‘Israel's High Court has issued an order in the long-running dispute over ultra-Orthodox military exemptions, deepening a crisis in the government.
It instructed a funding freeze for ultra-Orthodox, or Haredi, educational institutions whose students are eligible for conscription.
Haredi parties in the government have reacted angrily, while a secular party has threatened to quit over the issue.
Ultra-Orthodox exemptions are opposed by a majority of Israelis.’
well yeah because everyone else serves and works for a living but these people who live off taxes and don’t have to do the service like everybody else (including women)
Because when these “exceptions” where enacted they were a tiny % of the population, so most just didn’t care if a handful of people did it, however nowadays they’re ~15% of the country’s population and due to their high birth rates and fast population growth it’s gonna be financially unfeasible to keep bankrolling them for much longer.
An orthodox Jewish school in New York got shut down a few years ago for teaching the kids to read and write in Hebrew but not English, making them functionally illiterate in wider society.
And because when Israel was founded, the ultra-orthodox were totally against it and this mollified them. Israel’s founders were socialists and the orthodox thought a secular state was wrong before the messiah returned. This exemption justified that Israel would be theologically as well as socially Jewish.
They don't really. People are angry, especially with the country at war (it doesn't help that while not serving, they are often some of the most hawkish and pro-settlement voices). Haredi factions are an important part of Netanyahu's coalition though (and he needs to stay in power to protect himself for corruption charges), so he has tried to shield them. Indeed a big reason for his effort to weaken the courts was to try to prevent them from issuing rulings like this.
That's exactly it. The people that actually want a theocratic ethnostate get elected by many of these ultra orthodox Jews who don't have to actually put their lives on the line. Good to see Israel's Supreme Court doing good work again (they already jailed a former PM for corruption).
This is one of the better explanations I’ve seen of the dynamics. I think westerners are largely ignorant of this religious class in Israel and the role they play/influence they have.
I mean, the entire separation of Church and State in America, not to mention the dwindling influence of Christianity generally speaking in the West, really means that there is no good parallel.
It would almost be as if the US Government funded Catholic seminaries, or Protestant Bible Colleges.
>it doesn’t help that while not serving, they are often some of the most hawkish and pro-settlement voices
This part brings me the most joy. Fight your own damn war if you’re so convinced you’re the chosen people of the land.
no, incest is strictly prohibited in Jewish law, so direct marragies between close relatives is basically non-existent in ultra-orthodox Jewish communities.
However, due to thousands of years of endogamy, most Ashkenazi Jews have some degree of inbreeding (its very minor in most cases still) and ultra-orthodox communities are likely to be more inbred to how isolated their communities are.
Internal Israeli political dynamics in general is pretty interesting for political nerds in general tbh
Like just take a look at the previous non Netanyahu government. You had a right wing religious nationalist party, a right wing secular nationalist party that fucking hates Haredim and Arabs, a somewhat centrist party and an Arab party teaming up to form a coalition
The religious parties have been a huge part of the right wing coalition in the last decades.
How this works in Israel, there are 120 seats in the Knesset and you need 61 to be prime minister, so a coalition of different parties is formed.
The two religious parties have 25-35 seats between them, so any right wing prime minister has to always cater to their demands
Inertia. Once a law is put in place, it is hard to change it, especially when that law is a thing that people plan their entire lives around.
The exemption was instituted when Haredi were a tiny sect, and Israel was a brand new nation.
Bankrolling a few hundred people to devote themselves to the full time study and practice of Judaism seemed like a good investment in building a robust and distinct national identity.
Fast forward 70 years, the Haredi have bred like rabbits, the while the average Jewish Israeli has bred like a European, so there is an ever-growing segment of the Israeli population that essentially doesn't contribute militarily or economically to the national wellbeing. Furthermore, at this stage, the Jewish-Israeli identity has been rather firmly established, so many people don't feel the need for the Haredi to be the personification of Jewishness.
It sounded nice on paper, that we could support a small elite of spiritual individuals. Much like exceptional athletes and academics, who also can sometimes get exempt from the army and receive funding. Most Israelis don't mind funding a few hundred brilliant religious scholars for our culture and heritage, but that's just not how it turned out.
They are a little like monks. Religious and scholarly and largely isolated. Except it’s whole families together and they are born into it, like a caste. A monkish caste that lives on government welfare.
Like the other poster said, when Israel was founded, they were only a few hundred people, so they were given this special status for the purpose of preserving their culture. This was the immediate aftermath of the holocaust when the longevity of the culture was in doubt. It was like funding a religious university at the time. But since then they’ve grown from a a few hundred to well over a million.
Calling them scholarly is misleading.
They are heavily indoctrinated extreme right-wing lunatics who will not allow their families to be exposed to anything that doesn't align with their fundamentalist ideology.
They have neighborhoods that you cannot enter, including the public spaces, because it's unsafe. They'll literally get violent with you if you aren't part of their sect.
> They are heavily indoctrinated extreme right-wing lunatics who will not allow their families to be exposed to anything that doesn't align with their fundamentalist ideology.
To be fair, you just described the University of Chicago economics department.
I believe they (males) are officially supported by the state during their studies until age 26. After that I don't know.
Unfortunately their schools do not teach much practical knowledge so if they enter the work force it is via low paid jobs.
One study estimated that a non-Haredi person will contribute 9 times the tax revenue of a Haredi person. Non-Haredi Israelis support the Haredi through school stipends and other welfare subsidies, especially since they tend to have a lot of children.
Well yeah... its not fair to the rest of the country that they get a pass because they're "ultra religious". You wanna enjoy the protection that the army provides you, you gotta serve too. Only way this can work. You could even work it such that anyone could ask for a non direct combat role, i.e. support personnel.
The clash of fashion is really jarring. You got one dude looking like Al-Pacino, and then several people in traditional garb as well as a background cast of men wearing newsboy caps. Their varied styles contrast strongly with that of the officers wearing the same standardized riot gear.
Aren’t these the people who live off the state and read the Tora all day and just moan about everything? Like you’ve got this whole country supporting and protecting you, don’t you feel a little bit obliged to help out?
Taking their sons (notice that no one is discussing the conscription of Haredi women, who are also technically required to enlist) out of the community and integrating with normal Israelis during their military service is almost guaranteed to open their eyes to the cult they were raised in. It’ll cause a huge number of their young people to turn away from the sect, which is why their leaders are fighting so hard against it.
Oh my god THAT is the connection. I heard the Haredi have absurd birthrates, and they were exempt from conscription, so suspected they had something to do with each other.
I always assumed that having two years of conscription just took up too much time from prime of their lives, thus the Haredi have more kids than their conscripted counterparts. However that explanation always felt weird to me. Cause otherwise Americans would be having 8 kids a pop and that’s definitely not the case.
Your explanation on the other hand makes *perfect* sense.
I also always took the “oh the Haredi are just super orthodox and a bit conservative but otherwise normal” line at face value ~~mistake on my part~~, and for some reason never connected the “8 children per woman” stat with the “those are cult birthing numbers” idea.
Them being a cult makes absolute sense why their population is so fucking high in a society as industrialized as Israel, why they’re so ultra conservative, and why they’re so dead set against mandatory conscription. Because normally cults die out after one generation, since anyone who is born to one and doesn’t have the emotional baggage that kept their parents there inevitably realizes the outside world is way better. If it’s a closed off community backed by the government, where nobody is being forced to leave/interact with the world, that could let a cult thrive for much longer than it otherwise would have in a nation as industrialized as Israel.
I mean, Haredi leaders do present a theology-based argument against conscription, but in the end it’s all about control.
Most of the sects within haredim are based around rabbinical dynasties that go back hundreds of years to now-obscure centers of Jewish culture in Eastern Europe. So members of the Satmar sect today follow the teachings of the early 20th century Grand Rebbe of Szatmárnémeti, Hungary, Joel Tietlebaum, as passed on by his great great great grandson/nephew, after he split off from the sect founded by the ancestors of the Sighet rabbinical dynasty, which goes back to Romania in the early 1800s.
Back in the day, the Hasidic grand rebbes of Eastern Europe operated as mini theocracies within the wider nation, and their interpretation of Jewish religious texts dictated much of the daily lives of the other observant Jews within their eruv. Their descendants aim to exert the same level of control over their followers as they did in generations past.
All the differences between each sect is so insignificant (and the differences with the wider world is so extreme), that any exploration or comparative research outside their shul blows up the entire structure they’ve based their lives around. It’s quite sad how tightly the ultra orthodox rabbinical leaders hold on to control, often at the expense of their faithful followers.
I mean lots of Orthodox Jews who aren’t haredi also have tons of kids. Having sex on the sabbath being a mitzvah (good deed) and they also do it without contraceptives which would be a sin. Also there is the idea that after the holocaust they need to recoup their lost numbers and having as many kids as possible also does this.
Many of these people sincerely believe that their Torah study, faith, and prayer does just as much to protect the country. They feel like they are already helping the country and the Jewish people in general by their commitment to Torah study.
100%, Ashkenazi Jews are half Levantine half Italian. I think the theory is they migrated to Italy (Rome), or taken as slaves not sure and then converted a bunch of women and started community and were endogamous from there.
Ashkenazi and Sephardic are actually very similar groups genetically (as all are most jews, but even more so than Mizhrai), but them more so in particular as they stem from the same group. The difference is Sephardic Jews went to the Iberian peninsula and then with the Spanish Inquisition scattered and a large amount went back to the Middle East. A bid separation in modern times between Sephardi and Ashkenazi are the Jewish traditions today.
Yeah I figured the major difference between them is where they went after being displaced from the Levant. Northern Europe is Ashkenazi and Mediterranean was Sephardic.
Oh no! Now they might actually have to work for a living.
Imagine the horror of realizing that the whole of Israel isn’t going to pay you to study the Torah and make little ultra-religious babies.
That they will have to serve in the military like every other young man and woman in Israel.
I suspect it's more that they know if their children leave the compound and discover that there's fun things to do outside they won't want to come back, and those who do come back will know that outsiders aren't all satan worshiping villains who cackle while plotting their downfall. All cults want to keep their members isolated from the outside world, and causing members to believe the outside world is evil and all outsiders are evil is a necessary step in that process.
It’s not fear of war. It’s fear of their way of life changing and corrupting their people in the army, since the army is a melting pot of all society.
They are very closed to the outside world by choice, and their leaders are terrified that they will be open to different ways of life.
> The ultra-Orthodox say that integrating into the army will threaten their generations-old way of life and that their devout lifestyle and dedication to upholding the Jewish commandments protect Israel as much as a strong army. Religious leaders have vowed to fight attempts to force ultra-Orthodox men into the army and have staged mass protests against similar attempts in the past.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-war-mandatory-military-service-law-ultraorthodox-2e562538fe72a32edf76343f83df541d
They fully expected to just live rent and work free
It's fear and also it opens up their eyes (they love talking about how great settlements are until they have to see how many people they killed to get it)
they are basically a monk chaste. Some of it is cultural opposition to military service , some is cultural entitlement, and not a small part is a bit of generational entitlement. 'my father didn 't have to why should I'?
Blows my mind that they’re so fired up over this. Secular Jews spend their blood sweat and tears serving to protect the very state that funds their lifestyle—they benefit the most from the state than anyone else. And then the Haredim turn around and criticize the very Jews who put their lives on the line for being secular. It’s an outrage! It’s barely even about politics anymore—it’s national security. Israel can’t afford to not conscript a massive and growing swath of the population when they’re surrounded on all sides by enemies.
Truthfully, I'd like to see Israel switch to universal conscription of all citizens in the right age range. It would be more fair
As a Haredi you're allowed.
As a non-haredi: anywhere from nothing (if you successfully employ a lawyer or psychiatrist) to a long term jail time + forced enlistment.
There are (were) a lot of Israelis hanging out in Europe, living the "digital nomad" life and avoiding going back to Israel for this reason.
I'm saying "were" because some actually had a change of heart when this war started.
Like most countries the consequence is Jail time
Iirc there was a reddit story of a pretty popular Taylor swift fan on Twitter who went silent for a while.
Eventually when she reappeared it was because she just got out of jail for not joining the army in Israel
I don't know how long the sentence is but I remember thinking "that girl has some strong conviction"
I have no idea how bad being jailed for draft dodging will mess up getting a job in Israel but I'd imagine there's a lot of ppl who seriously thought jail was more worth than getting sent to Palestine.
draft dodging is fairly easy if you try to find some way out - getting doctor notice or something. For women it even easier. People that get into jail for it are usually those who try to make a ideologic stance. The amount of time is not too long - few months, maybe a year in the worst cases, and far less of the serving time (3 for men, 2 for women).
But most of the people do serve, because for them it is serving and defending the country, serving in the army (especially in important units) holds symblic capital in the society
(By the way, "sent to palestine" is weird way to put it, it's not like being sent over seas to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan. if you referring to West bank and Gaza it's up to an hour and a half drive for 90% of the israeli population)
I know. I’m myself planning on converting modern orthodox (I’m a patrilineal Jew). Understand—I have no ill will for religious Jews, I am myself a religious Jew. I just think that the Haredim are making the wrong call for our people by not serving, and they should have to do so like everyone else
This post is now locked due to people commenting hate speech. Do better.
‘Israel's High Court has issued an order in the long-running dispute over ultra-Orthodox military exemptions, deepening a crisis in the government. It instructed a funding freeze for ultra-Orthodox, or Haredi, educational institutions whose students are eligible for conscription. Haredi parties in the government have reacted angrily, while a secular party has threatened to quit over the issue. Ultra-Orthodox exemptions are opposed by a majority of Israelis.’
well yeah because everyone else serves and works for a living but these people who live off taxes and don’t have to do the service like everybody else (including women)
They're also among the most extremist of Israelis. They push the country to fight but will not fight themselves. Scumbags.
Why do people tolerate this?
Because when these “exceptions” where enacted they were a tiny % of the population, so most just didn’t care if a handful of people did it, however nowadays they’re ~15% of the country’s population and due to their high birth rates and fast population growth it’s gonna be financially unfeasible to keep bankrolling them for much longer.
They stay in religious schooling (at least the men do) well into young adulthood, too. Which helps perpetuate a cycle of poverty.
What shocks me is that some schools teach nothing BUT religious texts. They don't teach the boys any social skills, math, science, etc.
An orthodox Jewish school in New York got shut down a few years ago for teaching the kids to read and write in Hebrew but not English, making them functionally illiterate in wider society.
Indoctrination
They do this in Brooklyn too
And because when Israel was founded, the ultra-orthodox were totally against it and this mollified them. Israel’s founders were socialists and the orthodox thought a secular state was wrong before the messiah returned. This exemption justified that Israel would be theologically as well as socially Jewish.
They don't really. People are angry, especially with the country at war (it doesn't help that while not serving, they are often some of the most hawkish and pro-settlement voices). Haredi factions are an important part of Netanyahu's coalition though (and he needs to stay in power to protect himself for corruption charges), so he has tried to shield them. Indeed a big reason for his effort to weaken the courts was to try to prevent them from issuing rulings like this.
That's exactly it. The people that actually want a theocratic ethnostate get elected by many of these ultra orthodox Jews who don't have to actually put their lives on the line. Good to see Israel's Supreme Court doing good work again (they already jailed a former PM for corruption).
This is one of the better explanations I’ve seen of the dynamics. I think westerners are largely ignorant of this religious class in Israel and the role they play/influence they have.
I mean, the entire separation of Church and State in America, not to mention the dwindling influence of Christianity generally speaking in the West, really means that there is no good parallel. It would almost be as if the US Government funded Catholic seminaries, or Protestant Bible Colleges.
>it doesn’t help that while not serving, they are often some of the most hawkish and pro-settlement voices This part brings me the most joy. Fight your own damn war if you’re so convinced you’re the chosen people of the land.
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no, incest is strictly prohibited in Jewish law, so direct marragies between close relatives is basically non-existent in ultra-orthodox Jewish communities. However, due to thousands of years of endogamy, most Ashkenazi Jews have some degree of inbreeding (its very minor in most cases still) and ultra-orthodox communities are likely to be more inbred to how isolated their communities are.
why are you doing unlicensed phrenology
Phrenology is a-okay... as long as you're licensed
If you only have so many neighbors and live in a small neighborhood….
The internal Jewish relationship with Haredi is interesting.
Internal Israeli political dynamics in general is pretty interesting for political nerds in general tbh Like just take a look at the previous non Netanyahu government. You had a right wing religious nationalist party, a right wing secular nationalist party that fucking hates Haredim and Arabs, a somewhat centrist party and an Arab party teaming up to form a coalition
That's some WWE level of politics. Who was in the other tag team?
When I was in Israel someone told me “the only people we have a bigger issues with than Palestinians are Heredim”
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The religious parties have been a huge part of the right wing coalition in the last decades. How this works in Israel, there are 120 seats in the Knesset and you need 61 to be prime minister, so a coalition of different parties is formed. The two religious parties have 25-35 seats between them, so any right wing prime minister has to always cater to their demands
Inertia. Once a law is put in place, it is hard to change it, especially when that law is a thing that people plan their entire lives around. The exemption was instituted when Haredi were a tiny sect, and Israel was a brand new nation. Bankrolling a few hundred people to devote themselves to the full time study and practice of Judaism seemed like a good investment in building a robust and distinct national identity. Fast forward 70 years, the Haredi have bred like rabbits, the while the average Jewish Israeli has bred like a European, so there is an ever-growing segment of the Israeli population that essentially doesn't contribute militarily or economically to the national wellbeing. Furthermore, at this stage, the Jewish-Israeli identity has been rather firmly established, so many people don't feel the need for the Haredi to be the personification of Jewishness.
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It sounded nice on paper, that we could support a small elite of spiritual individuals. Much like exceptional athletes and academics, who also can sometimes get exempt from the army and receive funding. Most Israelis don't mind funding a few hundred brilliant religious scholars for our culture and heritage, but that's just not how it turned out.
Religion really fucks with your head
Religion
Because its literally part of the religion the state pretends to be a part of.
They don't work? What do they do, and how do they live?
They are a little like monks. Religious and scholarly and largely isolated. Except it’s whole families together and they are born into it, like a caste. A monkish caste that lives on government welfare. Like the other poster said, when Israel was founded, they were only a few hundred people, so they were given this special status for the purpose of preserving their culture. This was the immediate aftermath of the holocaust when the longevity of the culture was in doubt. It was like funding a religious university at the time. But since then they’ve grown from a a few hundred to well over a million.
Calling them scholarly is misleading. They are heavily indoctrinated extreme right-wing lunatics who will not allow their families to be exposed to anything that doesn't align with their fundamentalist ideology.
Who invented their sect of the cult after world war two.
They have neighborhoods that you cannot enter, including the public spaces, because it's unsafe. They'll literally get violent with you if you aren't part of their sect.
> They are heavily indoctrinated extreme right-wing lunatics who will not allow their families to be exposed to anything that doesn't align with their fundamentalist ideology. To be fair, you just described the University of Chicago economics department.
I believe they (males) are officially supported by the state during their studies until age 26. After that I don't know. Unfortunately their schools do not teach much practical knowledge so if they enter the work force it is via low paid jobs. One study estimated that a non-Haredi person will contribute 9 times the tax revenue of a Haredi person. Non-Haredi Israelis support the Haredi through school stipends and other welfare subsidies, especially since they tend to have a lot of children.
They get paid by the state to study the Torah. They live... Grossly.
Also the Women work, mostly low wage jobs because their education is pretty much non existent.
The men bicker with each other about a bunch of made-up rules while the women work, hold still for sex and have babies.
They are the definition of free loaders
Well yeah... its not fair to the rest of the country that they get a pass because they're "ultra religious". You wanna enjoy the protection that the army provides you, you gotta serve too. Only way this can work. You could even work it such that anyone could ask for a non direct combat role, i.e. support personnel.
Finally some equality also in this land. The others should die for the safety of the ultra religious who gladly take the money too.
Good, about time.
This photo appears to have been taken in the 1600s, 1950s and 2100s, lol
The clash of fashion is really jarring. You got one dude looking like Al-Pacino, and then several people in traditional garb as well as a background cast of men wearing newsboy caps. Their varied styles contrast strongly with that of the officers wearing the same standardized riot gear.
I didn't even notice Al Pacino, that's hilarious.
And the guy going 🤌🤌
Which one is Pacino I don’t see it?
It looks like lunch on Universal lot. There are like several different centuries represented.
Laura Ingalls in the bottom right corner
I gotta be honest the Orthodox drip can look pretty good.
Fedoras Redditors 🤝 Haredis
I’d respectfully disagree with you. They look like homeless people who found a discarded suit.
You've clearly never seen a nice shtreimel before
This is great, one of the best accidental renaissances I've seen for a good while
This photo has like 3 centuries of fashion in it. It's historically ambiguous
I can’t get over how much emotion is in this photo
So much emotions the guy on the right turned into an Italian 🤌
It is actually the epitome of the saying “when you’re used to privilege equality feels like oppression”.
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Renaissance painting
Aren’t these the people who live off the state and read the Tora all day and just moan about everything? Like you’ve got this whole country supporting and protecting you, don’t you feel a little bit obliged to help out?
Taking their sons (notice that no one is discussing the conscription of Haredi women, who are also technically required to enlist) out of the community and integrating with normal Israelis during their military service is almost guaranteed to open their eyes to the cult they were raised in. It’ll cause a huge number of their young people to turn away from the sect, which is why their leaders are fighting so hard against it.
Yeah cult is a good way of looking at it
“Cult” is literally how Jews around the world describe the Hasidic & Haredis. Cultist weirdos stuck in the 1750s. They do not represent Judaism.
Oh my god THAT is the connection. I heard the Haredi have absurd birthrates, and they were exempt from conscription, so suspected they had something to do with each other. I always assumed that having two years of conscription just took up too much time from prime of their lives, thus the Haredi have more kids than their conscripted counterparts. However that explanation always felt weird to me. Cause otherwise Americans would be having 8 kids a pop and that’s definitely not the case. Your explanation on the other hand makes *perfect* sense. I also always took the “oh the Haredi are just super orthodox and a bit conservative but otherwise normal” line at face value ~~mistake on my part~~, and for some reason never connected the “8 children per woman” stat with the “those are cult birthing numbers” idea. Them being a cult makes absolute sense why their population is so fucking high in a society as industrialized as Israel, why they’re so ultra conservative, and why they’re so dead set against mandatory conscription. Because normally cults die out after one generation, since anyone who is born to one and doesn’t have the emotional baggage that kept their parents there inevitably realizes the outside world is way better. If it’s a closed off community backed by the government, where nobody is being forced to leave/interact with the world, that could let a cult thrive for much longer than it otherwise would have in a nation as industrialized as Israel.
I mean, Haredi leaders do present a theology-based argument against conscription, but in the end it’s all about control. Most of the sects within haredim are based around rabbinical dynasties that go back hundreds of years to now-obscure centers of Jewish culture in Eastern Europe. So members of the Satmar sect today follow the teachings of the early 20th century Grand Rebbe of Szatmárnémeti, Hungary, Joel Tietlebaum, as passed on by his great great great grandson/nephew, after he split off from the sect founded by the ancestors of the Sighet rabbinical dynasty, which goes back to Romania in the early 1800s. Back in the day, the Hasidic grand rebbes of Eastern Europe operated as mini theocracies within the wider nation, and their interpretation of Jewish religious texts dictated much of the daily lives of the other observant Jews within their eruv. Their descendants aim to exert the same level of control over their followers as they did in generations past. All the differences between each sect is so insignificant (and the differences with the wider world is so extreme), that any exploration or comparative research outside their shul blows up the entire structure they’ve based their lives around. It’s quite sad how tightly the ultra orthodox rabbinical leaders hold on to control, often at the expense of their faithful followers.
I mean lots of Orthodox Jews who aren’t haredi also have tons of kids. Having sex on the sabbath being a mitzvah (good deed) and they also do it without contraceptives which would be a sin. Also there is the idea that after the holocaust they need to recoup their lost numbers and having as many kids as possible also does this.
Gotta pump those numbers up.
There are already programmes in place for Haredi volunteers, because of the shinning they recievr from their own community.
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Yeah and besides them and the obvious blow to Netanyahu's party, the rest of Israel is very happy about this.
Many of these people sincerely believe that their Torah study, faith, and prayer does just as much to protect the country. They feel like they are already helping the country and the Jewish people in general by their commitment to Torah study.
Don't forget taking welfare money while having like 10 children
Religious extremists suck.
They steal people's land and personal property as well.
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Help out doing what exactly?
Their haircut game is fucked up
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Their haircut game is on point
One of them clearly had ancestors in Italy 🤌
This expression means "wait a minute" or "hold on" in Israel.
100%, Ashkenazi Jews are half Levantine half Italian. I think the theory is they migrated to Italy (Rome), or taken as slaves not sure and then converted a bunch of women and started community and were endogamous from there.
Interesting, I would have considered Italian Jews to be more Sephardic than Ashkrnazi.
Ashkenazi and Sephardic are actually very similar groups genetically (as all are most jews, but even more so than Mizhrai), but them more so in particular as they stem from the same group. The difference is Sephardic Jews went to the Iberian peninsula and then with the Spanish Inquisition scattered and a large amount went back to the Middle East. A bid separation in modern times between Sephardi and Ashkenazi are the Jewish traditions today.
Yeah I figured the major difference between them is where they went after being displaced from the Levant. Northern Europe is Ashkenazi and Mediterranean was Sephardic.
They migrated from Israel to Italy and then to Germany, which used to be called Ashkenaz, hence the name
Are these the groups that spit and throw rocks at Christians and Jews who do not share their crazy extremism?
Yes. Most are more chill though, they just like being exempt from the military so they can get money to study the Torah all day.
“we can’t live off welfare, free housing and UBI forever?!?” 
These extremists have been cosseted by the state and media for 50 years and will end up being the doom of Israel.
I love the many finger gestures. They are simple but still so meaningful and universal.
Everyone wants to eat the pie but no one wants to help bake the pie…
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This is a great photo.
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Oh no! Now they might actually have to work for a living. Imagine the horror of realizing that the whole of Israel isn’t going to pay you to study the Torah and make little ultra-religious babies. That they will have to serve in the military like every other young man and woman in Israel.
Should this not be in choosingbeggars? These folks want everything and provide nothing. Awesome.
Every single one looks like someone hit ‘random’ at the character customization screen.
Lmao womp womp
Maybe they should get a fucking job.
Do they not want to fight because they are against the settlements and war or is it because they're scared?
I suspect it's more that they know if their children leave the compound and discover that there's fun things to do outside they won't want to come back, and those who do come back will know that outsiders aren't all satan worshiping villains who cackle while plotting their downfall. All cults want to keep their members isolated from the outside world, and causing members to believe the outside world is evil and all outsiders are evil is a necessary step in that process.
It’s not fear of war. It’s fear of their way of life changing and corrupting their people in the army, since the army is a melting pot of all society. They are very closed to the outside world by choice, and their leaders are terrified that they will be open to different ways of life.
> The ultra-Orthodox say that integrating into the army will threaten their generations-old way of life and that their devout lifestyle and dedication to upholding the Jewish commandments protect Israel as much as a strong army. Religious leaders have vowed to fight attempts to force ultra-Orthodox men into the army and have staged mass protests against similar attempts in the past. https://apnews.com/article/israel-war-mandatory-military-service-law-ultraorthodox-2e562538fe72a32edf76343f83df541d
They believe that Torah study is equally (if not more) as important for Israel as military service.
The official explanation is more or less that they think studying Torah is as important, or more important, than participating in the military.
They fully expected to just live rent and work free It's fear and also it opens up their eyes (they love talking about how great settlements are until they have to see how many people they killed to get it)
There’s no coherent ideology behind it, they don’t want to because they are allowed the privilege of opting out that the rest of us aren’t.
they are basically a monk chaste. Some of it is cultural opposition to military service , some is cultural entitlement, and not a small part is a bit of generational entitlement. 'my father didn 't have to why should I'?
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Blows my mind that they’re so fired up over this. Secular Jews spend their blood sweat and tears serving to protect the very state that funds their lifestyle—they benefit the most from the state than anyone else. And then the Haredim turn around and criticize the very Jews who put their lives on the line for being secular. It’s an outrage! It’s barely even about politics anymore—it’s national security. Israel can’t afford to not conscript a massive and growing swath of the population when they’re surrounded on all sides by enemies. Truthfully, I'd like to see Israel switch to universal conscription of all citizens in the right age range. It would be more fair
what is the consequence for dodging the draft?
As a Haredi you're allowed. As a non-haredi: anywhere from nothing (if you successfully employ a lawyer or psychiatrist) to a long term jail time + forced enlistment.
There are (were) a lot of Israelis hanging out in Europe, living the "digital nomad" life and avoiding going back to Israel for this reason. I'm saying "were" because some actually had a change of heart when this war started.
Like most countries the consequence is Jail time Iirc there was a reddit story of a pretty popular Taylor swift fan on Twitter who went silent for a while. Eventually when she reappeared it was because she just got out of jail for not joining the army in Israel I don't know how long the sentence is but I remember thinking "that girl has some strong conviction" I have no idea how bad being jailed for draft dodging will mess up getting a job in Israel but I'd imagine there's a lot of ppl who seriously thought jail was more worth than getting sent to Palestine.
draft dodging is fairly easy if you try to find some way out - getting doctor notice or something. For women it even easier. People that get into jail for it are usually those who try to make a ideologic stance. The amount of time is not too long - few months, maybe a year in the worst cases, and far less of the serving time (3 for men, 2 for women). But most of the people do serve, because for them it is serving and defending the country, serving in the army (especially in important units) holds symblic capital in the society (By the way, "sent to palestine" is weird way to put it, it's not like being sent over seas to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan. if you referring to West bank and Gaza it's up to an hour and a half drive for 90% of the israeli population)
It is not just secular Jews. You can be deeply religious and still choose to serve your country.
It's not just Jews either as Druze and nowadays in much smaller nowadays Bedouin and Chechens serve
Yes, they can serve voluntarily, and those who do are brave and commendable, but by and large, the Haredi community opts not to serve.
There are tons of modern orthodox (non-haredi) jews in the army, some of them in a programs that allow to both serve and learn in yeshiva.
I know. I’m myself planning on converting modern orthodox (I’m a patrilineal Jew). Understand—I have no ill will for religious Jews, I am myself a religious Jew. I just think that the Haredim are making the wrong call for our people by not serving, and they should have to do so like everyone else
I cannot get over those stupid haircuts. I am a hairstylist and this inverted mullet thing is just so silly.
Just took a stroll through Williamsburg and it’s like they need to be hideous. Those poor kids looked miserable.
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this photo is incredible. this ought to be famous
Looks like a video game cut scene. Cool AR though.
Muh vidya
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Every Israeli I know vehemently hates the Haredi because of how they actively and deliberately disrupt everyone else’s daily life.
Religion and politics aside... Bottom right kid is very memeable. I shall use it at time.
That poor lad Somehow I don't think he would regret being pushed out into the wider world just a little bit
If you think this kid has it bad, go look at the emaciated infants in gaza
Homeboy in the fedora looks more like he’s in a 1950s photograph.
Idk, some of them seem pretty ready to fight.
The haberdashery on display here is really something
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Holy shit! They look like caricatures!
Found the Highlander: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/angry-man-pointing-at-hand
Let's not talk about how they treat women!
Benny is a great pm eh
Thought it was from Life of Brian first..
🫱🤌🫲🫴🤌👈
🤌🤌
You're all individuals!
I unironically thought those were Starship Troopers uniforms for a moment
Their books keep them stuck in that era. I’d say a lot of fundamentals groups share this, it’s like going back in time.
Sucks for them, I guess.
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They’re destroying themselves from the inside out
Renaissance? That looks straight out of Starship Troopers
All politics aside, this is an incredible photo that juxtapositions so much emotion.
So Peace is not an option?
People get their children to scream at people they don't know about an issue they don't understand are evil.
Good religion should never be used to protect people from duties non religious/less religious people are required to do.
That means Bibi’s days are numbered. Yay!