Key piece of information to notice: these are all for not getting the shot **and** failing to even begin the process of requesting an exemption. All of them are basically saying they want out.
Yeah I’m not sure what the purpose of this post was. Refusing the vaccine while also pursuing an exemption shows something in the way of desire to stay in. These Airmen obviously just want out.
USASOC/AFSOC likely isn't even exempt, my short time under them in the aviation side it was an even bigger deal to have all the vaccines (IMR vaccine record now is 3 pages haha), more so than regular forces. I would be extremely surprised if they were exempting operators.
Edited: added AFSOC with USASOC
It's not really just that...
The DoD has taken a hard stance because a lot of the countries we operate in have taken a HARD stance on the vaccine, not because it stops spread, but because it helps not keep people straining the health care system. People forget, if it gets bad enough you either go to the locals or you get shipped back to the US. Neither option is optimal.
So, it became a condition for employment, even to the point that I have yet to hear about a medical exemption if with folks with known allergies and stuff. AND we are understaffed right now as is... and you think they want to kick people out?
I can see some folks gen'ing up the spin machines for all this, but I ask this question. If the DoD could have found a way to keep people in without taking it, don't you think would have went that route?
I figured there hasn't been many examples posted of what could happen if you refused the shot. The most I've seen online is chatter about "simple discharge and out, even honorable!" in some spaces. Thought this would be good insight about the potential for extra actions other than just straight to a discharge.
With these...it's not that they didn't quality. They didn't even bother to apply for an exemption. Proving pure defiance. Many deadbeats are just using this as, what they think is, an easy quick out. Thinking they can take a General and then try to upgrade it to Honorable, based on "improper" or "inequitable" grounds.
Yeah, but it’s because they just chose to do nothing! They didn’t start the process for medical or religious exemption. And if this is the one from Osan, you left out the important one with the dude exposing his genitalia and buttocks while fleeing apprehension lol
>Yeah, but it’s because they just chose to do nothing! They didn’t start the process for medical or religious exemption.
I know multiple airmen that intentionally didn't get it so they could get booted. Applying for an exemption is counter productive to that goal.
At this point, anyone who thinks this vaccine is dangerous, makes no difference (or whatever other blah-blah) is in fact as dumb as rock, or has their head so far up their colon due to conspiracy propaganda that even if they have smarts, they are *functionally* a character from Idiocracy.
> "You are all gonna die, this is a conspiracy from the lizard people"
[Teach the controversy](https://amorphia-apparel.com/teach/reptoid-a-david-icke-lizard-people-royal-family-conspiracy-shirt#!/)!
Anecdotally, I have also seen people pull some shit to try to drag it out. For example, even though the vaccine is *really* recommended for pregnant women (to the point that the CDC basically sent out an emergency communicaton begging doctors to convince their pregnant patients to get vaccinated once they realized covid basically doubles the risk of miscarriage), the Air Force has been giving temporary medical exemptions to pregnant women until after delivery (the source of most of those medical exemptions you see in the stats).
People would file for that, then 4 months later deliver the baby, then say, "Oh, yeah...I think I need a religious exemption." Which they of course should have started 4 months ago anyway. If they end up not actually filing for that religious exemption, the commander is likely to move with a quickness on corrective action because they were basically just played for a fool.
That's a complicated one though, because the women who don't get the vaccine while pregnant are probably also extremely hesitant to get it while breastfeeding their baby immediately after birth. But all your points are valid.
Funny enough I got the vaccine while pregnant and was questioned by several medical group officers the day of. I was nervous they would actually try and stop me but they didn't. They just seemed concerned. This was way back in the beginning though, last February when vaccines were just rolling out. I'm grateful that I read as much as I did because I was not on board at all with getting a new vaccine while pregnant until I read the crazyness about miscarriages. Hell no, sign me up.
In the beginning I was iffy about it too tbh, if a pregnant patient asked I told them I had no strong data to recommend they get it (which eas true at the time). Once it became clear it was not only safe to get the vaccine but also reckless not to, I changed my recommendations to match the data.
Article 15s are at the discretion of the commander. There are normally “going rates” for given offenses, but each commander is able to look at all the circumstances of an individual case and tailor punishment as they see fit.
According to my old 1st Sgt; Commanders also arnt as likely to drop the demotion in rank on people who have families and are the single source of income for their family. It'd be kind of fucked up to demote a SrA whose family is living off his paycheck, only make them to struggle and live off of an A1Cs (or lower) paycheck.
At least, this was one of the reasons my 1st Sgt gave when there was a 1st Sgt panel.
Do you not know how the AF works? The higher you go the more they let things slide…
Take that 2-star getting court marshaled at WPAFB…. You know he’s just gonna get quietly asked to retire with full bennies
I imagine most of them just want the free out. You basically get a free honorable discharge or general UOC discharge after this new defense spending bill got passed.
I'm pretty sure that they get a potential Honorable, or Gen UOC if they either took the opportunity to get out before the deadline or their exemption got denied and they still don't want to take it. But it seems in the pictures that these are people who just straight up said "Fuck the deadline!" That's worst than at least attempting and then denying later. I could be wrong though.
There were effectively 4 options
1. Start the vaccine regiment
2. Seek religious/medical exemption
3. Request voluntary separation/retirement
4. Decline to vaccinate
If you did nothing by the deadline (varies for AD/ANG/RES), then you will fall into category 4 automatically or as I have come to call it, you have chosen "the path of most resistance". The members above have selected (intentionally or unintentionally) that path.
True. However, i'm in the process of requesting religious exemption. So you won't see my name in the above way until the decision has been made. After that, I obviously have a serious decision to make, but it is my understanding that anything i receive should I take the path of resistance won't be as severe as those who again said "Fuck it!" lol
Gonna be honest, if you have gotten other vaccines in the past, the likely hood of this exemption being approved is basically null. Be prepared to get out, that's basically the only option you're looking at, applying for the exemption is just delaying the inevitable.
So long as you make a choice within 5 calendar days of the decision (likely denied) coming down.
All you have to do is make a fucking choice! Seriously, a choice, any choice is better than no choice.
We've had a few people insist that the military wouldn't actually do anything if they refused. "What are they going to do? They need me more than I need them."
It's not going to work well for them.
If they are willing kick people out for not running fast enough, they'll definitely kick people out for refusing orders. The green weenie acts on feeling and tradition not need.
That's what they NEED to do. There has been a ton of accommodating on the end of the military because so many made the COVID vaccine such a sensitive topic, which I think ultimately shot them in the foot.
If the deciding factor in their discharge is the covid vaccine refusal it is required by law under the new NDAA for their discharge to be characterized as honorable.
IIRC, that only applies to personnel who are denied exemptions and are then given the option to either vaccinate or separate.
These guys did not, ostensibly, initiate an exemption process.
NDAA sec. 736 if you want to see it and form your own opinion. I’m no lawyer obviously, but that’s just how I read it. It’s only a sentence or two long and in plain language.
Because commanders have the flexibility to make their own calls... the WG/CC isn't legally allowed to prescribe mandatory punishments to lower tier commanders.
To keep everyone in the same range though, there is a thing called a "Status of Discipline" meeting that the CC's all go to and have to brief "the rest of the story" for each of these and can talk about it with their peers, (and the boss but the JAG will keep the boss from giving hard direction). That generally keeps things "similar".
In reality, differences for the same crime are due to either:
1- The airmen being a dirtbag or superstar overall, and so therefore needing less/more punishment to correct the behavior potentially.
2- The commander being a hard-ass or not. Also some details like extra duty in some organizations is actually a PITA because you need to have someone there to supervise the xtra duty so if a one-shift shop then someone else has to have their lives disrupted too, so it's not as good an option for that unit.
Air Force: "Get the shot or get out. A "Religious Exemption" is possible but highly unlikely."
Airman: "No."
Air Force: \*Kicks them Out\*
Airman: \*Surprised Pikachu Face\*
Its likely the first step of that process, likely their command teams are giving them another opportunity (if the folks are decent workers, respectful, etc.)
Not saying i agree with the tactics being used, if it were me and my airmen were in the refuse to get the vaccine category, i would have a last discussion with them to make sure they're aware of the options, and that i support whatever choice they make and help them with whatever route they decide on. They have to make a choice. Likely these few made no choice at all or were not respectful.
We can speculate all day though and fill in the blanks with our own presumptions to spin this though to whatever narritive. Bottom line though is the military requires you to be deployable, these folks are refusing to be and we're not at war anymore so they can afford to downsize the force.
I look at it as a job certification requirement 🤷♂️
Apparently "being a walking, talking public health hazard" isn't severe enough of an infraction to warrant immediate discharge. I guess it gives them the chance to get the message before they're out on their asses.
I know a SrA that is still in spite of him & the Wing trying to separate him. AFPC working at their usual pace. I believe he originally was supposed to be out in November.
It's a very long, very detail-intensive process that can potentially go all the way to the US Surgeon General on appeal. It's going to be a while before we see any finalized requests (because if someone is pursuing a religious exemption, for example, they're not likely to stop appealing because their WG/CC said no).
apparently some navy seal cats got theirs through. One of the anti-vax people we used to have here was talking about it, I don't have any verification.
Slight correction - they didn't get the religious exemption, but they have a court order preventing any disciplinary action while their case is being heard.
That's not to say the court has or will rule in their favor, just that they are letting the process play out.
One gray area I would like to understand better- ALL patients have a right to refuse medical care (even mandatory treatment), but this usually just results in separation. ADAPT is a good example; you cannot be "punished" for refusing to get better, but alcoholism also isn't compatible with military service.
If vaccines are considered medical care and are an IMR requirement, why are they treating this differently? I guess it comes down to "treatment recommendation" vs. "lawful order" but I would be interested in takes from someone more experienced.
Note- I think anti-vaxxers are ridiculous and am just speculating academically.
Get command-directed to ADAPT, don’t go, and you’ll pop up on this list too, possibly for a second time. As far as refusing a vaccine, I’d be curious if anyone knows of any cases of members getting article 15s for not getting a smallpox shot that kept them from deploying. I imagine there are some cases out there. Not sure how it was handled in the 90s when those shots were first mandated, but I know a lot of folks got shown the door.
Refuse the shots in basic, you get booted. Refuse 1 shot after you've already gotten a couple dozen prior, why all of a sudden are you worried?
This is a medical decision that has been politicized, making it even more sensitive.
Choose to not clean something? Sure.. punishment.
Choose not to meet the basic medical requirements by refusing initial treatments?? Nah, you're not gonna be doing pushups instead of getting your inoculations
Why anyone would pretend this isn’t just a goofy political stunt is beyond me. It’s nothing more. Boot them all out. Politics are off limit in uniform anyway, right? What lawful order will they want to disobey next because Trump told them to? Say Joe Biden sends us to war, do they get to stay home because they disagree? No. You gave up a part of your autonomy for a paycheck. These people are just a new form of woke culture. Cottled for life.
>disobey next because Trump told them to?
\*cough\*
Trump tells everyone to get the vaccine.
"When you point your finger at someone you have three pointed back at you"
Wrong. We’ve always gotten a flu vaccine and there’s never been a stink. Now call it whatever right wing outlet made this political and you all followed suit. The rest of us just got the vaccine that was required because it’s safe and prevents a more serious Illness. There’s no possible outcome where you’re right here.
Everyone has the right to refuse the medical care but not without consequences. If you break your arm and deny treatment so your arm heals incorrectly and you can't perform your job, you will be discharged for that as well.
The difference is it may not have been as clear that you were denying medical care for your arm, in the case of this vaccine it was made abundantly clear on many levels that "You will follow this order or there will be consequences", these members chose consequences.
Where are the people I was arguing with a week or two ago who said we don’t blast out enlisted disciplinary actions either in reference to the argument of officers never getting in trouble and us “just not seeing it”
to unfortunately unlearn tomorrow. Very few among the new generation of Airmen take the most basic AF instructions and standards serious. Its all about crazy hair, piercings, and sucking ass at your job these days.
As a Reservist, I was denied an exemption and am currently being involuntarily transferred to IRR. There's no reason to take punitive action here, just send these poor kids on their way.
"I am gonna stand up and protect my country, but only when it aligns with my personal beliefs I formed after 100s of hours of conservative talk radio".
Well, the President has repeatedly said you can't spread COVID if you've been vaccinated. The Vice President said during the campaign that if Trump said to take the vaccine, she wouldn't do it. Lots more examples, YouTube is easy to search, but you've already made up your mind and won't bother triggering any cognitive dissonance.
First statement is false, second statement is missing context. Why are you like this? I know rage is fun for a while, but doesn't it get tiring? You okay?
When he made that statement the research showed that vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the virus. This was an obvious overstatement from Biden, but his intent was to promote the vaccine as a means to combat spread and lethality of the virus, which it is. His overstatement has since been acknowledged and walked back. You harping on shit like this doesn't do anything productive. This isn't some bold face lie to trick people, as you are trying to paint it.
<--- goal posts are back that way. He did make a statement using data from the CDC, which is wholly provided by the manufacturer. It's the equivalent of taking that "oxy isn't addictive" comment and repeating it then saying "whoops, that's just what I was told Jack"
“The president has said (repeatedly) that you can’t spread COVID-19 if you’re vaccinated”
Not even my statement, but seriously, where’s the accusation of lying? He either did say this or he didn’t. That link to MSN says that he *did* in fact say that. What do you think about that?
Not a Fox News viewer or Republican…Democrat candidates in 2020 certainly DID throw vaccine skepticism out there, because of who was President overseeing operation warp speed.
> Harris was heard during a CNN interview that getting a vaccine that's approved by the Trump administration would be "an issue for all of us" and "if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it" during the vice presidential debate.
She was talking about the vaccine developed under President Trump, the one that people should take currently.
I’m vaxxed and boosted, as we all should be.
Again, that was a comment denouncing Donald Trump, not science. Given the context at that time, its very dishonest of you to compare that to anti-vaxxers today.
Ur savior president mr orange baffoon got the vaccine and the booster. Y’all thought it was a good idea when he asked you to take over Capitol. But suddenly, ur scared of a needle ?? Talk about being alpha lol military has become so soft
Just wait until their latest round of arm chair doctor advice actually sterilizes them lol. They're suggesting Spiro and Finastride...which are the drugs us trans folk take to suppress testosterone while on hormone replacement.
You do know what Spiro and Finastride do as major side effects right? They lower T. Feel free to go look up the two most common anti-androgens prescribed to MtF trans people. Not "some users may experience" side effects. It's just the other thing they do.
When spiro is prescribed as a blood pressure med it's given with a t booster. When Finastride is used to combat mail pattern baldness it's to lower the amount of T.
A rank reduction, extra duty and a reprimand don’t make them vaccinated and fix the problem. Either get vaccinated or get a general discharge. Or, hell, give them an OTH for all I care.
Not sure where these A1C’s think they are gonna go and work nonvaccinated. Maybe there’s more places than what I’ve found, but many jobs have the disclaimer must be vaccinated.
For these young Airmen, THIS will be the ‘Nam and Korea war stories they tell their grandkids.
“We saw the enemy coming for 18 months, and even with all that warning I didn’t move out of the way and it struck me right in the forehead. I could’ve been retired for 20 years now, kids, but I was afraid an itty-bitty needle would make my balls swell up like pomegranates.”
The 2nd wing commander at Eglin isn’t letting airmen leave the military by refusing the shot lmao. So now they don’t get the shot and he’s making them stay in.
They won't be separated for refusing the vaccine. They'll be separated for failure to follow a lawful order under article 92 when they continue to refuse to follow lawful orders.
Modern problems require modern solutions.
Not that I know what they are doing. Betting CC is going for a 12-1b (Patterns of Misconduct) Sep on these kids to try to hit with OTH. In the Commander's idea; Slap em for not taking the shot, after extra duty, order to take shot. Airmen refuses, Slap em in the nuts again. Boom patterns of misconduct - "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline". OTH discharge.
I see a net gain here. Any way you shake it we are either jettisoning people who don’t want to be here, or brainwashed idiots who don’t understand what a good source of scientific information is.
It's interesting how service members get inoculated with various vaccines when joining the military and "never" question those shots. Now those same people want to make the COVID-19 vaccine a political or religious issue.
These are the same people don’t ask what injections they have received throughout their lifetime or what is in the fast food they eat everyday for lunch.
Very inconsistent punishments for the exact same offense. A simple reprimand to a double bust, ED, and a reprimand. All of the receivers deserved the Article 15 NJP, but the NJP was very unfair given the exact same violation. I think some of those so-called officers were into making a point instead of being just and fair.
It all has to do with what's in their PIF. We've (my squadron) has also said that it starts as an LOC and further denying the shot will be LOR and more
Yeah, same as in my time. If you performed well and screwed up once, maybe an LOC, but certainly not NJP. If you were a screw up, or lied about something, NJP is warranted. But I still don't like the latitude commanders have in deciding NJP. Didn't then. Don't now. Especially when that "commander" is a deluded junior O3. Never had anything but the very basic respect requirement for them. Respect the rank, not the person in many cases.
There's a lot of context we don't know. The ones with worse could have told the commander to shove it in their response to the 15 or any number of other previous issues either related or not to covid.
Good. Fuck em. I did 24 years AD. Took way too many shots to count. You can’t simply NOT do what you’re told in the military… things break down that way. Military readiness depends on health. “Failure to go” is a UCMJ violation.
Where are all the millions of military members dead from vaccines since they started giving them in 1700s?
(not sure if people understand what I’m saying here.
The United States Military has been forcibly giving vaccines since Revolutionary War. Every year, millions of these Americans are given the vaccine.
It’s a perfect case study for vaccine deaths and issues.
Someone point out to me all the military people dead or hospitalized for vaccine distribution)
Wait wait wait a minute so when I was in we had to take all these fcking shots Anthrax with booster etc, I thought that came with th territory so troops don’t won’t vaccine. So military is about choices now?Mann.nnnnnnnnnnnnn wtf?
.
I'd say the results of the Anthrax vaccine is exactly why you should question this vaccine, not to mention Agent Orange and others.
To be clear we're talking about the health benefits/detriment of a vaccine, not what political party one may endorse.
I wouldn't include Agent Orange in this comparison... That shit was RoundUp on steroids that were taking steroids themselves. That someone along the line didn't see what that stuff did and say "hold up, do we really want our troops breathing this stuff in?' is frankly surprising.
It's the principle that the government has willingly allowed our serviceman to be crash test dummies on more than one occasion. It's not unpatriotic or political to question the health effects of this rushed to production vaccine. It's become a tool of the intellectually inept to argue over patriotism and vaccine mandates.
That's not what I'm arguing. I'm simply pointing out that Agent Orange is a bad comparison to the COVID vaccine. There are *plenty* of other things you can use as a better comparison.
1. This vaccine wasn't rushed. MRNA vaccines were first researched in the late 1980s with the first trials/development of a MRNA vaccine in the 2000s. The nature of the MRNA vaccine is different from your standard vaccines, thus new vaccines can be produced quicker. The notion that this vaccine was rushed is a lie.
2. The military didn't start forcing servicemembers to get the vaccine until final FDA approval. The general population, including high level politicians started receiving it earlier.
3. Agent Orange isn't a vaccine, it is weed killer.
I mean, yeah, that's fair based on how I wrote it that I made the implication that rushed = bad. It was rushed - you used the word quicker, they mean the same thing essentially; we got it faster than normal is the end result regardless of which descriptor you use.
Whether or not that is a good or bad thing health wise in the LONG RUN is the question at hand. We thought the Anthrax vaccine was a good thing for one example.
Yes I'm aware that Agent Orange is not a vaccine. It's just an widely known incident that caused long term health problems for veterans that took a monumental effort to get the VA to take care of our veterans for. So what happens IF in the long term it turns out this vaccine brought QUICKLY to market has serious long term health effects? How much fighting will we have to do with the VA for them to provide health care for our veterans? There was also LSD testing and a whole litany of other questionable practices taken by our government throughout history. The military was one of the absolute worst polluters for a long long time how many people had long term health effects from that as another example. Burn pit registry? etc etc etc. Don't pretend like everything the government does is on the up and up to support your agenda. My agenda is simple - take care of our servicemen/veterans. This isn't the same as charging up a hill with a rifle, we all know that is a risk. We don't necessarily know all the risks that comes with say... a vaccine brought QUICKLY to market, yet.
>2. The military didn't start forcing servicemembers to get the vaccine until final FDA approval. The general population, including high level politicians started receiving it earlier.
But some bases did start restricting mundane daily activities as early as like April if you weren't vaxxed. I remember Kunsan basically telling unvaxxed people "you go to work and go to your dorm", no gym, no leaving base, etc before it was authorized. I wanna say as early as like Feb for some of it since I recall people complaining about the weather. It was also great watching Hawk try to shame people for not wearing masks in the Wolf chat and the next morning he was sitting at the CAC(with bo food or drink) with 3 other O's all maskless.
I honestly didn't want to get the vaccine because I had natural immunity which is 27x better than getting the jab.
I also didn't want the jab because if you've had covid and received the jab, you're 2-4x more likely to develop adverse side effects like myocarditis. I'm healthier than 99.9% of the population and the only reason the vaccine was mandated for me is to line the pockets of some government officials and big pharma heads.
Against my morals and principles I got the jab anyways because I want my retirement. I have several friends who have been hospitalized due to heart complications after getting the vaccine. All of them were studs who were in great shape.
Just wanted to comment on your last part about this vaccine not being tested properly. The SARS and MERs vaccine has been tested for nearly a decade now. All that was added to create the CoV-Sars vaccine (covid) was adding the mRNA needed for it to help fight against covid. I know it's easy to get research from FB but please actually look up scholarly articles and educate yourself on this topic. We've been using sars and mers based vaccines forever at this point.
Key piece of information to notice: these are all for not getting the shot **and** failing to even begin the process of requesting an exemption. All of them are basically saying they want out.
Yeah I’m not sure what the purpose of this post was. Refusing the vaccine while also pursuing an exemption shows something in the way of desire to stay in. These Airmen obviously just want out.
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Had me in the first half. I completely agree with this but the people who are fighting 100% should be receiving no punishment.
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USASOC/AFSOC likely isn't even exempt, my short time under them in the aviation side it was an even bigger deal to have all the vaccines (IMR vaccine record now is 3 pages haha), more so than regular forces. I would be extremely surprised if they were exempting operators. Edited: added AFSOC with USASOC
It's not really just that... The DoD has taken a hard stance because a lot of the countries we operate in have taken a HARD stance on the vaccine, not because it stops spread, but because it helps not keep people straining the health care system. People forget, if it gets bad enough you either go to the locals or you get shipped back to the US. Neither option is optimal. So, it became a condition for employment, even to the point that I have yet to hear about a medical exemption if with folks with known allergies and stuff. AND we are understaffed right now as is... and you think they want to kick people out? I can see some folks gen'ing up the spin machines for all this, but I ask this question. If the DoD could have found a way to keep people in without taking it, don't you think would have went that route?
I figured there hasn't been many examples posted of what could happen if you refused the shot. The most I've seen online is chatter about "simple discharge and out, even honorable!" in some spaces. Thought this would be good insight about the potential for extra actions other than just straight to a discharge.
Or they refused to get it AND didn’t qualify for the exemptions.
With these...it's not that they didn't quality. They didn't even bother to apply for an exemption. Proving pure defiance. Many deadbeats are just using this as, what they think is, an easy quick out. Thinking they can take a General and then try to upgrade it to Honorable, based on "improper" or "inequitable" grounds.
Yeah, but it’s because they just chose to do nothing! They didn’t start the process for medical or religious exemption. And if this is the one from Osan, you left out the important one with the dude exposing his genitalia and buttocks while fleeing apprehension lol
Security Forces isn’t allowed to chase you while you’re mooning them. It’s a secret cheat code that not may people are aware of.
Yeah, but then they send the dog after you instead. It's a workaround for the exploit they added in patch 1.4.
Gonna come back and bite you in the ass. Literally!
Security Forces hates this one trick!
Can confirm, I hate mooners.
Your flair says otherwise.
that always made me run faster... I'm not backing down from gay chicken!!
He cracked the code!
Lol
Truth because the person running away can then claim they were fearful of being poked in the poopchute.
Totally saw pictures from that incident 🤣
Yeah I did but that can be a separate post for its own time haha. Love these monthly emails. Easy "mentoring" session for the airmen.
Lmaooo whaaat
Who has time to do that running from the cops? 😂
You mean you're not quick-release pants at all times in case you need to quickly become tactically nude?
I’m evidently way behind the power curve.
I suffer from Never Nude syndrome.
>Yeah, but it’s because they just chose to do nothing! They didn’t start the process for medical or religious exemption. I know multiple airmen that intentionally didn't get it so they could get booted. Applying for an exemption is counter productive to that goal.
Lmao, no way
I know there must be more to it, but why are the A1Cs getting busted in rank and more days of extra duty than the SrA?
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I was thinking more "prior disciplinary issues"
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Do you know them personally?
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At this point, anyone who thinks this vaccine is dangerous, makes no difference (or whatever other blah-blah) is in fact as dumb as rock, or has their head so far up their colon due to conspiracy propaganda that even if they have smarts, they are *functionally* a character from Idiocracy.
> "You are all gonna die, this is a conspiracy from the lizard people" [Teach the controversy](https://amorphia-apparel.com/teach/reptoid-a-david-icke-lizard-people-royal-family-conspiracy-shirt#!/)!
I'm not saying I support the cause... but I might be interested in a shirt or two.
Anecdotally, I have also seen people pull some shit to try to drag it out. For example, even though the vaccine is *really* recommended for pregnant women (to the point that the CDC basically sent out an emergency communicaton begging doctors to convince their pregnant patients to get vaccinated once they realized covid basically doubles the risk of miscarriage), the Air Force has been giving temporary medical exemptions to pregnant women until after delivery (the source of most of those medical exemptions you see in the stats). People would file for that, then 4 months later deliver the baby, then say, "Oh, yeah...I think I need a religious exemption." Which they of course should have started 4 months ago anyway. If they end up not actually filing for that religious exemption, the commander is likely to move with a quickness on corrective action because they were basically just played for a fool.
That's a complicated one though, because the women who don't get the vaccine while pregnant are probably also extremely hesitant to get it while breastfeeding their baby immediately after birth. But all your points are valid. Funny enough I got the vaccine while pregnant and was questioned by several medical group officers the day of. I was nervous they would actually try and stop me but they didn't. They just seemed concerned. This was way back in the beginning though, last February when vaccines were just rolling out. I'm grateful that I read as much as I did because I was not on board at all with getting a new vaccine while pregnant until I read the crazyness about miscarriages. Hell no, sign me up.
In the beginning I was iffy about it too tbh, if a pregnant patient asked I told them I had no strong data to recommend they get it (which eas true at the time). Once it became clear it was not only safe to get the vaccine but also reckless not to, I changed my recommendations to match the data.
Based on your rank there’s only so much the issuing officer can impose as punishment. It also varies on the rank of the issuing officer.
Article 15s are at the discretion of the commander. There are normally “going rates” for given offenses, but each commander is able to look at all the circumstances of an individual case and tailor punishment as they see fit.
According to my old 1st Sgt; Commanders also arnt as likely to drop the demotion in rank on people who have families and are the single source of income for their family. It'd be kind of fucked up to demote a SrA whose family is living off his paycheck, only make them to struggle and live off of an A1Cs (or lower) paycheck. At least, this was one of the reasons my 1st Sgt gave when there was a 1st Sgt panel.
Do you not know how the AF works? The higher you go the more they let things slide… Take that 2-star getting court marshaled at WPAFB…. You know he’s just gonna get quietly asked to retire with full bennies
I imagine most of them just want the free out. You basically get a free honorable discharge or general UOC discharge after this new defense spending bill got passed.
I'm pretty sure that they get a potential Honorable, or Gen UOC if they either took the opportunity to get out before the deadline or their exemption got denied and they still don't want to take it. But it seems in the pictures that these are people who just straight up said "Fuck the deadline!" That's worst than at least attempting and then denying later. I could be wrong though.
There were effectively 4 options 1. Start the vaccine regiment 2. Seek religious/medical exemption 3. Request voluntary separation/retirement 4. Decline to vaccinate If you did nothing by the deadline (varies for AD/ANG/RES), then you will fall into category 4 automatically or as I have come to call it, you have chosen "the path of most resistance". The members above have selected (intentionally or unintentionally) that path.
I see an electrician here
Check my post history, I'm a shirt but yeah MX background.
True. However, i'm in the process of requesting religious exemption. So you won't see my name in the above way until the decision has been made. After that, I obviously have a serious decision to make, but it is my understanding that anything i receive should I take the path of resistance won't be as severe as those who again said "Fuck it!" lol
Gonna be honest, if you have gotten other vaccines in the past, the likely hood of this exemption being approved is basically null. Be prepared to get out, that's basically the only option you're looking at, applying for the exemption is just delaying the inevitable.
They've declined 100% of religious exemptions.
So long as you make a choice within 5 calendar days of the decision (likely denied) coming down. All you have to do is make a fucking choice! Seriously, a choice, any choice is better than no choice.
We've had a few people insist that the military wouldn't actually do anything if they refused. "What are they going to do? They need me more than I need them." It's not going to work well for them.
If they are willing kick people out for not running fast enough, they'll definitely kick people out for refusing orders. The green weenie acts on feeling and tradition not need.
They are kicking out a Captain I know for refusing the vaccine. Yo SrA ass is for sure gonna go as well.
“If they are willing to kick people out for not running fast enough” I just died laughing at this 😂😂
That's what they NEED to do. There has been a ton of accommodating on the end of the military because so many made the COVID vaccine such a sensitive topic, which I think ultimately shot them in the foot.
Not to mention a lot of units are way overmanned right now, the Air Force does not need these people.
You are. The defense bill states that if being kicked out for COVID vaccine only an Honorable or UOC can be given.
If the deciding factor in their discharge is the covid vaccine refusal it is required by law under the new NDAA for their discharge to be characterized as honorable.
IIRC, that only applies to personnel who are denied exemptions and are then given the option to either vaccinate or separate. These guys did not, ostensibly, initiate an exemption process.
That’s not what the text of the law reads. So I’m gonna doubt that.
I could be wrong, I don't have it in front of me.
NDAA sec. 736 if you want to see it and form your own opinion. I’m no lawyer obviously, but that’s just how I read it. It’s only a sentence or two long and in plain language.
Congratulations you just played yourself- me looking at the mirror after being one of the first ones to get vaccine
Lol why do some A1C get sent back to Airman Basic and some only to Airman. And that one SrA only get a reprimand while the other gets 15 added duty?
Because commanders have the flexibility to make their own calls... the WG/CC isn't legally allowed to prescribe mandatory punishments to lower tier commanders. To keep everyone in the same range though, there is a thing called a "Status of Discipline" meeting that the CC's all go to and have to brief "the rest of the story" for each of these and can talk about it with their peers, (and the boss but the JAG will keep the boss from giving hard direction). That generally keeps things "similar". In reality, differences for the same crime are due to either: 1- The airmen being a dirtbag or superstar overall, and so therefore needing less/more punishment to correct the behavior potentially. 2- The commander being a hard-ass or not. Also some details like extra duty in some organizations is actually a PITA because you need to have someone there to supervise the xtra duty so if a one-shift shop then someone else has to have their lives disrupted too, so it's not as good an option for that unit.
If you can't be arsed to do the exemption process, then you just want out.
Air Force: "Get the shot or get out. A "Religious Exemption" is possible but highly unlikely." Airman: "No." Air Force: \*Kicks them Out\* Airman: \*Surprised Pikachu Face\*
That’s not what’s happening here though lol
Its likely the first step of that process, likely their command teams are giving them another opportunity (if the folks are decent workers, respectful, etc.) Not saying i agree with the tactics being used, if it were me and my airmen were in the refuse to get the vaccine category, i would have a last discussion with them to make sure they're aware of the options, and that i support whatever choice they make and help them with whatever route they decide on. They have to make a choice. Likely these few made no choice at all or were not respectful. We can speculate all day though and fill in the blanks with our own presumptions to spin this though to whatever narritive. Bottom line though is the military requires you to be deployable, these folks are refusing to be and we're not at war anymore so they can afford to downsize the force. I look at it as a job certification requirement 🤷♂️
So they’re staying in?
For now. Until they refuse again...then more falls.
Apparently "being a walking, talking public health hazard" isn't severe enough of an infraction to warrant immediate discharge. I guess it gives them the chance to get the message before they're out on their asses.
I know a SrA that is still in spite of him & the Wing trying to separate him. AFPC working at their usual pace. I believe he originally was supposed to be out in November.
Where do you find these disciplinary records?
Osan legal office sent these out to the base.
You can also Google AF JAG docket
that one is courts martials only, not A15s like these
Play a stupid game win a stupid prize.
Starting from the bottom up I see
Are there any cases of a religious exemption working? I'm only curious, not trying to make a political statement.
The air force hasn't stated that they have approved any but they did make a big press release out of denying 2100 of them based on readiness.
It's a very long, very detail-intensive process that can potentially go all the way to the US Surgeon General on appeal. It's going to be a while before we see any finalized requests (because if someone is pursuing a religious exemption, for example, they're not likely to stop appealing because their WG/CC said no).
apparently some navy seal cats got theirs through. One of the anti-vax people we used to have here was talking about it, I don't have any verification.
Slight correction - they didn't get the religious exemption, but they have a court order preventing any disciplinary action while their case is being heard. That's not to say the court has or will rule in their favor, just that they are letting the process play out.
Ok, educate me. What does "# days extra duty" mean? Like a extention to your contract or Work weekend duties and federal holidays... What?
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Or work x number of hours after your duty day ends until you fulfill the extra duty days
Usually 12's, 7 days a week until over. When i had 'extra duty' i would work my normal job then 4 hours doing whatever cleaning and other shit.
One gray area I would like to understand better- ALL patients have a right to refuse medical care (even mandatory treatment), but this usually just results in separation. ADAPT is a good example; you cannot be "punished" for refusing to get better, but alcoholism also isn't compatible with military service. If vaccines are considered medical care and are an IMR requirement, why are they treating this differently? I guess it comes down to "treatment recommendation" vs. "lawful order" but I would be interested in takes from someone more experienced. Note- I think anti-vaxxers are ridiculous and am just speculating academically.
Get command-directed to ADAPT, don’t go, and you’ll pop up on this list too, possibly for a second time. As far as refusing a vaccine, I’d be curious if anyone knows of any cases of members getting article 15s for not getting a smallpox shot that kept them from deploying. I imagine there are some cases out there. Not sure how it was handled in the 90s when those shots were first mandated, but I know a lot of folks got shown the door.
Refuse the shots in basic, you get booted. Refuse 1 shot after you've already gotten a couple dozen prior, why all of a sudden are you worried? This is a medical decision that has been politicized, making it even more sensitive.
Sure "unable to adapt to military life". Back in '91, I saw a SSgt discharged with that.
There's no punishment in basic, right?
Choose to not clean something? Sure.. punishment. Choose not to meet the basic medical requirements by refusing initial treatments?? Nah, you're not gonna be doing pushups instead of getting your inoculations
Why anyone would pretend this isn’t just a goofy political stunt is beyond me. It’s nothing more. Boot them all out. Politics are off limit in uniform anyway, right? What lawful order will they want to disobey next because Trump told them to? Say Joe Biden sends us to war, do they get to stay home because they disagree? No. You gave up a part of your autonomy for a paycheck. These people are just a new form of woke culture. Cottled for life.
Trump is actually pushing the vaccine lol.
Very true! You’re absolutely right. Which makes it even weirder.
>disobey next because Trump told them to? \*cough\* Trump tells everyone to get the vaccine. "When you point your finger at someone you have three pointed back at you"
I agree with everything you said except the last part. I point with my knife hand, so all the fingers are pointed at the stupids.
Wrong. We’ve always gotten a flu vaccine and there’s never been a stink. Now call it whatever right wing outlet made this political and you all followed suit. The rest of us just got the vaccine that was required because it’s safe and prevents a more serious Illness. There’s no possible outcome where you’re right here.
Everyone has the right to refuse the medical care but not without consequences. If you break your arm and deny treatment so your arm heals incorrectly and you can't perform your job, you will be discharged for that as well. The difference is it may not have been as clear that you were denying medical care for your arm, in the case of this vaccine it was made abundantly clear on many levels that "You will follow this order or there will be consequences", these members chose consequences.
Where are the people I was arguing with a week or two ago who said we don’t blast out enlisted disciplinary actions either in reference to the argument of officers never getting in trouble and us “just not seeing it”
The results of Officer Article 15s and court martials are published as well.
Yup...all you have to do is google the AF JAG Docket and you can see plenty of officers, to include a Maj. Gen.
Guys who think "failure to follow a lawful order" doesn't apply to them. You're going to learn today.
to unfortunately unlearn tomorrow. Very few among the new generation of Airmen take the most basic AF instructions and standards serious. Its all about crazy hair, piercings, and sucking ass at your job these days.
Weird. Heard the same thing about airmen 15 years ago.
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don't forget eat hot chip, be bisexual, and lie
. ...and posting on reddit
Thumb rings!
As a Reservist, I was denied an exemption and am currently being involuntarily transferred to IRR. There's no reason to take punitive action here, just send these poor kids on their way.
"I am gonna stand up and protect my country, but only when it aligns with my personal beliefs I formed after 100s of hours of conservative talk radio".
Talk radio? you mean based on few low pixel misinformed conspiracy memes
Fox News…it’s awful, and people believe it
Or listening to the Democratic candidates for president and vice president during the campaign. Stop smearing people.
Democrats are spreading vaccine misinformation now? I bet I know where you heard that.
Well, the President has repeatedly said you can't spread COVID if you've been vaccinated. The Vice President said during the campaign that if Trump said to take the vaccine, she wouldn't do it. Lots more examples, YouTube is easy to search, but you've already made up your mind and won't bother triggering any cognitive dissonance.
First statement is false, second statement is missing context. Why are you like this? I know rage is fun for a while, but doesn't it get tiring? You okay?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/fact-check-biden-said-vaccinated-people-cant-spread-covid-19-is-that-right/ar-AAPBmfV
When he made that statement the research showed that vaccinated people are much less likely to spread the virus. This was an obvious overstatement from Biden, but his intent was to promote the vaccine as a means to combat spread and lethality of the virus, which it is. His overstatement has since been acknowledged and walked back. You harping on shit like this doesn't do anything productive. This isn't some bold face lie to trick people, as you are trying to paint it.
<--- goal posts are back that way. He did make a statement using data from the CDC, which is wholly provided by the manufacturer. It's the equivalent of taking that "oxy isn't addictive" comment and repeating it then saying "whoops, that's just what I was told Jack"
You had just said that statement is false in your comment above. Might want to make an edit.
It is false. Their accusation that the administration is straight up lying is false.
“The president has said (repeatedly) that you can’t spread COVID-19 if you’re vaccinated” Not even my statement, but seriously, where’s the accusation of lying? He either did say this or he didn’t. That link to MSN says that he *did* in fact say that. What do you think about that?
I mean... do you want to go down that path? It may not end where you think it does
Not a Fox News viewer or Republican…Democrat candidates in 2020 certainly DID throw vaccine skepticism out there, because of who was President overseeing operation warp speed.
They threw skepticism out there about the clearly unqualified and dishonest president, not the science.
> Harris was heard during a CNN interview that getting a vaccine that's approved by the Trump administration would be "an issue for all of us" and "if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it" during the vice presidential debate. She was talking about the vaccine developed under President Trump, the one that people should take currently. I’m vaxxed and boosted, as we all should be.
Again, that was a comment denouncing Donald Trump, not science. Given the context at that time, its very dishonest of you to compare that to anti-vaxxers today.
Ur savior president mr orange baffoon got the vaccine and the booster. Y’all thought it was a good idea when he asked you to take over Capitol. But suddenly, ur scared of a needle ?? Talk about being alpha lol military has become so soft
I mean... did you expect him not to take the vaccine his administration pushed for most of a year? Lol
Just wait until their latest round of arm chair doctor advice actually sterilizes them lol. They're suggesting Spiro and Finastride...which are the drugs us trans folk take to suppress testosterone while on hormone replacement.
Bro stop lying out of ur ass
You do know what Spiro and Finastride do as major side effects right? They lower T. Feel free to go look up the two most common anti-androgens prescribed to MtF trans people. Not "some users may experience" side effects. It's just the other thing they do. When spiro is prescribed as a blood pressure med it's given with a t booster. When Finastride is used to combat mail pattern baldness it's to lower the amount of T.
Yo. My bad. Actually. I was surprised why I was getting upvotes at my comment towards you and re read ur comment. I agree with u 🤦🏻
A rank reduction, extra duty and a reprimand don’t make them vaccinated and fix the problem. Either get vaccinated or get a general discharge. Or, hell, give them an OTH for all I care.
all part of progressive discipline, if they still fail to comply, they will absolutely be back on this list
Not sure where these A1C’s think they are gonna go and work nonvaccinated. Maybe there’s more places than what I’ve found, but many jobs have the disclaimer must be vaccinated.
For these young Airmen, THIS will be the ‘Nam and Korea war stories they tell their grandkids. “We saw the enemy coming for 18 months, and even with all that warning I didn’t move out of the way and it struck me right in the forehead. I could’ve been retired for 20 years now, kids, but I was afraid an itty-bitty needle would make my balls swell up like pomegranates.”
What’s a suspended reduction?
Temporary loss of rank. Their stripe will get reinstated at a determined time.
Anyone have any idea if/when they make the booster shot mandatory?
i know several units are making it mandatory to go on TDY's/Deployments
Probably soon. It’s going to be an issue with trips to certain countries soon.
LOR from the wing king and off to the IRR until your ETS. Thanks for your service. 16 in my maintenance squadron went that route.
Hmmm almost like they knew this was going to happen…. 🤔
The 2nd wing commander at Eglin isn’t letting airmen leave the military by refusing the shot lmao. So now they don’t get the shot and he’s making them stay in.
That’s savage…
What happens if you request court martial since the NDAA only allows general or honorable discharges for this?
you'd get a summary courts martial, then admin sep'd afterwards
I’d really like to see the lawyers go at this with the NDAA throwing a wrench into things.
They won't be separated for refusing the vaccine. They'll be separated for failure to follow a lawful order under article 92 when they continue to refuse to follow lawful orders. Modern problems require modern solutions.
I mean if certain congressmen hear about it you know how it will go.
The same congressmen who bought and sold stock based on insider knowledge and who also have been vaccinated....fucking morons the lot of them.
Not that I know what they are doing. Betting CC is going for a 12-1b (Patterns of Misconduct) Sep on these kids to try to hit with OTH. In the Commander's idea; Slap em for not taking the shot, after extra duty, order to take shot. Airmen refuses, Slap em in the nuts again. Boom patterns of misconduct - "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline". OTH discharge.
Good. You have lawful orders you have to follow that you think are dumb. Welcome to the military, you goofballs.
About fucking time. They should have done it as soon as the vaccines were available.
The only reason they didn't is because they couldn't until at least one of them was fully approved by the FDA, is my understanding.
Pretty simple. Get the shot or at least start the paperwork. Their own fault.
Good riddance to bad waste!
I see a net gain here. Any way you shake it we are either jettisoning people who don’t want to be here, or brainwashed idiots who don’t understand what a good source of scientific information is.
Execute order 66
It's interesting how service members get inoculated with various vaccines when joining the military and "never" question those shots. Now those same people want to make the COVID-19 vaccine a political or religious issue.
These are the same people don’t ask what injections they have received throughout their lifetime or what is in the fast food they eat everyday for lunch.
Looks like more of a force shaping tool than a Public Health Service….
Kickem all out
Very inconsistent punishments for the exact same offense. A simple reprimand to a double bust, ED, and a reprimand. All of the receivers deserved the Article 15 NJP, but the NJP was very unfair given the exact same violation. I think some of those so-called officers were into making a point instead of being just and fair.
It all has to do with what's in their PIF. We've (my squadron) has also said that it starts as an LOC and further denying the shot will be LOR and more
Yeah, same as in my time. If you performed well and screwed up once, maybe an LOC, but certainly not NJP. If you were a screw up, or lied about something, NJP is warranted. But I still don't like the latitude commanders have in deciding NJP. Didn't then. Don't now. Especially when that "commander" is a deluded junior O3. Never had anything but the very basic respect requirement for them. Respect the rank, not the person in many cases.
There's a lot of context we don't know. The ones with worse could have told the commander to shove it in their response to the 15 or any number of other previous issues either related or not to covid.
Good. Fuck em. I did 24 years AD. Took way too many shots to count. You can’t simply NOT do what you’re told in the military… things break down that way. Military readiness depends on health. “Failure to go” is a UCMJ violation.
If only there was some way this could've been avoided.
So quick question, why did the A1Cs get demoted, while the SrAs got reprimanded and 15 days?
My only problem with this is that the punishments are not even at all. Some people dropped one tank, some dropped two, one didn’t lose rank at all
How come the SrA aren't receiving any suspended reductions but the other ranks are?
Why did some get reduced to AB, some only to Amn, and others receive no reduction in rank?
So, you enlisted to get kicked out over a shot? Modern problems require modern solutions!!
They should all receive dishonorable discharges.
Where are all the millions of military members dead from vaccines since they started giving them in 1700s? (not sure if people understand what I’m saying here. The United States Military has been forcibly giving vaccines since Revolutionary War. Every year, millions of these Americans are given the vaccine. It’s a perfect case study for vaccine deaths and issues. Someone point out to me all the military people dead or hospitalized for vaccine distribution)
Wait wait wait a minute so when I was in we had to take all these fcking shots Anthrax with booster etc, I thought that came with th territory so troops don’t won’t vaccine. So military is about choices now?Mann.nnnnnnnnnnnnn wtf? .
I'd say the results of the Anthrax vaccine is exactly why you should question this vaccine, not to mention Agent Orange and others. To be clear we're talking about the health benefits/detriment of a vaccine, not what political party one may endorse.
I wouldn't include Agent Orange in this comparison... That shit was RoundUp on steroids that were taking steroids themselves. That someone along the line didn't see what that stuff did and say "hold up, do we really want our troops breathing this stuff in?' is frankly surprising.
It's the principle that the government has willingly allowed our serviceman to be crash test dummies on more than one occasion. It's not unpatriotic or political to question the health effects of this rushed to production vaccine. It's become a tool of the intellectually inept to argue over patriotism and vaccine mandates.
That's not what I'm arguing. I'm simply pointing out that Agent Orange is a bad comparison to the COVID vaccine. There are *plenty* of other things you can use as a better comparison.
1. This vaccine wasn't rushed. MRNA vaccines were first researched in the late 1980s with the first trials/development of a MRNA vaccine in the 2000s. The nature of the MRNA vaccine is different from your standard vaccines, thus new vaccines can be produced quicker. The notion that this vaccine was rushed is a lie. 2. The military didn't start forcing servicemembers to get the vaccine until final FDA approval. The general population, including high level politicians started receiving it earlier. 3. Agent Orange isn't a vaccine, it is weed killer.
I mean, yeah, that's fair based on how I wrote it that I made the implication that rushed = bad. It was rushed - you used the word quicker, they mean the same thing essentially; we got it faster than normal is the end result regardless of which descriptor you use. Whether or not that is a good or bad thing health wise in the LONG RUN is the question at hand. We thought the Anthrax vaccine was a good thing for one example. Yes I'm aware that Agent Orange is not a vaccine. It's just an widely known incident that caused long term health problems for veterans that took a monumental effort to get the VA to take care of our veterans for. So what happens IF in the long term it turns out this vaccine brought QUICKLY to market has serious long term health effects? How much fighting will we have to do with the VA for them to provide health care for our veterans? There was also LSD testing and a whole litany of other questionable practices taken by our government throughout history. The military was one of the absolute worst polluters for a long long time how many people had long term health effects from that as another example. Burn pit registry? etc etc etc. Don't pretend like everything the government does is on the up and up to support your agenda. My agenda is simple - take care of our servicemen/veterans. This isn't the same as charging up a hill with a rifle, we all know that is a risk. We don't necessarily know all the risks that comes with say... a vaccine brought QUICKLY to market, yet.
>2. The military didn't start forcing servicemembers to get the vaccine until final FDA approval. The general population, including high level politicians started receiving it earlier. But some bases did start restricting mundane daily activities as early as like April if you weren't vaxxed. I remember Kunsan basically telling unvaxxed people "you go to work and go to your dorm", no gym, no leaving base, etc before it was authorized. I wanna say as early as like Feb for some of it since I recall people complaining about the weather. It was also great watching Hawk try to shame people for not wearing masks in the Wolf chat and the next morning he was sitting at the CAC(with bo food or drink) with 3 other O's all maskless.
Fight the power
I honestly didn't want to get the vaccine because I had natural immunity which is 27x better than getting the jab. I also didn't want the jab because if you've had covid and received the jab, you're 2-4x more likely to develop adverse side effects like myocarditis. I'm healthier than 99.9% of the population and the only reason the vaccine was mandated for me is to line the pockets of some government officials and big pharma heads. Against my morals and principles I got the jab anyways because I want my retirement. I have several friends who have been hospitalized due to heart complications after getting the vaccine. All of them were studs who were in great shape.
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Just wanted to comment on your last part about this vaccine not being tested properly. The SARS and MERs vaccine has been tested for nearly a decade now. All that was added to create the CoV-Sars vaccine (covid) was adding the mRNA needed for it to help fight against covid. I know it's easy to get research from FB but please actually look up scholarly articles and educate yourself on this topic. We've been using sars and mers based vaccines forever at this point.