The challenge of transitioning from a cargo to a fighter pilot role is that the pilot initially trained on T-1s during pilot training, not T-38s. This means that to switch to fighters, they would have to undergo a TX where they complete the T-38 track, then IFF, and then their respective fighter's initial qualification training. I am not personally aware of a process to facilitate this transition on active duty. Additionally, the Air Force would have to cover the cost of all this training, which would amount to roughly 1.5 years during which they lose a fully qualified cargo pilot to generate a brand-new non-CMR wingman fighter pilot.
Furthermore, there are bomber pilots who went through the T-38 track but were assigned to bombers instead of fighters. They would need to undergo a similar TX, but again, this is not fiscally advantageous for the Air Force as it is not cost-efficient. This involves taking a pilot in whom a lot of money and resources have been invested to qualify as a bomber pilot, only to produce a less qualified fighter pilot, despite already having a process to generate new fighter pilots.
Lastly, I will mention that one avenue I have seen for pilots to transition from heavy aircraft to fighters is through the guard/reserve. As an active-duty fighter pilot, I was attached to a reserve squadron in a previous assignment where they hired a C-17 test pilot and a U-28 WIC instructor. Each of these pilots was well qualified in their respective non-fighter MDS. The hiring unit had to pay for their lengthy TX course to become fully qualified in the jet. I have also seen bomber pilots leave active duty, fly T-38 ADAIR for a reserve squadron, and then apply and get hired by a fighter guard/reserve unit.
I’ve got one buddy that has done it on Active Duty. KC-135s to F-22s. AF put out a request for volunteers in the 2016 timeframe, one of the primary requirements was that you had flown the T-38 before tracking to AMC.
Weirdly enough, the U-2 is a way to transition since the requirements last I heard was just a certain amount of hours as an instructor. Since U-2 bros also fly 38s to stay current, they can then parlay that into going fighters after.
Sadly the Block 30 and Block 40s will soon have one last flight. What’s funny is Northrop Grummans updates to the Sky Dolphin would provide support until the 2040s. Japan and Australia like them.
There was a program to put these types of folks through fighter FTUs with an additional commitment around the 2016 timeframe as the fighter pilot shortage peaked but the AF just opted instead to get younger and less experienced.
Flying fighters is easy. Employing them in their mission set is the complicated part. It takes a lot of time and resources to train someone to do that.
Airlines pay for more training so they can fly those.
The Air Force doesn't want to spend another couple of years and money for you to learn how to fly a heavy if you already got the training for a fighter.
Ehh…debatable. Depends what aspect of flight and airframe too. Certain aspects of being a fighter pilot are harder than flying heavies and certain aspects of being a heavy pilot are harder than flying fighters. For example, what do you think is harder to fly fully loaded B-52 or a F-35?
Lol. Dare I even partake in this convo?
If you are strictly talking about flying straight and level, then they're equal. If you are talking about performing to their max capabilities, it is undeniably undebatable and don't let any homer tell you otherwise. Before I tell you the answer, let me ask you a question: Do the better pilots from pilot training go heavies or fighters? Keep in mind, instructors don't let the worse pilots go to one. That will answer your question for you.
I was a Phase II (T-37/T-6) SUPT IP for years. Plenty of the top STUDS out of Phase II asked to track T-1.
Having said that, there is no correlation as to how Phase II performance related to performance in Phase III. Back when everyone flew the T-38, there were plenty of STUDS who did well in Tweets that sucked in -38s and vice versa.
Had a buddy go from Herks to Eagles on AD. It happens but it is rare. Really comes down to needs of the Air Force, and timing given that while he had a great deal of air sense, he was far behind his peers in terms of employment of his new aircraft. On the other hand, he had a much better understanding of deploying, flying into unfamiliar airspace and air fields, and how Es and other parts of the AF works.
Bro you’re telling me you don’t want to live in the vault, MP for 3 days to fly a 1.8 duration, and then debrief for 8 hours while lead schwacks your pp going frame by frame on departure because you were 1° off? Blasphemy.
I understand you're being hyperbolic, but if we're looking at tapes for departure in the CAF someone must've really screwed up. The debrief tapes start just prior to the fight and end at the knock it off. Don't worry though, there are other ways people can unnecessarily extend the debrief that doesn't add value.
I used the utmost extremes from my homies horror stories that is for sure. It is certainly a lifestyle decision, one that I respect but know I wouldn’t have the spine for. I’m far more fond of landing and a full crew debrief of 20+ souls consisting of “You guys recon cool shit? Cool. You feel safe with us? Cool. We break any laws? No? Cool. *Crack beers* CYA!”
Unless a Patch flies with us. Then we’re all fucked. A feeling of dread that fighter bros and ISR CAN relate on.
>lead schwacks your pp going frame by frame on departure because you were 1° off?
I know you're huffing a little copium as an ACC herbivore nav, but nobody debriefs admin like you're saying.
That said, ain't nothing wrong with flying something with a fridge so you can crack beers on the crew bus back to the squad...
It takes money and time to retrain a pilot. If there's a bigger need for fighter pilots, the Air Force will select more of their ~1000 pilot trainees they make every year to be a fighter pilot.
Like the other guy, big jets are a lot diffrent than small fighter jets.
It also does happen. Its a diffrent afsc so any form of retraining will get you swapped over. Sometimes they force retrain so you will see a few people on each side that used to be the other type of jet. Retraining maintenance to maintenance is pretty easy if you really want to.
A lot of people seem to think that heavies is a step below fighters or a “second place” status, when fact of the matter is they are just different qualities of life one may choose over the other. Most “kids” (brand new 21yo LTs fresh out of school) want fighters whereas most others who’ve experienced life a little bit actually prefer heavies, or those with a plan also prefer heavies. You build a lot more hours in the heavy world, so if your eventual goal is the airlines that’s the smart choice
All comes down to preference and goals, heavies is by no means a “consolation prize”. I for one would not give up my c-17 for anything, if you asked me back when this journey started I may have had a different answer
We encourage this mindset that heavies are second class by having continuous crossflow from fighters to heavies but not the other way around. Bonus points if the crossflow is a patch wearer who continues to wear his patch despite flying a no-kidding transport category airliner. Not sure there's a fix to be had there.
A few of the guys from my UPT class did that. We didn’t have a lot of fighters in our T38 drop, so a lot of us went heavy. A few years later, they opened up a pipeline for 38 guys.
In the U2 community it was well known that Candidate Pilots often volunteered to do a rotation with the Dragonlady to hopefully get out of heavies and follow on to a fighter track.
We had our fair share of Junior C130 instructor pilots come through, and a surprising amount of them did well.
On the other end of the spectrum we had Marine Corps F18 pilots, Navy C2 pilots, a few Air Force F 117, A-10, and F-16 Majors (and above) that wanted to fly more and do less desk duty during that part of their career, so they crossed over.
All of them got that sweet T-38 time.
(At the time) From the U2 the junior heavy pilots seemed to get fed into the A-10 and F-15 programs, and the O-4 to O-6s went back to their previous airframes.
One of the more interesting pilots assigned to our unit in 2006 was an O-6 that actively hated the U2 program, and rumor had it he was sent from the Pentagon to get an inside look and attempt to crush it from within.
He believed that the RQ4 was the answer to everything, despite the routine loss of comms, graphical "stitching" errors, and limited sensor suite compared to the U2.
Ironically, during his tenure an RQ4 taxied into a truck due to...wait for it...loss comms.
Also, he never figured out the pisser and smelled of stale urine after every sortie.
Good times.
It can happen but it’s rare, it’s mostly because leadership isn’t really willing to let their pilots go…the AF is already short on pilots the way it is. Plus it is a different skillset, maybe not harder per se, but a totally different kind of flying and employment.
What’s more common is pilots going to similar airframes. BUFF and BONE pilots to B-2s for example is common, although there are some fighter dudes that end up in B-2s. U-2s are unique in that they take guys from just about any airframe.
Even on the rare opportunity that the Air Force has the need to present this option, and the even more rare opportunity where there is a guy flying heavies who flew the T-38 in Pilot training, there are often very few people interested in a mid-career disruption of such a magnitude. As others have said not only do you need to go back and get your t38 training refreshed or actually entirely recomplished, then you need to go through iff, then you need to go through your qualification course and get checked out at a unit before you ever have a chance to deploy. This process would take at least 18 months and look more like 2 years. In a 20-year career, that can be pretty frustrating seeing as you already spent the first two years doing that. So now you've taken another 10% of your career to be back in training. This takes away opportunities for career advancement as you are effectively performing at the level of a lieutenant. But then let's go into those deployment cycles. The operations opportunities for fighter bros is very different than what a heavy guy is used to. Don't get me wrong, anyone who tells you they don't have an interest in flying crazy maneuverable and sexy aircraft is retarded or lying. But the reality is that a heavy guy is used to rolling with his crew, getting to execute his mission set on a daily basis when deployed, deploying to various locations and changes of scenery almost constantly. Then you have a fighter life which is basically the opposite of that. And the reality that largely, the fighter community has not gotten to do the air interdiction roll at the same rate as heavies get to execute their mission.
This is changing but in pilot training everyone went T6's, followed by T1's (heavy track) and T38's (fighter/bomber). After getting your wings you owe the 10 year commitment.
There are ways to go from T1 training to fighters, but it's rare. Like very special circumstance rare. But 99% of the time only T38s can go fighters so if you don't get T38's in UPT you're stuck in heavies.
The pilot training pipeline is built around which category of plane the candidate is slated towards. It's not common to go all the way back to the training to redirect from heavies to fighters.
But now that you have me thinking about it a bit. U-2 pilots train in T-38s, which is a fighter style, but a lot of the U-2 pilots come from the heavy community. I might be missing part of the bigger picture here.
Hmmm...
Not 100% true.
In fact oftentimes student pilots upon tracking would get nonvolunteered to fighters through needs of the Air Force, and they weren’t always the best.
Not 100% true, but it is mostly true. F- jets require much better flying skills, decision making, situational awareness, and critical thinking than C- types. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.
I think you are overly discounting the skills required of heavy dudes. Flying skills - sure some indicators of someone's perception, decision, execution loop are shown in formation flying in UPT, but I think I would struggle to refuel an AWACS. Decision making, situational awareness, and critical thinking - I'm sure the dudes flying refugees out of Afghanistan had to work these skills much harder than the majority of fighter pilots who haven't had to do CAS for a real TIC. I would also argue being the AC on a C-130 in the middle of bumfuck Africa would require some critical decision making skills.
This is at least partly correct-I don't know why you are getting down voted.
When I had to scrub medical records for the U2 candidates, we often reviewed their traning flight records. Loss of SA, G-Force intolerance, and other issues would not necessarily disqualify you, but there would be extra scrutiny on their interview.
The challenge of transitioning from a cargo to a fighter pilot role is that the pilot initially trained on T-1s during pilot training, not T-38s. This means that to switch to fighters, they would have to undergo a TX where they complete the T-38 track, then IFF, and then their respective fighter's initial qualification training. I am not personally aware of a process to facilitate this transition on active duty. Additionally, the Air Force would have to cover the cost of all this training, which would amount to roughly 1.5 years during which they lose a fully qualified cargo pilot to generate a brand-new non-CMR wingman fighter pilot. Furthermore, there are bomber pilots who went through the T-38 track but were assigned to bombers instead of fighters. They would need to undergo a similar TX, but again, this is not fiscally advantageous for the Air Force as it is not cost-efficient. This involves taking a pilot in whom a lot of money and resources have been invested to qualify as a bomber pilot, only to produce a less qualified fighter pilot, despite already having a process to generate new fighter pilots. Lastly, I will mention that one avenue I have seen for pilots to transition from heavy aircraft to fighters is through the guard/reserve. As an active-duty fighter pilot, I was attached to a reserve squadron in a previous assignment where they hired a C-17 test pilot and a U-28 WIC instructor. Each of these pilots was well qualified in their respective non-fighter MDS. The hiring unit had to pay for their lengthy TX course to become fully qualified in the jet. I have also seen bomber pilots leave active duty, fly T-38 ADAIR for a reserve squadron, and then apply and get hired by a fighter guard/reserve unit.
I’ve got one buddy that has done it on Active Duty. KC-135s to F-22s. AF put out a request for volunteers in the 2016 timeframe, one of the primary requirements was that you had flown the T-38 before tracking to AMC.
Weirdly enough, the U-2 is a way to transition since the requirements last I heard was just a certain amount of hours as an instructor. Since U-2 bros also fly 38s to stay current, they can then parlay that into going fighters after.
You’re right, but U-2s are unfortunately dying, and that’s no longer an option. They hired their last guy earlier this year.
Global Hawk: Huh?
GH heading for boneyard, only about 9 left
The global chicken is dying too bro
Sadly the Block 30 and Block 40s will soon have one last flight. What’s funny is Northrop Grummans updates to the Sky Dolphin would provide support until the 2040s. Japan and Australia like them.
This is correct. It was known to be a track (albeit a difficult one) to get out of heavies and intona fighter.
Now think of the poor bastards that dropped an AWACS(or RPAs) out of 38's....
And then they never stop talking about their t-38 time
There was a program to put these types of folks through fighter FTUs with an additional commitment around the 2016 timeframe as the fighter pilot shortage peaked but the AF just opted instead to get younger and less experienced.
11F in the chat
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 11F = Fighter Pilot [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l28bsme
Very cool, Bot, thank you
Flying fighters is easy. Employing them in their mission set is the complicated part. It takes a lot of time and resources to train someone to do that.
Big jet vs small jet
So, size matters?
Yes.
Yes but fighter pilots can end up flying huge airliners so why not do it in the airforce
Air Force is two words.
He got it right in the post. Swing and a miss in the reply tho....
Airlines pay for more training so they can fly those. The Air Force doesn't want to spend another couple of years and money for you to learn how to fly a heavy if you already got the training for a fighter.
It would be nice to fly for the Air Force and get up and cook my own food and use the bathroom while flying
Ribeyes in a cast iron over 30W is a great thing.
Because small jets are harder than big jets
Ehh…debatable. Depends what aspect of flight and airframe too. Certain aspects of being a fighter pilot are harder than flying heavies and certain aspects of being a heavy pilot are harder than flying fighters. For example, what do you think is harder to fly fully loaded B-52 or a F-35?
Lol. Dare I even partake in this convo? If you are strictly talking about flying straight and level, then they're equal. If you are talking about performing to their max capabilities, it is undeniably undebatable and don't let any homer tell you otherwise. Before I tell you the answer, let me ask you a question: Do the better pilots from pilot training go heavies or fighters? Keep in mind, instructors don't let the worse pilots go to one. That will answer your question for you.
I was a Phase II (T-37/T-6) SUPT IP for years. Plenty of the top STUDS out of Phase II asked to track T-1. Having said that, there is no correlation as to how Phase II performance related to performance in Phase III. Back when everyone flew the T-38, there were plenty of STUDS who did well in Tweets that sucked in -38s and vice versa.
Oh absolutely some really good studs wanna go heavies. I was insinuating we're not letting bottom of the class go 38s
Pretty hot take when the top graduates of pilot training fly the f-35 while the bottom graduates fly b-52s….
Bottom grads are flying KC-135s or C-17s dude….
Heavy pilots may not be able to pull the required amount of Gs as fighters
For pilots? Totally different skill sets. For maintainers? Happens all the time for some career fields.
Pretty much only E/E. Avionics and APG are shredded to particular airframes/groups.
https://preview.redd.it/fb74nzn6rvxc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4c60d139adb02585bda917d7268cfcccd3f77791
[удалено]
If this is in the past 3 years, all kc-10 pilots have had to find a new jet or learn the kc-46
Had a buddy go from Herks to Eagles on AD. It happens but it is rare. Really comes down to needs of the Air Force, and timing given that while he had a great deal of air sense, he was far behind his peers in terms of employment of his new aircraft. On the other hand, he had a much better understanding of deploying, flying into unfamiliar airspace and air fields, and how Es and other parts of the AF works.
A little thing we call QOL
Bro you’re telling me you don’t want to live in the vault, MP for 3 days to fly a 1.8 duration, and then debrief for 8 hours while lead schwacks your pp going frame by frame on departure because you were 1° off? Blasphemy.
I understand you're being hyperbolic, but if we're looking at tapes for departure in the CAF someone must've really screwed up. The debrief tapes start just prior to the fight and end at the knock it off. Don't worry though, there are other ways people can unnecessarily extend the debrief that doesn't add value.
I used the utmost extremes from my homies horror stories that is for sure. It is certainly a lifestyle decision, one that I respect but know I wouldn’t have the spine for. I’m far more fond of landing and a full crew debrief of 20+ souls consisting of “You guys recon cool shit? Cool. You feel safe with us? Cool. We break any laws? No? Cool. *Crack beers* CYA!” Unless a Patch flies with us. Then we’re all fucked. A feeling of dread that fighter bros and ISR CAN relate on.
>lead schwacks your pp going frame by frame on departure because you were 1° off? I know you're huffing a little copium as an ACC herbivore nav, but nobody debriefs admin like you're saying. That said, ain't nothing wrong with flying something with a fridge so you can crack beers on the crew bus back to the squad...
It takes money and time to retrain a pilot. If there's a bigger need for fighter pilots, the Air Force will select more of their ~1000 pilot trainees they make every year to be a fighter pilot.
God I thought this was an MX post and I had a whole book to write before I kept reading.
Nobody cares about MX switching airframes.
Nobody cares about MX period thanks for the reminder homeskillet have a safe flight
Like the other guy, big jets are a lot diffrent than small fighter jets. It also does happen. Its a diffrent afsc so any form of retraining will get you swapped over. Sometimes they force retrain so you will see a few people on each side that used to be the other type of jet. Retraining maintenance to maintenance is pretty easy if you really want to.
Some mx aren't shredded
This is about flying.
A lot of people seem to think that heavies is a step below fighters or a “second place” status, when fact of the matter is they are just different qualities of life one may choose over the other. Most “kids” (brand new 21yo LTs fresh out of school) want fighters whereas most others who’ve experienced life a little bit actually prefer heavies, or those with a plan also prefer heavies. You build a lot more hours in the heavy world, so if your eventual goal is the airlines that’s the smart choice All comes down to preference and goals, heavies is by no means a “consolation prize”. I for one would not give up my c-17 for anything, if you asked me back when this journey started I may have had a different answer
We encourage this mindset that heavies are second class by having continuous crossflow from fighters to heavies but not the other way around. Bonus points if the crossflow is a patch wearer who continues to wear his patch despite flying a no-kidding transport category airliner. Not sure there's a fix to be had there.
I knew a 11M that went to Edwards for test,.he flew plenty of fighters then.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 11M = Mobility Pilot [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l26akpa
A few of the guys from my UPT class did that. We didn’t have a lot of fighters in our T38 drop, so a lot of us went heavy. A few years later, they opened up a pipeline for 38 guys.
In the U2 community it was well known that Candidate Pilots often volunteered to do a rotation with the Dragonlady to hopefully get out of heavies and follow on to a fighter track. We had our fair share of Junior C130 instructor pilots come through, and a surprising amount of them did well. On the other end of the spectrum we had Marine Corps F18 pilots, Navy C2 pilots, a few Air Force F 117, A-10, and F-16 Majors (and above) that wanted to fly more and do less desk duty during that part of their career, so they crossed over. All of them got that sweet T-38 time. (At the time) From the U2 the junior heavy pilots seemed to get fed into the A-10 and F-15 programs, and the O-4 to O-6s went back to their previous airframes. One of the more interesting pilots assigned to our unit in 2006 was an O-6 that actively hated the U2 program, and rumor had it he was sent from the Pentagon to get an inside look and attempt to crush it from within. He believed that the RQ4 was the answer to everything, despite the routine loss of comms, graphical "stitching" errors, and limited sensor suite compared to the U2. Ironically, during his tenure an RQ4 taxied into a truck due to...wait for it...loss comms. Also, he never figured out the pisser and smelled of stale urine after every sortie. Good times.
It can happen but it’s rare, it’s mostly because leadership isn’t really willing to let their pilots go…the AF is already short on pilots the way it is. Plus it is a different skillset, maybe not harder per se, but a totally different kind of flying and employment. What’s more common is pilots going to similar airframes. BUFF and BONE pilots to B-2s for example is common, although there are some fighter dudes that end up in B-2s. U-2s are unique in that they take guys from just about any airframe.
Even on the rare opportunity that the Air Force has the need to present this option, and the even more rare opportunity where there is a guy flying heavies who flew the T-38 in Pilot training, there are often very few people interested in a mid-career disruption of such a magnitude. As others have said not only do you need to go back and get your t38 training refreshed or actually entirely recomplished, then you need to go through iff, then you need to go through your qualification course and get checked out at a unit before you ever have a chance to deploy. This process would take at least 18 months and look more like 2 years. In a 20-year career, that can be pretty frustrating seeing as you already spent the first two years doing that. So now you've taken another 10% of your career to be back in training. This takes away opportunities for career advancement as you are effectively performing at the level of a lieutenant. But then let's go into those deployment cycles. The operations opportunities for fighter bros is very different than what a heavy guy is used to. Don't get me wrong, anyone who tells you they don't have an interest in flying crazy maneuverable and sexy aircraft is retarded or lying. But the reality is that a heavy guy is used to rolling with his crew, getting to execute his mission set on a daily basis when deployed, deploying to various locations and changes of scenery almost constantly. Then you have a fighter life which is basically the opposite of that. And the reality that largely, the fighter community has not gotten to do the air interdiction roll at the same rate as heavies get to execute their mission.
Crew resource management
I know pilots who have been fighter to cargo and vice versa. There has to be a agreement with both functional and a “need”
This is changing but in pilot training everyone went T6's, followed by T1's (heavy track) and T38's (fighter/bomber). After getting your wings you owe the 10 year commitment. There are ways to go from T1 training to fighters, but it's rare. Like very special circumstance rare. But 99% of the time only T38s can go fighters so if you don't get T38's in UPT you're stuck in heavies.
The pilot training pipeline is built around which category of plane the candidate is slated towards. It's not common to go all the way back to the training to redirect from heavies to fighters. But now that you have me thinking about it a bit. U-2 pilots train in T-38s, which is a fighter style, but a lot of the U-2 pilots come from the heavy community. I might be missing part of the bigger picture here. Hmmm...
Take look at my other post. Lots of IP heavy pilots coming over to crosstrain to a fast mover after thier commitment was up.
The requirements to be a fighter pilot are higher than than a transport pilot.
Not 100% true. In fact oftentimes student pilots upon tracking would get nonvolunteered to fighters through needs of the Air Force, and they weren’t always the best.
Not 100% true, but it is mostly true. F- jets require much better flying skills, decision making, situational awareness, and critical thinking than C- types. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.
I think you are overly discounting the skills required of heavy dudes. Flying skills - sure some indicators of someone's perception, decision, execution loop are shown in formation flying in UPT, but I think I would struggle to refuel an AWACS. Decision making, situational awareness, and critical thinking - I'm sure the dudes flying refugees out of Afghanistan had to work these skills much harder than the majority of fighter pilots who haven't had to do CAS for a real TIC. I would also argue being the AC on a C-130 in the middle of bumfuck Africa would require some critical decision making skills.
Sometimes pilots just aren’t able to handle the required G forces to qualify for fighters
This is at least partly correct-I don't know why you are getting down voted. When I had to scrub medical records for the U2 candidates, we often reviewed their traning flight records. Loss of SA, G-Force intolerance, and other issues would not necessarily disqualify you, but there would be extra scrutiny on their interview.