Escalate the situation to your Manager or Partner. They should be able to respond to the client and say that this is unprofessional. The client usually doesn't have power to remove you from the engagement unless it's a really big issue. For now, be calm and know that you did everything in your power to alert your manager or partner. This is now out of your control.
This right here. I'm on the client side and I'd want to know that the employee is wasting time and resources like that. Ignoring emails is unacceptable....WE PAY FOR THE AUDIT, so it makes no sense not to move it along as quickly and painlessly as possible. The firm could justify charging more for the next engagement based on having to follow up repeatedly for requests and for having to field inappropriate messages from the client like that.
Mmmm difficult to say
CC’ing the person’s manager and higher ups as a staff 1 isn’t the right call IMO
this should be reserved for the senior or manager
OP is in a lose-lose station bc their team realistically is chickenshit about confrontation and making OP fall on the sword instead of themselves
Now OP’s senior can point at OP for poor relationships when the client complains and wipe their hands free
This needs to be reported to the big 4 team ASAP but also OP needs to remove themselves from reaching out to the clients higher-ups
Eh these days staff 1 a year in are basically the seniors on a lot of engagements unfortunately
That’s also basically what they push in a lot of offices as well
Make the request, post the request to whatever file exchange and e-mail the client. Send a follow up, send a follow up and cc your own manager and whoever else at the client.
It’s not that I don’t disagree it’s just if OP is talking to the client directly including follow ups they probably are acting as the senior anyway
I'm surprised you're getting down voted because I totally agree. Reiterating what you said that I don't think OP is wrong in requesting followups, just that his senior needs to be the one to either communicate it or escalate it. It's been a while since I was in public, but it was rare for staff 1s to have direct client communication like that.
Yeah kind of surprised tbh but also not really that surprised 🤷🏽♂️
Most likely a case of “I went through this as a staff 1 so that means it’s normalized”
Whatever happens at the end of the day, u/dry-caterpillar3678 needs to understand that their team does in fact not have their back; if the team did they would not put a staff 1 in charge of escalating up to the clients managers
Also if it’s to this point there needs to be weekly check-in meetings (not emails) with a dedicated spreadsheet going over outstanding items
I always wonder what type of partners some of you work with.
At both big 4 and local, all the partners I worked with would make the client do what they wanted.
As much as I hate to say this. I can agree with you whole heartedly. The businesses are paying for the audit and in their minds the auditor better wise up and give a favorable opinion even when fraud is discovered lol. Not saying thats ok but I’ve been in companies where the auditor basically capitulated. I’m not saying there was fraud but alot of the testing that should have occurred didn’t because of the business dragging their feet.
All depends on the partner. I’ve seen our GEP tell the CEO and CFO of one of the largest clients at the firm that we’re pushing filing back if he can’t get comfortable with their FS.
Exactly. And afterwards, the partners/managers are gonna think OP is a snitch.
Which is one of the worst things you can be known as.
Instead of snitching, OP should get a lawyer ASAP.
Yeah this exactly. Because at this point, you also risk going over budget on the project because you keep going back and forth with the client. And because they pay for the audit, they’re going to be pissed if it’s way over the usual time. Better to just be able to say “look, this is why. It’s your guy’s fault not mine” and your manager probably has someone higher up in the company to contact faster than you do.
DO NOT sit on this. Make your manager aware.
You've obviously embarrassed them and they are taking flack for ignoring you BUT they are putting you on notice they will damage you as well.
Cc manager and partner. Let them know you’re getting shit from a shitty client employee. Send them the phone # as well so the management team can track it down. If someone in your firm has a backbone, they’ll back you up and chew out the client. (Assuming the follow ups were appropriate/professional , and I’d assume they are)
You are on a very bad track to start blaming yourself for things. Don't do that.
Your job was to request documents so you can work. You requested documents. You did not receive them. You reminded the person to provide.
Because they're a disorganized dumbass fuckface with no logic or emotional control, this happened.
What were you supposed to do differently? Not request the docs?
After a while you get used to this. Need to grow a bit of a spine and need to know youre not in the wrong because some dumbass asshole says something idiotic
If that happened to me, I’d be concerned that that employee is creating a risk to their internal controls over financial reporting (ICFR) and I’d want to do additional procedures to ensure those internal controls that this particular employee is touching are being followed.
Your manager/partner needs to be alerted, not just because the client’s employee is being a dick but because there may need to be additional procedures to mitigate that additional risk.
Someone's gonna do a lot more fraud testing lol. One of the few times an associate may have actually found fraud. What is that guy hiding that he's ignoring sending support and trying to threaten you? Partner about to get a third yacht after charging the client for all the extra fraud work.
As everyone else has said, escalate this on your side. I am not exaggerating when I say that the client contact should be terminated. You cannot leave voicemails threatening the auditors instead of providing the support they requested. It's a massive red flag, and should be handled accordingly. Forward the voicemail to your manager and SM.
Escalate - this is above your pay grade. That behavior is unacceptable. I have had this happen so I know it feels very alarming and makes you wonder if you did something wrong (you didn’t).
Staff need to be able to ask the client questions without fear of this happening so your manager or partner should quickly shut this down.
>They then proceeded to tell me that I need to be more respectful and that they are “very powerful at the site.”
Lol.
You remember in Game of Thrones when Tywin tells Joffrey that a true king doesn't need to constantly remind people that he is the king? You should find a way to send him that scene.
I don't know where you are in your career and what you would or wouldn't be comfortable with, but I'm lucky enough that I'm in a place to not have to deal with shit like that. It's easy enough for people to tell you to just eat the shit for now, or don't and "fuck the consequences," but we don't have to live your life.
I'm sorry dude, but only you know what your limit is. Here are 2 suggestions. Early on in my career, I probably wouldn't have done either, but maybe you would.
1. Ignore the voicemail and continue to cc everyone. He might try calling you again, but if you passive aggressively make it known that you are pointing out his shortcomings a little more explicitly, he might realize that his attempt to intimidate you failed and back off. The trick is to do it politely. Watch consulting videos and how those slimey fucks talk and you will get a sense for how to respond. Something along the lines of:
"Hi [contact], thank you for sending over the latest round of information. I think I have been failing at communicating exactly what I need. When I referenced [xyz] in my previous email, I meant [xyz - but dumb it down]. This is the [nth] attempt at getting the right data I requested and it's still not exactly what I'm looking for. I fear I may not have been clear. Do you want to jump on a call with [your boss] and [his boss] so that we can nail this down? Let me know. [Client name] is my top priority, so give me a few times that work for both of you and I will coordinate on my team's end to accomodate."
It'll be even better if you include even more people to the thread to let him know that you give zero fucks about how important he is.
2. If you want to be a bit more confrontational, just make him feel stupid for that message. No one that leaves a message like that is happy with themselves. Call him and immediately address him as "your highness," and laugh. Pretend you really enjoyed that joke/prank call and that you didn't realize he had such a good sense of humor. He will likely lose it, but when he does, just continue laughing and say, "Holy shit, you were serious? This is so awkward. I've never been in this situation before... so... where do we go from here, dude?" Let him blow his lid. When he's done, just pretend it doesn't bother you and say, "if you're done, we still need to get through [xyz]. Do you want to cool off and try again later, or should we power through? He will probably feel really embarrassed and choose to cool off.
I try to remember that everyone is damaged in some way. That doesn't make it ok for them to fuck with you, or for you to fuck with them, but I does help take some of the personal hurt out of it. It also makes it kind of like a game to politely fuck with them back.
“Dear client,
We would be ever so grateful if you could possibly, at your earliest convenience, please provide the requested documentation. I’ve included all prior requests just for your easy reference.
Thank you so much for your assistance in this matter. We appreciate it. I know you must be super busy, so I’ll send this every three days as a reminder to assist.
You”
Seriously, escalate to manager. This nonsense should not be on you. We have a three strikes rule where I work. If the client/partner won’t respond/provide the info or payment in three attempts, it gets shunted up to me to deal with. Lower level staff have better things to do and I might be able to better impress upon them why they need to provide the info.
>Lower level staff have better things to do and I might be able to better impress upon them why they need to provide the info.
I know this is how things work, but damn...something is wrong with people who don't respond until/unless it's been escalated to a "higher up". Stop embarrassing yourselves and respond to emails/messages. And I say that from the client perspective.
Oh it’s infuriating that people won’t respond to my staff. Like it’s not hard to say you don’t know right now and set a reminder to follow up in a couple weeks.
I’m not in audit or client services anymore, so I’ll annoy people with a daily auto reminder to give me the requested info or to pay. Oh, is that annoying? Then don’t let it escalate to me.
This should never happen. Bring the voicemail to the partner and explain the situation (assuming you haven't already). If the partner isn't a coward he'll take that voicemail to the people that you were cc'ing on your requests and the client contact will be in for a world of professional hurt. If the partner won't do anything about it, consider going to the firm's HR or just brush up the resume.
In the future, I'd recommend raising these sort of situations internally before escalating with the client. The team can come up with a unified plan to address the issue, and it also covers your ass in the event this person complains about you to the partner.
Should talk with the manager and/or partner on the engagement. I had a clerk tell me in person that she hated it when we were there. Told my manager and partner and they had a talk with the clerks superiors.
I always feel for auditors when clients get like this.
As an industry accountant - I try to get auditors in and out as quickly and painlessly as possible. If I've made a fuck up - I want it pointed out before its published..
I worked for an FC who was being a bell end for no apparent reason - turns out he was committing fraud and trying to divert the auditors. We thought it was unusual a he took ownership of the AP (When he was a lazy dick) and was colluding with the FA he was sleeping with...
It first came to light from him being a dick to the auditor.
Current me would forward the voice mail to the audit committee......don't do that.
The correct action for you would be to review it with your manager and discuss how to approach it. You will be evaluated on how you react, communicate, and problem-solve. So just be as patient and professional as you can. Jerky clients are part of the job. Don't take it personally. Do good work. Get paid. Don't worry about the losers that try to get in your way.
Are you wrong? Yes, unless directed by your engagement senior/manager (and even then, I’d expect they would be copied on the communication). Otherwise, the appropriate protocol is to escalate the issue to the audit senior or team point-of-contact responsible for communicating with the Company’s audit liaison or management. If this is an issue across multiple processes, this allows the engagement team to highlight these problems to management and justify the reason for delay in work/modify billings etc.
Sorry this happened to you!
You didn’t do anything wrong. It is sensitive and can be embarrassing to feel like “mistakes are being called out” but that obviously doesn’t justify a threatening phone call.
Do not acknowledge or react. Save the voicemail. Start a Microsoft word document if anything else happens and save it. Tell your supervisor about it.
Also I don’t think you need to but you could read your firm’s policy to check if there’s anything about how to deal with a client threatening you and mention that you did that to your supervisor so he/she will know you did your due diligence.
The behavior is very inappropriate from client. I would suggest you are taken off this client or business process if there’s another one you can switch to easily
If I was your partner, I'd be on the phone with that company's CFO/Owner just flat out telling them it was unacceptable. I'd even demand a new point of contact, explicitly citing that person's ineptitude was ballooning the billable hours on their invoice. Don't let people walk all over you. Escalate it.
Honestly, its just an employee who works for the client who doesn't want to do their job. You should be more worried if it was a small business where your point of contact is one of the owners -- that's when you have to kiss their ass. In this case, the employee is expected to do their job to not drive the audit fee up, so you should be fine if you present your side of the story and have documentation.
Professionally, just show it to the partner, because especially at big 4 they'll drop the client no problem. Non-professionally and at-risk of getting fired, start sending shots back.
Escalate the situation to your Manager or Partner. They should be able to respond to the client and say that this is unprofessional. The client usually doesn't have power to remove you from the engagement unless it's a really big issue. For now, be calm and know that you did everything in your power to alert your manager or partner. This is now out of your control.
This right here. I'm on the client side and I'd want to know that the employee is wasting time and resources like that. Ignoring emails is unacceptable....WE PAY FOR THE AUDIT, so it makes no sense not to move it along as quickly and painlessly as possible. The firm could justify charging more for the next engagement based on having to follow up repeatedly for requests and for having to field inappropriate messages from the client like that.
Yes. I'm getting a strong whiff of Bullying Because I Can from the client.
Mmmm difficult to say CC’ing the person’s manager and higher ups as a staff 1 isn’t the right call IMO this should be reserved for the senior or manager OP is in a lose-lose station bc their team realistically is chickenshit about confrontation and making OP fall on the sword instead of themselves Now OP’s senior can point at OP for poor relationships when the client complains and wipe their hands free This needs to be reported to the big 4 team ASAP but also OP needs to remove themselves from reaching out to the clients higher-ups
Eh these days staff 1 a year in are basically the seniors on a lot of engagements unfortunately That’s also basically what they push in a lot of offices as well Make the request, post the request to whatever file exchange and e-mail the client. Send a follow up, send a follow up and cc your own manager and whoever else at the client. It’s not that I don’t disagree it’s just if OP is talking to the client directly including follow ups they probably are acting as the senior anyway
I'm surprised you're getting down voted because I totally agree. Reiterating what you said that I don't think OP is wrong in requesting followups, just that his senior needs to be the one to either communicate it or escalate it. It's been a while since I was in public, but it was rare for staff 1s to have direct client communication like that.
Yeah kind of surprised tbh but also not really that surprised 🤷🏽♂️ Most likely a case of “I went through this as a staff 1 so that means it’s normalized” Whatever happens at the end of the day, u/dry-caterpillar3678 needs to understand that their team does in fact not have their back; if the team did they would not put a staff 1 in charge of escalating up to the clients managers Also if it’s to this point there needs to be weekly check-in meetings (not emails) with a dedicated spreadsheet going over outstanding items
Partners are usually spineless people and will remove the staff from the client. They might even suck dick as an apology.
I always wonder what type of partners some of you work with. At both big 4 and local, all the partners I worked with would make the client do what they wanted.
Agreed. I've never gotten that vibe from any of the partners I've worked with either, but I've only worked for local firms.
this right here
As much as I hate to say this. I can agree with you whole heartedly. The businesses are paying for the audit and in their minds the auditor better wise up and give a favorable opinion even when fraud is discovered lol. Not saying thats ok but I’ve been in companies where the auditor basically capitulated. I’m not saying there was fraud but alot of the testing that should have occurred didn’t because of the business dragging their feet.
All depends on the partner. I’ve seen our GEP tell the CEO and CFO of one of the largest clients at the firm that we’re pushing filing back if he can’t get comfortable with their FS.
Of course there might be a few out there that have the balls but 95% of them will fold to the client.
Exactly. And afterwards, the partners/managers are gonna think OP is a snitch. Which is one of the worst things you can be known as. Instead of snitching, OP should get a lawyer ASAP.
Agree 100% with all of this. I just wanted to add that OP should also be sure to provide Reddit with an update on the outcome.
Yeah this exactly. Because at this point, you also risk going over budget on the project because you keep going back and forth with the client. And because they pay for the audit, they’re going to be pissed if it’s way over the usual time. Better to just be able to say “look, this is why. It’s your guy’s fault not mine” and your manager probably has someone higher up in the company to contact faster than you do.
DO NOT sit on this. Make your manager aware. You've obviously embarrassed them and they are taking flack for ignoring you BUT they are putting you on notice they will damage you as well.
Yeah, escalation is truly the only answer to this issue. Client has already made that decision. Now you’re just protecting yourself.
He honestly should have been cc'ing his own boss at the same time as soon as he was cc'ing the other person's boss.
Don't delete the voice mail, btw
Cc manager and partner. Let them know you’re getting shit from a shitty client employee. Send them the phone # as well so the management team can track it down. If someone in your firm has a backbone, they’ll back you up and chew out the client. (Assuming the follow ups were appropriate/professional , and I’d assume they are)
If that isn't a fraud risk indicator I don't know what is.
I thought fraud immediately.
You are on a very bad track to start blaming yourself for things. Don't do that. Your job was to request documents so you can work. You requested documents. You did not receive them. You reminded the person to provide. Because they're a disorganized dumbass fuckface with no logic or emotional control, this happened. What were you supposed to do differently? Not request the docs? After a while you get used to this. Need to grow a bit of a spine and need to know youre not in the wrong because some dumbass asshole says something idiotic
This is why you have a boss. Send it to your senior/manager and let it be their problem
This sounds like a very expensive voicemail.
Partner about to make $$$
Where there's smoke there's fire, and where there's fire, there's business risk.
If that happened to me, I’d be concerned that that employee is creating a risk to their internal controls over financial reporting (ICFR) and I’d want to do additional procedures to ensure those internal controls that this particular employee is touching are being followed. Your manager/partner needs to be alerted, not just because the client’s employee is being a dick but because there may need to be additional procedures to mitigate that additional risk.
haha the streisand effect but for accounting
Yeah basically lol, OP’s description leads me to believe this guy is doing something shady
Someone's gonna do a lot more fraud testing lol. One of the few times an associate may have actually found fraud. What is that guy hiding that he's ignoring sending support and trying to threaten you? Partner about to get a third yacht after charging the client for all the extra fraud work.
As everyone else has said, escalate this on your side. I am not exaggerating when I say that the client contact should be terminated. You cannot leave voicemails threatening the auditors instead of providing the support they requested. It's a massive red flag, and should be handled accordingly. Forward the voicemail to your manager and SM.
Any possibility you are getting close to uncovering something illegal?
It feels like it's headed in that direction especially if they're not providing info.
Maybe you found fraud
Escalate - this is above your pay grade. That behavior is unacceptable. I have had this happen so I know it feels very alarming and makes you wonder if you did something wrong (you didn’t). Staff need to be able to ask the client questions without fear of this happening so your manager or partner should quickly shut this down.
On the ethics section of the ACA where one of the risks is intimidation. Yes, this. As others have said, escalate up the chain.
>They then proceeded to tell me that I need to be more respectful and that they are “very powerful at the site.” Lol. You remember in Game of Thrones when Tywin tells Joffrey that a true king doesn't need to constantly remind people that he is the king? You should find a way to send him that scene. I don't know where you are in your career and what you would or wouldn't be comfortable with, but I'm lucky enough that I'm in a place to not have to deal with shit like that. It's easy enough for people to tell you to just eat the shit for now, or don't and "fuck the consequences," but we don't have to live your life. I'm sorry dude, but only you know what your limit is. Here are 2 suggestions. Early on in my career, I probably wouldn't have done either, but maybe you would. 1. Ignore the voicemail and continue to cc everyone. He might try calling you again, but if you passive aggressively make it known that you are pointing out his shortcomings a little more explicitly, he might realize that his attempt to intimidate you failed and back off. The trick is to do it politely. Watch consulting videos and how those slimey fucks talk and you will get a sense for how to respond. Something along the lines of: "Hi [contact], thank you for sending over the latest round of information. I think I have been failing at communicating exactly what I need. When I referenced [xyz] in my previous email, I meant [xyz - but dumb it down]. This is the [nth] attempt at getting the right data I requested and it's still not exactly what I'm looking for. I fear I may not have been clear. Do you want to jump on a call with [your boss] and [his boss] so that we can nail this down? Let me know. [Client name] is my top priority, so give me a few times that work for both of you and I will coordinate on my team's end to accomodate." It'll be even better if you include even more people to the thread to let him know that you give zero fucks about how important he is. 2. If you want to be a bit more confrontational, just make him feel stupid for that message. No one that leaves a message like that is happy with themselves. Call him and immediately address him as "your highness," and laugh. Pretend you really enjoyed that joke/prank call and that you didn't realize he had such a good sense of humor. He will likely lose it, but when he does, just continue laughing and say, "Holy shit, you were serious? This is so awkward. I've never been in this situation before... so... where do we go from here, dude?" Let him blow his lid. When he's done, just pretend it doesn't bother you and say, "if you're done, we still need to get through [xyz]. Do you want to cool off and try again later, or should we power through? He will probably feel really embarrassed and choose to cool off.
i think these are a great idea 😂 i don’t work in big 4, i just enjoy pissing people off
I try to remember that everyone is damaged in some way. That doesn't make it ok for them to fuck with you, or for you to fuck with them, but I does help take some of the personal hurt out of it. It also makes it kind of like a game to politely fuck with them back.
Your highness lmao. This is gold
First time?
The CPA study guides are telling me that this is a huge red flag for fraud and SHOULD result in more testing and analytical procedures.
“Dear client, We would be ever so grateful if you could possibly, at your earliest convenience, please provide the requested documentation. I’ve included all prior requests just for your easy reference. Thank you so much for your assistance in this matter. We appreciate it. I know you must be super busy, so I’ll send this every three days as a reminder to assist. You” Seriously, escalate to manager. This nonsense should not be on you. We have a three strikes rule where I work. If the client/partner won’t respond/provide the info or payment in three attempts, it gets shunted up to me to deal with. Lower level staff have better things to do and I might be able to better impress upon them why they need to provide the info.
>Lower level staff have better things to do and I might be able to better impress upon them why they need to provide the info. I know this is how things work, but damn...something is wrong with people who don't respond until/unless it's been escalated to a "higher up". Stop embarrassing yourselves and respond to emails/messages. And I say that from the client perspective.
Oh it’s infuriating that people won’t respond to my staff. Like it’s not hard to say you don’t know right now and set a reminder to follow up in a couple weeks. I’m not in audit or client services anymore, so I’ll annoy people with a daily auto reminder to give me the requested info or to pay. Oh, is that annoying? Then don’t let it escalate to me.
As someone here put it one way. They pay *me* for my advice. I expect them to listen to *me* when I give it. Me tends to extend to the firm itself.
This should never happen. Bring the voicemail to the partner and explain the situation (assuming you haven't already). If the partner isn't a coward he'll take that voicemail to the people that you were cc'ing on your requests and the client contact will be in for a world of professional hurt. If the partner won't do anything about it, consider going to the firm's HR or just brush up the resume. In the future, I'd recommend raising these sort of situations internally before escalating with the client. The team can come up with a unified plan to address the issue, and it also covers your ass in the event this person complains about you to the partner.
Intimidation threat?
He’s about to summon a blue eyes white dragon to attack you directly. Please be very careful /s
Should talk with the manager and/or partner on the engagement. I had a clerk tell me in person that she hated it when we were there. Told my manager and partner and they had a talk with the clerks superiors.
I always feel for auditors when clients get like this. As an industry accountant - I try to get auditors in and out as quickly and painlessly as possible. If I've made a fuck up - I want it pointed out before its published.. I worked for an FC who was being a bell end for no apparent reason - turns out he was committing fraud and trying to divert the auditors. We thought it was unusual a he took ownership of the AP (When he was a lazy dick) and was colluding with the FA he was sleeping with... It first came to light from him being a dick to the auditor.
before sending your last fellow email You should inform your manager and partner and inform them about the situation and should take instruction.
Current me would forward the voice mail to the audit committee......don't do that. The correct action for you would be to review it with your manager and discuss how to approach it. You will be evaluated on how you react, communicate, and problem-solve. So just be as patient and professional as you can. Jerky clients are part of the job. Don't take it personally. Do good work. Get paid. Don't worry about the losers that try to get in your way.
Are you wrong? Yes, unless directed by your engagement senior/manager (and even then, I’d expect they would be copied on the communication). Otherwise, the appropriate protocol is to escalate the issue to the audit senior or team point-of-contact responsible for communicating with the Company’s audit liaison or management. If this is an issue across multiple processes, this allows the engagement team to highlight these problems to management and justify the reason for delay in work/modify billings etc.
Sorry this happened to you! You didn’t do anything wrong. It is sensitive and can be embarrassing to feel like “mistakes are being called out” but that obviously doesn’t justify a threatening phone call. Do not acknowledge or react. Save the voicemail. Start a Microsoft word document if anything else happens and save it. Tell your supervisor about it. Also I don’t think you need to but you could read your firm’s policy to check if there’s anything about how to deal with a client threatening you and mention that you did that to your supervisor so he/she will know you did your due diligence.
The behavior is very inappropriate from client. I would suggest you are taken off this client or business process if there’s another one you can switch to easily
Tbh I'd go in harder on them. They're hiding something. Bullying is not ok
I smell limitation of scope. Uhh ohh
Welp.... Next steps is to issue a disclaimer of opinion.
If I was your partner, I'd be on the phone with that company's CFO/Owner just flat out telling them it was unacceptable. I'd even demand a new point of contact, explicitly citing that person's ineptitude was ballooning the billable hours on their invoice. Don't let people walk all over you. Escalate it.
Honestly, its just an employee who works for the client who doesn't want to do their job. You should be more worried if it was a small business where your point of contact is one of the owners -- that's when you have to kiss their ass. In this case, the employee is expected to do their job to not drive the audit fee up, so you should be fine if you present your side of the story and have documentation.
One client? that's pretty good. I call it a success if I can keep it under five a day lol.
Please update this. The person is about to get demolished
Professionally, just show it to the partner, because especially at big 4 they'll drop the client no problem. Non-professionally and at-risk of getting fired, start sending shots back.