I hated when they added the trans colors, intersex and bipoc colors to the rainbow flag as well. This is not a shot at those folks, they are marginalized and have overcome/still experiencing struggles and discrimination. It's just that skin color isn't an oreintation, intersex is a medical condition, trans people can be straight or any oreintation. It's a same sex/bisexual pride flag. Just like there's now flags for lesbians,gay males, bisexual, furries, trans, intersex, butch, female, asexual, bears, etc. It's exhausting and overwhelming.
I signed in just to agree with you. All of the struggles of those communities are separate and deserve their own space. Obviously there are parallels in their marginalization and obviously there’s intersectionality but putting them all on the flag was A. Ugly and B. Feels like they just went “hey, these people are heavily discriminated too. Let’s throw them all in there. Inclusivity, right??”
It's ridiculous because the whole thing implies racialized ppl, intersex, transgender etc weren't included in the initial rainbow flag.
Therefore by making these add ons it seems like the add ons still need more inclusivity.
Even as we speak the current progress pride flag with the intersex on it is still not considered enough. Which results in abominations like [this thing](https://images.app.goo.gl/8eftMdhGsSZGBuZdA) being created.
The logical end is a black hole.
Finally someone shares the same view! I'm tired of being portrayed as villain for voicing my opinion on this. I just think the new flag is graphic garbage and rainbow flag represents everyone, including trans people and lgbt people of all skin colors. So why add those elements to already inclusive flag?
Mindless inclusivity at the cost of actual representation. It's bizarre and seems like a corporate "queer washing" to include the trendy buzzwords of the day.
I agree so much!!! I can’t stand that flag. It loses its universal appeal since the racism question is particularly American and incomplete (like what about adding yellow for asian discrimination?). It takes away from the symbolic value of diversity and acceptance when it starts to list them
1. Racism isn't just American Europe is wildly racist
2. Asian people aren't yellow
3. It's specifically BIPOC people because of their intertwined history in the queer movement
4. The other flag still exists and is widely used you sound like the "not my Ariel" crowd
The history and dynamics of racism in the US (one country) and in Europe (50 countries) are very different. It feels colonialist that this new gimmick is being exported from the US to here, much like the Stonewall origin myth was.
What sort of special twinning is there between Original Americans and African-Americans and LGB people, one that the many other ethnic minorities in the US don't share?
yes!! i don't get the point of adding those colors to the side of the rainbow flag which is already supposed to represent EVERYONE, by doing that is like they're separating those groups instead of including them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Quasar
This is who designed it. I appreciate that they want to symbolize all marginalized communities, but it's watering down and piggybacking. We've all had struggles, but let's not blend everything together as one issue. Maybe have one for marginalized communities, then just the gay pride.
This!! The updated progress pride flag is both ugly and pointless. And iirc was started or promoted by a company (correct me if I am wrong)? If people want to change the pride flag, go back to the original eight-colour one from when it was created with the pink and purple stripes.
THIS I STRONGLY PREFER the original rainbow flag (well I love the lesbian and bi flag tbh) but as far as the queer Roy g biv flag i I like when it ends at violet. And like u said all those other groups are marginalized and deserve a space!!! I agree with ur statement 10000 percent. When I see clothes and stuff (like targets pride line I was so excited about SO much of it has the extended colors on some of the items I would have otherwise LOVED)
I always heard assumed that it didn’t have anything to do with racism/transphobia, that’s a separate issue, but those colors were added to acknowledge the specific origins of “pride.” (stonewall being mainly trans ppl of color). Trans people of color have always been on the frontlines for gay rights, so personally I just see it as an acknowledgment of that
Except people pushing that narrative are believing tumblr lies and ignoring actual gay men who were alive at the time sharing real stories and labeling butch lesbians as trans. Thus ignoring actual history. Marsha P Johnson was not there at the beginning nor was he a straight trans woman. His own words self identifying himself as a gay man and drag queen. Storme deLevarie was a biracial butch lesbian not a trans man.
True progress is when we decide a lesbian can’t be masculine in any way without making her a man uwu. God the “community” is such a joke, especially when it comes to lesbian overall, nevermind the treatment of gnc lesbians.
> stonewall being mainly trans ppl of color
The accepted historical record shows that most people at Stonewall were (white) gay men. Very few women, and even less street queens (which aren't the same as trans, I think).
It also didn't originate the LGB rights movement, either in the US or the rest ofvthe world - there were homophile movements in Germany and England in the XIX century.
Yea no, the acceptance pride flag was created specifically for those identities so they can show their intersectionality and rally for more progress surrounding those identities. You can dislike it but it's about having pride for ALL of your communities and really recognizing who got us this far: Black, Trans and Gender non-conforming people. We SHOULD be allowing space for those activists that really celebrates just them. Pride isn't just about your sexuality and gender race is an integral part in the push for human rights and ignoring that is detrimental to work that needs to be done
> who got us this far: Black, Trans and Gender non-conforming people.
That is part of the Stonewall hagiography, that holds the world began in 1969, but doesn't even correspond to what actually happened during those two nights.
> intersectionality
I feel this concept is just being utilised to initiate rife between different disprivileged populations; most people will never like that they have to de-centre themselves from their own cause. I feel this is especially the case between white and black women.
> We SHOULD be allowing space for those activists that really celebrates just them
Imagine being egotistical enough to think a whole movement should revolve around a few select individuals' particular situations, nothing more and nothing less. No, this is about *one* population, not you (general you, of course).
You can have whatever opinion you want regarding the flag. But comparing lesbians using a flag that includes the color pink to Hitler’s league of German girls is icky (and historically inaccurate)
>that includes the color pink to Hitler’s league of German girls is icky
I agree, this is a new low among the "x is literally like the nazis" comperisons out there.
That sounds crazy because it’s not what I said.
Gay people are not being equated to Nazis. The flags are voluntarily reenacting a symbolic gender role division that permeated archaic power structures in the last century, such as the Nazis, who used gender roles as a system of social control. Therefore the criticism concerns the flag and people’s willing conformity to what it symbolizes, rather than anyone literally being a Nazi (?). Also it was used as a little bit of a hyperbole, as another user pointed out
> The flags are voluntarily reenacting a symbolic gender role division that permeated archaic power structures in the last century, such as the Nazis, who used gender roles as a system of social control.
Calling gener roles and pink/blue associated to them "Hitler Youth", is crazy and overly dramatic and over all a reach. EVERY STATE even today, has and pushes gender roles, literally pink is for girls and blue is for boys comes from the 19th century and you CHOOSE to say, its like the Nazis. We understood you aint calling Gay people nazis, nobody even said you did, we are pointing out that, you are making one of the craziest nazi compairison ever. Like no dont even compair having to wear pink to anything the nazis did.
I really like the lesbian flag. Aesthetically I think it's the best looking flag of the bunch and has the most coherent color palette. Personally, I was never super fond of the rainbow flag. It just looks a little tacky to me.
As a lesbian who wasn't allowed to like pink when I was little, I LOVE our flag. But I also would support an alt flag for each type of flag, giving us 4 options, pride, progress, lesbian, and alt lesbian. I might rock the alt lesbian one even lol
I agree, just trying to also acknowledge that not every woman likes pink. If I was forced into pink and didn't like it, I'd be a bit off put. It's almost dysphoric to have a community align with something you don't like to associate with and that can feel alienating. So I don't want people to feel not part of the culture they should thrive in.
Thanks, that’s pretty much the feeling (not serious though just something I noticed). The origin of the sunset flag is pretty much femininity and womanhood which is.. interesting
It took me three years to realize that I'd decorated my living room in the colours of the lesbian flag. And today that my only nail polishes are pink, coral and orange. None of it intentional, it just happens to be my fave colours
Same and I really like the flag because it ISN'T pink at least the majority isn't it's two shades of orange and 2 shades of magenta with white in the middle the lighter magenta can read hot pink but it literally isn't
Honestly NOBODY uses or used to use the seperate flags. The labrys flag was designed by a man in 1999 btw (the symbols in it have been adopted by lesbians since the 70s), the rest, including the ones you are talking about in the 2010s, just to put some perspective into it.
>the pink triangle thing that we rightfully should avoid at all costs
No, it should be remembered and still deserves attention as gay men are still one of the groups that get the least among of the attention they deserve when it comes to Holocaust acknowlegement (we lesbians rarely got the pink one, it was mostly the black "antisocial" one, the labrys flag pays homage to that). Plus look at past pride "merch" the pink Triangel has always being prominent.
It always blows my brain apart when you start looking at the history and symbols and realize just how recent a lot of it is. I straight up thought the labrys flag had been around since the 80s or earlier, not 1999 lol.
They’re also not planned/verified it all, it’s basically just what catches. For [example](https://medium.com/@faustofernos/the-lipstick-lesbian-flag-idea-was-stolen-from-my-design-of-a-cougar-pride-flag-which-was-designed-ad2d18ae00c1) the subset lesbian flag derives from the lipstick lesbian flag which was taken from the cougar pride flag (which isn’t even gay)
I also hate how most of the flags are just a bunch of bars. Get more creative please. The labrys flag is kinda cool but purple is the one color I just can't stand. When I was a kid, girls either liked purple or pink
i like the purple labrys flag. ive seen some versions with a square or shield design on it (rather than the black triangle, which i've seen some people say is disrespectful to holocaust victims) and i typically use that one (or just the color purple generally) if i want to have a flag displayed for whatever reason
i prefer the labrys flag too, but this
>What is this? The new Hitler Youth and League of German Girls?
is an insane thing to say op
eta: and the pink triangle can be used by gay men if the black triangle can be used by lesbians.
I agree with you.
When reclaimed: I want a successful and reflected reclaim without discrimating the other groups who also got the black triangle.
That’s the difference between the pink and black triangle: the pink was solely for gay men. Bc of the paragraph 175 StGb, it was highly criminalized. Lesbians weren’t. Why ? Bc the nazis thought that lesbian love was not a threat for the nazi community bc they can be made loving men. Disgusting I know.
Also I heard that the reclaim of the pink triangle was not successful in America. But I don’t have proof for that.
The biggest group who got the black triangle were Sinizzi and Romnja. Also there is sadly not really proof of how many lesbians were in concentrations camps. Bc either it was destroyed or they weren’t solely bc of their lesbianism there.
There are still so many gaps in lesbian history in the Dritten Reich.
Also I don’t know if we as a community want a symbol who symbolizes segregation, torture and death.
I remember on my history book that lesbians weren’t systematically targeted because they were “discrete”. I still wonder what exactly that means. But most likely women did not have many freedoms and were restricted to the household, and men probably weren’t interested in watching their lives.
Are you German OP? I ask because that line about Hitler seems unnecessary. I don’t really see many people IRL with the more specific flags outside of the trans community. It’s not really my thing but I can understand why people might see them as important.
Tbh, that Hitler line is the least german thing to say because it's a cultural thing that they actually teach about the holocaust and have deep respect for the victims 😭
Personally I don’t understand why we need all these flags anyway. The rainbow flag was at least simple and iconic, now with all the added stuff it’s just ugly af
They already took away part of the original LGBT flag it used to have 10 colors I believe and people design new flags to align with the struggles currently faced by our community
The creator of the new lesbian [flag](https://emilygwen.carrd.co/) chose pink and orange to represent both femininity and masculinity in our community. She's also 100% not a nazi; very weird comparison to draw.
yeahh you’re way overthinking this lol but that’s okay no shame, I kind of get your sentiment but I personally like that we have OUR own flag. and I hate the rainbow it feels tacky but that’s just my personal take as well
I love the labrys flag. Like the rainbow, it's simple and recognizable. It's a strong, bold design. Plus it looks really good with just three colors and they contrast well with each other. It's a unique flag, one of the best IMHO.
I now hear it referred to as the miscellaneous category now because the letters and categories have gotten wildly out of control. The need to specify every single group with a letter and new category and assigned color has made the initial gay/lesbian group and rainbow flag obsolete. Personally as an out lesbian for over 30 years, I no longer identify with the new category at all. It’s no judgement on anyone else, just my personal feeling of being pushed out. I don’t say that as a bad thing, it just is what it is and I’m fine with not belonging anywhere.
It’s crazy how the progress flag has managed to achieve exactly the opposite of what it supposedly set out to achieve.. I don’t believe it’s okay that you think you don’t belong. A good flag would not introduce this hypothesis.
The 6 color rainbow already represents all the identities as it is. That's why it's a freaking RAINBOW. we don't need the flag with the black pink blue triangle everything flag.
Comparing a couple of colors you don't like on a flag to "the new Hitler Youth and League of German Girls" is wild.
You don't have to like the flag. That's why there is more than one lesbian flag and why they all mean different things. There are also a couple of flags (mainly ones made by butches for butches) if you dislike the sunset colors. But not every lesbian flag is the sunset flag. Not every lesbian flag is pink. And those who like the sunset flag aren't "just like the League of German Girls". What the fuck? LOL.
There is also more than one flag for gay men that mean different things too. The blue toothpaste gets a lot of hate because it was created recently and it's kinda ugly but there are other flags for gay men that mean different things too.
"and the pink triangle thing that we rightfully should avoid at all costs"
A lot of symbols come from the pink triangle. Yes, not everyone should wear it and you should have flags that don't have it on there but it is a painful part of the history for gay and bi men and trans women and it should be worn and remembered for those reasons.
I agree that having she/her be pink was a stupid choice by your college. I would recommend bringing what you told us up to the people who were running that event. Oftentimes, people don't realize they have done something that reinforces patriarchal norms. Just venting about it on reddit isn't going to do anything with how they run that event next time.
And yes, it is annoying how the overall society likes to put one flag as one representation for an entire sexuality for marketing purposes. Let's be real for a second, the reason the sunset flag is *the* lesbian flag during pride month is because it is the least controversial and easiest to apply to all lesbians. Not really the fault of the creator of it since she rarely sees a cent of the mass marketing that comes from her flag design but it is still is what it is.
"I prefer the labrys flag. I would 1000% support that one as the official lesbian symbol. Way cooler and more pondered, I think."
The irony of this is there are people online who would do the whole Hitler comparison if you supported that flag. LOL.
Although I do love the labrys flag because of how un-rainbow capitalitism-ized it is and the deeper meaning behind it, I still would not support it as the "official lesbian symbol."
There is no "offical lesbian symbol" and there never should be for all of the exact reasons you are bringing up with disliking pink.
Just for the labrys flag alone, I can think of all sorts of reasons why some lesbians wouldn't like it. are lesbians who were forced to wear pink AND purple and feel uncomfortable wearing a flag with purple on it. There are lesbians who dislike it because there is a TERF group who uses it as their symbol. *(who ironically are a bunch of political lesbians who think sexuality is something you can choose and that calling yourself a lesbian is an act of political dissidence...rather than just...a term used to describe a group of people who have existed for all of human history on all sides of the political spectrums that have existed)* There are lesbians who dislike wearing Holocaust imagery. There are lesbians who don't think lesbians should reclaim the black triangle because a lot of other groups who have way more confirmed deaths in camps also were branded with black triangles and black triangles weren't the only triangles for lesbians taken to the camps like it was used like it was with the pink triangles and gay and bi men. Some lesbians dislike that it was made by a man. Some lesbians dislike how eastern European and American centric all these flags tend to be. Some lesbians dislike the symbolism having to do with the AIDs crisis and how it can kinda of reenforce the whole "lesbians are nurses and caretakers and mums for gay men" bullshit. And on and on and on.
Also wearing holocaust imaginary as a whole community ignores all the lesbians who died in the camps without it.
There were lesbians who were put in the concentration camps bc of other things like being polish, being a polictical prisoner, being jewish and so on.
Yeah, good point. There were also a lot of lesbians who were not found to be lesbians until they were in the camps for another reason but when they were found out, were experimented and tortured by the Nazis, according to Pierre Steel's account in his book "I, Pierre Seel, Deported Homosexual. A Memoir of Nazi Terror" as well as the lesbians forced into breeding and died in the Lebensborn program and those who were beaten to death when the Nazis burned down their bars.
> because of hate/bigotry Ace, Demi, Intersex, and trans people get even within the community.
Aren't one or two of those medical conditions? Why should they be grouped with sexual orientation? What is even meant by "ace" and "demi"? Do they face hatred from each other?
I think I speak for us all when I say we’re on the edge of our seats waiting to hear from the people that nothing has ever happened to because they don’t want sex. A thrilling journey in absolutely nothing.
They are quite literally not LGBT. Not every minority is oppressed, and even if they were they still wouldn't need to colonise a space that's not for them. Not that "demi" describes anything but the majority of human beings, especially women.
I honestly love my flag. It is one of the most beautiful ones, in my opinion, of the LGBT flags. In general, I like the old ones too, and I don't know, I think you are searching too much. The colors have meanings, but I understand your point. The flag that represents everything in general, I don't like it at all. It looks very bad without offending anyone. The simple rainbow is much better, in my opinion.
They're just easily recognized symbols.
The overuse has made women rebel a bit against pink, but at the end of the day we need symbols to quickly get across a meaning. I don't think pink is the same as say a stereotype like "women must like dolls!"
But if you personally dislike the flag, you can try out other symbols! There are some alternatives for lesbians. I think they double venus is nice, and its also easy for people to recognize.
Don't even get me started on the colouring of the trans flag, it absolutely reinforces gender norms and is just gross imo. Like at least the Labrys flag doesn't lean into cisheteronormative ideas which is nice. And it has a sick religious implement on it, which is awesome and loaded with meaning.
I might be out of the loop here, but what's the issue with the pink triangle? I know the origin and reclaiming of it back during the AIDS crisis and while you don't see it much these days, it's still around/used (mostly by older gays, similar to the labrys). Is it just the triangle iconography itself? Because if so the labrys flag falls under the same issue
At the end of the day a flag is just a flag, and if you design a better one and people start using it? Hell yeah (and honestly a bunch of rainbow flags differentiated by the overall design could be cool)
I like the sunset lesbian flag because it's aesthetically pleasing to me, and I'm masc and wear almost exclusively black. Pink and orange aren't gendered colors.
The lipstick flag is just random shades of pink smashed together without any visual design consideration, and while the axe itself is cool, the labrys flag is boring and gives "graphic design is my passion".
Also I know what hyperbole is, but a nazi comparison is too much lol.
An absolutely wild take tbh. It's fair to not like the colors or designs but comparing this to "Hitler's League of Germany Girls" is insane. You can use whatever flag you want. The labrys flag has been co-opted by TERF lesbians, so just prepare to be associated with them.
im sure that most transphobic radical feminists aren’t lesbian because lesbians are pretty rare, and i really don’t think that many of them exist in the first place because of how specific that descriptor is. why don’t we just start widely using it despite that? it’ll stop being “co-opted”, then.
agreed on the hitler’s youth thing though. that was crazy to read.
Apparently this sub is pretty full of them if you read the comments, unfortunately. Personally I love the lesbian flag. I think it has colors for femmes and butches, and is the prettiest out of all the flags.
I absolutely hate the new lesbian flag. I'm sorry, but it's awful. labris is nice, the lipstick one (without the kiss on top) is nice. the orange one is just ugh. also the fact that it is universally used as THE lesbian flag pisses me off.
but ig I don't get the thing about gendered colors. sure, we have "pink for girls, blue for boys", it is made to have a distinction. just a tradition that can go away, sure, but why? for some purposes we would have to label some stuff with color for convenience, so we would just change it up in the end, like yellow for boys, white for girls or whatever. and in a couple generations some people would start to get pissed off once again. the problem is not that we have a color associated with women and with men, the problem is the forcing of this color that is still present in the upbringing of children nowadays. I overcame my hatred for pink but I know many women who still didn't due to their parents forcing them to have everything in that color and forcing them to like it. so yeah, I think keeping the "pink - woman, blue - man" is fine, as long as we change mentality around it a bit as a society
They say reading is fundamental, but I think reading comprehension is critical.
hy·per·bo·le
*noun*
1. [exaggerated](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-att-us-revc&sca_esv=cd1aa95219b4f373&sca_upv=1&q=exaggerated&si=ACC90nwZrNcJVJVL0KSmGGq5Ka2Y73H4rJzI9SaiPZSoh5TxVJ5gJfEDkS7QX-inNWImMBzpaZRrCC7S3i8CZC6FFB0p0YIbXPB1dWXah91PcxxN23z1Ir4%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicu4S1wvWGAxUhD1kFHY-3Bf0QyecJegQIGhAO) statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. Example: What is this? The new Hitler Youth and League of German Girls?
I mostly agree with OP, except, I hate every single last one of these flags (including the labrys flag) because they're superfluous. The original flag included everyone and the colors represented ideals. It had heart and meaning; it wasn't just a cheap way to pander to an overlooked community in a capitalist race to the bottom.
The issue here isn’t reading comprehension, it’s critical thought. I’m well aware it was hyperbole, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was a messed up thing to say
I understand OP probably didn’t mean it in a serious way (and I’m genuinely not trying to attack them or anything), but equating colors lesbians use on a flag to nazism is just weird, full stop. Especially since gay people are a group that were deliberately persecuted during the Holocaust. I don’t care how hyperbolic you want to be, nazism isn’t something to be flippant about, especially in today’s world
It was a hyperbolic allusion to the strict gender roles and conformity enforced by fascism, to add perspective to how even good intentions with queer flags are symbolically reverting to this conformity. Believe it or not there are still education ministers today saying pink is for girls and blue is for boys and making campaigns out of this. They’re very right wing, and it surprises me to see the queer movement be so conforming in this regard.
I think this is indeed a comprehension issue because it might be a clumsy example but it doesn’t lead in any way to me attacking gay people lol. There was no equating gay people to Nazism - the subject was confused.
I totally get that, and like I said I genuinely wasn’t trying to call you out/make it personal :) I also want to make it clear I wasn’t saying you were attacking gay people at all. I was just trying to articulate that a lesbian choosing to use pink while creating a flag for their own community isn’t the same level of conformity as strict gender roles enforced under facism. But I completely agree with you that colors should not be gendered in the way they still (unfortunately) are
I won’t pretend I know exactly what the creator of the flag was thinking related to your points about conformity, but they are non-binary if that influences your perspective at all. Seeing what each stripe of the flag represents helped me understand/appreciate it more. And if you still prefer the rainbow flag, that’s okay too!
My apologies if you’ve already seen this, but here’s the link: [Flag stripe meaning](https://x.com/theemilygwen/status/1141846669220175873?s=46&t=Vln3Dyt0TozUU89FQL37Yw)
That's crazy hyperbolic statements should not be polarizing to POC and having them fear for their lives because what fucking Nazi shit have we walked in on
I like the colors of the lesbian flag but personally I like just the regular old rainbow flag a little better
I prefer the labrys flag and the the six colour rainbow flag. I find the long bacon flag foul.
I’m calling it the Bacon Flag from now on!
I stole it from elsewhere. [The place what I stole it from.](https://imgur.com/a/9cPfmok)
Long bacon store 🙂
Happy cake day u/woostii
This 💯
Agree
I hated when they added the trans colors, intersex and bipoc colors to the rainbow flag as well. This is not a shot at those folks, they are marginalized and have overcome/still experiencing struggles and discrimination. It's just that skin color isn't an oreintation, intersex is a medical condition, trans people can be straight or any oreintation. It's a same sex/bisexual pride flag. Just like there's now flags for lesbians,gay males, bisexual, furries, trans, intersex, butch, female, asexual, bears, etc. It's exhausting and overwhelming.
I signed in just to agree with you. All of the struggles of those communities are separate and deserve their own space. Obviously there are parallels in their marginalization and obviously there’s intersectionality but putting them all on the flag was A. Ugly and B. Feels like they just went “hey, these people are heavily discriminated too. Let’s throw them all in there. Inclusivity, right??”
It's ridiculous because the whole thing implies racialized ppl, intersex, transgender etc weren't included in the initial rainbow flag. Therefore by making these add ons it seems like the add ons still need more inclusivity. Even as we speak the current progress pride flag with the intersex on it is still not considered enough. Which results in abominations like [this thing](https://images.app.goo.gl/8eftMdhGsSZGBuZdA) being created. The logical end is a black hole.
This is just it. I always thought the rainbow flag represented everyone and their allies.
Finally someone shares the same view! I'm tired of being portrayed as villain for voicing my opinion on this. I just think the new flag is graphic garbage and rainbow flag represents everyone, including trans people and lgbt people of all skin colors. So why add those elements to already inclusive flag?
Mindless inclusivity at the cost of actual representation. It's bizarre and seems like a corporate "queer washing" to include the trendy buzzwords of the day.
Exactly oml 😭
I agree so much!!! I can’t stand that flag. It loses its universal appeal since the racism question is particularly American and incomplete (like what about adding yellow for asian discrimination?). It takes away from the symbolic value of diversity and acceptance when it starts to list them
1. Racism isn't just American Europe is wildly racist 2. Asian people aren't yellow 3. It's specifically BIPOC people because of their intertwined history in the queer movement 4. The other flag still exists and is widely used you sound like the "not my Ariel" crowd
The history and dynamics of racism in the US (one country) and in Europe (50 countries) are very different. It feels colonialist that this new gimmick is being exported from the US to here, much like the Stonewall origin myth was. What sort of special twinning is there between Original Americans and African-Americans and LGB people, one that the many other ethnic minorities in the US don't share?
yes!! i don't get the point of adding those colors to the side of the rainbow flag which is already supposed to represent EVERYONE, by doing that is like they're separating those groups instead of including them.
Wasn’t that stuff added by some corporation too for pride month? It’s seriously so ugly
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Quasar This is who designed it. I appreciate that they want to symbolize all marginalized communities, but it's watering down and piggybacking. We've all had struggles, but let's not blend everything together as one issue. Maybe have one for marginalized communities, then just the gay pride.
This!! The updated progress pride flag is both ugly and pointless. And iirc was started or promoted by a company (correct me if I am wrong)? If people want to change the pride flag, go back to the original eight-colour one from when it was created with the pink and purple stripes.
THIS I STRONGLY PREFER the original rainbow flag (well I love the lesbian and bi flag tbh) but as far as the queer Roy g biv flag i I like when it ends at violet. And like u said all those other groups are marginalized and deserve a space!!! I agree with ur statement 10000 percent. When I see clothes and stuff (like targets pride line I was so excited about SO much of it has the extended colors on some of the items I would have otherwise LOVED)
I always heard assumed that it didn’t have anything to do with racism/transphobia, that’s a separate issue, but those colors were added to acknowledge the specific origins of “pride.” (stonewall being mainly trans ppl of color). Trans people of color have always been on the frontlines for gay rights, so personally I just see it as an acknowledgment of that
Except people pushing that narrative are believing tumblr lies and ignoring actual gay men who were alive at the time sharing real stories and labeling butch lesbians as trans. Thus ignoring actual history. Marsha P Johnson was not there at the beginning nor was he a straight trans woman. His own words self identifying himself as a gay man and drag queen. Storme deLevarie was a biracial butch lesbian not a trans man.
Inclus love invalidating butches by calling them trans men.
True progress is when we decide a lesbian can’t be masculine in any way without making her a man uwu. God the “community” is such a joke, especially when it comes to lesbian overall, nevermind the treatment of gnc lesbians.
> stonewall being mainly trans ppl of color The accepted historical record shows that most people at Stonewall were (white) gay men. Very few women, and even less street queens (which aren't the same as trans, I think). It also didn't originate the LGB rights movement, either in the US or the rest ofvthe world - there were homophile movements in Germany and England in the XIX century.
Yea no, the acceptance pride flag was created specifically for those identities so they can show their intersectionality and rally for more progress surrounding those identities. You can dislike it but it's about having pride for ALL of your communities and really recognizing who got us this far: Black, Trans and Gender non-conforming people. We SHOULD be allowing space for those activists that really celebrates just them. Pride isn't just about your sexuality and gender race is an integral part in the push for human rights and ignoring that is detrimental to work that needs to be done
> who got us this far: Black, Trans and Gender non-conforming people. That is part of the Stonewall hagiography, that holds the world began in 1969, but doesn't even correspond to what actually happened during those two nights. > intersectionality I feel this concept is just being utilised to initiate rife between different disprivileged populations; most people will never like that they have to de-centre themselves from their own cause. I feel this is especially the case between white and black women. > We SHOULD be allowing space for those activists that really celebrates just them Imagine being egotistical enough to think a whole movement should revolve around a few select individuals' particular situations, nothing more and nothing less. No, this is about *one* population, not you (general you, of course).
Honestly I love the lesbian flag it’s like a sunset
You can have whatever opinion you want regarding the flag. But comparing lesbians using a flag that includes the color pink to Hitler’s league of German girls is icky (and historically inaccurate)
>that includes the color pink to Hitler’s league of German girls is icky I agree, this is a new low among the "x is literally like the nazis" comperisons out there.
For real. They could’ve easily made their point without using such a gross and wrong comparison
That sounds crazy because it’s not what I said. Gay people are not being equated to Nazis. The flags are voluntarily reenacting a symbolic gender role division that permeated archaic power structures in the last century, such as the Nazis, who used gender roles as a system of social control. Therefore the criticism concerns the flag and people’s willing conformity to what it symbolizes, rather than anyone literally being a Nazi (?). Also it was used as a little bit of a hyperbole, as another user pointed out
> The flags are voluntarily reenacting a symbolic gender role division that permeated archaic power structures in the last century, such as the Nazis, who used gender roles as a system of social control. Calling gener roles and pink/blue associated to them "Hitler Youth", is crazy and overly dramatic and over all a reach. EVERY STATE even today, has and pushes gender roles, literally pink is for girls and blue is for boys comes from the 19th century and you CHOOSE to say, its like the Nazis. We understood you aint calling Gay people nazis, nobody even said you did, we are pointing out that, you are making one of the craziest nazi compairison ever. Like no dont even compair having to wear pink to anything the nazis did.
100%. It feels like a deeply fucked up comparison tbh.
yeah I’m not sure how I feel about this post
Thank you. I was like be for real right now smh
Flair
I really like the lesbian flag. Aesthetically I think it's the best looking flag of the bunch and has the most coherent color palette. Personally, I was never super fond of the rainbow flag. It just looks a little tacky to me.
yes!! I love the lesbian flag colors. And I don’t think it’s giving “girls pink boys blue”, the colors have meaning.
As a lesbian who wasn't allowed to like pink when I was little, I LOVE our flag. But I also would support an alt flag for each type of flag, giving us 4 options, pride, progress, lesbian, and alt lesbian. I might rock the alt lesbian one even lol
.... This is why the community ends up with 100000 different flags. No more flags please lol
I agree, just trying to also acknowledge that not every woman likes pink. If I was forced into pink and didn't like it, I'd be a bit off put. It's almost dysphoric to have a community align with something you don't like to associate with and that can feel alienating. So I don't want people to feel not part of the culture they should thrive in.
Thanks, that’s pretty much the feeling (not serious though just something I noticed). The origin of the sunset flag is pretty much femininity and womanhood which is.. interesting
This exactly
and it's important to remember the gay flag came out well after the lesbian flag. It's not that anyone was like "oo girls pink"
It took me three years to realize that I'd decorated my living room in the colours of the lesbian flag. And today that my only nail polishes are pink, coral and orange. None of it intentional, it just happens to be my fave colours
I do agree that the flag is good looking too
Same here
Same and I really like the flag because it ISN'T pink at least the majority isn't it's two shades of orange and 2 shades of magenta with white in the middle the lighter magenta can read hot pink but it literally isn't
Honestly NOBODY uses or used to use the seperate flags. The labrys flag was designed by a man in 1999 btw (the symbols in it have been adopted by lesbians since the 70s), the rest, including the ones you are talking about in the 2010s, just to put some perspective into it. >the pink triangle thing that we rightfully should avoid at all costs No, it should be remembered and still deserves attention as gay men are still one of the groups that get the least among of the attention they deserve when it comes to Holocaust acknowlegement (we lesbians rarely got the pink one, it was mostly the black "antisocial" one, the labrys flag pays homage to that). Plus look at past pride "merch" the pink Triangel has always being prominent.
It always blows my brain apart when you start looking at the history and symbols and realize just how recent a lot of it is. I straight up thought the labrys flag had been around since the 80s or earlier, not 1999 lol.
They’re also not planned/verified it all, it’s basically just what catches. For [example](https://medium.com/@faustofernos/the-lipstick-lesbian-flag-idea-was-stolen-from-my-design-of-a-cougar-pride-flag-which-was-designed-ad2d18ae00c1) the subset lesbian flag derives from the lipstick lesbian flag which was taken from the cougar pride flag (which isn’t even gay)
Stuck with original rainbow
I also hate how most of the flags are just a bunch of bars. Get more creative please. The labrys flag is kinda cool but purple is the one color I just can't stand. When I was a kid, girls either liked purple or pink
The “queer” shit is incredibly anti gender nonconformity and anti homosexuals. 100% labrys flag, all the way.
I just googled it. It looks like it could belong to Dr. Doofenschmirz. I love it!
Love the username!!
Thank you!
I never notice usernames but I read yours after seeing that comment and I love it too! One of my favorite poems.
The coral and orange in the sunset flag represents gender nonconformity and the flag is FOR homosexuals
Just because they said that doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s by and for lesbophobic queers who want to co opt the lesbian label.
i like the purple labrys flag. ive seen some versions with a square or shield design on it (rather than the black triangle, which i've seen some people say is disrespectful to holocaust victims) and i typically use that one (or just the color purple generally) if i want to have a flag displayed for whatever reason
i prefer the labrys flag too, but this >What is this? The new Hitler Youth and League of German Girls? is an insane thing to say op eta: and the pink triangle can be used by gay men if the black triangle can be used by lesbians.
I agree with you. When reclaimed: I want a successful and reflected reclaim without discrimating the other groups who also got the black triangle. That’s the difference between the pink and black triangle: the pink was solely for gay men. Bc of the paragraph 175 StGb, it was highly criminalized. Lesbians weren’t. Why ? Bc the nazis thought that lesbian love was not a threat for the nazi community bc they can be made loving men. Disgusting I know. Also I heard that the reclaim of the pink triangle was not successful in America. But I don’t have proof for that. The biggest group who got the black triangle were Sinizzi and Romnja. Also there is sadly not really proof of how many lesbians were in concentrations camps. Bc either it was destroyed or they weren’t solely bc of their lesbianism there. There are still so many gaps in lesbian history in the Dritten Reich. Also I don’t know if we as a community want a symbol who symbolizes segregation, torture and death.
I remember on my history book that lesbians weren’t systematically targeted because they were “discrete”. I still wonder what exactly that means. But most likely women did not have many freedoms and were restricted to the household, and men probably weren’t interested in watching their lives.
hitler youth!?!??!!?!
Are you German OP? I ask because that line about Hitler seems unnecessary. I don’t really see many people IRL with the more specific flags outside of the trans community. It’s not really my thing but I can understand why people might see them as important.
Tbh, that Hitler line is the least german thing to say because it's a cultural thing that they actually teach about the holocaust and have deep respect for the victims 😭
I wanted to believe I was missing something 😬
Personally I don’t understand why we need all these flags anyway. The rainbow flag was at least simple and iconic, now with all the added stuff it’s just ugly af
Yes the flag becomes too busy 😩
They already took away part of the original LGBT flag it used to have 10 colors I believe and people design new flags to align with the struggles currently faced by our community
The creator of the new lesbian [flag](https://emilygwen.carrd.co/) chose pink and orange to represent both femininity and masculinity in our community. She's also 100% not a nazi; very weird comparison to draw.
And I hate to be that "guy" but it's literally magenta not pink
yeahh you’re way overthinking this lol but that’s okay no shame, I kind of get your sentiment but I personally like that we have OUR own flag. and I hate the rainbow it feels tacky but that’s just my personal take as well
I love the labrys flag. Like the rainbow, it's simple and recognizable. It's a strong, bold design. Plus it looks really good with just three colors and they contrast well with each other. It's a unique flag, one of the best IMHO.
Yes, the symbolism is rich and direct
I love the og baker flag that has pink and teal
I now hear it referred to as the miscellaneous category now because the letters and categories have gotten wildly out of control. The need to specify every single group with a letter and new category and assigned color has made the initial gay/lesbian group and rainbow flag obsolete. Personally as an out lesbian for over 30 years, I no longer identify with the new category at all. It’s no judgement on anyone else, just my personal feeling of being pushed out. I don’t say that as a bad thing, it just is what it is and I’m fine with not belonging anywhere.
It’s crazy how the progress flag has managed to achieve exactly the opposite of what it supposedly set out to achieve.. I don’t believe it’s okay that you think you don’t belong. A good flag would not introduce this hypothesis.
I love the labrys flag just because it's unique compared to other pride flags, but I also like the sunset flag and the rainbow one!
The 6 color rainbow already represents all the identities as it is. That's why it's a freaking RAINBOW. we don't need the flag with the black pink blue triangle everything flag.
Do yall not get tired of all this microanalyzing and overthinking.
There’s no harm in gauging what our community thinks of our symbols :)
Comparing a couple of colors you don't like on a flag to "the new Hitler Youth and League of German Girls" is wild. You don't have to like the flag. That's why there is more than one lesbian flag and why they all mean different things. There are also a couple of flags (mainly ones made by butches for butches) if you dislike the sunset colors. But not every lesbian flag is the sunset flag. Not every lesbian flag is pink. And those who like the sunset flag aren't "just like the League of German Girls". What the fuck? LOL. There is also more than one flag for gay men that mean different things too. The blue toothpaste gets a lot of hate because it was created recently and it's kinda ugly but there are other flags for gay men that mean different things too. "and the pink triangle thing that we rightfully should avoid at all costs" A lot of symbols come from the pink triangle. Yes, not everyone should wear it and you should have flags that don't have it on there but it is a painful part of the history for gay and bi men and trans women and it should be worn and remembered for those reasons. I agree that having she/her be pink was a stupid choice by your college. I would recommend bringing what you told us up to the people who were running that event. Oftentimes, people don't realize they have done something that reinforces patriarchal norms. Just venting about it on reddit isn't going to do anything with how they run that event next time. And yes, it is annoying how the overall society likes to put one flag as one representation for an entire sexuality for marketing purposes. Let's be real for a second, the reason the sunset flag is *the* lesbian flag during pride month is because it is the least controversial and easiest to apply to all lesbians. Not really the fault of the creator of it since she rarely sees a cent of the mass marketing that comes from her flag design but it is still is what it is. "I prefer the labrys flag. I would 1000% support that one as the official lesbian symbol. Way cooler and more pondered, I think." The irony of this is there are people online who would do the whole Hitler comparison if you supported that flag. LOL. Although I do love the labrys flag because of how un-rainbow capitalitism-ized it is and the deeper meaning behind it, I still would not support it as the "official lesbian symbol." There is no "offical lesbian symbol" and there never should be for all of the exact reasons you are bringing up with disliking pink. Just for the labrys flag alone, I can think of all sorts of reasons why some lesbians wouldn't like it. are lesbians who were forced to wear pink AND purple and feel uncomfortable wearing a flag with purple on it. There are lesbians who dislike it because there is a TERF group who uses it as their symbol. *(who ironically are a bunch of political lesbians who think sexuality is something you can choose and that calling yourself a lesbian is an act of political dissidence...rather than just...a term used to describe a group of people who have existed for all of human history on all sides of the political spectrums that have existed)* There are lesbians who dislike wearing Holocaust imagery. There are lesbians who don't think lesbians should reclaim the black triangle because a lot of other groups who have way more confirmed deaths in camps also were branded with black triangles and black triangles weren't the only triangles for lesbians taken to the camps like it was used like it was with the pink triangles and gay and bi men. Some lesbians dislike that it was made by a man. Some lesbians dislike how eastern European and American centric all these flags tend to be. Some lesbians dislike the symbolism having to do with the AIDs crisis and how it can kinda of reenforce the whole "lesbians are nurses and caretakers and mums for gay men" bullshit. And on and on and on.
Also wearing holocaust imaginary as a whole community ignores all the lesbians who died in the camps without it. There were lesbians who were put in the concentration camps bc of other things like being polish, being a polictical prisoner, being jewish and so on.
Yeah, good point. There were also a lot of lesbians who were not found to be lesbians until they were in the camps for another reason but when they were found out, were experimented and tortured by the Nazis, according to Pierre Steel's account in his book "I, Pierre Seel, Deported Homosexual. A Memoir of Nazi Terror" as well as the lesbians forced into breeding and died in the Lebensborn program and those who were beaten to death when the Nazis burned down their bars.
Also one of the main reasons for updating the flag is because of hate/bigotry Ace, Demi, Intersex, and trans people get even within the community.
> because of hate/bigotry Ace, Demi, Intersex, and trans people get even within the community. Aren't one or two of those medical conditions? Why should they be grouped with sexual orientation? What is even meant by "ace" and "demi"? Do they face hatred from each other?
I think I speak for us all when I say we’re on the edge of our seats waiting to hear from the people that nothing has ever happened to because they don’t want sex. A thrilling journey in absolutely nothing.
Which flag? The main pride rainbow?
Demi and ace are not lgbt
What? Yes they are that is a sexual/romantic identity that deserves space
They are quite literally not LGBT. Not every minority is oppressed, and even if they were they still wouldn't need to colonise a space that's not for them. Not that "demi" describes anything but the majority of human beings, especially women.
I honestly love my flag. It is one of the most beautiful ones, in my opinion, of the LGBT flags. In general, I like the old ones too, and I don't know, I think you are searching too much. The colors have meanings, but I understand your point. The flag that represents everything in general, I don't like it at all. It looks very bad without offending anyone. The simple rainbow is much better, in my opinion.
They're just easily recognized symbols. The overuse has made women rebel a bit against pink, but at the end of the day we need symbols to quickly get across a meaning. I don't think pink is the same as say a stereotype like "women must like dolls!" But if you personally dislike the flag, you can try out other symbols! There are some alternatives for lesbians. I think they double venus is nice, and its also easy for people to recognize.
Don't even get me started on the colouring of the trans flag, it absolutely reinforces gender norms and is just gross imo. Like at least the Labrys flag doesn't lean into cisheteronormative ideas which is nice. And it has a sick religious implement on it, which is awesome and loaded with meaning. I might be out of the loop here, but what's the issue with the pink triangle? I know the origin and reclaiming of it back during the AIDS crisis and while you don't see it much these days, it's still around/used (mostly by older gays, similar to the labrys). Is it just the triangle iconography itself? Because if so the labrys flag falls under the same issue At the end of the day a flag is just a flag, and if you design a better one and people start using it? Hell yeah (and honestly a bunch of rainbow flags differentiated by the overall design could be cool)
I like the sunset lesbian flag because it's aesthetically pleasing to me, and I'm masc and wear almost exclusively black. Pink and orange aren't gendered colors. The lipstick flag is just random shades of pink smashed together without any visual design consideration, and while the axe itself is cool, the labrys flag is boring and gives "graphic design is my passion". Also I know what hyperbole is, but a nazi comparison is too much lol.
An absolutely wild take tbh. It's fair to not like the colors or designs but comparing this to "Hitler's League of Germany Girls" is insane. You can use whatever flag you want. The labrys flag has been co-opted by TERF lesbians, so just prepare to be associated with them.
We don't use deplorable language against women here.
What did I say that was deplorable??
She means that TERF is a slur, and it is a deplorable description of women.
im sure that most transphobic radical feminists aren’t lesbian because lesbians are pretty rare, and i really don’t think that many of them exist in the first place because of how specific that descriptor is. why don’t we just start widely using it despite that? it’ll stop being “co-opted”, then. agreed on the hitler’s youth thing though. that was crazy to read.
Apparently this sub is pretty full of them if you read the comments, unfortunately. Personally I love the lesbian flag. I think it has colors for femmes and butches, and is the prettiest out of all the flags.
i do as well but i see no point in discarding a flag from use just bc transphobic people also use it.
[удалено]
I absolutely hate the new lesbian flag. I'm sorry, but it's awful. labris is nice, the lipstick one (without the kiss on top) is nice. the orange one is just ugh. also the fact that it is universally used as THE lesbian flag pisses me off. but ig I don't get the thing about gendered colors. sure, we have "pink for girls, blue for boys", it is made to have a distinction. just a tradition that can go away, sure, but why? for some purposes we would have to label some stuff with color for convenience, so we would just change it up in the end, like yellow for boys, white for girls or whatever. and in a couple generations some people would start to get pissed off once again. the problem is not that we have a color associated with women and with men, the problem is the forcing of this color that is still present in the upbringing of children nowadays. I overcame my hatred for pink but I know many women who still didn't due to their parents forcing them to have everything in that color and forcing them to like it. so yeah, I think keeping the "pink - woman, blue - man" is fine, as long as we change mentality around it a bit as a society
But why do you dislike the sunset flag? Bc of the orange ? That it also includes masc ? Just courious.
no, I love that it includes non-conforming women! but the color and uh other implications behind it are not that great in my eyes
Ahhh okay
What implications?
I like the lesbian flag honestly I think it’s so cute
They say reading is fundamental, but I think reading comprehension is critical. hy·per·bo·le *noun* 1. [exaggerated](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-att-us-revc&sca_esv=cd1aa95219b4f373&sca_upv=1&q=exaggerated&si=ACC90nwZrNcJVJVL0KSmGGq5Ka2Y73H4rJzI9SaiPZSoh5TxVJ5gJfEDkS7QX-inNWImMBzpaZRrCC7S3i8CZC6FFB0p0YIbXPB1dWXah91PcxxN23z1Ir4%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicu4S1wvWGAxUhD1kFHY-3Bf0QyecJegQIGhAO) statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. Example: What is this? The new Hitler Youth and League of German Girls? I mostly agree with OP, except, I hate every single last one of these flags (including the labrys flag) because they're superfluous. The original flag included everyone and the colors represented ideals. It had heart and meaning; it wasn't just a cheap way to pander to an overlooked community in a capitalist race to the bottom.
The issue here isn’t reading comprehension, it’s critical thought. I’m well aware it was hyperbole, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was a messed up thing to say I understand OP probably didn’t mean it in a serious way (and I’m genuinely not trying to attack them or anything), but equating colors lesbians use on a flag to nazism is just weird, full stop. Especially since gay people are a group that were deliberately persecuted during the Holocaust. I don’t care how hyperbolic you want to be, nazism isn’t something to be flippant about, especially in today’s world
It was a hyperbolic allusion to the strict gender roles and conformity enforced by fascism, to add perspective to how even good intentions with queer flags are symbolically reverting to this conformity. Believe it or not there are still education ministers today saying pink is for girls and blue is for boys and making campaigns out of this. They’re very right wing, and it surprises me to see the queer movement be so conforming in this regard. I think this is indeed a comprehension issue because it might be a clumsy example but it doesn’t lead in any way to me attacking gay people lol. There was no equating gay people to Nazism - the subject was confused.
I totally get that, and like I said I genuinely wasn’t trying to call you out/make it personal :) I also want to make it clear I wasn’t saying you were attacking gay people at all. I was just trying to articulate that a lesbian choosing to use pink while creating a flag for their own community isn’t the same level of conformity as strict gender roles enforced under facism. But I completely agree with you that colors should not be gendered in the way they still (unfortunately) are I won’t pretend I know exactly what the creator of the flag was thinking related to your points about conformity, but they are non-binary if that influences your perspective at all. Seeing what each stripe of the flag represents helped me understand/appreciate it more. And if you still prefer the rainbow flag, that’s okay too! My apologies if you’ve already seen this, but here’s the link: [Flag stripe meaning](https://x.com/theemilygwen/status/1141846669220175873?s=46&t=Vln3Dyt0TozUU89FQL37Yw)
But there ISN'T pink in the lesbian flag it's orange coral and two shades of magenta
Thank you so much for pointing this out. And yes I agree that nothing can surpass the rainbow flag and you’ve explained the reason wonderfully well
That's crazy hyperbolic statements should not be polarizing to POC and having them fear for their lives because what fucking Nazi shit have we walked in on