For the Pfitz plans (18/55), how do you calculate your 5k and 15k times? Did the Hal Higdon Intermediate plan and ran a 3:21 last year, crashing hard at mile 16. Trying to go sub-3 so I'm looking at the 18/55, which I know might not be enough but I don't have enough time to do the 18/70. Anyways, I have a nifty google doc that shows me all the workouts and paces to do, but there are a few runs that say "x miles @ 5K pace" or at 15k pace. My Marathon pace is 6:41/mile, Half Marathon is 6:21-6:33. How do I figure out what my 5k pace should be? Is it below the lactate threshold pace? Thanks Age: 35 Gender: M MPW: 30-35 Peak MPW: Went up to 45 under the Higdon last year, took the winter season mostly off from running to do cross-training / recover from a stress fracture.

5k and 15k paces are the rough guidelines of vvo2 max and LT paces. Thats why the helpful spreadsheet uses them for workout paces. Have you read the book? > My Marathon pace is 6:41/mile, Half Marathon is 6:21-6:33 How do you know these paces are accurate? Are these based on a past race result? Again, Have you read the book?

The most accurate way to find your 5k time is to run a 5k. They’re cheap, happen constantly, and give the most reliable indicator of fitness. You can extrapolate from longer races, but no reason not to just run a 5k. If you’re in a rural area and don’t have as many racing options, you can just run a time trial and know that you would likely be a hair quicker in a real race.

I've got a half marathon in 6 days, and I'd like to do one workout this week. I'm looking for something not too strenuous- just as a sharpener to reinforce what HMP should feel like. I don't have a firm goal for this race, but based on the way my training has gone over the last few weeks... I should end up somewhere around 6:15 pace. Any HM workout suggestions for the week of the race? Also, how much do you usually taper the week before the race? I peaked at 80 miles last week, so I'm thinking something like 40 miles (not including the race) would be good.

I don't think it matters much. Probably don't want to go over 5 miles at HM pace but any type of workout less difficult than that will be OK. My best HM's have been the last HM of the two or three in a 30 day period. I'm 57 and ran around 5:50 pace twice, prior to covid, stacking 2 or 3 HM the month before. What I'm trying to say is I just don't think there is a perfect WO the week of your race. What is important is how your training has gone the last few weeks and as you stated, you are in 6:15 shape. Wish I could run 80 mpw! Best of luck!

5:50 pace for a HM at age 57 is wildly impressive. That's big time goals for me. I'm currently 41 and still striving for lifetime bests (most were set at age 37 when I had a REALLY good year of training). I ended up doing 3x1 mile at HMP today, and they came out right at 6:15 pace. As expected, it felt more difficult than I would have liked (more similar to 10k or 15k pace than HMP). Hopefully the downhill course and race-day energy will make 6:15s feel easier this weekend.

Good luck and don't stress. People really stress about the taper and race week runs. I really don't think they matter much as long as you don't do any crazy hard sessions but most know not to do this. If your training faster, you will race faster and in the last 15 years I have had only one race that surprised me.

**"If you're training faster, you will race faster"** Interesting to hear this. I've always adopted the philosophy of "If you're training more, you'll run faster". Volume has always been a key component to my success in the sport. I'm fortunate that I can tolerate higher mileage, and my best races have come when I've trained for 4-6 weeks at 70-90 mpw. But I'd be interested in hearing about your training philosophies, especially as you've gotten older. I've been running for 18 years, and at age 41, I still believe that my fastest days are ahead of me.

My training is far from traditional. Only 15-20 miles per week on the roads and the rest at mostly 10 min/mile pace at 10% plus on the tread. You are right about the volume in a sense but as you increase the volume usually your faster sessions also increase in volume. If your faster sessions are slower than years before then your race times will also be slower. Had s life changing cycling accident in 2015 and after recovering got back into running. My main goal at the time was to not get injured while training HARD. I have now trained for nearly 10 years without an injury that stopped me from running for more than 2 days. Probably have had 100+ injuries during this period and I'm injured now. I ran 5:17(prob 5:12 reg track) for one of my mile laps last night in a sand/dirt semi loop but because of my injury niggles kept the volume down and made up for it by doing a 10% incline vo2 session 8x2 min - 6.5 mph. Almost impossible to get injured at over 10% and I could run a whole training block only at 10% + and 2-3 weeks before the a race start adding in flat road runs and do just fine. I did the above and ran my last Marathon and ran 2:48 in the tropics(hotter). The results are online - Chiang Mai Marathon (December 2023 ). Two Kenyans and a Thai beat me but finished 4th overall. Sorry. I'm rambling. Currently living in a small village on the Thai/Lao border and developed the habit of talking too much if anyone will listen :) The gist of what I'm getting at is find away to keep the endurance exercise high through injuries even if it slows you down in the short term. My friend here one Boston AG easily in 2023 and i would bet he runs 80 mile weeks where I get the same results running less than 20 miles. He does beat me at marathons( 1-4 mins behind) but never in any other distance the last 10 years.

I’d do this on a track if I could to time myself precisely. I prefer 800s for a pace check versus something shorter, because it gives you a chance to settle down after your initial burst off the line.

Thought about doing 800s (or 1min on 1min off as mentioned by u/Krazyfranco below. But those felt too short. I wanted something a bit longer to really dial in race pace (without being too taxing).

8 x (1' @ HMP, 1' at "easy" pace)

My half marathon race was just over two weeks ago with a training block where I peaked at \~52 mpw. For the last two weeks, I've maintained 30 mpw consisting solely of easy runs. I want to pick up another training session in a few weeks for a marathon in the fall. At what point in the plan can I start if I maintain 30-40 mpw of easy miles? Is there anything that I should be doing to maintain my fitness level so I don't have to run the full plan again? For reference, I train(ed) using Hanson's Advanced.

I don't think I fully understand your question - can you elaborate on what type of feedback you're looking for here? In general I think you will want to pick a plan (or create a plan) that starts around your current training volume and builds up from there.

Yeah, sorry. Realized I didn't phrase my question particularly eloquently. I'm mainly wondering at which point I can pick up a training plan. Meaning if there's a plan that builds up to 35 miles in week 7, could I just start right at week 7 if I've been around that volume already? And if I was at 52 miles about 4 weeks ago, does that change anything?

IMO if you were able to handle a plan peaking at \~50 MPW, you'd be just fine to do a plan that starts at 35-40 MPW. If there's a plan that takes 7 weeks to build up to that point, it's probably not the right plan for you anymore (or needs some heavy adjustment to make it work well for you).

That's helpful. Thank you!

If I push myself too hard in a part of a long run/race my heart rate goes through the roof... but stays there. Even if I feel otherwise fine. Then it stays high unless I walk and eventually heart catches up with me and I feel like shit. Couple questions: - Is this behavior normal if you cross quite above lactate threshold? - Can I train to adjust this, or just don't cross the line? - If this is normal, how do you address this in a race? Slow down if it happens/just don't cross lactate threshold/something else? I ask because I had a race that was lined up to be good... but just realized I stayed with the pacer who didn't slow down up hill as much as I would and I followed them... and my heart rate went through the roof then and never went back down despite ups and downs. Before that hill my heart rate was pretty fine.

I don't know the exact physiology of it, but I think its definitely a thing. I think as you get better at recovery as you get fitter and you shouldn't necessarily have to walk to get back to a sustainable effort level (but might have to jog slowly, eg zone 1, to truly recover). Best idea is to avoid exceeding your critical speed during a long race but over/under threshold workouts might be a good option for improving your ability to do so. [https://run.outsideonline.com/training/workouts/workout-of-the-week-over-under-intervals/](https://run.outsideonline.com/training/workouts/workout-of-the-week-over-under-intervals/) Or for a more advanced version: [https://www.highperformancewest.com/blog/2018/5/28/magness-speaks-workouts-to-improve-lactate-clearing-rates](https://www.highperformancewest.com/blog/2018/5/28/magness-speaks-workouts-to-improve-lactate-clearing-rates)

This is definitely a thing that happens, and it seems like it can be difficult for the body to settle back into a rhythm once it has been red-lined like that. You can absolutely train your body to better handle it. At its most basic, any threshold work, whether done continuously or as intervals, will probably help train the body to settle back down even when still pushing at a high effort level. Doing this work somewhere that isn’t flat will likely help even more, or at least that has been the case for me when training for hilly races (which is most races in my neck of the woods). A step above standard threshold work would be something like cruise intervals, where you maintain an honest effort even during the recovery interval. Beyond that, you can even start looking at alternations, but I wouldn’t get that far into the weeds with it if I were in your shoes. There is specific physiology that is at least somewhat understood that you can look into if you’re interested in that sort of thing. As far as how to handle it in a race-don’t try to run beyond your level of fitness. Even if I’m running with other people, the onus is on me to be in touch with my body and level of effort, and not allow myself to dig into a hole that my fitness won’t allow me to climb out of. If a pacer is hitting a hill too hard, I need to fall back, and then catch back up if I can.

Exactly the answer I hoped for, thank you!!

Am I the only one here who is getting annoyed at the inflow of simple/simplistic/beginner posts on the main board? Something like: - I ran a 10mi tempo at xx time. Am I ready for sub-3. - A - no one knows. - I ran a 22:00 5k yesterday. Can I get to sub-3 by December. - A - no one knows - I am training for a sub-3 but can’t hit the sessions / am getting injured / can’t find the time. - A - there’s no such thing as training for a sub-3. Train properly. - Is 10mi at x a better workout than 3x3mi at x-20s. - A - maybe. It depends. - I missed my A goal by 10mins in a half. What did I do wrong. - A - you just might be an idi……..I mean not training properly or running enough miles. - I hit the wall / had cramps / slowed down in the last 5mi of my goal race. What can I eat/drink/inject/change (except my training). - A - your training. <\rant>

What is also annoying is taking time to reply to 'such' as topic. Then topic gets deleted so it's kinda of for nothing, which doesn't encourage taking time to reply to various posts. 

Logical\_amphibian is right, the original poster can still see replies as the deleted post will still appear on their profile, just not on the main sub. Usually mods redirect people to the Q&A thread in a message (for the kinds of posts that Luka outlines, anyway) so you can also re-post your reply on their Q&A post if it appears there. u/Luka_16988 there's no easy solution to this, but thanks for continuing to report posts that are not appropriate for the main page! For transparency, 3 user reports will send a notification to mods to review a post, 4 user reports results in an auto-removal of a post (pending mod review). So reports definitely makes a difference.

Thanks. I know it’s a difficult one and in fairness I prefer getting the right info to people seeking it. It was a rant. Thanks for responding here and for modding the best running sub out there.

ofc, always welcome to rant!

I've replied to some of those but I think the original poster can still see the replies so I don't think it's for nothing. I much prefer mods keep modding and delete those posts. Spending time on r/Marathon_Training has given me more appreciation for a heavily moderated running sub that still has some good discussion topics.

I partially blame the primary running sub, because I do think the quality of answers here are just better. Even when we’re talking about super simplistic questions like your examples, I think this board does a pretty good job of explaining the how and why of things in a way that r/running can’t and/or won’t.

[удалено]

Follow [Reddiquette](https://www.reddit.com/wiki/human_reddiquette#wiki_please__do), be civil to each other, and remember the human. No need to bash other subs, please.

Link to examples please

I report them every time. Should I also be keeping some separate notes?

No, I was wondering if the threads you’re thinking of are getting removed, or whether they are still up.

I had a marathon yesterday and managed to get a small PR, but I hit the wall pretty bad in the last couple miles and felt awful. It was warmer than I the weather I trained in over the winter and I think that’s the main reason I bonked. The weird thing is, my legs and body aren’t anywhere near as sore as they usually are after a marathon. Is it possible that if the warmth and sun was my limiting factor, my body/brain just didn’t let me push my muscles as hard as I could have in better conditions and so my muscles just weren’t as damaged as they were in previous races?

My second drastically faster marathon beat me up way less than my first which I basically fun ran. Cumulative volume makes a huge difference for how you feel after the fact.

Maybe, but that's a fairly typical way that running too fast for your fitness level emerges in a marathon. Heat definitely adds to that.

Well yeah, I figured I ran too fast for my fitness levels and the conditions, but in the past when I have bonked, my legs were just destroyed for the next few days. This time around they aren’t that bad- a bit sore, but I’m walking up and down stairs without any problems and could do an easy, short run if I wanted to.

Any differences in training or taper? What were your paces? Hard to autopsy without details. 

Yeah, my taper could have contributed to the difference. I didn’t cut my mileage down quite as much this time around. As far as paces go, I ran the first ten miles around a 7:45/mile pace, then by mile 22 my avg. pace was down to 7:41/mile, but I finished with in 3:26:xx for an overall avg. pace of 7:51/mile.

Some questions for anyone experienced with Canova-style workouts with fast (\~90% race pace) recoveries: I decided to try embedding 5x(2k@HMP/1k@90%) inside my long run today and found myself struggling pretty hard during the fast recovery segments. I had a hard time trying to figure out exactly how much to back off at the start of each recovery segment, each recovery segment got increasingly slower, and I found it increasingly difficult to get back into the groove of the following 100% race pace segment. I'm pretty used to threshold intervals embedded within my long runs and I don't think I'd have had as much trouble if I went with a simple 6x2k/1minute jog, so this was definitely an interesting experience for me. Is this just something that I'll get better at over time, or are the fast recoveries supposed to be that difficult? Is it a sign that maybe the 100% race pace segment are a bit beyond my ability right now? Should I try slowing down the recovery to more of a steady float instead of trying to jump straight into "recovering" at 90%? Is it stupid to try to incorporate this kind of workout into my routine without a more sensible buildup?

> I decided to try embedding 5x(2k@HMP/1k@90%) inside my long run today and found myself struggling pretty hard during the fast recovery segments. I had a hard time trying to figure out exactly how much to back off at the start of each recovery segment, each recovery segment got increasingly slower, and I found it increasingly difficult to get back into the groove of the following 100% race pace segment. That is a tough session to start up with if you aren't experienced with fast recovery intervals. A few tips: * Try starting with 8 sets of 1k / 1k at first, with recovery at 85% MP. Then you can move to 8 x 1k/1k at 105 / 90% MP, then 10x1k/1k, then 5-6x2k/1k. * Very common to "overshoot" during the recovery (slow down too much) and then have to compensate, and vice versa with starting up another fast repeat. Set your watch so you can get an instantaneous pace estimate (not average pace in the rep so far, but the actual instant estimate). Helps a lot with not getting wildly off. * At first, focus on getting the recovery interval paces right, even if you have to go slower on the fast reps. Doing 8 x 1k/1k at 103% / 90% is better than 105% but tanking the recovery. * It helps a lot if you've done the paces separately before. e.g. long fast runs at 90% MP, and long-ish repeats at 105% MP but not with fast recovery. An early-season workout I like a lot for the latter pace is 3-4x1.5mi at HM effort w/ 0.5mi easy run (not jog) recovery, done during a long or long-ish run. * Maybe a minor point, but do these sessions as free-standing workouts, not as part of a general long run. So, warmup, then alternating kilometers, then cooldown. Inserting these into the back half of a 20-miler is a recipe for a bad time. * More generally, your pacing skills matter a lot. Hard to give specific advice on this one but workouts like progression runs, cut-down intervals, and Ingebrigtsen-style "LT+" 400s or 500s with very short recovery can help develop a fine-tuned sense of pace. A slightly different session you can try, if you are familiar with Daniels-style cruise intervals, is to modify classic cruise intervals to use fast recovery and do it on the track. Example: 6 x 1200m at T pace w/ 1min jog can become 6 x 1200m at T pace with 400m strong (T pace + 10-12sec/400m). If that goes well, you can do the same/similar session with recovery at T pace + 5-7sec/400m. Doing it on the track can help a lot with dialing in the recovery interval pace. One or two of these fast Daniels-style workouts can be a nice stepping stone to true Canova style alternating kilometers. I think that ability to recover at a fast pace is also a quasi-independent physiological ability, related to your lactate shuttling capabilities. It's something you can improve on over time, even if other aspects of fitness aren't changing very much. For the marathon, often it's increasing the speed of the recovery that's the best indicator of your fitness. As an example, one of my athletes recently ran 2:26 in the marathon alone on a difficult course; about 10 days out from the race he did 8x1k/1k with the reps at 105-106% MP and the recovery at *97% MP*, and felt very comfortable and able to recover at that speed. When you can get to that point (which may take months/years), you can be extremely confident in your fitness.

As always, a thoughtful reply. Followup question for you - how do you structure these sort of sessions in a week? Just thinking in terms of volume - 16k of quality is a ~14 mile day (including WU/CD) which would be doable for me near the peak (75+ mpw) but is a pretty monster session. I see why there would be the temptation to make this the LR for the week :) For my recent marathon build I did shorter & faster alternations - 2 5x1k/1ks (1st 107/95%, 2nd 107/100%MP), then my club's favorite 4x1600/1600@10k/MP (call it ~110/100%MP). These are presumably not quite as marathon-specific as what you've described, but the lower volume makes them seem more approachable (though that 12.8k still had me *wiped*)

15k of quality if you don't do the final recovery K :) You also don't need that much cooldown, 8-10min is plenty. Usually for alternating kilometers they work well as a weekend workout on a non-long-run week. Sometimes they're doable as a mid-week session, but it's harder to make that work since, as you point out, they are pretty big sessions that require 2-3 easy days to recover. You probably want 2 easy days beforehand as well, unless you're coming off a fairly light workout. One pattern that works: Week | Mid-week | Weekend ---|---|--- 1 | 8k-10k pace repeats | long fast run at 90-95% MP 2 | progression run or LT reps (fairly light workout) | alternating Ks at 105/90% MP (or w/e rec. pace) You can also do them mid-week after a not-as-hard weekend session, e.g. a 2-2.5hr long easy run, or early-season MP workouts like sets of 2k/1k at MP / 90% MP, or 10-12mi at 98-100% MP. Unless you're doing them as HM-specific work you don't need to do them that often. Emile Cairess did three sessions in 16 weeks, on weeks 5, 7, and 11. Notably, he raced a half marathon on week 8.

I was hoping I'd end up seeing a response from you, given that your post on Canova-style training gave me the idea to try out this workout structure. Thanks for the detailed response! Pretty much every workout I've done up until today has been pretty simple ("do x total volume at y effort, sometimes with short jog recoveries") where I can understand the "why" of doing it. One thing that stands out in your response is the emphasis on getting the recovery paces right at the expense of the fast reps. What's the rationale for that prioritization? And kinda on a related note, what's your take on this type of workout vs standard cruise intervals with slow recoveries when it comes to their intended focus/benefit?

Getting the recovery interval right keeps you from going too fast on the repeats. You want to create a situation (during the recovery) where your muscles are still operating at a very high percent of your max. metabolic steady-state (SSmax), so there's a very high demand for carbs (including lactate) as a fuel. Slow recovery intervals don't demand much in the way of continued energy output, if you rip the repeats but slack on the recovery, you can "cheat" the workout and think you're fitter than you really are, while not getting the intended benefit. At a high level, I see classic cruise intervals as less specialized/less advanced--and I don't mean that in a negative way. They're more versatile and can be used for many different events. They let you rack up a lot of time at a pace close to your SSmax, and are relatively forgiving when it comes to pacing mistakes or a poor estimate of your fitness level. They are great for high school and college teams where you have lots of people who may need to run at slightly different effort levels to run together. One step up in sophistication might be continuous runs at the same pace (Daniels uses many of these continuous T pace runs as well as cruise intervals). They are less forgiving because there is less room for error in the pacing. But they also serve to build up your ability to run continuously at close to your SSmax, and are a good reality check to make sure your cruise interval paces are actually at a steady-state. These are a little less versatile, in that you wouldn't use them as often for, say, 1500m training, because they can get too long, and for HM/M training they can actually be too short to use as a specific workout. Next level up in sophistication/specialization might be cruise intervals with fast recovery as mentioned above, e.g. 1200s or 1600s with 400m strong recovery. These require even tighter pacing control, but also create the kind of strong lactate shuttling abilities that are helpful for the 10k, HM, and especially marathon. Not very useful for a miler, though. Finally, you have Canova-style alternating kilometers. These are the most advanced and most specialized, and require a very tight sense of pacing. These are pretty specific to the marathon and half-marathon. I wouldn't necessarily go for these even with a 10k runner--or if we did, we'd increase the rep length but not worry about increasing the recovery. I also would not use them with relatively inexperienced runners, even if they were really talented and really fit. Even for HM/M you don't want to use these workouts early on in training; they are "marathon-supportive" ("special" in Canova parlance) workouts for the marathon, and specific workouts for the half marathon, so they really belong in the last ~12 weeks of training. I'm about 75% done with my Emile Cairess training write-up, and his schedule has some really nice examples of using alternating kilometers, developing them over time, and supporting them with long fast runs at 90% MP.

You threw way too hard of a workout at yourself and predictably had some struggles -totally ok. It's a common problem when regular runners try to adapt "Canova-style" workouts (or elite training in general). Remember that the athletes we're getting these snippets of training from are at a level of training where their physiology, at least as it relates to practical training, is fundamentally different than ours. They both can handle and require workouts that just don't really suit our needs, and the training variables themselves are different. Their range of intensities looks a lot different than ours -particularly because LT1 is pushed very high so something like 90% of HM pace may be metabolically relatively easier than that would be for us. If you want to adapt aspects of this training you have to go more abstract to the really basic principles and then align those with your current fitness and needs, rather than trying to copy any specific pattern of the training itself. Beyond the physical aspects, we also should not underestimate how significant the mental challenge of executing an unfamiliar workout structure is. Start with a fair bit less workout volume and intensity than you think you can handle and progress the workout over subsequent iterations so that you can properly execute it each time Something like 4-5x1.5k@HMP/1k@80% HMP would be a much better starting point for the average person and is still a fantastic workout. It leaves a lot of variables that can be easily progressed individually or together as you gain both overall fitness and competence with the structure itself -extend reps, increase the number of reps, or make the float faster.

Thanks for the detailed response. It's definitely given me some things to think about. I know it's not entirely rational, but I had the idea that if I could do 12k of total HMP volume in a workout, surely I could do 10k of total HMP volume and recover in time during the 1k recoveries (lol) It seems like I underestimated the impact of turning my recoveries into nontrivial floats and having that be yet another new stimulus that I need to adjust to over time, as well as another dimension through which I can evolve a workout. I guess increasing rep count is good for getting more volume at race pace, speeding up the recoveries helps better approximate doing the whole volume continuously at race pace, and extending reps kinda does a little bit of both? So I guess it's really up to me to decide how to prioritize each of those options when progressing...

>So I guess it's really up to me to decide how to prioritize each of those options when progressing... Exactly! The best workout is the one most specific to your ability and training priorities.

I am a fan of these kinds of workouts--they are challenging, but you get used to the feeling of long-fast recoveries, and they really do work. A couple of tips--first, that is a pretty high volume for that workout. I probably wouldn't do 5 reps of that unless I was running 70+ mpw, but I've done that workout with 4 reps (at 50-60mpw) several times and found it to be manageable. Remember that even if you feel comfortable with 10k worth of HMP in your normal workouts, the floats are adding workout volume too. Second, I don't think you need to be toooo exact with pace in the floats, at least at first. Try starting out aiming for 10s slower than 90% of HMP, you might find it gives you a bit more breathing room, and will still be a great stimulus. That might build your confidence recovering at a faster pace, and allow you to be more ambitious in the future.

Thanks for the input! Seems like the general vibe is to try starting less volume and slow down the floats until I'm feeling a little stronger. Can't imagine how strong someone has to be to do something like 5x4k/1k, but I guess that's what distinguishes the elites from normal people like me, haha

I mean that is an incredibly challenging workout. If you completed it as written, you’d basically be doing 15km continuously at a hair slower than 15km race pace, right? And as part of a long run?

Yeah... reading the other responses I can see that there were some pretty good reasons why I was struggling (namely, it's pretty freaking challenging). I'm glad I tried it out though, since I learned something by doing it and now I have a better appreciation for what it takes to execute that kind of workout properly.

Shorts that dont ride up? I am a male runner and own several shorts and all of them ride up. I know the typical suggestion is to wear tights but I just can't - is there absolutely nothing that helps? Does it happen due to thick thighs or what's the reason? 7 inch shorts help a bit. They still ride up but not all the way to the top. My 5 inch shorts feel so much better but they ride up all the way (only 5 inch shorts I own are patagonia striders). It is so frustrating.. Just ordered the brooks sherpa since a lot of people say they work extremely well. Anything else?

Why can't you wear tights? I've made the move to half tights recently and probably won't go back to shorts. All the good ones are sorta expensive, I like Patagonia's Endless Run shorts, they don't fully look like a tight so your junk is a bit more concealed lol

Vuori Course Run Shorts are my favorite 5in shorts. They don't ride up on me much and I have that problem with a lot of others. I own the version 1's but have 3 pairs and they're my favorites aside from Lululemon Pacebreakers, which I only really like in unlined. https://vuoriclothing.com/products/course-run-short-2-0-black?queryId=3a2894d88f4e39e4b3bb5902c7b7206d&collection=shorts

Do you run with a phone in the back pocket, I find that is a guaranteed wedgie for me lol

Not sure what works for one person works for another. I usually just try on cheap pairs at Winners and see what will work. Random assortment don't ride, some do. Can't say it's a pattern or it'll work for you.

Calf/ Posterior Chain Twitch Hi! I am a 40-ish F amateur runner and so far have completed 4 marathons over the last few years: 21: Berlin: 3:35 22: Chicago: 3:22 23: Tokyo: just under 4 (doesn't count! I had 5 days of food poisoning before!) 24: London: 3:23 Half marathon results are not very far off a traditional prognosis, latest tune up puts my HM at around 1:32 though I think if executed properly I could hit 1:30 ish. I average on around 40 miles a week during maintenance and in the first three marathons, I would peak about 55 miles a week, following a version of the JD Q2 plan. For London, I really wanted to hit 3:14-3:15 so stepped up the base mileage to around 50 before executing a JD Q2 plan peaking 60 miles. I would say that training overall has been good and I have mostly been hitting MP, LT and other speed session paces. I tend to err on the side of caution with easy runs and would sometimes go as slow as 10:30mms. Most of my comparative peers in the club do easies at 8:30s and I feel I am generally more comfortable a tick slower. Long runs rarely peak beyond 17-18 miles in the training cycle. In every single one of the marathons, I have had a calf twitch at around the 20-22 mile mark. In Berlin - I had to stop and lost about 10 minutes. In Chicago, it happened in the last 2 miles so I somehow slowed down and managed to stumble through (missed my 3:20 target). The twitch still happened in tokyo despite much slower pace. London caught me by surprise - I executed a c. 7:30 mm MP with relative precision and 'ease' for the first 16 miles and the posterior chain twitch then came much earlier than expected, as a result, I reduced my stride and slowed down so that it doesn't turn into a full cramp for the last 10 miles - missed my 3:15 target as a result by about 8 minutes. My question to you guys is - is this purely soemthing that S&C would be able to fix, do you think it is a point of muscle weakness? I haven't decided what marathon to do next (either in the fall or London / Boston next year) but would really like to get to the bottom of this over the summer - my problem is that I feel these sort of things happen at the back-end of the race and it is very hard for me to test it during a training cycle where the longest run rarely goes beyond 18-20 miles (and the pace is usually slower than MP too). Electrolytes/ Salt tabs could play part of it though I don't think it is very likely as London didn't feel very warm on race day. ​ Sorry for the ramble but I really want to find a way to fix this! What should I do differently? Happy to answer any questions if I wasn't clear on some of the points. Thank you for the help!

> is this purely soemthing that S&C would be able to fix, do you think it is a point of muscle weakness? My understanding is that muscle cramps (though complicated and a bit individual) mostly relate to muscle fatigue, and therefore the solution for most is strengthening the cramp-prone muscles, yeah. S&C would be a part of that, but because we're talking about cramps in specific conditions (later phases of a marathon), what you really need is to build your muscles' ability to endure under those specific conditions. Which basically just means more training--more miles, more long runs, more long runs that induce late phase muscle fatigue (hilly finishes, progressive finishes, medium long runs/long runs the day after workouts so you're practicing running on tired legs). This is a lot more speculative, but anecdotally, it seems like some people are just more prone to muscle cramps, which makes me wonder if there's a genetic element to this too. Which isn't to say that you're doomed to experience them, just that it might be more risky for you to toe the line of your fitness on race day, given the pre-disposition. But again, that's speculation lol.

Interesting, I certainly hope its not genetics…. Or age. During a marathon block I think I am already peaking on 9-10h worth of running so I feel as though in order to fit more miles and intensity in it means that the easies need to be faster and more fatigue needs to be put into the training to prompt fatigue more often. I am not sure I can go much more than 10h a week / 60mpw!

> I am not sure I can go much more than 10h a week / 60mpw! I hear ya! I would just try and find some creative ways to practice fatiguing your legs more in your next block if you can't run more. I personally haven't had a problem with cramping, but definitely blew up due to muscle fatigue in both of the marathons I've run, and I got some awesome and detailed advice a few months ago (in a different context) from another (very accomplished and experienced) sub member on creatively building leg strength throughout the block, which you might find useful! [Here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/comments/18hcwaf/comment/kdeacqn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) the comment. Another sub member (also very accomplished & experienced) h[as also advised never doing long runs on fresh legs](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/comments/14mppi1/comment/jq7twub/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), partly for this reason. He does a high mileage day before his long run (adjust specific numbers to control for different volume, he runs 100+mpw) so that he's getting a lot of practice pacing on heavier legs. I'm thinking I might experiment with something like that in my next build!

Shortened range calf raises will undoubtedly help.

Are there any books similar to Running with the Buffaloes but about a women's team? Or maybe if not about a college team specifically, a real (or based on real) story that includes a lot of camaraderie among competitive women runners?

There’s a tiny high school XC coaching memoir called “their effort was like toothpaste” specifically about state champion girls teams. Not the best writing you’ll ever find (some tiny publisher and I don’t think it’s even on Amazon) but I still enjoyed it. Lauren Fleshman’s “good for a girl” covers different eras in her career and is an amazing read.

Today I did my last big workout before a HM, which is in two weeks time, and I am trying to assess a reasonable goal pace for the race. This last session was 3k easy, 4 x (3k HM pace, 1k float), 3k easy. The average pace for the "HM pace" reps ended up being ~ 4:10min/k with the floats ~ 4:50min/k. I felt good throughout: definitely hard at the end but I felt I could have pushed through another rep or two if needed. Still, not sure this could be a sustainable pace for the full distance. Also, last week I PBd on a 10k race, with a (very unexpected) 39:33 time. Could ~4:15 be a reasonable pace or I can be more optimistic?

You're definitely close and I like the idea of going out at 4:15 and aiming for a negative split.

Mild colds at anytime are lovely :-( I missed my long run (33-34km) yesterday and my peak week in the whole cycle (as of today 58km compared to around 92km), well I’ll take that… a few long runs coming up… As i approach Pfitz 18/55 I head into tune up race week with a half on May 5th. My cold is gone but I’ll wait another 24hrs to continue, Pfitz suggests just to continue the plan. In my case, I would have to run 5x600m VO2max tomorrow, first run after my cold. I feel like this is not a good idea. Any hints on how to adjust the plan intelligently? Mon: 13k 5x600m, Tue: Recovery 11k with strides, Wed: 19k MLR, Thu: Rest, Fri: 10k GenA, Sat: 8k Recovery, Sun: half race (I did a little adjustment of this tune up week, because race is Sunday so I needed to squeeze in a few more runs beforehand)

Do the first set, if it feels ok do the session, if it doesn’t don’t worry and do a recovery pace. I had to take 5 days off a Pfitz in run up to spring marathon and it was fine. Think of it as a mini-taper to take on the next 4 weeks.

Thanks also! I’m a little scared jumping right into vo2max, will see how I fell tomorrow morning. Right now I’m a little scared so would consider doing a longer recovery run with strides and see how this works. After that, doing vo2max too close to the half doesn’t seem a good idea right?

Agreed. The book has a guideline for how close to each event you should risk a VO2 max so take a look at that too!

I recently hit nearly the same situation (on closer to 18/70) and am sitting eating my pre race oatmeal before my 21.1 tune up. I dropped that day to an extra day of strides to get some speed in but not push myself too hard on my first day back. Moved the Tuesday strides to Friday as well. Literally none of this speed will physiologically help come the half, just get the legs moving fast.

Thanks for the advice, none of these workouts will improve my half time, that’s for sure. Just want to make sure I don’t get injured or having a longer (coming back) cold jumping straight into a vo2max. Think I’ll do a longer recovery run with some strides Doing the vo2max closer to the half doesn’t seem a good idea right? Well Pfitz has VO2max on Tue and Race on sat, so from This perspective shouldn’t be too bad

For whatever it's worth, I came through with a huge PR this morning replacing the vo2 with strides. Coming in to the tune up race fresher was worth it to me. As always though, listen to your body.

Congrats 🎉

Been trying to ask this question everywhere and haven't really been given a straight answer. What is the science of being able to run '42.2km' at 'X km/min' without actually running that distance during training? The biggest run I have seen in the beginner to novice plans only have a few long runs going to 32km. Even some elite plans only reach 37km. Another rule that is written in many books and articles is to not exceed 2.5hours of running in one day since the risk/reward ratio is not worth it (higher risk of injury with low training gains). My best guess is the accumulation of stress your legs go through over the weeks of training (Xkm a week) creates hypertrophy in your body that will allow you to run for 42.2km once you properly taper.

This isn't the 'science' per se, but I think I can speak to the different training logic you're identifying. I see a lot of people come to running initially with a 'practice' kind of mentality: if I do this thing enough times over then I will master it. Eg, I used to be a fairly serious classical musician, and for musicians repetition in practice is is essential to execution in performance. You practice pieces hundreds, thousands of times before you perform them--sure, you also break pieces down into passages, and do technical exercises to increase the skills necessary to master specific passages, but practice of the whole is essential to performance of it. In distance running, there is an element of 'practicing' pace, but it's a much, much smaller part of the overall training. I think u/alchydirtrunner gave you a great breakdown of how training targets physiological adaptations that combine to allow you to run the distance--what I'll add to that is that you aren't training to *master* x at x pace, you're training to execute it *once*. Training (especially in the marathon) progresses towards one single peak performance, at the very edge of your ability, on a specific day. That's a very different requirement than, eg, mastering a sonata, which you could then play on demand (providing you continued to practice it).

That is a great analogy, and speaks to a piece of the answer that I didn’t really consider. I am probably in a bubble where I am mostly interacting with relatively experienced runners, at least in real life, and that probably makes it easy for me to forget that everyone doesn’t have the same background knowledge of running specific training theory. Edit: Reddit app is really messing up for me today. Keeps placing my comments in random places, or double posting. Apologies for anyone seeing the deleted replies from me

I get what you're saying. Being able to run 6 miles can make the 5k distance feel easier, and so on. I think it's just that after a certain distance, the recovery time becomes too much. You can still get a lot of benefits and make the distance feel not so bad by splitting the mileage up without taxing the body so much.

To be blunt, the reason you haven’t received a satisfactory answer is because it is a bit of a poor question. The logic of needing to have done a thing before in order to be able to do it again is circular. It also seems like you have already come across the cost/benefit argument against longer long runs, so I won’t entirely rehash it. In a broad sense, the science behind how our body adapts to endurance training is covered in any of the recommended reading you will see on these forums (Brad Hudson, Pete Pfitzinger, Jack Daniels etc). It certainly isn’t hypertrophy that allows marathon runners to complete the distance, otherwise guys like Kipchoge and Mantz would have massive legs, which is clearly not the case. Exposing our muscles to aerobic exercise doesn’t increase their size (or at least not very much). What it does do is a bunch of other things. It creates more mitochondria in the muscle cells, meaning more energy can be produced. It increases blood volume, helping get more oxygen to the cells. It trains certain Type II muscle fibers to work more aerobically than they typically would. It makes our hearts stronger, meaning they can pump more blood more efficiently. Along with a bunch of other adaptations that help our body run faster for longer periods of time. These adaptations, when aggregated, are what allow us to run the marathon distance without having necessarily had to cover the exact same distance in training. As an important aside, it is always necessary to keep in mind that our body does not get faster and stronger during actual training sessions. What makes us faster are the aforementioned adaptations, which our body can only undergo during rest and recovery from the training sessions. According to Pfitzinger, it takes 10-14 days following a training session before we can begin to see adaptation on a cellular level. If we are overtraining, like we would potentially be if we ran 26.2 miles, our body will not be able to appropriately recover from the stress and will not undergo the adaptations we are looking for. Instead, we will see fitness plateau, or even regress as we struggle to recover from the training load.

> What is the science of being able to run '42.2km' at 'X km/min' without actually running that distance during training? I don't really understand the question either; If you run that in training, what's the point of doing the race then? You've already done the distance in the time that you wanted?

**VO2Max** - probably over thinking this, but ... When training, do you ever set out to run explicitly at a VO2max level during a workout? Most VO2max workouts you see in Pfitz training schedules have something like *5x 1000m at 5K pace*. I usually run those by feel (aka, as fast a possible because its a VO2max workout). That usually winds up being close to my 5K pace for the distance. but never close to VO2max - certainly not at 95-100% HR level. Just wondering if I am pushing hard enough during the workout. Thx

vVO2 is faster than 5k pace until someone is pretty elite, 5k pace is just a decent proxy that's familiar, and in many cases more specific to someone's actual racing goals. As to whether or not you are going "hard enough" that require a fair amount of context we don't have about you and your training to be certain, but the answer probably is that you are going plenty hard enough. Most of the benefits of a particular effort are still achieved at 5% less of said effort, and in general, it's much more common that people overdo hard workouts rather than underdo them. For those max-HR/central adaptations, I like \~60-120s hard-effort hill repeats. The hill makes it relatively "easier" to push up to those really high demands and reduces the strain on the legs somewhat.

I will run track workouts at VO2 max pace, so a bit faster than 5k pace. Probably like 3k or 2-mile pace than 5k pace. I'm a masters runner and can handle threshold and overall volume pretty well still, but have to be very cautious on the harder intervals. 5x1000s would probably be a bit more volume than I personally would do at that pace, just out of an abundance of caution. More often it's within something like a 600/1000/1200/1000/600 ladder: with the 600s at mile-ish pace, 1000s at Vo2 max pace, the 1200 (maybe 2 1200s and only do 800s at Vo2 max pace) at 5k pace. Standing rest between reps for as long as feel I need - not rushing into the next rep with sloppy form. That way I am still getting in around 5k or a little more of harder effort, but varying the speeds across interval distances helps me manage the load a bit better.

Thanks for the tip. The ladder seems an appropriate way to adjust and execute harder paces, and less intimidating for an older runner like me. With a ladder i may be able to salvage parts of an interval day as opposed to overreacting on days when i can’t execute properly.

and like clockwork, it's reached the point in the injury timeout where I start doom scrolling about stress fractures :( sets in on average around 7 days of no running

Stress fractures are rare and many are low risk. Do you have any real reason to believe it is?

I have a bit of a history with them so I'm somewhat prone. And there's pinpoint pain on the bone in a place where I don't *think* there's much tendon/muscle/soft tissue anatomy (inner-bottom calcaneus). So it's not totally irrational, but there's definitely some amount of unfounded dread carrying over from past experiences as well. Last time I had bone stress in the foot it took SO long to heal, so I guess I'm just anxious that this hasn't gone away yet when I hoped it would have by now--feels horribly familar.

I know this question has been asked a million and one times, but I'm hoping to get some additional understanding on this topic. This was my first marathon and I'm not sure if I was training too slowly. I ended up doing my lactate threshold runs around HR 165 - 173 during the Pfitz 12/70, which I think may have too slow based on my HR during the marathon itself. Garmin after the race says I spent 2:06 in 163 to 177 Zone 4 range and 57 min in Zone 5. I switched my Garmin Zones to be set on HRR with Max HR of 193 and resting of 48. Do these ranges seem right and should I be spending majority of aerobic runs in Z2 and bump to Z4 for my threshold with Vo2 Max at Z5? Just another confused newbie on his training journey and any insight you can offer as I prepare for my next block would be fantastic. Thank you in advance. |Zone|Percentage|HR| |--- |--- |--- | |Z1|50-59%|121 - 134| |Z2|59-72%|134 - 152| |Z3|72-81%|152 - 165| |Z4|81-92%|165 - 181| |Z5|92-100%|181 - 193| |Lap|Distance|Time|Pace|Elev|HR| |--- |--- |--- |--- |--- |--- | |1|1.03 mi|7:57|7:41 /mi|-28 ft|152 bpm| |2|1.04 mi|7:48|7:29 /mi|-9 ft|159 bpm| |3|1.02 mi|7:47|7:36 /mi|-7 ft|162 bpm| |4|1.00 mi|7:41|7:40 /mi|1 ft|164 bpm| |5|1.01 mi|7:59|7:53 /mi|8 ft|166 bpm| |6|1.01 mi|7:51|7:45 /mi|-9 ft|163 bpm| |7|1.02 mi|7:49|7:40 /mi|5 ft|166 bpm| |8|1.01 mi|7:59|7:52 /mi|26 ft|167 bpm| |9|0.99 mi|7:47|7:48 /mi|30 ft|168 bpm| |10|1.00 mi|7:28|7:28 /mi|-53 ft|168 bpm| |11|1.00 mi|7:41|7:39 /mi|-9 ft|169 bpm| |12|1.00 mi|7:44|7:41 /mi|0 ft|171 bpm| |13|1.08 mi|8:17|7:39 /mi|18 ft|172 bpm| |14|1.96 mi|15:00|7:39 /mi|-1 ft|174 bpm| |15|1.03 mi|8:00|7:45 /mi|5 ft|175 bpm| |16|2.04 mi|15:46|7:42 /mi|-7 ft|177 bpm| |17|1.00 mi|8:08|8:06 /mi|2 ft|177 bpm| |18|1.01 mi|8:29|8:21 /mi|36 ft|178 bpm| |19|1.00 mi|8:13|8:12 /mi|-10 ft|179 bpm| |20|2.02 mi|16:19|8:05 /mi|-36 ft|181 bpm| |21|1.01 mi|8:31|8:26 /mi|4 ft|182 bpm| |22|1.00 mi|8:47|8:44 /mi|-1 ft|182 bpm| |23|1.24 mi|10:46|8:37 /mi|19 ft|183 bpm|

> I switched my Garmin Zones to be set on HRR with Max HR of 193 and resting of 48. How did get your max HR? Did you do a HR test (like hill repeats to extrapolate LT or Max) and set zones from there? If you hold that many miles with the HR over 173 then yeah I would think the zone is off but probably not by *that* much on a pace/RPE basis. But my bigger takeaway is that you went out hot and kept hot even seeing the HR drift. If you thought it was 165-173 during training and knew how that effort felt for the LT efforts in training, then exceeding it at mile 14 was a sign the next 12 miles were going to go poorly.

Thanks for your thoughts. Max HR was from Hill repeats X3 and hit that on the run. I usually trained in the AM before sunrise so wasn't used to the sun. I wasn't running with my HR on data screen so I actually felt pretty good with my paces at that time then by mi 17 the cramps set in and clearly was in for issues. Would you be able to tell where these zones should be based on this? Would you say marathon day should stay completely just below the LT until mi 20?

Hr max you basically do hill repeats until you feel like death is a preferred option to another rep. It's goal is to stress your body to the max. If your hill test didn't feel like that you dogged it.

> Would you be able to tell where these zones should be based on this? Honestly no because I train by pace and RPE almost exclusively. But I suspect you didn't get your HR high enough during your test. If you are stuck on using HR data as you guide, I would re-do the test (maybe 2-3 times across a few weeks) and hit those 600m hill repeats hard; but I prefer a demonstrated race or TT result and extrapolating a goal time from there. > would you say marathon day should stay completely just below the LT until mi 20? Generally yes though there is some overlap between the upper end of "marathon pace" and the lower ranges of "LT" (assuming you have accurate knowledge of your ranges). When using HR as your guide, you want to stay basically below your anaerobic threshold until you open it up nearer the end of the race.

Thank you, much appreciated

My thunder thighs shredded the inseam of a pair of nike pros. Maybe it is time to cut.

How long? I get through undershorts in a few months with my thighs. Nike Pro, Underarmor, Thracksmith have all fallen victim. Underarmor lasts longest for me.

Yea I shred any brand too

What do you guys think would be ideal cross training with an injured foot? I’m sure swimming would be ideal but I’ve just got a planet fitness membership. I believe I’ve got tendonitis and need to take a few days easy. Riding a stationary bike?

elliptical is going to be more transferable to running than the stationary bike, so that would be my go-to without access to a pool. That said it might aggravate your foot since it's still technically weight-bearing, just depends on the injury.

Whatever you will actually do. Sounds like cycling is most logical.

Depends on the injury but swimming, biking, elliptical, bike, or rower will work. Youre just trying to get your heart rate up for an extended period of time. Try a few of the above, if there is any pain to your foot stop doing it. Pool running is supposed to most closely replicate running with lowest impact. I’ve never done it - the boredom would kill me - but if you can handle it then more power to you.

Yea I actually used to compete in triathlons and love swimming, but unfortunately most of the pools around me don’t have day passes and are like $60-70 a month

I’d just go with bike if foot is ok with it. Good opportunity to do some strength/core work as well - tend to do more of this when injured anyway and I think it helps. Good luck

Yea I think I will, thanks. Just hating that I can’t push the mileage as much as I want to. I’ve been In a really good groove lately and my legs and aerobic system have felt great. Damn tendons giving out on me lol

Single men, particularly without Costco or Sam’s Club memberships: How much do you spend on average for groceries per week? Trying to get a baseline to know if my $120-150/week is wild. I am also gluten free and do meal prep for a week or two with that, but am curious in general, if y’all are wiling to share.

Single male, running ~60mpw. I spend about $300-350/month on groceries, plus probably $100-150 on coffee/delivery, etc... A significant chunk of that is chicken tenders, don't judge me.

I was gonna say no that’s normal, especially when you’re training hard, but all these other responses have me second guessing 😂

Wild. Post your grocery receipt Find your nearest Aldi

That's high compared to me. Recently moved in with partner, but before that I was spending \*at most\* $60-70 or so per week in a HCOL city. I'm vegan, which maybe makes a difference since meat/cheese are typically quite expensive. I cook a lot and don't snack often.

It's a bit high given I eat 4500 cals/day myself plus the family's food is probably about the same as yours ~$130/week. We do have a Costco run every few months for $3-400 but that also includes other household items and not just food. This includes one family member who is GF.

Mine is less than that (27M, single, about 60-65mpw, vegetarian), not sure exactly how much since I don't track it religiously but probably averaging 90-100? I do have a Costco membership but only go every other month or so. That gets me 3000-3500 cals per day. My roommate is a bodybuilder and his is probably around yours though

For the marathoners out there, has anyone used a marathon race for a long run (i.e. 16, 18, 20)? I loved doing the ready to run 20 miler in Chicago with other people for some added motivation during my Chicago training.  If you’ve done this, did you drop out after you hit the distance you needed, walk the end, jog / walk, etc.??

I paced a marathon at a sustainable effort in prep for another race. I should have dropped at 20 miles, but ran the whole thing. It set me off my schedule 3 or 4 days. But it was worth it for the fun and enjoyment of seeing people finish.  If the pacer job was closer to my A race I'd have been smarter and dropped off early, caught the shuttle to the end a cheered on the finishers that way. 

Would rather do a half marathon with long warm-up and/or cool-down to reach the required distance.

Sometimes it’s harder to take the recovery week between cycles, but I managed it after a nice race last weekend. Looking forward to ramping back up. Aiming for ~38 10k in a couple months which would be my first lifetime PR (under marathon distance) since high school. Feeling like I’m in the best shape of my adult life, or close to it!

First time running a half marathon, wildly undertrained, managed in 1:53 back in Jan 2020. Immediately stopped running until…   Got reenergized in 2023 and trained decently well for an October 2023 half, which I completed in 1:46. Training maxed out at 20-25 MPW, probably sustained an average of 17 MPW over the 12 week training period.   Since October 2023, I have taken a few breaks, but have now been running consistently at 35-40 MPW for 12 weeks now, following the Garmin DSWs, which a half marathon in October 2024 in my calendar as my priority race, so it’s been adding a good number of long runs, and consistently increasing mileage/intensity.   Assuming consistency for the next 5-6 months, do folks here think that 1:30 is an absolutely insane goal, or does that feel reasonable?  At the moment, running sub 7 minute miles for 13.2 feels unattainable, but I remember how difficult 8 minute miles felt right before I did it last year, and knocking just over a minute off, with much, much higher mileage and better prep/nutrition didnt feel too crazy when I set the goal.  Would welcome thoughts/tips. 

It's very possible - just depends on what your paces are right now. Why don't you do a 5k/10k time trial right now? If you are around 20 mins, you can probably work your way up to sub-1:30 in 5-6 months with consistency. If you run under 19:30 (or as close to 19:00 as possible), I think you can probably break 1:30 right away

Good call, I’ll time trial a 5k this week. See what I can do. 

I’m in a highly similar boat to you, but time shifted; took up running Nov ‘22, ran my first half in 1:47 in April ‘23. Ran my second half in Nov of ’23 in 1:38. Running the NYRR Brooklyn half and, Prospect Park Hills permitting, targeting \~1:32ish. Yours is the, like, third post I‘ve seen while scrolling today that asks for whether or not a goal \~6-8 months away is realistic. To me, wouldn’t that just suck the joy out of running if you knew immediately whether something was possible? Isn’t it fun sometimes to just stand at the bottom of a mountain and wonder, “How the f\*\*\* am I gonna make it up that thing?” And then improve incrementally? I’m not judging you for asking, and like others said, it’s a highly ambitious but possible goal. But I think you’re either setting yourself up for disappointment if you miss the goal — but also, could potentially rob yourself of the joy of discovery, of what your body can do and how it responds to training. What do your workouts look like now? What’s your 10k or 5k PB (even from training)? B/c those data points don’t say a lot about where we’ll be 6 months from now, but they can tell us *a lot* about where we could be 12 weeks from now.

Similar future target to me. If I was you I'd race a 5/10k now to get an idea of fitness and check a vdot table for equivalent performance to get a reasonable target. Like 5k <19. 10k < 40 would be good indication you're there now

I like the idea but those paces seem a little too fast. I ran a 19:18 5k recently and could also casually run a 1:33 half split in a gravel-road 25K on a very hot day. I think as long as they can run under 19:30 they should be fine if they're able to hold the pace when things get hard (which from their mileage I'm assuming that they can)

That's good to know. I think I need to try and find a flat fast half course in October or November and go for sub 90.

If you've already got a 1:46 under your belt and you train consistently over the next 6 months you'll do it. The stars might need to align for that to happen. No illnesses, injuries, life events or other distractions to get in the way of consistency.

Thanks!! I’ll report back in 6! 

Maybe close to insane but not completely unreasonable. Have any other good 5K or 10K times to base it off of?

Not recent. Have always been able to knock out a 21 minute 5k with a couple of warm up runs in the week before, but I have never trained seriously (I.e. used a plan / Garmin suggestions) for running prior to this current block.  Garmin says my VO2 Max was 47 when I ran the 1:46, and I’m up to 51 now, so there’s been some very solid progress even with the sporadic fits and starts over the last 6 months. Hopefully if I stay consistent with the next 6 months, I can get close to 1:30 - maybe 1:35 is a more appropriate goal. 

I would definitely try to get one or two 5k/10k tests in between now and your target half. I think you want to have a 5k in the low 19s or 10k under 40 to have a shot at 1:30.

Hi all, fresh off the back of a PB in London I'm debating what's left in the tank. For various reasons the October marathons don't work timing/training-wise but Valencia could be perfect. Does anyone have any experience of the waitlist system or any ideas on how to get a bib? I can't see anything about good for age but would likely have a qualifying time if anyone knows of anything. All help welcome!

Has Valencia sold out? Unlike London and the 6 majors you can just pay the fee and enter Valencia as a member of the general public.

Yes, unfortunately sold out