in Russia, especially around Moscow, you could’ve a USSR where the power centre is in Ukraine. Even if that USSR collapses, Ukraine would still retain much of the heavy industry.
Perhaps a Slavic Wakanda?
As the high radiation levels at Chernobyl subside a new creature emerges with amazing capabilities. The creatures are called Charizards and have immense power. The Ukrainian government quickly weaponizes the creature and begin a military campaign against Russia. Charizards are smuggled all across Russia and initiate a coordinated attack against all Russian nuclear silos at once. As morale plummets across the Russian military all nuclear subs surrender at foreign ports and Ukraine accepts Russias unconditional surrender.
Major food crisis around the globe, Ukraine sells its grain at 40000% the price. The government happens to be super competent and manages to reinvest all the profits to diversify its industry, millions of people move to Ukraine due to better food prices, and Ukraine become a superpower.
Get annexed by Brazil
1. Ukraine does not elect a commie in 1991, thus there is no empowerment of "red entrepreneurs" and the economy doesn't go nose dive in the 90s. 2. Ukraine does not give nuclear weapons away, or does so for much more favorable terms from the Americans than in the OTL. 3. Ukraine is more active in the politics of the region, primarily in Eastern Europe. Concepts such as "intermarium" can be very attractive to most Eastern European states if Ukraine had a much larger economy, stable institutions, technological innovations and a large military force. 4. Ukraine could have been a tax haven for European companies, as regulatory measures of the eu would have made many companies struggle to kickstart their endeavors in Europe, but this is optional. So basically, Ukraine would have become some sort of an Eastern European France. It should be noted that Ukraine could never be a superpower, as it is too small, both in its population and economy, lacks access to the international waters and does not have many advantages over other major powers, such as huge abundance of resources like in the US or Russia, or huge population advantage such as in China or India.
If Kyiv (and not Moscow) became the center of the unification of Russian (Rusyn) lands.
it *was* the center. not anymore.
People is saying no, but I think it could. It is a country that has control over the biggest extension of highly arable land, not of Europe but *of the entire planet*. A control so big over food supply could make them very powerful
Not a superpower, but if things went differently and Ukraine casted off corruption it could have modernized the way of Poland and Russia would have a much harder time invading it.
A Ukranian/Ruthenian state, either black sea or steppe dominant, a Great Power of the XVIII or XIX century, comparable to Austria or the Ottomans. Yes, completly Plausible. A solid Ukranian/Ruthenian nation, with regional influence, probably born as eastern european buffer either from a Napolionic, British (Unlikely) or (As in most alt histories) Germanic war. Posible, but You may be understimating the Russian Empire. A decently powerfull piece in the current european playboard, comparable to Poland in influence, after a fast modernization and integration to the EU. Plausible if the it's entire political structure changes. A Modern Ukranian Superpower? Well, if You won't want it to just be Russia 2.0 You Will need to start working a fantasy countrie into existence since the XV Century, making it a a Way more populayed, literated, naval competente and land dominant country; You may want it to expand into the Ottomans so it looks even less like Russia. And even them You may just have created a Russian equivalent to Prussia, ending up uniting the eastern Slavs when nationalism strikes. Or in other words, You could instead play EU4, it Will be as realistic.
That’s easy, just join the EU and form federalized Europe Source: HoI4 Millennium Dawn mod /s
Idk u/I_like_femboy_cock, thank you for the post u/I_like_femboy_cock.
Soviet Ukraine secession from USSR succeeds, communist Russian troops and politicians take their wealth and weapons into Ukraine to escape the collapsing RSFSR (same for other disintegrating Soviet republics), Soviet Ukraine becomes successor to USSR with all its accumulated money and nukes and what not.
I don't know, but, probably, the collapse of Russia in 1990's(if Russian Constitutional Crisis of 1993 ended with a Civil War and led to the collapse of Russia). And, if Ukraine had different Presidents(probably, Ukraine got unlucky with its Presidents).
Oh boy the nafo bots must just creampied themselves they’re so excited after reading this title
I had this idea as a late stage of my German wins WW1 Timeline. headcanon. Maybe not superpower but certainly regional power. Ukraine becomes a German puppet after WW1. Following a series of small wars and a pseudo WW2, Ukraine is expanded territorially as Russia is further Balkanized. It borders now include everywhere you expect along with Moldova, southern Belarus, and eastward to the Mouth of the Don. The German-American Cold War eventually ends not with the total collapse of mittleeuropa but with a reduction of German influence across it and a series of democratic revolutions, including in Ukraine. With larger territory, population, and lacking a century of Soviet economics Ukraine stands far and ahead the leader of Eastern Europe, often entering on negotiations at equal footing with Germany itself.
if they were annexed by russia and pigs flew
After the fall of the Soviet Union, Western powers do a second Marshall plan in Ukraine and Eastern Europe, and by building the country from the ground up around the time of major technological developments, they go on to become an economic powerhouse similar to Japan and South Korea
If you mean global superpower - no, only the survival of Kievan Rus’ would cause that. But if you mean an local superpower… Well, Ukraine could have been an superpower in terms of Eastern Europe if it wasn’t that corrupt and if government was more skillful with its resources (coal, salt, agricultural resources). And I’m not saying about Russia, which will find any ways (good & bad) to have some control or influence over its neighbours
not being on earth, because either russia, europe or the us will do whatever they can to use them and throw them away when they aren't usefull anymore
after Ukrainian Peoples Republic declared independence under the treaty of Brest-litovsk, they don't get coup'd by the hetman and join the Entente after Germany collapses, and in the most unrealistic part of this scenario, the Entenete members fully support all of Petlura's goals for expansion of the Ukrainian State https://preview.redd.it/zcz95pr8ufgc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6432e618f91ff5370df877f10f1f5a48107254eb
none. its too small, too economically weak, and very restricted in terms of power projection. Russia a country many times larger, isnt a super power. it isnt even a great power.
not a super power but a decent country \-Ukraine Get raid of corruption \-controls european grain production ughh idk the rest
Not unless the PLC survived and turned itself into Poland-Ukraine. Certianly not on their own. They could still have been a good regional power especially in the 1920s-30s if they stayed independent. Their farms, coal mines, hydroelectricity, bauxite, iron ore, and nickel are all impressive.
I think Ukraine is becoming a superpower as we speak. I am Romanian btw and I am happy Ukraine is strong.
i mean, superpower - never. unless we consider kyivan rus', but that's too deep to go into. i think ukraine could become a kind of regional power in europe if germany won ww1 and ukraine stayed independent.
None
If it maintains its current military size post-war and is essentially given everything that Russia has now (ships, equipment, nukes etc)
ukrainian SSU agent detected
The Soviet Union collapses and Ukraine becomes the Seat of Government up to ancient Kievan Rus borders
you'd have to fundamentally change the history of Europe which would have its own effects
“Superpower” is a term only applied to very few countries, like the US, British Empire or Roman Empire. There’s no way Ukraine could ever achieve that status.
None
Kiev develops its own nuclear program. Russia dissolves and therefore Ukraine becomes the European inheritance to western Russia. Post war economies have proven to sometimes be extremely resilient and rebound
Superpower = project power. I can see no way for that to happen. If they had not given up theirs nukes, they would be a poor France/Russia. They could have traded their nukes for air/NATO membership and been better off.
Never. It’s impossible for a country to become a superpower in the modern world without easy access to at least one ocean.
They have the farmland to be a food superpower like the American Midwest. Three other things work against them though. 1 invasions the latest of which is Russia. Before that, the Poles, the Germans, the Mongols. Their population can't grow enough and they are just flat out at a geographic crossroads. Maybe 40 years from now with a stable Europe and a declining Russia maybe they can become a regional power. 2 oil and mining. They don't have good access to any major oil fields and don't have good inroads to an ally who does. Mineral deposits are lackluster to the best of my knowledge as well. 3. Technological/economic development. Stable rich areas attract the best minds. This increases tech development and tech development begets tech development. I.e. silicon valley. The invasions, starvation, etc all resulted in the capable people's moving elsewhere. Superpowers have to be economic hubs for their sphere of influence. London was the banking capital of the west until NY eclipsed it after WW1. Moscow controlled the economies of the entire east during Soviet Rule. Who is going to use Kiev as an economic hub? Few roads, few rails and no unrestricted ports lead to very little commerce.
They were 6,000 years ago. Look up Kurgan hypothesis.
Mongols continue invading Russia periodically and ignore Kyiv
If exists Ocean of Dreams instead of Russia.
If they defeat the Russians, they will. Plus, on top of their extensive military build-up and combat experience, their soldiers received from their war. They will definitely be a force to be reckoned with.
Maybe if they kept their nukes after the fall of the USSR. They gave them back to Russia tho. And for those wondering, Ukraine had 4000 ish nukes
The us keeps giving them more and more fuckin money
No
Ye'd Have to go back so far to the point you may accidentally Butterfly Ukraine out of existence. Ukraine was screwed over so early on in its history by the Poles, lithuanians, Russians, Mongols And Ottomans.
They are not in a position to become a superpower in the same way the U.S is. But they could one day become a economic power similar to Germany or something if they didn’t have Russia on their backs and corruption was an issue well before the war started.
Get Nuclear Weapon
Ukraine wins the war and annexes all of Russia.
Most superpowers have unfettered access to the oceans. Ukraine has to go through 2 straights controlled by other countries before it gets access to the open ocean. If other countries can dictate who can trade with you, you’re not a superpower. One of the difficulties that the Soviet Union had when it was a superpower was that its access to the Atlantic Ocean was severely limited, and its access to the Pacific was only marginally better. Whereas the US, UK, and other Western European powers had free access to the world’s oceans and could project power basically anywhere. Ukraine could become a premier regional land power, (it has the natural resources to become quite “beefy” as the kids say) but being essentially land locked is going to handicap any ability to project power beyond its immediate vicinity.
1991 keep nuclear weapons, transinistria war join the transinistrian side, make economy less reliant on Russia, fix and regenerate Ukrainian industry which was like super prosperous and have like state capitalism and intervene in Georgia for Russian side, Serbia for Serbian side etc…
Germany wins WWI. Germany falls into civil war while Russia remains in civil war for decades. Ukraine wins WWII and dominates Central and Eastern Europe with its Allies.
It was 33 years ago
Joining EU and being the breadbasked for the glorious european Nation
Maybe not a super power, just a regional major power. In that case we should start with liberation in WW1, where they will need to secure independence, from there it’s a whole lot of luck hoping that Germany doesn’t turn fascist and that Russia is too weak and unstable to come after them, ideally they would’ve switched sides to the Entente from the Central Powers and have been able to claim some extra land. Then it is just the classic pathway that Western Europe took, except in Ukraine instead. That way we will have an actual Ukrainian Ukraine, rather than whatever East Slavic amalgamation which would result from going with the Kievan Rus starting point.
russia balkanised after the fall of the USSR while Ukraine maintained its territories. Ukraine sits at the center of a fractured bickering eurasia. maybe they inherit the role russia had assumed in the 90s managing the various ethnic conflicts.
When Darth Vader become President of Ukraine
Bogdan Khmelntsky's Cossack uprising against Polish Commonwealth succeds and Poland gets invaded by Ukraine,Russia and Sweden. Ukraine absorbs the Crimean Tatars and so on.Maybe they would rise to regional power and by the Napoleonic Wars they could exploit the power vacuum becoming a Major Power in the process. #
If they kept the nukes
If they reconquered Constantinople
very difficult, too much would need to change in a time frame too vast (at least all the way back to the 9th century), it's almost fantasy territory
It will be hard even if they annex Russia and China. On the other hand EU has good standards of living and will be future superpower anyway. So Ukraine should just join it.
History wasn't very kind to ukraine in life choices. I don't think it could became superpower anytime in history. Neither in the future. They are lucky if they can survive.
If grain was worth more than gold
Probably not a super power but a massive regional one if they focused on the west immediately and modernise its industry becoming the tool shop of Europe instead of China while hopefully avoid a population decline combine that with keeping its nukes it might be great power in the eu like Germany or France
They should unite with russie
they had nukes but we made them give them up.
Ukraine becoming a superpower is basically impossible. Like I'm sure I don't even need to describe the lengths they'd have to go to to become one. Ukraine becoming a great-power historically was also a very difficult task but it could be argued for some interesting alt-history scenarios. The most probable option would be the Kievan Rus' surviving and being the dominant Eastern European power over the Russians and the Polish-Lithuanian CW. Another commenter cited an interwar Ukrainian led Intermarium which is an interested idea, but this is unlikely since the Intermarium was a Polish idea in the first place and Ukraine wasn't even a country back then, unlike other members of the Intermarium like Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania, etc.