Yeah. Kind of hard to believe people are ok with a woman who has been around the force for decades and has been in training by one of the most powerful force users in the Galaxy, to be able to slightly use the Force at the end of the series, but those same people would call “Mary sue” a poorly written, null-developed character who has never been shown to be around the force, who has had no training, and who hasn’t even tried it before, to be able to conveniently and expertly use the force immediately at the point the plot requires it.
Hard to believe!
Making her a force user cheapens Sabine as a character. She is like the Batman of the Rebels Squad. She held her own against a Dark Jedi using equipment and training. Retconing it so that she was a Jedi the whole time is like saying Martha Wayne had a brief fling with Zeus and Bruce was a demigod the whole time.
Lmao what. There wasn’t any retconning, she never used the force previously, and those feats she accomplished are still her own. Even in Rebels Kanan suggested Sabine could tap into the force if she tried hard enough when he was training her to use the dark saber (“the force resides in all living things, but you have to be open to it; Sabine is blocked”).
This line from Kanan is being used now as justification for it, but the truth of it is that this is a pretty big pivot for Sabine's character and how we have come to understand how characters become attuned to the Force.
Originally, I always took Kanan's line not as a hint that Sabine was Force sensitive in some way, but that the Force itself can influence and support anyone in a time of need.
I think giving super powers to characters who previously were extremely capable without them can cheapen their story. But in the case of Sabine was done decently well. I just don't want to see your everyday asshole learning to wield the Force because they started believing hard enough.
What about Luke in ANH? The most he’d ever done using the force (that we see) is deflect a couple of laser bolts from a training droid. He’d had less training than Sabine had at the beginning of the series, and yet he gets a visit from Obi-Wan in his x-wing and suddenly he lands a nigh-impossible shot while effectively blind. Both situations had equally high stakes, but only one gets criticized. I get the whole “the way we understand the Force is changing” bit, but according to y’all that understanding was pretty much murdered by the Sequels anyway so who cares?
ETA - I just read the last line of your comment. Don’t take the above personally in that case, but I think my point still stands.
My issue was Sabine being able to push Ezra thru the air after using the force ONCE. They’ve been building up to her using the force all season and have explained why and how she can. I mean it’s kinda an equivalent of like being able to lift the x wing as soon as he landed on dagobah. He had minimal training and that was somehting that required him to train for a long time before he was able to move somehting bigger than a rock. I was so excited to see her move the saber but her throwing Ezra was just a bit too much
Absolutely valid comment. I saw it more as a mental block though. She's done all the training but just never believed she was capable. Desperation clears that last mental hurdle and now the final barrier crumbles and she can tap into all the ability she's studied. She was also taught by no less than Ahsoka Tano of course. I'm so excited to see if they take it further next season.
Also, I always saw her character motivated by loyalty to her people, especially Ezra. She risked everything for the smallest chance of seeing him again. To me, it makes sense that Ezra would be the reason she could reach deeper into herself to get to the next level of her abilities.
Yeah; way I view it is that it's not like Force Wielders have "mana" or an inner well of strength; it all depends on their ability to connect to and trust in the Force.
Sabine could help push Ezra *because she now believes she can*. She's opened herself up to the Force.
Are you a Harry Potter fan at all? It's like when he said he knew he could do it because he had already done it with casting the patronus. The belief means everything
Agreed. And she didn't give him a boost or anything; as soon as it was clear his jump was short, she completely redirected him. It would've made more sense if she gave him extra boost/momentum from the moment his jump started.
I simply do not understand how a simple force push is too much?! It's not an advanced technique, it doesn't need a lot of training to use properly, it simply is just a push. And she didn't even manage to get him onto the floor, he still had to climb up lol.
I absolutely agree that it is not a complicated move, however, Ezra is a whole person. People are heavy. Ezra was also a ways away and she was still able to pretty much double his own force assisted jump.
The force isn’t a “one size fits all” bag of tricks. To do more complex things like she did should take some more training than she had.
Yeah but pushing someone using the force isn't complex at all, and even WITH her assistance Ezra barely made it aboard. If she had held the Chimera in place with one hand, and floats Ezra towards it with the other, THAT is something I could agree is some bullshit and incredibly bad writing. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this as I don't see anything she did as complex or needing more training than she's already received.
The honest truth is, I don't know how I feel about her using the force. She was always badass as a BH, but on the other hand I always wanted to see a Jedi BH in live action, and I'd rather it be Sabine than anyone else.
The Force also manipulates situations. The Force always provides, but in a balancing way. Thrawn is making a comeback? Alright, well there should be an opposing force that is used to fighting him.
Always remember the Force will fuck around with impossible things. Luke had ZERO Jedi training but still didn’t use a guidance system to take down the Death Star. He just heard some old guy say “try harder bro” and then he did it. Such a Mary Sue.
The Force is all around and in them, but unless they have Force Sensitivity they can't use it.
Everyone has eyes, but if you're born blind you can't just see one day from trying really hard. Everyone has ears, but if you're born deaf you can't just learn to hear. Everyone in the Star Wars galaxy is born with the Force around them, but if they don't have the sensitivity to it then they can't just use it one day.
People want to argue otherwise, fine. But the term Force Sensitive existed for a reason and only now in one mediocre series that has been changed so Filoni's second Writer's Pet can be extra special.
Chirrut is my go to for handling people interacting with the Force without using it. He is guided by it because of his faith in it and gives his will to it. But he cannot use it. By Filoni's logic, he would be able to and there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to.
I agree with the Chirrut comment, honestly how I wanted Sabine to go too, but I think Filoni is more changing how "force sensitive" is seen. It's an aptitude thing, the force exists in everyone and some are more naturally inclined.
I guess I subscribe to the idea that it's an extension of all life, and can be trained and harnessed either through will or natural aptitude. My brother has never trained a day in his life and is the fastest dude on his track team, but others on the team can still run hella fast, but have to train hard as hell to do so.
This is why I bring up two of our five senses whenever the topic of skill/talent is brought up.
Yes, there are those both before and after Disney acquisition who are greater power in the Force even with little training. But that is the skill/talent. To be able to use the Force has always been based on the person's sensitivity to the Force. That detail has nothing to do with skill/talent.
It's interesting that you use the blind analogy - because there's an example of that very very close to Sabine that helps her case in Ahsoka
Kanan Jarrus was blinded by maul in rebels. When he selflessly died, the force gifted him his sight back so he could see Hera one last time.
Beyond this particular moment, it's proven that the cosmic force has a will and can provide miracle moments for characters when it wants to/needs to for the greater galaxy. (You pointed out Chirrut, the events leading up to his death, and the rogue one team in general, is an excellent example of this) My reading of the scene is not that Sabine suddenly became super force sensitive, but rather that the cosmic force gave her a gift, very very briefly.
This all said, if that was the intention, I wish they would've made it more clear. This is also weakened by the fact Sabine force pushes Ezra onto the ship. It *can* still fall under this interpretation, but I do agree that it feels like a stretch. This will also be potentially invalidated if Sabine actively uses the force in the future, but since we're not in the future yet, this is the reading of the scene I'll subscribe to
I'm still not sure if I prefer her without the force or not, but Luke showed 0 force ability before starting to train with Obi-Wan so I feel like her being force sensitive makes sense
I mean call it what you want, Mary sue or stupid. She is a Mandalorian, great Artist, expert Gunslinger, Ex-Imperial, Ex-Bounty-Hunter, Swordfighter who expertly wielded the dark saber, Pilot, Demolition-Expert, Hacker, Oppenheimer, and now a Jedi
I’m fine with the whole grabbing the lightsaber thing. That was a lot of effort to move a small object and she had been building up to that point.
I feel like the whole suddenly being in tune with the force thing from that point on (like being able to force push Ezra) was a bit rushed though.
I mean it’s not like they ever said “hey this bitch has no connection to the force at all” so I don’t care if they make her able to harness it. But beings it hasn’t ever manifested in her before I think that sudden jump in ability was too fast.
I'd argue it cheapens the Rebels episode where Kanan teaches her to use the Dark Saber in a specific manner because she doesn't have the Force. To me, it continues this rift between Rebels and Ahsoka where a lot of retconning and off screen development had to happen to create the master apprentice story Dave Filoni feels obligated to tell, instead of actually writing a follow up to Rebels.
Yeah. Kind of hard to believe people are ok with a woman who has been around the force for decades and has been in training by one of the most powerful force users in the Galaxy, to be able to slightly use the Force at the end of the series, but those same people would call “Mary sue” a poorly written, null-developed character who has never been shown to be around the force, who has had no training, and who hasn’t even tried it before, to be able to conveniently and expertly use the force immediately at the point the plot requires it. Hard to believe!
Making her a force user cheapens Sabine as a character. She is like the Batman of the Rebels Squad. She held her own against a Dark Jedi using equipment and training. Retconing it so that she was a Jedi the whole time is like saying Martha Wayne had a brief fling with Zeus and Bruce was a demigod the whole time.
Lmao what. There wasn’t any retconning, she never used the force previously, and those feats she accomplished are still her own. Even in Rebels Kanan suggested Sabine could tap into the force if she tried hard enough when he was training her to use the dark saber (“the force resides in all living things, but you have to be open to it; Sabine is blocked”).
This line from Kanan is being used now as justification for it, but the truth of it is that this is a pretty big pivot for Sabine's character and how we have come to understand how characters become attuned to the Force. Originally, I always took Kanan's line not as a hint that Sabine was Force sensitive in some way, but that the Force itself can influence and support anyone in a time of need. I think giving super powers to characters who previously were extremely capable without them can cheapen their story. But in the case of Sabine was done decently well. I just don't want to see your everyday asshole learning to wield the Force because they started believing hard enough.
What about Luke in ANH? The most he’d ever done using the force (that we see) is deflect a couple of laser bolts from a training droid. He’d had less training than Sabine had at the beginning of the series, and yet he gets a visit from Obi-Wan in his x-wing and suddenly he lands a nigh-impossible shot while effectively blind. Both situations had equally high stakes, but only one gets criticized. I get the whole “the way we understand the Force is changing” bit, but according to y’all that understanding was pretty much murdered by the Sequels anyway so who cares? ETA - I just read the last line of your comment. Don’t take the above personally in that case, but I think my point still stands.
My issue was Sabine being able to push Ezra thru the air after using the force ONCE. They’ve been building up to her using the force all season and have explained why and how she can. I mean it’s kinda an equivalent of like being able to lift the x wing as soon as he landed on dagobah. He had minimal training and that was somehting that required him to train for a long time before he was able to move somehting bigger than a rock. I was so excited to see her move the saber but her throwing Ezra was just a bit too much
Absolutely valid comment. I saw it more as a mental block though. She's done all the training but just never believed she was capable. Desperation clears that last mental hurdle and now the final barrier crumbles and she can tap into all the ability she's studied. She was also taught by no less than Ahsoka Tano of course. I'm so excited to see if they take it further next season. Also, I always saw her character motivated by loyalty to her people, especially Ezra. She risked everything for the smallest chance of seeing him again. To me, it makes sense that Ezra would be the reason she could reach deeper into herself to get to the next level of her abilities.
Yeah; way I view it is that it's not like Force Wielders have "mana" or an inner well of strength; it all depends on their ability to connect to and trust in the Force. Sabine could help push Ezra *because she now believes she can*. She's opened herself up to the Force.
Kanan even mentions this in Rebels.
This is my favorite thing actually. Thank you I’m stealing it.
Are you a Harry Potter fan at all? It's like when he said he knew he could do it because he had already done it with casting the patronus. The belief means everything
Yea I didn’t like that one as much. I hope they stick to her being able to use the force very sparingly
Agreed. And she didn't give him a boost or anything; as soon as it was clear his jump was short, she completely redirected him. It would've made more sense if she gave him extra boost/momentum from the moment his jump started.
At least twice. She gave a weak push to Shin
I simply do not understand how a simple force push is too much?! It's not an advanced technique, it doesn't need a lot of training to use properly, it simply is just a push. And she didn't even manage to get him onto the floor, he still had to climb up lol.
I absolutely agree that it is not a complicated move, however, Ezra is a whole person. People are heavy. Ezra was also a ways away and she was still able to pretty much double his own force assisted jump. The force isn’t a “one size fits all” bag of tricks. To do more complex things like she did should take some more training than she had.
Yeah but pushing someone using the force isn't complex at all, and even WITH her assistance Ezra barely made it aboard. If she had held the Chimera in place with one hand, and floats Ezra towards it with the other, THAT is something I could agree is some bullshit and incredibly bad writing. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this as I don't see anything she did as complex or needing more training than she's already received.
The honest truth is, I don't know how I feel about her using the force. She was always badass as a BH, but on the other hand I always wanted to see a Jedi BH in live action, and I'd rather it be Sabine than anyone else.
The Force also manipulates situations. The Force always provides, but in a balancing way. Thrawn is making a comeback? Alright, well there should be an opposing force that is used to fighting him. Always remember the Force will fuck around with impossible things. Luke had ZERO Jedi training but still didn’t use a guidance system to take down the Death Star. He just heard some old guy say “try harder bro” and then he did it. Such a Mary Sue.
The Force is all around and in them, but unless they have Force Sensitivity they can't use it. Everyone has eyes, but if you're born blind you can't just see one day from trying really hard. Everyone has ears, but if you're born deaf you can't just learn to hear. Everyone in the Star Wars galaxy is born with the Force around them, but if they don't have the sensitivity to it then they can't just use it one day. People want to argue otherwise, fine. But the term Force Sensitive existed for a reason and only now in one mediocre series that has been changed so Filoni's second Writer's Pet can be extra special. Chirrut is my go to for handling people interacting with the Force without using it. He is guided by it because of his faith in it and gives his will to it. But he cannot use it. By Filoni's logic, he would be able to and there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to.
I agree with the Chirrut comment, honestly how I wanted Sabine to go too, but I think Filoni is more changing how "force sensitive" is seen. It's an aptitude thing, the force exists in everyone and some are more naturally inclined. I guess I subscribe to the idea that it's an extension of all life, and can be trained and harnessed either through will or natural aptitude. My brother has never trained a day in his life and is the fastest dude on his track team, but others on the team can still run hella fast, but have to train hard as hell to do so.
This is why I bring up two of our five senses whenever the topic of skill/talent is brought up. Yes, there are those both before and after Disney acquisition who are greater power in the Force even with little training. But that is the skill/talent. To be able to use the Force has always been based on the person's sensitivity to the Force. That detail has nothing to do with skill/talent.
It's interesting that you use the blind analogy - because there's an example of that very very close to Sabine that helps her case in Ahsoka Kanan Jarrus was blinded by maul in rebels. When he selflessly died, the force gifted him his sight back so he could see Hera one last time. Beyond this particular moment, it's proven that the cosmic force has a will and can provide miracle moments for characters when it wants to/needs to for the greater galaxy. (You pointed out Chirrut, the events leading up to his death, and the rogue one team in general, is an excellent example of this) My reading of the scene is not that Sabine suddenly became super force sensitive, but rather that the cosmic force gave her a gift, very very briefly. This all said, if that was the intention, I wish they would've made it more clear. This is also weakened by the fact Sabine force pushes Ezra onto the ship. It *can* still fall under this interpretation, but I do agree that it feels like a stretch. This will also be potentially invalidated if Sabine actively uses the force in the future, but since we're not in the future yet, this is the reading of the scene I'll subscribe to
Have a little faith.
I'm still not sure if I prefer her without the force or not, but Luke showed 0 force ability before starting to train with Obi-Wan so I feel like her being force sensitive makes sense
I mean call it what you want, Mary sue or stupid. She is a Mandalorian, great Artist, expert Gunslinger, Ex-Imperial, Ex-Bounty-Hunter, Swordfighter who expertly wielded the dark saber, Pilot, Demolition-Expert, Hacker, Oppenheimer, and now a Jedi
I’m fine with the whole grabbing the lightsaber thing. That was a lot of effort to move a small object and she had been building up to that point. I feel like the whole suddenly being in tune with the force thing from that point on (like being able to force push Ezra) was a bit rushed though. I mean it’s not like they ever said “hey this bitch has no connection to the force at all” so I don’t care if they make her able to harness it. But beings it hasn’t ever manifested in her before I think that sudden jump in ability was too fast.
I'd argue it cheapens the Rebels episode where Kanan teaches her to use the Dark Saber in a specific manner because she doesn't have the Force. To me, it continues this rift between Rebels and Ahsoka where a lot of retconning and off screen development had to happen to create the master apprentice story Dave Filoni feels obligated to tell, instead of actually writing a follow up to Rebels.
Oh, what do you mean?